The Dale Jr. Download - DJD Classics - Ty Norris: Nothing is Off Limits

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

We will never get enough of DEI's story - a tale of victory, perseverance, and ultimately, demise. The people who spent years there have memories from behind the curtain of the team we once all cheered for, and Ty Norris's interview in 2021 was absolutely a testament to that.  From early on in his career, Dale Earnhardt had his eye on hiring Ty Norris, until he finally succeeded in landing him at DEI. Ty shares some of the challenges he faced along the way from both the highest of highs and lowest of lows of the team. He reminisces about his old pal, Dale Earnhardt, and about the life lessons he learned from him along the way - right, wrong, or indifferent. After the Intimidator's untimely death at Daytona, DEI was left without its leader and Ty describes how he dealt with the rising tensions within the company. He eventually reveals his opinion on the only way to have saved the sinking ship which was DEI, which was for Dale Earnhart Jr. to be its leader, which is what his dad would have wanted. An emotional story Ty shares about a father-son moment between Dale Sr. and Dale Jr. furthers that narrative, which Dale Jr. remembers as "the best conversation he and his dad ever had."Ultimately, Ty Norris' time at DEI came to a close, and years later he found himself at the center of one of the most infamous events in NASCAR history - Spingate. He gives us his perspective on the situation surrounding Michael Waltrip Racing at Richmond in 2013 and how he came to terms with the situation following the backlash from NASCAR, the media, and the fans. At the time of recording, Ty had played an integral part in the origins and evolution of Trackhouse Racing, though in recent news, he is now the Chief Business Officer at Kaulig Racing.Ty's interview is one of the rawest, eye-opening conversations that we will rewatch any time we get the chance to. We hope you enjoy it!  Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey everybody, it's Dillenhart Jr. And this week's DJD Classic episode is our conversation with Ty Norris. We go in depth about his suspension from NASCAR back in 2013. Y'all remember the playoff-altering spin gate race at Richmond. He was also the general manager at Dillenhart Incorporated through a lot of its glory years, and we talked about the rise and the fall of DEI. Ty Norris, welcome. Man, this is great.

What a setup. Yeah, we have a lot of fun here. I've noticed that. Man, he looked great. Staying in good health. I it's a challenge man the clock keeps ticking and every time I look around there's a sign there's a line in that Aerosmith song every time I look in the mirror these old lines keep getting clear yeah I know what he means oh yeah well it's good to see you

thank you man I good I appreciate the the Norris out here yeah you even know it was there that's okay yeah that's for you yeah I see that I you know I was a longtime sponsor yeah I feel like I've been around that long yeah no kidding you have been around long time. When we're looking at these notes, we've got a lot to cover, don't we? Oh, my gosh. So, I know you from your time at DEI. Yes, sir. You held a few different positions there, but most notably, I guess, general manager. Yes. Kind of the, you were over the top of all things, all things racing, for the most part. Yeah. What other jobs did you have there? Well, when I started, you know, actually, when Dale came to me about coming on board,

It was actually the 1996 All-Star race. He and Terry Labani were racing, and he almost got wrecked, and then Michael ended up winning the race. And afterwards, he said, come up to the condo, and I got up there, and he said, my company's a runaway train, hop on. And I'm like, what do you want me to do? And he goes, we'll figure it out.

So my title must have been we figured out. But generally it was just start the company, help him get everything established, like as a business, right? Because we were everybody's racers, but now it's got to be a business at some point. And so sponsorships were important, and manufacturer was important, and dealing with all that stuff, and then personnel and contracts and all that.

So you were at the forefront of all that right out of the gate. This is around the time. Jeff Green was probably driving the Infinity car at that time, and it was turning into more than just a fun little side project of dads as it had been for years. You also had the same sort of role at Michael's team, and now you're at trackhouse with the same similar role.

Similar role, yes. And that's going well. Like really good. Yeah, you know, it's... You probably want it to go better, but honestly, man, like that team has had some great runs. Yeah, it's...

What's really crazy about... Thank you for that, first of all. It's nice to... It's been recognized that the team's doing well. I don't know what people's expectations were. But, you know, Justin and I, Justin Marks and I sat in California, summer of 2019 and whiteboarded this whole idea and everything about it, even into the next

gen. And it was amazing when we got to Daytona 500 this year. And we looked at that white, basically a picture of that whiteboard and we're like, every one of these boxes has been checked. We didn't know who was going to fill all those boxes and how it was going to work and who our partner was going to be. But it was really, it's really his vision. And it's come to life. and it's been a, I'm very proud to be actually a part of like pulling it together. But I gave a lot of credit to the alliance we have with Chevrolet and Richard Childress racing because they took a lot of the, we decided we didn't want to be manufactured. We didn't want to manufacture and build things.

That's what they do. They've done it for 40 years, 50 years. Let them do what they're best at. We'll find sponsorships. We'll market ourselves. And then we'll blend these cultures together. And fortunately, Levin races into it. It's been, you know, I'd say,

I'd say overall a success, but obviously like you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you know, then you get hungry. You almost want to race at Bristol, and you're like, oh, oh, we can do this? And then he's, okay, calm down a little bit. Calm down a little bit. Explain who Justin is. So Justin Mark's, his family is from California. They've been in Silicon Valley for years.

And, you know, Justin decided he wanted to race for a living. And he wanted to try his, he'd race for 20 years. He ran EMSA and he ran for, you ran for, Accra and Porsche and a bunch of other groups. And then he got his chance at NASCAR, and he ran some truck series, and he actually won the Xfinity series with Chip Gannasi one year.

And just has huge passion for racing. What I did not expect when I sat down with him was just how smart he is about the industry, first of all, and second, what his passion is for it. Like, he loves racing probably more than anything, other than his girls and his wife obviously. But I mean, he loves racing. And he wanted to dive in to the deep end of the pool

and said, I'm looking at the Cup series. I don't want to just mess around. My family, they do do things big, and that's what I want to do. You live in Nashville, though, don't you? Yeah, that was one of the things. He was in California. I've been here for 30 years, and he was in California. And he said, I want to start this company.

I want to start building this whole culture that blends sport and entertainment. And I need to figure out a place to do. doing he thought about austin he thought about nashville and and we he landed in nashville and he called me up and he's like do you want to come out here and i was like yeah i'll move i'll move right now so you move to nashville for the race team oh yeah yeah i moved nashville for the race team to to go there and be shoulder to shoulder with him really to kind of get everything started because it's it would be hard right now right at the time it's just two of us you know and so we're like we got to build this up and

And we decided, I decided I was divorced, decided I was going to go over there, and that's what I was going to do. What is your, what does the space look like where you are? In Nashville, this space is about the size of this, you know. And, you know, with the intent, you know, someday we would have a, we'd have a team there in Nashville. But your cars and everything are over at RCR. Yeah, and we did a partnership at RCR and to be on that floor to really take advantage of all the processes and everything that, you know, you have to build out. and didn't have to buy a bunch of toolboxes and nut and bolt bins. Like those guys had all that stuff.

So that's what we did. Makes really, really good sense, really smart way to sort of build a team off the ground. And obviously, you know, you just don't poof, snap your fingers and have a shop and all the stuff. I mean, listen. 20 million. No one was as influential as your dad when he was starting his team. And look how long it took us to get, I mean, out of our own way. Yeah.

And we had a tremendous amount of money to back it. And then we go to Michael Waltrip, and we had all the Toyota support, ungodly amounts of money to go out. And we were a disaster for a couple years until we finally got our feet under us. And then we were really, I'd say, you got to a pretty solid spot. So I just told Justin, I'm like, let's not make these same mistakes without burning all this cash. there are a lot of teams that are going to need what we want, and we can bring things to them that they need,

and let's see if we can find a partner, and RCR was the one. So let's talk about your beginnings, Central North Carolina. Your dad was in the Air Force. Yeah, my dad was, he was in the Air Force, and they were in a little mill town in Irwin, North Carolina. They had a big old cotton factory there, and that's what everybody in the town did. And my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my grandma's

when she was 11. And she lived, she worked there until she was 65 or whenever she retired. And they lived in the same house, the whole, their whole lives in like, little, it was like, little, it was a four rooms. And the entire family grew up, go, going to grandma's house. I was, I was, her house for Christmas until I was 27, 28 years old. And we just all piled in there and laid around and quilt stuff. But that was, that was sort of the beginnings. And my dad was in Air Force. And so I was born on an Air Force base and lived in Sumter, South Carolina until I was 12. They loved racing. I mean, that's what my grandfather and my dad did not get along that great.

The one thing that they did get along doing was racing. Going to races, they'd go to Rockingham and Darlington and stuff. And so the first race I ever, track I ever walked into, I was probably six or seven years old, was Darlington and bought a David Pearson T-shirt, you know. So that was my first introduction to it. So we moved to Delaware, no one really knew that much about racing. And so when I was living up there, I wanted to be a sports writer. Why did you want to do that?

I had a good friend. His brother was a sports writer, and I just played sports. And so I always knew I was going to be good. You're very athletic. I was going to be good enough to. You were athletic. So what sports did you play? I played basketball is my best sport. I played football.

I was captain on the defense, but I was terrible. You know, I don't know why I was probably the worst player on there. I was really good at baseball. But my dad wouldn't let me play baseball. And so for some reason, it wouldn't let me play or couldn't get signed up. So it said, play tennis. And I ended up playing tennis. And I went to the state semifinals.

You know, I just pick it up and just go. And so I just played all sports just because that's what we did. You didn't have a specific sport. Then you played everything you could. But, yeah, so I loved it. And I still tried to stay pretty active. Sports writer. So I wanted to be a sports writer because I wanted to cover it, you know, because I thought I knew it.

You wanted to cover NASCAR. Yeah. Yeah, well, I was covering, I wanted to cover professional sports. Yeah. You know, right? In Delaware, racing came to town twice a year, and not a lot of people there knew what was going on with the sport. So I was like, I know who these guys are.

I know what. I kind of know what I've followed them on MRN more than anything else, you know. And so I was 19 years old, and I went out and I was a pit reporter. And I was, for Delaware State News. And I remember being in the pits at Dover and you couldn't have a cross. over then so you'd sit there for six hours and and interviewed drivers when they would blow up or crash or whatever and go get some quotes and my best quote the best thing I ever did a quote I ever got in there was Harry Gant finished second to Bill Elliott one year and I went up there to talk to him about the race and he goes hey'll finish and second the bill this year is like winning he goes we're going to get a trophy you know it was a great quote and so this was around in the early 80s yeah I'd say that was like 84 so in that area that year that year

Were you in college? Yeah, I was, I was a soft, between my sophomore and junior years at Delaware State University. Right across the street almost, right? Yeah, I had, I had gone to, I'd been accepted and had roommate and everything all set up for to get a university of Delaware with all my friends. And then the bill came, and my dad came to me, and he was like, um, what's this for? And I said, well, it's for tuition and room and board. He was like, I don't, you need to figure out something else because I don't have it.

And it was August, you know, everybody was going. And so I ended up having to punt, and I punted and went to Delaware State, and it was right down the street and commuted and saved, you know, money. Wow. Yeah, it all kind of happened. Was that frustrating? Well, you know, at the time, of course, it's frustrating because all your friends are doing it, right? And I remember one time, and my dad passed about two years ago,

but I just, so I could say this without getting him mad. I remember driving down the street and I pointed over to a friend's house, and I'm like, well, his dad works over at the lumberyard, and they can afford for him to go. And my dad came across the truck and power drive me in my chest. And he said, don't you ever compare me to another man? Yeah. You had it coming.

And I was like, yes, sir. And I've carried that message all the way through, you know. And so it's just, it's one of those moments. In 1990, you were done covering races for the Delaware State News. You went and took a job with R.J. Reynolds? Yeah, I was in hard. I was in the press box, and got named Bob Kelly came up to him, and he said, hey, I just read this big old tab that you guys just, you know, special section.

There's 32 pages. Your bylines on every one of these. And I was like, yeah, I laid it out. I wrote the stories. I did all the interviews. I did it the whole thing. And he said, are you interested in traveling? And you interested in public relations?

And I was like, I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. And he goes, well, I want you to come down to Winston Say, I have an interview for the job. and so I was like, sure. So I borrowed a friend's car. I drove down. I actually had a flat tire and fixed it, and I made it all the way to Winston's saying. I'm going to fix a flat.

And I remember I didn't have a suit, so I borrowed a suit from my buddy. And I remember wearing a pink shirt because I was all I had, and I was like, damn, they're not going to hire me with a pink shirt. RJ Reynolds was a tobacco company, right? You understand that, right? And I, I mean, it was like $25 to go get a new shirt,

and I just didn't have the money to go do it. So we just went down there and interviewed and got the job and started right away in 1990. You saw the difference between R.J. Reynolds' salary and what a sports writer is going to make. That was the decision, wasn't it? So we were making $15,500, me and my buddy. And I remember one night he goes,

tonight we're partying like we make $156. So I got, yeah. So you've gotten from 1990 to 1996 when dad, talks to you about coming to work for him. What all happened in those six years that got you that opportunity? How did you create that relationship with dad? Yeah, I've thought about this obviously a tremendous amount because what he has meant to me personally through my whole life. And I remember, so I started in 1990 and remember Dale won the championship. I was there at RJAR for almost five years and he won the championship 90, 91, 93, 94. And so as the champion,

I was a representative for Winston. And so about a year and a half, we'd go up to, like my first time, I went up to the Waldorf, and stayed in the presidential suite. I didn't stay there, but I went up to the presidential suite and got him all doing all his media stuff,

and that's what I was my job, just kind of like getting point A to point B. And he just kept saying things to me, like, I really like you, man, I like you. I didn't know why. I mean, he's much older. He's 14, 15 years older, and I was like, I'm not sure why he likes me,

but that's fun. And so he kept telling me, like, in 1990, he told, me she going to come work for me. And we were, because I remember it was specific, we were in a limo with a guy named Jody Davis, the catcher. Oh yeah. And he was his buddy.

And he was just like, man, I'm going to hire that guy. What do you think? And he was like, I don't know. And I looked down and I said, you can't afford me. I was knocking out 30 grand, you know, like you can't afford me. And he was just like, he and he just kind of laughed. And we joked about it for years. But you know, we ended up doing a lot of things together.

So like, I'd say it's like 93 or so, maybe 92 or 93. He called me and he said, I just bought this. yacht and it's called Sunday Money. They said, I'm going to fly you and my wife at the time, Beth. We're going to fly down to the Bahamas with Michael and Buffy. And I was like, okay, it's kind of a seemed like a strange group of people. So weird, yeah. And we got down there and we ended up forming this friendship and it was like that forever. I mean, I probably went on vacation from 1993 to the day he passed. I was on vacation with him every summer. I was like, where am I going for vacation this year? I was, I don't know. Ask Dale.

know. And it just formed a relationship. I don't know why it started that way, except one time I did remember, we were up in the, by the, where the captain's driving the boat, and we were out there, and Teresa and Buffy and Beth were all laying out in their bikinis. And he goes, look to me, goes, understand why I asked you guys to come now? Well, why? I know you say you don't know why he took a liking to you, but what was the key to developing that type of relationship with Dale Earnhardt back at that time when he was on top of the world? I just, I mean, I think everybody, one of the things that I've always been able to do this is just, look, everyone's a human being first, you know, then, then they have a title. That goes from the

President of the United States to pit bull, to Dale Earnhardt, Dale Jr., to Mike Davis, like, everybody's a human being. He's treat everybody the same. And, you know, I certainly respected what he was doing, but we had more personal time than we had as much as we had professional time. And so when you build that sort of personal time relationship, when you call on somebody, it's like, hey, I need a favor or we need you to do something, he was like, yeah, I'll do it for you. And so when I started seeing that, so about 92, RJR went through cuts. And I was the last guy there.

Like I was like, I'm surely cut. There were like 58 people, and they're cutting down to like 38 or 40. And I'm like, that's 18 people. There's no way they're keeping the newest guy. And Dale pulled T. Wayne Robertson off to the side. And he said, I don't care what you're doing, but that guy stays. Ooh. And T. Wayne came to me.

He said, what did you do to Dale? And I'm like, I don't know. Is he mad? And he goes, no. He told me the story. And I was, and I, like, I cheered up. I was like, you kidding me? And then I felt bad for all these other employees who were there.

But Dale had a lot of influence. And I very rarely shared that because, like, he saved me. And I could have been back in Delaware trying to figure out my next sports riding job or something. But he did that. And I, and I, forever. was loyal because of it. What's this up at the presidential suite

at the banquet and the Waldorf, this note about him messing with somebody while they were sleeping? I don't know about the sleeping part, but there's a couple stories. I don't know if you want the R-rated one or not, but... Yeah, we do.

Yeah, okay. Shelts's got something to add. No, I just heard the story on a different podcast. He was on. It was very funny about messing with... You're talking about when he hung me out balcony or how many out the window? I did not hear that.

But I think you should tell it. There's two Waldoor stories. So when Dale got the, he got there to Sweden, it's like four bedrooms. That's where I met you first time. I think you were like 14, 15, 16 years old, whatever. And up there in the Waldorf and hanging out on the couch and I remember me getting mad at you and yelling at you about it.

But we were up there hanging out at night and he's, and I made a joke to him. he said he came back from dinner and his shirt was really tight and I said man that button's going come flying off there and he goes F you know he started yelling at me and he and then he and grant lynch grabbed me and Hank Jones was there and they grabbed me and we're in a 35th floor and they opened up the window and they hung me out the window so much so that I could see the sidewalk and like I was scrambling at first but then I was like I mean we're a little juiced up at that point and I was thinking yeah just hold on tight and grant they're grant and dale we're probably strong enough and I was, you know, 170 pounds at times of the time. They hung me out and I was just like,

all right, you guys win, you guys win, they pull me back in. He said, don't ever talk to me. I was like, all right, I'm good. And then, I don't know if you guys are talking about the, are you talking about the rocking chair? I was the one about Dale was sleeping and Dale Sr. came in and kind of woke him up. That's when I heard, but tell any stories. Yeah. No, well, the only story I was talking about with Dale Jr. was we came in from some sort of, event, PR press event or something. And you and Kelly had just arrived. And

it's so it's the presidential suite and all that stuff's going on. You got the butlerish mail around. And here's Dale Jr. asleep on the couch in the middle of the living room. In the middle of the day. And Dale came in and just almost like, threw you off the couch, started yelling at you. And that's the first time I really spent time

around that father-son relationship. And I didn't really know you that well. And I didn't know you at all, really. and I was like, man, that's harsh. He was a, he was a, man. He was so hard on you and, like, and he carried it for a long time. He was so hard on you. That was the first time I saw it.

And then, you know, I just don't know that I could ever be that hard on, like, that mean to my kids. But you seem to, you seem to expect it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He was tough. But I don't understand what the problem was, other than being asleep on a couch. I mean, like, was it just the time of day? What was the situation?

People were around. Dad was, dad is probably running wide open from thing to thing, busy, busy, and he walks in and his son sleeping in the couch in the middle of the presidential suite in New York City. And he probably was just like, if I'm busting my ass, you're not going to be sleeping on this couch all day. All right, so let's, we'll get away from the relations and we'll go back to the pre-96. You had, you're working for RJR. Mm-hmm.

When do you start working with race teams and who was that with? Yeah, so Felix Sabatis asked me to go work for him because he was making some changes and he asked me to come be his GM. And were you qualified for that? Hell no. Okay. I wasn't sure I was qualified for the job. I had a D.

Yeah, I wasn't sure I was qualified when I got to Michael Walter. I may not quite be qualified now. But I was just like, there's no way I was qualified for that job, but he wanted somebody to take care of Kyle Petty. And there was a lot of stuff going on with Kyle and Mellow Yellow was there and everything. And so he hired me on to take on this role. And I'm like, I'm not sure why he gave me the GM role. Like it was really a marketing request, but it became GM because it was running the business, right? And so Felix and I talked about it.

And he was like, he's going to be, Thiron. Hey, Tyrone, he goes, I'll double your salary and I'll give you a car and I'll move you to Charlotte. You can stay in my condo. And I was like, I mean. All this sounds amazing. Yeah, I'm like, let's do it. And then I got down there about a month later. I remember coming home and I was bawling.

Why? Because RJ are my family. Yeah. They were my family. And when I got to a race team, I had no idea how much backstabbing happened, how much trouble. I mean, everybody was always bitching about the other person. and you were just all of a sudden you are managing things I came from a culture of pulling the rope in the same direction then whether you were the president of the company or the assistant

manager who had just been hired I got treated like T. Wayne Robertson got treated by Jeff Burden was guy when I got that race team I was like oh my God and it wasn't even Felix's fault it was just a culture yeah and and so man it was tough and I I didn't like it and so Dale came to me In fact, Dale came to me at Dover, and he said, he came and pulled me off his side, and he said, you learn everything you can learn, and I'm going to come get you when it's time. Wow. And I was like, okay, so I did what I could do. You've been a spotter at times, your spotter for me.

You were spotted for Kyle. Is that your first time spot for Kyle? You were testing at Daytona? Yeah. Yeah, we were testing at Daytona, and they were like, man, Brett Bodine spun on the front straightaway during testing by himself. and Kyle was hitting and Kyle starts yelling he's like we gotta get some up here to like just pay attention what's going on and so looking around like who's not doing anything and I'm like me you know I mean I'm just down here just I'm reporting back to you know ownership and which everybody hated anyway and so I'm like I'll go do something so I go up on top the tower and I am shaking and I'm like it wasn't even like the tower tower it's like the inside photo tower and I'm like I'm shaking and I'm trying to tell him what's going on and they're in the pack and all this kind of stuff's going to going on. And I, and Kyle finally said, tie, shut up. And he said, just give me a car color.

Stop trying to say, who goes, tell me orange car, pink car. I don't care what you say. Today something, but don't, don't try to talk. I was like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yellow on your inside. Yeah, yeah, I've been yelled out by several people. So you started working at DEI. You worked there from 26 to 04? Yeah, yeah. Um, and I mean, that was a roller coaster. Oh, my God. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, go ahead and let's dump it out.

Let's dump it up that bucket all over this table. I need about 17 hours. We got it. I need to lay down on a couch, go through my therapy. Yeah. So go ahead, ask. You can ask and I'll answer. My, um, well, you know, okay, I'll just, my memory of, my impression of you out of the gate was,

one of dad's most trusted lieutenants, right? You're, you definitely are, aren't overstating the relationship that you have with dad. And, and he looked at you as, as someone that was going to help him make this thing to what he wanted to, wanted to, wanted it to happen. And everything was going in the right direction. Mm-hmm. It was. And things were amazing.

And, dad didn't go out there and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, pilfer all the best people from all the teams. He was going to do that over a long, slow period of time. But anybody that he walked, if he walked over to any organization and said to a fab guy, an engine guy, or anybody said,

I need you. Yeah. He'd say more than that, but he would, he would tell them and they would come. Right. We were going to have the best people. Yeah.

We had the best sponsorships, the biggest sponsorships. Mm-hmm. This machine was going to be unstoppable. Yeah. You know, and then he died. Right.

You know, and all that changed immediately. Yeah. I remember when we came, I remember when we all, after dad was killed, almost immediately, we all got together figuratively and decided, we're just going to keep going. Yep. Yep. Whatever that means, right. And we did.

And we did, all right. 04 was our best year. Yeah. But that was, for me, 04 was the. the last year. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you said that because I left at the beginning of 2004,

and I'm glad we set you off into a good place, and then you were like, damn, what happened? Things just went, things went after. But let's, I got several things to really kind of go through there. You're right. Your dad had the vision, and he just needed someone to execute it. And as a lieutenant, that's what I did. And I reported to him what was going on.

He told me every day, and like, your dad would always be like, no first. I'm like, well, we're thinking about this and he go, no, I don't want to do that. He's like, why? And he was like, well, because we want to do this. And he's like, okay, now let's do that. So he would make you think, or at least maybe made me think. I don't know if it's that way for everybody, but he would go, okay, just kind of justify it. And so he taught me, and I always say he was the valedictorian of the University of Common Sense. And so he was just street smart. So, and then business savvy, of course. And listen, let's not all. put him on the pedestal that he was he was flawless the man was not flawless we all know that and we all

know that in a big way um but he had a vision and he let you get out there and get after it and go get it done and people quite often knew that if if i was saying something or i was talking about something or i was recruiting or whatever they knew basically i'm repeating dale's words right i you don't go into you don't go rogue on dale arnard so so i had that credibility just because I was getting it done what he needed me to get done. Once he was gone, I thought I was still doing that. And when I, I have a word that I described DEI as splintered. It became totally splintered.

It became this guy thinks he should run it. It's Game of Thrones, man. It was Game of Thrones. It was like, this guy needs a crown. No, this guy needs a crown. This guy needs a crown. We were like, no, no, no, no, no, who needs a crown? Like, no one needs a crown.

No one needs a throne. know it like just do our jobs and we didn't have the the go-to I mean I got into a big argument with Tony Yuri when Dale was around um about just whatever you argue Tony Yuri about I mean it was just something big and it blew up and he threw a nephew at me and I threw an nephew at him and so Dale grabbed us and he brought us up to lunch up in a trophy room and he sat down and he's like what were you saying about Ty again say it right here well well he came down here and was trying to do this and he goes, well, here's why he did that. And he goes, say what?

You were something about Tony? And I'm like, well, I mean, he's just, he won't listen, you know. Like, so you go, he made us talk. And then, you know, we were never close buddies or anything, but we talked it out. We didn't have that afterwards. When someone that wanted to talk about this guy, it just, he found a click and this guy found a click and that guy found a click. And next thing you know, we had all these people.

And then just like Paranoia fell in to Teresa, quite honestly. Paranoia was like, you know, who's trying to get Dale's money, who's trying to get our money, who's trying to get this power. It fell across the whole company, and it splundered bad. And the only person that could have saved it would have been you, but she didn't let you do that. And that was a disappointment for what we pulled together. Were you aware of all this? Yeah, I mean, I was aware of it, but ignoring it at the same time. in my mind like

this is you know you're our guest and I want to give you every opportunity to comment on this to just interrupt any second but in my mind that I lost all confidence in this becoming what dad wanted to be when he died it was never we could try and we had a hell of a 04 was awesome I mean won six races cars were fast cars got power we went in plate races and all the things. I mean, on paper, we had good success, but I just knew that it was without him here to help us keep that vision heading in that direction. We just weren't going to

hit that target. We might end up over here or close or over here, but it wasn't going to be exactly what he had thought, right, and what he wanted. And all of us wanted his common sense. Street Smarts was so helpful for me in my life, my personal life, your personal life. He just helped you make sure not to put your foot in a bucket of shit. And I, you know, we all missed that and I knew we were going to make mistakes. And I didn't know how long we could sustain the momentum we had and the sponsorship support that we had and the relationships that we had. That was all going to be harder to keep. And, but I was, you know, we just kind of just started, we just, we just kept going forward.

And if that meant, you know, whatever that meant, right. And it was like, it's like, it's like, it's like we were propelled. Yes. We were cast out. We were propelled right from the, we were launched from the pad. And there was like, we're going to go for a while. And we went 2002, 2003, 2004. And it was like, eventually we going to come back to Earth.

Yes. We didn't have any more fuel. That's right. It's like a rocket. Exactly. Shot up there. Because we had a tremendous amount of on-track success despite ourselves after Dale passed away. And that's why I tell people.

Like, man, we actually did a lot of great things after he passed. But it was not sustainable. And I'm talking about myself personally because I had a lot of days in the mirror. You know, personally and professionally, I had a lot of days in the mirror. And I look back on some of the things I did on like, I would have punched myself. I think I was a total ass of a time. and it was an ego thing. It was like, I was like, we're going to do this.

And I was pound my fist and say, damn it, this is how we're going to do it. And everybody's like, who's the, excuse me? Who are you shut up? Like, and then I'm like, well, what? And then I would bow up. And so I've always told people that said, if you're nice to me, I'm nicer to you.

Yeah, yeah. If you're mean to me, I'm meaner to you. You punch me, I'll punch you harder. And I don't know why I'm that way. I'm just built that way. And when people were coming at me, I was like, I was bowed up. Yeah.

And then people are like, what a n-h-h-h-gare that guy. I remember that. You were, and it was, you're right, it's exactly, it was in your personality. I don't know how much you've changed. I'm sure everybody changes and becomes better versions of themselves, I hope. But I remember that. Like, you, if, I remember going into your office and having some of the best conversations and feeling like, man, we are on the same damn page.

we both got the same feeling about this. And then I remember days going into your office and going, this couldn't have ground, the gears couldn't have ground any harder against each other. Right. We're pulling against each other. Yeah. And you were, I think you were,

I kind of felt bad for you because there were some times when you felt like the whole place was against you. you then you had you had this you had Teresa over the top of all of it kind of making things

difficult to understand didn't know you know it was just she was uh you probably had her ear all the time but um so maybe maybe you didn't I don't know but

the information from her and what direction she wanted this to go she wasn't as open about that as dad was was, right, dad would, here's my vision, everybody. Yeah. Everybody on the same page. And Teresa wasn't stand up in front and tell a story, right? And tell us what's about to happen.

Yeah. She was behind the curtain and quiet. Literally. Yes. Literally behind the curtain. And so I know you had her, you had more conversations with her, but anyhow, it was hard. And I know this isn't doing a good job of describing it, but there were days when, I'd walk into your office and it was

the freaking mood in there was so bad. Yeah. But then there were days when it was complete opposite. Yeah. You know? And it's, I remember him very well and I, I, because I'd hear all the bitch and whining and all this kind of stuff that's going on.

Some of it was about you and not paying attention and not being around, not doing this and been out part of it on whatever, whatever they were wanting to bitch about that day. And so who was going to be, who was going to be the guy? had to say something to you. Right. It had to be me. Yeah.

And so, I mean, Colin Powell said one time, if you're going to ever be a leader, you're going to piss off more people than you make happy. And you have to do that, right? So I had to take that risk to be that way. The problem I have, I had, even with myself, I didn't have the credibility to do it. Like, I had it when your dad was there because they knew I was sort of doing what he wanted. And I had that credibility and everything was built. But when he was gone, it wasn't like I had Teresa.

You know, it wasn't like I was speaking on behalf of the ownership. I was, it was like me, right? Yeah. I mean, like, you know, they could blow it off pretty easily. Yeah. And then, you know, probably the biggest event we had was when you and Michael came to my office one time and said, it was December is right the day of the Christmas party of 03. Jeez. You know this story?

You guys came to my office and you're like, we've been talking last night, we were talking last night and we haven't been paid since September. Ugh. You remember that? now he said we haven't been paid since September and you guys have breached my contract and I'm like ho ho time out and they're like how come you haven't paid me and I'm like well I sign all these every operational check except for one account and that account pays you guys and that's Teresa and you're like well I want to talk to it right now and you're mad as hell and I'm like I don't know and you're like well I'm going to go out and find out what I'm really worth and you had just

signed your deal you had just signed an extension and I'm like just through 07 or something. I'm like, just calm down. We'll get this worked out. So let's call, let's call Tracy and get it down here. This is probably like 11 in the morning. So we called Teresa's office, call the house, and an hour goes by. And you're getting madder. And then they're like, and she's like, well, Judy, when's she coming down? Well, be 30 more minutes. And we waited another hour. So you were getting mad, so you left. And you and Michael, and Richie Gilmore were there. And I came back. And then finally I said, listen, do not attack her. Do not make this personal

when she shows up. This is a contractual issue. This is business, right? So I went on my computer and I typed up a bullet point of things I wanted you to say and say it this way, all right? Be ready because when she comes in here, just like have a professional conversation. We're like, all right, cool. She finally shows up. We waited

three hours. She walks in and Junior is so mad. He starts yelling at her. Been waiting down here for three damn hours and he just starts jumping her, jumping her case and he's like, y'all haven't paid me, you breached my contract,

and that's how the conversation started. And I was like, oh, and I'm trying to, like, mediate, but it was, it was over. And it just became like, it was bitter. And so this whole meeting left, and you said what you wanted to say, and you didn't want to stick around along,

you'd stay long enough, and you left. And I was sat there, and Michael didn't say a word. And he and Richie left, and Trice looked at me and said, you ambushed me. Oh, Lord. Yeah, she goes,

you ambushed me and I said Teresa I did not I said I'm trying to I'm trying to resolve an issue I don't have access to pay these guys she was just like you just she goes you care more about Dale Jr. and you care about me and I said caring about Dale Jr. is caring about you and and she made a comment she goes well if Dale Jr. doesn't want to stick around here we'll make another Dale Jr. And I was like do you speak French who's we? Like there's not another Dale Jr. Jeff Gorge can't do it. There's no one can do it. Like, we, we have to resolve this issue. And she was so mad at me that she didn't talk to me for another month until she said, you can sign this paper or this paper. One is a termination, or one's a, you can quit. And the other one is you can take a rejection.

And it was all over. A reduction? Yeah, like a 37% reduction in salary. Are you, yeah. And she said, 67%. She was knocking me down as a lesson I made when I first started there. and she said you can sign one of these two and I'm like this is over this meeting we had with the drivers and she was like I've been hearing so much stuff lately I just don't want to talk to you anymore and I lost my school

and it made it worse and so anyway that's that was the end I said I'll be here until we load them up to go to the Daytona 500 and we load them up through the Daytona 500 be my last day oh my god yeah that was an And that was, and it was all, she thought I ambushed her. So I kind of, damn. Without that, though, how long do you think you would have lasted at DEI?

Without that incident, I mean, it sounds like ever since 2001 at Daytona, like everything was just trying to go in auto, you know, auto mode, but y'all could feel that the, the, stability was going away. And did you see the end? Did you think the end for you was near? I'd tell you what, I felt like we could have been together a long time. And what gave me some hope was when in September that year of 03, Junior signed his contract.

And I got called to Teresa's office by Teresa. And Jr. was in there. And I think Kelly was in there. Were we hollered, scream? No. You were signing your contract. You were signing your contract. And Teresa said,

Jr. signed his contract. And he said there's just a few people around here that he wanted to make sure we're going to be here. And you're one of them. and I was like, I'm never going anywhere. You will have to drag me out of here, and they did. But, I mean, you'll have to drag me out of here. And they didn't really.

I walked myself out of there. But I was like, but I felt like it. But I was like, I'm not going anywhere, man. And I just, my heart for that place was more than I had. I gave more to that place than I gave to my family. I didn't go to a lot of kid stuff. I didn't, I wasn't home a lot. I was gone every weekend, and I was just like, that place meant everything.

And sometimes the people say, listen, you've got to honor the living more than the dead. And I was just honoring that, man. I was trying so hard and so hard that I think I just, I wasn't, I wasn't old enough. I wasn't mature enough to handle what had been dropped on us. And I don't think any of us were. I certainly wasn't. And so anyway. And then when all that went down, you know, I was like,

it'll be all right we'll talk it out and then everybody was like all right move on so tough day yeah you know we we jumped right to the splintering into the bad stuff and i'm curious because to help me put into context of how bad it was and and you guys going to this we skipped all over the good stuff when was it at its best when and i'm assuming it's pre-2001 of course so is it 2000 is it 99 when and also was Dale's vision did did I mean when you talked about his vision when he first had a conversation with you he's like we'll figure it out when we get there yeah what was Dale's vision for the place did it get achieved and was there any room in this vision for DEI to succeed well beyond his existence at it yeah yeah for sure I did worry about what he would be like as an owner not driving because he liked to be involved everything and I was like and I want to call meddling, but he definitely was involved in everything. So I was all worried. I'm like, if he gets bored, boy, he's going to be hard on us. But as far as the best times, the sport was on this trajectory. And we were right at the front of that wave. And we were catching. We were

catching the Hendricks of the world. And we were catching the big teams of the era. And Roush was kicking ass every time you turned around at the time. And we were right there with them. And we were coming on their heels and we were we were like we are building something really special here and the problem we had with it is we never realized it we only realized it looking back is more so than when we were living it and that happens probably to a lot of things and a lot of different times but we didn't know how good we had it and then I don't think our best years were leading up to it I mean we were we we went at Daytona 500 for Steve Park in 1998 and we did not get an engine until after third round qualifying,

when we got Dave Marcus' RCR engine. We qualified with an engine that couldn't make 10 laps. And we couldn't even practice. And then we ended up, we were qualifying in the back. We had to run third round qualifying with Dave Marcus's engine after he got done with it. I mean, that's how bad we were trying to get started. And so I would say, I mean, the golden years were really,

I mean, 2001, 2002, really, three, I mean, we were on the trajectory. doing really well, bringing on new partners, bringing on new sponsors, extending them. And honestly, I mean, I think we ran 11 speedway races and won eight of them, finished first and second and four of them. And then we just kind of piled everything else around it. And you started winning at Richmond and started winning at Phoenix and we started getting

competitive at other places. So anyway, I don't know that Golden Era was before Dale's accident. But that's when the root system was being put in. I mean, like, I think you guys were probably. were experiencing the ramifications of all the buildup from 99, 2000, 2001. He shows up as a rookie, sets a world on fire, got the big sponsor. So you guys, it sounds like you were able to carry that out for several years. We were, and I think what it actually probably created this sense of, you know, just, I don't know,

we were probably a little too high on our horse. We probably thought it was too easy. We thought we had it all covered. You thought you were invincible? We were totally invincible. And so we were invincible on and off the track. So, I mean, we'd go do stuff off the track that we wouldn't be proud of today. I mean, me personally, I wouldn't be proud of it today.

And then I was, you know, it's like you're in town, Dale and Hart Incorporated, you're the big, you're the big cheese, you're the big news. And then we go to the racetrack and race like hell and be competitive, win races. and we'd be like, yeah, we're the guys. And it led, it really, really, really fueled the egos across the board, whether it was the engine shop or the fab guys or me and everybody. So it just kind of, it's sort of our success started getting to our heads collectively to where everybody was smarter than everybody else. And it just created, ultimately created some problems.

Who was the leader then? Is it you? Well, does everybody agree with that? I remember talking to Mr. France. Bill Jr. Mike Helton asked me to come to his office, and I went to see him and Mr. France one day. This was in 03, O3. And we went into his office, and Mike and I were talking about what's going on at DEI, what's going on with Teresa, what's happening at the place, and who's leading it. And I told him a few stories. And he goes, we got to go see Bill. So we go into Mr. Francis's office, and we're sitting there, and I had never been in his office before, and I sat there, and he starts asking me his question. Just tell me about it, tell me about it.

Tell me about it. Oh, really, really? Uh-huh, yeah, that's great. And then he goes, well, I don't know why you're bitching about. That's your f*** job. And I'm like, oh, he goes, well, then that's you. It's not Teresa. That's not Steve.

That's not somebody else. That's not you. So what you do your job? And I was like, yes, sir. Damn. Yes, sir. And so I tried to stop bitching and complaining and just do what I could do and try to be the leader, try to be the leader. And that's when I'd go to those

rooms and those competition meetings and everybody was talking about all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, well, this is how we're going to do it. And they're like, you know, see you. You know, and so I mean, I just took it too far, I guess. And but I remember that. I remember when you came in, you completely had changed your approach. Yeah. And it was more like you're going to try to wheel it into existence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You pound the desk. I remember pound the desk with the Bill conference table one time. I remember pounding it's like, as long as I'm in this position,

this is what it's going to happen. And everybody's like, uh-huh, oh, it's probably not going to be long then. My gosh. So when you got, when you left, where did you go? So NASCAR was actually building that. Actually, when I left,

I went to work for Bruton Smith. Doing what? Yeah. Doing what? I still don't know. And that's why I left. So Bruton, we had graded dinner in Daytona,

and we all talked a couple different groups about that i was talking to rich i was talking to chippin ass i was talking different people and um rutin said marcus is going to take over to his company and he said um i really want him to know a lot more about what happens in the garage i really want you to spend some time with him i really want to work on special projects and i've got this licensing company over here that i can do some things with and i'm thinking about some other businesses and i'm thinking about all this stuff and i'm thinking i mean you got all these ideas and he goes i want you to help me put all this stuff together and then he told me he said eventually he said i want you to learn our

side of the business because when humpy wheeler retires i want you to i want you to think about that that role and i was like oh my god like humpy's a legend and i'm like okay and that was the conversation and i went to work for them under that under that guidance right and and i had to conversation with Humpey one day and he was like, I'm going to be here for 10 more years. And like, I don't know what anybody's talking about. I'm never leaving. And then, and I was, I had a real struggle, was trying to pull SMI presidents together. I mean, trying to make them do, you know, sort of, you know, aggregate their power. They didn't want to hear it. You know, Sonoma doesn't want to hear about Texas. And Texas didn't want to hear about Atlanta. And I was,

yeah. So I was just, I mean, for weeks, I mean, of months, actually, I was just kind of, and so finally, and I'll tell you the deal. He gave me half my salary up front, and he said, I'll give you the other half at the end of the year. And I went to him and said, I want you to take your stock options back, and I want you to take not ever pay me that dime. I didn't earn that money. I said, in one of these days, I'll probably pay you back the money you paid me. And he was like, why?

And I was just like, I don't, I didn't contribute. I don't feel like I did much. I feel like I was just spending my time. And then, you know, Michael called me. And he was like, Toyota's coming, and I really want to be a part of that. And he's like, do you want to come talk about that? And I did. And so I moved on down the road.

I loved my interaction with Bruton. I think Marcus Smith is one of the nicest human beings ever born to this earth. And I do anything in the world for that guy. And I really enjoyed my time around them to get them known personally. I just never contributed professionally. I didn't think. Not like I was used to contribute. So you end up, then you went right to Michael's?

Yeah, and I had about... What year did you start working for Michael? O five. So, okay. Dang. Yeah. Are you looking over at DEI and watching what's going on there? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. What are you thinking? We talked about that a lot. And I always try to tell people that... Because Michael's now out of the I. Yeah. You're out of DEI.

Yeah. And at first 06, we ended up doing a deal with Bill Davis because we transitioned Napa for a year until we got into the Toyota stuff. and I remember I remember paying attention to your stuff a lot and watching a lot of these things go down and remember Paul Menard had started

and he brought a ton of money and they didn't have points and they were missing races and we were all of us were missing races at time and I remember Max Siegel came over and John Story Max was the CEO at the time yeah and he came over to DEI

and he's like I'm going to have to well it's autonomy. I'm going to run this company, right? And he came up to me at Pocono, actually, a weird place. And he was like, you and I need to talk. And I was like, I've been wanting to talk to you for a long time. And I said, man, but I'm not going to say anything bad. I mean, I'll listen to you, what you got, what you're dealing with, but I'm going to say anything bad. I just, I've said enough. So we had a conversation. I listened to it, and I tried to give him some advice against it. But he was telling me what's going on. They ended up buying MB2 Motorsports.

That's right. And they bought MB2 Motorsports to help. get points for the 15 for Paul Menard and then they didn't extend the Menard's deal. They should have extended two or three years. They didn't do it. And so you left in 06, at the end of 06, right? 07. At the end of 07. And then Menard's left in the next year.

And that was it. I mean, DEI was gone. And I had said it, when I was yon, when Teresa and I got into our big fight in 04, I was like, if you don't change the way you were doing, business right now you will be out of business in three years was max segal and john story four and a half i mean what was the hiring of max and john her attempt at trying to change the business i think so i mean look teresa was trying everything she could i i'm not i'm not saying i mean she was trying to do everything she could she didn't want that spot yeah she didn't ask for that

spot she didn't ask to become the owner to have to have a lot of responsibility she didn't want to have to have people mad at her she didn't want that she but it just came on her because this treadmill is going about 20 miles an hour, and if your little legs aren't going, you're going to get spit right off the back, and people just don't want to do that all the time. So I was frustrated with her at the time, but if I took myself and put her in that spot,

I mean, she never got asked to be in that role. I understand that, and I've always felt that way, too, that she never, this was never her wish to be in this position and as the owner of that team, but she also didn't, and she also didn't, like, release the control. role and the power to someone that could run it. Yeah.

She did have a struggle with that. She didn't trust anybody. And I'm going to tell you why she didn't trust anybody. Because there were individuals in that company who spent a lot of time with Teresa at her house, on vacations, telling her you can't trust anybody. Yeah. And she was influenced by that. And I would blame them just as much as anybody else.

Yeah. Wow. Interesting. So in the early years, I mean, like, you think that she changed, you don't think that this like territorialism or this, you know, trust issues was something that she was born with. This wasn't who she was. You think it's developed by getting, quote, unquote, bad advice?

You know, I don't, I didn't know her whole life, so I don't know if she ever had trust issues before. I just know the time that I spent with her all those years, we would go down the boat, all those years building that company. she was the sweetest human being to me. And she was always great. And she was so gracious. And she knew I was a lieutenant.

I wasn't trying to be a general. I was trying to be a lieutenant. I was trying to be the best lieutenant you ever saw in your life. And that's all everyone to be. And then, and I think she loved her role. Like she would have her input and she could go do her thing. And she'd have her input. And then I think that role overwhelmed her in addition to losing your husband.

in addition to trying to figure out life, in addition to trying to figure out kids, in addition to trying to figure out 300 people and keeping them fed and all the foundation stuff that's been, like all these things. And so I think her whole universe came down to Judy and Pat Lagare. Yeah.

You know, and those were her friends who she knew she could trust and everybody else was sort of up in the air. And I think the whole circumstance sort of just led her that way. But, I mean, she was incredibly nice to me for years. One of the other things I think that was a big, big, big part of her every day was the

autopsy photos. Yeah, she had to go right into a fight. Yeah, and that consumed a ton of her time in the, I don't know how many years after dad died. Yeah. She was traveling regularly to be in the right rooms to try to fight that

battle. Yeah. And that seemed pretty critical to her. I didn't realize at the time how important it was, but yeah. She was, like you say, she had that going on. of the late you know all of all of the things that just sort of fell into her lap unracing related dealership all the businesses the boat the house that hadn't been finished the boat was almost finished

and people like what are you going to do with the boat i don't know what i'm going to do with the boat you know she was she had a lot of stuff going on and when she needed more people she made it less oh and so i used to call her up and i say hey i need about i need about 30 minutes with you today she's like well i can't see today i'm like all right well a couple days ago I'm like, hey, I need about an hour with you now. And then finally, she'd come in there. She'd fling the door open. She goes, you got 10 minutes.

And I'm like, I said, go find somebody else's got needs 10 minutes because I need about two hours now. I was like, you need to go find someone. She was, you're such a smart ass. And I'm like, I'm just telling you, we're just, I can't even, I can't even set up the story in 10 minutes. Yeah. To tell you to get a decision. So, you know, it was tough on her, man. I look at it.

It's everybody. And then the thing I'm most proud of, and I've said this to Dale Jr. a thousand times, like, when I, I first saw you on the couch all the way to when you started driving for us to when, I'm going to tell you the story about when I had to wrestle you up out of bed to go accept Dale's most popular driver award. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Everybody's got a story like that. And to your racing career and what switched, the switch that went off when you went to Hendrick and the switch that went off when you met Amy. Like all those things, man, every time I see you, I'm like, that guy is a model, a role model.

Oh, shoot. I'm telling you, for becoming a man, because we've all had our days where we're sitting there running around and we think we're better than everybody else and we think we're smart and everybody else. Certainly, you know, disrespectful to my own marriage, all these things that I was, all those years, like, I didn't care. I was just out part and having a good time. And then finally, you look back and you're like, man, there's a transition time. in your life where you go like, this more important things are these things. And I've seen that in you.

And it's like, and I'm not trying to just be blowing someone. I mean, like, I grew up with you, you know. And so like I, when you say, I hope people change, I look back in my DEI days and I'm like, I wish I had seasoning. Yeah.

You had the seasoning so you go back in there and go handle situations differently instead of attacking, absorbing, you know? And those things are only learned with time and experience. Yeah. No, I'd love to do it all. all over again because we could have done it definitely we could have done it better yeah um we could

have made it last but um so what was that in new york city but yeah so i a couple of new york city this is so funny so i new york city was a bad town for you was it so i'm uh there was a bar down there called at the hotel no in new york city in the meatpacking district Oh, hogs and heifers. Yeah, hogs and heifers. Shrader and Petrie and all them are like, hey, tonight's the night. Hogs and heifers, we're going. You going?

I'm like, sure, I'm going. Jump in our cab. Here, I'm getting in your cab. And they leave at 2 o'clock in the morning like they're supposed to, and I've stayed. Right. Until six or seven in the morning. If I remember this correctly, there is a, the morning. That was when they had the Myers Brothers Breck.

Right. Eight o'clock in the morning. Right. Painful. Right. Like, I literally haven't been back to the hotel but for an hour. Yeah. And he came up to get me.

So, so I'm in, I'm at the breakfast and I'm, I'm a little rough for the night before too, but I'm sitting there. And so all those years that we knew Dale Sr. should have won the most popular driver award. He didn't. Yeah, Bill won. Bill Elliott won it every year. And so Dale never won it. And so he gets it posthumously. So he gets it in 2001.

Bill laid out of the vote. That's right. And I forgot about that. And so Dale wins the award. So they're like, we need Dale Jr. to accept it. And so there's a couple of things about this. Now, we rewind the clock to earlier in the year after Dale's accident.

And I had sponsor after sponsor who were working with Dale come in and say, well, what are we going to do now? Oreo, Remington. you know, not the good wrench guys, but the Burger King guys. And they were like, well, we need Dale Jr. And every time you turn around, Dale Jr. was having to carry

what was just left by Dale. And so, and he's like, man, the only reason why you guys want me is because Dale's not, dad's not here. The only reason why you want me. And like, it wasn't like, I'm not your guy. You're not my sponsor. You know, it was like a fight.

It was always like, and they were like, oh, well, you need to come do this interview to talk about your day. And like, all this shit, right? And Dale Jr. was like over it. So we get to New York, you got to go take this award, man. You need to accept this award for your dad. And he was just like, I'm not doing it.

And so they're all for the breakfast and they start the stuff. And I look at, I think it was Jade Gers. And I'm like, or Steve Chris, one of those two. And I'm like, hey, man, where's Jr? He's in the bed and he says he's not coming down. And I was like, what? And I'm like, he has to. And I'm like, give me a key because they had a key to your room.

Yeah. So I go in there, I open up the door. It's s**s everywhere. Junior had a, like, I don't know what a bomb would have gone off. And he's sitting in bed. And we get into an argument. And I'm like, you got to go. We got to go right now.

Because I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. And I'm not going to use your vernacular. But he's like, you're going. So he's like, I'm not doing it. And he starts talking on it. Then he brings up all the stuff that he's had to do. And I'm like, I get it.

And I said, your dad will win this award one time. there's only one person in the world in this earth that can accept that award on his behalf it's not me it's not anybody it's you and i said you will live to regret it if you don't get up out of this bed and go downstairs to accept this award and if you don't want to do it that's up to you and i just remember it clears day i said that's up to you because i put it on you and i turned around i walked out yeah and about 20 minutes later here comes bloodshot eyes a suit unshaving which it doesn't mean anything now because he's got a beer. But he's unshaving and he's like wrecked. And he comes up and I'm like, we're like tapping. You're like going to, yeah, he's here because they push the award till late. And he goes upstairs up there and he had one of the most eloquent speeches. I swear to God, it was awesome. It was awesome. He spoke for like three minutes about the award. He came off the stage.

He went upstairs and I swear in the elevator you could see the jacket coming off and it goes coming off. Because he got to his room and he was out. He was out to the banquet. That speech written by hog and heifer. Oh, my God. Well, yeah, I remember being, that was an argument. Yeah. So hold up, because I know there's so many things I want to ask you, Ty, and they're all over the place.

So we're out of order at this point. Let me, can I just go back and ask? Because we do need to tackle a couple other maybe MWR moments. All right, let's do it. But before we go that. I told you nothing was off limit. I think I know where you're going. No, no, no.

Before that, I want to go back to the 2001 Daytona 500 before the accident. Dale Jr., like you are in a, I don't think people really appreciate the situation you would have been in as Dale Jr. Spotter, but also as a lieutenant at DEI with Michael Waltrip having just arrived. And now you're on the last lap. Michael, who's never won, Dale Jr., who's in second who you're his spotter, do you recall before all the turmoil, all happened. What's going on in your head and how was Dale Jr. going to pass Michael for the for the win? Yeah. I know there's historically accurate that we had a lot of mees about how this is going to go down and Dale did talk a lot about us drafting together and getting to the end.

I never anticipated that he wouldn't make a move. I didn't think Dale. Even though Junior was right there and we were coming down a couple laps ago, I still thought Dale would make a move. And because I mean, you know, that's him, right? So I'm really watching that because just like Junior says, man, I saw in your interviews, I don't want to make a mistake. Dad's right there watching me. And I'm like, I can't, I don't want to make a mistake of the spotter and like, block and then the next thing you know, we're all crashing.

And he's like, what the hell? So like, I'm nervous just like he is about making the wrong move because of who was behind us. And but I was expecting a move. And when I saw this Hornet's Nest coming, I knew it was going to be down to just. the two of us. And as a spotter, you know, all you can do is feed the information, telling what's going on, who's got the runs, or whatever kind of stuff, or where, you know, high, low, whatever. And I'm going to say this, and I'm almost embarrassed to say it out loud. When they started getting loose and spinning, it took the pressure off immediately to have to make a decision about Dale.

And I was like, oh, we're going to win. We're going to finish first. and second. So for me as a spotter, I wanted to win, but I was, the story about Michael was big, right? So, like, I was like, oh, man, that sucks, but for that one split second, it's like, we didn't have to make a decision to block Dale. And then the race is over, and it, everybody sees it. I mean, you're like, well, he's going to be mad, but you walk away from that. And, but I was in, All I can remember saying and thinking was like Dale's going to be so happy. And I just couldn't wait for that moment, which of course never came. But I was nervous for Junior.

I was nervous for the company, but I was really nervous to not make the mistake that Junior always talks about. I don't make a mistake when Dale's got to run. He's got people shoving him. And what do you do? Right. Like the example of 2000 Talladega when, you know. Yeah.

Yeah, Skinner's up there leading. Skinner's leading junior second, and Dale's coming. We taught him he was coming, but he wouldn't move to block him. I'm like, here he comes, you get to the top, you know, move, and he was like, I'm good. I'm good. You all go. You go on. Thank you for answering that.

I've always wanted to know that about your approach to that. Now, MWR, obviously, the big conspiracy, what do you call that? When you think about the situation? at Richmond. Which one? Yeah, the Richmond and the team orders and stuff that ultimately led to your suspension. Yeah. I'm curious ultimately to know if you felt like the suspension was just and fair, but what I want to know is, like, you know, your perspective, your vantage point leading up to it.

So I'm actually glad you brought that up. I've avoided talking about it too much, but, you know, there were three or four things going on at the same time that were seemed connected. that were not connected. And if they were connected, it would have been a lot cleaner. And so I would say the same thing I said to Mike Hilton and those guys when I sat down on the means that they were like, tell me what happened at Richmond.

I'm like, which part? Because you're going to have to talk to each different group because if you listen to the radio and you watch what happened, it wasn't like we all had all this planned out. So I'll tell you exactly what I did. What I did was knowing the situation going, into the race, watching the points and seeing how everybody was moving, maneuvering around. And I saw things that were going on with one particular company that I thought was really weird.

And, I mean, I thought there was one driver in the Hendrick group that was acted like he was blown up all day and getting out of the gas that start to finish line. I'm like, that's weird. And then you start watching all the stuff and then you see who's up there on the spotter stand and tapping on this guy. and you see, you know, there's all the majors are all sitting up there and they're trying to like work out, maneuver everything,

and you see it. It's all year long. And so I'm sitting there and caution came out with however many laps to go and I'm spotting for Brian Vickers. Now I've got Channel 2, NASCAR, MRN, Channel 1, and a digital radio. I'm listening to,

I got all these voices in my head and I'm and so everybody's like oh you're on the 15 right I I couldn't get to it if I wanted to so I'm sitting there here's what happened caution comes out we're sitting there leaders come down pit road there's like six seven laps ago and I'm like we're a lap down and we take the wave around with Brian Vickers so right when they're coming to get ready to come around the corner we take the wave around with Brian and I see Lugano is in front of us and then as soon as I see him coming around I look up at the scoreboard

and it says Jeff Gordon in by one point Legano out by one point and I'm like well I need Lugano had two wins and if he has his two wins drops to 11th he makes the playoffs and the Truex gets knocked out

so I'm like it's a one point difference and I'm like well how is the 22 in front of us but behind us on the rundown and it all happened while we were waving around and I looked at the score board and I saw it was going on. I'm like, oh, he was two laps down coming to one down. Lugano was, and we were two to one. I'm like, we need to get that lap back. And so I'm like, because I don't know who he's racing. I don't have time to go, oh, I wonder

who he's racing this lap. I didn't have time. So we were coming around going in to turn one to catch the back of the field. I'm like, Brian, I need you to pit. He's like, what? Yeah. I'm like, I need you to pit. I need you to pit. I need you to pit right now. And he was like, I don't understand. Well, by this time, the leaders now are going in turn three. You know how the green drops in the middle of three and four. And I'm like, green flag, green flag, but I need you to pit. And he's like, I don't understand. I have a tire going on.

What's going on? And I was just like, I need you to pit right now for a point. And when I said that, it was like the SWAT team was pointed. All the red lasers were all my throat, my heart, my brain, and it was brain matter everywhere. And so he was like, oh, okay. So then he comes down. and it's just a mess. And so after the race, I'm like,

and so I was like, holy shit, we pulled it off. And then I got approached by another owner who came over and said, hey, that just worked, didn't it? It worked really well, didn't? And I looked at him and I'm like, what are you talking about? And I later found out what they were doing. And I'm like, all this shit was going on up there, all maneuvering around that same freaking point.

And I knew that I had said it on a radio. and I knew that was bad news. So I hated that not everybody got in trouble. Yeah, I just yell. But I got slaughtered. I got flayed. I got, I watch television. I'm like, I'm the only guy in the world who's ever done.

I'm like, I was pissed. And but Michael and Rob came to me and they were like, shut up. Just shut up. You just let it go. And it was hard for me because it was, it was, there was a, there was a, lot and it was personal attacks and it was I mean it was professional attacks and personal attacks and i've watched ryan mcgee going marty smith sitting there like ty norse never working this garage again he'll never be around this garage again and i'm like you have no freaking idea what all was going on

and and i thought when some of the other tapes came out i'm like ah see everybody's going to get in trouble i was the only one so i'm going to tell you this i plotted as mad as i was and still mad as i about it for a company, NASCAR had to do something. It was out of control. And I'm people, I watch people during the season pay for, with tires for a guy to come off the racetrack

because their guy had trouble. Pit, pit, pit, pit. Now, I'm going to give you tires. And like, there was so much conversation going on about what they could do for each other. It had to end. And, and I, and I, as mad as I was that, I was the poster boy for it, you know, it had an end.

I was more mad that they gave Jeff the spot. Like they literally made a spot. Made a spot for a guy in the playoffs. I was like, what in the hell are we doing? This is like not the way to clean this up. It's like making this whole problem worse. Yeah, it definitely, like they didn't know what to do, right? And so what I was, I knew they were going to come down hard.

on me. And I knew that others weren't become, because they'd come down as hard on them because they need drivers, right? They need teams. They don't really necessarily need guys like me. And so I have never felt the cold shoulder of the entire industry like I did. And I wanted, I never wanted to walk in that garage again. I never wanted to be around again. I got really bitter. And I'm like, I'll just, I'll go work another sport. I'll go, I'll go dig a ditch. I'll go, I'll be a sports writer. I don't give a shit. I do, but I'm never doing, because I wanted to come out and just, back to my point, they were mean to me, I'm going to be meaner to you.

You bet you got, you got me, I'll wait to what I come out with. And I finally got myself zoned out, and I just said, have you? Because, treat this with respect. Yeah. Treat it with respect. I made a mistake, stand up. I set it out loud, take it and take it in the jaw and keep on moving. and there are a lot of people at NASCAR,

including Mr. Jim France, who pulled me off to the side at the banquet. And he said, son, you're going to be okay, just move on past it. And if I didn't have conversations like that, I probably would, you know, I don't know that I'd been back. What did you do after that?

So, I mean, I stayed at, I stayed at MWR. You know, I stayed there. And then I just, you know, I did all we could do to put our teams. Hell, we ended up extending contracts with five hours. We extended contracts with errands. We ended up, you know, resigning drivers. I mean, we were, we were settling ourselves back in.

The Snow Globe was finally settled again, and we lost Truex, and we lost Napa. And I always told, I always tell Chase Elliott and Bill Elliott, and I see him like, you know, I had a little something to do with you guys getting Napa. You know that, right? But now it's just like I feel, and we started getting our footing under us again. And then, you know, Brian, you know, unfortunately got blood clots. and he started getting blood clots and Boyer was a lot left on Boyer and Boyer was having a tough time

being the lead dog on the sled he was a phenomenal teammate, phenomenal guy but he was the only guy left you know and it just put him in a bad spot and everything just kind of sort of falling apart from there so what happened where did you that deal just ends up imploding on itself yeah I mean Rob Kaufman

Rob Kaufman ended up leaving taking his investment and taking it over to Gannasi and they ended up he ended up being over there because he loves sports cars and IndyCar and things of that nature so it actually ended up been a better place for him to invest anyway and and so I got recruited to go over to become the president of Spire Motorsports and I was over at Spire immediately yeah yeah I left I left MWR I took December off and started January 1st with with Spires the president of spire and I was there all the way through 19, started my own business, and that's when Justin called me.

What business did you start? So I started a business because I just, I was down on NASCAR, really. I thought, you know, it was hard to find sponsorships and, you know, just the way the industry was going. It was hard to justify the ask anymore, and I was starting to get exposed a lot more to some other sports and the music. And so we had just done a big music program with Dirk's Bentley and started getting involved with the Red Light Management Group over there. And so I started my own business and the first client I got was Red Light Management and Dirk's team. And so I went to, and I started doing that. And then I was doing, I was consulting work for Aquarius and Mark Bluestine, the guys out of Baltimore, Maryland.

And so I was, I was fine. And then I had a lot of great business to do. And I was like, music is the spot. music is like racing was in the 80s. I mean, great, great extensions of everything, great marketers or marketing,

uh, platforms, but not great, sponsorship, uh, built out, you know, like,

like how we do it. So I took, I was going down that path and then that's when Justin called. Um, actually T. T.J. Puscher from Spire called me and he says, Justin,

Marks is looking for you and let's have a conversation. And I ended up having that conversation in summer of 19 and I've been with Justin ever since. What about your business? business. I shut it down because I couldn't do music and this at the same time. You sell it or? Shut it down. No, I mean, I just, I mean, it was, it was, it was, you're looking at the business, right? You know, the business is up here and putting all these programs, the programs together.

And we basically, I, I, I bowed out of the Aquarius thing in the summer right when Justin came about because there was just, I couldn't spend time up in Baltimore. And then I, um, and then, uh, when, and then the, the, the, the, the January of, 20 is when I told the red light guys, I can't be chasing Jake on the lake tour sponsorships. And Luke Bryan Farm tour sponsorships and Lady A's tour. I can't do that when I'm trying to build this business over here. But when Justin said, let's move to Nashville, I'm like, I love it.

Because now a lot of those relationships that I had built that time of there, it was like, man, it just makes it pretty natural to be here. Interesting. Yeah. That's all good. If you want to start up a race team, call ties. That's his legacy. Well, I mean, I think it's interesting because you've seen you've seen them succeed

and you've seen why they fail. Like you have this sort of, oh, we better not do that. I've been there before. Let's not try. That's a bad step. Yeah. You know, so it's pretty interesting. What do you think would say?

your ownership of it and I'm not saying just because you're here but that's been the only thing that would have saved it you think I was in position to manage that no but I think you brought people in 11 leader jobs that's all it needed that's all it needed and you know I still think you would have been able to bring the right people in and honestly if if I wasn't the right guy you would have made that decision right but I think that I think that it needed another Earnhardt presence. And with Teresa still being there,

if y'all could have worked it out, I think DEI would have still existed. It's not unlike, and you may remember this way or you don't. But you and Teresa were already having some issues, and I came to you because we had an opportunity with Bass Pro. And I'm like, you guys should start a Bush team. Yeah, chance too.

Yeah. And so we started talking about it, And Fred Wagonaws was on board. And Fred said, I'll sponsor your first race. And we had some royalty money that was going to cede it. And we were like, all right. So we started a chance two racing. And that created this partnership with you and Teresa to figure out how you're going to own teams together.

Right. And I thought that was one of the better things that we ever did because what I was hoping for you, and this is very much a personal thing. I was hoping you would start to see a little bit more about what it takes to run with these things. and see why some of the stuff happened, right? Because I'm like, you're just really going to open your eyes to that side. And so I thought Chance 2 was a great opportunity to lead into what ultimately should be done, which was, you know, you taken over.

But, you know, I think Chance 2 did really great things. We ended up, I'm saying, it's probably seated, you know, JR Motorsports, and look what you guys have done. I mean, you've got to be super proud of what you're doing here. But, yeah, I could have been that way. Yeah, I don't think we ever had any problems together with Chance 2, me and Teresa. Most of our stuff was driver-owner. How much did y'all interact, though?

Not, none. You know, I mean, we, Chance 2, we had this little shop that it ran out of. And, I mean, it grew into something a little bit bigger than that when they went full-time racing with Truex. But it was a race team that we, I. I mean, it was a race team that ran itself by the people that ran it, not me. I wasn't hands on with it. Very much like what we have here. Like, Kelly's the smarter one of the two of us.

I let her run that part. You know, we got Pemberton and LW and all the other people, you know, down the ladder that know what they're doing and can be here every single day. And that's the way that team ran. And Trees and I never had to disagree. or agree on anything. Everything seemed to come pretty easy with that relationship and chance, too. Yeah, it did.

It's the way I remember it. Yeah, it did. And I remember exactly the same. And, you know, it was very well funded. You know, we were able to get funding right out of the bat. And unfortunately, that was one of the situations when I left in 04. I didn't get to see it through. You know, it got True X on full time to get to see it through.

But, but now I was real proud of it. I was like we helped start it. But, you know, people in our roles now are people in my role with Justin, marks is you respect your employees because you know that if you hired people to do their jobs, let them do their jobs,

and provide them all the resources you can to make them successful. And that's the only thing you can do. You don't have to, like, I was so busy micromanaging at DEI. I ended up, I was signing checks. I was doing the flight itineraries. I was handling the sponsorships.

I handled, I did, every employee at DEI had their employment review done through my office. 300 people. And like, I don't know what the guy, you know, the cylinder head guy is doing. I don't, I can't be that guy. And I, but I had all that, I took all that control. I wanted all that. I wanted all that just to make sure everybody could hear it, right?

And it's like, it's just as you grow, you're like, you definitely have to delegate and you have to trust those people. and help resource them. Your answer to Dale's question is interesting because if it would have required Dale Jr. to take over the company, which would have required Dale Jr. and Teresa to have worked together, I can't help but wonder, could that have been possible? And I don't like talking hypotheticals, but could that have been possible had Teresa and Dale Jr.

not had to have the friction over working out driver contracts and rights to ownership of your name and your likeness and that kind of thing? if you would have removed the driver element of it, do you think that there could have been a pathway of ownership at DEI? If the respect were there both ways. But it wasn't. I think it went much deeper than driver and owner. And I think that if,

but I saw a junior growing up, I'm not sure she ever saw him growing up. And, and, you know, look, I mean, comparing where you were in your life, life at that time where Dale was running the company. He can't do that. Well, we should have given it a chance. That, to me, seemed more like a, you know, a personal issue that was coming out in these professional ways. And if it wasn't, if it wasn't for that, then maybe. But I think they had some other things they had to work through. And you had to, and I tried to tell Teresa one time, I said,

please stop looking at junior like the guy who spilled, you know, grape juice on your white carpet, you know, as a kid, like, please stop doing that. Like, he's a professional race car driver. In fact, he's probably the most sought after race car drivers in the business. And we have to treat him that way. We have to treat his contract that way. We can't treat him like, you know, like he's the kid. Yeah, treat him like the man. I think that I was raising in a lot of hell, partying a lot. And I probably am, like, you know, I was probably as hard to find sometimes as she was. and as long as we were racing good, I thought I could do anything I wanted the rest of the time was mine

to do anything I wanted to do with it. In 2004, 2005, I was absolutely not in position to run the team or take over such a heavy responsibility. But I believe by the time I was ready to leave, if she would have called my bluff on the 51% ownership, that I put out there in the Media Day at Daytona, I could have quickly grown into that person because I feel like when I went to Hendrick,

there was a transition for me in maturity and so forth. And I would have grown into that person to be able to keep DEI going. And we would have figured it out. You know, with Kelly's help and everybody else involved, we would have tried to figure it out. It would, you know, we've done it here, and I think we would have, we would have stumbled, and it would have had, it would have been some rough times.

It would have been. But the foundation was late, you know. The foundation was there, yeah. Yeah, but, I mean, I got a call from Tim Schuller from Budweiser one day and Steve Euline, and they're like, hey, what's going over at Junior's house? And I said, what do you mean? Well, the local bottler, or, you know, distributor just said, the most beer I'd, deliver to any retailer in the entire state of North Carolina is in Morseville at Dale Jr.'s

House. And I was like, they said, is he selling it? And they're like, no, they're drinking it. He goes, how the hell is he drinking so much beer? Like, we're delivering case after case after case. And like, there's not a store in the area, the region that's consuming as much beer. I had a lot of help drinking. Yeah, I know.

And I was like, well, I guess he's having a good time, you know, let him go, let him go. but I love those guys. I missed, actually, I saw Steve Euline in January. I went to ski to this place out in the steamboat. Do you remember the, did you come to the New Year's party that I had in the backyard in that big shop I built, the brick shop? Remember that shop I built behind the house across the street? Yes.

We had the New Year's party there? No, I didn't, but I didn't have a story about that. Keep going. I didn't go. I was just wondering if that was, we must have drank. Yeah. 100, 150K. I would tell you a story about that particular party.

you were proud of that party. Yeah. You were putting out, sending out invites and everything. And so he came to my office and he goes, and I'm not going to name the guy. And he comes and he goes, I don't want that guy to be on my team anymore. I want you to move him or fire him or whatever.

I want you to be on my team anymore. And I'm like, he's one of our best fabricators. Why? And he goes, well, I've got this party going on. I'm sending out invitations. he goes, and I don't want to invite him. And if I don't want to drink beer with him, I don't want to work on my damn race car. Oh, my gosh.

And I was like, Junior, I appreciate where you're coming from, but I, man, I can't fire the guy over that. He'll move him off my teammates, I won't be around people, I want to be around. And then he starts yelling at me. He's like, why are you coming? And I was like, well, because I have a family. And there's one week out of the year, it's between Christmas and New Year's that I take off and go with them. And every 51 other weeks, I'm doing this.

And he goes, all right. And I was like, don't fire me because I didn't want to go to your party. Oh, my God. You didn't fire him, but the guy probably didn't last, did he? No, he lasted to the end. Oh, you remember who it is. No, I don't. Yeah, you do.

I don't. He lasted to the end. He lasted to the end. He lasted to the end. He was strange. I would give him that. There was some strange, but he was just going to pull him out of my ass. He was a strange guy.

He was strange. He was strange. He was strange. I know. I got in trouble with your dad going over your house after you had a big, Benger. So Phil Murdoch had called me about doing... Remington guy.

Yeah, and he was doing an endorsement deal with... Which one was it? One of the ATV companies. He said, your dad had Articat, right? Yep. And this is Polaris. So he's like, Polaris, we're going to do an endorsement with Junior. Give him this much money.

We're going to give this many four pieces of equipment. So ATVs, like, you know, wave runners, whatever, whatever you want. So I was like, he goes, I need an answer, though. I'm like, I'm like, to go over there. So I drive over to your house, and I knock on the door,

and people start, like, coming out of, like, blankets on the floor and off the couch. There's two guys sleeping, like, long ways like that on the couch. It was,

I was like, what in the hell? And so, Junior's in there in the bedroom, sleep, and I'm like, hey, man, sorry,

but I really have to, I got to get an answer to this guy. So I'm like, this is what they'll do. This is how much money is how many, how many ATVs? And he's like, hell, y'all do that.

and so about the time I see Dale's truck pull up Dale comes in the house and he goes what's going on in here? He goes, why are you here? And I said, well, I'm talking to him about this player steal. He goes, what player is still? And I was like, well, I was just explaining it to him. And he's like, go to my office. Okay.

So I get my car, go across the office, go upstairs, and I wait for him. I go to his office, wait for him. He comes back over there. He's mad as hell. So Jeff Blowser, I think it's Jeff Blowser's buddy. Well, one of the guys. Yeah.

Pitcher for the race. Somebody had given him a bat, an Atlanta Braves bat. And so Dale walks in and grabs this bat, and he's walking, pacing back forward and hitting his boots. And he's hitting his boots, and he's like, I got a damn art of cat deal. You don't ever, ever go to Dale Jr. with something that's in conflict with me. And he's like, you don't talk to him about anything until you talk to me first. And, like, I mean, he was mad, slamming that bat. And he goes, don't you ever, ever do that again?

I remember that. And he puts a bat down. He says, now you want to go to lunch? And I was like, yeah. And I was like, man, I'm sorry. I'll never do it again. And I don't think you ever did the player still. Damn.

He didn't never do it. And then he was mad because he's like, I'm going to say I'm seven-time champion. How's he getting more pieces than me? He'd come over there. I remember one time, I thought he was going to be mad about the after-party. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the people. After math.

The people of the way they were sleeping. Wow. He, um, guy, he, um, came over there one time after I wrecked the car at Charlotte. I was going to tell you that story. Driving the Wrangler car. Yeah. So I'm driving the Wrangler car in 1997 in Charlotte. And we're fast.

We're like eighth on the board. We're going to tape it off and qualify, or go make a mock run and practice. We didn't know that. we should probably put tires on too. So we had these 30-lap tires on and taped it off, like the recipe for disaster. And sure enough, through three and four, I'm coming through the corner,

and it'd come around, and I bounced in the fence. And we loaded up, and I think my career's over. Yeah. And I go, I had punch, I had a friend with me named Punchy and another guy. And we rode over to my house

and grabbed a, bottle of vodka and put it on this coffee table in front of me. And I got my cigarettes. I'm smoking. I got a big old pile. I asked tray full of cigarettes. Punchy and the other guy. It wasn't terrible, was it?

I don't think it was. Or sitting on the couch across from me as a love seat. And we got our shoes kicked off. We're sitting there and I'm just, no, we're not talking, not jovial at all. And I'm like, man, I don't know what I'm going to do. This sucks. I can't believe it. I'm not going to run the race and I'm erect a car.

car on the car got i didn't know it but they had brought the car over to the shop and we're working on it yep the guys that were helping me now they're i'm 50 yards away from them or just across the street they're at the shop cutting the car apart to get it fixed and you don't know that no no oh i know where this is going yeah and so the door swings open as this double-eyed trailer i lived in and the door swings open pangm clams against the washer and dryer yeah clump combe boom boom boom boom dad comes walking in. He looks there at my buddies and goes, get your f***in shoes on and get off my property. And they grabbed their shoes and took off out the front door and

drive down the road. And dad looks down at me and goes, what the hell are you doing? They're over there working on your car right now, fixing it, cutting the frame. I'm like, I didn't know they were there. I didn't know they were doing that. Yeah. They're fixing it. Yes, they're cutting it apart. I'm like, we're going to, they're going to, you're going to fix it? He's like, yes, we're going to fix it. I'm like, not for the race that weekend, but like, I just thought I was done. So we went outside.

We went outside on the front porch. Yeah. We're on the connect because I was with him. You were with Dale. I went over there with Dale. Yeah. And so. What was he saying when he's driving up the driveway?

He was just mad. Right. At first, I think at first he was just going to check on you. Oh. And then he was mad as hell because you were drinking, hanging out with your buddies and the guys over there, you know. Working. working so it pissed him off and then he went spike pissed you know like he so he we come through

we sit out in the front porch and then and i and this is something i i don't know if i should share but i'm going to share it anyway he goes he starts yelling at him about get together about getting his life together figure out what you're going to do i'm trying to do all this stuff for you and junior is the first time i saw him do this and he looked at him he said dad he didn't call him dad he looked at him he said, and I'm going to use your vernacular. He goes, I ain't been a pimple on your ass for the last 10 years. And all of a sudden, you can come over here and start telling me all the stuff. And all of a sudden, like it meant something.

And Dale's face changed. Now, I don't know if you remember saying that or not, but his face changed. And I was like, that was one of those. I've had moments like that with my own son. And I finally told him one time. He was yelling. I was yelling at him one time. I was his room.

And he looked at me, and I stopped. I said, you're right. And he goes, what? He didn't know what to do. He didn't know what to do because I was always yelling at him. He was like, I didn't know what to do. And I saw Dale's face change. And I was like, this is a father-son moment.

And I walked away. And I went out and sit out in the truck and let them talk for a little bit longer and finish up. Damn. Because you stood up to him. Yeah. It was the greatest conversation we ever had. Yeah. And it was the first conversation, like first real talk we had.

And he went from. you're fucking up. You're making all, you know, you gotta get your ass in gear to, like, explaining to me, not like, you know, not like. He told you was building it for you. Yeah, he was like,

hey, he was the first time he told you that. Yeah, it's the first time he really let me understand, like, like, this is for you, man. This is happening all this is, this is for you. This is, and, um, and we, you know, he, we had a breakthrough. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean?

Yeah. But I'm glad I said that. Yeah. That's exactly what you said. I haven't been a pimple on your ass and all of a sudden now and I'm like, oh, shit. I'm sweating. Just thinking about it. I'm like, I'm going to come over here.

I'm hanging out by the truck. Yeah. Wow. I've had, you know, I look back in my life and I've seen some remarkable things and you learn from those. And those moments like there, I'm glad you remember. a lot of them because I when because I honestly I'm going to say this again out loud there are so many people who walk around talking about Dale Earnhardt stories like they did this and they did that and they did this and like half times you're like that's not even the right year like that you guys aren't

weren't even the same he didn't he would never do that and so it's neat to be able to sit down like this and talk about those moments because they were impactful for you and impactful for him impactful for me as well as as part of my whole growth and so yeah it's I'm glad we could talk about yeah that I love being able to talk about dad and share the the true you know the true uh stories about him he was we we both loved him yeah you know and we both think the world of him but damn he was a human you know and he failed and he made mistakes and and he wasn't perfect and I I like when we talk about, you know, that part of him where you get to see him fail and be real, you know, and be human. I was riding down the road on the way to Darlington this weekend with my Nova to drive it and had my uncle Robert G. Jr. with me.

And he spent a ton of time with my dad in the 70s going to the dirt tracks. And then when he tells a story about Dale Earnhardt, he holds dad. dad on this pedestal. We went here and Dale did this and we did, Dale, Dale did this and Dale did this. And every story that you're going to, pretty much most of the stories you're going to heal from Robert G. Jr.,

dad's going to be wearing a crown, right? Right, right. And Robert G. Jr. has a brother Jimmy that was there during all those same times. But if you have Jimmy separate to tell the same story, he tells a more realistic version of the story. Like he'll say, yeah, dad, dad, you know, would go,

dad would go to a junkyard to get a $3 part and go and pay the guy three bucks to go back there and get his part, and then he'd eyeball all the other cars and around there and all the other things he needed and break in that junkyard in the middle of the night and steal all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. You know, and Robert G. Jr. would never tell that story, right? Right, right?

Yeah. And so I like, you know, we've been talking about how insane, amazing he is all these years, and it's sometimes it's fun to talk about how, really was. Yeah. And he was an imperfect father. And, and, you know, but he got things right too, right. He got it wrong and then he turned it around and got it right and been able to, you know, that was 97 when that conversation happened. Yeah. I remember. Yeah. And you know how 98, 99 and 2000 went with me and him. Yeah. I mean, we were getting closer and closer and closer. And the conversations we were having were less, you need to do it this way more and more like we're

going to do this together. We're building something. do this together you did it you know yeah i i i i so there's a couple things i um remember we just have a basketball goal that's out there and then somebody tore their leg up or tore it akeleys or something yeah dale's like no basketball and i told dale i'm like basketball is my life man like i i play basketball every day i go to the hood and play because i love it and he was like nope can't play so i came back from a race on the xfinity like it's bush Bush race, whatever, and I wasn't going to be there for the cup race. And I tore my ACL playing basketball at the YMCA.

So he gets home from the race that night, and he calls me. He's like, what time are you going to come to shop tomorrow? I was like, I'll be there early, but I say, let you know. I tore my knee up pretty bad. He was doing what? I said, playing basketball. And he goes, I see tomorrow, and he slams the phone down. He's so pissed.

So the next day, I go over there, and we're building DEI. It's like, you know, it's like, you know, Nathan's building out there after looking at playing stuff. So he's coming out of this shelf of building, and I'm over in the deerhead shop. And I walk over and I'm limping and stuff. And he could see which leg I was limping on. And he had to go to an appearance. So he's got like his, you know, chase shirt on, his blue chase shirt and his jeans and his boots.

And he gets there close and puts his hand out for me. And right when I go to shake his hand, he picks up his leg and he kicked me right in the knee as hard as he could, right in my knee. And, like, I mean, took me down. And he goes, I told you to never play basketball. Now I'm not going to have my employees where they can't be around. And I'm like, I mean, I'm like, teared up. it freaking hurt. So this was like on a Monday.

So later in the week, the girl, Becky used to come around, like work on his back and stuff because his neck was all messed up. She's like, she checked, she goes, you tore your ACL. And I'm like, I know, but I can't,

I can't take a minute off to go to the doctor. And I'm at Rocky him, flipping around. And she goes and tells Dale, Dale, still's Jimbo over, and I go over and see him. And he's like, to go home right now,

go see Dr. Serene. He's going to fix you up already talked to him. Like, he felt bad. So you're talking about him in a perfect person. He just, he couldn't control it. Like, he just, and I'm like, dude, like, you have a torn ACL. And instead of being like being like on a, on the pedestal, he took me out.

Yeah. And I was like, dude, that's not cool. That was really not cool. And, but he had, you know, he does, he was, he was influential in everybody's lives. But he, um, there are a lot of days where I just was like, get this. this man out of this office, get this man on the back of that farm. Get him on a bulldozer. Get him on a bulldozer. Get him in a happy place because he is a miserable son. Yeah, he would come through there so hot. I couldn't stand it. And then Uncle

Randy would come in. He was, what's going on? I'm like, you don't even want to know. Like, I just, I just is, yeah, you're right. Everybody, I love the fact that people speak so highly, but at the same time, the flaws are what make it, right? And we've, we've all done it. We've all lived it and better for it. What was the best thing? The best thing about the DEI, in my opinion, was the kitchen. You remember the name of the cook, Chef David? Yeah, maybe, maybe, because we had two. Yeah. The younger fella used to cook this stir fry with chicken. Yeah. It was like kind of like an Asian sort of flavor to it. Yeah. Freaking amazing guy. So you could, I could walk up, this was like the best perk in the world, man. I live right of

across the street. I could get in, you know, got up out of bed at noon. I could go over and like, Chef David, man, makes me up some of that chicken. Yeah. So we had this trophy room and Dale's like, I'm going to make this restaurant because I want people to have the drive into town. So he, yeah, he's like, we're going to feed him. It's insane. Yeah, I was like, all right, well, that's cool. And it was a insane idea. And it was five dollars. Yes, five bucks. And he's like, five bucks. And they had like unbelievable spread out there. Like, you couldn't get for 15, 20 bucks. Yeah, the meal had to cost, Yeah, the meal had to cost $15, $20 to make. No way they were making it, right?

Employees had a card. Right. You can swipe your card and it charged you five bucks off of your, I mean, I know this makes sense to you now, but imagine this in 1990, 2000. It was ahead of time. Way ahead of this time. Everybody loved it. And so, and then Dale said he was going to buy that field across the street, and he says,

I'm going to build houses in here, and I'm going to build these houses because I'm and only employees can buy these houses, and they'll buy them from me. And I'm like, okay, wait a minute. So they work here. You want to live there and they're going to eat here. We call it Daleville. You know, like, no one's going anywhere. And so that was awesome.

One of my favorite meals I ever had up there was A.J. Foyt came over. Damn. And he was looking at buying all of our bush stuff because we were getting going cup racing in 2001. So A.J. Forte came over and sat down, and AJ and your dad, and I sat there at lunch for two hours, maybe more, talking about life and racing and cars and inventory and how much we're going to sell stuff for. And I was like, how this little kid who is like the pit reporter at 19 couldn't go to the

college I wanted to go to sitting here are these two legends, man. It was awesome. That was my favorite trophy room moment. Yeah. I can't imagine ever being one better than that. AJ Hoyt and Dale Earnhardt. Yeah. They were a couple of hardheads.

They were fun, fun to listen to them. They were too busy stroking each other about how, oh, you're great. No, you're great. No, you're great. Come on, man. Fight about something. Everybody's great. Well, man, we're going to have to cut it off.

It's been a fun conversation. Yeah, damn. Just so much to, so many things that I had forgotten that you remember. I've always kind of admired that about people that can remember all the details about a conversation or meeting and the feeling and temperature in the room and all that. Yeah. And you brought back a lot of cool memories. Yeah.

And it was good. It was a, I hoped it would be like this. Yeah. It's been therapy for me too. Yeah. I need to get stuff off. It's not therapy as just much as I hate, quite often I hate people who only can live in the past and can't live in the future.

Yeah. They only live there. And it's a great place to visit. it's a great place to think about. But man, I love what you're doing right now. I couldn't be happier with what I'm doing professionally and personally right now. And so I'm finally somebody I can look in the mirror and be proud of, and it takes a while to get there.

And so it's all good, man. You always been a great friend to me. You've always had all the ups and downs that I've been through, that you've been through personally. Anytime I've ever had a text from you or a conversation with you, you've supported me. You're an amazing person. I appreciate it.

Yeah, you've been really, you were an amazing, great friend and my dad, very loyal and, and, you know, protective of his vision. And things were, things were going to be amazing there, had everything worked out like we'd hoped.

Yep. But it sent us somewhere else in a bunch of different directions. And now who you are back, kind of back where you started with an opportunity to build something pretty amazing. So like I said, it's been fun to watch

you guys this year. I love y'all's crew chief. Travis has been a part of my life for several years now, and I've always believed in him, so it's great to see him get that opportunity. Yeah. But I'm wishing y'all the best. So I'm secretly pulling for you guys every Sunday to have success. I appreciate it. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's another opportunity to take someone's vision and be a good lieutenant. And you're right. It's the life to circle, and here we are. That's right, man. Happy better. Ty Norris on the Dale Jr. Download. Check out Dirtymoe Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.