The Dale Jr. Download - DJD Classics - Darrell Waltrip - Cheatin' Stories

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s epic sit-down interview with NASCAR Legend Darrell Waltrip delivers never-before-told stories and more. Ole DW shares some of the best cheatin' stories you'll ever hear. Some may call it cheating. Others, call it creativity. DW says that they were not "rule breakers," but rather, "rule makers" in their hey-day. Surprisingly Waltrip admits to using lead-shot and nitrous in racecars, as well as heavy radios and trick helmets. The driver known by some as "Jaws" for his mouthy, but entertaining nature, details what it was like to drive for noted moonshiner and NASCAR Hall of Famer Junior Johnson. How did he get from Junior's ride to Rick Hendrick's stable? It's a story that you'll never believe. Speaking of Junior Johnson, Darrell reveals how his car owner's stubbornness may have cost him a NASCAR Cup Series Championship.Waltrip talks about run-ins with Dale Earnhardt and his rough nature off-track as a friend. He also admits how driving for Dale Earnhardt's team saved his career. From driving a forklift to racing with Dale and Dale Jr. in Japan, the stories are plentiful.Plus, DW discusses his early days on the short tracks of Nashville and how he went from a house filled with four-letter words, to media-darling racecar driver and broadcaster. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey everybody, it's Dylan Hart Jr. And this week's DJD Classic episode is our conversation with the great Darrell Walter. Waltrip discusses his early days in Nashville, his upbringing, his time racing with my dad, Dale Earnhardt, and my grandfather, Robert G. Plus, some of the best cheating stories that we've ever heard on the show. Oh, look at this. This is it, huh? This is it. Darrell Waltrop's in our studio.

Look at this. What about that? How are you feeling? You good? Oh, I'm great. Yeah, I feel pretty good. I drove, I stayed at the Ritz last night. And it's like a ghost town.

Yeah. There is nobody downtown. I went to a Fleming's and ate dinner by myself. There was one other couple in there. I mean, and the hotel was empty. I've never been in that place when it was empty. Yeah. You're a talker.

When you're sitting at a table by yourself, who do you talk to yourself? The waitress. The waitress? Yeah. sit down and have a glass of wine or something you know and we'll chat so that car right there that nova i got a picture of me when i was like i don't know 12 years old sitting in the car and it's probably darlington or rockingham or somewhere like that and i got a lot of the pictures on my phone of that car that raced i got i got thousands and thousands of pictures of my dad i've collected over the years

and many of this car and um i didn't know that it was the same car year after year after year when he raced in the bus series you ran yeah yeah he had the same car from 84 it was blue wrangler car and he ran and he painted it good wrench at Daytona and one Daytona with a blue chassis yeah the Wrangler blue chassis was was still there yeah in the pictures and then they put a a ventura nose on it they put it they put the Nova on there robert g junior put the nova nose on it yeah and uh got pictures of car in the shop getting the nose put on it. And they painted chassis orange in offseason at some point. When we sanded it and cleaned it, blasted it, we found the Rue Rangler Blue Pane on it. But anyhow, for like 20 years, I've seen

this car in pictures, different places, getting sold at Meekam and going overseas to that... Goodwood. Yeah, Goodwood. Running at Goodwood. And I'm like, man, if it's over there doing that, Those guys at On it must have done their homework. It might be the real deal. And so it came up for sale at the Barrett Jackson, and I called Rick. And I said, Rick, might have to ask you to do me a favor and buy this one car that's at the auction. So I called my uncle, Robert G. Jr., who put the body on the car originally.

Yeah. And I showed him some pictures of it from the Internet. And I said, is this the car? Is this the really the car? He goes, hey, it's hard to tell. He's like, there's only one way to really, maybe I'd be able to tell. if you got underneath it. Yeah.

And looked at the drive shaft loop. Dad made the drive shaft loop in the shop. Oh, my. And because they went to the racetrack without one, and they told him when they come back, have one in. So he handmade it out of a strap. And I remember that. Yeah.

And so, sure enough, there's a drive shaft hoop under the car, and it's not painted. It's original, and it says on it, do not paint, because this was handmade by dad, and whoever on the car knew better, right, than to mess with it while it's been restored two or three times. I still wasn't trusting that. You know, if you're going to spend that much money on something,

I need more proof, right? Yeah. Mom was sick with cancer. We were up at her house and just sitting there visiting her and me and LW, my brother-in-law, I said, man, here's some pictures of this car. I wish I had more proof than just that drive shaft loop. You could bolt that on anything.

and I got to that picture of me sitting in the car and in the picture so I'm sitting in the driver's seat there's this radio box and they mounted it in there crooked and they got two rivets on each side of it and one rivets attached to this roll bar the apos roll bar and the other two rivets are attached to this little sheet of aluminum that goes up from the roll bar to the doortop yeah and it's in there crooked right and I said LW I bet all that paneling in there's original and if we go down to that car It's at my house.

It was at my house next to Mama's at the time. I said, I bet if we see them property rib holes, that's it. Wow. Got to tell us. We ran down there and I walked, I mean, I'm walking in the door thinking it's either. This is it. This is the moment of truth. Well, it could be the worst.

It's the car or I wasted all this money on life. It could be that. Phony. Yeah. And sure enough, the rivet holes were there. I'll be down. Yeah. And it was like, hallelujah.

So. Did you pay a lot for it? Yes. If you bought it Barry Jackson, you did. And so Rick, I was like, you know, I'd already bought the car. I was so thankful that it was the right thing. And we ended up restoring it over there. Robert G. Jenner, put the body back on it.

Yeah. Well, tell him about the hammer marks, too. Yeah, you know, Daddy beat the floorboard out of all his cars. Did you know that? Oh, yeah. He beat the hell out of the seat. You know, that's how we adjusted everything. You had to get a butler seat and then you would just start.

banging on it and beating on it until you got it kind of where it fit you know you didn't have those molds like they had the day you said no you know we had to beat the hell out of them yeah and in the race sometimes you'd get them all bowed out like you want him of course he had to be able to lay down in there right you know he had that he had that he had that seat like a little rap hole right in the where he said his butt yeah he would cut the bottom out of his seats oh yeah he was down he put the pad on the floor of the car no hole he said the sea wasn't holding you in the belts were that's right Look, I don't have to tell you He had a theory about everything

Oh, he did It didn't matter what it was He had a theory about it So anyways Darrell, thanks for coming all this way You said you stayed in a hotel by yourself You're doing all this just to be here for us today I'm sure you're coming through town

Seeing some old friends too So that makes me feel a little bit better You've been all this way No, no, I watch your show quite often You've had some of my best, you know, Kenny Schrader And of course you had Hank Jr. on the other day And you've had Kyle Lauer You had a lot of, you know, a lot of fun people.

And I watch and because I like to see what they're doing. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm in Tennessee and everybody's over here. And so, you know, I don't always, I'm not in the loop so much like I once was. So I like to know what everybody's doing. So it's fun to be here, man. I'm excited about it.

You said you're in Tennessee. Where are you at? I live in Franklin, Tennessee. I got married in 69. So Steve and I've been married 51 years. And we moved down to Tennessee right after I got married and started driving for P.B. Krell. I think you remember Chubby his son and, you know, we built, we've had cars that he bought all his cars from Bobby Allison.

So that's how I got to be friends with Bobby Allison. And I started racing at the fairgrounds. And I won everything. You know, I won, one, one. Matter of fact, the first cup race I won was at the fairground. So I moved there in 1970. I've been there ever since. In the car business, got the five car dealerships there.

Wow, five car dealerships. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. have Honda, Volvo, Subaru, Buick, and GMC. If you had all them car dealerships, why was you in broadcasting so long? Because I loved it. One thing, even today, and I guess I was fortunate when you think about it,

because I wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have been good with this COVID thing, because I never liked to watch a monitor. Oh. For 19 years, they stayed on me all the time, like, watch the monitor, watch the monitor. People at home don't know what you're talking about. I said, I don't care if they know what I'm talking about. I want a camera over here. I want a camera over there.

And so it was, you know, it would have been hard for me to be in the studio and do the races. Because I got to see it. I got to smell it. I got to feel. I got to touch it. He's the same way. Yeah, I got to hear it. Yeah, I'm just, luckily for us, the way the, the way the booth works for us is,

I've always felt like that if I thought something was interesting that I saw out the window, I'd just start talking about it and they're going to put a camera on. Yeah, that's where I was. Yeah, same way. And so, and our producer allows us to sort of steer the camera to wherever we want. This is a great battle getting ready to happen. You know, let's go there. So when you were working in the sport, you didn't live in Tennessee.

You know, when you're driving race cars in a Cup series all those years, you didn't live in Tennessee. You were here, right? You were in Charlotte. Well, this was my second home. Right. I met Robert G, your grandfather. Jake Yelder brought my mercury, my 71 mercury over here, for Robert to fix the side in. What happened to the side?

Well, I got in the record in the Daytona 500, and Marty Robbins raked down the side of my car and pushed the whole side of it in. And I finished the race. I don't remember where I finished. But anyway, so when the race so with, and Jake lives in Charlotte, and he had worked at home and moot, he had worked for the petties, and he worked for Hudson Pagan. So Jake knew everybody. and he said, we're going to take this car back to Charlotte and I'll get Robert G to fix it. I said, all right. What's his last name?

That is his last name. Okay, well, so we go. So I've never been to Charlotte before. So they bring the car over here and I come over here and I, and like Charlotte Motor Speedway seemed like it was way out in the country back in the day. It took, you know, land of airport. It was. Took forever to get out there, you know, but we finally got out there. We stopped by Elmo Langley Shop on the way because we had to pick up a gear and I don't know.

We did a bunch of stuff. So we get to Robert's shop and this little shop behind his house and their damn wrecked car everywhere, mostly dodges. And we go down to the driveway into the shop and Robert did a big guy with his eyes, and a cigarette hanging with ashes hanging off of, you know. And Robert's welding and he's going, p. I'd say, we've got to get my car out of here. He said, what's wrong? I said, that man can't even weld.

He doesn't know how to weld. Because I've never seen a wire welder before. I thought you had a hit an arc, you know, and run a bead, you know. It's funny. He said, calm down, calm down. It's going to be fine. And so Robert and I, you know, came great friends. I kept my cars there.

The mercury you're talking about is that, that car, is that the car that Mario Andrade wanted Daytona 500 with? I had no idea. When I bought that car, bought it from home to Moody. It was a 69 mercury when I bought it. It had been a 67 fare lane. Then a 69 mercury. Then I turned it into a 71mer. And that's kind of way chassis were back in the day.

You didn't throw them away. You just updated them. So we were working on that car one day. Was it a frame from front of? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a whole car. I bought it was a guy named.

How did you update cars back then? Because they had a lot of, I mean, it was a stock shell on top of the chassis. You just cut the sheet metal off of them and, you know, you'd put another set of sheet metal on them. Wow. I mean, that thing started off brand new as a 67 fair lane. And, of course, it became a 69 mercury. and Ralph Stomlin, Bill France, Sr., he liked to bring those kind of road racing guys over, and this car ran at Talladega.

That's the last time it had been raced. It sat on the front row, I think. Anyway, I bought the car and we're working on it one day in the shop. It's way back in the day. Who did you buy it from? I bought the car from Holvin a Booty. Yeah. You just walk over and I'm interested in buying a car.

Oh, they wanted to sell it. It was for sale. And they wanted, I paid, I got the car. with the engine in it, a brand new engine, 427 tunnel port, a spare engine. I didn't really know why I needed a spare engine, but after a little while I figured it out. They don't last very long. And some tires and wheels and so forth. The first race I went to, I went to Talladega. That was my first race. And everybody said, why do you go to Talladega? I said, well, that's when we got the car done. So I had the car to Hudson Pagan. That's how I met Jake. And Jake was working on the car, and he was up on

the dash ground. He said, hey, come over here. He said, you know what car? You know where this car came from? I said, I got it from home and moody. Why? He said, this is Mario's car. How did he know? It had a tag under the dash on the firewall under the dash. It had serial numbers on it.

And Jake had worked on that car. And that's how he knew that was the chassis. Yeah. I mean, obviously, it went through a lot of change. Yeah, the body now. Wow. I was so, well, I was kind of happy because, you know, I said, man, I got Mario Andretti's car.

Mario was, you know, he was one of my heroes back in the day. and AJ. But anyway, go to Talladega the first race I go to, got this 71 Mercury's been over Hudson Pagan. I'm ready to go. Man, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm at Talladega. And we open, I got this, I got this Maxwell House coffee truck that my father-law bought from a automobile dealer in Owensboro. Big box truck. Yeah, big old box truck, international. It wear you out, just driving it. Got a trailer, got the car. Jake goes, I meet Jake at Talladega. We unload the car. We go open up the back door, in there and he says, where's your tools? Where's your, where's your equipment? I'd been to Western Auto. This is no lie. There's Western Auto in Owensboro. I'd been to Western Auto. I bought me a little

toolbox and I had some 9-16 inch and some, you know, some wire, some pliers and some screwdrivers. A couple of inches, yeah. That's all I had. I didn't have, I didn't have jack stands. I didn't have air ranes. I didn't have anything. And Jake, I thought he was going to die. I thought he was going to turn around and go home, which later on. Which that kind of was his thing, right? I didn't know what I was doing. I mean, I was ready to go. That's what I had at the fairgrounds that worked already there. Why wouldn't it be okay for Talladega? It wasn't. So I ended up having to buy air rinsches. Oh, man. I had rent air tanks. I had to buy some I had to go out and buy some chatt. I probably, I didn't have money. I had, see, that's one of the

things that was kind of weird about my career. When I first started, everybody thought, because my wife, Stevie, her fall in-law was the president of Texas gas. So everybody assumed I had a lot of money. So they thought I'd come in, I'm a rich kid, you know. I didn't have two nickels to rub together. I'd pay Jake and Robert and them on Friday and borrow it back from on Monday.

That's how broke I was. So anyway, I didn't have a lot of money to spend, but somehow, some way, we managed to make it. Where do you go buy and rent all this stuff at last minute like that? Like how do you just different, you know. There's part trucks at the track. Yeah.

Is that what you did? Yeah, there's stuff there. You know, Mr. Hurd. Back in the day, there were parts trucks that would park in the garage. I mean, two or three retailers, basically like a, like a, anything you need. Compa Stone, hush and painting, butch Stephen. If that truck didn't have it at one next door did, and they would sit there and retail sell everything you could need. Sure.

If I might have wanted it or needed it, at the racetrack, it was in one in parts trucks. Oh, yeah. It's so different. I hate, he knows, because he was there a little bit, but the sport is so different today than it was then. I mean, it was just a few guys, it was a hobby. It was almost like a hobby. It wasn't a business like it is today. How'd you do in that race, your first race?

Well, that's kind of funny, because Jake was notorious for cheating. I didn't know that. I mean, I like Jake. I didn't know that. We led that race. me and James Hilton had a heck of a battle, and I'll never forget, I came into pits, and I had this rag-tag, a bunch of kids from... You had to rent them, too, yeah. They all came up from Nashville, was in the race, you know, so they didn't know.

They'd only ever worked on the car in Nashville. The first pit stop we make, or somewhere in there in a race, I said, I've got to be cheating. There's got to be something going on. I pass Richard Pettie, Buddy Baker, by passing all these guys, and I'm fighting with James Hilton for the lead of the race. Well, I didn't know we had old tires. The tires came with the car. The last time it was run was at Talladega.

So it had these old slick tires like that's what they had had there to start with. And Goodyear had come this time with a brand new treaded tire. Well, those treaded tires would run 10 laps and just tear all the pieces. So all these fast guys were having tire problems. I wouldn't have any tire problems. So I came down pit road and I stopped and we made a pit stop. And in my mind, I'm thinking, I know we're cheating. Boy, I'm going to be in big trouble right from the get-go.

You're thinking that? I was. I really was. How am I? I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm leading the race. You're passing Richard Petty. I'm a pet.

So I come into pits and I make a pit stop. And I'm going down pit road and everybody's pointing at me. I said, yep, they all know it. They know we're cheating. I didn't know that the jack was hung under the car. When they pitted the car and it didn't let the jack all the way down, it got hung up under the car. And I'm going down pit road with a jack hung up under the side of my car. and everybody's, I thought they were saying, oh, he's cheating like hell.

But no, they were just pointing at that jack. Hey, man, you got a jack under your car. That was a brand new jack. I think I paid $200 for it. He knows, but, yeah, cost you just bought it. Yeah. But anyway, that was my first race. I could have won that race.

You know what? I always think about, what if I'd have won that race? Your first one. Here I am. First race I ever been to. I'm a rookie. You think I was obnoxious before that race? What would I have been like after?

If I'd have won that first race, I don't know what they would have done with me. They would not have been able to deal with you. No, they would. They have no idea what they were about to get. Jaws would have surfaced much earlier than his career. Jaws would have been a goldfish at that point. They only know what kind of shark they were going to get, right? But those first few years were amazing.

I looked back on them, I said, how in the heck did I survive? How did I make it? I don't know. It just blows my mind sometimes thinking about how lucky. Your dad and I, I mean, we were buddies, and he's racing dirt cars. you know, Concord. And I'm trying to keep a car together to go to the next race. And I got all these, I got Ray Fox Jr.

and Robert G. and Larry Reagan. I got all the guys from the 71 team when they closed the doors over there, Harry Hyde, they came to work for us. They came to work for me. And so I had a really good bunch of guys. Did you know it? Did you know how good they were then? No, no.

You're talking about legendary names now. They're just guys, you know. I didn't know. Harry Hyde. Oh, man. Well, Harry Hyde was from Louisville, Kentucky, and I knew who Harry was. He and I were kind of buddies. I always said, if I got in trouble and I had to go to court, I want Harry to be my attorney

because he was so he could talk his way in and out of anything. Could he? Oh, he was great. I loved Harry. The car that we're talking about, I'm a big Jimmy Means fan. Yeah. In collecting photos of Jimmy over the years, there's a picture of you and him with your mercury, T-boned at Daytona and is 300-mile.

What happened there? Well, that was the last time I ran that car. You were there running a cup race in another car. Yeah, I was driving for DiGuard, I think, at the time, yeah. And you still had that mercury and peddling with it. I had what was left of it, yeah. When I hit Jimmy, it pretty well wiped it out. But anyway, and what was funny is Jimmy's from Alabama, you know, and there's something

about Tennessee and Alabama. You know, there's just some rivalry there that we just could never seem to get over, But anyway, I knew Jimmy from racing at BIR and Huntsville in different places. And he swore, and he was mad at me. He might still be mad at me. I don't know. Did I hit him on purpose? He swore that, you know, he got sideways in front of me and I teabon him.

What am I going to do? I got no, you know, I did the best I could. And he was mad at me for, he may still be mad at it. I don't know. He was, what? He thought you teabone him on purpose? He thought I did it on purpose. I said, I'm going to tear my car all the hell, just to hit you on the side.

out of the door, he said, well, you were trying to kill me. I said, I really wouldn't. I just said it was an accident. I promised. That's wild. I know. That sounds like there was some animosity there more than just a Tennessee, Alabama thing, right? Well, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but D.W.

was winning the track title at Nashville, and then when DW went on from the fairgrounds, Jimmy won the title the next season. Yeah. And the 1974 Winston Racing Series championship. Somewhere back in there. I won the track championship in 70. It was abbreviated season. Yeah.

And then I won again in 73. I drove R.C. Alexander's. Yeah. Mike Alexander. So this Mercury, you crash it. That's the last race it runs. Yeah. How does it end up being restored and back in your hands today?

Yeah. I love the way cars do this. How does that car? Where does it go? Yeah. So we take the car home and because it just killed it from the firewall forward. I mean, it was done. did. And so we took it home and we took everything off of that car, oil tank, spindle,

anything that we could salvage. And that's how we built the Camaro. The little Camaro I have that we won the modified race at Daytona in in 78, we took everything off the Mercury and put it on the Camaro, the rear-in, housing, and just things that we could salvage. We took the body from the firewall back and put it out behind Robert's house and covered it up with a tarp. Well, that's where it's set forever. And then Hugo came through. Wow. And Hugo came through and blew a tree down onto the mercury.

Oh. So there it sits with a tree laying on top of it. And Robert calls me and says, Daryl Lee, he always called me Daryl Lee. He said, Daryl Lee, I'm taking this car to the dump. I said, what? You can't do that, Robert? He said, it's killed. It's no good.

You don't want it. I said, all right, I'm going to come over. I'm going to check it out. So I went over, we get the tree off of it. And I had a shop at the time at the Charlotte Motor Speedway. And the good year buildings up there. That's where my little bush shop was. And so I took the car up there, what was left of it.

And I said, someday I'm going to find somebody, sorry to say this, dumb enough to fix this thing. And sure enough, oh heck, what was that kid's name? It worked for Joe Rutman, his crew chief and got hung with him a lot. Anyway, he came by one day. He said, what are you going to do with that old? body. I said, I want to fix it up. He said, I'll fix it for you. So he took the car. He took what was left of it. Took it to his shop. He bought a cadaver car from California and brought it home and put all the kind of parts from that car onto that body, fixed it. James Hilton, who was a great friend of

mine, he helped me set. He put the 429 motor in it. Kenny, Kenny, whatever his name was, at Home of the Moody. He built me a set of stainless steel headers for it because he still I had all the templates. So slowly but surely, I got the car put back together. And today I have it. It's got a 429 hemie in it, which are kind of rare. And it's an amazing, it's an amazing car to have. Yeah, that's crazy.

So you just talked about the Camaro. This Camaro, I talk to people all the time about Robert G. Oh, yeah. And how good a body man he was. And how creative he was. And so one of my favorite things to sort of tell people about that he did was with that Camaro, the front fenders. Oh, yeah.

Made him out of Volkswagen fenders. Oh, yeah. Did you see that happen? Oh, yeah. So he's, Robert's a perfectionist, and Robert was the funniest man I ever knew in my life. I mean, he could be dead damn serious and crack you up. Really? He's just that southern Virginia, South Hill, Virginia, accent he had, going to his and going to the

to bid and let's cook a steak and and he drank he loved ground he love crown royal he kept all of his really important stuff in those little blue bags you know he kept all the watches and rings and anything you had to collect it oh you know like in the bank money bag yeah yeah that was it that was way he kept everything in those blue bags you know he thought it was good enough for the bank oh yeah we've been there working away look we've been there working away on the car and he'd say well darrell lee time for us to eat dinner and he said I'm gonna cook a steak you go up to Concord and get me a fifth of Crown Royal. And I'd come back and we'd drink Crown Royal and cook steaks and work on cars all night.

Best steak you'll eat. Oh, man. I've heard that. He would sit there on the grill while it's cooking and just drizzle, Worcestershire sauce on them. Oh, yeah. Just a little at a time. And it would seep into that meat, man.

It was so damn good. Tony Jr. is the one that first told me about his steaks, which I guess were legendary. Like, apparently he cooked a million of them, too. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's what you ate when you went. over there. Every night. He'd eat for breakfast or dinner, you know, whatever.

He would work all night and sleep all day. I mean, it didn't have to, he kind of remind me a Dale Jr. when he comes to that, you know. It's in the blood, I guess. I guess. Yeah. So the Volkswagen Fender, so it's crazy to think that, I mean, you needed clearance.

You needed tire clearance. Oh, yeah. This thing was, you know. Yeah. So how did he, how did that come up? It's two in the morning. That was his working hours, you know, probably from about eight to two or three in the morning. Call me at 2 o'clock in the morning.

He said, and he would about probably, he might have been a little high, I don't know. He says, Darryl Lee, I figured it out. I said, what did you figure out, Robert? I figured out what those, what, I went to the junkyard. I bought some Volkswagen fenders and wait till you see this car. Wait to you see what I've done with these fenders. And so he had built fabricated, stucing, stuff. off to go because the car sit real low and the tires were higher yeah the tires were actually higher

than the motor yes so the way the body was put on the car and everything so you had to have these big fenders right and and and he had to it had to be and see he'd work for harry hide so they knew a lot about they knew quite a bit about aerodynamics at that time and so he called me that's yeah look at that and he called me that night at two in the morning he said i finally figured it out I got me some Volkswagen fenders and I put those on there and they are perfect I'm in your mind you're like what the hell are you talking about?

Right. I don't feel good about this. Your imagination would have never been able to. I don't feel too good about this but I'll take your word for it because I mean I knew he, he was so good. He was absolutely the best. That looks amazing.

I can't believe it. The craftsmanship. Well, you know who else is pretty good? His son is pretty good. I know. He's the one that told me about them fenders and I'm like, how do you think?

your mind, you know what would work is some Volkswagen finish? Oh yeah. Yeah. But you know what's funny about that car? So, I paid for everything on that car. We spent about $25,000. I got a motor from Junior Johnson. So I basically

I felt like it was my car. But when Robert passed, they had an auction at his garage. And they were going to auction off the car. I called his daughter and I said, hey, you can't auction off that car. It's mine. She said, well, do you have a bill of sale?

I said, no, I don't have a bill of sale. You bought it. She said, you got a canceled check? I said, I don't have anything. I said, but I paid for all that. Robert built it, but I paid for it. She said, if you don't have any proof of you own it, we're selling it at the auction. So I said, okay, great.

So I go to the auction. It's over at Robert's house. Oh, yeah. And I said, the car comes up for bed. And I start, I've been $2,500. because it wasn't all that it was it wasn't together it was a lot of pieces and parts you had to put it back together so i was 2 500 somebody bet 3 000 where'd that come from i bet 3 500 and somebody said 4 000 i look around it's butch stevens because butch had helped work on that car too

so i went over there butch by arm said look butch we can jack this thing up to 10 000 if that's what it takes i'm going to buy this car so you can because we were kind of buddies i said you can either bail or you can jack the price up to unreasonable. But I'm going to buy this car. I'm going to buy this car. So I ended up buying the car back for $4,000. Wow. And then I had to put it all together. I had to buy a motor for it. And all this stuff was in the little garage behind little little storage room behind Robert's house, the headers and pieces and parts that went to the car. But that was, I had to buy it back at auction. Well, yeah, but I understand that you still own it? You still have it?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we got it at the shop. Oh, man. Yeah. All the cars I have, Ray Everham, that's the only one he ever said, if you ever want to sell that car, I'll buy. It's so cool. Yeah. Because we took it at Daytona.

We were the only one there with a Camaro that first year. They ran the Modified on the Big Track. They've been running them on the road course. They ran the Modified on the Big Track, and we built that Camero, and we got there, and everybody said, Are you kidding me? Who ever thought about running a Camero like that in a modified race? What we did. and we won it.

And that made that car very famous. Yes. Everybody copied it. Yeah. Yeah, the next year, Richie Evans had one, and Richie won the race. Because Robert went down to banjos. Banjo built Richie a car, and Robert went down to banjos and helped put the body and fix the car for it.

Oh, so Robert built his, too. Oh, yeah, he built the pender for, yeah. Robert was special. Yeah. Special. So talk about Robert's dirt track car. Well, you ran it also at Snowball. Yeah.

Camero. Yeah. One thing that I've always wondered, again, collecting all these photos, trying to put all this stuff in order as far as what happened first. When I'm looking at this 17 car that Granddaddy owned, that he ran at Metrolina, you drove it at Snowball Derby. Yeah. Haywood Plyler drove it after you and Daddy.

But when were you driving it and when was Daddy driving it? Because it kind of looks like the same car, almost in the same. year. But you, you know, talk about driving his little short track car that he ran around. Oh, yeah. And pull up the pictures. Yeah. So we took the car.

Dale would run on dirt on Friday night, and I'd run on asphalt on Sunday. The same weekend. The same car. Yeah. Dale didn't tear it up, you know, but it's pretty bad. Yeah. Dale was pretty bad about knocking. I got to tell you this story.

So Robert built this really brand new car. Snowball Derby. Yeah. So Robert built this car, and it was really a pretty little car, a little Camer. and I went in a shop, but the nose was a little higher than normal. It wasn't down on the ground like it's supposed to be. And I said, Robert, I said, ain't that nose up there a little hive? He said, don't worry, Dale will erase it down.

Wow. Hey, I let Dale take one of my, I had a brand new little Nova. That's at the snowball. That's DW right there. Yeah. Look at you. Working on it. And now that, now I know the inspiration for that,

that side panel there. Oh yeah. So I let Dale take my little Nova to Nashville. When I met Dale, he was racing dirt tracks and we would sit and drink Jack Daniels and he'd say, I got to get off these dirt tracks. I ain't never going to be anybody if I don't get off these dirt tracks. You've got to help me. And of course, at the time, I was a little bit better off than he would, but not a lot. That's the car he's talking. Yeah, that's the car. So I said, I tell you what, so time went by, and I said, I had this little car and needed to finish. It wasn't all together. It wasn't finished.

I said, I'll tell you what deal. If you'll finish that car, you can take it to Nashville and race it. Because Dale was a good, he was a good mechanic. I mean, he was good at working on cars. So he and big crews and, I don't know, two or three of his buddies, Harget and a whole bunch of them. They all got in on that car, and they all fixed that car, and they got it ready to go and they took it to Nashville.

So Monday morning, I said, well, I wonder what happened. I never heard anything about how he did or anything. Monday morning, I'm at home, and I get my phone call. about five different drivers from Nashville. And they said, if you ever let him drive one of your cars again, we're going to come to whip your ass. Because he proceeded to bring my car back in a basket. Dale was, said, what I loved about Dale,

and what I love and hate thing about Dale, Dale could do anything with a car. I mean, he could get it out of shape. He could put it in a hole. He could just, he could do, he had such great car control. He learned that from racing on dirt, you know, all that dirt track race, and they did. but he would do things sometimes that would absolutely make you, you know, kick you off.

What the hell are you thinking? And, of course, he'd had that little grin, you know, that he always had. And he said, well, you know, a guy was in my way and I need to move him. And he wouldn't get out of the way. And so I had to move him forward, you know, I had to help him out. I help him out. Yeah. I'm assuming, is this around 1970? In the 70s? It was in the 70s.

Yeah. Right. Because he was running dirt. And then eventually he made it to pavement. and I'm assuming that that's when Ralph probably around the time he passed away. Yeah, it was right after. So I think that was around 72, I believe. Yeah, Ralph passed away and then I'll never, again, it's another story, but Johnny Ray from Talladega. Oh, look at that little car. Isn't that beautiful car?

We're just sitting here sharing pictures for all the podcast listeners right now. That car could be, that car could race today. It's beautiful. I know. And by the way. Look at you with your hand hanging out the window. like you're on the first Sunday drive. I'm not cool.

Yeah, you were cool. I learned that to Derry Drive-in. Hang that arm out the window and kind of, you know. We had no drive-to drive-ins back in the day. I had a 53 forward flat head. I'd pull the choke. I had a hand choke. I'd pull the choke and they go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I go through the dairy drive-in. Hey, hey, how you doing? So you and Dad would sort of drive. You and Dad both were driving for Robert. You were, you know, y'all were also doing other things, but Robert's little car that he kept in his shop, that he went and ran the dirt tracks and asphalt tracks, a little short track races all over the country or all over the southeast.

You're peddling with that a little bit, having some fun. And trying to get your cup career, where your cup career is started. You're running in a cup series. Talk about moving from driving your own car, your little mercury, and get an opportunity to race for Budmore. Yeah. In the 15th. Yeah, well, I was 73.

I mean, I guess people in the sport could tell that, you know, if I had a good car, I could drive. I mean, it wasn't a matter of, he's an okay driver. It's just, you know, I took a lot of, I took that mercury. I took everything that I got in and I made it competitive. I drove Junie Dunlevy's car. I ran up front. I drove the Diagard car, ran up front. So everybody could tell, this one's 73.

everybody could tell if he had a good car he'd probably he'd probably be pretty special yeah so bobby isaac was driving for budmore and uh bobby quit got out of the car at talladagas said he heard a voice that's right said something told him that uh after i drove for bud more i know where the voice came from by the way wasn't he doubt about that was bud more that was the voice that was the that's a legendary story real quick and for those that don't know bobby isaac's in the race is he leading I, he may have been. And he said he, that's the, that's the tail is that he had a big lead. But didn't somebody crash in that race that?

Who didn't crash in that? That's right. We had 54 cars sometimes. Right. But did somebody die? It may have been tiny lung. I don't know. It was long that period of time.

But anyway, he heard of voice. Yeah. And he just got out and parked it. And never raced again? Well, he raced at Hickory. I think that's three, had a heart attack at Hickory. So you were the replacement. So the Budmore.

You were the next driver. Bud and I were buddies. I was friends with everybody. You know, I'd have to, back in the day, you had to be friends with everybody because you had to borrow something. But this is a big deal. Like, Buddy's car was a competitive ride. Yeah. You know, you're, this is a big deal for you.

Yeah. Well, here's the, here was what I kind of figured out as time goes by. Bud was running a 351 small block against. God only knows how big those motors were. I mean, they were racing against hemis and 427s, and they were restricted to try to make the small block competitive. And at some tracks, that car may have had a slight advantage, but not at all the tracks.

But I didn't know that. Hell, I'm supposed to win every race. That's all I know. That's a winning car. It's a winning car owner. I'm supposed to win every race. So, but anyway, Bud called me and it was kind of hard because I was, it was 73 and I was just getting my act together and I had Jake and I had Robert.

Had a lot of stuff at their shop at Robert's shop. And Bud wanted me to drive his car and I thought, man, I don't know. Do I want my name on the front of the check or do I want my name on the back of the check? Couldn't make up my mind. But I figured the back was a lot better than the front. So I went and drove his car for eight or ten race and I wrecked every week. You did? I don't think.

Yeah, it didn't go good. It didn't go well at all. I went to Darlington. I think I could qualify really well. Qualified front row at Richmond, wrecked, caused a big crash, big fire. Went to Darlington. Why would you reckon? Was it you or was it a car handful?

Way old. Really? I just didn't have a, I didn't have, I didn't know. You know, when you're a rookie, you don't know what you don't know. Well, if I didn't realize that I had a small. motor. They had a big motor and they probably were better than me. But if Bobby Allison ran a at Richmond, for instance, if he ran an 18 flat, I was supposed to run a 1790, you know. And so that's kind of how I approached it. And I went at it all wrong. And Bud and I were really, I like Bud a lot. We

were good friends and I was going to drive for him in 74. But George former, George former came along and he had some money. And I don't have any money. And Bud said, look, I got to go with the money. I got to go with R.C. Coley deal, and so I was back to my car. So, yeah, and that didn't work out too well for Bud either. No, it didn't. Maybe the voice knew what was coming. Maybe the voice actually knew a lot more about this situation than anybody else did. Maybe. Hey, Bud was a piece of work. Now, I went to Darlington. The first time I drove his car, the Southern 500, and it's hot. Oh, it must have been 120 degrees. And tongue, he said, let me tell you something, boy, don't go in that third term, which is the first turn now.

He said, don't go on that third turn on outside of anybody. You just fall in line, get behind us. Don't go in that turn on the outside of nobody. I said, okay, okay, okay, I won't. And so we start the race. I think I started fourth. Bobby was here. I was on the outside.

We go down the back straight away, and I'm saying, I'm side by side with Bobby and say, surely he'll let me in because we're kind of buddies. Not great buddies, but kind of buddies. I said, he'll back off, he'll let me in. He'll back off. He'll back off. He didn't back off. He didn't let me in. First damn lap.

I'm up against, tore the whole right side out of the car on the first lap of the race. After you had been told. And it all went way south after that. It wasn't a good day at all. So what happens after you're done driving Bud's car, you get back in, you got your own car, you keep running in it, right? You win Nashville, your first race.

When was that, 74 or 75? 75. 75? Yeah. So how did you win that race? How did that happen? Well. I mean, I know you're good there.

Yeah. Well, always figured if you can't win it. That's my home track. Nashville Fairground. So I don't care what kind of car you're racing there. I've ran a USAC race there and I won it. ASA. You know,

I'd won everything. So if you can't win at your own track, how are you ever going to win anywhere else? And ironically, Keill Yarborough had the best car. I mean, what car are you driving? Where did you get this car?

We built it. It was a Hutcham Pagan car. Brand new. Yeah, I'd say it was probably, probably a new car. Robert G. Did you put the body on it? Robert did all the work.

on it. In the Victory Lane photo, you talked about a guy named Daryl Cruz. Yeah, a big cruise. He's in there with you. Yeah. Your brother, Michael's in there. Yeah, he's standing down the left front corner down there, curly hair, you know. Are you looking at it?

No. I was remember by me. Yeah, but that was my first way. And why it was so special, it was on Mother's Day weekend. And it was at Nashville, and so a lot of my friends and, you know, I'm a local hero. So I beat all the big, you know, all the big guns come down. I beat them. And so that made me even a bigger hero.

but what was special about that race of my grandmother, and she's in that picture, Granny and Pappy, they were, the first race I ever went to when I was six years old, I went with my grandmother, and I sat in a grandstand with her, and she was a pistol.

She reminded me a little banny rooster. She about five foot tall, smoke a cigarette and drink cup coffee, and cuss like a sailor. I grew up, it's a wonder of my languages, is as good as it is, because the guy grew up around. Some cussers.

Well, in the garage. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, there's a language in the garage that probably wouldn't use anywhere else. And my grandmother and all they cussed like sailors, you know, and they could hyphenate any word. It's just amazing. Yeah, that's a talent. Yeah.

And so you won that race at Nashville Fairgrounds. Humor me for a second because Dale Jr. is basically the, probably the biggest advocate that I know of trying to get a return to the National Fairground. So tell me real quick, oh, yeah, there's the picture. Michael right. And granny's wearing the purple. Is that granny in the purple? Robert G.

Yeah. You stand up there. Turn it around where DW can see. Yeah. That's down on the, right behind Michael is my grandmother and my grandfather. And my grandfather was a deputy sheriff in Owensboro. And my grandmother and my grandfather really kept me out of jail a lot. And so she's probably being profane at some sort right there in that picture, right?

She's probably cussing somebody. That's what my grandfather told me. When I was six years old, he called my mom. He said, can DW go the race with Granny? And mom said, well, why does he, I don't know if he, why do you want him to go the race for? He said, every week, Granny gets in a fight with somebody. And maybe if he goes along, he can keep her out of trouble. Well, that's where I met G.C. Spencer.

And that's how I was a big G.C. Spencer family. Like he likes Jimmy Means. I like G.C. Spencer. And had to fly in saucer. And I loved that car. And I didn't, I failed at my job, though. I was supposed to keep my grandmother out of trouble. It never did.

But what was it about Nashville Fairgrounds for those of us that never got to watch races there? Is it, you know, he's such a big advocate for it. Describe Nashville Fairgrounds driving there, you know, in a simple way. Yeah, I think what Nashville, it's a lot like maybe Richmond is today. It's fast. It's a pretty fast racetrack. You have to have some skill to get around there. And I think those combination of those pretty long straightaways

and pretty sweeping turns, always felt like if you could win there, you could win anywhere. Is that right? It's just that kind of a hybrid racetrack. It's a little bit of this, a little bit of that. He had to handle. He had to do this, had to do that, and you had to know how to get around that joint.

So when you win your first cup race in the NASCAR circuit, I mean, that's a dream. Oh, yeah. Things were so different back then. It was such a different sport. It wasn't this sort of national sport. It was really regional and all. But still, you know, you are, you've been, this is your dream come true.

Yeah. Do you, are you feeling that while you're sitting in Victor Lane in that picture, you're sitting on the hood of that car? Yeah. Are you thinking in your mind? I can't believe I just beat Kill Yarborough, Bobby Allison, Richard Petty. I mean, I am at my home track. This is comfortable.

This is my couch. Yeah. But, you know. Did you think, man, I made it? Oh, no. No? No, I didn't think that at all. Not at that point.

I think what that did for me, it gave me some confidence that I could. I thought I could. Yeah. I thought if things worked out, I could win a cup race. I could win in a cup series. What I was most proud of was that was my car. It was my team. you know, you see Jake, you see Robert, you see all my guys.

Yeah, terminal transport. My sponsor, my car, I come into this circus, you know, and I had no idea what I was getting into. And so when I finally was able to win with my own stuff, I think I was prouder of that and I was the accomplishment. What's terminal transport? Well, at the time, terminal transport was, the big brown trucks ran up and down the highway, commercial carriers. They hauled all the new cars out of Detroit. They were owned by my father-in-law's company, Texas Gas. Oh.

And so is that the same thing that was terminal trucking? No, no, that's different. That's completely different. Yeah, that's Rich Bickle and that crowd, they were terminal. I was a whole different crowd. This was a big company. They were out over near Atlanta Somewhere over there

I can't remember where That's where the headquarters was And they like I said They hauled all those new cars out of Out of Detroit on the They were called commercial carriers And they were the brown trucks That ran up and down the race

Up and down the road You know why they paint them brown Because you can't tell when they're dirty And they made me The first couple of cars I had They were brown Yeah They were ugly

And you remember this car Of course you do You're rain man when it comes to the one you're talking about with the terminal truck his first win yeah the orange and white car uh look at body look at robert g body is that not amazing it's the prettiest car did when you showed up to daytona that's it daytona when you showed up to daytona with that car right there yeah i mean they didn't have best appearing cars back then but oh did everybody in the garage walk by that thing oh yeah when you standing in your garage doll everybody knew robert yeah everybody knew he was going to have a nice car

But I tell my guys all the time, we got a lot of reasons to not be good, but we ain't got no reason for not look good. And so I always try to look good. You know, Tony Jr. would say that about when Tony Jr. went to go work for Robert, his grandfather, obviously, they spent more time making it look good. I mean, he polished more cars. Oh, yeah. He wanted to look good. Oh, yeah. So you run your own car. Why did you stop? You got to deal from. Diagard. DiGuard. Yeah. All right. Donnie's driving for them. Yeah, Donnie was driving for them.

running good. Oh yeah. They ran pretty good. Almost won the Daytona 500. It always had something right follow-off. Mario Rossi was a crew chief engine guy and Bill Gardner. This is an episode of my life that every time I look at my career, Bill Gardner, Junior Johnson, Rick Hendrick, you know, they're all little stepping stones. But Bill Gardner on dieguard and here I am a rag tag, one car operation, and I out-rent them a lot. And this particular race, the 4th of July race to Daytona, I passed Donnie on the last lap to finish third or fourth. And it made Bill Gardner so mad that he fired Donnie.

My gosh. He fired him that day. And his brother Jim kind of ran the race team. And so Bill Gardner said, I don't know who, I'm tired of that kid out running me. I want you to hire him? And so Jim said, you want me to hire him? He said, find out where he is, make a deal with him. I want him driving my car.

Yep. And so back in the day, we ran that race on Saturday, and Stevie's mom and dad had a house down at Vero Beach. So when the race I went to Vero Beach, spent a couple of days and came back by Daytona. I wanted to pick up my check because, you know, you needed that money, pay your tire bill and whatnot. And so I'd go back by the Daytona headquarters and they say, have you seen Jim Gardner? I said, not I've seen Jim Gardner. He's looking for you.

I said, why is he looking for me? they want to hire you. I said, well, that ain't going to happen. I mean, I got a better car and they got. I got a better team and they got. So anyway, we start down the road, and Stevie says, so what were y'all talking about in there? I said, oh, those gardeners, I said, you know,

they said that Jim Gardner, Bill Gardner, wanted to hire me to drive that 88 car. She said, what did you tell them? I said, I told him, hell no. I said, I got a better car than they have. Are you crazy? She said, you know how far in debt we are? You know how much money we owe?

and you could go drive for somebody else. I said, well, I'm not going to do it. You will not believe. So we're going down the road. We're coming back to Charlotte. We stopped to get gas at a gas station, and guess who's there at that gas station? Jim? Jim Gardner.

Oh, wow. Wow. I mean, that's just. Yeah. And so I'm putting, yeah, he says, when can we get together? I said, well, I don't know. He said, we want you to drive our car. I said, really?

I said, you want me to drive your car? I said, don't you think I got to, maybe you should be looking at driving, maybe you should be helping me with my car. But anyway, so we talked and we left there and we drove on down the road. And Stevie said, that's it. It's a sign. You got to go drive for them. So I got home and Bill called me and we got together and I signed a deal.

And the middle of 75, I won Richmond. It was my car, but it had Deguard on it. So I ran my car a few races. And I won Richmond in that car that year. It was my car. And then we signed Gatorade. A Gatorade was funny. Gatorade was my father-in-law's vice president at the company,

went to school with Bill Stokely at Tennessee. So my father-in-law's vice president knew Bill Stokely. And these stories could go on forever. But Gatorade was sponsoring Johnny Rutherford at the Indy 500. They had on Indy car. Okay. Bill Stokely, he doesn't know much about racing, but he just wants to be on a car. They go to the Indy 500 Sunday morning.

They won't let him in. He couldn't get his credential because he didn't get there in time. And so his name's on the car. They won't let him in to watch his car run, so he left. And he was upset. So he called my friend and my fond love, my father said, was telling him the story. He said, well, why don't you come? to NASCAR. They won't treat you that way in NASCAR. They'll let anybody. Yeah. I mean, look

at Pitt Road. Highly restricted area, but look at Perry Road. But anyway, so that's how we got to. So I went to Indianapolis, met with Bill Stokely. This is when I still had my own car. And I realized right away, this is a much bigger deal. It's kind of like when Junior Johnson went to RJ Reynolds, there's a lot bigger deal than just sponsoring a car. This guy's got a lot of money. And, and he's pretty, it wants to be, it wants to be a big wheel. So I met Bill Gardner, I met Bill Stokely, and I got Gatorade, and I thought, I put this all together, and maybe I can come up with something. And that's how we got Gatorade.

That is really cool, because Gatorade, that become kind of an iconic car. Yeah. Yeah. The Gatorade sponsorship, that was a big deal. What I loved about that car, Bill Gardner didn't know anything about racing. Him and his brother-in-law, Mike De Prospero, that's where that die de De-Pro and Guard, die-guard came from. Okay.

And they didn't know anything about racing. Mike was a race fan, and he knew a little bit about racing, but he didn't know a lot about racing. Bill didn't know anything about racing. So it was an educational process. That was the only, when I drove for DiGuard, when I drove for Bill Gardner, I had a contract. I thought, what the heck? Nobody has contract in racing. Now, all the crew members had contracts because Bill was a businessman.

Everything had to be in writing, and you had to sign it. and so his approach to the sport was totally different than any than blood more or jr anybody else in the sport at the time and so i never had to deal with somebody like that and it was it was a tumultuous time i started off great but it started off good you did okay ended bad yeah ended bad it is bad mike yeah and how bad so well i was going to drive for roger pinsky so i go what year were you planning on doing that that was 1980 So I was going to drive for Roger Penske. So I go to fly out in New York, get on a rocket.

He's not in the sport. Like he's sold his car to Rod Australon. He had the Matador. Yeah, but he sold his team. And then he was, he had a car. Yeah, Dave Marcus drove it. And then he sold all his cars and everything to Austerlund. So he was coming back in.

So, yeah, you might be right. You know, you're a better historian than I am about some of those things. But I'm going to drive for Roger Penske. and I'm pretty excited about that. So I go to Roger's house outside of New York, I remember where it was. And we have lunch, we eat, and it's okay, kind of made a deal.

So we get back home, and the next day, Roger called me and said, hey, tear that deal up. He said, the deal's off. I said, what happened? What's wrong? He said, Bill Gardner called me, and Bill Gardner said, if I sign you to a contract and you drive my car,

and neither one of us will be in racing anymore. He wasn't happy. He wasn't happy about that at all. You had a contract with him. I had a contract with him. Oh, that's where those contracts come in handy. So all the damn contracts were just getting in my way, you know. They're messing up everything.

But anyway, so I finished out the year of 1980 with, with, with, with, with, guard. And then I, then. You went to junior Johnson. Yeah, Keill Yarborough. I love Keel. He kind of reminds me of Robert G. really, but Keel came to me in 1980, middle of year, maybe somewhere along the way,

put his arm around me. He said, D.W. I'm going to tell you something. I'm leaving juniors. I said, what? He said, I hadn't told anybody else. You're the first person I've told when I'm leaving juniors. I said, you've got to be out of your mind.

He just won three championships. He went every week. He said, I'm tired of racing every week. I just want to cut back and we'll drive for MC Anderson. He said, but here's what I want to tell you. Junior Johnson wants you to drive his car. Junior Johnson wants me to drive his car. I mean, that was like flattering.

Because when I was a kid growing up, I was, I listened to Junior Johnson on my transistor radio. He drove that number three car, that white Chevrolet, and he'd been to prison. He was a moonshiner. He lived in North Carolina. He lived in Wilkesboro. And he had the best car in the sport, and he wanted me to drive it? Well, I was, I just, that, that floored me. Well, but hold on a second.

Before we get there, you, you seem to know it ended badly with Bill Gardner, but you wouldn't have been privy to the information about the contract. So was there, was there animosity? It was very public or so? Oh, yeah. Oh, very public. So you can feel the gaps here. But by the middle of the year in 1980,

you and Bill are not communicating. Not at all. You're basically, I'm over, you know, I can't get out of this contract, so I'm going to finish my season with this 88 car, and then I'm moving on. Bill Gardner he couldn't have been

Maybe he was serious But because you say he doesn't know much about racing or didn't Well he learned fast though He brings Bruce Jenner And a guy and someone else I can't remember who else it was But he brought He brings Bruce Jenner

And someone else to the Charlotte race Yeah in the fall In the fall and has them interview Bill and Bruce and another athlete. Yeah, I can't remember. It's an indie car driver. I forget who he was. No, no, no.

But I can't remember who it. I'm trying to pull it up. But they interview Bill and Bruce Jenner and some other athlete about, he's like an athlete in another sport. Yeah. And about driving this car. Yeah. May Daryl's leaving, but look, Bruce Jenner.

Yeah. Bruce was a, you know, a limpid. Yeah. He might drive my car next year. You know, DW's old news. No, DW's going to be sitting in the grandstand. That's what he said. That's what he held over my head.

I had this contract. It was irrevocable. And you couldn't put a value on it when I would try to find out, what do I got to do to get out of this contract? You can't get out of this contract. You are a rare commodity, and there's no way to put a value on this contract.

And so it took some finagling to finally get around to what it took to get out of that contract. And my attorney, Ed Silva, and Peter Penzer was Bill Gardner's attorney, and they were talking on the phone one day, and Ed's pretty shrewd, and he was taping the conversation, and he asked Peter, he said, just hypothetically, what would it take for, DW to get out of that contract. He said, well, he's got three years left. They'd take $100,000 a year at least. That's all we needed. I mean, that was, that was all we needed was a number. So it was $300,000 for me to get out of that contract. And that's what you gave them? That's what we gave them. Oh, so I thought, I assumed that your contract was going to run out at the end of the year.

Oh, no. It was a multi-year deal. No, I had just signed a new deal. Why did you do that? Well, I was dumb. I was really dumb. I was sitting in the car. somewhere. I don't remember where. I don't know, Dayton, a Taday somewhere. And they bring the contract to the car before the race starts. You must have just qualified on the pole or something really good. Yeah, I was feeling good about myself. I'm feeling good about myself.

But I did learn one thing. If somebody says in lieu of, you better be sure you know what that means. Right. I found out right quick in lieu of, they had paid me 40% in my expenses. Well, my new contract, I wanted 50% and my expenses. Well, I got to 50%, but it said in lieu of your expenses. So I go to the shop like Monday or Tuesday after one of the race. He said, where's your credit card?

I said, I got it right here. Let me have it. What are you want it for? Well, we're not paying your expenses anymore. You're not? Why not? He said, well, you agreed to that. I did?

Well, I didn't know I did. I didn't know what in lieu of meant. So I got 50%, but I lost my expenses, which was pretty large at the time. You guys have an answer in the booth on who this. Leah brought up a social thing. You could read it. This is from NASCAR man. In October 1980, Darrell Waltrip announced he was leaving Dygard racing to replace him.

The owner sent telegrams containing offers to drivers like Mario Andretti, F1 Champ, Alan Jones, Paul Newman, and Bruce Jenner. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Mario Adrian Paul Newman Bruce Jenner Who else?

What's O.J. Simpson doing at the time? It seemed like things were going south throughout the whole team. He didn't care about all that. So, Matthew brings up a good point. The whole team was kind of busting up. Yeah. Robert stuck around though, didn't there?

Yates? He ends up, Robert Yates is working on that car for years and becomes a hit. engine got. Yeah. Did you know Robert Yates was what he was? Oh, well, I met Robert at Juniors.

When I was buying used parts from Junior, Junior would run them 500 miles. Then I'd buy them and try to run them 500 more miles. Sometimes he did and sometimes he didn't. But anyway, so he would, Robert Yates was working at juniors. And I lured him away from juniors to come to DiGuard. To fix the motor issues you were having when Ross was Rossi. Rossi, we'd put an engine in a car.

We'd run 10 laps. It'd blow up. Same thing. Almost every week. Same problem Donnie had driving that car. Yeah. And I'll never forget. So we bought all these radios, like $30,000 radios, which a lot back in the day.

And Bill Gardner had a radio on a big headset on. We run about 10 laps. I said, blew up. He comes down when the race saw, through the helmet, through the radios, and he said, I could have heard that over the PA system. He said, I didn't need no damn radio. So anyway, but, yeah, Robert, Robert was, Robert was cool. Robert was one of the coolest.

Did you know he was as good of a motor builder? Oh, no. I just knew what he could do at juniors. I mean, I knew he built some incredibly good engines up. I got to tell you this. So the first time I go to Martinsville and Junior's car, and we're getting ready for the race. And I said, so what gear do y'all run up here?

567. What? There's no way you can run a 567 gear at Martinsville. If you have a 454, you can. So that was in an era. Remember when Bobby protested Richard and at Charlotte Motor Speedway and Richard for having a big motor. And big motors were like pretty easy to get by with at that time.

How? This old guy, Mr. Hider, I loved him at death. But they pumped the same cylinder every week. I mean, he'd screw things, but, and that, you know, so they just paraphrining the cylinders or, you know, that cylinder would be right and the rest of them be wrong. Just all kind of tricky things that you could do because they knew that Mr. Hider, you're going to do the same one because it's the only get to real easy with the headers and everything.

So that's how they ran the big motors. And they ran them a lot. Oh, yeah. Matter of fact, they tried to run one. Well, they did run. They won, what was that, 83, when Richard had the big motor at Charlotte? Yes. 83.

And they called him. And they called him. Yeah. Mr. Hider wasn't on the business that. I think they'd got away with it, but they put left, Barry Dotson was a crew chief, I think. And they put left side tires on the right. Soft tires.

So they had the left tires on the right. They knew that in Victory Lane. And then I'll never forget, Chief, he's going down pit lane saying, I'm claiming 383 right now, 383. He said, you don't have to tear it down. It's a 383. And I'll never forget that. And, of course, that was another whole story.

But Humpy Wheeler called me. I'd gone, junior mate, the junior would matter in hell. Yeah. He made us load the car and go home, and he left early because Richard blew by me and won the race, you know, and he could not understand how that could happen. But he did. And so I'm at the hotel and Humpy Wheeler calls me. He says, stand by.

You won this race. I said, yes. He said, Richard had a big motor left side of bob. He told me all about it. I said, cheating. I knew he was cheating. I knew it had to be. He couldn't drive by me like if he wasn't doing something.

So anyway, they'd come on and Bill Gasway, I think, was a, might have been Dick Beatty, but one of those guys. And they said they were going to let the win stand. And they were going to find him $30,000. Well, that's the difference between first and second. If I win, I would have gotten 30,000 more. But I didn't. I finished second.

So they took my $30,000 and paid his fine with it. So anyway, that's another story. So the 88 Gatorade team's kind of crumbling apart. They've got it back together and Bobby drives for them. Did you not tell Bobby when he goes to drive for Degard, what he was getting himself into? What was funny was so. So we go. Donnie not tell Bobby.

Donnie is the one that got fired before. So we go to the bank on Monday morning with, I had the $300,000, which is, they're talking 1980, $300,000, a lot of money. So we go in, we sit down, we sign all the papers, and we get ready to leave and Bill and I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you owe me $25,000 more $1,000. I said, for what? He said, are you in the Bush shoot? Are you in the Bud shoot out?

Are you in the Bush Clash? I said, yeah. He said, well, you'll probably win it, and I want my half now. So I had to give him $25,000 more, $325,000. On the assumption that you were going to win and that was going to be the purse? Which I did, but he was right. But I've never heard that. I'll pass Benny on the last lap on the apron.

Benny was hot. Anyway, I won that race. Anyway, but when I got ready to leave. Wait a second, though. Keep going. No, when I got ready to leave, well, Ricky Rudd followed me. And Ricky Rudd was sitting in an outside officer when I walked out. and I said, buddy, you won't last two years with that crowd.

I said, good luck. And that was who took the car. I think he drove it one year, maybe two. And then Bobby got in the car. And they won the championship. And Gary Nelson was a crew chief. And Bobby and I became big rivals. And it was a mess.

Bobby had the same sort of bad ending on, you know, he got, when they brought Sacks in trying to run a second car, and Bobby's like, no, I don't, this ain't what we're doing. No. He ended up getting pissed and taking off. I'll never forget. Gardner was shrewd. I mean, he was just, he was a business man. He was shrewd.

Robert Yates is the engine guy, and they're buying all this equipment for Robert to have for his engine room. And Robert's got a really nice equipment, really nice engine room, and it's all at Dygard. And so the deal falls apart. And Robert's going to send ever the movers over to get his equipment because they had been taking money from him every month or every so ever how often it was to pay for the equipment so robert had bought the equipment he owned it but when they went to shut the deal down the bank wouldn't let robert have his equipment because it was under it was under some big umbrella uh loan policy and so robert ended up with nothing and and that's when robert went and started

of 2018 with Davy and he and his son and you know they did really well yeah so talking about Bobby Allison

getting upset or getting frustrated with the sax car so you were also and dad certainly none of y'all liked the idea of a two car team or a teammate why

no because like all of us I'll just say this and you may have become this way over time. But me and a lot of the guys that I race with like teammates are a necessity. You know, you lean on your teams

and try to make yourself better by watching them. But back then in the 80s yeah, Junior Johnson's going to have a second car basically Neil Bonnet, yeah. But y'all were more competitive with that team. Yeah. Then you were anybody else on the track. Oh, Junior was terrible. Neil Bonnet and

Tim Brewer would be down there, and he'd go down there and rile them up, and he'd come up here and rile me and hamming up, you know, that rivalry. Oh, he would row up the two teams? Yeah, he loved that, yeah. And what would he say to do that? Oh, he'd say, Neil's going to kick your ass. How do you figure that? So anyway, that's kind of how it went, you know?

And Brewer, you know how Brewer was? He's cocky anyway. I got a brand new rollette, got a pocketful of $100 bill. Got a pair of rock ports. I'm doing good. Shag carpet on the wall. Anyway, that's all. Listen.

I like shag carpet, but I never put it on the wall. Oh, no, we used to get in those hotels, like, to Pocono particularly, get a honeymoon sweet that had shag carpet on the damn wall, you know, with a heart-shaped bath. But anyway, it was just, it's just so different. And the reason we didn't like teammates is because we don't have enough parts. Oh. Like, you'd have one set of cylinder heads. Or you'd have one crankshaft. Or you'd have one.

The carburetor. Yeah, I mean, you had a trip. carburetor, you don't want the other guy to have it. And so it wasn't like it is today where everything, you know, you build engines, you guess he gets out, everybody gets the same thing. There wasn't any such thing back in the day as everybody gets the same thing. You had something special. I had a qualifying motor that was special. Well, where are we going to get another one? And that's why nobody liked teammates. You just didn't like sharing. You had all these ideas and setups and things that you did. And you don't want to share that with anybody. You don't want them to know what you were doing.

You don't want them to be equal to you. If you had an advantage some way, you wanted to keep it. How would that get resolved? Well, it usually didn't. Okay. But Rick, Rick was the first guy probably that I remember when I went to drive for Rick in 86. And he set us down. He set me down.

He said, now look, you're going to have teammates. That's the way we operate around here. If you can't deal with that, then you need to do something else. But were you having to fight for parts at Hendrick Motorsports? It was, well, by then, things were starting to, there started to be multiple, you know, the pistons were more, and the parts became more and more available. It wasn't a premium back in, junior Johnson. In the 70s and 80s, the early part of the 80s, I mean, you had things that were exclusively

yours that you didn't want to let go of to let somebody else have that advantage. So there were times at Hendrick early on where the teammate stuff, you know, it was a problem. That's a dad. Rick had to get him on the floor. What was the nature of you and Neil Bonnets? How were you and Neil Bonnet as far as a relationship then? I mean, competitive, yes. I understand the teammate dynamic.

But Neil Bonnet seemed like to me what I've seen is the most likable guy out there. Is that wrong? Best teammates you could have. Is that right? He didn't have a big ego. He was just a, he liked to. race he was a racer i won i mean we ran i won nashville uh in 85 i guess it was i think it was or 84 and uh he passed me on the last lap of the race you can't do that once you take the white flag the field

is frozen and neal passed me on the last lap and came back ahead of me and they said he won the race and this was junior now one thing about junior you didn't you didn't you didn't you know, rules are rules, and he played by the rules. And he was pretty strict about that. So they said, no, you got passed. So Neil won the race. You ran second. I said, no way, we're going to protest.

And Dick Beatty was the competition director then. Had the caution come out? Yeah, here's what happened. Yeah, here's what happened. We're coming off a turn four. Okay. I stayed out because I didn't have a second place car. Neil had the best car.

But they pitted, and they got two tires. Oh. So I stayed out. And so I got by. some cars and there was a little gap between me and Neil, but he was going to win that race if the caution didn't come out. But we're coming off turn four, and the caution comes out. So the white flag and the caution come out together. We're not in the last lap. We're coming to go into the last lap, but we're not in the last lap. And that's what Beatty couldn't get

through his head, is that the caution came out, but he didn't think about the white flag came out with it. And so I was already crossed the line when the caution came over. And the race is over. And the race is over. But then it was a big mess. Yeah. So that night we protested and we went through the rule buck and everything and baby said, I don't care what you say. Bonnet won the race. And Junior don't care because he got both cars first and second. I was he care. I leave that next morning to go to Milwaukee to run a bush race. And I get to the airport and there's a damn caravan waiting for me. And it's NASCAR people. And they said, look, because I thought I'd sue y'all. I said, I got proof. And what helped me that night was Channel 5, Hope Hines, my friend there, had a cameraman on the flag stand with Harold Kender.

So they're filming the last few laps of that race. And so you see me coming off turn four and you see the yellow flag and the white flag come out together. And that's what made them change their mind or change that I did win that race. Evidence. Yeah. So we had them. We knew we had them. I said, I'm going to sue you.

Well, there's three wrecks that whole coming to the white flag. Oh, it was a mess. I think the tower was confused because there was literally three different wrecks. Richard Petty, Bobby Allison. Tires blowing out. People running over crap, you know, and crews are getting into it afterwards. So that next day they said, we're going to change it. You won the race, but don't say anything derogatory or don't see anything.

I had them all the time. I knew I had this one in the back. Let us. Let us handle it. Gotcha. I don't care what you do as long as I get the trophy. That's all I care. Oh, my goodness. So I bet that was, did wonders for team dynamics in that week.

But Junior was right, he was on our side. I mean, he said, you know, DW won this race. Really? So we're going to protest. We're going to protest. I can't help but ask this question. You know, for somebody in his first race that was so concerned about whether your car was cheated up, Junior Johnson. Yeah. I mean, part of his legend is that he could, what do we call it, innovative or creative? Creative. Creative, yes, we called Jack Ghanas creative. Yeah.

Were you still concerned about whether your car was legal or not at that time, or had you come to grips with it? That wasn't my car. Now you're fine. A junior's car. You've learned to cope with it. Yeah. Well, Junior was, he was a pretty big fanatic about a lot of things. One thing about you could not run a big motor. I mean, that was, no, no, you could not do that. And we had a qualifying motor, and I think the limit was 3.

What is it, 358? and we want a pole somewhere and they tore us motor. We won't poll like in 81, 82, want a poll every week. And they'd tear the motor down about every other week. So finally about second year, we'd same motor over and over again. They tore it down. It was 358.000-0-0-0-1. And they were, I mean, they were going to take,

they were going to disqualify us. Because of that. And Junior talked them out of it. I mean, Junior had a lot of, he had a lot of cloud. But that was the only time that I drove that car that I ever heard or knew of us being anywhere near over the limit. That was it. Now there were other things that we may have done that were not necessarily. Like what?

Well, see, we were not rule breakers. We were rule makers. Okay. Junior had a roller cam. They were not legal. But he had figured out a way to take a flat tap it and put a ball in the bottom of that flat tapet and turned it into a roller cam. And so all these things were okay until I came along. When I came along, I said, hey, hey, hey, can't do that anymore.

We had a spacer, this really beautiful piece of work. I don't know who did it. Tapered spacer, no, can't run that anymore. Got to put that away. Everything that had made them special, different, creative, innovative, one by one, they took away. Because of you? or because of me? I was, look, I had a tough time. And I did it, look, I did it to myself. I was a

smart ass. You brought heat, and so when they said, you can't do that, I said, why not? Or when they said, well, that's the rule. Well, that's a dumb rule. I never forget, I called Bill France one day. I said, Bill, there's some rule change they had made. I said, Bill, I'd like to know who the dumb ass is that made that rule. He said, you're talking to him. So anyway, I learned a hard way. You know, I'm a life experience. I called you Jalls for a reason. Yeah.

It wasn't because you were chewing up the competition. No, no. Kail Yarbril gave you that nickname because of your interviews. Oh, yeah. I was bad to go off. Did you know you were bad at that? Did you know that that was incurring heat on you like it ultimately did? Did you put those things together?

Mm-hmm. I probably did, but I, I don't think I cared. I think you tried to use it for your benefit. Yeah, I did. The media, he played it up. He played it up. All we had was the media.

We had to print media. We didn't have Twitter. We didn't have TV shows every day. We didn't have show. We didn't have any other avenue, any other venue to express ourselves. And so I made sure that I was really, really good friends with all the media guys. Tom Higgins, Steve. Wade, any of those guys that wrote, you know, weekly reports or at the track every week.

I was their buddy. That's astute. And I was her go-to guy. And you know what? It really made me feel good because it happened. It didn't happen a lot. But every now and then Bill France Jr. Come put his arm around and say, you're my go-to guy on this, whatever the issue might be.

You're my go-to guy. And, oh, yeah, that's right. I'm your go-to guy, you know. I'm your man. But you know what I love, and Dale knows this. They make rules for everybody. And a lot of times those rules don't necessarily fit what you're doing or your situation. But they try to make rules that fits the entire field, not just one little guy, not one guy.

One of the things that I heard that Junior and his guys were doing in the due car was lead shot in the frame rail. Yeah, that's possible. That's possible. Yeah. Well, and then look, everything... I want to explain to Mike what that would mean. So, you know, they put lead blocks in the cars to bolt that, and they bolt that in, right?

Mm-hmm. And the car makes weight. And so in some cars, and this is not exclusive to junior, but back in the early 80s, maybe a lot in the 70s, they would fill the frame with lead shot, and then they would keep the lead shot in there with a putty or a soap or anything that Mike could get hot and melt. Oh, yeah. And then once it came up to temp or maybe there was a trap door to open or something like that,

the lead shot could pour out of the frame. And then the car's hundreds of pounds lighter. Well, and here was the deal. But the lead shot had to go somewhere. Yeah, they would create situation for it. They never thought about unintended consequences. So the car, let's say the car had to weigh 3,700 pounds when it went through tech. So you made sure your car weighed 3,700 pounds when it went through tech.

They wouldn't weigh them after the race. I was at Martin's where I said, they're going through this, blah, blah, blah, and I said, hey, everything about weighing these cars after the race? And Bill Gassaway was his. In fact, he said, boy, let me tell you something. When that car goes on the line, it's legal. That's all I care about. why would you plant that idea into their head to weigh the cars after the race, being that you were, well, if they did.

The beneficiary of it. If they weighed everybody, I'm okay with that. Yeah, I got that. It's the top five or whatever, but they wouldn't weigh anybody. And we always knew. We had the lead shot in the frame rail. This is what we did. If they put, they didn't have scales like they got today.

They had grain scales. So you had four of them. And they had a place where you drove the car up on, they weigh all four wheels, and then push you off. So if they put those scales in the truck, we knew they weren't going to weigh the cars when the race was always, because they don't load it up,

ready to hit the road for the next race. So that was an invitation to be creative. Empty the car out. Be creative. That's so interesting. You know, when I was working. Where did it all the lead shot go? Could you see it?

I just, I'll never get. So one. At a place like Martinsville or a short time. No, you'd love this. So Dick Beatty, he liked to walk to racetracks every day because that was his exercise. So I'm walking to racetrack at Martinsville with him one day just for fun. We're walking around and trying.

He said, you know, DW, something I don't understand. Every week I walk these damn racetracks, I see all these little be-bees laying everywhere. He said, I have not figured out where in the hell they come from. I ain't got a clue, Dick. I don't know. Gosh, that's weird. Wow. Need to look into that.

How long would y'all run that until, like, Yeah, when does the lead shot come out? Yeah. Lap on? Well, you had to be, you had to be care. You had to be care. Here's, look. Okay, so we dropped a little lid every now and then.

But everybody did. Yeah. I mean, you know, when you go to Martinsville, Martin, I think this Martensville sticks out in my mind. Wayne Thornberry, he'd work for Richard. They would take a wagon down to Richard's car. They would take the car cover off of it. They would change out the radio and the helmet and everything else.

And that wagon had come back down through there he could barely pull it. It was so loaded up with lead and everything else. And so the tires would be, you know, squished down. And so it wasn't like you're the only guy that was smart enough to do it. I mean, there was other ways of heavy helmets, heavy radios, heavy whatever. Yeah. But this is pretty cool.

So you have a jack stop in the frame rail where you jacked the car up. So that's where we let the lead shot out at. And so I had a little wrench. This little T-handle, I'd undo that. I'd back that center of that jack stop out. All the lead shot would go out that hole. You were the one that... He had to engage the...

You were the one. You were like the wizard behind the curtain sitting there at the controls of the lead shot. We didn't do it every week. We just did it every now and then. But anyway, so we're at Bristol. And it was under caution. I didn't do it right.

So undercost, I backed that screw out. and all of a sudden all that I guess that lid had gotten wet or something and it didn't come out and so I didn't know if it didn't come out or not I just did what I was supposed to so we're going in the race and all of a sudden the damn lid all comes out at one time

and I mean I'm in third turn I'm just I'm about to spin out and I finally catch it and I just shoot down pit road well Dave Marcus was on pit road so I come down pit road out of control and they thought Dave Marcus was the one

it was dropping the shot. So they're wearing his car out trying to figure out where he came from. They ain't going to find it. So they're looking at all the cars. They're going to look at, I won the race. They'd look at the car. They take the jack. So here's the jack stop.

So they put the jack and they jack the car up. So the jack is sitting on the hole. Yeah, on the trap. And they could look for a day. They could look forever. They're never going to find it. The jack has got the hole covered. They covered a hole.

That's awesome. So a lot of that was, I mean, I know that sounds kind of. No, it's great. That's what our, so, I mean, I always believe that if your crew chief isn't trying, if that car is it illegal, then he ain't trying hard enough. I agree. And that our job as drivers and crew chiefs and all the mechanics and crafty guys back here, engineers especially these days, it's their job to find holes in that rule book.

Like you say, not break the rules, make new ones. Yeah. And it's their job as an industry, as an organization, to govern it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there were not a lot of inspectors. I mean, you know, there were, what, five or six maybe at the most, and they had to look after all the cars, and so some of them were your buddies,

and they had to look the other way about certain things. But we literally, the things you've heard, and maybe you haven't heard these, but if we had something on the front of the car that we were trying to get away with, maybe we had cocked the nose or move the nose or whatever. We would go to the rear of the car, and we would do something so blatantly obvious that the inspector would walk by and say, you got to fix that.

We talked about this last week on the show. We talked about this very thing. We got to fix that. Okay, okay. Well, we'll fix it. Yeah, no problem. Yeah. It's just like the boxer in the ring that spins one arm

and punches you with the other one. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about this very thing. I'm interested because you just said sometimes they'd look the other way. So, you know, certainly I'm not speaking of the way NASCAR would govern the league today. But Junior had a lot of sway. Yeah.

And he also was very creative and innovative and stuff. And so there were things that he could get away with, I would assume, because, you know, the story that I was privy to was because I worked with Jimmy Spencer. Yeah. And he was telling about that 1994 season when Jimmy. he won his only two races in that in that car and i believe he said something like that junior came up to him and said you know you do a way better junior impersonation than i could but boy if you can't win in this car yeah you don't you need to be bagging groceries or something like that right yeah and and i believe if i heard the story right that nascar kind of was on to what they did yeah yeah but then they

they said don't bring it back yeah and they brought it back yeah and did one again yeah you know yeah well i I know Junior told me, I said 94, I guess when Spencer, you know, I love Spencer, but wouldn't say he was the greatest driver I ever saw, but it's pretty, pretty, he could be, he could be an adversary sometime, but so they won a couple of races at Daytona and Talladega. I think, well, I don't know Daytona, Tadena. And I went up to Jr., I said, you know, what the hell are you doing anyway? He said, boy, we'll win every damn race until they catch us. That's awesome.

Yeah. But I've had a, I love doing this because, you know, it kind of brings back memories, some good, some bad. But the sport today, people just have no idea what it was like when we started to the way it is today. If a guy walked in the shop with a briefcase, we don't even come in here, go somewhere else. Because, you know, it had a briefcase and it had a computer or laptop, yeah. Laptop. We're going to keep laps and tires. Nothing, no, no, no, no.

We got this handle. You go do something else. We're fine. And that was really my, it's probably my downfall. Did you ever have any nitro in your car? Once. Really? Yeah, one time.

Well, when I went to drive for DiGuard in the first year, Donnie, Donnie and Mario Rossi, they've been running every week. Nitro? Yeah. And that's how they qualify pretty good. Who was it that set on, was it J.D. Duffy sat on the pole and rent his car and the nitrous fell out of the frame. It exposed it.

It exposed it in the side of the car. That's possible. It wasn't that, it wasn't all that unheard of. Really? To have a little assistance. A little shot of nitrous. When you qualified. Normally just when you qualified.

But I only got that one time, like me and AJ for it, he was, I think I was on Poe, he was outside or vice versa. I don't remember which. And neither one of us had run. worth a dam all day long, you know, like we're 25th in practice, but we end up qualifying on the front row. And so it's kind of like, what did y'all do? I'll never forget, we take that car in there, and Rossi was a crew chief, and he had put

the nitrous bottle in the petty bar. So it's about that long, and it's mounted and covered up in the road cage. And all I had to do is stick a little wrench in her and open that baby up, and that thing would take off. I mean, I've never done it before. So I was excited about, wonder what this is going to do. Yeah. It wake that baby up.

What did it feel like? Oh, it took off like a rocket. Put you back in a seat. Oh, I don't know that, you know, at Daytona, you didn't necessarily feel it, but you could tell it was going because you're like, you've been turning 7,000. Now you turn 7,500. I mean, good three. When would you do, walk me through the process then? When exactly would you do this?

On the straightaway. I mean, you know. Yeah. While you're running? Oh, yeah. While you're in. You'd go out of the pits. And get up on the bank and get on the back and start down the back.

You had this little wrench. You had it between you and take that little wrench. reaching up and slot and that thing like, and it'd take off. I mean, that's awesome. Go crazy. You're doing that while you're driving at speed. Up to speed, qualifying.

Right, still. Can you imagine how many people wotted up just like, what were you doing? Well, I mean, I had to wrench that thing. I mean, you've got to open it up. I was pretty busy in my race car for a lot. You know, we had, when we'd go through tech, your right side had to weigh so much. So we'd have a block of Mallory that was bolted to the, frame on the right side to make the right side weight be right so when we get ready to and they

put me in the car they'd undo that they'd give me a piece of just tube and they'd put the tube where the for the for the mallory was and I'd take the mallory and put it over on the left side to get the left side weight up so I it's just I bet the worst but listen this sounds really bad I know but it's not because there wasn't a lot of people around to to want to take I had a helmet. It weighed 50 pounds. I never wore it. But it hung in the car.

I had a radio. I'll never forget this. We're at Charlotte. And Dick Beatty. And he comes, me and Rusty and Dale and all we're sitting there talking one day. And he walks up. He's got this radio right here. And I said, Dick, is there something wrong with your radio?

And he goes, wham! He throws that damn piece of salary down his weight about 50 pounds. He said, it ain't my damn radio. He said, you want to know where we're, We got it. And I said, I think I know. I was going to say, I bet the worst day of your life was when they introduced in-car cameras.

That would have changed the game for a lot of people. Yeah, you're just hard to get away with stuff like that. Yeah. The playing field has been leveled. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it truly is. Nowhere to hide things hardly, is there? No.

Not that I'm aware of. Let's talk to me a little bit about driving for Junior Johnson. So you seem to have found your home. Yeah. You seem to love the relationship that you had with him. Yeah. Almost kind of like a father, son kind of thing. Y'all were so different.

You all kind of balanced each other out. Yeah. And you had incredible success. Oh, my, yeah. I'll never forget when I went to drive for junior, he said, you keep that mouth shut, I'll do the talking. You do the driving. I said, okay.

And I was going to move to Wilkesboro. Junior, Junior was really big on leaving his legacy to someone. And he and Floss, they couldn't have children. And so that really bug, Jr. He wanted to have someone to leave his legacy to. And he and I became really, like a father and his son, really. I loved him, and I think he loved me. But what muddied the water was Rick.

I mean, he didn't like Rick at all. They were adversaries back in the day. Rick was the new generation of owner. New money. Yeah, well, it all came to head when one day we had a set of a cylinderhead that's supposed to come from Rear Morrison, and they went to Hendrick Motorsports instead of to Junior Johnson. And somehow, some way Jr. found out about it, and that kind of tipped him over the edge. But so Rick had called me and said, it was in my, it's not 86. He said, your contract's up with Rick.

I want you come drive from me. I said, are you kidding? And this was when Rick was. still pretty new. They were B&R were doing their motors and they were still Harry, there was just a lot of things that were not quite complete. And I said, Rick, I just, I don't think you're ready for me, buddy. I said, but so what's the deal? He said, well, I've got this company and they want to get in racing and they want you to be the driver and I'll pay you $500,000.

That was three times. I went to drive for junior in 1980, in 1980. he paid me $150,000. I was still making $150,000. That's salary. Yeah. He says, I'm going to pay you $500,000. Blah, blah, blah.

I mean, painting this. I said, oh my God. And I said, what's the name of the, what's the sponsor? He said, Tide. I said, really? Well, I'm driving for Budweiser. Tied. So anyway, I think I'm, now I'm just, my mind's all confused.

I'm messed up. So I think, well, I'm going to go talk to Junior about this. And this was when Junior was having it. Things were just, Warner Hodds. to come along and kneel and there was just a lot of things going on and junior didn't wasn't really happy about but it wasn't a whole lot he could do about it i'll never forget i walked this i've had on a pair of little half glass he's looking at something i said junior i need to talk to you about something what you want boy and uh i said uh my contracts we hadn't we hadn't talked about my

contract yet and uh i said but i just got a rick henry called me and i so i laid it all out of what rick had offered me you know and he he never looks up junior he just keeps looking down finally he looks up and he says, let me tell you something, boy, you need to go take that deal. Well, that wasn't what I wanted to hear. I mean, I wanted him to come back with, well, I can do this, I can do that, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Counter. Yeah, a counter. Yeah. No, no way. And, I mean, he never even, he just, boy, you ought to go take that deal. Wow. And never, and that was the end of it.

So anyway, I walk out and I go and I say, well, I guess I'm stuck with what I got. I'm not going to, I'm not making ways. I like a boy. Junior always told me I can't pay you a lot but you'll win a lot. And that was kind of the balance. A couple of weeks go by and I'm down to shop. Got a new car we're working on and I come in. I want to get the seat and all adjusted and the whole team, 12 of them. They all come around the car. I said, what's wrong boys? They said, why didn't you tell us? I said, why didn't I tell you what? Why didn't you tell us you were leaving?

I said, am I leaving? Because I hadn't made the decision. I hadn't made any, I hadn't talked to Rick. I hadn't, so they said, Junior came down and said, this is your last year. Last year. He won't be driving for us next year. Well, man, you talk about panic. So, and this is four cell phones. So I had to find a pay phone fast.

So I went and found me a pay phone. I called Rick. I said, hey, Rick, I've thought it over and I'll take that deal. And so that's how I ended up driving for Rick. My gosh. It wasn't, one thing that happened. And I don't know if this is true or not. Some of the guys, Mike Hill that worked there and some of the guys, we go to Atlanta,

that's in 86, and we got a shot at the championship. It's me and your dad. And we got a shot at the championship. All we really got to do is outrun him and we'll win it. And we were pretty good at Atlanta at the time. And we had two engines. Brad Peirier built an engine that we ran all the time and they were bulletproof. You couldn't blow one of them up.

Then we had another guy that Jeff Wilson, his engines were. make more power, but they were not real dependable. And I'll never forget, we're Atlanta, and Junior comes in Saturday morning, he says, put that, whatever engine that was, Jeff Wilson's motor in the car. He said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not going to do that. We're going to run Brad's motor because we don't, it may not be the fastest motor, but it won't, we know we can finish, we finish, we'll, we'll be all right. I said, put that motor in the car.

Wow. I mean, it was like hamming them. boys they just took the motor out and put his motor in we ran 30 laps blew up and that's how we lost that championship well what i was going to tell you was some of the guys and i didn't hear this until recently oh and some of the guys said that junior walked into shop and said are y'all going to let him walk out of here with another championship i don't think so we're all going up to the mountains and we're going to pick cabbage y'all quit working on that car you can just quit working on that car you can just quit working on it right now. And look, he knows that's the way those, that's the way it was.

You were your best friend or you're your worst enemy. And you know, you could go from best friend to worst enemy overnight. But he's also, but it's his championship too. He's the car owner. He parked Bobby, Bobby Allison drove for him and Bobby was going to win the championship in 71 or two when he drove for Junior. Yes. All they had to do is go to the last race, start that race and Bobby would win the championship and junior didn't go. That's some kind of grudge. That's just, that's what mountain people, they just don't, they don't necessarily think the way you think they should.

And I never, look, I never heard that before and I don't know if it's true or not, but I do know that he bought that engine in that car and we all knew it was going to blow up. I mean, always did. Oh, man. Do you hold, does that still bug you? No. No? I didn't know about it then.

I didn't know about until recently. I got you. Well, what year you were driving for junior when you and Dale tangled at Richmond, right? Oh, yeah. So my question, I mean, that's obviously well documented and everybody, and I'm sure you're asked about it still today. My question to you is, was there ever anything that threatened the relationship between you and Dale? And if so, was that it?

Like, did it literally have, did it threaten a long-term relationship? Because y'all go all the way back to the early 70s now. Yeah. Yeah. No, Dale and I were, we were truly frenemies. We were friends sometimes. We were enemies sometimes. And we kind of had a deal. If I can't win, you ain't going to win either. Really? That's kind of the way it was.

And that day at Richmond, we had a good car. And I loved Richmond. I won like six races there. And I'll never forget. Junior comes on the radio. It's the end of the race. It's about four or five to go. And he said, Darrell, pass that. car now. I said, okay. So I'm digging, I'm digging, you know, I'm getting down in there, and I'm trying, and about two to go, Junior comes out and ready and said, Dural, I said, pass that S-O-B now. I said,

yes, sir, I went down in the first turn, I dropped those left sides off in the dirt, and I body slammed Dale a little bit, moving him up the hill, and I'm, boy, junior, it's going to be so proud of me. This is great. About halfway down the back straight away, like, yikes. Look, I will tell you this. Dale and I, we were up and down. We were all over the place. One day we were buddies, one day we weren't. But that cost Dale a shot at driving that 11 car if he ever wanted to.

I was going to ask, what did Junior think about Dale? I never forget. Dale came over after race, and he was apologizing. He said, I didn't mean to do that. And Junior said, boy, get out of my face. He said, I don't ever want to talk to you again. Because Junior up to that point had thought about and wanted, kind of liked the way Dale raced.

Junior was rough, you know. He didn't mind roughing people up a little bit, and he didn't mind ruffling feathers. And so he was really the watching Dale and kind of keeping an eye on him. I think if that hadn't happened, Dale may have driven that 11 car. Yeah.

But that happened, and Junior, that was the end of that. And that's the way, people that live in that part of the, that's the way it is. Yeah. You sever your tie. That's it. I'm done with you. Some guy came by the shop all the time.

Junior's, I don't remember what his name was, Bob. This is to say his name of. Bob. I hadn't seen, Junior, I hadn't seen Bob in a while. What happened to him? He died. Really? What happened to him? I don't know. He died. Well, he didn't die. I hope not. I mean, he just didn't come by there anymore. In Junior's mind, he was gone. Anyway, look, I had some of the best experience. I learned from Bill Gardner. I learned about how. They learned about contracts, at least. I learned about contracts. I did. When I drove for Junior,

did that one sheet of paper it said you drive i provide the car i'll pay you this much money and that's that was one sheet that was the contract they didn't have in lieu of so no no in lieu of and we're sitting in a little dark office up in north wilkesboro and his junior's attorney must be 90 years old you hear him back in the back room going tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat you know in my attorney he's from he's he went to harvard he's smart guy you know and so we're on once that I tell you when Junior is turn on the side and Ed looks at Junior he said Junior we worked out everything here but what are you going to do for Darrell if he wins the championship? He said boy I'm going to tell you what I'll do to him if he don't.

That's what in lieu of means in Wilkes County. But I learned from Bill about business side of it. I learned from Junior about the racing side of it and then I learned from Rick. Rick was like put it all together. He was the business side, but he was a racer. Sure. So he understood. He had to have contracts, got to have agreements, got to do things a certain way.

So I learned something from everybody I drove for. Talking about the relationship with dad, I can't think of any instance before that race at Richmond where you guys, I mean, I'm sure you all had some, you know, y'all used each other up a little bit. the dad was pretty aggressive. But before that wreck, there was really no big issue. Y'all just raced hard. Yeah. And dad would piss people off here and there. Yeah.

And you were Jaws. Yeah. So, but then Richmond happens, and that was giant. Yeah. That was a big freaking deal. It was. Everybody in the sport was talking about it, and everybody got fined. Yeah.

And then how do y'all move on? Was there ever a moment where you and dad had a conversation after that? Never talked about it. Nope, never did. Even years later when you come drive the Pensacola car, D-E-I, never talked about it. No, I just think we both thought it was probably better not to bring that up. Really? The thing about that day was, Dale was aggressive, a very aggressive driver.

He learned how to do that on a dirt, so he knew how to put people in bad situations, and he usually would come out on top. But that day it was so blatantly obvious. I mean, you know, it just, it was, he hooked me, you know. And I really, I hate it because I wasn't smart enough to think about holding him outside. Because all I had to do was stay upside, but alongside of him. Pushed him up a little bit. I win the race.

But I wasn't smart enough to, I was just thinking about, Junior is going to be so proud of me because I'm going by him. You had to pass it. You were going to pass him. But there were time of wreck. But there were times. When probably the only time that Iver confronted your dad about something he did on the track other than what he did other people, and that always kind of couldn't understand it, but was it the 95 All-Star race when we wrecked? Oh, yeah, off turn four. You know, people don't realize

this, but that was the beginning of the end for me. I'd had some injuries. I'd overcome them, but I broke ribs under my shoulder blade, and I had to have relief drivers. I had to have relief drivers. I up blah blah just I had good people Clyde Booth I had a lot of good people that were working for me at that time but because I couldn't drive had to get I don't know Jimmy Hansley and different ones with great people I love them all but it just to perform the car didn't run just couldn't get the car to run up front like it had been and so they all left went somewhere else but what did he do busted his ass yeah he's on the inside of DW coming off turn four and just lost it well we were Going down the back, and always, Jeff Gordon, which, you know, when I started working with

Jeff, I thought, this ain't going to work. There's no way we're going to get along. In the booth. But we got along. He's, Jeff Gordon's a great guy. Good team player. Good, good man. Unless you're racing against the mentality. Yeah. There are, we all have our moments. We all have our moments. All right. We all let our horns come out every time. Keep going up. But we're, so it's the all-star race, and we got a great car. And I just run. second in the second segment and Gordon's on Poe he won it and I'm on the outside Dale's third and I don't remember who's four and so I know if I get in front of

Jeff Gordon I can win that 10-lap shootout so I'm coming off turn four and I'm kind of turn four and I probably took off just a little wee bit early and I beat Gordon to pass the line and drop down in front of them going in turn one and they threw the caution now I don't know how many times in racing they've ever had a restart, but not any that I can think of. Yeah. But anyway, they came on the radio and they said, we're going to give you one more shot.

You jump him again, you're going to the back. Oh, great. So we come off, come this time, and I had to wait, wait, and he gets a little jump. And we're going to turn one side by side. So we're going to turn one side by side. We're going down the back. It's kind of bomp, pop, pop.

And at the corner of my eyes, see sparks flying. And I thought, what the hell is that? And I look, it's Dale. And so here's Dale. down here, here's Gordon here and here I am out here. Well, I'm in a pretty good spot because I'm going to sail that thing off into turn three and I'm going to take the lead and I'm out of here. Well, Dale's got a whole different idea. He's going to sell that thing on the bottom and he's going to take the lead and he's out of here. So we go in a third turn and Gordon, smart,

as he was, he said, these two knuckleheads are going to collide. So he checks up. He's out. And I go in and Dale comes up and we slide, he slams into me and TV can never do some wrecks justice. I hit that wall so hard. It knocked the breath. I thought I was dead. Knocked the breath out of him. I couldn't breathe.

I broke three ribs. I was a mess. And I'll never get. So we go home and come back over on Wednesday. And so I went to a fine day. I said, I've got to talk to him. So I went, I said, what the hell, man? I said, what were you thinking?

He said, what were you thinking? I said, well, I'm thinking I was going to win that race. I said, what were you thinking? I was thinking, don't you ever going outside of me, hopefully you learned a lesson and walked away. That's harsh. Damn. But that's the way it was. No, listen, he would call me every year at Christmas.

Every year, Christmas Eve. And I would just expect it. One year he didn't call me. I thought, well, maybe I missed a call. But anyway, so we get to Daytona and I go up to him. I say, hey, buddy, did you call me Christmas Eve? did I miss a call? He said, I don't have to call you every year and walked away. And just walked away.

That's the Neller Hard. A lot of people don't know. He was dead. I mean, I just, he could have said, oh, I'm sorry, I was busy, blah, blah, no, he looked at me. He said, I don't have to call you every year. So do you think that there was something more to that? No, that was just, that's just him. That's just him on a bad day, maybe. Yeah, he had this sort of part of him that could be as he could break you in half. Calus. Calus.

Just unnecessarily rude. Yeah. I mean, and you would think, that's what you would say. What the hell did I do to him? I don't do anything to him. We were at, so we were at Charlotte and we were running really, really good. And he came over to me and, you know, he put the R. Hey, blah, blah, blah.

Hey, how much right front of spring you got in that car? I said, I got a 16. All right, you don't have, if I don't know you're going to lie to him, I wouldn't even ask you. I said, I got a 16. I got a 14 or 16. Why? Ah, yeah, yeah, I got a 3,000 and an 8. Anyway, he left.

So we're a few weeks go by, and we're at Indianapolis, and he's running really good. So I said, I'm going over. Hey, buddy, and he's got on a pair, you know, he doesn't want anybody to know he couldn't see. Half glass is looking at a practice sheet. And sit down beside him on toolbox that said, hey, buddy. Y'all are running really good. I said, how much right front spring you got in your car? You know I can't tell you that.

Is that all you wanted? I mean, like I was intruding. Yeah, yeah. Some nerve to ask him back. Out of here. What made him a good friend then? I don't know. There were, he was, there was just two Dales.

I mean, there was the one you loved. My wife and he, tight. I mean, my wife and he were tight. I they got more she got more pictures of him and her and they do me and her so she loved Dale and she witnessed to Dale and she put scriptures in his car and uh they were really really good friends uh and Dale and I it's hard to be it was hard to be friends long-term relationships all the time yeah yeah you know when we were racing all the time yeah if you beat me you took me you took you took

bacon off my table yeah or you did something I didn't like or you know and I think probably Neil and Dale were, that friendship probably was, lasted as long. And my brother, Michael, he and, he and Dale Senior were, they were good friends. Which still baffles me, by the way, because I can't think, well, explain that. Yeah, do that. It's pretty easy. So who was my biggest rivalry when I started? Richard Petty. Where did my brother live? Richard Petty's. Yeah. And who was my biggest rivalry as we went through my career? Dale. Dale. And where did Michael live? He was Dale's best friend. And so my brother was pretty smart. He's shrewd.

You know, they don't like DW, but they like me. I'll never forget. My brother called me one day, and he said, man, he said, I was sitting on the caps talking to Richard, and we're watching a race. And I was telling Richard what was going on. And Richard looked at me. He said, boy, where in the hell did you learn about racing anyway? He said, well, I learned everything I know about racing from my brother.

And Richard looked at him and said, you don't know much, do you? Oh, my gosh. My goodness. That was, I is so different. I mean, you know, we didn't have motor homes. And, you know, we had King Airs, and Dale wanted a jet, and he got a Lear Jet. And I mean, we was always trying to one up each other. And it was just, it was just the way it was.

Driving that one car, he won't remember this, but we were at Texas. Now, I was driving the one car. Oh, the one, DEI car. Yeah, the DeI car, right. The Pinsville car. And we're going to an appearance at Sunday morning, and this one, he was just starting to cup. and we're going over there and he's given junior hell about his setup

because he's got like I don't know a pair of 600s and a two and a half inch bar or something something that unheard of to us and he's telling him he don't know what he's doing he'll get laugh blah blah blah blah blah and he is wearing him out and I'm in the back of somebody

and he reached always says will you please tell him we know what we're doing and I said no no I'm not going to tell him anything You tell him. I'm about telling me anything. But that was a great, that really saved me. You're talking about the right, you set that up. Steve Park got injured. Driving in one car.

And that's the way Dale was. He would kick your butt one day and hug your neck to next. You just didn't know. And so when he called me, when he'd drive that one car, I first I thought, no, I don't want to do that. That's no good. Because they were struggling, Philippe Lopez, and they were just getting DEI going,

and they were buying old cars from Harriet from different people, and they didn't have what they needed and had some good engine people, but there was just a lot of loose ends. But anyway, I thought about it, and I thought, yeah, that's probably the right thing for me to do because I had just sold my team to Tim Beverly, and he would shut the team down while they did some rebuilding, and I was kind of didn't have anything really going on, and so it worked out really well for me,

and it was the best thing that I ever did for our relationship because we did get a chance to kind of mend some wounds and talk about some old times and things that had happened and Dale paid me more than anybody ever paid me before. How many races did you do? What did I do, 12 maybe? Yeah, eight or 12. And when you and Dale had chances to,

you're having conversations with him that otherwise you wouldn't have, what would you go out to the farm? Oh, yeah. When did you find mom? comments with Dale. See, I worked at garage ma' hall. That was my job. I was a greeter at garage ma'all. That's what I said I did through the week anyway. When fans would come, I'd show them around. No, we just, it was just a, it was a kind of a fun time because you're starting something new. A lot of new people. Every day truckloads of parts

and pieces and equipment was being unloaded and the floors were shiny and everything was brand new and the rails up to his office where he heated and the elevated rail the elevator where he put his car when he went nobody there it was just gotten that deer shab me just a lot of fun to hang out with him and yeah right around the back back there where the pond was and i don't know we just it was kind of fun and like i said he paid me well i made i was hurting because i'd spent all my money on that race team and i finally gotten out of and so i needed the opportunity to kind of revitalized my career a little bit and put a little money in the bank and and Dale did all that for me and he and Ty North they both said if things had

been a little bit different and things that worked out I would have stayed there Park would have come back and he would have drove the Penn's Oil car and I would have probably driven the Napa car but it just was timing wasn't right yeah the Napa wasn't quite ready for Cup they came along with Michael later on that's right and they were with Hornaday, but this timing was a little bit wrong right there. So I end up driving a damn K-Mart car. Yeah. That's right. So this would have been about, what, 96, 97, something like that? This would have been 1998, 99. So you were then... I was racing in a A.C. Delco car. That's right. Yeah. And I remember... So y'all are sort of teammates.

Well, we were teammates at one time. Yeah. Yeah. But I'll never forget, he drove Ed Whitaker's car. I think he saw him Poe at Bristol and maybe went to Rockingham. Yes. And I went over there. And I went over to Dale and I said Dale I said what's your plan for Dale Jr. he said what you want to know for I said I'm going to try to hire him he said you stay away from him really he said you'll pay him too down much money he said I won't be able to compete with you he said you stay away from him I got plans for him if I'm you I don't know whether that's a compliment or or like you'll pay him too much money because like well I don't know either what are you trying to get all I know is all I know is he said you stay away from him I got plans for him and I'll never forget he called me said I just

signed a $10 million deal for a deal to drive the Budweiser car. So that's a pretty good deal. Yeah, that's the biggest one at the time. I remember my lesson, my driving lesson from DW happened at Martinsville. He was driving. I was running the Cup Series rookie year. I was he had hit everything but the pace car by the way. I was having a wild one. The whole year was a, was a learning experience. This is your rookie year, I assume, right? Yeah. I count Darrell, um, We're both a lap down or two, and I'm not running great. Daryl's not running great. And I called him and bumped him.

As soon as I got to him, I bumped him up the track in turn one and two, I think. And in turn three and four, he had me up backwards. And I was like, I should have known that was going to happen. D.W. is like, I ain't in real good moves. No, it wasn't having the best day. When I go to Martinville, I don't have a good day or something wrong. Yeah. So that was kind of my go-to track.

I was like, man, I kind of, I kind of knew that was coming, and I got spun out by Daryl Walter. That's like a right of passage. I was going to say, of all people that might take that is kind of a cool thing, you would be the one that was like, hey, I just got it. Oh, no, but he got the raft of his dad a few times, too. What about when we went to Japan? Oh, yeah, that's an infamous moment. Yeah. And the I Rock race at Michigan.

Oh, yeah. No, wait a second. Go back to Jamaica. Do you have vantage points? I've only heard Dale tell these stories. I've only heard Dale talk about the shoe coming at him. And do you have it in the sight? Did you know after Japan?

So you drove the Yates car. Yates car, yeah. Daddy and me were pitted side by side. And he's in Japan going through the motions. Yeah. Right? They send some old, heavy old junk car. Yeah.

And he's just like, I show up. I'm Daly and Hart. I do the Dellen Hart thing. and I go home. Yeah. You know, the 24 and the 31, they got their nice stuff, and they're out there running up front. I had this car, and I'm running my guts out, right?

It's a race. Yeah. So it's a win. Remember, like you said. And come down to the end, like a 10 laps to go, and Dad's got a set of tires in his pit. I don't. Tony Jr. looks over at Richard Niem and said,

y'all coming? And they're like, nope. He said, well, I'm going to bar them tires if you don't mind. I'm coming. They said, yeah, take them. I come down, pit road, put my tires on, come back out. I line up about two or three spots behind Daddy, and I'm, like, trying to get through as many cars as I can when the green flag comes out.

We come off turn four, and Dad's on my right rear. I'm passing him. And I'm thinking, surely, I got to throw a lot. I got to get the throttle down, but I can't because he's right here. He's got to let me go, Eram, we're both going to go down this straightaway, slow as hell, side drafting each other. So I just gassed it and come up the track and slid over his headlight up onto the grill of his car.

And he shoved me all the way down to straightaway and had the rear tires off the ground and the thing driving like a forklift until we got to the flag stand. He let me go and I went on and passed a couple more cars than we get done. And I'm like, man, this is great. I finish like six or something.

And you hadn't even been a cup driver at that point. You're getting a race with these guys. I beat Daddy, which is even better. Yeah. And I'm happy. And I don't think he, that's just racing. Yeah. Right?

That's a big deal. I go into those little trailers they had us sitting in. I mean, him sharing a trailer together, these little rentals. I sit down and I'm taking my stuff off. He comes in and I look up and I'm like, you know, look like he wants to talk. You can tell. I am sitting there and he sits down and starts taking his shoe off. and I, just at the moment that I bent down to untie my shoe, his shoe went right over my head.

Oh, my God. Fast. I mean, he slung that damn thing. If it had hit me, it would have hurt. It would have hurt. And never said a word. Yeah. Somebody cracks the door open and goes, hey, junior, they want to interview you out here.

I'm like, that's perfect. I got up out of there as fast as I could. I'm out of here. Yeah. I never had a problem with him on the racetrack. Well, I had a couple where he was like, hey, tell Junior to stop doing X, Y, Y, Z. Yeah, yeah. We went to Bristol.

You'll love this because I'm the only one that could do this. We went to Bristol and he comes up to me and he's starting behind me and Elliot Sallor. He's like, hey, you boys, Elliot's Young, new, I'm new, rookie year. He goes, you guys, it's a long race now, Bristol. You've got to be patient, got to be calm. You got good cars. Y'all be do good if you're patient. It's the track of each up.

First corner, he dumps the Elliott. He runs in the back of him, dumps him into me. Me and Elliot crash. I tore up. I ain't tore up. Oh, no. I'm behind the wall for 50 laps. Come out with no damn fenders.

And the first time I see him coming by, he's laughing me. And I just turned left and drugged the whole left front tire of my car down the right side of his as he's going by. Because I've seen him do that. Right? Oh, yeah. He done that a meantime. of people. And so he got a little pissed off about that. I never have seen that side of him. I've seen the, I'm mad at you because you didn't do your homework. But I never met the, the mean,

earn-heart race car driver like I'm old, like you're taking food off my table. But in that moment, I think in Japan, I kind of got a glimpse of what you guys dealt with every single week. Oh, yeah. Well, he was, Dale had a philosophy. It's pretty simple. You hit me once? I'm going to hit you twice. that was the way he raced but that's the way that's the way his dad was his dad was rough on those dirt tracks and when dale grew up on those dirt tracks we he was driving robert g's car over here at concord and i was i had a little hot rod shop called walter's racing center over in franklin and so uh i put my name on robert's car for dale to drive at walter's racing center we go over there and dale on the last lap going into turn one he dumps like billy scott or hayward plire or somebody

dumps them and spins them out and he comes around he wins a race. We're all on the trial. Man, I said, yeah, we won the race. Hey, man, we're great. And we're coming down where the car is. And someone's the other direction is the guy he's team that he dumped. Yeah.

And they are hot. And they're getting ready for some action. They're going to, you know, we're going to be some fight right on the front straightaway. I'm running down there. I said, whoa. And I turn around. I'm getting in my car. I'm getting a hell out of here because they were not happy.

Yeah. But it was interesting. to me to watch to watch how Dale operated because he knew he knew what he was doing it wasn't like it was an accident he knew what he was doing and he would do it anyway he couldn't help himself I mean there was something about that helmet and that image and that intimidator and he had to live up to that and he did yeah he did a lot I still can put myself in the room and oh yeah coming in and when I hear I had a 13 hour we had a 13 hour we had a 13 now we're playing right home for us to get over.

Oh, I can feel the anxiety in that. That would be awful. It was interesting. Yeah, well, I knew, though, the only thing, but I think about this, though, Mike, the one thing I knew, though, is that somewhere in that angry man was a proud dad. Yeah. Even though I knew he was so angry, I knew in a couple days he was going to look back and go, that's my son, you know, that was pretty, you know, I like that stuff.

I drove him the way he drives everybody else. Yeah. You know what I mean? But you're assuming that because he never showed it to you, did he? Yeah. Like, I mean, he knew about you. DW knew about the plans that Dale had for you before you ever knew the plans. I mean, you didn't get that information until you walked in and saw that your name on the car.

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, the thing I think about Dale, not think about him, it's almost like he's still here. Yeah. I mean, every day, There's something that comes up as like, well, what do you think they would think about that? I think they would probably be running NASCAR if he was still here, but who knows. But we were at Indianapolis.

I'll tell you his quick story. We're at Indianapolis. We're going to go to St. Elmo's for dinner. And I'm driving. He's over here and just hand out of a car. We get to the exit, get to the street there, and you can't turn left. It's blocked. And I start to go.

He said, where are you going? I said, well, I can't go through there. It's blocked. He said, just go between those two. You can get through there, get through there. So I said, all right, all right. So we're going down the street. And a light up is getting ready to change.

He said, what are you slowing down for? Don't slow down. You can make that light. You can make that light. So I go through the light. What are you doing in this lane? Get over in that lane over there. Move over there.

I said, I pulled the car. I said, that's it. I've had it. You drive. I said, I'm tired of you telling me where to go, what to do, how to do it. I said, you drive. He said, just calm down. It's just trying to help you.

And I think in his, mind he always felt like he was just trying to help you he had an idea about how things were supposed to be and if they weren't that way then they weren't that wasn't the right way so he he he was he was a hard guy to get along with but he was he had a he had a big heart he was an into down inside of him there was another deal yeah but he didn't let that deal out very often he didn't want nobody to see that deal but there was a deal inside of him that was totally different than one you saw on the racetrack.

Yeah. And he knows. Yeah. All right, DW, I hate to wrap this up. Are we done? Oh, man. We are done for this trip. You're going to come back.

We have to have them back. We got, we only got, you know, 30% of the whole story. But we'd love to have you come back. This has meant a lot to me for you to make this effort to come all the way here to sit down and talk to us. And I want you to know that there's a lot of people that are going to listen to this show on podcast, and watch it on TV, they're going to love this. I hope so. They are going to be so happy to hear from you and hear these stories.

So thank you. You mean the world to us. It's so great to see you. You'll have to tell Stevie that we missed her, and we love her, and enjoy your right home. Hope it's a safe one. And we'll see you again soon. Yeah, man.

Well, you do a great job. I watch this show quite often because you have all my buddies on. And I always like to see if they're going to mention me. or not. They do. There's always a DW story in there. But anyway, yeah, thank you for let me be on today.

Absolutely, sir. Darrell Walter on the Dale Jr. Downmoe. Check out Dirty Moe Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.