The Dale Jr. Download - Johnny Benson on his time at Roush, Mentoring Carson Hocevar, & Concussions

Episode Date: April 8, 2026

It’s not often that racers go on to have competitive second acts to their careers after retiring from the limelight. This week on the Download, Dale Earnhardt Jr. sits down with a driver who retired a NASCAR Truck champion and retraced his family roots back to the short tracks: Johnny Benson Jr. Born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Johnny grew up in the shadows of his father John Benson Sr., one of the finest chauffeurs the Midwest had to offer in the 1960s and 70s. John made a name for himself in the supermodified ranks and served as part of the Michigan invasion of the mid-60s to the legendary Oswego Speedway, where he captured the crown jewel Oswego Classic in 1966. At home, he was an accomplished parts builder and fabricator, which is where young Johnny got his first hands-on experience. Once John stepped away from driving, Johnny rose to the occasion to race for the family company, initially stepping into Southwest Michigan’s dirt late model ranks. He quickly graduated to pavement competition, taking on the challenging American Speed Association tour in the mid-1990s, where he captured his first national championship in 1993. The feat landed him on the radar of many in the NASCAR ranks, including none other than Dale Earnhardt Sr. and Ernie Irvan. Johnny received a shot at the big time in the Busch Grand National Series, where he’d continue his winning ways with a season points crown in 1995. He was promoted to the Cup Series, driving for Bahari Racing, Roush Racing and finally MB2 Motorsports, capturing one lone victory at Rockingham in 2002.  Johnny’s Cup opportunities would run their course, but he’d find later success in his NASCAR career driving for Bill Davis Racing in the Trucks Series. He’d become one of the few drivers in NASCAR history to win crowns in multiple series when he won the Truck title in 2008, before returning to his short track roots, getting behind the wheel of a supermodified in International Super Modified Association competition. Arby’s Meat & 3 box is available for a limited time at participating locations while supplies last. Prices may vary. Get your Meat & 3 box at an Arby's near you today. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The following is a production of Dirtymoe Media. You're Dale Jr. Should I say it? It's Dale Jr. podcast. I got to say it. Hey, everybody. It's Dale Jr. back again for another episode of the Dale Jr. download. Our guest segment today presented to you by Arby's and their new meat in three box.

Get more meal for your money at Arbys. We have the meats. We also have a great guest for you today. Johnny Benson's coming on the show. Johnny is raced in the NASCAR at the truck level, the rally or the Bush level. At the cup level, he's raised short. tracks his entire life. I learned a lot in preparing for this and reading through our notes.

Bobby Marcos and the team put together a great sort of scope of his life and career. One thing that's interesting for me is that his dad was a very successful racer. I want to talk about that because I learned a lot about his dad reading books. And then Johnny, his career path was kind of kind of, you know, kind of. accelerated, clunky, start, stop, how he got into the O'Reilly or the Bush series and was really successful and he yanked out of there in the Cup Series and that struggled for a while

and he never really landed into a great situation until his opportunity at Bill Devis racing in the truck series. So we want to talk about all that, but also a short track racer through and through. Started at the short tracks. Still races at the short tracks. He's recently announced that he is completely retouched. hired. I don't believe it. We're going to talk about that and more. Let's bring Johnny in the room.

All right, Johnny Benson Jr. on the Dale Jr. Download, man, it's awesome to have you here. Yeah, no, it's great to be here. Yeah. Great to be here. I have to show all the time. Yeah, awesome. Man, you, looking at your story, I mean, I live, I was, you know, a witness to a lot of it. But looking back at your past with more detail, it's really remarkable all the different avenues that you got to go down and got to experience. First off, though, I wanted to talk briefly about your dad. I knew that your father raced, but I never knew much about his career and somebody handed me a book of the classic. at Oswego.

And it's, I'm sure you've seen this book, but it's got a nice, it's a history of the classic, which is a super modified race, the biggest maybe super modified race in the country at Oswego. And it does a really good job of sort of going race by race, giving you kind of a couple paragraphs on how the race played out

and who finished where and you learn about all these incredible names. that raced in that race and raced in supermodifieds, and your dad was one of them. So, you know, what do you recall, I guess, growing up around race cars? What's your first memory of being in the shop or seeing a car? What car was it? Well, when I first started in a shop, I was probably seven years old, but I remember being four or five when my dad did have super modified and it was down there. And, of course, every kid wants to sit in it.

So obviously I did that. But that so when he won the classic, which was a 66, I was only three years old. And so obviously I wasn't there. But I did get a chance to see him run him. But I was so young, there's a lot of it I don't remember. And then as he got into the late model aspect of things, that's when I worked in a shop. I mean, I started at seven years old and shop. And just worked on his cars all that time. you know he won multiple races multiple championships at berlin i mean he there's nobody better around berlin than him but um then he did start to run a supermodified again back when sammy sessions uh race for dalker uh motorsports there and he got he got killed i think snowmuel racing or something they asked my dad to drive it that was probably the time that i remember him running a super modified and going to the races and i and i was probably 12 12, 13 at that point in time.

And that was probably my first introduction to the super's was at age. I could remember a pretty cool race car. They are. They're crazy. You know, just looking, learning through that book about the classic itself, the evolution of those cars is fascinating. I think, you know, when he went there, he always talked about that they, they were starting to bring in the roadsters from the indie cars.

And then he built what we would call a wedge car back in that day. and I just remember hearing the story. So he went out qualified and he was fast. Well, I don't remember what the bracket was, whether it was 20 seconds or 19, whatever that bracket was. He's the first one into that bracket. And they said,

nobody can go that fast. He made him qualify, re-qualify three times. So he kept working on a car, kept going faster. And I thought that was kind of funny. And then he won the race. And I can't tell you how many times that when we used to race,

Watkins Glen people always asked me, if that your dad, and I says, yep it is. It doesn't matter where you go up and that end of the country. I get asked every time and still do today. Yeah. When did you decide that you, you know, wanted to become a driver?

That actually happened kind of weird because they're, you know, I was working in a shop and, you know, just welding parts, things that nature. And I started building chassis. I think I built my first chassis from the ground up when I was 13. well I was about it must have been 18

my dad quit racing and you know he had a couple of wrecks and he was like I'm just I'm done with this and at that point in time I like who's gonna race for the company and so that's when I actually decided but I build a dirt car we were selling both dirt and asphalt cars

so I ran I went and ran dirt for three years and that's but I started just because he had quit and I'm in my head is like well who's gonna race for the business so that's when I said All right, I'll build a car and go. Yeah. So what kind of dirt car was it?

Like what they would call the World LLL8 models. Really? Back in that. Wage car. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where did you race?

Started it off like at Ionia Speedway. Then it was Thunderbird Speedway and over in Muskegon and then I, I own your speedway or I 96. I'm sorry. And I ran there and then I, we toured around a little bit, not, not too far. I don't think my dad really cared for the travel much, but there's a lot of times I would just go and do it. But pretty much stayed there. I did go down to run the World 100 once, I think, on my second year racing.

I fell one car short of making a race. And it was my own stupidity. I was good in the heat race. But in Michigan, it's like, when they throw the green on a restart, we usually do it in three and four. Down there, they start in turn two while I was sleeping. And I went from like, I think I'd finished in top five. I was running fourth.

Well, then I'm like eighth. I made it back up to like fifth. And I was one car short. Yeah. I just didn't know they were going to start in the middle of backs right. Or coming off too. So I got, I got caught sleeping. So, you know, you're, you're, one of the things that I love about you is that you,

you're proficient in building cars. You're like, you know cars probably as good as you can drive them. Yeah. You talked about building a chassis at 13 years old. You know, how, I guess, how valuable was all of that knowledge for you as a driver early on, right? You're trying to, I can't imagine, right? When I started driving race cars, I didn't know anything about setting them up. I knew what I was looking at when I looked at parts of pieces, but I really didn't know, like, how to make,

I didn't know how to, you know, change the geometry on my street stock car to make it turn better or little things like. like that, but how valuable was that information for you? Oh, it's huge. You know, I meant obviously I had a great teacher, you know, so there's, I felt like every time that I built a car, it was pretty close to start with because I, because of my dad, he knew where things needed to go. So I think in the beginning, I really didn't understand it. But because with his direction, everything was good.

I meant there, most of the cars I've race until I moved down here, I built. And that was, I think that's the most satisfying thing to build the car and make it go faster. Because I don't think there's anything much better than that. You know, coming down here, of course, you want to, that's a little different story. But so I don't know if you said when that time when I finally actually understood it, but it was, it was early on that I understood the adjustment that we're making and what they were going to do. Now, some of it, like if I started out blank and trying to figure out exactly what those measurements are, that's obviously the hardest part. But we had a good starting point, I think,

when I raced. Yeah. And so we are never that far off. But still, that extra, you know that, that extra to get to go in the race is very complicated. Yeah, for sure. When did you, when did you decide, you know, that you wanted to move to asphalt? What was that opportunity like? It was, I think my dad was happy because I wanted to run dirt. You know, he wanted me to run asphalt. So he'd give me a little leeway on that, but he was like, I don't want you to run it more in three years. And we got super busy then because we were, like I said, we were building a lot of spindles. We got, we have our own quick change rear ends with dump cans.

I mean, we were doing everything. And so after I ran dirt three years, I actually took a year off just to build cars, go help people. Because I was burned out. I was working. I was doing that. also working full time at a tool and die job. So I was just, I wasn't getting any sleep. And so I finally says, I'm not running this year and just went to help customers.

And at that point, time I decided build an asphalt car. And then, you know, go race at Berlin and give that a shot. And I had driven my dad's car around there, but I was like 13. And but that's about the only time I ever been on a racetrack. And it is by far the hardest place that you can. I say, I still say to win there. on a consistent basis, my top five hardest racetracks to do good at. Explain to me what's so difficult.

There's no straightaway. It's just round. I don't know if I could pick a track that would be similar that I've ever ran down here. I don't know if there's one that. I haven't bet on one that I thought it was as difficult as that. No, it's easy to get around there. I mean, don't get me wrong. It's hard to go fast around there.

And to get to that point where you could win. races. I think I ran there two years before I won a feature. But once I got that figured out, we won all the time. It was just that. It just those little small things. And it's tough. Yep. You were racing in the pavement ranks in southwest Michigan, art go late models at Berlin, Kalamazoo. Iceman Super Lates at Toledo championships at Berlin, started racing in the ASA series in 1990. That's a change. The ASA series is a touring series. Yes.

Right? I'm assuming that your success presented you with an opportunity. How did you get into the ASA ranks? The ASA part started at Butch Miller, big name in ASA. He was not that far from us. And so we built their spindles. We built their rear ends. We did all that.

Well, when Butch moved down here, I think because I was doing all that parts. And then we ran good at Berlin. We're pretty fast. And so Leroyer Troop from Troop Motorsports called me and asked me if I wanted to try S.A. And at first, I think I said yes. And I thought, what am I doing? I love 50 lap races. I don't really want to run 200 lap races.

This seems insane. Yeah. And but I did take the opportunity. And, but he also brought in Bobby Seneca. So Bobby Seneca is my teammate and or vice versa. So we ran together. And so the two years we did that, I think we finished eighth in a points my rookie year.

And then we finished fourth, my second year. And then Libra was wanting to go down to just a one car game. Because it's like race, it's expensive. And he had a hard time telling me this. And I go, I kind of figured out what's going on. And I go, well, I go, if I was sitting in your shoes, I'd put Bobby Seneca in my car too. Yeah. You know, how many, he's very good.

He raced with my dad for many, many years. And so at that point in time, I was, I'd, didn't know what I was going to do. I think I was just going to go back around Berlin. That was right at the time that they came out with a new car. And I was like, time this happened. I go, I do not have enough time to try to design a car because it was drastically different than what we were running. And so I thought, well, I'll just build a car, run at Berlin. I'm okay with that. And then partly from Port City called me. And he goes, you have to run this by your dad because they built race cars, but we built rear ends for them. We kind of did stuff back and forth.

And he goes, I'll give you a car because he says, you got to run. I'll give you a car. He got a car in an engine. And then I got two engines. And then I ran it ourselves through our own place. And that was a task. I didn't think I was going to be, that was going to be tough. Great sponsors, you know, Bridges Chevrolet. They had sponsored my dad's forever. And then that year we went out in pretty much tied it. I think we finished second. I think it was by one point. I think it was a tiebreaker with, I think Mike won one more race than I did.

And then the following year, we'd won the championship on that. Yeah. So you won races at Columbus, Milwaukee, Berlin. You won races at Columbus again the following year during the championship season in 93. You won at Nashville Fairgrounds. We're getting ready to go run there this weekend. in the Cars Tour. You know, what was winning the ASA championship like for you?

I asked that question because my memory of the ASA at that time was it was like what the Truck Series is today. You know, the Truck Series didn't exist. Truck Series would come in a couple years after you won that championship, actually. But Mark Martin, Bob Seneca, Butch Miller. All these guys, Dick Trickle, had risen the profile of the ASA up to, you know, basically like a Bush North or a very reputable, challenging, difficult series. Yeah.

And so winning that must have put in some eyeballs on you and gave you some opportunity. It did. I think it was a group five sales. I think it is that brought that and got to TV and on that. That was the biggest help. Yeah, TNT. For sure. T&T or TN, whatever.

TN, yeah. That was probably the biggest help on that. And so, I mean, my goal, it was kind of weird to say this, but my goal wasn't to get down here. I just loved racing. I loved racing. I was okay with doing it around home and things that nature. And it was actually your dad was the one. I did an autograph session with him at Bridges Chevrolet and we had an ASA car there.

And, of course, he brought the crew up there. They used my car to do a pit stop for all the fans. and stuff like that and chatted with your dad, but that was about it, just from the autograph thing. And I can't, I don't remember what time of year it was. It was still when I was running ASA, though. He had called and we had three different shops and have a phone in one shop. My mom comes out there and says, guy in a phone for you. I said, who is it? He says, it's a turn heart. And I thought, okay, you know, just say, I'm sure you heard these stories a hundred times, right? It blows my mind. I'm like, yeah, whatever.

You know, somebody's just screwed around. And about an hour and a half later, he called back in. I thought, well, maybe I better take it. I don't know. And then he was like, Benson, Bernard. And I started laughing. And he goes, he goes, I want you to drive my car at Dover. And I'm like, what?

You know, and I says, okay. And then, you know, he was pretty short because he's, I don't have my people get a hold of your people. And I go, I don't have people. Yeah. But then somebody did call me back and they said, uh, I don't remember if it was good ranch or ACDLCO or what was on the car at that point in time.

They said they wouldn't let Dale not run the race. You know, because back then I don't, um, did you ever run it when it was 500 miles? No. That was. Yeah. And, and it was at that time because I think when I ran it, my first year was 500. And they switched it to 400, which best thing ever did. But, uh, so they wouldn't let.

him not run it and he says and then he just says I'll have I'll work something out well that's when he got a hold of Ernie Irvin and I ran Ernie's car for the first time so that that I think that was prompted through your dad through through Berger when I did the autograph thing and I think because of the TV that the TV is the if they didn't have TV ASA wouldn't be known when it is today probably but I wish it would have carried on it's great series yeah so you get the opportunity to race in Ernie's car at Michigan. Yep. And that didn't go as well as you'd hoped.

Ended up flipping the car, which is... And the second lap. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I can imagine that that was pretty disheartening to be given, you know, to, here's my, here's my chance. Yeah. Got a good car. Then it goes that way.

And you're like, you know, what was? What was the emotions? The whole week was kind of funny or not funny, but of course, I get down there and there's no race car. And I go, okay, this ain't good. I'm looking for Ernie. His car's there. Well, Ernie was at the hospital because Kim was that they were having her first baby. And I'm standing down there.

There's no car. Well, I don't know. The guy got, I wouldn't say got lost, but got in a spot where he couldn't get underneath the bridge. So he was like an hour and a half like. And so I really only only got. maybe maybe 10, 15 laps of practice before going into qualifying. And no, qualifying went horrible, but in, I thought, okay, be patient, which I was.

I just got, I just got bumped coming off turn two. And I remember your dad and Ernie were going, why would they put me at Michigan for one? Right. It's a big old place. And they're like, well, you're not going to get upside down. Everything would be fine. And, of course, that happened coming off too. And it was quite a ride.

Yeah. And of course, when I get out and I go, really? He said we never get up, slide down here. So I kind of proved that wrong. But that did open the door where Ernie is like, I'm going to help you somehow. And it ended up, I think he went wearing a couple races for base motorsports. And then he got me into that. Yeah.

So that's interesting to have Ernie be that person for you. you and him stay in contact today? Not too much. He mainly lives down in Florida now. I did see him at Darlington. I did chat with him for a little bit there. But yeah, I meant he always laughs because he took that frame and put it in his pond out in his front yard. So he's using it, you know, for the fish.

And I forget who bought their house. And they were laughing about it. The car was still there. They finally got rid of it. Stenhouse ended up buying it. Yeah, I think it was. I think it was. Yeah.

And so, no, that was a big. help. I mean, Chevrolet was a big help. You know, with Birger sponsored my dad. I think they started to sponsor my dad, 1976, and they still sponsor us on anything we want to do with the super that I've run. That was always a big help. They, big, strong ties with Chevrolet.

You ran full time for base in 1994, winning your first Bush Series race at Dover that year. This is when, I mean, I remember you running an ASA and I remember seeing the races on TV. and hearing your name and when you started getting these opportunities to run in the Bush series, that's kind of where I started

picking up on your career. You know, base motorsports was a great race team. We won a couple championships with Randy LaJoy right before I would get into the series. You feel like you had kind of a role in helping that team develop and evolve. I mean, Jack Sprags was there for a while,

but they were kind of still trying to get their legs, so to speak, to become that team. that they would become. Yeah, I don't know how long they were around when I went there. I remember Jack being in there because, you know, Jack Sprag didn't grow up that far from me. And I built one of his, I wouldn't say his first race car.

I built one of his early race cars. So I've known him. And that was kind of odd for, I was kind of uncomfortable because it was like they're getting rid of Jack and putting me in there. I thought, I'd rather have going to somebody that you didn't know than it does. I don't know if that makes sense.

Oh, yeah. But, and then I thought we ran pretty good. it, we had ran at Charlotte. And I think I was, we ran pretty good. And then somebody, somebody blew up. And we got, we got tied up in a crash there. But then we ran Rockingham and we were, I think, running second with, I don't know how many

laps catching a leader. And then, I don't, I think it was just the roll pin in a distributor come off and, in it, quit running. And I thought, you kidding me with only a couple laps ago. And my, was my second or third race. So that's when Bump Carter hired me. I said, I wasn't hired yet. I just ran a couple of races.

Really? Yeah. And, of course, when I get down there, we'd run, we started running good. And he kind of kind of laughed, he'll be over, sitting there talking. He goes, how old are you? And I told him I was 30, and he's like 30. He was, crap, I'd known that. I never hired you.

You know, I says, well, I said, what are you going to do now then? I don't know. I don't know if he just thought I was younger or he wanted somebody younger. And it wasn't that way. I'm glad he didn't throw me out of the door right then. So, because we obviously had a good, a good run with that. But it did take a little bit of time to get going. Steve Bird was tremendous to work with.

Legendary. Yeah. And a lot of races. And I think that, I don't think people understand really the relationship with the crew chief, how important it is. But we just clicked. And, you know, he's a racer. I'm a racer.

There's just no bull crap. Yeah. This is what I want. This is what I love. like and this is and then we had to figure it out and Charlotte was where that happened because I was I wasn't that good there at to start with and I and I go dude I looked at your history stuff you you always hauled ass here and I think with Robbie Romero or Robbie Moroso and I said why I'll make any sense he goes why don't have that set up in a car and I says well I go that you guys are

really fast just put it in and let me figure it out when he switched that over man that thing just hauled but and I says look I'll figure it out and we ran good ever since then. He was like, I think he was just being, I think he was being cautious to not get you a fast race car. But sometimes a slower race car is harder and more dangerous than a fast one. Yeah. We bridge that gap pretty quick and then we were pretty good.

Yeah. Yeah, a lot of success. 19 top tens, won the Bush Series championship in 1995, won at Atlanta, which is a tough racetrack. Yes, it is. Yep, Hickory, another tough one, two completely different ends of the spectrum. You also competed in the inaugural truck series race in 1995. You had a best finish of second at IRP.

The success was Bumgarner and the base motorsports, you know, quickly got you snatched up into the Cup series for Bihari. I used to go over to that shop when Michael was driving there, and I knew a couple of guys on the team and would go over there and hang out with them when I was 15, 16, years old. And, you know, when they had, they were kind of a unique team. They were probably much different when you got there, but I would go over there and

they would have some really, really good race cars, you know, and then they would have a couple cars at an inch and a half bondo on the quarter panels and stuff that they'd just been, you know, they were just getting by with. They'd take to the short tracks. But, you know, they started really, you know, they started that team with Michael. many, many years ago, and they were developing themselves into a contender even when Michael was driving the car. So you got an opportunity to get in that car when it was sort of cresting up and you were able to take it even further and, you know, have some really solid runs with that

team. Yeah. They weren't an A team. That was, you know, they were a, they were a B team. And you obviously knew that. What was getting that opportunity like? Were you hesitant even? the success you were having with base to go to that team or take that next step. Yeah, I don't know if I was ready to do that. I didn't really think I was ready to do Bush, tell you truth. And I think sometimes you have that success so early. I think sometimes it's one of those deals that I think you should just wait a minute and continue that.

But then you had so many people down there saying, dude, if you got the opportunity to take it. And I honestly thought it was too early. Even though my age, I mean, I think my age helped me in that probably. But that was tough. I meant, that's tough. That's a tough move. And we did have some good runs. I mean, Indy was our right there at the beginning.

I thought, okay, we're running good. We just kind of messed up at the end with a pit stop. And that didn't go well. I stalled the car and then all of a sudden we're way back. But we had a shot at winning at that first year with many lapses of the way. We ran. But another place that we did run. We had a lot of glimpse of really being a pretty good situation.

But they were building their own engines there. Of course, you're buying cars, but we're doing our own body, stuff like that. I don't think they had the funding to do it. And Doug Hewitt was amazing. Probably one of the great crew chiefs that I worked with, Doug Hewitt. He's awesome. And I really wish I would have stayed there longer. Really?

And because I think there was that opportunity. But at that time, I think both me and Doug were kept going to Chuck. Ryder owned it at that time saying that we need these tools to win. And his was like, well, if we win a race, we'll get those tools. And so there was that little bit of conflict there. And I think that's, I think they could have been really, really good. I think they were great. They could have been really great.

They were right there on the cusp of like triggering something pretty remarkable with a team. And with a sponsor like Penzel, you know, it seemed like it was just right around the corner. Hey, this is Dellenhart Jr. And for all the latest Dale Jr. download gear, including the Imo drink some beer t-shirt we've been talking about here around the office. Head over to shop.dirtymomedia.com for all the latest merch. How did you get the opportunity to go to Jack? You know, what was that? Do you remember that phone call?

No, it wasn't a phone call. Well, it, this is muddy waters on this, but I was approached from actually somebody from NASCAR basically telling me I needed to go over there. I never talked to that. Yeah. And so I didn't, I didn't want to, but I felt like I was getting forced to go over there. And then, uh. So I remember, I know, it's, uh, I remember that whole deal feeling just a little off. It was.

It was. because when I was hired to do it from Jack, because I eventually obviously talked to Jack, I didn't end up at the car. I was supposed to be here in Mooresville, Buddy Parrott was supposed to be the crew chief, and that's how that road was going. And then within a month,

everything turned upside down. You had already decided to do it. Yeah, I was already committed to do it. Yeah, so you always walked away from what you had. Yep. And, and, but I didn't, you know, I only had that, a two-year contract with the 30. And, and I think that, that was actually the first contract over had, because I run for base and I have a contract. You know, just go race.

That's why I did. So that was, that was a difficult part there because I felt like I was shoved to go over that way. And that was not my wish. But I didn't know how to handle that. I mean, I'm new down there. Yeah. You know, I didn't, I didn't talk to as many people as I should have. But at the same time.

But at the same time, it looked like it was a step up. I think it would have been if it would have done what the original agreement was. Yeah. I think it really would have been. Yeah. But when you got there, it seemed like right out of the gate, it was a difficult. It was. We started, well, Daytona, I think it was that first year, missed race.

Both me and David Greener were running. We're both in race. And for whatever reason, and he tried to go by me on the last lap. And he got loose and hit us and we both spun. Well, I knocked me out of the race. And I was like, dude, we're both in the race. There was nobody around us, you know. So Jack was mad.

I was mad. And so was David. I mean, it's just one of those things. But we started out pretty good. We were really fast. I went to Rockingham. Yeah, you had a good run there. Really good run until the injure broke.

And there were some stuff happened there. Then then all of a sudden they were trying to take our car for us to bring it over to Morseville. And then Steve Mee. at the time was there. And he was blown up because I think he wanted to go with Mark. And like I said, everything changed at that point in time. And then he was down there with a torch. He said, I'll cut this car up before they take it from us.

And I knew at this point in time, I go, this is not going to be good. So I had a four-year deal. And after two years, I walked away. So I remember it coming out of the gate pretty strong, looking good, looking positive. And then it was like a struggle every single week to get resolved. results. It was horrible. Yeah. I just have a hard time understanding like I have I know that Jack and Roush Roush as a history are different there's a different culture and a different place to work. We've talked with Biffle on the show and several other people and it was a functioning

place that could be successful and you could actually go there and produce but they did things a certain way and Jack operated with a certain outset and mindset or approach. And if that you didn't fit, you didn't fit. And then, you know, and so what were the things, I guess, you know, what, what was a repairable? Why? What, you know, not many, no one that I know of, even when things got, you know, when things got difficult have, you know, maybe McMurray, I don't know, but not many people have wanted to, escape the situation.

So what was it repairable for you? It was like a five-car team at that point. It was, but there... Was it just spread too thin? Oh, very thin. I think they wanted their top two cars to win, and that's all they cared. Now, if I owned a five-car team or four-car team, I want them all to win. I want them all to run them first, second, third, and fourth, if there's five.

That would be the goal. I don't think that was her goal. I think your goal is to make sure that these two ran really good. It's the only thing I can think of. We were, we were a skeleton group. We had more people on a bush team than we had at, at Rouse. When I was at base motor sports, had more people. And if you're going to run a cup series, that's, that's difficult.

You know that's, I don't, you know, I think it could be efficient, but it just wasn't, not with, not with no people. And, you know, we did a couple, crash, couple cars, and that, that, that came to turning point. because Jack, I mean, I do like Jack, but working for there was tough. And it got to the point. I forget where we were at the points. And he said, I'm going to start charging you if you wreck another car. And I told him, I said, Jack, I said, I've wrecked more race cars running for this team. And I have my entire career.

I don't think it's all me. I said, I'll take some blame, but it ain't all me. And I said, so I got a little offended to him saying I had to pay for the wrecked cars. I told them that if you don't, I says you didn't not, don't pay me the rest of the year. And if you don't get me in a top 12 in points, I said, find another driver. Yeah. And that's where it ended. I mean, I made it through the year.

But it was over at that point in time. Man. And that was at Charlotte because we were testing there. Mark was there. And there's a, there's no worse feeling to have Mark Martin jump to the car to go run, right? He's going to run two, three times faster, no matter who it is. You know, it could be in Gordon's car or whoever. What he did.

He went out there and he ran about two times faster at Charlotte. And he'd come in here and said, man, this is one of the best cars I've ever driven. And I says, great. I says, I will trade you. You could have that car. I want your car. Because he was three quarters of a second slower than he was in his car. Yeah.

And he just got done saying that's the best car I've ever driven. Yeah. And I says, well, we're trading right now. You know, and then he got a little confused with that. until he looked at the times and he just walked away and say word he's like oh that's not good because it drove good just went last yeah yeah and it and that was the start of the you know they fired the crew chief and i don't think that was the right thing to do and i mean it just was a down i see where it's going so i just at the end of yours just find somebody else when you were

looking for your way to um to exit where what opportunities did you you have on the table? I didn't. Yeah. I didn't. There was an opportunity with Yates, and I talked to Doug Yates there for a little bit. And they had said that, you know, hey, if you got out of that, we'd hire you. Well, I didn't get out of that for that reason.

I think I was already doing it when they talked about it. When I did get it done, they had already hired Ricky Rudd. So at that point in time, I was like, well, we'll just see what happens. and that's pretty much how I got involved with getting in a... Tyler Jet. Tyler Jet. Yeah. I'd say to Ten Car.

I don't know if it started off of the Ten Car. Yeah. That would become the Ten Car. A lot of people remember you mostly outside of your truck series success driving this Ten Car, particularly in a race at Daytona in the 500, the first year you go, you guys go up there. You've got no sponsorship. There was a lot of great conversation.

around your team, the speed y'all had, and y'all were able to, I think, get Likos on the car. We did. We had that. I don't know how real it was. Yeah, right? We did have it on.

But it was just still a white car with a little logo on the side. And I remember y'all made a gamble at the end of the race on tires to try to go out there and win the race and almost pulled it off. you know, that was a, what was unique about this team? Because this was the team, you know, you'd, you'd, you'd came into the 30 car with pins oil. The results were good. The team was improving.

It didn't, it didn't tank. It didn't, you know, the performance didn't drop off when Michael got out and you got in it or whoever was in the car before. I always associate that car of Michael Walter. But you go to Roush in it, it flamed out really bad. It did. And everybody, no one would know really why and just assume, man, if it didn't work at Roush, where is it going to work? But this was a team where you really found success. What was it about this group?

I knew one or two people over there. And when I went over there, the one thing I guess I did like about it, there were all short track guys working on this car. And just people that I've seen around a garage area. And some of the people I've known outside of that that run, like James Inns was there, you know, he was big into dirt cars and the outlaw dirt cars and with, you know, Larry Phillips and Terry Phillips, stuff like that. And there was three or four other guys that I recognized from, some of them from ASA, some of them from here.

I thought, man, this would be kind of cool. They're all short track guys. And maybe that's not a good or bad thing in this particular sport. but I do like their ambition to make sure everything's right and get done and fast working at it. And that was an atmosphere that it had. And so that's when I says, I would love to run it. And just as long as it goes, it goes. It doesn't matter.

And Daytona, you know, we were good at Daytona. We struggled a little bit. And after I think we pulled the qualifying engine out, then all of a sudden we lost some speed. And then we had some conversation with Randy Dorton and Rick and all that. And they gave us a different engine. And we picked back up to where we felt that we were already going to be. And then we run the, was it, 125s with it. And then I think a hundred, they actually flew that engine back and redid it and brought it back for the 500.

So a lot of that success was just over that conversation or just that one engine switch. we were like, how do we lose so much speed? And with them doing that, I think is one of the main reasons why we were good. We did do two tires at the end. And actually, cars still pretty good. It drove really good. But I got too far out on a restart. And then I'm looking, I was in a Pontiac had four fords behind me.

I knew I was a sit and duck. And it was a matter. I tried to come down. But once he got me loose, and I remember your dad went over and says, man, I would have put him in that pond. You know, cut them off. I go, yeah, but I would have been with them because all I'm doing is trying not to wreck the car at this point in time. And I just slid up enough he got underneath me.

And I thought, well, that's over. But it's still a great run. Yeah. I mean, it was fantastic. I mean, obviously everybody wants that to turn out different. But I think we still finish 12th in that. For me down there, that was great. Yeah.

It was awesome. So you run second at Bristol and your best cup finished at that point. The team was sold to MB2. MB2's a unique team with a lot of unique history that had some success over the years. What was that transition like? Was it more stabilizing? Or was there some uncertainty? No, it was definitely more stable because it felt like we were going from, we tried to mess the system up a little bit.

We went to, where was it? I think it was California to test. Well, we didn't have any cup tests left. So you went there as a Winston-West. Well, we got caught. And, you know, Mike Kelton's like called. And he goes, yeah, you are running that race, right? And I think at that time, James goes, oh, we just got caught.

He goes, oh, yeah, we're running that race. So we brought that car out there. We had to run the West race. And we won that race. And then they, where did we get the engine? I think we got the engine from Hendrick through Sprague. I think it was one of Sprague's engines. And then they deemed it illegal.

And then it was like, all. of a sudden taking a win or a $40,000 fine. Well, Tim Beverly, they have the money. Well, you have to pay that for you can run the next race. So we were loading everything up for the cup race. Everybody's like, what's going on? He says, you can't pay a fine. We're going home.

And then, of course, then they come back and says, oh, hold on. And he goes, no, that's your rule. That's what we're doing. And I don't know what they worked out. They either cut it way down. I still don't think you paid it at that point in time. but that's when we realized that financially we were a lot more troubled. And that's when MVP two kind of stepped in at that point.

So it didn't really change. Our team didn't change. We just changed corners. Yeah. You got Valvillin as a sponsor. And you'd have a really strong run at Dover, second at Dover, finished 13th in points, came back in 2001, won the Winston Open. continued with them as well in 2002. I want to talk about you had a crash at Richmond in the Bush series and broke some ribs,

missed a couple races, and then gotten a car and broke them again. Yeah, there's, it's, the Richmond won. I mean, I broke some ribs in my back there, but they were a little bit more problem. I had a shadow on my ear or my heart. That's what kind of kept me out of the. really out of the thing and they kind of watched that for a little bit at least for the two days or whatever and so that was either go or no go either to have a surgery or not and what were they

thinking they were going on they think i ripped it on yeah from the rack because it was it was pretty hard hit but uh but then ended up they kept checking i don't know how many um CT scans and MRIs that i went through in that 24 hour period it was a lot And then they finally said, okay, I think we're okay, but you probably ought to not run for a little bit. So I did. I stayed out. And I can't remember which one I get back to first. I think I don't remember if it was, I think it was at Daytona is where I heard him again.

Yeah. Where me and Michael got hooked together. And but that was on a different side, though. It was just, I don't know why my ribs. I don't know what the deal is. I had the joy seats. Everything was good there. It's just some of the impacts are just hard.

hard. I mean, we all know that. And they were just, I don't know if, I don't know, it doesn't make any sense. And, you know, I got with a joy and, and, uh, Jonathan Paul that's down here. And, you know, he was just taking x-rays where all the broke, happened to be the same angle as a seat. So that's when we, uh, Randy and I started doing it different things on there that helped a bunch. Yeah. So working with Randy on his seats and all that. That was pretty cool. And, and, um, but I think That's just my background of wanting to make things better and things that nature. And there was obviously a reason why we were breaking stuff. Yeah.

At the end of that year, you would go to Rockingham and get your first couple in, which was remarkable. I think the opinion of the, the opinion of the fan base and even the garage was really, y'all were still that little team that could, you know. I think so, yeah. Yeah. And doing a lot was a little.

James was the crew chief at the time and I want to you know that win seemed like that was going to be the catalyst right to send y'all forward James would end up stepping away from the operation yeah he did

like all of a sudden and that that kind of turned us upside down but exactly that was one of those deals though that we were trying to build cars in house we were still running in Hopkins or Laughlin's or whatever it was. And the other side, I don't know who came here. I know Schrader was there for a good bit.

I don't know if it was Skinner or somebody else come in there or Nemechak. And they were trying to build their own cars. Well, one of those things felt like I always got stuck in these, but they weren't as financial strong there as that it kind of appeared to be. Yeah. Although great. I mean, it was still good. But all of a sudden, they were pushing to build their own cars. I did do some testing on it. And I says, oh, the cars, I think it's got potential, but it was kind of, it was kind of evil. It was unpredictable. And so I wouldn't run it. And so we stayed with our stuff. Well, I think it put too much stress on James at that time. And he just walked out. I know. Like, y'all just, y'all kind of just won Rockingham not long after that. He just stayed. steps away. You never got any answer on. No, no, I don't, I sure don't know really what it was. I mean, I know there was a lot of, there was a lot of pressure in a sport. We know that. But I think it was

that. I think it was being forced to do something with these cars or whatever the situation was. And then Jay Guy stepped into that there in Gary Putnam. And we actually finished a year off just fine. I mean, it didn't really change. I think the last race that I ran would have been at Miami, and I think we finished fourth in that race. And then it was kind of over at that point in time. And they were just like, I don't think, I know Riggs drove it there for a short bit,

but I don't think it went very long after that. No. Because it was, it was starting to head that way. It was. Like when James left, I mean, not, I just felt like that he was, he and you were a good combination and a good reason. and a good reason why that car continued to sort of produce and improve. And eventually, you know, it wins this race that we're all expecting.

That was going to, you know, y'all were kind of running second, third, fourth, fifth, finally get this win. And then he decides that he needs to get out of here. And it was never the same since. At the end of 2003, they would release you and bring in rigs. Riggs comes in and, you know, tried his best to make it work. Rodney Chilers was a crew chief. one point for that team who's here in Juniper's sports, Rodney would go on to have great

experience. But you would go back to the Bush series. Was there a, you'd go race for James in the Phoenix racing, which is always a good time. Yeah. Yeah. The, which is such an interesting landing spot for you, right? You seem like a very reserved, you know, methodical, smart decision. I'm not going to do this unless it works. It feels good. And James's operation was very a little flamboyant, you know, a little brash, very honest about who they were. Yeah. And that was an odd couple, odd pairing. But had you, did you seek out more opportunities at the cup level when they released you from the tent? Or did this pop up and you went, man, that sounds good. Well, I love James. I but he's awesome. But I knew going in that this was a five or six, right? steal even though we're supposed covered for the year i meant everybody standing there watches we see what happened yeah if you're gonna win every week he's gonna try something different and i knew that going in

really i was like i'm fine with us okay and but you know we were still doing our tv show so i always had something to yeah uh lay back on so it was like i go well this would be fun and we did we went there and and we did have some good runs but uh where was it um gateway you know we're shifting there back then. Well, the shifting handle kept falling off. And well, you got, he was upset over that and a couple other things. And like we, I think even Texas, we qualified horrible. And even though the car is fast and I actually complained there's something on the track. Well, they went out and checked. I went to finish my qualifying thing. And we just, we didn't put the caps on the water heater or cool down unit. So I was spraying water out. So I started at the back. It was yellow freight race with

yellow fray down the car. We drove up and I think we finished 30th or fourth. And James is just mad that I'm like, all your people were happy. But at that point in time, I go, I know he's going to make a change eventually. Really?

Which he did. I knew that going in now. Yeah. It's been things. So then, you know, I was still doing some TV. Then I obviously got an opportunity to go to the trucks.

One of the things that I hear from you is, um, anything. anything that happened to you that would maybe most people might view as disappointing really didn't get under your skin no

um is that like is that something that you're is that some trait from your father is that you're you know you kind of go into these situations going I know what I'm I know what I'm facing I know what could and can happen and if it did go well it went well if it didn't go well if it didn't go well you moved on to the next thing without any, I mean, do you, is there real frustration that, that you hide? Is there, is there, you know, some disappointments that eat at you or all that stuff is just kind of water under the bridge?

Oh, it's, you know what's going to. There is, there is those spots where it does do that, but there's so many things out of your control that you can, you know, you can leave there and be mad. Of course, you are when that happens. Don't get me wrong. You are. But it's like, I can't fix that. Yeah. So how much of it do I want to ruin my life before I decide to go up the other way? Yeah. I learned out on that pretty early. I think just working with my dad and how he approached things and how hard he worked. I mean, it was working for my dad was tough. I mean, he, he, he's a workaholic. You know, we did the race shop. He worked at at the railroad. you know, I worked there and then I had a full-time job when it was doing the same thing.

And I used to always laugh. I says, I love Sundays because that was my day off because I only had to work from noon to six. And I love Sundays, you know, and work for my dad. And I think that that I didn't really get that frustrated because I didn't see him get that frustrated. And I think that that's just probably just my way of dealing with it. It was like, well, if this happens and it already happened, I can't fix it. So why wait too long for you to say, you know what? Just move on and find something else to do.

Because I always felt like if it didn't work out and I could always go back home. Yeah. I could always go back home and build cars. And you would. I would. Yeah. And I did. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I did it down here.

When I was racing cup, I had so many customers wanting to want me to build cars. And I said, look, I'm not going up to Michigan to do it. So I build a building down here by next. store to champion tire. And I think through all my cup stuff I was doing, I was still building the race cars for other people. Damn. And I quit doing it probably about eight, nine years ago.

I finally stopped. You know, and I was like, I don't know this. Now, they did. Everybody thought I moved back to Michigan. Yeah. You ended up landing in the, in the 23 truck for Bill Davis racing at the back end of the 2004 season or sometime around then. and would have a lot of fun, I imagine.

I mean, watching, yeah, watching you run that truck and know that every weekend you've got an opportunity to run in the top three, you're going to win races. We were talking about this series yesterday. The truck series was solely developed to market the truck vehicle, right? But it was also a place where a lot of guys found a home where they could race for a living. that didn't exist for a long time. You know, you might, yeah.

I mean, ASA or maybe in the Bush series, but the top of dines of the world, Mike Skinner's, a lot of guys ended up in the truck series and made a nice living to be able to kind of finish out, you know, that sort of 20-year, you know, career that we all hope to have.

And you were able to do that in that truck and have a lot of fun. I mean, was that as good or as much fun as you had behind the wheel of a stock car as it looked? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't care what series is. If you're running good and you can, you know, propel the team or to get these, you know, wins and all that, it's always fun.

It doesn't matter what level you're at. And what we did. We had good success there, you know, good crew chiefs. I ran there three and a half years, I think it is. I came in there halfway through. and we bumped right and going well. And I thought, okay, this is pretty cool. And I was on a handshake deal.

We went from race to race. I said, and I finally told Bill, I said, I hate calling on Wednesday and saying we're racing, not racing. So I finally just told them, I go, only call me when you don't want me to run. And then that way I could keep in contract with a crew chief and try to figure out your travel plans. Because every week, I'm like, I don't know if I'm racing or not racing. Really? So he says, all right. So we did that.

And we did that for three years. Yeah. So. You were the most popular driver in the series. Well, appreciated by the fans. Yeah. Imagine that was a good feeling. Probably as good as any championship.

I met you. How many times you won it? It's awesome, right? Yeah. It is awesome. You would win a lot of races and win the most popular driver award multiple times. You know, you won these championships and had all this success. It was over.

Yeah. The career at that level was over. over. Now, you're going to talk about it. You go on to do a lot more in racing beyond that point. This is a part of the show where I like to ask this question because it's as much for me as it is for the person sitting in that chair. But what was the process like, I suppose, in closing the door on racing at, you? you know, the truck O'Reilly or Cup level, right? Mentally, those doors are open. You're in a truck, you're winning races,

and so mentally you're open to whatever opportunity you might walk in the door. But at some point, you say, you know what, I'm ready, like your dad, you know, got up one day and said, I don't think I won't drive anymore. You know, one day you said, you know what, I'm going to go home.

I'm going to redirect my focus in racing to something else. what was that like you're down here you've established a foundation you've got a shop you're building cars you're doing all these things it i mean it's tough i mean i just i knew at that point in time that before the year was over when we were running a truck won the truck championship i knew that team was closing so like wasn't a whole lot of opportunities um and and I wasn't sure really what I wanted to do. I know Harvard could call me once and asked about going over the truck. And I was interested in that.

I really was. But then it was when we won a championship and then Bill Davis is close, I called him. Well, he wanted me to leave like before five races to go. And I said, dude, I can't do that. Not in the middle of running for a championship. And I'm running against his truck. And so that, that, I was. I was actually kind of excited about that.

But then when a year was done, he was like, well, no, you didn't want to do it. And I said, well, I did. But I just assumed you're going to wait to the end of the year, not during the middle of year or not. I mean, there was only four races ago. And so at that point in time, I was like, I don't know, you know, what is it, Red Horse racing. They hired all of us from there to go try to win a championship.

And, you know, we build all the bodies or try. triad did there, but he came down there. And I thought that was going to be a really good situation. And then I think we were six in points. The teammate was like 21st, somewhere in that area. And I think he started to see how expensive this is to run for a championship. Because it is running to win races or running for a championship today are two different budgets. And I think he saw that.

I thought that this is not going to work. So he was basically saying, you need to build trucks like the other team. And I go, well, hold it. We're six and points are back. I said, that's going backwards. And I've always been very vocal about moving backwards. I'm going to say something.

I'm not just going to sit there. Okay, this would be fine. Well, then he fired all of us. So I thought, okay, I go, you know what? That was actually better than the road. We were going to go down. And at that point in time, I said, you know what?

I have a great opportunity to come along. I'll do it. If not, I'm not going to. Yeah. And so I didn't, I didn't really dwell on it. I mean, I felt like I, for sure, could go in there and be competitive. I knew that. Yeah. But I didn't have anything to prove to anybody, so I didn't care.

I was like, well, I'll just do something else. And that was still just, you know, building race cars and still racing. I'm, I still raced. It just not at that level. Yeah, you went back to Super Modifieds. You, you run. You raced a super for Brad Litchie. Yeah, Licti.

Licti? Yeah. You went back to and raced into Emsomodifieds at Berlin in 2006. You made your first start in 06 there. You went to Sandusky, nearly won the race. So that is something that I think is really fun and fascinating. A lot of guys, when they decide that they're done at the cup level, they don't look to going back to where they came from, right?

I told myself, you know, I want to kind of go out the same way I came in. I want to go run a couple of Bush races or a rally or Xfinity races and did that. And now I'm running my little late model car, the same stuff I was racing when I was just getting my start. And it's been amazing to go back to these race tracks that I ran at and see a lot of the same people. now their fathers or grandfathers and their sons are racing and so forth, but the same families. And the vibe or culture and atmosphere within the garage or in the pits that these racetracks

hasn't changed all that much. And I'm curious that a lot of guys like ourselves don't go that route. A lot of guys, when they finish driving, like Jeff Gordon, for example, he's a great example like Jeff when he retired from the cup he has zero interest now he plays a little bit

he drive a little irock thing with with ray over at ten tents and he ran a little Porsche race at indie one day but I'm like man you still could do it if you wanted to right you could come jump in yeah you could jump in their O'Reilly car or one of ours and go race at a track

that he loves and just have fun one day he's zero interest. But then there's other guys that still want to race and they go find things to do. Go find racetracks to race at. And that's what you did. You weren't done driving. You weren't ready to be done driving. What was the appeal, I suppose, of going back to the short tracks? Well, I think short tracks are my passion. I love them probably more. I mean, you know, going to the Super Speedways, when you run your Charlotte's Daytonas, Teledgas, are kind of cool at the beginning until you wrecked there once or twice. And then I dread it. I didn't dread going there.

I didn't care as far as that. But it was like, you just know eventually you're going to get tied up into something. And it was, so that was a little less appealing to do. Like if I was going to go play and they give me an opportunity to run in a short track, I got to pick a short track more than I would, Charlotte or Atlanta. And I did help some testing with some people. And, you know, after I'd say it was done. It was after my truck stuff. And I was running a super and my L.A.L.A. model.

And one of the guys that was on the 23, they were, they were testing over at Martinsville. And it's come over and come over and help me. So I did. I went over there and he wanted me to get in. I go, dude, I ain't been in one of these in six, seven, eight years. And that's, of course, they got the big sway on all the different crazy stuff. And wildly fast, lots of power. And so I went out there and ran.

And I go, all right. because the kid, he said you couldn't keep it on the bottom. And then I run right on the bottom. I said, man, I says, this turns better than the truck we won this race with, you know. And we did that for a little bit. And then I was like, right. But then he wanted me to go to Atlanta. And I told him, I said, I really, I'll come down to help.

I don't have any desire of getting a truck. Well, he eventually got me in there. And it was like, you know, Atlanta, like going into turn three there. It's never secure ever, you know, anytime. And it's bad when you're doing it at a weekly basis. So when he had better in one for five, six years, that's not a very good feeling. And so I went in there and I was like, I don't need to be doing this. And I came in, I go, unless we run through two, three sets of tires, I'm not going to be able to help you.

And I said, the kids running faster. I was way faster than I met Martinsville, but down there, I went to run that speed. I was like, I'm going to take more laps than I feel I should be doing this. Yeah. And I don't feel at this point in time I'm helping you. Yeah. So therefore, I'm not doing it. And I mean, I stayed for the rest of the day.

Don't get wrong. But, and we did change a couple things, you know, just based off his comment in the three laps that I did run, I was like, I changed this and this. And they did. They picked up a fair mountain and he was more comfortable. So I guess that was okay. Yeah. So like I say, I like the short tracks. I love to do that.

I love to run my old old light model car. Suit modified is something that was new to me. I've seen them. I've watched them. I've never been in one. and they're crazy. They're insane, how fast they are. And we've run at 5-8-mile tracks faster than we run at

at Shelter Motor Speedway in a cup car. That's insane. And it, it, uh, they're a lot more physical. Like 50 lap race on nose is all you want to do. And they're, they're insane. But, uh, but a lot of fun too. Yeah. Guys are very respectful in those cars.

I imagine you have to be. There is no wheel banging. Yeah. Very little. You were involved in a back crash at Berlin. in 2009, broke your collarbone, separated a shoulder, ribs, bruised your lung, broke your wrist, burns. A lot of stuff.

Yeah. Is that, when you go through something like that, do you have some serious conversations with yourself about whether you need to be doing this at your age? None. No. No. Did anybody? My dad did.

Yeah, right. Did anybody in your family try to not talk some sense to you? And so there, we had that. And I was tied up for a while. And so at the end of the year, Cowbush called me and says, hey, we helped us get down at Smyrna.

And I said, okay, it was the truck team. And I says, the only rule is, at the end of the test, I want to drive a truck because I haven't been in a vehicle. And,

you know, and like I said, I had a severe concussion, which I like talked a little bit about it with that with you later. But, and I was like, watch and crew chief when I was at Bill Davis, Rick, Rick Wren, he was a crew chief then. So I very understand what he was doing.

Reading all the tire sheets and stuff, I saw where they were at. And so it was set up that I got in a truck after Etienne. So I was to get ready. And he goes, well, I'm going to do this to it. And I go, no, I says, free this thing up. I'm looking at all the stuff. The kids running. And I just freed up.

Let's just roll it like we would if you and I were. still racing at Bill Davis, and which he did. So I just left Pit Road and just straight through the gears on the floor. And I ran three laps, came in. I says, I'm good. And he was like, I didn't expect you to leave Pitt Road the way he did and go. And I says, well, that's, I think if you approach it different, you're already in trouble. Yeah. If you don't just go. And I did. And he was like, truck's pretty good. I go, yeah, we run like three, four tenths faster than a kid we were helping, but he didn't have as much experience. But, uh, and I never been at summer. I never been at summer.

bet I'm trying. And so I was like, no, I'm good. And so, you know, good thanks to Kyle for trading that off me to help his guys. And, and then, uh, him let me jump in there. That's, I knew I was fine after that. Well, you got to race a couple of truck races for Kyle Busch. Your final NASCAR start was with Kyle at Texas. Yes. Yeah. 10th. You were trying to put to get, put a deal together with turn one racing in 11, didn't come together. And you're back in the ImsaMata, United Fides. You served on the National Motorsports Appeals panel a few times. I did.

I think it was on for a couple of years. Yeah. Like that's a bit of an honorable opportunity. It is. But man, I tell you what, when you've, you know, when it's all your people that you've raced with and some of your peers and some of them aren't, you know, I just felt like I was in a weird, Oh yeah.

I'm sure it was awkward. And there was one particular case that I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm like there, it's just, it was an odd feeling. I don't know if that makes sense, you know. I mean, everybody, everybody has their idea of pushing rules. An interpretation. Interpretation of the rules. We all do it.

There's anybody that races that hasn't done it. Yeah. And some of them are probably more over the edge than the other, you know. And this was just one of those weird, weird rules. Actually, it was a shock failure, but they wouldn't take it apart to find out what it is. And they're just like wanting to hold that penalty up. And I'm like, hold it. I thought we had that.

That was our role. And it was just kind of different. And then I kind of felt bad because it was like they wanted to define, nobody cares about. But they were really wanting him to like miss the first five or six races. And this was after a Phoenix thing going. I said, dude, you're going to absolutely. destroy his career. If he doesn't have a job going into the season, he's not going to have one the entire season. If that happens in the middle of the year, that's not as, I don't think it's big of a

deal. But so we, we kind of got that term, but it was, I think it was difficult. And, you know, I felt bad. I'd go, man, I don't really want to be in a situation where even though they may have caused a situation, but you hate to put somebody out of racing just because of somebody's decision. And I didn't want to be that person to make a decision. even though it was a group one. But I felt there would be one day that that would be hard to live with, I think. Yeah. So I didn't want to do it.

You got out of that. So this is around 2011, 12, you're back home, you're back racing full-time. You race full-time in 11 and 12 in the Emsa Super Modifieds, wins at Seaconk and other racetracks. you were in the inducted into Hall of Fame at 2013 still driving race cars you joined your father

who went in in 01 you were elected into the Michigan Motorsports Hall of Fame in 2018 still driving race cars you joined your father there who was inducted in 86 you were inducted into the Berlin

Racing Hall of Fame in 22 your father went in in 06 in 2003 you competed in SRX finished 12th at Berlin your final race of your entire career was a 2025 North South shootout at Caraway. Local track here in North Carolina, a super modified event.

You ran fourth. And then you decided to announce your retirement on March 6, 2006. So I remember seeing on social media that Johnny Benson has decided to retire. And I thought, was he racing? I didn't know you'd been racing all these years up there in, you know, up north. Yeah, just around it. Well, yeah, the north and northeast. The cert modified, they don't, you know, they run more up on the east side.

Have you predominantly been driving supermods? I think I only ran one full season. I said I'd love to win a championship in that. Like over from 2011 to 2012 to 2025 on average. What were you racing? How many races a year? Sometimes. Eight, ten?

Eight or ten? Yeah, it's not a lot. A lot of double headers. You know, like Berlin would run at, we'd run a Friday night. Yeah. And then Saturday, there are two totally different shows. It'd be like you showed up instead of the next week. It was just the next day.

And that helped on travel and expenses. And so there's a lot of events like that. And other than Carraway, I mean, we did a practice qualifying near heat races on Friday and then we raced on Saturday. and but you know every time i wanted to go race it was 10-12-hour drive because i still live here so all the races are oh no you never moved back home i never did so when you went to race a caraway and ran forth did you get out of the car going all right last boxes checked did you no no i didn't i didn't what made you decide that i'm done not going to do another one

what's stopping you from answering the phone one day and going Yeah, I'll drive it. How do you make it official? Is it ever official? Oh, well, you did. You made an official. I know it. I know it.

I always feel like I always wanted to run some more. But you know, I love race with Brad and Mike and all that. Well, Mike, they own a truck and company up there. And Mike's got a sprint car now. And he wants to, he should do that. He should run the dirt. I mean, he's run a truck. his whole life. And I've had him race my LLLL8 model. And it was actually funny. It was probably

no different than I was. He was scared to death of the thing. And I go, really? You run there's super. It should be the other way around. And he ran good. He ran second at it. And he did like it. But so I'm to I felt, and I told him this. I says, look, I probably need to quit doing this. I'm getting too old to go that fast anyways. And but Mike needs to do what he wants to do. Yeah. Because he's working on a sprint car. He's working on his super. He's working on his super. working on my super and then working during a day two and it's it's 11 hours and going across a border for me to go up and help and I felt that I like to work on them all the time and I and I wasn't getting that yeah so just driving it doesn't doesn't necessarily fill that void I like working on them

and then driving them you know try to improve them trying to win every week and things like nature and I think that a little bit of that element was missing so that's why I chose that so you're you've been down here all this time building, you know, building race cars and going up there and racing a little bit. You also have mentored some drivers over, you know, the course of that time, one of them being Carson Hosson. You know, how enjoyable, I suppose, was it to help him and what type of reward is that for you personally? Oh, it's great. I mean, all the people I've helped. And, you know, I'd help Danick out with, with your there for a short bit.

But somebody that's new and starting their, like Carson's dad, Scott, he had purchased race cars from me. But he had other drivers driving him. And one day he had said, he goes, hey, when my kid gets a little older, would you help him out? And I says, well, who's your kid? And he points over there. And I go, he's this tall. He's like 10. Yeah.

And I thought, okay, well, it's going to be a couple years. I knew he was doing a quarter budget stuff. And I really thought that that would just be forgotten type scenario. And then I think when he was 11, his dad, his dad called and they said, he wanted to buy my house car. And I'm not selling you my house car. Why do you want my house car? Don't make you sense. I'll build you a new car.

And he goes, no, I want to put the kid in it. Like what kid? You know, because I'm thinking of their driver. I know there are other drivers. And then he was talking to his. And I says, well, let's take us a different approach. Let's bring him down here. Let's put a, do a seat or form a seat up and move the pedals and we went to hit create test.

And I have tested there a couple, two, three times. And he went out. And I know the first time I took the out car there, you get around there pretty fast. I mean, I was kind of surprised. So I can look at a track and tell you, but and I thought, well, I can get into a little 14s easy enough. I think I can get into 13s. Well, Kevin, he goes, right in a way. I go, you ain't seen these cars run.

And this is a late model, not to, I did. I went 40 lap tires and I run 1430s. And then I, I think I get down to 14.0s. And Carson got in it. And he's running 1450s, 1460s, like to start with. And by the end of it. two-day test. He's, he's in 1430s. And I, you know, and I expect to be a couple tens faster in him, but he was gaining that pretty fast. And so then it was like, okay, well,

then Scott of Stad was like, well, we wanted him to race at Berlin. And I go, I go, you sure you want to do Berlin? I said, Berlin's fast. It's tricky. And he goes, nope, that's what we want to do. So I had them test at Hickory a couple of times and I told him when I got up there and I says, listen, this place is way faster than you think it is. And he did, he went out there and he ran a couple laps. And then I started helping him more. And he got he got faster and faster. And he did get out of the car. He seemed shaking a little bit. This place is fast. It's way faster in Hickory. And and and but he would like, we ran a year and I meant pretty much running in top five almost the whole year. The second year, I think we struggled a little bit. Same car. And

And then they were kind of wanting to go to the template cars. I didn't build the temple cars. I don't care for him that much. And so I hooked him up with the Versailles and him. And he did run for them. But he ran through that one spot where he was struggling. But I think it was his growth. I mean, because he wasn't that tall then.

And all of a sudden he was like, wow. It goes way up there. And he did struggle through that. And it took a minute to figure that out. You know, I don't think he thought he was. But I thought physically he wasn't quite ready. Or that growth thing was just making. making them not ready, I think. And then they worked it out, you know, talked to his dad,

dad put him in a program, had him checked. And then obviously he's doing pretty good. It's doing great. You, you know, you've decided to, you know, to hang it up. So you still live down here. You know, what do you find, what do you find time to, you know, that you enjoy? What's some of the things that you spend your time doing now that, you know, racing's probably still woven into the DNA of your afternoon or your week, but less and less, especially if you're never, you know, if you're done driving. So, you know, it is. Carson's moved on to the Cup series. Like, what's, what's, what's the projects, you know? I've got, I've had calls about mentoring people, but I don't. If it, if it's not like I

haven't driven that type of car, like, I think if I was going to help somebody like with your cars, not understanding the car that whole little bit, I think it's very hard to help. Now, I can do the standard, you know, well, this, that. But I'm more about trying to get you to go faster. I'm more about chassis and stuff like that. And I don't think that opportunity is going to be available down here just because the cars are very different. So I know, but I do still do some fabrication work. There's a couple of buddies. Of course, they own businesses with plumbing stuff, and I build their fun stuff that they do with their racks and things that nature or just weird stuff. I got my dad's old Corvette.

I think he bought that. It's a 1965 Corvette he bought, and I think it was like 10, 12 years old. So I'm in a process of redoing that. Yeah. So I'm keeping busy, but I'm not stuck. I can't,

I can go do what I want. If I want to take off, if I want to go somewhere, we just take off. Yeah. Who's we? Minicoe. Yeah.

Wife. So, yeah, we just, other than that, I'm more of a homebody. Yeah. I don't mind. I, you know, we've got like 19 acres.

I'm 900 feet off the road, nobody sees us. It's awesome. You know, you got one neighbor back there that's just horses run free so they come over visit. Stuff like that. But other than that, I mean, I love fabrication work, but I don't want it to be 10 hours a day. Sure. Yeah. I feel like I've, I've done enough work throughout my life that I'll just take these small projects that may take a day or two. Yeah. And just find something to do after that. Yeah. You ever see yourself, like, you know, you ever see yourself working on the short track scene in this environment down here? I think it would be interesting.

I think maybe would have to see what that would look like type type thing. I mean, I was involved in Berlin when Berlin had that. There was like four or five those limited partnerships that were involved in it. And I was on competition rules, rules thing. but we don't have that many rules. Yeah. You know, so, and I did that for a little bit, but I don't, I don't want to feel like I need to go to the racetrack every week. Yeah.

And I think that's, I think like one of the guys that says wanted a mentor guy, then he sent me a schedule. And I go, God, that schedule is five times more than I was doing racing with the super. And I was like, well, I don't want to do that. Sure. But if I could help somebody, I would. Yeah. I just don't know at what level and how far. I feel like once you get to a certain point.

part. They should be able to handle that. Carson has done that. You know, we get to that part. And it's okay, you got to adjust what's going on. Now, just keep going after it. Yeah, for sure. And because I did help him at a truck race down at Phoenix. Really? Yeah. And, and, well, it's been a few years ago. Yeah. And so I did do that. I did do that stuff. And I enjoy that. You talked about the big concussion you had no nine, I suppose, was it? Is that the only time? I'm sure you've been banged around and rung your bell multiple times. We all go through those. Yeah, it was by far the worst. I shouldn't have lived through that for one.

Really? I can't remember the guy's name that. I think he was with GM and he was one of the safety guys. And he had passed away, not long. I can't. Probably about eight, nine years ago, whatever. Maybe not been that long ago. Anyways, I did have a computer in a car. And I just, like the aim system for the gauges, stuff like that. And NASCAR came and looked at the car. after this wreck. And they took the computer and he had said that he's never seen a spike straight up. Well, the computer only went to 100 Gs, but it was straight up.

He goes, it's always on an angle. He says, this thing was straight up. He goes, I can't guess. I can't even guess what that would have been after they came and looked at the car and everything. I mean, it was tore up. It was pretty bad. But I had broke a lot of stuff. I mean, I was in ICU for four days.

I meant there, I don't think it was one of those touching gold things. But, I mean, it was my lung, my kidneys and all that were in pretty bad shape. Same with the, I guess, knock on my head. I was bleeding out of my ear and all that fun stuff. Shit. But I have my moments where I can't remember what happened yesterday. And then, you know, I got to figure out. I don't know if there's a way around that.

No. I mean, I'll say this. My doctor told me he's like, you know, I started, you know, going through the process of the symptoms and went to see my doctor in Pittsburgh. And from the moment that I realized that I wasn't all right, I started analyzing myself daily. And I recognized or, you know, when I would forget where I put something or forget why I walked across the room to the refrigerator, I would, I recognize that and I would highlight that in my mind as a moment. And I went to him, you know, I'm going to him through this process and telling him everything.

I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. And I'm, man, you know, the other day I did this. The other day this happened, the other day I turned my head and I felt this. And I forgot this and forgot that. And he's like, he's like, you can't put every single thing that happens in the concussion bin. Just because you forgot where your keys were. doesn't mean that's a concussion-related thing. Some things are just going to happen.

People forget names and birthdays and things they said they were going to do all the time. Yeah. And I needed to stop analyzing every day and sort of tracking every day is this sort of, you know, trying to understand the metrics of wherever, or if I'm improving.

And so I kind of, you know, I am forgetful. Is that related to my concussions? Maybe not entirely. I laughed the other day. I told somebody I said, I can't tell you, I can't tell you they were asking me about something that we did the day before. And I go, you know, I don't really remember what that was.

I'll tell you in about a year. I was like, I can remember that happened a year ago or two years ago, but I can't remember things that happened in the last week. But those things I'll remember in a year, you know, just laughing. Not that that's really true. But I feel like that, and again, you know, I'm no expert, but as you and I get older, we are less likely to, you know, when we're younger, our mind is constantly recording every day.

Everything we do, we think, every conversation we have, every moment, every song we hear. Our minds are just a processor that's just recording and downloading all this information and storing it away. And as we get older, we do that less, just out of habit. We're less, we're less, we're less likely. to be memorizing and downloading and recording and processing and storing away every single thing we do all day long because we realize that that's not that important. Oh, that's true. And so if you said, man, remember what you said yesterday?

And I don't. I don't get all that bit of shape about it because I didn't, in the moment when I did it, I didn't file it away is something very important because we get, we've tuned our, to only file away the things that are critical. And, you know, I don't know. I think that, now, there are some things that are real, you know. There are some symptoms and issues that are real. And I'll tell you this.

I am not the same version. I'm not, you know, I kind of call myself, this is 2.0. There was the first, there was that one version before the wreck and now there was this version. I think 100%. Right. And that I had to, that I just had to come to terms with, right? That not everything was going to, I wasn't going to be as sharp or as elite or as I wanted to be. And another thing I'll tell you too, and I think you can appreciate this.

It's like when we're racing a car every single week, all of those senses are so perfectly finely tuned. They are. And when you get out of that rotation, and you no longer do it day in and day out, you never, you can't, you know, when you do go back and get behind the car, you see that, you see that five or three or four percent that's not there.

Yeah. That the other guys have, that they're the guys that are doing it every single week. You don't have it. You don't. And you're not going to. And the one thing I don't have a problem is, is I should be in a car.

Yeah. And I think it's, I think you got to concentrate so hard. Yeah. that forces you. It forces you to just stay on track, right? I meant sometimes under caution you find yourself like, yeah, get back. I'd rather go back green now.

Yeah. And so I did have that problem in a car. And I don't have the problem if I trip. I remember reflexes are still pretty good. And so I don't know what area that it is, but I'll get a horrendous headache. and that I never used to have before ever. I mean, it's probably just started in the last three, four years. You would get that, but only for a short minute,

but God, it feels like your head's getting cut off, you know. And then it kind of goes away. And it, I've had, I don't know what times you walk across shop to get something. Not know what you went over there for. Yeah. And then you get back. And then you go, oh, crap, what the hell? You know, what was I even looking for?

And then I have to think of what I was doing. Because I may have two or three different things going on. Yeah. And, you know, from building cars and all the machining, your heads always rotate. And because I still always have this great ideas for some of the race car to do. But I don't want to put the energy into it now. I think the last outlaw car I had made that thing. It was just wicked fast.

And there's some things that I think they do to make it even better. I don't want to go through the energy to do it. Yeah. You know, it's just, and I just feel weird about, okay. let's get somebody to do it for you. But it never works that way. No. You know, not not necessarily really in tuned to what's going on.

But I do, I do enjoy those aspects of things of the racing. And I think that's what keeps me playing and keeps me fabricating and things that nature. Because I do, I do like to do that. Yeah. Well, I, you know, in terms of the, you know, the memory and head, you know, I feel like that my doctor, you know, I, I had this really great vision most of my career. And like 2010, I always had really good vision. And then I had the concussions and stuff.

And when he sent me to an eye doctor, I'm like, well, my eyes are great. You know, I don't, why don't I got to see this eye doctor during this whole process? But the guy started putting glasses on me. And I picked my mom's glasses up one day. and I was like, wow, I didn't even know my vision was steering off in the wrong direction, but it is. And so now I wear glasses all the time. And he's like, you know, you were probably, I was like, I was so disappointed that, man, this wreck and this injury has messed up my vision. I really was going to have great vision all my life.

I loved being able to read and see everything. And now I got to wear glasses and without glasses, I'm literally useless, right? If I sit on the couch with Amy and I don't have my glasses on, she's like, check us out on my phone. I'm like, I can't but my doctor's like, you were going to get this way. He's like, this accelerated it a little bit,

but you were going to do this. And so it's kind of similar with the memory and like, isn't my memory as sharp as I think it should be? No. But it was probably, you know, this is likely,

you know, an aging process anyways. Maybe it's a little more profound. But I do that too. I'll, I'll, I'll walk across the shop and I'm working at the shop

and walking across there for a particular bid or something like that and a tool or whatever and get over there and go what the hell was I what did I need um sometimes it comes back in five minutes sometimes it's yeah yeah that's uh yeah and you know that's probably the best way to look at it it's usually nothing bothers me I don't really dwell on it but it was like this there's certain things that yeah that are just a headache thing would be something yeah but I'm in a place personally where I no longer recognize

moments as going oh, that's a concussion related thing. I'm thankful for that. My doctor told me, he's like, quit analyzing yourself, quit putting everything in this concussion bin thinking that you're

this damaged goods and everything that happens that you don't do perfectly goes in this concussion box. And I'm like, all right, I'll stop. And finally, you know, I go through days

where I don't even think about it. and I don't, I'm not like reminded that, oh, yep, that that's something I went through and now I'm, so, but there are some moments. But if I was having some pain, you know, that would drive me right back to the doctor. Like I would probably say, hey, you know, I've got, I'm feeling physical pain and I just want an MRI or something to get in there and look around. Yeah, and it seems odd. It's so long. I meant it. This was, that records in 09. I know. And then why all of a sudden is it doing that? I agree.

But that happens. You know, I, when I, not the same thing, but my last real issue with concussions happened in 2016. And the wreck that I had that triggered it was two months before. Like I had wrecked. I knew when the wreck happened that I'd gotten my bell rung. But I was like, I'll be good in a couple days. I was.

Went on and raced for two months with no issue, perfectly fine. and then all of a sudden I started realizing my vision was getting blurry and my eyes felt a ton of pressure behind my eyes and all these things and I'm like oh I must have allergies I don't have allergies never had in my life but this is what it sounds like and I'm just talking to people and they're like oh yeah probably allergies and you know finally we got it all figured out and diagnosed but the issues I always felt like you get you get a concussion or you have a concussion from a moment that you know an impact or a thing that you know that just happened. Somebody hit you upside dead with a bat concussion, right? But sometimes there's these lingering effects that can come out of nowhere from months or even years after an incident, right, as our bodies are always changing and evolving. But yeah, I mean, if you're uncomfortable or having any kind of pain, I would certainly like think, right, let's get in front of this. Could be something completely unrelated to concussions. I, you know, because I knew I had a bad concussion and it and it was but because I was out of the race car so long just from

surgeries and fixing everything that a good distance I didn't feel that I'm gonna head that with vertical there for the first week yeah something like that every time you wanted to get up or something like that but but that went away pretty quick even even after I did get back in racing I didn't I never I couldn't feel that I couldn't feel that yeah that was fine yeah you know, it's probably just old age. It is. I'm trying to claim it on something.

Yeah, you're putting everything in the concussion bin. You're just getting old. I know it, right? Yeah. And like that, that headache could be unrelated entirely to this wreck. Well, no, you have no idea. Yeah, I have no idea. We always, we're quick to make assumptions.

And me and you were of mechanical minds that we want to connect things and make things make sense, right? I know it. That's a bad habit. Yeah, it is. Well, look, let's see, 62 years old. I know that she may not love this, but I think you got one more, you got a couple laps left in the tank. Oh, absolutely.

You're in great health. You look awesome. I'm a good health, I think. You must pay you attention and for the most part try to do a good job. It got to the point that, And everybody flexuates on all their stuff, right? And it was, you know the cup cars? Yeah, they're hot.

They're, every race car's hot. Open wheel car, not so much. They're still warm and they're still hot. But the physical aspect to drive one of those cars, I've never experienced that before. It just, I mean, I can't even, we run, I run Toledo. And I think we ran a truck race and they come over there.

is a 40 lap race. It goes green. It covers a little loose. I started like 12th or so. And with those cars, somebody was running a little heavy on your fuel. With methanol, it just burned your eyes,

you know? And all of a sudden, I was like, I couldn't breathe because those cars, you can't breathe in corners. So you're constantly trying to adjust your breathing. Because of the loads? Just because of the,

oh my gosh. And so I was like, I'm really pull off track. Yeah. That's only a 40 lap race. And I'm like, man, and I looked up at the board, and I go, it was a lap 32. I go, well, I can run eight more laps and all breathing. And, of course, I got to the end and jammed the belts off.

And I think that seat and that cardient quite fit, quite perfect. But anyways, I'm looking at the board and it's got 74 up there. And I don't make any sense for third or something like that. And the three of us have to stop on a start and finish line. So I stopped up there. Brad comes up there all happy as, man, if we had a call, And I go, dude, he had no idea. I almost pull off the track at lap 3.2.

And I was like, man, I'm either just so out of shape. But then what Kyle Bush had to have, the rowdy 250, well, I was racing that on Wednesday. I was scared to death going into this race. I thought, geez, I just barely made it through this 40 lap race with the super. And I got there and ran that. And I think I finished third in it. And I was like, God, I could run five of these.

So just a 50 lap race, one of those things are insane. Yeah. They're just, you get, if the car's not quite white, it'll absolutely wear you out. I bet. And so you kind of try to stay ahead of that. Yeah, for sure. But they're fun. Well, man, let's stay in touch, man.

I didn't know you're still down this way. And we got a lot of great things going on in the cars tour and around racing in general. And I love to have you out to see what we're. I'm at least now I'm going to go do some of these races. Yeah. Come visit. at us and just kind of see what we're doing. I'd love to do it.

Yeah, dude, it's fun and it's close. All our races were then, you know, most of them were within three hours of drive. I like working with Tony Erie. Yes. With Danica and stuff like that. I think I did some stuff with some breaks with them and, of course, seeing them at the assurats. So, yeah, I mean, I'm going to keep obvious, say, on your schedule.

I see your racing somewhere. We'll probably sneak over and see how it's going on. Yeah, come and check us out. All right, buddy. Thank you very much. a lot of fun. Johnny Benson, Jr. on a Dill Jr. Download. All right, Johnny Benson.

That's a fun conversation. I love, obviously, that he had this career in NASCAR, and then he went back and ran a lot of short track races since then in the last, you know, decade, decade or so. And even, like, right now, like, he's very, matter of fact. I don't know, man. I wonder if way down in there, there's, there's, if he's, if he's like hiding his true, like emotion around things,

but like he didn't, he doesn't seem too upset or bothered by things that didn't go his way on the cup side or the NASCAR side of things. And he, you know, he's just like, yeah, I'll just go back to do this. I'll just go back and do this. I'll just go do this. I'm just, I'm just going to go do this. Yeah. I don't know.

Kind of envious of his. lack of emotion in terms of the frustrations or the disappointments and every one of us has faced at some point in time in our careers

but he it's a champion man Bush Series champion 95 2008 truck series champion 1993 ASA national champion and a lot of Hall of Fames he has he's got

he's had a very robust career man I think a lot of people really appreciate him. I enjoyed that conversation, man. I'm surprised we hadn't had him in here sooner, but that was a good one. So we're grateful for Johnny coming through the Arby Studio today.

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