The Dale Jr. Download - Deb Williams: Hollywood with Burt Reynolds & History with Earnhardt

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Dale Earnhardt Jr. takes a look into yesteryear of NASCAR as he sits down with prolific journalist Deb Williams. On the heels of winning the prestigious Squier-Hall Media Excellence Award, Deb continues to be a trailblazer in stock car racing, working the NASCAR beat year-round. She talks about growing up in a racing family, covering several breaking news stories outside of racing, and how she broke past the "no women in pits" barrier.Since picking up her first media credential in 1980, Deb has witnessed a large array of changes to the sport, as well as milestones such as Richard Petty’s 200th win. Aside from her fascinating backstory, Dale and Deb discuss the state of the sport today, including the ongoing 23XI/NASCAR lawsuit, proposed changes to the Playoffs format, and criticism of the Next Gen car. And for more content check out our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMediaDirty Mo Media is launching a new e-commerce merch line! They’ve got some awesome Dale Jr. Download merch on the site. Visit shop.dirtymomedia.com to check out all the new stuffFanDuel: Must be 21+ and present in select states (for Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino) or 18+ and present in D.C. First online real money wager only. $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable bonus bets which expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit GamblingHelpLineMA.org or call [phone] for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8HOPE-NY or text HOPENY in New York.Consumer Cellular: New customers get a $5 credit on first five monthly invoices. Visit ConsumerCellular.com/DJD for details. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Your first time being able to pick up a media credential was it Darlington, and there was on the credential it said no women allowed. Yeah. Jay Wells was the PR person for Harry Gantz, and when I got in the press box and I saw him and that was on my press pass, I chewed him out. The following is a production of Dirty Mo Media. All right, everybody, it's Dale Jr. here at the Dale Jr. Download. And this week's guest is Deb Williams. Deb Williams has worked in NASCAR for decades. And just recently, she won the, let's see here.

I want to make sure I get this right. The Squire Hall Award. And that is an award, obviously named after Ken Squire, given to a journalist or someone in the media who's outstanding in their field. That was a special announcement made at Darlington. She's also the two-time recipient of the National Motorsports Press Association George Cunningham, writer of the Year Award. She's a two-time winner of the Miller Motorsports Award of Excellence.

The first female reporter inducted into the National Motorsports Press Association Hall of Fame. She's going to have some stories. So I'm excited to talk to Deb. She's helped us out on a lot of projects. You might have heard her on the last season of becoming Earnhardt. But either way, this will be a lot of fun seeing what kind of cool stories she's got to tell us. Let's bring her in the room, Deb Williams on the Dale Jr. Download. So, Deb Williams, I've been looking forward to this conversation.

So I guess my first question for you is, when did you first start working in racing? I first started working as reporter racing in the 1970s during the summer when I was working for the newspaper in Waynesville, North Carolina. And I would cover the weekly races on Friday night at the 3rd Mile Asheville Track. Asheville Weaver. Well, no. Ashville River was, that was New Asheville Speedway. New Asheville up in... On Lamboy Road down by the river where Jack Ingram had his shop. And so I was over there with Jack Ingram and Harry Gant and Bob Presley.

My gosh. Yeah. Did you live in that area? I did. I grew up in Canton, North Carolina. Okay. All right. So, all right.

So you start, your racing career in racing, I guess, started around that time. But, all right, so now that I know that, I kind of want to dial back. Okay. Your family had you around racing as a child, though. You went to, you were at Asheville Weaver Speedway as a baby. Yes. In fact, they were going when the mother was pregnant with me to the races. They were just fans?

Well, Daddy was a machinist in the paper mill there. And I always loved cars. And basically, there were two things that mattered in that area, cars and football. And my cousin, who was in high school with Bosco Lowe, they started the asphalt gladiators, which was the group of teenagers that were into cars, and they were there to educate people about cars and car maintenance. And if somebody was stranded on the road, they would help them. And they were also the ones that put on the car show every Labor Day. Car show. Yeah.

Well, it's like just hot rods or just anything? Anything you want to just pull out? Yeah, yeah, you know, candy apple reds, cars and all. And my cousin actually went on and one top ride in the nation in 1972. He had a roadster that he had fixed and detailed and its name was Sweet Thing. My gosh. So the only place mother and daddy could get me to quit crying and sleep until I was year old was under the loudspeaker in the infield at Asheville-Weaverville when it was dirt.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go to racetracks around the area with your dad. When did you start to remember, what's your earliest memory of being around a racetrack or around race cars? About four years old. I remember sitting on either, it was either the hood or the trunk of the car, birth turns one and two at Asheville, Weaverville, when it was dirt. Yeah. And then in the late 50s, like 58, 59, 4 or 5 years old, was when Franklin Hill to Presley.

He fielded a car for Ralph Earnhardt, grandfather. And Frank and Hill had been in high school with my parents. And, you know, Presley's garage at the foot of the Canton Hill was a place to go. And when Frank was working on cars in the body shop during the day, he would roll Ralph's race car out front. And that's the first race car I ever touched. What did it look like? Oh, well, it just, I don't. I just remember it wasn't brightly painted.

It had a number on it, and it had been beat up a little bit. And I just put my hands up on the passenger side and pulled myself up and looked inside of it and bare minimums, you know. Sure. Nothing fancy. And then what was really cool was when one year, one summer, the Asheville tourist didn't come to Asheville to play minor league baseball. and they turned the baseball park into a racetrack, and the flagstand was at home plate. And I believe that was when Ralph put Dickie Plymouthins in the dugout.

Right, that picture, that famous photo. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've seen that picture a hundred thousand times, and I had no idea forever what the story was behind it. Yeah. But it wasn't uncommon for them to race at a baseball fields. No. That's this thing so strange to me.

I can't even visualize what it would look like to see some coops running around the, you know, the outer stretches of the, I guess they would run way out by the wall. I mean, right? Out to the infield. Yeah. They would, the flagstand, like I said, was at home play. And then they would come down and go by the dugout at near first base and going out in the outfield. How did it not? destroy this ballpark?

Not run it up and I guess. Well, back then, everybody would just, oh, I want to build a racetrack and they'd get their bulldozers out and, you know, build one. I can remember one down on Jonathan Creek in Haywood County. Ran one summer and somebody just carved out a round circle in the field and put up clapboard fence and charged admission for it. And it ran one summer. That was it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, back then, you'd go by. service stations and just about everybody had, you know, every service station had a race car in the bay that ran a hobby car or something. Local. Yeah, local track.

Yeah, there's a lot of, I've done a, me and Matthew Dillner, coincidentally had a very fond passion for documenting locations of some of these ghost tracks and stuff. And there's racetracks hidden in all the woods throughout North Carolina, you know, that to your point that probably aren't even documented, really, that ran just one summer or ran one or two years and then disappeared into the landscape. My house is actually built on an old Speedway. Where? Concord.

Really? Yeah. The original Concord? It's the one that started out, I think, is Harris Speedway, and it became Concord, and it's where they ran until the late 70s when the furs built the one down on 6-0-1 south. Right. But, yeah, my house sits on part of the old first turn. and my street runs through the what was the infield.

And if you go behind the houses across the street from me and look, you can see the outlines of the backstretch. Really? If you know it, yeah. If you know what you're looking at. Yeah. That's the stuff that I love is like we used to, I tell this story sometimes, but one of my favorite memories I went out with dad to what I think was the last race at Riverside.

And during the weekend, it was like Friday or Saturday after practice. we rode by the location of the old Ontario Speedway. This was in late 80s. And dad's like, yep, there it is. And I'm looking at it. And it's just a bare field partially developed. And he's like, that bank right there is turn three. And I'm like, oh, damn.

You know, now I can kind of see it. Yeah. And, you know, so that stuff, seeing that stuff and knowing that stuff still exists, there's a, there's a strip in Daytona that's probably only a block. long of the original paved road of the beach course. That's still, it's all original and there was these two houses. So if you look at this old photo, it's an aerial of the original beach course taken from what would be the north turn side.

Way down, midway down that paved road on the paved side is two houses. They're the only two houses, the first two houses that got built out there. And they were built by one of the racers that ran bikes, motorcross or whatever you would call it back then. But it wasn't one of the stock car drivers. But it was a well-to-do biker or a motocross racer or whatever. Because they used to race bikes out there too. And he built these two houses. And one of the houses is still there.

And it's on that little strip of road. and I think having him, him having, you know, coincidentally built those houses is what allowed that road, that little strip of road that's the only part left of the original paved part of the beach course to survive. That kind of stuff really is fascinating to me. Well, what's really cool is one of my neighbors, there's a bank behind his house. And that's where the grandstand was. He doesn't know it. And it's not as, it's not as high as it was. was when I first moved there, but one of my neighbors was over the water sewer for Concord

and then Cabarras County. And he got me a plat of the old racetrack, and it was one day when they were having a race. It's an aerial photo. And then he got it to mark off to where you can see where your houses were in relation to the track. So it's really cool. That is pretty cool. Yeah.

I bet. Now, I know there's been a lot of dirt turned over around that area since those days, but I bet somewhere down in the earth there's some stuff to be found, some metal detecting to do. But anyways, you know, when you were young, your family's going to the racetrack,

you know, you were a teenager, you began attending races like Daytona, Rockingham, Charlotte. Talk to me about, like, this is when, you know, NASCAR and stock car racing was very young. You know, it wasn't a, it wasn't a popular,

you know, iconic sport that it is today. How did you get, how did you get drawn to it? What was it like, I suppose, being on the front end of something that would now, you know, become one of the biggest sports in the nation? How was it, what was it like to kind of be there? My, if, you know, if time travel, it existed, my favorite thing that I think I would love to do is to, is to go to the garage in, you know, pick a year, 74, 7,000.

somewhere in the 70s and walk around in the garage on a Saturday or a Friday and just watch, you know, people work and watch the drivers do what they do and people just, because it would have been, it wouldn't have been nothing like it is today. You know, probably been nobody there other than the people that were necessary. And so, I mean, I imagine it was even more stripped down, you know, in those early days in the 60s. It was. And the interesting thing about it was, you know, it really wasn't a place for. a child. Right. But daddy, and there were no restrooms, you know, it was outside toilets type thing. What do you mean? Well, you know, if they had anything in the infield, it was a concrete building and just like an outside toilet. Yeah. And so daddy would say, okay, go to the bathroom before you leave the house because you can't go again until you get back because there's nowhere for you to go at the racetrack. And so he decided that when I was 10, he would try me at

Bristol. Bristol was two hours away. And mother would go with us. And he would see how I did there at Bristol. So I wasn't allowed to go to a Super Speedway until I was 13. And he decided when I was 13, then I could take care of myself at the Super Speedways. But that was the only family vacation we ever went on. We went to Daytona that July for the Firecracker 400. What year? Uh, 1967. Damn. And, um, started at 10 in the morning. And then, uh, that was also the year we went to Martinsville. We made it a weekend. Mother, Daddy and I went up the Blue Ridge Parkway to Mount Air. He spent the night in Mount Air and then went over to Martinsville the next day. And go to Rock and Ham and see Daddy worked in the mill. So he had to be at work at seven in the

morning. And Charlotte was three-hour drive. Rockingham was four-hour drive. And I can remember one time the three of us drove to Rockingham, sat outside the first turn while it rained until they called the race and then turned around and drove four hours back. But they happened to have it rescheduled on the week of the state football playoffs. So Daddy and I went to the state football playoffs and then spent the night with my sister

and brother-in-law and Raleigh, and then went Rockingham and then swung back home. But the first time I ever saw Charlotte Motor Speedway, I was 13, and I fell in love with the area and promised myself that day that I would once live in the area and work in stock car racing. What was different about that area versus where you grew up? Just being close to the industry? Industry. Really?

Yeah, because, you know, I had a first cousin that lived in Charlotte, and it was known as the stock car racing captain. capital of the world then, and Holman and Moody was here. You heard about Holman and Moody all the time. I know, but you're a child. What do you, I mean, I have a sister that's 11 years older than me. Yeah, all right. But I just, I was a daddy's girl. I grew up around car garages and racetracks and horse shows and football fields and, you know, but it was, it was funny. It was, I mean, he had me sitting on a car helping him wax the car as soon as I was old enough to hold a rag. and wipe the cleaner and all off of it. So it was just very intriguing to me. It was exciting.

You know, I like the excitement, the adrenaline rush, the noise. I mean, everything about it. I just loved it. What were some of the drivers, I think, I'd be curious to know, what were some of the drivers that were fascinating to you then? It was interesting because throughout our family, on mother's side of the family,

everybody had different drivers. I had a cousin that was a Fireball Roberts fan. I initially was a Rex White fan. And then I became, I paid more attention. There was Ned Jared. I thought his nickname of Gentleman Ned was interesting. And then Curtis Turner was viewed as the bad boy in the family. But then probably when I was about 12 or 13 was when I became a Richard Petty fan and stayed a Richard Petty fan throughout my high school years and all. And I had a Plymouth Racing jacket that I wore a junior high that got stolen out of my locker one day. Oh, damn.

I got it back. How did you find out? It was a fellow I ended up dating later on that took it. Holy crap. But they were just teasing me, you know. And it was funny, the civics teetting. was a big race fan in the ninth grade too. And so when it was announced that Richard Petty was going to Ford in 1969,

he had said he had study hall first period and he had sat in his classroom. His father was actually a state senator. And he had sat in his classroom and he drew cartoons of Richard Petty going to Ford and had put, he knew where my locker was. And when I went to my locker for locker break and I opened up my door, there were all those. cartoons he had drawn, pasted on my locker door. And then we had physical science in the ninth grade. And Mr. McFall was the teacher.

And the day we took our final exam, he had the ND-500 on the radio. We were taking our final exam. But we had the thing that stands out, in addition to that, that year, it's funny to look back on it now. But we had a chapter on internal combustion engines. And I had the highest score in the class on the table. on the internal combustion engine test and all the guys got mad.

That was a big deal for a guy like Richard Petty to announce his moving from one manufacturer to another. We've kind of gone away from how that would affect people. So it would be so impactful, you know, to fans because the loyalty to the brand or the manufacturer back then was a big deal, you know, that factory support. You graduated, I guess, you worked as a sports editor at the Mountaineer in Waynesville, North Carolina. After graduation, you went and took a position at the United Press International.

Well, actually, that was after college. And I went back to Waynesville and was the sports editor and the court and law enforcement reporter at the Waynesville paper when I went to United Press International. What is United Press International? Well, at that time, there were two international wire services. They were their Associated Press and United Press International. And they serviced the newspapers, radio, and TV stations. And that's what I tell people now is the Internet is just a wire service that goes into everybody's home. You know, whereas before the wire service was the papers, radio, TV stations would pay to get that wire service.

And that's how they would get their. national and international news while they focused on their local news. Yeah. And we had state bureaus, and we were located as a regional, our regional headquarters was Atlanta. Our company headquarters was New York. We had foreign bureaus, and it was crazy. You had a message wire for the entire company, and you always had to say when you were

shutting down or opening, and one day I was working, and there was a message came across the wire from the Beirut Bureau, and it said shutting down. getting bombed. So you were just right on the edge of everything. Man, you got to interview Bert Reynolds. I did. Yeah. That was when they were filming Stroker Race. Really? Yeah. And they were at Charlotte Motor Speedway filming that day. Great movie. Yeah. I liked it. I loved your dad, racing gurneys. Yeah. I know. It really didn't seem like a movie because you knew so many people that were in it, you know? And you know the big contract that he had in there? That's a spoof on the Darrell Walship DiGuard contract.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's what that's a good phone. So I think if, you know, people, people can be, I don't know that people are that critical of Struck Race these days because it's, you know, it's from the 80s, but people have got, there was a little churned up mud from some opinions, rough opinions about Talladeganites, but I look at Strucker race. So Strucker Race, to me, I know that it's a comedy.

Right? Exactly. And Bert, you've got to know that it's a comedy and know that it's going to have goofy things going on in it when you get up to watch it. But it's a really, really funny movie. And it would be probably pretty awesome to watch it with somebody like yourself. Because I bet you would see, much like that contract, a lot of things in there that are connected to the true life of what NASCAR was back in those days. Whereas, like, you know, with, you know, like the same. way that Days of Thunder is very tailored toward Tim Richmond, Rick Hendrick, and that sort of

storyline. I bet there's a lot of funny things in there. Struck Race is a lot of fun. I also like six-pack. I thought six-pack was a good movie. And you know what? Six-pack's kind of based on, loosely based on, was when Walter Ballard had Joy Knuckles and all those as kids.

Yeah. And they, you know, they were out at Riverside and Bill Gazzaway said, well, just stay under the car because you're not of legal age. to be in the garage. Yeah. That's very loosely based on, yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. I love both of those movies. So when you got to interview Bert about, I guess you were asking him about the movie, being a part of the movie. He's coming off of, let's see, he's coming off of Smoking the Bandit and Cannonball Run and all these great. You know, he's a big deal. Yeah. What was that like, I suppose, for the sport of the industry, I guess, to have somebody of Bert, I know the connection with Howe Needham and the 33 car and all of that.

And Bert was a part owner in that deal. His name on the sea post of that car that Harry Gint drove in 81, 82. But what was it like, I guess, for the sport, the industry, the buzz, to have Bert Reynolds and them making a movie? It was a very, it brought attention, you know, a different group of people, and it brought that Hollywood magic. And I was giving like 20 minutes with him. That was all I had, 20 minutes during a lunch break. And it was like, so I went back to when I first started where I would write my questions down in the back of my notebook so that I'd make sure I ask everything. And he was very nice, very polite.

And, you know, he talked about how he was impressed by the people in the sport and their hard work ethic and everything. And so, yeah, it brought a magic, I would say, to the sport. It created a lot of eyes on it that people had not paid really attention to it before. It put a little glamour in the sport is what it did. Yeah. A lot of things that happened in that movie that are very relatable. Yeah, and Days of Thunder, I can pretty much pinpoint to you where all it happened. Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, like where they're eating ice cream, says, don't pit, we're eating ice cream.

That was at Darlington, when Benny Parsons was in the car and Harry Hyde was crew chief. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. When do you feel like, you know, you got your first kind of big break, I guess, to get involved in NASCAR, to start doing NASCAR full time? Well, UPI was really what gave me the foot in the door because United Press International. Yeah, yeah. You know, because like I said, back then there were two wire services going head to head against each other, the Associated Press and United Press International. And people knew that if they got you to write a story on them, it was going to go to all the newspapers, radio and TV stations.

You gave them outlets they didn't have through a lot of things. And that was also when I got to cover more big stories in the six years I was with the UPI than probably a lot of people get to cover in a career. But that gave me the door. That opened the door for me. Were you covering other things other than sports? Yes. Yeah.

Was there ever a story that you covered that really left an impact on you outside of NASCAR, outside of motorsports? A couple of them, really. The deployment of the 80-second to Grenada. I was at Fort Bragg for that deployment. And the Dr. Jeffrey McDonnell trial, which was what the movie in the book Fatal Vision was based on. Those two, you know, and you were always,

we were on call 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. So you might, there was one time I covered four stories in three cities and 48 hours. And, you know, but still at the top of the list was covering Richard Petty's 200th win for UPI. So your first time being able to pick up a media credential was at Darlington and there was it on the credential it said no women allowed. Yeah.

That was Labor Day, 1980. 1980. Yeah, no women allowed in pits. Yeah. And you were an exception. Well, I didn't really need to go in the pits that day. day, but it was interesting because Jay Wells was helping out at, Jay Wells was the PR person for Harry Gant for many years on smoking, I mean, in the U.S. tobacco.

And he was PR at Rockingham at that time, but he was down at Darlington that year helping Bill Kaiser, who was running PR at Darlington. And he was in the press box. And when I got in the press box and I saw him and that was on my press pass, I chewed him out. And he's up there going, we're not talking about women like you. We're not talking about women like you. You shoot him out. Yeah.

Really? Yeah. And so the next time I went back, it wasn't on the pre. No. No. I hear you. You know, how do you feel like, you know, NASCAR has certainly had an evolution over the last, over my time around the sport. And if I look at, you know, if I really look back into the 60s and.

and 70s, that evolution has just always been constant. You know, what's, I guess, what's that been like for you as a female to see the sport sort of adjust and shift away from, you know, some of those policies that just didn't make sense, such as just like having that on the pit pass is pretty, pretty, feels ridiculous today, but there was a time when, like, someone might look at that and not bad an eye, right? But today it sounds silly. Yeah. Well, it's just like women weren't allowed on pit road, you know, at Indianapolis.

Wow. And back in the 50s and all. But, you know, it was when corporate America started coming into the sport that it started to change because you had women executives in corporate America. and I just don't, I look at a lot of these young people coming along now that didn't have the, to deal with some of the things that my generation dealt with. And I just look at them and think, I wish you could understand so that you could be more appreciative of the changes that have occurred. Yeah. You know, because they take everything for granted.

Sure. And it's just like when I started covering at Darlington, there was one bathroom in the press box. Yeah. There was one bathroom at Rockingham. Martinsville didn't even have bathrooms in the press box. And the first track that had men and women's bathrooms in the press box was North Wilkesboro, which I have always found amusing. Yeah.

But Clay Earls, and he was, I just say. he was so cute because he had to be in his 80s. And it wasn't the current press box. It was the previous press box at Mortonsville. He comes to me and he says, I'm thinking about building some bathrooms here in the press box. And he said, but, you know, there's not enough women. I really can't afford to have a men and a women's.

I can have to. But do you have a problem with using the same bathroom that the men use? I said, Clay, as long as you put a lock on the door, I'm fine. I said, we all travel together. We're all at the same hotels. We're like brothers and sisters anyway. But I said, as long as you have, and you could tell he was very embarrassed. Yeah, for yourself.

But you could tell he was very embarrassed about having to ask me about it. Oh, yeah. But, yeah, I told him, I said, as long as you have a lock on it, that's fine. What, you knew a lot of the driver's wives in the garage. You know, what was your relationship? ship, I suppose, like with them? And who were some of the wives that you kind of got along with the best? Linda Patty and I got really close.

Yeah. And Linda was the one that helped me the most and made the wives feel comfortable with me that I wasn't there looking for a husband or looking for a boyfriend or anything like that. And it was my first speed weeks. My first speed weeks was 1984. and I was doing a story on Stephanie Brooks, who was Dick Brooks's wife at the time. And that was when the Winston Cup Racing Wives Auxiliary had the annual fashion show across the street at Burdines at the Volusia Mall. Good Lord.

And Linda Petty was the president of the auxiliary at that time. And when I went over there to interview Stephanie Brooks, and Linda was introducing me, and Linda Petty goes, I've known Debbie since she was just this high and it was like okay Linda Petty has given her endorsement she's okay you know and that was that was one thing

that I really enjoyed and we also ran when I was it what became probably better known as NASCAR Winston Cup scene but when Griggs publishing still owned it and it was Winston Cup scene when Tide came into the the sport is a sponsor, we had a feature that they sponsored once a month called

Women in Racing. And that's when I really got to know a lot of the wives and all. And then the wives felt like they could come and talk to me about things and tell me things if they felt their husbands were being treated unjustly. Really? Mm-hmm. Wow. I mean, did that ever happen?

Well, I mean, Judy Parrott, who was Buddy Parrott's wife, Judy told me. about one time they had complained about wanting a grandstand for the family at some track. Yeah. And she said, buddy came home and said, Judy, please don't say anything again. We had trouble getting through inspection this week. And, you know, when Carolyn Rudd started handling sponsors and stuff for Ricky, she couldn't get into the garage. She was signing contracts through the fence. Damn. So, yeah, it was interesting listening to their stories.

And I know Darrell wanted Stevie to do his gas mileage. Yeah. And so what they did, they thought, would keep her out of the pits. They made her get a crew license, and they thought, well, if we take one license away from the crew, one of the crew members, then they won't want her in there. They'll want to put it back on a crew member. But, yeah, I know that Linda Rudd, Ricky's wife, told me one time about a gate guard, not going to let her into the garage. And she had Ricky's water and wet towels.

And she just took the ice water and threw it on the gate guard and kept going. But she went to Humphie then and told Humphie Wheeler what had happened. She said, you know, I never saw that gate guard again. Yeah. But, yeah, I saw a gateguard push patty petty at Daytona. Damn. Kyle's wife. Yeah.

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You talked about covering Richards 200, when I was there that day, lucky, I remember the big tent after the race and the president, Ronald Reagan. I remember everybody eating KFC chick out of a box. And I remember dad, so usually, you know, you had to be ready to go when the race was over. Dad was going to be moving. And you had to be where you were supposed to be. But this particular day, Dad had a whole different disposition. and the race was over.

It hadn't been a very great race for Dad, but his clothes changed, gets kind of somewhat cleaned up, and he's like, all, we're going to go over this tent, we're all going to eat, we're going to sit down,

the president's going to be there. And we were one row or one table away, probably 15 feet from Ronald Reagan. And while he and Richard and, and I think Bobby Allison and a couple of other people sat around and I mean it must have been 90 felt like I mean this is like all kind of a blur but it must have been like a hundred people under this tent yeah eaten in big long tables you know like a picnic um what do you remember from from that particular day and covering that well first it started out there were secret service at the gates and we didn't have the fancy laptops and all that we have now I had a TL TSR Model 100 called Trash 80 from Radio Shack was what I was using. And the secret service... Word processor?

It didn't even process words. What was it? Just the typewriter or something? Well, it was electronic. You could send stuff over the telephone lines. Back then, we were having the water, when you had the really bad rainstorms at Daytona, water would get in the photo lines, I mean, the telephone lines. and you'd have to call the operator and say,

I need a clear line for a data transmission. Oh. But you couldn't store a lot in there. You could store a few stories. And as it was sending, it would be running across this little bitty screen. I mean, it would fit about right here. But the Secret Service agent went around to see if I had opened it and it had been put back together.

And they actually stationed a Secret Service agent in the press box with us because, you know, that was before Daytona was redone. Yeah. And you had a clear view down through all the suites with the windows and everything. And, you know, this was going to be the first time a sitting president had ever attended a NASCAR race. And President Reagan gave the command to start engines from Air Force One. He was en route. And then seeing Air Force One land at the Daytona Airport as the call.

Cars are racing on the track was just a gorgeous side. It was just a beautiful side. I've actually got a large photo that I've had in my office for a long time of Richard Petty coming off turn two with Air Force One landing. And then it wasn't taboo to ask for drivers' autographs in the press box. And I guess maybe it was because it was a special win for Richard. But Richard sat in that press box after he did his post. Mr. Race interview, and every media member who wanted the rundown because they handed everything out in papers then, you know, there was no electronics, no cell phones, none of that.

He signed everybody's rundown that wanted the rundown signed. Yeah. And then he left to go to the picnic that you're talking about. And they had told us, they said, you know, the media's invited to the picnic. And it was kind of like, well, we're all kind of riding on deadline. There's no way we're going to get down there. didn't get down there. Damn it.

No, didn't get down there. Yeah. We were watching through binoculars. I bet. Yeah. It was pretty neat. I'd barely, barely remember that.

But, I mean, I must have been 10 years old, 9 years old. You've had a lot of different jobs working in NASCAR. Worked it with inside NASCAR as a reporter and writer. Worked with Griggs publishing, manager and editor of GT Motorsports. You covered freelance writer for USA Today, the Associated Press, Winston Cup scene that you mentioned. You were an editor there for 10 years, worked at that place for 18 years. Then you went to PR.

Yeah. So the PR's on the other side of the fence. It is. Now you're, you went from covering the sport to actually, you know, working with, you. your coworkers to cover, to support and represent your drivers. You know, did that go easily, smoothly? Was it... I learned a lot.

Learned a lot. Let me hear. I mean, I've seen this sport from so many different perspectives that I thought I'd never see it from, like in the broadcast booth and car owner and different things like that. And it's really, really amazing. What all is happening that I had no idea or appreciated when I was driving. You're exactly right. And the first thing that really caught my attention when I went to work for Penske was the driver's schedules. I had no idea. They were so jam-packed. And that was when NASCAR would have PR meetings with all the team PR reps in Daytona. The first thing I did that year was I stood up and apologized to all the PR reps for not asking to schedule interviews far enough ahead of time because I just didn't understand their world.

You know, I had never worked in it because racing, you were talking about it changing so much. You know, when I first started covering it, there were no motor coaches. There were no lounges in front of the transporters. That's where they hauled the engines. And when you talk to people, you sat on the tires behind or the back of the transporter. and you got your stories by building relationships and saying, you know, can you talk to me after practice? Yeah, what time. And that was the way you got, you didn't have drivers that had PR people.

And so it was an entirely different world. And quite honestly, I had difficulty adjusting to it until I went to work for Penske and got an understanding of it. And it, I got a better understanding of driver's schedules. I didn't like having drivers, I thought, I didn't think it was right to have a driver to do hospitality the morning of the Daytona 500. He needed to be focused on the Daytona 500. Tell it. Hospitalities on race day are, we're always tough.

Oh, I just, I didn't agree with that at all. But, you know, I understood why you had to get approval so early, why you had to to start working on the next year in October to get everything. I learned a lot. I called that when I did that and then worked for the ProCup Series, which is now Cars Tour. And Rockingham and Wilkesboro, when it briefly reopened, I call that my 10 years of motorsports education. Because it made me see stories that I wrote that I wouldn't have written. Like what?

Like critical stuff that I didn't really fully understand. Yeah. But now I do. Yeah. And then I also showed me stories to write that I never had a clue about regarding the insides of the sport. And so, yeah, I learned a lot from Roger Penske and Don Miller. There's, I've talked to a couple of friends that I've made in the, in the, in the, in the, in the journalism, side of NASCAR and they would they would admit to a story that they were wrong or you know

wish they hadn't a writ written um do you do you have one that stands out by chance that you're like oh man you know I definitely didn't have that right or or I had I went and had to you know is there ever time where you really felt like you had to go and apologize and or so man I really didn't I didn't get this correct the the cost of the column that really stands out in my mind as being wrong. And actually it was when Brian France actually called me on it, called me on the telephone. But I wrote about how NASCAR was trying to make the drivers vanilla.

And they were losing the personality of the sport and all. And then after I went to work for a race team, I discovered it wasn't NASCAR that was doing it. It was the sponsors that were doing it and how the sponsors wanted their drivers to be because they were concerned about losing sales if their driver got into it with another driver or made someone mad. And that's when I realized. And I've told many people that when they fuss about NASCAR making the driver's vanilla.

And I say, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. It's corporate America that's making the drivers that way, not NASCAR. Yeah. And that's the one that really stands out in my mind. Yeah. But one time, Tim Brewer, it was after the All-Star race, and it was when Jeff Bodine was the driver. And there had been something in the qualifying, All-Star qualifying that happened. And Dick Beatty had, who was the Cup garage director at the time, Winston Cup director, had penalized them or something.

And the PR person for NASCAR at the time came in and gave a study. and the media center at Charlotte. Well, we get to Dover after the Charlotte race weekends, and Bob Latford, who was handling PR for Budweiser at the time, came into the media center at Dover, and he said, I think you need to go talk to Tim Brewer. He's mad at you. Okay?

So I went out there, and Tim and I were sitting on the back of the truck talking, and he was really angry about what I had written. And I said, well, that's what so-and-so said from NASCAR. You mean that's what NASCAR said? And I said, yeah, that's what NASCAR said. And then he got mad about that. And he said, that number 11 is my car. And if you want to know anything about my car, you call me.

I said, fine. If I want to know something about your car at 2 o'clock in the morning, I'll call you. And we've gotten a long fine ever since. Did you ever have any other kind of like tough conversations? I'm sure like I've been pretty lucky so far as a broadcaster to not have a driver call me or text me after a race and go, what the hell was that? There's been a few times when a couple of my friends or some people that are out there on the racetrack wonder why I'm so critical. But have you ever had a driver? You know, and I know this because I'm a driver or I was a driver.

Have you ever had a driver, like give you the cold shoulder, get frustrated over something that happened, and spend, you know, the next six months trying to avoid working with you and try to, like, in their own way, like, punish you? Yeah, well, we actually had, Tony Stewart got mad at one of our reporters when I was editor of scene. Yeah. And either April or May of one year. And he finally agreed to sit down and talk with me about it in October of that. year. And then Kevin Harvick got mad at our photo editor and wouldn't talk to anybody at scene. The photo editor? Yeah. Yeah, well, the photo editor was out of line.

Was he? Yeah, he was out of line. Do you know? It was, yeah, I know exactly what happened. It was when social media was just starting. And he put some things on social media. Oh, him personally. Yeah. I got you. Yeah. Yeah, he wasn't representing the company at that time.

Good. No. And, you know, Kevin actually told one of our other reporters who was going to talk to him for, needed to talk to him for a story. And he said, you know, it's nothing personal to you, but it's because of this. Yeah. I will not do anything for seeing. And I couldn't blame Kevin.

But, yeah, it's, there was one team owner that I don't think I spoke to for four years. Who? Junior Johnson. Why? I thought he was out of line on. something. He was? Yeah.

You got mad at him? Yeah. What happened? You don't have to tell me if you don't want to. Well, let's just say he and I didn't agree on something at Riverside. And so I wasn't going to deal with him. Four years. Yeah.

And what happened was it ended when. It was like I learned a long time ago. If they don't want to talk to you, you can go to somebody else on the team and talk to them. But I was at his house doing an interview. It was when we had the women in racing. And I was doing an interview with Flossie. Yep. And he didn't know I was there.

And he walked in the kitchen. And Flossie goes, hey, junior, you know, Deb Williams with Winston Cups scene. Lo. but we got along fine after that and when he was talking to me about when he was selling the team and all we were sitting in the cafeteria at Rockingham

and he started going off in a different direction I said don't you do that if you do that I'm going to get up and walk away okay so he didn't so why did you quit PR you went back into journalism well

Don Miller retired I was with Penske Racing South. And Don Miller and Rusty Wallace owned each owned 25% of that team and Roger owned 50. And so Roger had the Indy car under Team Penske

and it was in Pennsylvania at that time. And so when Don got ready to retire, he explained to me that they wanted to put the Penske Racing South under the Penske Corporation umbrella so that if they couldn't just shut it down because Penske Racing South was separate from Team Penske. If they just wanted to come in and shut it down, they could. But if it was part of the corporation, you had to have the board of directors vote

and everything. And he felt that was the better way to protect everyone. And so what happened was Roger decided that had a flood in Reading, Pennsylvania. So Roger decided to move the IndyCar team to Moresville. He also had a America Lamonts team then. That was before America Lomons and Emsa. Actually, EPSA got put back together, you know. And so they restructured and my duties got moved to Pinsky headquarters in Detroit at that particular time or in that Michigan area.

And my parents were getting older. And I felt like I needed to stay closer to them. And so it worked out that I looked for jobs outside of racing. I applied. Really? Yeah, I did. I applied for the PR job at Grove Park Inn and technical rider for the U.S. Forest Service and community relations at UNC Charlotte.

something that was open and sports information at Appalachian State. But the work that I kept getting was always in racing. And I was like, okay, God, I guess this is where I'm supposed to be. Yeah.

So the work that I kept getting was in racing. And I just felt more comfortable going back into the... Now, I loved the time I was with the ProCup series and handling... That was interesting

because Jimmy Wilson, who now runs... Modifieds was the director at that time. Yeah. And Jimmy will laugh and say, yeah, she got me out of more trouble more than once, tell me to just shut my mouth and she'd take care of it. But I feel like that because of what I went through at Penskeye in ProCup and Rockingham and Wilkesboro has made me a better reporter.

Yeah. It's made me understand more sides of the sport and understand something that, Bill France Jr. told me one time when he was really angry at me and shewed me out. And he shook his finger at me and he said, you remember one thing. We all eat out of the same pot. I didn't understand it when he told me that because I'd always been just a reporter. Well, that brings up a great opportunity to talk about what's going on in the sport today. The lawsuit between NASCAR and 2311, you know, you're kind of able to experience that firsthand.

being in the room during the trial, and what is in the best interest of everybody going forward? What is the best outcome? And how do we get there? You know, never having seen a charter, I don't know what's in it. I don't, I wonder if maybe the suit was filed on principle because they felt like they were take it or leave it type attitude and they didn't like it. I know an attorney once told me he don't ever sue on principle, sue on fact,

because if you sue on principle, you'll lose every time, but if you sue on fact, you'll be okay. The thing that bothers me the most is with NASCAR being a private company, one family, knowing what it came from,

having been there in those early years and seeing what they went through. Now, granted, you look back at when Bill France Senior banned Curtis Turner for life for trying to organize under the Teamsters Union. And then you look at 1969 when Richard Petty was president of the Professional Drivers Association and what they were working for. And they walked out at Talladega and how Bill France Senior dealt with that. So there's been a lot of things through the history that I think was wrong. But the thing that bothers me the most is when you have a private company and you've seen one family devote their life to build in that company to come in and then tear that company down.

You know, we always are preached about free enterprise here in this country. and building companies. And that's the thing that bothers me the most is seeing one family that's devoted 77 years of their lives through generations to build this and then somebody wants to come in and tear it apart. That's the one thing that bothers me. And I'll have to admit that all of us that were in the courtroom

last week were shocked at the e-mail. and texts that were revealed. We certainly didn't expect anything like that that day. We expected it in the trial. And some of the things that the judge has said was quite interesting, where he said, if either one of you think you've already got this case won, you're wrong because it's in the hands of a jury. And he said, you know, if...

I heard him say that he's like, he was caught. cautioning them about a Charlotte, North Carolina jury. What does he mean by that? I think he means the fact that you've got to know how these people are, how they think, because 2311 and Front Row Motorsports's attorney is from New York City. And I recently found out that NASCAR's attorney was in college at the same time, at the same college with my niece. They didn't know each other in college.

but they're entirely different personalities. And you've got to understand if you get a jury comprised of rule southerners that are very much, this is my business and I'm going to run my business the way I want to. They're going to have a different opinion than if you get a jury of people who have moved into the state and have grown up in a city and worked for someone else and maybe been a member of a union or something, they're going to have a different opinion. So I think the judge there was talking about personalities.

I'll give an example. One time I was called for jury duty in federal court, and it was on a pornographic case. And during the attorney was a question in prospective jurors, asked this woman from Wadesboro, who was in her probably late 50s, early 60s. And he said, well, can you give the, render a verdict, a just and fair verdict on the cases it's presented? Oh, yes, I can do that. He said, well, does anyone in your house subscribe to Playboy Penthouse or the Playboy channel?

And she bristled and she said, I don't allow that smut in my house. so she got removed from it. But, you know, she had just said, yes, I can render a fair and just verdict on the evidence as it's presented. And then the minute that it turned, you know, she couldn't. But I think the judge was referring to the personalities. You know, you've got to know the personalities of the people you're dealing with. And he, you know, he realizes, he said, you know, if the plaintiffs, meaning 2311, and front row win.

He said NASCAR will look very different in 2026. If the defendants win, then we all know what NASCAR will look like in 20206. So I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, you know, I don't know how I would feel if I was a track owner or running a track or trying to get sponsors or all because until this trial is held in December, there's a lot in limbo. Yeah, yeah. I guess it's probably naive to imagine that there's an opportunity for everybody to sort this out before it goes to trial. It would be nice, but I think the judge summed it up again when he said it's clear this is not going to be like two friends who shake hands after getting into a drunken bar room brawl. Yeah. But it's like I guess that.

the best way for me to describe it would be it's two mules that have dug their heels in, laid their ears back, and barred their teeth. Yeah. This is the way I view it. Hey, T.J., you know that I got my own Chevy dealership down in Tallahassee, Florida. We're part of the Hendrick Automotive Group. Yes, I have heard of Darren Hart Jr. Chevrolet. I bet you'd be surprised on what type of Chevrolet vehicles we specialize in. If I had a guess, I'm going to say it would probably be Chevy trucks. Well, we definitely sell plenty of those, but actually we're really big in commercial vehicles. We We actually sell a lot of crane trucks, or the number one seller, actually, in crane trucks. Okay, I definitely did not see that coming.

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Visit Dell Jr. Chevy.com and click commercial to explore the wide range of available commercial vehicles. Our team at Dellenhart Jr. Chevrolet will give you a world-class experience. Chevrolet, together, let's drive. You've seen the sport change a ton. And there's, you know, when we talk about just, for example, the race cars themselves, there's been so much evolution of the cars physically. You know, what is the general opinion of the media when they hear either people like myself or? or drivers or fans have a criticism or critique of the current generation of race car.

Do you look at that or hear that and go, this has been going on since the first car ever got built, right? This is, you know, there's been criticism or debate or or issue with any and every variation of race car we've ever had. is it going in one ear and out the other or is it a real conversation? Well, yes, we have always heard criticism of the cars. And it was always one manufacturer trying to get an advantage over another manufacturer. With this current car, I think you have to, it's like one veteran reporter told me when I first came into the sport. he said, you know as a reporter, there's two sides to every story. But you have to remember in racing, there's four to five sides to every story.

And, you know, I think the criticism of the car being too rigid was very valid. And I think that what you need to do is when someone tells you something, then you need to go talk to somebody. You don't just go for that one person, for that sound bite, for that clickbait, or for, that's the biggest thing I see is everybody's just looking for that one quote to take. And they don't really go and talk and find out what's going on. You know, it's just like to tell the story. To tell the story. Right, the story.

And, yeah, I think another problem you get into, you know, when I first started covering this sport, the drivers knew as much about the cars. as the mechanics did, because they often worked on them or they had their own. I mean, your dad had his own Bush Series team, you know. And I can remember one of those veteran reporters, the one that told me there's two sides, you know, there's four to five sides of every story. He told me, he said, you probably know more about those cars and those engines than any of the reporters in this media center. And I was like, how could you not learn about the cars and the engines if you're going to cover this sport?

and that's the thing that I see now is so many people don't really know about the car or try to understand the car or because they don't ask questions about the car. And, you know, I think anytime anybody says anything, they've got a reason for saying it. Sure. You just got to find out more behind it why it was said and what it's doing and what's happening. Yep. There's a big conversation around the place. playoffs and the format.

Joe Ligano had some interesting comments in the week leading into Darlington during Media Day about the current credibility and how valid today's format is. But there is a big conversation and even a committee formed by NASCAR to come up with other ideas, other alternatives. and I believe that in the next 24 months, there will be a new playoff format. And it may resemble something we've seen in the past. Who knows, where does the, where do you,

and I guess your, I always kind of, I guess my questions around like the car, the next year in the playoff format. Like, as a member of the media, there's a general obligation to be neutral, but at times too opinionated, right? And so I guess on the playoff format and so forth, do you allow yourself to be opinionated? Do you allow that to find its way into your work? If it is, it's as a column.

And that's where people have to realize if you're going to write a new story or a feature or a column, then it needs to be separated out because one of the first things that I was taught in journalism school is you are not the story. And columns, I've always had the toughest time with them because I feel like people want to hear other, they want to hear the driver's opinions and the crew chiefs and the team of their. They don't want to hear my opinion. They do. And so that, I've always had a trouble with columns. You know, it's like my first managing editor said, there's a story and everybody out there,

your job is to find it. And so if I feel strongly enough about something, then I'll write a column about it. But the playoffs or something, and I think it's because as I've gotten older, I take a wait and see attitude, and more so than I used to. and, you know, I find it interesting to listen all these different opinions.

You know, I remember when Richard Petty won the 1967 championship by like 12,000 points, and it wasn't a, it was a point system that no one understood. Yeah. You know, and then I can remember being at Rockingham when we still had one or two races to go and then crowning your dad, the champion. And so, you know, And looking back, I can see where one race, and it's kind of questionable, but it's kind of the same thing in the Super Bowl. But then if you take a three race, final stage, and, you know, are you going to do the average or who has the most wins or top?

You know, there's all kinds of things to do there. And I just, I don't think we should eliminate the playoffs. I feel very strongly about that. You like them. I like it simply because it creates good storylines. Yeah. And it's exciting. And, yeah, there's kind of that summer drag in the center of the season.

It's always kind of been there, regardless of the playoffs or formats. Exactly. And, you know, people complain about how long it is. I said, look, these people used to drive 50 to 60 races a year. I said it didn't get reduced to 29 to 30 until our. J. Reynolds came in. And I said they would end the season. I can remember as a teenager, them in the season the second week in November, and then start in the next season, the third or fourth week of November. And you would get to Riverside in January, and it might be the third

or fourth race of the season. And Daytona might even be the fourth race of the season. You know, they didn't start the season there. That's right. So I think we need to keep the playoffs. But I don't have a problem with it being restructured. Who's your favorite driver to work with in the media? I usually answer that question with whoever makes the best story. I know that's what I answer on race day. Who are some, I suppose, that you really always had a great experience with. Are you talking about now or earlier in my career?

Back in the day, yeah. Richard Petty, Cal Yarborough, Bobby Allison. Really? Yeah. Yeah, Bob, it was interesting because, I mean, Harry Gant, you know, it was funny. When Harry got... I can't see Harry ever being difficult.

No, no, no. Harry was one of those that... It was funny when he got the ride with Bert Reynolds and Hal Needham. He said, I called him up. I was at UPI then, and I called Harry, and I said, how has your life changed? since you got the ride with Bert Reynolds and Hal Needham, and Harry goes, I get more calls from people like you. But now, your dad was one.

If he got mad at a reporter, he had no use for that person. He would not talk to him. He would not give him the time of day. I mean, he, and it wasn't a frivolous mad. You know, he had a good reason to me bad at him. Yeah. But he and I always. got along well.

Kyle Penny is like a brother to me that I always wanted and never had. Oh, man. And, you know, when I started working with these people as reporters, the attitude that I had about some of them as a fan changed because I found out they were really nice people.

Yeah. Rusty and I got into it one time about when he had his lawsuit against Raymond Beatle. Uh-huh. And he was, bad because every time he turned around in the courtroom, I was sitting there reporting on it.

And, you know, it came out how much money he was making, which he didn't like. Because some of the fans got mad at him. And I told him, I said, well, if you didn't want it out, you should have told your attorney and let him seal it. I said, because anybody can, it's a public documents, public record, anybody can go in and walk in the clerk of court's office and ask to see it. he said you mean it's not just open to you because you're a reporter? I said no I said it's public record then he got mad at his attorney for not telling him he should have sealed it yeah damn Newman had a dry sense of humor Newman Newman had a dry sense of humor he does he does yeah um you worked with us a little bit on uh quite a bit actually on becoming Earnhardt

in 1980 how was that experience that is a piece of work that I'm really proud of fun yeah Yeah. Did you think that the series, when you, I mean, we did the first season, the 1979 season, had you listened to it at all? Mm-mm. So you didn't know. No. What did you expect from that series and what was your opinion of the way it turned out, I suppose? Oh, I mean, you know, it's just just so insightful. Yeah.

So insightful. And, you know, I think it's great. I think a lot of people don't realize how. much he Dale changed. Man. From the late 70s and early 80s. Wasn't the same person. No, he wasn't. And, you know, even dealing with him in the 1990s was entirely different than dealing with him in the early 1980s. And because he was very uncomfortable. He was very self-conscious about not having finished high school. And it made him uncomfortable to be in those situations.

And, you know, he was comfortable with Tom Higgins, with the Charlotte Observer, and they could do hunting and fishing and discuss that. But he was an entirely different person. So, you know, I think it's great to go back and get those interviews and the broadcast. I'm with you 100%. I, you know, I felt like when we, when Dad passed away, that person I knew so well. and I could almost predict exactly how he was going to act and what he was going to say when he walked into a room. And I really didn't realize just how different he was in 1980,

1974, all of that. And then until my mom, when she got sick with cancer, she finally said, all right, I'll tell you some of the real deal stories that, you know, me and your dad went through and some things that weren't very, didn't paint, dad in the best light, right? You know, he's a bit of goofball and idiot sometimes before he became somebody. And it made me go down.

Maybe I need to dig into this chapter of his life a little more to really see what else is there. And so doing that series really helped me not only like almost get as close as possible to traveling back into those garages. and seeing what it might have been like. I learned a ton about Darrell Waltrip, Diagard, all of that stuff, Buddy Parrott, Lanier. I mean, all these, Lenny Pond, what a quirky little sense of personality this guy was.

Just so many cool things that I learned about doing that stuff. But I think, yeah, I think the other thing that came out of that was unexpected was so Rod, Australand is still with us. And Rod's out west, and he's a bit of a recluse. And what I've learned is he really took the cell of that team very personally, and he's held onto that. And listening to his family, who I've been in contact with, he's a bit apprehensive to reconnect with that part of his life or even sit down and have a conversation at this table,

for example. He's gotten warmed up to the idea. But I think that he believed that everybody was not happy, you know, about him selling the team. And he's kind of held on to some unnecessary burden and grief over that. But he's still got a sharp mind. So I've never heard. never ever met this guy that I remember. Yeah. Maybe I was around him and didn't know it. But I've never had a chance to say hello to him. But actually, after doing this series, I realized that there's a lot of things that Dad

could be thankful for for giving him the opportunity to become what he became. One of those is absolutely Rod Austerlund for putting him in that car in 79 or even giving him a couple runs in 78. but going in and saying we're all in on Dail and Hart for 79, you know, raising for the rookie year and then went in the chain. If that doesn't happen, who knows, right? If that makes, Dad shouldn't have made it. Like the Dail Earnhardt in 74, 75, 76 should not have made it.

And, you know, looking at his statistics where he raced, what he was doing at Metroline and Hickory, yes, he was successful on a very low level. But, you know, when he would go run the big sports and races at Marquis, Martinsville and so forth. He wasn't beaten Butch Lindley and Sam Ard and all these guys and Jack Ingram. But he, you know, he made it off of, you know, a couple of, you know, unique moments. And one of those was Rod. And so I got the chance to talk to Rod. I caught over the course of the Sonoma race weekend this year, I was able to develop a text conversation and then eventually a phone call to speak to him. which was really, really cool for me. So I'm thankful that you were part of the Becoming Earnhardt series

and just kind of wanted to share with you what that had, what other things, unique things that had created in opportunities in terms of being able to just tell Rod, thank you. Well, that's great. You know, I think, if I may interrupt him, just a minute, I think the reason maybe Rod feels that way is because your dad was hurt so badly. by him selling it, and the people that thought a lot of your dad and were close to him and saw the opportunity he had and to do what he did, still being the only driver to win

rookie of the year in the championship back to back, that may be why Rod's apprehensive. Sure. You know, it's because of the hurt that was there. I think you're 100% correct. And I don't, I mean, I don't deny. that that probably was the dominating emotion around all of that when it happened. But I wanted, it was great to be able to tell Rod like, hey, man, I know that wasn't great. I know you're unhappy.

I know you didn't want to do that. And I know that you know that upset dad and all the people in his orbit. But man, if you hadn't to give him the shot, holy moly, thank you. Yeah. I mean, we still, he still give him the chance. you know and that that that was a incredible thing um i've really enjoyed this conversation i have too i can talk racing all day i know i can too um we'll have to have you come back i'd love to thank you i um i really appreciate you sharing with us about you know your opinion on some of the

the the topics of today i think um you know i we all sort of get in the noise of the social media conversation and I personally can get tugged back and forth in terms of how I feel about the way things are going particularly with that lawsuit and NASCAR in 2311. A person like you that's seeing this sport for so many decades is so valuable because to the conversation you're so valuable because your wait-and-see approach is a great one. I'm starting to feel that way myself about some things in the, life. It's like I used to just jump to a conclusion, jump to an opinion. I did too. And I'm like, you know what? I might just wait this one out because I've been, I've been on the wrong side of the

of things too many times. And I've learned, you know, by waiting and getting more information to make a more more sensible opinion of things. But. Yeah. And if I may say something right there when you're talking about waiting, I was thinking when I was, we were outside the courthouse last Thursday and Michael Jordan was making his statements. When I was with United Press International, I was covering Michael Jordan when he was playing basketball at University of North Carolina. And the night that he made the win-in shot in the NCAA tournament, my state editor had stationed me in the four-corner's bar in Chapel Hill to cover what was going on in Chapel Hill that night. So to have come this way, it's like I would have never seen this, you know, and that's going

through my mind while I'm standing there, getting the quotes from that. And, you know, Brad Dardy and I are from the same neck of the woods. Brad Dordy's school was in my high school's conference. Yeah. But, yeah, so that's another thing. It's, as you've said, I always was quick to jump to conclusions and just take a wait and see attitude. Yeah. Well, it's hard to not have an opinion when you're doing a podcast. We're almost forced to have to give one every single week. but yeah, I don't know. I just want things to work out. I want everyone to be happy.

And I won't, you know, NASCAR to be happy, but also want Michael Jordan and Denny to be successful. What's best for the sport? Yeah. It's good for them to be a part of it. And I wish everybody could figure it out. Yeah, I do too. All right.

Thank you, Deb. It's been fun. Thank you. I enjoyed it tremendously. You bet. You always got a friend here at Dirtymo Media, and we're thankful for you. Deb Williams on the Dell Jr. Download

Hey everybody, you want the latest Dell Jr. download apparel? Visit shop.dirtymohmedia.com. We're always adding new stuff all the time, especially like when we say something silly on this show. We'll put it on a t-shirt. Again, check it out at shop.dirtymobedia.com.

All right, so Deb Williams on the Dell Jr. download. Those are fun conversations. I just am jealous, honestly, of all the things that she's been able to witness. in this sport. I was around for some of the stuff in the 80s, but to have been old enough to have cataloged the memories would be pretty neat.

There are several people in the media side of NASCAR that have been around the sport for a long time and witnessed many, many changes and many unique moments. And I feel like that that, information and knowledge and storytelling is so valuable. And so we're really thankful for Deb to give us some time today. And, yeah, just a lot of fun. She had some pretty cool highlights in there.

I would just say we think about highlights on how we're going to clip this thing, and there were some good moments in there. But, yeah, I'd love to have her back. You know, we could probably get a little deeper into some of these more, you know, more challenging moments in the sport that she was a witness to and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, yeah, so I'm thankful for Deb and hope you enjoyed the conversation, and, uh, yeah, we'll be back next week with another guest. We've only got a few left this year, uh, before we wrap it up, and, um, yeah, so,

We'll see who's coming up. All right, it's time for the white flag. The Teardown was live on YouTube and Twitter following the race. And joining them for part of the show was Chase Briscoe, the winner at Darlington. Appreciate him taking time out of his busy evening to give our team at the Teardown a little bit of an insight into his win. Door proper clear dropped on Monday, and they were joined by T.J. Majors, and who's my co-host on the Tuesday show.

Action is detrimental. also dropped on Monday night up and down race for Denny and the 11th team. And then yesterday, obviously, Dirty Air with T.J. Herman Schrader and Speed Street will drop today. Also tomorrow, Thursday, another episode of Bless Your Heart.

I'll be back in the studio with Amy. Friday, the 30-30 comes out. Another episode of the 30-minute recap show. For everyone who can't listen to all of our podcast, this is a highlight real. 30 minutes long every Friday, the Dirty 30 coming at you. Check out Dirtymo Media on Instagram, Facebook X and TikTok.