The Dale Jr. Download - Lessons Learned From Dale Sr: Kevin “Two Beer” Pennell (Part 2)

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

When Dale Earnhardt Jr. had his longtime friend and crew member Kevin “Two Beers” Pennell on the Download last time, their conversation was so engrossing that he had to come back for more. They pick up where they left off, in Dale Jr.’s rookie season in the famed Bud 8 car. They recall some choice encounters with Dale Sr., including a wreck at Bristol and their Cup debut at Martinsville, where Dale Jr. couldn’t get out of the way quickly enough. Dale and Kevin relive their thrilling victory in the 2000 All-Star race, where some key decision-making by Tony Eury Jr. helped put them in contention. The 2001 Daytona 500 is also discussed, with both men sharing their respective experiences of the post-race events after Dale Sr.’s tragic accident. Dale and Kevin talk about some “ingenuity” and “innovation” that was taking place in the shop and on pit road to help close the gap on the more established Cup teams. They rehash the highs and lows of the 2001 season and their hot streak at Daytona and Talladega, which led up to the winning of the 2004 Daytona 500. Dale asks Kevin for his perspective on the team switch at Dale Earnhardt Inc., which stemmed from a falling out with Eury Jr. They also chat about Dale and Eury Jr. leaving for Hendrick Motorsports, and Kevin’s decision to stay loyal to DEI. The interview goes on to cover the whirlwind years of DEI, which saw it get absorbed by Ginn Racing, the acquisition by Tony Stewart, and the inception of Stewart Haas Racing and its eventual closure at the end of the 2024 season. And for more content check out our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMediaReal fans wear Dirty Mo. Hit the link and join the crew.👇shop.dirtymomedia.com/FanDuel: Must be 21+ and present in select states (for Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino) or 18+ and present in D.C. First online real money wager only. $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable bonus bets which expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit GamblingHelpLineMA.org or call [phone] for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8HOPE-NY or text HOPENY in New York. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I got burnt up in that corvette. Like, for the first two weeks, man, I couldn't walk. Like, I had to lay down. And I'm still kind of needing a little bit of help with my seatbelts and stuff. And you come over there. Oh, yeah. I asked you to tighten it up. Yes.

Tighten up the left belt. And you're yanking on that damn thing and something slipped. And you punched me right on the top of the thigh. That was the most painful. There was a GD moment. Yeah. I can't believe you just hit me there. And I'm like, I didn't mean to, you know.

The following is a production of Dirty Mode Media. All right, so it's time for another Dale Jr. Download here, the guest segment, and we've got Kevin Pinell coming here for part two of the interview that we're doing with him. We had him on earlier. Kevin's been a big part of my career from the Xfinity Days all the way through the bud years and beyond, and we only got to part of that in the first episode. So we brought him in, and we're going to finish it up. There's a lot here to talk about all the bud days.

and then the shift away from DEI and Stuart Haas Racing and so forth. So let's get Kevin in here and get started. Two beer, Kevin Pinell back on the Dale Jr. Downlow. We had such a good time and ran out of time, honestly. I don't even remember where we left off. Where did we end? Had we gotten into the Bud Days yet? I thought we just got into the rookie part of the Bud Days.

The rookie part. Well, let's just start right there. So, Kevin, you were the Jackman on the A.C. Delcoe. crew going into the Cup series and you, you know, you kind of lived the, you know, lived the whole thing, all the bud days from a pretty cool vantage point. Right. Great friends with Tony Senior, Tony Jr., family related. Tony Jr. married your sister, so you and Tony Jr. as tight as could be.

And so now here we are. moving into the cup series as rookies we built a couple cars and ran a few races in 99 um we talked about going to japan and racing there right uh and having fun um and now we're going to go run in the in the cup series uh what do you remember i suppose about um that you know going into that you know where you was that a pinch me moment for you i guess to think man I can't believe, you know, just a few years ago, I wasn't even on a race team. I wasn't even here I am six, eight years later. I'm in the Cubs series.

Yeah, seven days a week, you know, a lot of work. Yeah. Y'all works some damn crazy hours. Oh, great. You know, and that's one thing you think about now compared to then. I mean, back then, you know what I mean, seven days a week, no days off until things were done. And that being said, minimum more staff, too, people. You know, and resources were there, but the resources, you know what I mean?

Technology-wise, I would say, you know, we thought we were good, but what we were seeing other people, you know what I mean? Like what? Just, you know, cars that they were building, you know, or, you know, I mean, we were running against, you know, we're way, I ain't saying way better, but better, you know, and you had to get to that level. You'd come home, you cut bodies off, you know, you'd put a bigger fender on or narrow right front fender or changed the whole body and, you know, that right there, you know, production,

you know, put you behind. Yeah. So do you remember what Dad was like? We're going to go out there and race against him? Do you remember Bristol when he wrecked, uh, he wrecked Elliott Sadler in front of us? Yeah. And, um, and we got knocked out. We got, well, we got knocked out.

I believe we were trying to fix it and we were welding truck arm mounts on underneath the car. And I'll never forget when your dad found out that Tony Sr. Whether I said a truck arm mounts underneath that thing to put you back out there to go run, he flipped his lid. He was like, you got to be kidding me. You put a set of truck arm mounts on that car at the racetrack. And we're like, yeah, whatever it takes to get back out there, you know. We got back out there. So dad comes up right before the race and walks up to me, and he's starting behind Elliot Sallor.

And he walks up to Elliot and me, me and Ellie's talking. He goes, you two boys just kind of take it easy. It's a tough race, blah, blah, blah, blah. Y'all be good. You'll get a good finish. Lap one. He run in the back of Sadler and turned him in front of me and I wrecked. And I was madder in hell.

You sent me back out on the racetrack. And Dad's lapping me and I tore the damn right side of his car. You remember that? Yep. Yep. And Richard come down and said something. Richard Tilders. Yep.

He was pretty much like parked that damn thing. Yeah. Kind of like Martinsville. golly, that was a tough one. You know, same concept. We hit everything. Hit everything. Even hit the record on the way in.

Yeah. Trying to get behind the wall to fix the sway wall. Yeah, to fix the sway. That's what it's great. I think it was my first cup race at Martinsville. We didn't race there in Xfinity Series, so I hadn't been there in years. And it was a little, it was a battle. And it'll chew you up.

But we ran into all kinds of things. but one thing I remember, Michael Watcher, tells this story. So we're at Martinsville, and we're racing along, and we got behind, we got lapped. And I'm lining up on the inside,

on a restart. I got me some new tires, and we fired off, and I drove away about a straightaway in front of the leaders. And I'm driving as fucking hard

as I can drive that thing. And then the rest of the race plays out. We wreck and tear all kinds of shit up, drug to sway bar on off, and just all kinds of problems. And of my doing. and by the end of the race

I ain't got no fenders and I'm running back there in the back trying to stay out of the way and I go down in the corner underneath Dave Blaney or on his outside and somehow jumped his right rear tire and it launched me into the outside wall

bit the steering wheel over the steering column hit the wall harder and shit and dad comes over the radio and says thanks about time for him to park that thing and Richard said yeah I don't believe you got to worry about that it's pretty much done this time

and that was a hell to hit I still have that steering wheel from that race. But we get in the helicopter to go home. And dad's, I don't know where he finished, but he's looking at me, he's like, damn, boy, what the hell? You know, what was your damn problem today?

And I was like, you didn't see me yard to leaders on that one little restart? I was like, I did pretty good then. But, you know, even that, you know, to define a moment out of that whole deal, even as bad as we ran there, you know, Pops is like, we're not going to ever do that again. Yeah.

Went back up tested for two days and put some laps on that racetrack. Yeah. Between, you know, I mean, and a lot of major changes. And I would say that was to turn a moment. You know what I mean? And how we went back and performed after that. We always ran good at Martin Zee after that. Yeah.

Yeah. One of the things that we learned was taken, and this was in your department, I believe, we took the spring bucket perch off the left rear trailing arm and we put a tungsten piece there. We put a tungsten lower block. Tungsten lower block. All right. So unsprung weight.

And what else? And we rev chip. We set the rev chip to come in at all times. Keep you from driving into it. And we lowered the cross member, you know what I mean? So it would hit at a certain point. So I couldn't overdrive. Exactly.

Because it was about burying it, bearing it, bearing it, bearing it. You know, we had to back you, backy, back you up. Yeah. Oh, damn. Yeah. Well, we got her dialed in. I always love that damn tungsten lowering block, keeping drive in the car.

And we used it in Hendrick. When I went to Hendrick to run some, I was like, man, I got to have that. That was drive. But it's illegal as hell. But what are some of the other things that we did to our cars to trick them up every now and then? I know we rarely got too far outside the rule. Yeah.

How was Tony Jr. and Tony Sr. in terms of following the guidelines? Straight to the, you know, I mean, we would build things as max as you can build them. Yeah. You know, and. But, I mean, there's always these kind of things that weren't necessarily rules. Like, I remember Tony Jr. talking about stacking the decals on the roof in front of the, you know, in front of the camera on the, at the plate races. We always had a bud, we always had a camera, right? So on any kind of vantage point, there was going to be bud decals.

And they're like, well, shit, instead of one little decal, let's put, you know, four thick ones. Right. And stack them. And it'll knock the wind over that. We even had the wedge that we put the decal on at one time in front of the camera. I don't remember which speedway race it was, but I remember the wedge that mounted that, and strictly gave it to the PR guy to put it on because we couldn't put it on. You couldn't put it on. No, we just stick this on when it gets on pit road and just stick it on.

But, I mean, that stuff that DEI was really frowned upon, you know what I mean? And it was. But working to that edge, that gray area was always where, you know what I mean, we would put things. Yeah. And, you know, if there was a rule and it set it in the rule book, you know what I mean? No, we didn't touch it. But if we had to create a rule, we went that route, you know what I mean? Yeah.

What are some of your memories from that? rookie of the year season. I would say, you know what I mean? The wins, you know, they're always memories, but even the, you know, the hard work is the biggest thing. Do you remember going and testing for the All-Star race? So we, the way I remember it, we're out there testing. We'd been there for the majority of the, you know, later afternoon.

It was a test that went from like 4 o'clock to 9 or something like that. And we're out there running, and we're okay. we're top 10 for sure, maybe top five on the board. Feeling pretty good. And we're in this all-star, you know, we're sitting there like, damn, we're just thrilled to be in it. Because we weren't going to be in it, and then we won a couple races right out of the gate.

We're like, shit, man. This is awesome. So it's all-star practice. There's about 20 cars, and we're out there running and running, and I remember Dale Jarrett being really fast for some reason. And then right at the end of the night, Tony Jr. is like, I want you to go out there and just run 10 laps.

I was like, okay. And I went out there and ran 10 laps and it was freaking way faster. And I was like, all right, I think we just simulated the final break, you know, the final segment, 10 laps segment. That was when the All-Star race was like 75 laps, 50 laps, 10. And we were really fast. And what Tony Jr. had done was pulled all the fuel out of it. And it only had enough fuel for the most part to be able to run those 10 laps.

and that added so much grip in the car. We were able to, you know, really kind of, if it would turn, it was going to get tight because of the nose weight, but if it would turn, it was going to be great, and it was badass, so locked down. And, you know, that was kind of the moment where I thought, you know, damn, we might have for something for them. We went out there in the first segment, full tank of fuel,

and we're sitting there running third behind, I think, Bill Elliott and Rusty Wallace, I think. And I slapped the wall off turn four. And I was like, I've ruined it because it hit pretty hard. But it actually started driving better after that. I think I knocked a rear and pals them back on the right side and gave some skew accidentally.

We're sitting there in the final segment. They've been a bunch of damn crashing and Fields kind of weeded out. We ran like one or two laps in the call should come out in that final 10-lap segment. And the radio conversation was Tony Senior, I think, said, well what you want to do and I said I don't think I can win it like this we were four 30 I can't remember where we're running but I was like I can't win

right we're not going to win we're not fast enough well come on down here we put some tires on what the hell and so we came down and put tires on and I mean that was the damn difference maker just a couple laps more better tire right and we drove through the field and ended up passing Dale Jarrett and went in the race

what do you remember from that number from that But in the same sense, one thing I would say is like went over there and tested Charlotte, you know, for the 600, the All-Star Race and all that. And I'll never forget, you know what I mean? Richie kept asking, you know what I mean, how you feel about the motor, how you feel about this, how you feel about that. And you're like, oh, it feels good, feels good. I mean, because coming from what we had in the Bush or the X-Finity series, you know. It felt amazing. Yeah, and you were like, this feels amazing.

He just just wait until you come back. And when you come back over there. Oh, my God. And you were like, yeah, your comment was, he was like, well, how is this when Fair Compared to what? He says, you were like, I feel like I'm sitting in the back of a school bus, driving it from the back seat of the school bus, and I'm just way out here in front of me. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. They put a damn ticking time bomb in that thing for qualifying for the 600, I think, or it might have been for the All-Star race. But I remember, I could not believe how much faster that motor. went down the back straightaway versus the race engine. Right. It was insane, the difference.

You would think, oh, man, it's just going to be a couple horsepower, just a little bit better, you won't really notice it. That was what my mind was telling me. Right. We didn't change motors in the Bush series. Nope. So I had never run no, I never had nobody bolt to qualify an engine in the car. And I ran that thing down the back straight away the first time, and I was like, holy shit.

I must be going 10 mile an hour faster. right into three than I was with the race engine and um yeah it felt like the car was way out in front me and I was like way behind mentally um because in my mind you know you I don't know you know you you're out on the racetrack and you get in your you get in a rhythm with the car and you know where it's supposed to be and where it is at all times and that that thing was trying to get out and under me right and um it's pretty amazing and we had some badass motors that's what I was getting rid of say, I mean, if you think about the Friday qualifiers, you know, when we'd pull them out, put race engines in it, but just listening to them when they fire up when they're cold.

Yeah. Just rattling and trying to tighten up and stuff, it was just amazing, you know, that they survived. Yeah. Watching them smoke out of pipes and stuff like that. It was like, oh, my God. I know it. Yeah, we had some badass engines. That was one of the things, I think, that we did, you know, that helped the, have success

so quickly was our engine shop was really, really good. you know when we won at Texas Richmond past dad to take the lead at Richmond which is a badass um dad would come into Victor Lane if he did even in the Bush days he'd come in there they had happy hours so he was quick you know he'd come in hey good job find you're right home I always rode with him on his king error but in you know when we'd win he's like I'm leaving yeah figure it out figure your wrong right home and but that night he stayed in victory lane with us at the All-Star race. Yeah.

Yeah. That was pretty cool. That was, like I say, you know, thinking about them days and him, you know, how you could just see the grin and the glow in him. You know what I mean, about how proud he was of just everybody in general, you know, and even you. He was just like, you know, he's seen, you know, everybody accomplished this goal. Yeah. And this big of a race right here in our backyard. And he was just ecstatic.

Yeah. You know? Do you remember, you know, we go to Daytona in 2001, and we're out there racing all day long, and our first Daytona the year before, I thought went really good. I hadn't done well on the plate races. I'd wrecked just about every time we'd run the Bush car at Talladega and Daytona, and so I wasn't feeling a ton of confidence. I think I'd finally, in that final Talladega in 99, got a sixth place finish.

And that was the first time I didn't wreck the car at a speedway, a super speedway. Yeah, but that was the one I was going to remind you about that Talladega race. You got ran down on the apron. Yeah. Oh, no, that was in the bad. Yeah. I'm talking about in the Bush series. Well, I'm talking about the Cup series part.

You know what I mean? That one. And I'll never forget, me and you, I just got off work, went over there and we were going to grow, grab some food in town. And it was a Saturday, it had to be a Saturday or something because we worked half a day. And we were riding out and your dad was riding in. And he pulled up the side of you. Where are y'all going? You know what I mean?

We were going to grab some lunch or something in town. And he said something about, you know, talking about, you should be able to working right now. Y'all should be able to working at the shop. And he got to talking to us a little bit. And the next thing you know that the conversation got on that race of you letting Skinner run you down on an apron, which cost you the race. And it just stuck, that, that part, that conversation stuck with me for years. Really?

Yeah, just because him like coaching you or pointing at you, like, you know, you had an opportunity to win the race, but you let someone dictate it. You shouldn't have, but you allow me to win the race because of that. And don't never let that happen again. Pretty much was the conversation point. Yeah. And that was it. Yeah. And you know what I mean?

We drove on and he drove on. And it was like, that's always stuck with me for years is that little conversation. Just, you know, it's crazy. But we, you know, we went to Daytona in 2000 as rookies and we did good in our qualifier. I remember getting out and doing the interview at the 76 pumps and just being like, holy you know, we freaking finish top five. And then in the race, you know, we run around and got beat around and pushed around, but we ended up getting across the finish line.

Dad was madder in hell at the end of that race. that was the one where he said, I think Bill France would be returning over in his grave because of this arrow package that we've got. He hated it or something with the plate. He ran like, his car pushed all day. I remember one point in the Daytona 500 in 2000. Dale Jarrett was flying.

Somehow or another, he lost a lot of track position. He was behind me. And we're coming down the back straight away. And I see him coming. I pulled down in front of his ass, and he hit me so damn hard. It was kind of like, don't ever pull out in front of me again. I'm going to the front.

Right. And I'm not, you know, keep your slug-ass, slow car where it is, get out of my way. We ran that race that we got our car better. We got our bodies better. We went to Talladega. Should have won that race. I'm sitting there pushing. I'm, you know, we got Bobby Labani, me, Skinner, we're all kind of right there together.

I was leading a little bit. Skinner got to lead. Bobby Lobney got to lead. And we're all kind of right there. And then I'm sitting behind Skinner, and I'm sitting behind Skinner, thinking I'm just kind of he's blocking, he's doing a really, really good job of not giving me a chance to get

underneath him. I'm trying to wait on him to catch him sleeping and give me a little spot underneath and there wasn't a below the line rule yet. Right. You know, but I mean they would block you all the way to the grass down the back straight away. And so we're sitting there, sitting there running and running, and

here comes, I see dad on the outside. He's like eight rows back, six rows back, five rows back and I'm thinking in my head I should have jumped in front of his ass yeah there was a chance i believe i should have i should have pulled up in front of him but you know what he would have kicked i was thinking in my head he would have kicked my ass or probably put me three wide and sent me to the back but he would have been madder and shit if i'd have jumped in front of him so i'm like all right i can't do that and then i got to thinking about how bad he didn't like you know how bad he

kind of i don't want to say how much he didn't like skinner right But he didn't want Skinner to win. And he didn't want Skinner to win. Right. And so I'm sitting there going, shit, I can't, maybe I shouldn't be pushing Skinner. I got to get out from behind Skinner.

I got to get out behind Skinner. So I'm kind of lifting off of Skinner too. And that's even helping Dad, right? Yeah. Finally, Dad gets to a point. I'm like, all right, I'm screwed. I've screwed myself. I should have just push a shit by Skinner.

I should have. And tried to pass him late. I should have kept helping Skinner with a lot of energy, but I wasn't. and it was allowing dad to come on up by there. And, but finally I was like, I'm going for it. As soon as we got through the tribal

where I could go left without wrecking myself, if I touched the apron, I was going to spin out. I got down there, Skinner's like, I ain't coming up. Yeah. I'm staying on the bottom. You screwed. And I didn't have the balls to, like,

door him up the track because I was afraid I was going to create a crash and be the one to blame. But I should have just doored him up the racetrack and got him up the track. I don't know. You're probably wrecked. I think that's what you were told later on.

Yeah. But I had to lift. We're going into turn one. I'm like, I'm on the apron. And I had to lift. I ended up 14th, I think, overall. But yeah, that was a shit show from my end on that one. We get to Daytona for 2001.

And, man, we are a completely different team from 2000. and two of the best cars there between us and Michael. Michael, yeah. You know, we all know how the end of that race played out. I kind of want to know what you remember from your experience. I think I remember you being in the bus with us at one point. Correct. I went over to the hospital with Danny, and then I came back.

What was that hour and a half, two hours, whatever, four hours? I don't even know how long that was. From the moment the race ended. Up until we're in that bus together, what were y'all doing? Well, we went, we, obviously you left off pit road. Yeah. You know, we went through tech, started the process of rolling through tech. And I believe we got to the height sticks.

And, you know, I mean, that's where we were told. Somebody come over there? You don't remember? I don't recall who told Pops. But I do remember, you know, I mean, Pops breaking. You know what I mean? Breaking now. you know and trying to you know i mean in nascar pretty much said just forget it forget it this

it's over you know what i mean and i i've never experienced nothing like this sure you know what i mean i don't think none of us has but in the same sense it was couldn't kind of couldn't grasp it you know what i mean yeah um felt like you live in a movie yeah and it was like you know everything you know it was like i can't explain it hardly now but in the same sense you know i mean i do remember you know i mean I don't even remember really rolling the car out of there. I just remember, you know, we went, me, me and Danny and Tony Jr. and Tony Senior, you know, and a couple of us went to your bus.

And by that time, you know, I mean, you were already back, you know, and then, you know, that was what it was between all of us, you know, there. The only other thing I really, you know, remember about is leaving the racetrack, going to their airport, just so much traffic, so much going on, piling on the airplane and them pretty much shutting the airport down on the terms of letting us taxi down the runway and get out of there. Getting home, and I believe me and you rode back to the house

or I drove you back to your house. And we got, I do remember we got to the right there on Highway 3, right about a mile before the shop. and we were stopped we stopped right there there's state troopers sitting there with a light something stopping traffic

and I was like you know I think you mentioned something about us bad wreck or something going on down here you know I mean you know

your mind was probably way beyond where mine was but in the same sense you know I knew why probably traffic was stopped but there was people walking down the road you know and that's how far they were parked

way back there away from the shop and you were like you know what I mean must be a bad wreck where I rolled the window down and talked to the state trooper about, you know, hey, you know what I mean? We're just heading to his house.

He lives right up here in front of the shop. He looked over it and he knew exactly who you were and we hauled butt out of there or hold, you know, I mean, up there towards the shop to the house. Yeah. And just people. And I think, I don't know if it, if you can remember then or I'd, I remember, but it looked like on the terms of me looking at you, he should like a ton of bricks about all these people. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Just already lined up at the shop. Yeah. You know what I mean? And to me, it was like. mind-blowing, you know, and you still couldn't grasp what was really going on, what we've been through, you know, in the last 12 hours, you know, and, you know, just lost, you know what I mean. Yeah.

Do you remember the first conversation you had with Tony Sr. after that? What was the, what happened when you went to work on Monday? Those Monday meetings were more on the terms of what needs to be done. You know what I mean, getting things accomplished for the week of. But then that deal was, you know, hey, we haven't talked to you yet. You know, this was, you know, what we were going to do next was your decision, you know, which way we head from here. Yeah. And we haven't heard of that yet, which, you know what I mean.

Do you remember me? I want to say it was later on mid-morning maybe. Yeah. Before lunch. What? Yeah, I mean, you were going to race, you know what I mean? Yeah. and we got the word back.

When did y'all see me next? It had to be sometime around a lunchtime or on Monday. On Monday. I don't remember. I don't remember. I remember just very few, very few details around that whole thing. I remember the highlight points of, I ain't said the highlight points, but things that stuck in my mind, you know, I mean, like the plane ride home,

me and you riding home, right after going through tech and everything, and they set us over. I remember them things. But, you know what I mean? In the same sense, you know, the Rockingham week, the week after, it's hard to remember. Yeah. Just because, yeah, them little fine details because there was so much just stacked into one week that we done to, you know, obviously, you know, more than your dad and more than our boss. But in the same sense, it was, you know, there was just a lot of things going on.

Yeah. do you um you know we went to rockingham uh you know i don't know that any of us knew where we were supposed to be but we didn't want to be at home yeah you know what i mean we didn't want to not we didn't want to go sit at home you know we had to race probably didn't want to be at rockingham either we didn't really love rocking right no that's why i was getting ready to we're probably we could have chose other racetracks but um we went to rockingham and we qualified pretty bad got ran into turn three. There's a lot of checking up.

Guys trying to get to the bottom into three, and we got turned into the wall. I just kind of overcorrected after I got turned sideways. But I was so embarrassed that that crash, how similar that crash looked to dads. I was so embarrassed. I mean, it's lap one. I knew everybody was kind of wandering, watching.

And then for that to happen, I was like, golly. it would have really done me some good to run 500 miles or just run half of that or something that's just to get just to be just for it to be off my mind for a little while you know because driving a race car it can get you can't think about nothing else it can really clear your mind and I just that sucked right and I think you know even even when you know we were put out of the race

the race was over it started raining obviously we wouldn't went home, you know, I mean, we were done. We put it in the truck. Just, you know, listening to that race on Monday at the shot working. Damn, I forgot it happened on Monday. Yes. Holy s'clock. So we were sitting there and how'd never, that must have been surreal.

That's another highlight moment, you know what I mean? It's like you're sitting there and, you know, you're supposed to be in this race. Yeah. And it's happening. And it's happening without you. And you're sitting there listening to it on radio. That had to been surreal, you know? Yeah.

And that's just something to highlight. like points of like what's stuck in my mind about that whole deal. Yeah. Do you remember much of the rest of the year? Kind of a, kind of a blur for me. Yeah, a blur a year. I remember just going to all the races and seeing the tributes. Tribute, tribute, tribute, a lot of tributes.

A lot of tributes, but going back to the 4th of July race to me. Oh, yeah. You know, that was a highlight, you know, of... Did you know when y'all were building that car, what you were building? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's where I said, you know what I mean?

From then on, and even for that race, but then on, speedway racing, you know what I mean? There was never no stone overturn. Oh, no. I mean, it was full kill. It didn't matter if the back, you know, if we hit Sonny or, you know, he needed to leave, you know, to get that tractor down there or that car. Yeah, the truck driver.

Yeah. But in the same sense, it was like, we'll get you on the road in ample time to hurry it and get down there. You know what I mean? You may be. You're all tuning on it all the way up to the last second. I've seen it. The back door come back.

or the car come back out just to put the template back on. Just because they got the talking. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it was like, you didn't take enough. And we got it back out to take a little bit more. Yeah.

And that's just the mentality of working with them guys. You know what I mean? And what they instill in you to work, you know what I mean? We had these spoilers. And I know that they would get down there and how. The Honah Jr. walked around with a file in his back pocket, filing on that spoiler all weekend. And every time it went through, you know, it's still passing tech? Yep.

All right. We're going to file a little bit more. And, I mean, just filing just hairs off this thing. Well, I'll tell you that. You're talking about filing that spielder and filing hairs. I don't know if it's three in a row, four in a row, five. I don't know which Talladega it was. but I do remember we went out and practice we were mediocre practice and obviously pops went back up in the holler

you might have been up in there Tony Jr. walked up in there and he came back out of there and I'm like I guess he was coming back out to figure out what needed to be changed on the car or whatever and pops pretty much chewed him on the terms of you know what are you going to do to make this thing faster he's like what's wrong with it right now he goes you know the damn thing went can't keep up What he thinks, you know what I mean? You need to do something. Make some damn changes. Win this damn race, you know what I mean?

So he come back out there, and I'll never forget. Robert Yates, Doug, and all of them were standing off to our side with Todd Perrott and Dale Jarrett and the next garage over. And I knew they were looking at us because they were talking about us. Tony Jr. took the long template and laid it on the rear spulder. And I held one side, and he slid at one side, and he said, put a scribe line there. I scribed it on one side, and it was like a scribed. line three eighths of an inch. I'm sitting there going, are you kidding me? Like that? And he grabbed a pair of

snips and went down the side of that thing and sniffed it right off and laid it on the ground and the Yates boys flipped out. You know what I mean? They were like, you know, their eyes just were like that big, you know, saucers. And roll through tech the next day and they put the rear spolar template on it. He held one side for the guy. Then the guy moved over to the other side and he slid the template. The guy wipe his hand on that side and we rolled on.

And the Yates boys were standing right there watching us. And they just shook. I mean, they... No telling. No tattel telling. That's it.

I remember Tony Jr. showed me this trick. We stand out on pit road and they would put the angle finder on the rear spoiler and they would let you adjust it.

And a lot of guys would obviously try to go through there either borderline or low. And Tony Jr. got it in his head that if I go through there really high, they're going to let me work it down. And so they'll start on the right side and go left. You know, they'll check it in four or five different spots. And he can work it down, work it down, work it down.

The guy puts the gauge on there, and I'm standing there, and I'm, it's, the rules 45 degrees and the damn gauge is 55 degrees. That's like 55, holy shit. They go through the whole process, right? And guy finally gets to the left side and gets the reading he wants. And Tony Jr. has adjusted this spoiler all the way across to get it down legal. And we pass on through. We roll on forward.

They do that at about the 10th car before you go out on the racetrack to run your lap. So you're out on pit road in line doing this final piece. They didn't want you touching a spoiler until you got you out on pit road where you couldn't with it. And I see Tony, we get through there, and I'm like, Tony Jr., the damn thing, was 55 on the way out here? Like, why would you have it so high? Why are you got it way up? What the hell is it at now?

He's like, it's lower in 45. And I was like, how? He's like, well, if I have it at 55, and I put that left side down to 45, and then the next time, the next adjustment takes that to 45, the next adjustment takes that part to 45, that left side's getting lower and lower and lower. Like the whole thing's lower. He said, the only legal part now is the last party checked. The rest of it's probably lower than 45 all the way across.

I was like, holy shit. I mean, the damn, the things that he thought about and the things y'all would, I'm assuming, you know, I mean, if y'all weren't physically turning wrenches, y'all were in an office or standing around a car talking. Yep. And bouncing off, you know, shooting holes in. all these ideas, right, and trying to figure out like, oh, man, well, this is the process of tech.

So if we do it this way, maybe this will open this up or free this up. And, you know, most of, some of the guys are probably doing that too. But most everybody else is thinking, man, the rule is 45. I wonder if I can get 43 through. You know, say, roll up there with 43. And then NASCAR says, I've got to bump it up a little bit. Well, they adjusted up to 45. Right.

And they're probably all going out of, going out on the track with 45 or more. and he's probably qualified with 40 degrees spoiler on the right side where it really matters you know the July race is probably a lot of people's favorite moment in our work together you know and maybe in my own

career personally I don't know where you are on what's the coolest thing that ever happened to you we can get down the we can get to that later but we built a rocket ship what I remember about I know that we I know that we massage that car to the fullest, of course.

But I also know one thing I think that inadvertently helped us that we didn't really realize that was going to be great. And it's something you can't really truly understand in the tunnel. But up until around 2001 we could tie the rear shocks down.

as much as we wanted as aggressive as aggressive as we wanted and what we were doing to get the cars lower was basically raking the frame rails in the car. So we basically would just raise the frame rail up in the car in the back and that meant raising up

the driver, raising up the floor pan, everything in the back of the car is going up up up up up up for like four or six inches. You'd have a car sitting there that had the frame rails raked by four to six inches from front to rear. Right.

and you'd get in that car to squat, squat, squat, squat. And you would see these cars when you'd take them out of the trailer. They'd have side skirts on the back that were like eight or ten inches long. And the front side skirt, the front of the side skirt would be like four inches, like a traditional height. And that's where you kind of see where the rocker and everything was kind of raped. Well, when they made the rules and took away those shocks and kind of gave us the shocks we had to race, a lot of guys went back and built cars without the rate because the drivers

were up in the roof at this point. And they don't get the driver back down, get the floor pan back down, get everything back down. We didn't change our car. We didn't build a new car. We didn't take the rake out of the frame rails. And I have to believe

that car hauled ass all the way around that track, but it really run through the corner all the way off of two. It would haul ass from the center of the corner, off the corner. And it just get this little, they couldn't get a run on it.

Well, those were the time, like you're saying, They issued your shocks, rear springs, because they had a rear spring package and shocks. And when they were given to us, we'd stick a rubber in the right rear, or half a little rubber or something, just enough for it to sit on right there off a two. Yeah. That's right. And I'd never forget watching people's faces when Tony General would tape a rubber in that right rear.

Yeah. And they were like, are you kidding me? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you see that stupid? but that's what it Yeah, that's what it was for. Man, it hauled ass

and it was, I think there was something to however that floor pan being raked, how much travel that car was getting or wasn't getting comparable to what it would do before with the tie-down shocks. Something about the floor pan in our car really helped that car maintain the speed it gained down the straightaway.

It would maintain that speed through the corner. And I don't know whether those other guys getting their floor pans and everything back down, created a bit of a vacuum and some drag when the car would compress and travel in the corner and ours having the floor plan raised in the back would allow that car not to create drag and allow that air place to go.

But it was something special. But we were still playing around at the same time with the fuel cell hype. Yeah. You know what I mean? Getting it out. Getting it out. And we, I know, we went down there testing

and we had a cap on there, simulated that fuel cell. And we left that cap on the whole week down there and testing, but we knew it was better. Without it. Without it. You had it on there to sandbag a little bit? Well, once again, everybody came back down there for the races, and they had their fuel cells

lowered down, and we still had ours up. Yeah. You took the cap off when you got home before we got to load it. Yeah. I remember we'd go to Daytona and Taldea and test, and y'all would do shit like that. I would, I'd be like, why is this like this? This is slower. You know it's slower.

He's like, well, we don't need to take it off. It's okay to be slow right now. fine. It's fine. But beating it in your head at the end of the day. I didn't figure it out. You know, you're too busy. You know what I mean? I'm like looking at the board. I'm like, I want to be faster, make it faster. Why you, why is this is slower? Take that off. Yeah. No, we can't take that off. Right. Well, it'll be off when it needs to be off, I guess. You know, 2001, I think was a, was a, was a kind of a tough year. But I wasn't, I wasn't a whole, I wasn't all that confident and are sure exactly what was going to happen for us.

I would have never, I would have never guessed what we were going to continue to build our program to where we would be in 2004, where we'd run six races. But talk about the, talk about the attitude that the whole place developed of, we're going to see this vision out. Now, I felt, in my feelings about it,

Kevin was, you know, we were all sad as shit. Right. But it almost made us go, we're going to do what he wanted us to do. We're all in this and we're doing it now. Nobody's leaving. We're all going to figure this out. We're going to do, we're going to make what they wanted to happen, happen. Is that kind of what you've...

I think, yeah, that, you know what I mean... Because a lot of people could have left. For a lot of original people, I call it original people, the old school 90 people. 90 people, you know, that was a lot of their vision as, you know, Dale Senior, this is what he would want, you know, I mean, being, you know, I mean, how he wants that, us to keep striving and racing. But for us, also as a race team, you know, your vision, you know, if you showing up, wanting to race, you know, I mean, pushed us to wanting to put you in Victor Lane even more, you know.

I didn't know that. Yeah. I mean, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, us behind you was 100% when you may not have thought it. You know what I mean? Even some of the bickering or an argument that we've always have done, I mean

just because that's who we are. But in the same sense, I think us, you know, having you, it's what we wanted to be able to carry that legacy on because of what we knew your dad wanted, but in the same

sense what you wanted, what you were capable of doing when we did give you good cars, you know, as the pretty much the thing that stuck out to me about that race team. You know, I don't really remember too much about 2002 and... Yeah, two and three. They're kind of blurs too. Yeah. But four it clicked. Four opened up.

We had, you know, 2004 was a year where I feel like our bodies, you know, talking about short track and and mile and a half stuff our bodies got real good like they were they were already good but we really

we had a new car right we didn't have the car from 2000 2001 so we developed this kind of new new body and we were starting

to really figure it out you know we we had some we started to show speed everywhere but that's four years of us being in the cup series

you know we've all gotten smarter, braver, you know, of our competitors, I call it, you know. And I think that's one thing that's helped too. Yeah. We were winning races at Talladega. We won four in a row. We won a couple no bulls. But I really loved the fact.

And we got, you know, people started saying, well, that's all that kid can do. Right. And I was so proud to go to Phoenix and win back-to-back races there or go to Dover and win in 2001 and Bristol. And Bristol. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

That was badass. That was. And do you remember? You want to know something about Bristol? I got burnt up in that Corvette. Yeah. And I don't think any of y'all knew what any of that looked like. Like for the first two weeks, man, I couldn't walk.

Like, I had to lay down. It hurt to walk. It hurt to stand up. Like, it felt like all the, it felt like everything was going to come out of this hole that I had my leg. Right. And it's the strangest feeling when your skin's gone. But it felt like all the leg muscles.

everything was going to come out of this hole in my leg. And I'm sorry if it's graphic, but I don't know how to explain it. It's very painful. And so anyways, me and my mom are having to change these dressings on this leg twice a day. And I got bad burns in both hinges of my knee, and I got a really, really bad burn on top of my thigh, on my left thigh. And there's no skin there. I don't know why they didn't graph it, but it literally is a hole about size of a

baseball that just had to heal together over time. And that whole got smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller over the course of like three months. And my body just making new skin. And so we are at Bristol and I'm still bandaging. I'm still changing that bandage. I got to go out in the bus and change it at some point in the day, right? And we're practicing.

And I'm still kind of needing a little bit of help with my seatbelts and stuff. and you come over there and I asked you to tighten it up. Yes. Tighten up the left belt. And you're yanking on that damn thing and something slipped and you punched me right in the top of the thigh. I never forget. Right in that hole in my leg. Holy shit.

I don't know if I had to get out or whatever. No. It was. That was the most painful shit. There was a GD moment. Yeah. I can't believe you just hit me there and I'm like, I didn't mean to, you know. And it was like, E still.

hill her hilling over here you know what i mean or some comment like that and i was like what do i mean we didn't realize you know i don't i went we went to uh we swept the weekend yeah and i remember standing in victory lane as the champagne started soaking through that uniform into that damn burning oh god almighty it was stinging it hurt it was hurting pretty good but uh i remember that was one thing that happened between me and you that i'll never forget the other thing was um and i don't i don't know what year this might have been, but remember when you broke your hand at Sonoma? Yeah. How'd you do that?

So, was that my fault? Well, no. No. So Sonoma's kind of tricky because you run around the car, you know, may I call it backwards? And then you got to do like some, you know, for a right-handed jacker, you got to do some kind of little of them spin. Not like the modern-day jackers, I call them today. Carrying it around or doing whatever they do. But came around and hit brake dust at the left.

the left front or right front that was laying there. And I remember slipping, and the handle on the jack kind of jetties out. And I kind of just landed on my wrist and folded it backwards. Damn. And I could not pick that jack back. I just rolled underneath the car and jacked it up. And I remember just a throbbing pain, you know, in my wrist area to where,

to the point to where, you know what I mean, I could not even pick it up to set it on the wall. You know what I mean? Just pick it up one hand and set it. odor. I didn't know if I was going to jack the rest of the day or what was going on, and I never forget, you know, the comments started rolling in, you know, about slow-ass pit stops and this and that, you know what I mean? And I'm trying to, I pull my, I actually cut my radio off and threw it, you know what I mean, on the ground because I was tired of hearing the

shit, you know what I mean? And Tony Jr. comes over and he says, can you jack, do we need to find somebody else? I'll say, I'll figure something out a minute, give me a goddamn moment, you know what I mean? So I start trying to, you know what I mean, getting Walt and the other guys to wrap me up you know i mean my wrist tight where i can use it you know but you know i didn't know how bad it was and i keep it i had it stuck down in the cooler and then i put my headset back on and you know what i mean the comments for flowing back and forth yeah still going yeah still going so i just turned it off i said uh i said something about to stop and he told you to you know calm down in there we got a broke hand i was like broke hand

who broke their hand two beer oh tell them to walk it off Yeah, walk it off. But I was used to it at the time. I was like, you know, I probably said something at that point in time. You know, I'll bust his ass when he gets out of the car or something. I remember that. He didn't say it like on the radio, but they were like, I'm going to whoop his ass. I'll whip his ass when he gets out of the car or something like that.

But, you know. That was how it was. That was the way we were, you know what I mean? And if you could not, and that's more, you couldn't take it. You couldn't take it. You didn't last. You didn't last on that team. You know what I mean?

You better have some them. solid ass underwear to wear. Yeah. That was us. I, you know, we, we had this incredible year in 2004. And, and I, hold on, was Sonoma the race where they moved to Porter Johns on you up through the S's? I don't know. Oh!

You went through the S's? Yeah. And we were like fast as hell. And then the next morning we come out for qualifying. Couldn't hit our ass. And you, you spun it out or we went off. track and couldn't find out they moved to Porter Johns? Yeah, my mark.

Your marker? Yeah. Yeah, that was. I wasn't much of a marker guy except for the road courses. We run, we won all those races in 04 and we're in a really, really good spot. I don't, you know, we had a really rough playoff. I should have known better than to mess with Carl Edwards at Atlanta and got myself wrecked down the back straight away. That was a chunk of points.

We broke them. Rear end at Martinsville, which hurt. But still had a chance. We did. We went into... But they got us on Talladega, didn't he? Yeah, I said... Got a couple of 25 points there.

Yeah. That was frustrating. We go into Homestead, and all I can... I don't know... I don't know what happened. I mean, we... Did we not? We won Phoenix.

We won Phoenix. we won the Phoenix race we won Phoenix going to Homestead and all and Kurt broke a right front or something yeah well wait we

we are in we are at Homestead and I don't know what I don't know why but in I mean after the first practice me and Tony are so damn mad

we can't even speak to each other do you remember that I mean And what the f*** was I thinking? But. No, no, no. Because this is how the split happened that didn't, never should have happened.

Never should have. I know. So, and I know you know that. We, we come out of, we go into Phoenix or we go into Homestead and we literally had one, I don't know, we went through the whole weekend and maybe it was after happy hour. And it was like two days of practicing and qualifying and happy hour. And maybe that was like the point to where it was like, I. him going in that damn holler if he's in there.

You know, we weren't even speaking. And I think I knew that I had a hard time with Homestead until the track got to where it run around the top, but I could not figure out how to get around that place when they reconfigured it. We weren't fast. We were struggling. We were arguing, hollering. You know, Tony Jr. was getting tired of my shit.

and we really ended happy hour mad as hell at each other. Worse than we'd ever been. This was like bigger, this was more than just guys just running their mouths at each other and it'll be okay. And, you know, we ran that race and just had a ho-hum kind of day and don't remember it being anything bad or good. But I think there was y'all still hollering during the race, you know.

What do you remember? I mean, I look back at that race as, you know what I mean, everything that we worked for all year. And we had an opportunity, you know what I mean? And we let some opportunities slip by. And I think it just escalated that weekend, you know, between the two of y'all. But in the same sense, it was for the arguing part of it, there was nothing no different than it ever happened. Yeah. I was used to it.

Yeah. I loved it. You know what I mean? Yeah. in the same deal as I just, you know, I didn't look at it as something that needed to make what happened. Yeah. You know?

What do you remember about all that, how it all, you know, who, you know, you can, I mean, this is a safe space. You don't know how to think I remember about, you know, that whole deal going down is, you know, after season was over, is we're going to make a swap. It was immediate? I mean, yeah. And I'm sitting there going. where do the hell

did this come from? You know and we were we never really got any kind of this is why. You know, it was just we're going to make a swap and we're going to put Michael up here

and we're going to put Del Jr. down there in the chicken house shop. You know? And that's where we're going to that's how we're going to run next year and I'm sitting there going all right. You know?

But for me, you know what I mean? As long as I've been there and being around you, I was like, you know, I mean, this isn't him. You know, why would he even want this? And I ain't saying I hadn't resent against you through that deal. It was just, there was never no you coming, walking up there going, hey, I made this decision or someone made this decision for me. Or, you know what I mean?

There was never that, you know, towards us that's been there all these years. Yeah. And it was just, you know, Tony Jr. coming up there walking in with Tony Senior saying we're making this swap. And we put Michael in these cars and we're going to paint them blue. And I was like, all right, you know what I mean? Yeah. Here we go. So I'll tell you.

I mean, I know you might have heard it since then as a long time ago, but I had responsibility in that decision. I was in the room when it was being discussed and I didn't stand. end up and say I don't want this. Yeah. And I thought maybe it might work. And I will say too, like halfway through the year, we were at Talladega. We had a, we kind of all were mad at each other for like the first half the year. Then I wrecked Michael at Charlotte down the front straightaway, which was the worst of it.

Tony Jr. and Tony Senior and everybody probably wanted to kill me then, plus some of Harvicks crew, because I almost ran over them on pit road trying to back into the garage. I remember we got to Talladega Saturday or something walking around in the garage between practices, and I saw Tony Jr. And I said, hey, I feel like this is how I remember it. It's so vague in my mind. But I was like, I don't know what you're thinking, but I'll tell you this. mind getting back together. And I was hoping he would say the same, and he did. I didn't know.

He might tell me to fuck off. Right. But I was like, man, I don't like this, and I don't know how you feel. But I'd like to get back together. And so that's kind of when the conversation started, I guess, for us to. Yeah, I think, you know, I mean. It was a big mistake. Right.

But, you know, I mean, I do know. For us, and from Tony Jr., it was like, we're going to take what he had being you, what he had, what he was sitting in. And we're going to go outrun him with it every week. And we're going to show him at the same time we're going outrun other people too. Yeah. You know, and that was what was presented us. And we, you know, I mean, took that, you know, inside of us. Yeah.

Like, we're here to outrun you. you know what I mean? Because you left us feeling. Oh, yeah. You know, and I would say, you know, it was weird. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. I never, you know, forget.

It was weird seeing you over there when you're supposed to be here. Yeah. You know? And even when we were getting wrecked, you know, Charlotte, you know, like tempers really flurran, you know, through a lot of people. It was like, you know, y'all need to stay over here and don't do nothing stupid. you know, one of them deals, which we didn't, you know. Yeah.

But. Yeah, I'm glad nothing bad happened that. Right. I am too. You know what I mean? Because we might not have been able to get back together. There might have been hurt feelings. But I think, I think with it happening, I ain't saying it was a good thing, but it was a good thing, you know, to a point that it showed, you know, you and us, you know what I mean?

Yeah. How close we really are, maybe, you know what I mean? and it just, you know, I think, you know, us getting back together after that deal kind of, you know. Yeah. I hated that it took all that for me to understand what I had with Tony Senior and Tony Jr. Not that I didn't, I didn't know what I had, but I felt like maybe anybody could make cars do that, you know? Right. And I felt like, you know, hey, maybe I need to go see if that's true.

and, you know, I learned that it ain't that easy. Yeah. And I missed the trust. I didn't appreciate, I guess, the trust, too, that you have working with family. Right. You know, you know, what you got. You can't. No.

You know what I mean? You know, at the end of the day, you know, even if you didn't, let's just say, even though you, if you didn't bring your best A game, you know what I mean? But in the same sense, you knew that that car was 100%. you know, safe 100% capable of doing them things because of the people behind you. Oh, yeah. That's what, you know, I mean, I've always enjoyed working with, you know, you and, you know, the Uri's. Yeah.

You know, that family atmosphere of, you know, we all had each other's back, even when we didn't on the terms of that deal there. If I could go back in time, I'd love to have done the Bud deal over. Yeah. because I you know first off 01 0203 were a blur I'd love to have had another shot at doing that better and I would have never I would have never made the I would have never made that change to be to move away from Tony Senior and Tony Jr. When we got back together there was a another sort of thing. that happened that really maybe didn't have to happen. But I felt like, and I don't want to speak for Tony Jr. and Tony Sr.,

but I felt like that when I got back with Tony Jr. and Tony Sr., we go a little ways down the road together in 06, and I felt like I was feeling like Tony Jr. was getting a little restless. Like, hey, man, at some point, you know, I want to know, I want to know what it's like, to be the crew chief. And like, how long were we going to be able to kind of have him accept his role under his dad? And maybe I was making something that wasn't nothing.

But it was a, there was an effort, I would say, within the company to have Tony's senior shift laterally out of Tony Jr.'s way, right, and lift Tony Jr. up into that role. And I think that was probably, that was probably something that I don't think Pops but I don't think Pops wanted to do that

you know what I'm because he was still in our shop or I don't call it our shop you know what I mean I know yeah he was still there in there every day yeah you know I mean because he you know I mean

he was who groomed us to be what we were and you know I mean turning the reins over to Tony Jr. You know what I mean Pop still you know I mean like even even when your dad would, you know, tell him, you know, I mean, he needs to back away it a little bit and let Tony Jr. do this or that. In the same sense, he's still, he was Tony Sr.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's like, his work, work ethic is just crazy. Yeah. I think we, you know, we kind of, I don't remember much about 06, 07. We had some pretty decent speed. A car tomorrow's coming in. We're running that car a little bit. But I remember a ton of engine failures. Blow up a lot. Man, we blew up a lot. Yeah. I do remember going testing that. thing at Bristol and you freaking just complaining the whole. Oh, the car tomorrow. Yeah.

It was so bad. And you made me go get a set of welding gloves. These big long welding gloves. Yeah. Mits that we changed the brakes with. And you're like, this thing's like driving it. You're, like rubbing blisters on my hands. I need, I need, go give me them welding gloves. You actually went and made laps with it. Holy shit with them welding gloves out there. Yeah. But that's, but that's, That's when, you know, I mean, that car, when it came around, you know, I mean, that allowed you run some bump stops and some different things. Other race teams probably had some better stuff, you know, or maybe a little bit more technology than we had. But in the same sense, we spent a lot of time in Lakeland. Yes, we did.

We ran a lot of laps at Lakeland. I remember that. Trying to figure that stuff out. And it was just, we were like, this is the biggest piece of shit we're messing with, you know, from what we had. That car tomorrow was frustrating. Hey everybody you want the latest Dale Jr. download apparel visit shop.orghummedia.com

We're always adding new stuff all the time especially like when we say something silly on this show. We'll put it on a t-shirt. Again, check it out at shop.dirtymoomedia.com. Me and Tony Jr. decide we're going to go do this other deal. Yep.

You had the opportunity to go. Correct. Why didn't you go? Well, you know, and I've told you probably before and I've told Tony Jr., we've talked about this several times afterwards, you know, since things have played out, you know, and it was, like he said, that was the best decision you probably ever made, and this is him talking to me.

Yeah. But at the time, in my heart, I knew, you know what I mean, something just kept telling me it wasn't right, you know, and I, and I knew your dad was gone. He's being, he has been gone from us. Yeah. But I was the person, I was like, man, I still, I'm there. You know, I mean, I'm working at this place because this man gave me an opportunity. You know, and I'm going to work here until either it catches on fire or they kick me out or fire me.

You know what I mean? And I believe Tony Sr. was already gone. He was doing the junior motor sports deal. Yeah. But Tony Jr. told me, he pulled me in office. He said, To bear, listen. He says, it's over.

the train is done. Really? Yeah. This is the comment. He was like, it's over. He says, as soon as you made your decision, you know,

what you were going to do, he says, you know, you have the opportunity. You can go with us. And I said, you know, I would love to.

You know, you know, I told him, I said, I love you like a brother. I said, but at the end of the day, it just ain't right from me.

I said, going on older, it doesn't feel right to me for some reason. And I says, and a lot of them might have been fear. You know what I mean?

and I'm not too proud to admit that. It might have been some fear of something new because of what I've always had driving in that place every day doing that same job I've always done. Yeah. But in the same deal, you know what I mean? I always, I want to more for myself too every year. I want to something different.

You know what I mean? I wanted to be a car chief. I never really thought I wanted to be a crew chief. But I, you know, I mean, I wanted to do something, you know what I mean, a little bit more and a little bit more and build myself. And I was like, I told Tony General to say, I don't think I can go over there and be your car chief.

You know, am I going to be that, you know, person? He says, well, I don't know. You know, right now. He said, I haven't got over and ironed out things yet and seen the team. And I said, yeah, but I said, I need to know these answers. I said, here, I said, if I stay here, I can do a year, you know, and I can stay with Gibson and be a car chief, you know, and stay here and not change nothing. And, you know, for me, it might have been some hurt feelings, you know what I mean? for me to you and from him, you know, to me, but in the same sense, I didn't want that.

You know, I did not want to hurt feelings. And I was, you know, ever shape, form, fashion. I was like, man, I just hope they truly understand what I want. Yeah. You know, and I think, you know, when it finally came down, you know what I mean, and we went our ways, separate ways, you know, as years went on and on and on. And it was like, he came back to me. And he was like, dude, he's like, you know what I mean?

what the decision you made was a hundred percent the way you should have went yeah he's like I couldn't because I was you know I was very vocal outspoken um didn't mind calling you an a word I did if I needed to do sorry about that but I mean I didn't yeah you know I mean because you know at the end of the day you know what I mean we worked hard and we knew what what we wanted and we knew the people around us you know what I mean but in the same sense I think going over there, I needed to be politically correct. Yeah, you had to clean it up a bit. I had to clean up my, you know, my church voice.

Yeah. But in the same deal, you know, Tony Jr. couldn't save me no more. And that, and I'm not saying he ever saved me at DEI, but he got me. You felt protected. You know, we were all family. And I wasn't family. And that's the fear, you know what I mean, the fear part of it. Oh, yeah, that was a risk.

I thought that was, you know, y'all, y'all stayed back. Tony ends up crew chiefing, your car chiefing. y'all had great success mark comes in there y'all battling for wins yeah um at what point i guess do you decide you know i know tony's that team would end up basically moving over to shr right right yep but y'all went through the gin thing and all kinds of stuff right yeah i mean everything got pretty much to us was told to get out of highway three move everything to it again building yeah which is just across moorsville right so we up and we move all the 8 shop

stuff to over there to get in and do the the partner the Mark Martin and Eric Amarola shared our ideal and the What was the culture like in that building? Similar?

No. No. No. It was more work but it was we were still up for us. Still had all your boys. Still had our boys small team you know what I mean? But in the same sense we stuck to them boys small team and then there was just a lot of other people want to know what we had been spring suspension parts and stuff like that because some new people new people right and you

didn't trust it right and i think that was a downfall for me being the outspoken individual was never going to let nothing tarnish what tony senior and tony junior worked towards spindle-wise suspension parts wise and stuff and let that stuff get out there and i protected it a lot yeah and it damn near cost to me my job over there in that portion of that one year to the point to where you know what I mean management and me were face to face and I told them I don't trust to no one never have and my contract was a handshake and nothing more than that here and they were not going to just come in here and take what we've worked all these years for even though them people aren't here no more, you know, but I would protect all this stuff until they,

you know, I mean, got rid of me there. Did Gibson come to you one day and said, hey, man, we're all going somewhere else? It felt like it was. Well, he talked about it, you know, and we, I seen Stewart, you know, hanged lingering, you know, through the garage, and he was putting things in Gibson's ear, and Gibson came, Tony Gibson. Yeah, Tony Stewart. Yeah, Tony Stewart. was talking to.

Talking to Gibson. And I really didn't know for like the first couple weeks what he was talking about until Gibson came to me and he said, hey, I may have us a deal, you know what I mean,

to either go, you know, to Gibbs or, you know, to a new team. Yeah, well, if Stewart stayed. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? He was wanting to restructure his deal over there. Or he may, you know, go and start his own gig.

That's all he would say. I didn't know it was called the S-H. I didn't know at that time. And I said, well, just let me know because I knew this deal here wasn't for next year. Yeah. You know, but we ended up, you know what I mean, doing the swap and all going over there. The whole team. Whole team.

Yeah. Picked up. How did that work? How does a team leave one organization and go to another? They never, I mean, at the end of day. Nothing they can do. Nothing they can do. You never get fired.

as coolest thing ever. I mean, you never had to go to this room or that room and they say, we're laying off these people and that people, you say, hey, I have a job. Now, this past deal, you know what I mean? Being when this got, you know. Well, you were at Stuart Haas for 16 years until they closed. From the beginning to the end.

Yeah, from the beginning to the end. Yeah. What was it like when you heard that that was going to shut down? Well, you know, the form of it is still going to date. Yes. Yeah. But, you know, when we all got together all 300 or whatever, you know, in the lobby, we didn't know, you know, what really was going to be told. You know, we've heard rumors.

But what really got told on the terms of just, you know, we have nothing for y'all next year. We have a good severance put together, a good bonus program put together for you. If you would stay to the end of the year, we understand if you can't, but y'all need to, you know, explore your options going to look for jobs. Was there a massive, like, F-U to that, you know, the leaders of that organization? Does that feel like they was turning their back on you? Or was it all like, hey, all right, we get it? I think, you know, I mean, for me, for me, the writing was on the wall. Yeah.

Year or two prior. The right was on the wall. Performance. You know, the performance wasn't where it used to be, what was accustomed to doing. and, you know, a lot of times, like you say, you know, you come in there and you used to, you know, for me, when I went there, obviously Tony Stewart was your dad. Yeah. That's the way he, you know, I mean, he presented himself and he treated us. Yeah.

And that's one thing that I loved the most about 16 years prior to that, you know, being there. Three or four years before the end, there was none of that. Yeah. You know what I mean? You had COVID, you know, that year. I mean, obviously, when this new car came around, you know what I mean? But you've vaguely never seen him, you know, and listen, nothing against him. But, you know what I mean?

He was just as pissed about the performance as anybody else. But in the same sense, you know what I mean? If you didn't, if you wasn't a racer and you didn't understand the writing on the wall, you know, you didn't need to probably be there. Yeah. Anyway, but... Well, you still work for the Haas factory team. I do. I mean, so it didn't really shut down.

No, no. It just transitioned over and got smaller. Yeah. So at one point, you're thinking they're shutting it down. Yeah. And then soon after you learn, oh, wait, they're not shutting it all down. And I might have a chance to kind of stay. Right.

That all happens in what, how... Well, we got told him me, you know, of... last year we got all told in May that SHR was pretty much done we didn't know that you know obviously in May we didn't know what was happening to this place we just thought everything was going to be sold and at the end of November we were told at the end of November whatever the date was you know I mean you were not going to be allowed back here so go look for a job pretty much and for me that was a trying time you know what I mean of going out searching because I never really had to do that in this industry.

Sure. And when you got 300 people trying to buck, you know, and trying to find something in the same place you are is tough. That being said, you know, transitioned over, you know, in probably I would say November, I want to say, probably, I want to say somewhere around September, you know, you know, got guys to talking some people, you know what I mean? about the hostile, you know, happening. Yeah.

An opportunity to stay if I wanted it. And it was just, to me, it was a no-brainer. Yeah. You know what I mean? So what's your role today? Pretty much everything that I was doing before. Yeah. And more.

I mean, way more. And like I said, we are whittled down. We're way down. You know, I mean, when you're talking 300-some people, we're sitting there now, you know what I mean, with maybe 15 people. Really? You know, on an actual cup deal. That's shit. Yeah.

Damn, that is tight. Yeah. So we're, you know, I mean, we're doing multiple things. I was just wrapping a car this morning. Yeah, but you know. That's just kind of doing it the way you started doing it. Bush days. Yeah.

100%. That's why I do it. You know, and that's why I stayed. Hey, do you think that the industry misses is, you think the industry doesn't have guys like that anymore coming in? A lot of things have changed, COVID and other thing. And guys aren't really like that gung-ho to be a jack of all trades. Right.

You know, guys are more like, my job is this. This is what I'm in charge of. I'm not worrying about anything else. This is what I do. Right. Don't ask me to do this because that's not what I do. This is what I do. I mean, for me, I don't have a degree.

But I am engineer. You know what I mean? I can do it if I need to. Yeah. you know but like you're saying specialized people you know you just you don't have that jack of all trades that can do it all yeah and there's a few and far between those you know those people like us yeah you know yeah well man i um i i've enjoyed this you guys have had a pretty decent year trying to get custard going yeah uh your bush stuff's running rather pretty good you got a couple guys

trying to win a championship in the bush series or the infinity series um And, yeah, what's like the, what's your five-year plan? Well, you know. Status quote? Yeah, exactly. I mean. Keep it digging? Keep moving.

You know what I mean? I mean, at the end of the day, this is all you ever know, this is what you do. How old are you? I'm 48. Yeah. How long are you going to work? Well, I love to quit a day, but I can't. Dang.

Yeah, I thought you loved it. Hey, exactly. But you also got to, what, get paid. Keep making money. You got to keep making money. You got a cat pink man. I understand that. How often you see Tony Jr.?

I see him regularly, you know what I mean? What's that? Every day? Every day? I see him pull in. Yeah. Y'all live across street. Right across street.

Yeah. Yeah. What's he been up to? He's building race cars. He's pretty busy now. Yeah. He's real busy, you know. So he's...

Lost a lot of weight. Yep. Yeah. Looking good, actually, you know what I mean? Yeah, I know. It slimmed down to the old school. Dude, he's under 200. Yeah.

Yeah. I told him, I said, a little bit of scare like that, got you all, you know. Yeah, he had a little physical thing. Yeah. It's all good now. But he's, uh, I saw him at the racetrack the other day. He said, how about you weigh you? I said, about 185.

He goes, I'll be there. I can be there in a week. He's getting nearest. He's crazy. Cut out all that sugar. I'm glad. Yeah. He's doing good.

I know. Yeah. I try to get him out, no different than you. I try to get him out there running with me and working out. And he just. You're still running. Yeah. Working out.

Yeah. Try to. get out on the road. Yeah. Not as much as I used to, but I do get out there. Yeah. Yeah. All right, buddy.

Well, I appreciate you coming back through. Anytime. This was a fun one. Anytime. Yeah. Part two. Yeah. Kevin Pinell on the Dale's your download.

Yes, sir. All right, so that was part two of Kevin Pinell or two beer. Two beer, two beers. Both are correct. And great to have him come back through, kind of finish out the conversation of his career. and just feel some gaps and holes for me in my own memory. Great guy, hard worker, kind of a great example of somebody who's, you know, dedicated their life to the industry and, you know, he's kind of been through a lot and seen

a lot, experienced a lot. So very, very happy to have him come through. And he's a great friend and I consider him family. So awesome to be able to have him come through. I enjoy the first part of our conversation. so we wanted to finish it up. All right, so that's the show. I hope you guys enjoyed it.

Another two-parter. Sometimes, you know, it's up to me, I guess, when we bring some of those in for the second installment. I just felt like we didn't get to everything we needed to in the first one with Kevin. So hope you enjoyed number two. And, yeah, we'll see you next time. Check out Dirtymo Media on Instagram, Facebook, X, and TikTok.