The Dale Jr. Download - The Eye-Opening Realities of Race Team Ownership with Brad Keselowski

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

Kelley Earnhardt Miller sets out to learn more about the NASCAR Cup team business model with a person she has a lot of history with, RFK co-owner and former JR Motorsports racer Brad Keselowski. After years of success behind the wheel and a foray into team ownership through his NASCAR Truck outfit Brad Keselowski Racing, Brad decided to step away from his spot at Team Penske to take a part ownership role at Roush Fenway Racing. Brad explains that his passion for having control in all aspects of a race team’s operations inspired him to take on the role at RFK, and he loves being able to contribute to other peoples’ success. After dropping his children off at school, Brad rolls into RFK’s shop daily and does a shop floor walk before taking on the day's meetings. He also enjoys having lunch with different team members as he believes food brings people together and the conversations are informative.Brad and Kelley discuss the difficulties of being an owner and driver and when you have to wear one hat or the other. Brad explains that he feels he can depend on his managers to make day-to-day decisions, allowing him to focus on the big-picture direction of the team and take time to concentrate on being behind the wheel. Brad also reveals good qualities he’s picked up from other team leaders in the past that inform the way he performs at RFK, and how it’s important to know the costs of everything the team needs to operate. The conversation also covers threats to the Cup ownership landscape, the art of appreciating employees, and Brad’s goals for RFK in the next five years.  Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The following is a production of Dirty Mo Media. Welcome to the business of motorsports. It is yours truly, Kelly Earnhardt Miller. You know, one thing that I really hope that this series does is open up people's horizons. I got in a lot of trouble and I got challenged. I don't know why you're coming here. You don't trust us. I said, no, it's not I don't trust you.

I'm running a business. A lot of people kind of feel like, well, we're, We're never getting back to where we were. Why do we ever get to where we were? There's so much more involved in decision. I mean, I want to rip somebody's head off every day. I say yes to me.

Oh, you say yes on the phone. Well, you made me say. All right, welcome to this week's episode of Business of Motorsports. Excited to be here in the Dirty Moist Studio this week with Brad Keselowski, co-owner of RFK and driver of the number six car. You're wearing lots of hats these days, Brad. How's it going?

How's the new year? Great. And then I got the dad hat, right? The dad and husband hat, which honestly, I think, prepares you for the owner hat, right? Let me hear more about that. You know, having a race team is like, you know, kind of taking care of toddlers all the time. You remember this phase where, you know, like, you walk out of the room, you come back. I'm still doing it.

Yes, yes, that's what I'm trying to say, right? So you walk out of the room, you come back, you're like, how did you get over here? And then you're like wrestling back. Yeah. Why are you over here? Yeah, why are you over here? What are we trying to do? Can you explain this to me and they can't really communicate it?

So you kind of have to read their mind. And then you're always, you know, in the toddler face, Kelly, you're always like trying to decide what to safeguard. But you can't safeguard your whole house, right? So you're like, it's the same thing with the business. You're like, do I put plugs in every wall? You're like, that's too much. You know, do I put gates up here? I gotta give them some room.

Like, it's the same concept. Like I feel like it prepares you for being a, a, a, a, a, a, a, you know, a, a, a business owner. So I'm curious about that when you say the safeguards because and I right away in my mind, I went to safeguarding kind of what you share and how you share it, right, with your business picture, the big picture, because I find that very difficult at times like, extremely. Getting everyone to row the same way, get in the same boat and how much information you share. Is that what you're talking about? All the time. Amongst many things. Yes. Information sharing is, is one of the most difficult things as a business leader to me.

You know, you want to share the vision of where you're going so you can get alignment of purpose to your point. But then you're kind of like, well, how many details do I share, right? You know, throw aside the part of, you know, somebody kind of taking your business plan and sharing it with the competitor. But there's also the part of sometimes you share things and you make people nervous. Yes. Yeah.

The maturity of the person on the other end receiving the information and their interpretation of the information. Yeah, we need to do this, this and this to grow this company and make it sustainable. You're like, what are you trying to tell us we're going to go out of business? Yeah, wait, we're not. We're not sustainable right now. What? I know. Yeah, we're like, well, you're never sustainable as a business, right? You know, that's, if you look at like the Fortune 500 and you look back like 100 years, there's less than a handful of companies that are 100 years old plus. Like, you know, in business, like, they're coming and they're going. You're either growing or you're dying, right? So you're trying to communicate to your people like, no, we're

never sustainable. Like, that's not how businesses work. We have to continue to grow of all adapt, but without scaring them into saying, oh, I better leave here before I lose my job. Like, no, that's not the point. I'm not trying to scare you. Yeah, like, slow down, right? So it's definitely very tricky. This is going to be fun. I was thinking on the way in this morning, I was studying last night and just because I know you and I've had experience with you, I knew this conversation is going to be really, really good. So let's back up a quick second and go to RFK and I know you've done the download with Dale and talked about your career, but let's talk about the decision to become a team owner at the same time still within your driving career because there's

been lots of talk about that working and how that works. And I'm going to get into some of that too, you know, as far as like how you wear both hats. But what made you want to do this? A number of things. You know, I have a passion for motorsports that, you know, is greater than just being a race car driver. And, you know, I like seeing people succeed. You know, as a driver, there's a lot to love about being a driver.

Don't keep me wrong. Like, you know, in a lot of cases, you can just show up with the helmet bag and go, right? and not have to worry about the drama of, hey, this partner didn't pay or, you know, this new expense happened. I wasn't, you know, prepared for on the budget. And, you know, that's a lot of fun, actually, just being a driver, not having to worry about those things. I bet your drivers would say the same thing.

Like, I'm glad I don't have to worry about that. But then there's other moments where you're like, gosh, we were right on the cusp of winning, but we were missing this one piece. And it's something outside of my control as a driver. And you're like, I don't like that. You know, there's a little bit of the control. freak that I think we all have where you're like, man, we were missing this one piece. I knew how to get it, couldn't do it because I didn't have the, you know, kind of the authority or command

authority to do it. So I like that part of being an owner. That excites me. I really love Kelly, my favorite part of being a team owner. And this is not, I'm not trying to get too sentimental, but there's just a lot of truth to it. It's seeing people. You miss a sentimental right here. Well, it's seeing people succeed, right? Particularly those that have either come from a a distress situation or who are just completely green, right, and have never had a chance. And seeing them succeed can mean a lot of things. Like it can mean professionally or personally, right? I'm sure you have all these stores as well where you bring an employee who's really young

and you look back five, ten years and you still think of them of that. But then you have like a Christmas party or an event and they bring their family like, oh, now they're married. You have kids? And you're like, I remember when you had none of those things. You probably feel that way about me. I'm sitting here thinking, yes. And that's to me, one of the most rewarding parts is like,

I help that person get from, you know, whatever phase of their life. Grow. What you were just talking about earlier, you helped them grow. Yes. It's like the ultimate altruism. And, you know, you guys have your foundation. I have my foundation. And we love to give back.

But there's no greater giving back than seeing somebody build a life, right? And being a part of their story to build that life. that to me is probably the ultimate high of being a team owner. And there's other probably more selfish aspects. You know, the thing about being a race car driver is, you know, it ends pretty quickly, no matter how good you are, right? You know, Mark Martin and Harry Gans, you know, they made it into their 50s. That's like the exception, you know.

That's like the 1% of one. They made it into their 50s because they started in their 30s. Well, yes, yes, there's a lot true to that. Now we're starting in their teams. Yes. And they were tough SOBs too, but They were.

You know, that's the rarity of it. And, you know, when I sit and talk to some of these drivers who've retired, like, I couldn't help but feel bad for them, right? You know, like, what's the next chapter in your life? Yeah. What do you do for the next 20 or 25 or 30 years? You know, at least, right? Yeah.

At least. And, you know, some of them have car dealerships or other business interests, but then they walk in the garage area and there's like no place for them to be. And it's kind of sad to be really honest. You know, when you think about all they gave, to the sport. So, you know, being a team owner allows me to selfishly be a part of this sport

for however long as I want to. And whenever my day with this sport is done, being a team owner allows me to make that decision, not the sport to make that decision. I don't know if that makes sense. So there's some selfish reasons and there's some non-selfish reasons, but those are probably the biggest ones. What's like an everyday, what's your day look like? Because, you know, There's team owners that are super hands-owned. There's team owners that let a lot of other people do it. What's your day look like and what's your team around you look like in the interface? So, you know, my weekdays, first and foremost, I take my kids to school.

I see you. I see you when I take White to school. You know, I will say that I see you too. It's one of my favorite things. When I was a kid, I didn't get to spend a lot of time with my dad. One of the few things I will give my dad credit for is he always took. me to school. And so I really connect that, right, with something I want to be able to do personally. And so that means I'm not there at 7 a.m. I'm there whenever drop off line allows you to get

out, right? And that's okay. You know, sometimes I'll stay later to make up for it, depending on whatever it is. You know, I love to come in the morning. I love to walk the shop floor. It's probably my favorite thing to do. I mean, you get called into the meetings and the Zoom calls and the whatever fire there is. But I love just walking on the shop floor and saying, all right, back to that other part, how did we get here? What's going on here? And then they fill you in. And nine times out of ten, oh, that makes sense. And, you know, one time out of ten, you're like, we'll back it up, right? But I love walking the shop floor. I love having lunch with people. I try to have lunch with an employee almost every day. Wow. And it might be a crew chief or a team member or manager, whatever that

might be. Because food brings people together. I'm a big believer in that. I like to eat. I like to eat with people, right? And the conversations are great. I like to study a lot at work. So, you know, I'll either be looking at something dry related or owner related and try to kind of absorb the information. And there's never a shortage of meetings in between. So, you know, I try to, we have our own gym, kind of our human performance center. I do my own physical routine at work, which is great, because I love working out with the team, right? And it doesn't always, it's not always my team, by the way. It might be like the other teams.

You remember when my mom and I used to work out with the pit crew here? Were you here? No, I don't remember that. With Walt Smith. And we did our own pit crews. And my mom and I did that. It was so fun. I love that so much.

It's great. And, you know, you get a reminder. Just those connections and things with people. Absolutely. However you can, wherever you can meet them. Yes. Come to them, right? I think that's one of the most important parts of leadership.

So you're there. I mean, you're there every day. I want to make sure our people feel that I have presence and I'm not just kind of mailing it in. And, you know, when there's a problem, I'm right here, right? It's not like, hey, how do we get a hold of this guy? But that's kind of my average weekday. And with multiple ownership of RFK and Mr. Rausch and Mr. Fenway, like how does that work as far as relationships and authority? Yeah, you know, having partners has its strengths and weaknesses.

You know, that you have this, we run our company on a board. board. Okay. So, you know, boards have voting rights. Everybody kind of has some people that have their understand their business and have everything in mind. And major decisions are made through board votes. And, you know, decisions under certain thresholds are kind of delegated to the kind of proper position. So, you know, I run our competition group and, you know, I put budgets in front of our board and we try to make decisions and I think I'm kind of answering how we kind of run the company. And, you know, we have board calls and special board meetings. and, you know, depending on what the fire of the week is.

And so it works for us. It's not your typical. Yeah, it's not. But I would liken, like, that situation to, like, someone's management team, you know, if you're talking about Hendrick Motorsports and Mr. Hendrick and Jeff Gordon and their competition director and that kind of thing. Yeah, it's the same concept. Yeah.

And then I have a staff. And it protects the interest of all three of you. Absolutely. So that's cool. Right. So when we make a decision, it's, is this best for our, the F, and the K. And hopefully that's how the vote goes, right? So it's a great way to handle that process. But for me, you know, I try to stay out of the corporate affairs wherever possible. I have to because I'm one of the board members. But I try to stay focused on the competition aspects.

So business, you get involved in the side of like sales and business and sponsors. To some degree, it's kind of like I have peripheral knowledge, but I try not to like, I let that team be that team, right? You know, as an owner and board member, like, hey, come up to us, tell us what you're doing. but go take it, you know, and it's kind of like, and hit the budget. Yeah, makes sense. How do you, I was talking to Entron Brown, who is a multi-time drag racing champion and Top Fuel. He started his own team a couple years ago, and he told me that he had to, he eventually trying to be the owner and the driver had to leave his owner had at home on the weekends.

Yes, yes. How do you manage owner-driver situations, you know, especially from the competition? inside of things. Well, I think the biggest aspect is you try to put people in place that run the company so that when you're the owner, you're not making day-to-day decisions. If I'm making day-to-day decisions, I'm living in the wrong place, right? I don't have the right. That's kind of how my view is it. Okay. Now, I should be able to come in and see things and go, ooh, yeah, I'm not sure that really fits the vision of what we're trying to do or, hey, this is an opportunity for us. let's go strike.

But when it comes to day to day, you know, probably the guy that I lean the most on, we have a man by name of Josh Selt, and he kind of runs day-to-day for the competition group. And then the corporate group kind of runs on its own with Steve Newmark. And if there is a day-to-day issue that they need me for, I've failed already. Got it. So that's kind of the way I look at it. Now they can come to me, you know, particularly Josh, can come to me at any time,

like, hey, here, I'm thinking this. Are you good with that? Yes. But it's kind of like I ask him to, to, to, you know, to be brief, brilliant, gone. Like, I need you to walk in the door briefly. Tell me what's on your mind. Say it really smart so I can understand it.

I love that. Brief, brilliant, gone. And then now, it's not original, by the way. It's a military saying. Okay. And that's what I tell them all the time. Brief, brilliant, gone. Give me the brief, brilliant, gone.

Like, if this takes an hour meeting, we've already missed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Give me something quick I can read or come to me ready to explain it. I love that. Very simply. or really you don't understand it.

Yeah. And so I've seen since I've done that with our team that they're really good at kind of bringing problems to me that are almost already solved, if that makes sense. And then kind of like just making sure you're good with the solution here. And then we can avoid the distraction. I think that that is challenging what you're saying in a smaller business, right? Like I think about junior motorsports and I think about we don't have levels of management, but as you were saying that, I was thinking, how brilliant is that for middle managers and people to learn how to be managers, how to manage what they're responsible for, how to be accountable?

And if they're managing people, obviously, you know, that goes a long way too. But it's difficult in, how many employees you got at RFK now? We're just under 200 right now. Just under 200. You know, I find it difficult in like my business thinking through that as like we're wearing so many hats, you know, and to try to, look at it that way and wearing all the different hats. We have a hundred and thirty-five. We have ninety on, ninety on the race team side. Yeah, yeah, and the rest, you know, just between. See, people forget that you have other businesses. Yeah, content company, they have about a good

15 to 17 employees now. And then we're kind of vertical like we're having our HR, you know, accounting and internet and IT and all that good stuff, you know, so marketing, social. people, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, I've fallen into this, what I call the three A's of management, which is when I walk in the door and we have a conversation about management and how we're going to handle people, I ask this question to every one of the managers, like, what's your authority, what's your autonomy, and what's your accountability? And do those three all line up. And to me, the easiest way for a business to get sideways is when the, those three are broken in your management team.

And they're not allowed to you. You know, so someone has all the authority, but no accountability. That's a really bad choice. That's a bad situation. But it's actually really common. Oh, yeah. Really, really common, especially in businesses that the older a business gets, the more common that becomes.

Like the managers find ways to skirt accountability while keeping the authority and some cases, the autonomy. And that's a huge recipe. for disaster. And I've found the more I'm able to connect those three, the more successful we've been able to be. And so I look at that as probably one of the biggest management learnings of the last 10 years for me. This morning on my ride here, I was thinking about how, like I said, I was just thinking about this conversation and how good it would be. And I thought to myself, you know, we're all wired. I'm wired as a business person. I'm wired. I'm wired. I'm wired.

as a black and white, you know, let's cut the gray out, you know, systems, processes, you know, accountability, why do they make sense? Why are we doing it this way? That kind of thing. And I feel like you're very wired that way too. And so a lot of that, you know, obviously is genetics. But what do you think, is there something in your lifetime? You know, you grew up in a racing family with your dad, your uncle, your brother, owning their own teams in that time of NASCAR, you know, and that that growth of NASCAR, what do you think has given you the background to do this now? You know, to, I mean, you got to study. You're, you're obviously very smart about this and just thinking through all the things. And there's people that aren't or there's people that don't want to do it.

That's okay. Yeah. And it's okay. It's okay. Yeah. It makes, yeah. The world relies on people being different. Exactly. Because if we were all the same, it would not function at all. So it would be terrible. Yeah, it would be absolutely a disaster. So, you know, I guess I look at people that, you know, don't have some of the skills that it might take to run a company. I look at, well, what skills do they have? They probably have skills that I don't have, and that's okay. Like, how do we just take the best ever out of everybody, right?

Yeah, Mike Davis, who started Dirty Mo Media for us, I mean, his strengths are creative, you know, thinking all of those kinds of things. And so I totally get that, you know. Yeah, let them play. Because that's not my strength. No. Like, I'm not a super creative guy. No.

I'm not an artist. You know, if you ask me to draw something, you're going to be pretty embarrassed about what I draw. That's got to be very symmetrical. Yes. Everything. That doesn't work for us, right? And that's okay. You know, as business leaders, I feel like our job is to just bring the talent in.

But do you see something through your life and career and through maybe your upbringing that did you know that that's like, when did you know that was how you're wired and? I knew pretty early on. You know, when my family had. race team. My dad was not an exceptional businessman. He was a racer and he loved the technical challenge of racing. He was the guy that was like, I'm going to come up with a better spring or better shock and I'm going to beat you. And that's what he enjoyed. He did not enjoy the, hey, we got to have a tough meeting about the finances or, you know, we've got to restructure, whatever this part of the

company is. He didn't particularly care for that. He didn't care for the, the man. He didn't care for the managing people aspects. You know, that was not him. And that's okay. But, you know, when I started to be a part of watching my dad race and the business that was associated with, like, that just, I just kind of gravitated right toward it, which I think my dad actually hated that, by the way. He was like, my brother was the opposite.

My brother was always the, I'm going to get under the car and I'm going to put the gear in and I'm going to, you know, do this and get the car up and run it. And I like, that's not my strike. You know, I'm not good at putting an engine in a car. Like, that's not what I'm good at. And my dad, like, he couldn't connect that. That was like, well, that's what you got to be to be a racer, you know? And I'm like, yeah, but I'm better at watching film and breaking it down and making this move when the timing's right to make this move.

Analyze. Yeah, problems are. So it's a different skill set. My dad, he really struggled with that. But, you know, it just shows there's more than one way to do this. More than one way to be successful in motorsports. but I don't know if there was, you know, a moment that clicked for me specifically, you know, as an owner. There was definitely moments as a driver where you felt things just kind of click.

Yeah. And I can like name all of those off. Well, talk about that in terms of being, I wanted to dive into that a little bit too. It's like what have you taken as a driver to the ownership piece of it? You know. Just a deep knowledge and understanding of what it takes to actually have vehicle performance. And I think that's really important. You know, you look at the owners now and their feedback loop is super long.

What I tell people at RFK that we have an advantage of is we have the quickest feedback loop in motorsports. Yeah. Like I get out of the car, Saturday, Sunday, whatever day it is. And instantly like, all right, we got to go fix this, this, this, and this because this isn't working. like and it's we're moving right there's no four days of meetings there's no well I don't really understand you gotta tell somebody else you don't have I mean

you gotta tell people that can make it happen but you don't have to have a yep it doesn't have to work its way up and then back down right like we're going right and that's probably our biggest strength what's something that have you had a moment where from your with your driver had on

whether you know in any of your with your teams that you went, oh, okay, this is why it makes sense now. Probably happens sometime in your first year of ownership. Oh, yeah, a number of things. You know, it's hard to pick just one. Well, you pick a couple, I don't care. You know, the biggest shock of being a car owner,

particularly at the cup level, because I had truck series. Yeah, yes, and yes, I didn't want to forget that because you were a truck team owner for quite some time. But the truck series experience, like, you know, you would look at a budget, and the budget would be, you know, let's say, eight to ten million. dollars right which is a lot of money don't get me wrong but you spend it pretty quick and it's gone before you know it and then you look at the cup budgets and you're looking at okay pretty much just add zeros to them yeah and so the the checks that come in you're like whoa yeah like you know you're like and then you look at the expense line and you're like oh wait a minute right you know so it's like

everything has another zero on it and that was probably the most eye opening like you know it but you don't know it until you live it, you know, like, if you ask me coming in, hey, is everything going to be 10 times when it's absolutely that makes sense. But then when you actually sign the check, you're like, oh, I get it. So one of the most eye-opening moments to me is when I was at Penske, the team present there, you'd probably know him, Tim Sindrick. When you'd walk into his office, he would have every kind of check run with every bill sitting on his desk. And he would go through him one by one and he would, you know, look at it. And he would say, oh, this makes sense. Put it in this pile. Oh, this one doesn't make sense. Put it in this pile. And then follow up

on the pile. It doesn't make sense. Sign the pile that doesn't make sense. And eventually, hopefully, sign both piles, right? And so I remember when I first saw him do this, which would have been, I don't know, 2010-ish thinking, oh, what a kind of waste of time that is. Like, you know. Is somebody not doing that process before? Yes. Yes. Like, don't we have. have a whole accounting team and there's a CFO, you know, chief financial officer and all these things. And I remember looking at that just like it didn't really click to me. And then once you have a race team and you start to see things happening, you're like, wait, we bought that? Who approved that?

Like, why did we buy this? Like that pile that I was saying was kind of in the middle there of, hey, this is to be signed, this is signed and this is, I don't understand it. Like, the only way you really figure that out is if you kind of watch the check run, right? Yeah. And then you could ask the questions of, okay, you have this authority, you have this autonomy to run your department, which is good, but I didn't expect us to get here. Can you bring me back where we're going with it? I see this check and probably already bought it. There's not a lot I can do about it. But I'm not sure I understand why we're doing it. And if you can convince me that's a good idea, we'll keep going, but I want to keep my eye on this.

understand this so now i kind of that one probably stood out the most to me if i was to put yeah one example out there of why being at the president or ownership level why being so intimately involved in the kind of monthly bills is so important yeah it um well the in the the the the $10 and the $20 and the $100 and the $1,000 out of click right we talk about that and you probably experience this uh in your roles with with day old they'll be like oh just get them you know just get them this or get them that or, you know, he just wants to make everybody happy, you know. So if we're talking about like our late model driver, he's like, just buy shoes and buy his gloves and buy us like, we don't buy their helmet, you know, we don't buy all that for them, you know.

And it's no big deal. And then you look, then he looks at the bigger budget and he sees it all and he's like, well, are we spending all this money? And it's like, wait a minute, you know, you told us to buy that and buy that and buy that. All those little items added up, you know. So it is. You got to keep your eye on it. You don't want to, you know, I don't want to get to the point.

I remember back in my action performance days, our management changed our toilet paper. And it was terrible. It was awful. It was awful. And they changed something in the break room like for our paper plates or something. And I was like, oh my gosh, really, this is the level we're headed to now. Like, come on. Well, this is a common problem in all of business is that, you know, financially, this has been my experience at least.

businesses kind of work their way to the strength of their finance team. So if your finance team doesn't really understand the core business they're in, they will start to change things that aren't really a part of the core business to try to compensate for it. And I've seen this in all the businesses I've been a part of. And there's all kinds of different examples. To your point, when they don't understand the core business of, hey, we're not selling enough of XYZ product, but we don't really understand why or our cost or higher than they

should be. We don't understand. They'll come to something they do understand, which more often than not is things like toilet paper, right? Because they're like, I buy this for my house. I understand it. If I buy a single pie, it's $2.99. If I buy the expensive, it's $4.99. So we'll go ahead and change that. And it's kind of like this move to show action. More so, like it doesn't really that particular change. It isn't going to move the, but it's kind of like the sense of accomplishment. But I find too in our business, like in our sport, our industry, like we, having these conversations when you're talking about your budgets and things with your team and how you

want things to look is like, because we don't sell a widget, right? I'm not trying to make this pin cheaper, better quality so that people like the ink when it writes out, all that good stuff. You know, I find that difficult in our industry because we aren't. making this widget where I can say it's a difficult business for a financial team to understand it is very difficult it is like what do you want your margins to be what you know and how do we want this all to work because performance is money you know ultimately yeah and understanding that you're and performance is key yeah you're what to invest in to actually drive you know gross revenue right

that's what you're trying to do if if we can and we have this conversation sometimes about well we can save a couple grand if we use the radiators, 10 races instead of five races. Like, okay, that sounds pretty good. And then one radiator breaks. And then, yeah. You're like, okay, so we saved, how much here? Probably 30, 40 grand. Well, this guy was leading when the radiator broke, and that probably cost us to 100 grand. So that decision actually put us in the red, not in the black. Yeah. And so you need to try to wrap your head around that and make the best decisions you can. But, you know, you also don't want to, you have to take some risks. Yes.

Right. So it's a tough part of business. It is. All right. So let's talk about a little bit of kind of the business side. What are you seeing in the landscape of the cup ownership as far as what are some of the threats do you feel like, you know, in terms of the next few years being a cup owner and being. Well, I would say there's one A and one B. that are the two biggest threats for me.

You know, one is whatever falls out of the charter lawsuit dispute between 23, 11 front road motorsports and NASCAR. You know, that is a significant threat to all of NASCAR, which transcends the Cup Series. Everyone, yep. So how that kind of unfolds is a threat to the sport. outside of that the OEM picture and landscape is a significant threat you know NASCAR's been operating with three OEMs now for you know probably a decade a decade and a half now I would say yeah and it's a bit of a precarious position to be in you know I feel like the sport needs about four maybe five OEMs to be like kind of its max healthy position

and three is like if one walks away like there's a set of dominoes that fall and i look at the oEM landscape and and you know the car guys the next decade is it's going to be tough for them they're going to have some really difficult decisions to make we continue to see regulations push you know battery electric vehicles yeah yeah and you know the marketing aspect of that there's something to be said for that for nasker but it's not that particularly. It's more or less the financial ramifications. You know, as we're seeing companies like Tesla take off and take market share, we're seeing the, you know, the Asian auto market, you know, really take off and take market share from, you know, the current NASCAR

OEMs and potentially even move into the United States and take market share. So the OEMs are, you know, they're under massive pressure. And they're under attack. And, and they're under attack. And, And eventually that's going to work its way to NASCAR. I probably see that as outside of whatever happens with this charter lawsuit as being the biggest threat to NASCAR because it's not in our control. There's not anything we're going to be able to do. There's not, hey, we can add more value to OEMs by doing X, Y, and Z. You know, if they're not commercially viable, none of that really matters. And so do you see our sport needing to adapt, right?

What is our product? Yeah. Like what are we going to have to get to a spot where we're, more and more as an industry OEM agnostic and I don't like that I don't either because it's not how we grew up

No it's definitely not how we grew up right But I think we have It's not what I know it's not If we're looking 10 years into the future Yeah Like it's it's a big threat And you know I would like to see

the OEMs be less technical in the sport and the nature of their support and significantly more marketing and branding involved. You know what? I miss the days of turning on the race and seeing a Chevy and a Ford commercial.

Yeah. And you just don't see them. And knowing that I could run right over to the dealership and pick one up. Yes, yes. And having a race car driver in that commercial. Yeah, yeah. What I would tell you is,

OEMs are spending more now in NASCAR than they ever have, and it's not even close. But it's increasingly, you know, if you're looking at percentage-wise, it's increasingly more and more to the technical side. And I think for NASCAR, it's very important that we find a way to move the OEM spend out of the technical realm into the marketing realm of our sport and do that evenly. So, you know, if you just do that for one OEM and not the other OEMs, they'll get crushed. But I think the most significant threat is the OEMs and the best opportunity for the sport

is to, you know, and it has to come in a scaled and with a concerted effort and plan, but to get that spend out of the technical into the marketing side of the sport, which would be better for our fans, better for the sustainability of our sport, and ultimately probably better for the teams. Yeah, that's what I was thinking about, as you were saying, like the generations, like you think about our kids and what we're passing down about cars. And, you know, I remember growing up, and I'm sure you do as well. I mean, you know, the hot rods and the working on.

cars like you said your dad wanted you to know more about how to work on cars than he did anything else and you know generation shifts are they are here and they're not you know they're not as car savvy they're not interested in you know the muscle cars and all of that kind of stuff and let alone the environmental and all those kind of thoughts that everything everybody has about it but yeah it's a it's a big change it's a it's a it's a landscape shift there are still a lot of you you know, people that love cars. Yeah. There's still a lot of kids that, you know, drive by and,

and will wave when they see you drive in a cool car, right? It's out there, but it's a different perspective. Well, and to your point, how are we marketing to them? And that's missing. That is a big point that is missing for sure. I like the threats discussion. I've actually put a lot of thought into that point. But honestly, I view it as an opportunity for the sport.

If we can find a way to get those OEMs into the marketing aspects, like that's a growth opportunity for us. Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, alluding to your conversation earlier about running the business, if you're not sustaining and growing in that conversation, if you're not looking at your threats, you're dying. You're not growing. Right. Exactly. You're not, yeah, you're just hanging around the bond. I use that kind of analogy at the start. Like, if you look at the Fortune 500, there's an only handful that have been there, you know, for a century plus. Well, you kind of, one of, one of the topics here is about innovation. technology, which is a good lead off from this threats conversation.

Kind of RFK always has been, and obviously probably Mr. Rauch's background, has been a key at innovating. That's been very important to you guys. What are some of those kind of innovations that are there that you want to stay that are that are not threats? One of my biggest things for us as a company has been, you know, just, having great workflows for our people. And, you know, that's fairly ambiguous. So I'll kind of work that way down. I really wanted an RFK when I came in to be kind of a digital leader.

And, you know, there's the digital aspects of corporate functions, which, you know, might be corporate systems or might be marketing aspects. On the same holds true to the competition aspects of our business, which, you know, is all the technical digital systems. And so when I came in, And at the end of 2021, you know, I have the manufacturing business, which is incredibly digital, completely industry 4.0. And when I walked into what's now RFK, what was in Rauschenway Racing, the digital systems were, you know, pretty far behind. I think we've done a really great job of kind of getting those digital systems stronger. And the workflow that comes with it, you know, the key buzzword of. of the day is, at least as we stay in her day, is AI.

What is AI? What does it mean for our world? Da-da-da-da. And there's a lot of people that think it's a farce. And there's some people that think it's everything. And the reality is it's probably somewhere in between. In the middle. Yeah, you know, like everything else that's polarized these days. It's not going to end the world and it's not, you know, it's not nothing.

But I think that the conversation of AI is the same conversation. It's a workflow conversation. Like, how do we make work easier for people so that, You know, the general effort required to get something done is less and we can spend more time on other things that might bear fruit, whether that be in our personal, professional, whatever aspect of your life. You know, I think that's when I think of the technical challenge of today, that's what it is. Particularly as motorsports has had more and more problems with workforce. You know, there's this old saying, you know, when Jack was fully enthralled in the business at, what's now RFK, he used to have the saying that, you know, people are like 716s

wrenches, you know, you use it, it breaks, you throw it away, you get another one. Like, you could do that in 2000. That's a different philosophy. Yeah. In 2000, to his point, like when you hired a mechanic or you put out a job posting for a mechanic and you walked out the front office, you'd see 100 people lined up. Yeah. Now that position, and even more so, like an engineering position, like two,

or three people answer the resume that have any qualifications. I mean, you might get 100 people that answer it, but they're like, well, I work at a janitor at the high school. You're like, yeah, it's not really a little bit more than that. Yeah, but you know, you're lucky to get two or three people that apply. And so people are not seven, 16th trenches. They're actually really, really special and hard to get the ones that you need to drive your business forward. And more often than not, what you need to attract and retain them is workflows that allow them to maximize their day, maximize their potential. And so, you know, I think I've kind of moved forward with this philosophy of, you know, RFK and innovations that we need to be better are mainly workflow-based

so that we can attract and retain the top talent and then let them innovate. Let them use their strengths to make the cars better and kind of give them that autonomy to do so. You have a firsthand look at that, I would assume. You brought up your manufacturer business and I wanted to touch on that too. You started that in 2018. Yep. You launched it in 18. Yes. Yeah. And what made you, what made you do that? Well, that was when you closed down your truck team. Yeah. So this is kind of a long story and I'll try to be Bruce Bill ain't gone for you. You know, I started to see some of the parts on our race cars that were made using metal 3D printing technology. They were really cool. They're fascinating than me.

I won a couple races with a few of them on the car. And one that really stood out is I won in 2018. I won three races in a row. It was like Darlington, Indy and Vegas, I think it was. And we only had like one set of these 3D printed parts. So I took them off the car and put them on the next car and took them out of that car and put on the next car. Well, those are three big races because as that ended up playing out, like that was Roger Penske's first. Brickyard win in a stock car.

So he's like, take that car, put it in a bubble. And you're like, we have a... There with your part. Yeah, that's exactly, right? And then won Darlington, like, that was the Southern 500. Like, that's a big one. Take that car, put in a bubble. And then when I won Vegas, it was the 500th win for the company.

So take that car. And put that car too. And put it in a boat. So all three of these cars, Kelly, like, they took them in and I, all right, put them a bubble, put them in a bubble, right? And they all went to Rogers Museum. Like, but we don't have a number. enough parts. So anyway, I tell that story because those cars had a significant amount of 3D printed

parts, and we couldn't get them. Like the parts that we'd gotten at the time was through a partnership that Penske had, Team Penske had with Siemens. And Siemens made those parts for them. But it was like here, like it was a gift, so to speak. Like send us a couple part files, we'll print them for you. You're like, you couldn't go back and get more of them. And it was like, well, we'll find the company and make them for it. There wasn't a couple of things. there was no money to make of. You're like, oh, this seems like a good business opportunity. And anyway, that was one of the biggest catalyst. You know, outside of there were, you know, other contributing factors of wanting to better

understand the engineering aspects of men and my passion for manufacturing. How many employees are there? Today, right around 4550. And so you have an active management. Oh, yes. Yes. So I did a merger of that company with a bigger portfolio called Adman about four to six months ago. And so that company, I'm now on the board and I don't have any day-to-day

responsibility. But I am a board member. So that company is kind of, it's never on autopilot, but it has a full management team that handles those aspects. Yeah. Well, and the reason I was going to bring that back full circle, what you're talking about in terms of people and which are our best asset, right, is our people. And, you know, Mr. Hendrick has always, I've always, I've learned very much from him in terms of investing and retaining and investing in your people. Very good people person. Probably the best FFC. And so you probably had exposure in the manufacturing business, especially going through COVID and what we've seen coming out of COVID. And what you were explaining in terms of making the process is better and that workflow better at the office so that

people can, especially in our sport because of the travel, because of the intensity, because of, you know, how hard that, you know, we get to enjoy the victory on Saturday or Sunday and then right back Monday. We're trying to grind again. Want to enjoy the next victory, you know, and grinding. So, and you're always grinding. And so what's been so important to people through COVID after COVID is their work, their personal life and that work like balance, you know, and people.

Great awakening for people. Oh, we're seeing, you know, I saw people leave right away. It's like, I mean, we had people, we had somebody go to work on elevators. Yeah. You know, and I'm like, wow, why would you want to leave this sport? And of course, you know, we're just like embedded in it. And, you know, why would you want to leave this to go do that? It was, you know, stability and not traveling and home life, you know, and everybody comes

in, obviously, I'm so glad, like, remote working, so to speak, is going on, not the forefront of everything now. Yes. Although we can do a lot of things remote that are great. But, you know, that's been so important to our people. And that's what I'm finding, you know, when you're trying to hire and you're trying to attract people is what and I think we've done it very well time and time people walk away from junior motorsports saying you're one of the you're the best place I worked yeah you know you made me

feel like somebody and what you're talking about walking on the floor all these things that you're doing you have to make them feel appreciated feel connection you have to make them feel valued and he needs to be genuine right yeah yeah absolutely my dad and I learned that for my dad I mean he you know he could name everybody in the shop and know their kids and what's going on and that comes natural to me. If somebody tells me, you know, hey, my wife's going to surgery on X date and, you know, a couple weeks later, I'll think about it and I'll go back and say, hey, you know, how's your wife doing?

How's recovery going? And it's natural for me. It's not natural for a lot of people. Yes, 100%. And it's, you have to be intentional. I still hear stories because, you know, we have employees that are at RFK that were at DEI in the late 90s and early 2000s. And one of the stories I hear oftentimes for them is how your dad used to greet.

treat people when they drive in in the morning. It was like a security shack. Yeah, security shack, yeah. And people still talk about that throughout the industry. Like, that's one of those kind of like legends. Yeah. Of employment. Yeah.

It matters. It shows you how 20-some years, 30 to 25 some years later for a lot of these people, right? And they still remember. Yeah. So what are your goals for RFK over the next five years? Well, we got it to the third team this year, which is huge for us. You know, the, economics of the sport, the more teams you have make a lot more sense. Clearly you understand that.

When we went to four teams, I was like, we've done a lot of things in our time here, like bridges. And understanding the big picture, I think this is cool for fans and listeners of the podcast to understand is like you kind of bridge things at times, you know, and you make a decision to do something because it's going to allow you to do something better, you know, later or whatever. And so four teams for us was kind of that thing. It was like, like you said, you know, overhead and all that kind of stuff looks a lot better with four teams, but how long were we going to be? And we're like, oh, we just need to do this for a year or two. And then here we are.

And then we're running a fifth one at times. Yes, yeah. No, that's a good thing, by the way. You know, I think for us getting the three teams was a huge moment or is a huge moment for us to be able to scale the business and kind of have that stability kind of back to their, you know, why are we going to three teams? like trying to tell our employees like, this is stability we need so we can, you know, have a better business model. Oh, are we going on our business? And they don't look like it's just, it's more work.

Yes, yes, exactly. What's, you know, sometimes it does happen. It is. It is. Yeah. Depending on what department you're a part of. But that's a big win for us. You know, you're just trying to always add partners that, you know, our blue chip partners. You know, so, you know, this year we added Kroger, which was one of the kind of biggest wins. If you're a fan of the sport and not particularly the business aspect of it, but more just the competition aspect. Like, you see a big partner like Kroger come on the car and it kind of just in one ear without the other. And I understand that.

If you're a fan of the business aspects of the sport, like, that was a huge win for us. Like, from the corporate side, that's the equivalent of kind of like making the final four. You know what I mean? Yeah, but I see that as a win to the fans and business side because the consumers want to see things they can touch, feel, and support. From a marketing aspect. 100%. But when you try to kind of measure wins, it's hard to do. Like, what kind of corporate win was this? Was this winning a race? Was this a top five or was this winning the championship?

Bringing in Kroger for us from the corporate side was it's a big, big win for us. It gives us more stability and the ability to scale into three teams. So a lot of great success there that I'm proud of. And then, of course, a lot more work to do. Because of competitive aspects, we want to contend for championships. We want to win championships. You know, we put cars in the playoffs the last two years. We want to just be in the playoffs. Yeah. We want to go the distance in the playoffs, right? And you know, the way the format is, you know this is much as anyone else. You get to the final race with the final four, whether you win or not, you know, you might have kind of almost rolled dice. But you want to be in that hunt. That's where you want to be. You do. But it's so

disappointing at the same time. Like, I don't know how you feel. I can't think. think right off the bat where your teams have made it into the different top 12 top eights and tops fours but man you get to that top four and you don't pull it off and you feel like your entire year just doesn't matter to an extent you know it's painful it's painful it's so painful but then you have to look at it and go oh my gosh we made this final four you know i'll liken it to my son why it's racing and we just went to the tolosa shootout 1800 entries one of the divisions was... Yeah, 1800 entry.

You make it that A-Main, like, that's almost the win. He did. He made an A-main of two of the four events, top 24, you know. And obviously a lot of things had to go his way in terms of draws and looks and things like that. But then, you know, getting on there and doing it. But to your point, that's almost the win. It is. But everybody wanted to know, well, how did he do in the A-Main? And I'm like, well, he finished 17th and 23rd.

Doesn't sound that great, you know. No, no. But he made it there. Yes, yeah. And he, in his second, well, this is, yeah, in his second attempt in a class or two. and it's like that's, I need to liken it to that because, you know, we go to the final four and we lose and it's like, gosh, you know,

wow, we work so hard to get there and this is such a disappointment. And I forget to relish that, you know, making the final four or something. Or you won like six races during the year. You're like, oh yeah, those six races don't matter because we had one bad, you know, for me, 2020 was that way. Yes.

We won four races, I think. Finished second at Phoenix, you know, missed out of the championship. And you almost forget about the races you won or all the success. Because it all mattered to the one that you got to. So what's your thoughts there on some of this conversation about the format and changing? You got any thoughts there that you want to share? You know, it's not my decision. Yes.

I would start by saying that. You know, the current format is, in my opinion, has some flaws. Every format. It's going to have a flaw. Right. Yes. You have to pick the. flaws you're okay with having.

So that's the conversation. Yeah. What flaws are we okay with having with whatever system we have? And that's in every sport. That's not an, like, you know, I watched NFC playoff games with the, you know, the NFL. And, you know, they made some changes over the last few years where they added more teams to the playoffs, common theme, have more games and all that. And, you know, there's this conversation around, well, that's not fair to these teams because they

don't get a buy and they used to get a buy and you know they're having that same conversation right now like hey should we get rid of this in our format and this has happened this kind of transcending sports where all of the sports are looking at their playoff formats and like I think we should change it and you're like well okay maybe maybe not like but what do you actually value yeah and what are you okay with kind of falling to the wayside you know from a NASCAR perspective you know the format has taking a radical shift. It went from, you know, the original format, which was all season long, every race matters, you know, 25th at Pocono in June might decide the championship.

You don't know until you get to the end to, well, one race in Phoenix, there's a champion. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I guess my perspective is that's not what I vow. you yeah I like the playoff format but I I would like to see I think it adds value from the to the fan right to see the playoff kind of format but then I would like to see that top 12 or that top 16 with whichever series we're talking about then you know be like the full season almost to where maybe the champion comes out of the top 16 based off of those 12 races or how many of a races or in the playoffs.

I'm so open-minded. I mean, I've got a little bit of- There's got to be something about that. Because I didn't like them running away with it either. Yeah. So, you know, that's not, I mean. I've got a little bit of nostalgia, to be quite honest with you. Yeah.

That was okay with you. I did like that. Yeah. It was okay with me. But, you know, what I value more than anything else is not the nostalgia. It's, you know, not the four cars, one race. What I value is something that's engaging. Yeah.

to watch and brings our fans. That's why I think the playoffs have that aspect of it. There is an aspect of it. You know, I don't fully agree with how we got there or where we're at. It's not my decision to make. I would probably make some significant changes if it was my decision to make. So that's probably my best answer. It's also hard.

You can't even compare the champions of today to the champions. You know, like when we're sitting here talking about seven-time champions with Richard and Jimmy and my dad, you know. Way different. Oh, it's so different. You know, even the 200 wins. You're having that conversation with Wyatt sometimes. He's really into like a lot of the historical nostalgic stuff and just like, you know,

how did they do that? That was different. Well, we raced. 70 times a week. Yeah. Seven days a week. And one time at the fairground and the week later they were at Charlotte. More like dirt racing, you know, where we're going 80 to 100 races with Wyatt and several

in one weekend. Well, you look at what Kyle Bush did. You know, 200 wins across the three. series. Like that'll never happen again. Once they eliminated the cup drivers from the Xfinity series and truck series or severely limited, like there might be another, you know, Kyle Bush out there. They'll never get to do what he did. Yeah. Because the rules won't allow it's a different error. Do you feel like, like one of the things I've been thinking about for our sport is the ages of kids and like these heroes. Like you talked about Harry Gant and you talked about Mark Martin and

these heroes that people can relate to. And while I think, you know, on my team from Xfinity standpoint, we have some kids with a lot of talent. The key is connecting them to our fan base and the consumers and then companies, because that's what makes our world go around, right? And you don't get that opportunity to build their personalities. You know, I have very limited opportunity as an Xfinity team owner to have somebody here, maybe two years, if they have a lot of of talent. And you don't get that opportunity to build their personalities and show people who they are and all to then attract sponsorship and all. Do you have some thoughts on that as far as it relates to truck, Exfinity Cup? Well, first off, I think Cup should have the same rule of NFL in some of these

other leagues where you can't be in Cup until you're in your 20s, whether it's 20, 21, 22, whatever. And that's for a couple different reasons. One, you need an opportunity. for them to grow who they are and mature for not just marketing reasons, but even for competitive reasons. Yeah. Well, we saw that with Josh Berry being in our late model car. Ryan Priest is a great example on your end of that. Chris, I mean, you know, some good examples.

But you want people that are in cup that, you know, have a certain level of maturity that, you know, just is very rare to find with somebody in their teens. Racecraft. Racecraft and just comprehension of what's going on. You also want to do that to protect the law. lower levels of the sport, which is really important. We need the late model series and the ARCA's and the K&N series. We need those to be healthy series. And they're not healthy if they have 14-year-olds racing in them. And they have 14-year-olds racing in them because you can be in

cup at 18. Yeah. So it works its way. Like it all starts at the top and flows down. Yeah. We have that conversation about Wyatt, my son. And you have to. Don't be mad at the kid. Don't be mad at the parents. Be mad at the system that made them do this. I'm not mad at any 18-year-old that wants to run cup. I would, yeah. You would have loved to done that too, with you. Yes, absolutely.

But at some point, we have to protect the sports interest. And then at some point, we have to protect the actual kid. Yeah. Or I shouldn't always say kid, but young adult, whatever it might be. And the way we protect them by kind of almost limiting their opportunities is to give them time to mature. Give them time to, and, you know, the way we grew up, or maybe not the best example, give them time to actually graduate high school. Yeah.

Give them time to, like, we're not rushing through that of like, hey, we've got to graduate right now or I won't be able to go to Talladega, right? Experience in life is so important. Any and every, like you said about, you know, being a dad and being a husband, all these things. Like you learn every single day in all of the situations, on in a business. business. Good or bad. What you've taken, yeah, good or bad. And it's so important to be able to have those experiences because that's what you take away to the next situation. Yep. To then. And if you don't get that, like a good or bad decision. You're not taking anything to the next.

Exactly. Which ends up being at some point, if you're good enough, the cup level. So, you know, I'm really big on this concept of we don't need 18-year-olds in cup. That needs to work its way into more of the rules of some of the other professional sports, whether it's 21 or whatever that might be. And that actually protects everybody downstream. And I think that's something that is really important for the sport. Yeah, I agree. I think I might have heard your goal for RFK this year is to make the playoffs. That's the goal every year. But this year, you want to contend in the playoffs. Yes. Are you going to make that happen? And we made a lot of changes in tournament. We actually had a lot of internal changes in our

competition group and overhauled a few departments and kind of applied some lessons learned. We had, you know, 2024 was kind of a tough season for us competitively. We won races and did all those things. But in tournament, we had some things that we had to clean up. And we did a lot of cleaning over the last, you know, probably 30, 60, 90 days. And I feel really good about it. It's already bearing some fruit. Fantastic.

Obviously, I can't go on all the IP. Well, no, but then, you know, just a lot of luck, a lot of things like that. Yeah, you have to, absolutely. You have to peek at the right time. Given the format, you know, you look at what Joe Lugano's done. He just won the championship two of the last three years. I don't think there's anybody that would say he was the best car in 2024 by any means. But he was hot when it counted. Yeah. And that's what the format rewards. So, you know, being able to strike in that way is really important. So, Brad, when you came in, you were admiring the studio and kind of reminiscing and telling some stories about the first day you walked in here in 2007.

And I was looking at the school bus trophy. And we were over here looking at the school bus trophy, which is, I don't even know how tall. It's taller than me. Six feet it looks like or so. And we were talking about the change in trophies and how they've changed throughout the years. And we were talking about the cost of trophies and the fun. It's changed over the years too. I haven't bought, like, you know, you look at this trophy.

I mean, again, why it was. wins trophies from Millbridge that kind of looked like that school bus trophy. They got crayons and stuffed stuffed in them for kids and things like that are funny. I don't have a clue how much those costs. I would say 100 or 200 bucks. But we were talking about the trophies for NASCAR. And who even gets to keep the trophies? And this could be interesting for people. You know, in our agreements and what I've always known from growing up with my dad and Dale and being on that driver's side, the driver got to keep the trophies. You told me that you've run for some team owners, that the team owners got to keep the trophies and you had to buy the trophy.

There's some interesting battles that happened. You know, this is one of the surprises of being a team owner is there's things you can do you didn't know you could do, right? Like, you can just take the trophy. Like this and there's actually, we've had some battles at certain victory lanes where it's kind of like, go get the trophy before the team takes it. You know, like, you're in victory lane and you're happy and you're smiling and you're

like looking over at your bus driver or somebody, get that trophy, get it on the bus before somebody else grabs it. And then you get like the call like, hey, the trophy went missing in Victor Lane. Do you know where it is? Do you have it? I'll have to check, you know. So trophies have become their own story of motorsports, right? Because, you know, most sports have like a trophy, but it's only like the championship.

Yeah, the ear end. Yeah, exactly. You don't get a Stanley Cup or whatever. Exactly. You don't get a trophy in football for winning week three. Yeah. You know what I mean? Maybe you should.

Like they give away a game ball, but you don't get like a trophy. And I think part of that is because those sports, all the competitors don't compete against each other at the same time. So I'm glad that you do and ask her. So I want to make sure that's right. Yeah, yeah, we want trophies. We want trophies. We're not dissing trophies. We're totally not dissing trophies.

We might be shaming a few track owners who have decided to go as cheap as they can on some trophies. But then there are other tracks where, you know, they give away the coolest trophies. like I think I saw in here somewhere. Was there a grandfather clock? Yeah, there is. Yeah, yeah, Martin'sville. And like, that's part of their story. And, like, you go to that track telling your team, I want a clock.

Yes. And the fans see that clock in Victory Lane and it clicks. Like, I think that's incredible. I love that tradition. Like Texas, I can think about Texas and the gun firing and the fireworks. And I like, I love those traditional things that set a track apart for that reason. So what's your favorite trophy? Oh, gosh.

And all that's car. Well, let's talk. talk about the ice cream trophy. Okay, please. I get a feeling this is not going to be your favorite. This might be your least favorite. Yeah, but no, but really visually, it's a gorgeous, beautiful trophy. And I've never got to.

I'm so jealous, by the way, that that is the Exfinity trophy. Because I went through this whole thing. I watched the race. It's big. I saw the trophy like, this is awesome. The ice cream cones like this. Yes, it's so cool. It's the Andy's Frozen Custards trophy.

And I don't remember which race it is, but we won it. It's Texas. I don't know. the spring race. We won it twice. There's only one race now in Texas. And but that trophy is so expensive. And as a team owner, I have to make that decision.

Like most trophies are two to $4,000, you know, range. And this trophy is tens of thousands of dollars. I'm not going to say exactly how much it is. It's a piece of art. It is a piece of art. But I still couldn't afford the piece of art. And I made the decision not to buy it. And we made a replica of our frozen trophy because the driver got cheaper.

The trophy, a cheaper replica. And, but it's a gorgeous trophy, you know. I mean, it's like thinking about those traditions. I remember lined up. My dad won Bristol like seven times and I remember those trophies. I love to be able to see the trophies. I like the continuity. I do too.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's one thing that I don't like is in today's is like sometimes we lose that continuity. You know, I like for it to be like all those trophies beautifully lined up were a piece of art themselves. You know, like the. Oh, I totally appreciate out like Charlotte hasn't changed their. trophy. Yeah, Dale's most popular driver trophies. You know, they went through a change with those. They were one way and then they turned

them into something else. So you don't have the continuity, yeah. You know, yeah, I just love, I mean, you're sitting here looking, look at this little All-Star Race Trophy over here and what they've turned into today. 2011. Isn't that now like the ice, isn't the, on the end there? Is that the All-Star? What is that?

Yeah, yeah. 2011's trophy? And isn't that the, I don't know. That's the Sprint Fan vote, I think. Oh, the Sprint Fan vote. Oh, I'm sitting here looking my glasses are obviously not sprint fan by okay so that's different yeah because that's a crystal right yes i think so but they've changed so much over the years that i i appreciate back to what you're saying tracks that have continuity and if you're a new track like to me the litmus test for being a new track and this sounds almost petty but it's like do you have a cool trophy have a cool trophy if you don't

have a cool trophy like i almost feel like that should be like oh so you're a track and you want to date let's see your trophy i guess if you got a good trophy like you get it. If you don't, you're out. Yeah. I feel like, and there are certain tracks that are known for having terrible trophies, certain tracks that are known for going over the top. So, you know, to your Texas story, I saw the Xfinity Series trophy,

and I immediately want to go look at the Cup one. Not cool. It's like, wait, how are you going to let the Xfinity Series have the cool trophy and the Cup series have a lame trophy? I know. Sometimes I look at them and go, wow, that was the trophy. Sometimes I can't even tell it was the trophy. Oh, that was the trophy.

We've got a trophy internally. It's like on a blue stand that looks like a sphere. It's got a bowl, a crystal bowl on it. I don't know what track it is, but I always have to look at it and go, oh, yeah, that's a trophy. Yes, yeah. It is unique, which is a good factor. We've talked about. We like for them to be unique.

But it's so odd that I forget that it's a trophy. And we have two of those running around the office too because I see those on people. So I have two trophy stories. Can I tell you two trophy stories? My favorite. Where do you keep your trophies? Most of them are at my mom's house. That's another thing. I don't keep them in my house. It's like all these trophies. Yeah. Like what do we do with them?

They're pieces of art. Yeah. I'm afraid particularly having young kids. So they're your moms. Yeah, so they're at my moms. And then they're kind of sequestered. Okay. So tell your trophies. All right. I got two trophies. I'm going to take it. First one, this is my favorite all-time trophy story is from when Henry Ford won his first race. Because you were talking about trophies and you can't tell their trophies.

So Henry Ford, when he goes around his first race, he is, like, predicted to be last. Nobody knows who he is. There's this guy who's, like, the hero of the time. His name's Alexander Winton. Like, the race is being run. It's in Detroit. And this guy is such a favorite that the guy putting on the race,

the promoter for the race, calls him. It says, hey, I got to make a trophy for this race. You're probably going to win it. What do you want the trophy to be? The guy goes to his wife and says, Because, hey, honey, what do you want the trophy to be? Because at that time, trophies were more kind of like household items. She goes, I want a nice crystal punchball set.

Like a really nice. So, like, yeah, we'll make that the trophy. Calls the promoter. Yep, that'll be the trophy. And I don't know if they engraved it or whatever. And so goes to run the race, loses to Henry Ford. Henry Ford wins the race. And the trophy was this beautiful crystal punch bowl set, right?

To your point, you don't know it's a trophy. So that punch bowl set sat in his house until the day he and his wife passed away. And now when they went to the Ford's passed away, Henry Ford and his wife, Clara passed away. Like they went through his house and they cleaned it out and they just like, we don't know what this stuff is. They got rid of the punchable set. The crystal punch because they just thought it was like a household item. Yeah. Yeah.

Like it literally went to like some estate auction. This is of all the trophies in the world. the most historic, significant, because he winning that race funded Ford Motor Company. Wow. Nobody knows where the trophy is. Still to this day. To this day. If somebody ever found that trophy, we're talking maybe tens to hundreds of millions of dollars

for that trophy. It is to me the coolest motorsports trophy story. This thing would be worth more than the Stanley Cup. That's awesome. Because it is literally the birth of Ford Motor Company was him winning that race. probably just put a few people on a hump. Yes. So if you are like one of these scavenger people, the Ford family has been looking for this trophy for decades. So who knows, maybe it ended up somewhere in one of these viewers'

homes. They're like, but they don't know either, right? It's just a beautiful crystal. That just prompted me another question because I know you got another trophy story. But when someone finds or has a piece of your family's memorabilia or a trophy. Oh, it's hard. Oh, it's so hard. And now they didn't pay for it. And I don't, because I don't want to get into the pay, you know, I think it's fair. Like, obviously, if they paid, but like, man, my heart just goes like to give it back to the person.

Like, it means so much more to that person. You got a feeling there. It's really, like, I've gotten to the spot now where, you know, when I first started racing, I kept things that I don't value now. Like, I kept, like, the first time I was in a newspaper article, I thought it was the coolest thing, right? So you keep that. Now you're like, hmm.

What am I going to do with this newspaper article? Yeah, everything's digitized. It doesn't matter. But then you don't keep things that you look back now, like your first talent, gone. I have no idea. No idea. It might have thrown away as far as I know.

Your first fire suit, like, I have no idea. And that's the stuff. You're like, that would be so cool to have now. But every once in a while, there's an item that gets to somebody else and they take care of it. And then you get in the situation of now I really value it. I want it back. I know. And what does that look like?

Those are hard situations. They're really difficult situation. You have to remember how blessed you are that these are the problems you're having. Oh, absolutely. I found, or my brother found a race truck of my dad's. We don't have any of his trucks from when he race. Not of them. My brother found one.

Guy kept it in a barn still in fairly original condition. and you're like, I got to get to say. Then you have to decide what it's worth for you. Yes. Yes. And where are you going to keep it and store it? Because that's another thing is like, where are you going to keep all this stuff? And then you have to fully restore it.

And you got all that. So it's not just getting it, buy it. Now you got to restore it. Like I look out the window here and look at that car. Like, so you bought it. But then you had to restore it. Yeah. Probably got a couple hundred thousand dollars restoring it.

And you're paying that. And you're like, what are we doing this for? Yes. Yes. And you want to think, like, well, maybe my kids will think this is cool. Like you're trying to justify it. And then after a few minutes of justify it, you're like, no. Yeah.

No, there's no justification for this. This is almost like a just, it makes you feel like it's one of the few chances you have to reconnect to that period in your life. Whether it be yourself personally or your family member and that small like moment is. Sometimes that's all you have to connect to your family, you know. We're both in the same spot. Neither of our dads are living. Like when I saw that truck, it was like for a second, it's like he's still here, you know? Yeah.

And it just, I mean, it's lots to you. That's how I feel about upstairs. I told you when you came in that the guitar for Nashville and our pitchers there and every employee at the time when you won that race signed it outside of the map. I have one. I've got a duplicate of it. And it's hanging upstairs and it hasn't moved. You know, all the different things that you go through.

through all the different drivers that have come through all that. But I look at that picture. Yeah, I look at that picture. And it does exactly what you just explained. It reminds me where we were, where we've come from, all of those things that has taken to get to here. Because I don't think we do that enough in our careers. We all, I mean, we're just too busy.

We're just too busy. All right. So last question to sum this. This has been a fantastic conversation. It's been awesome. Best piece of advice somebody gave you in business and who was it? It doesn't have to be the best because I'm sure you've gotten. In business.

Well, that's maybe you take into your business these days, you know. Okay, I actually just told the story yesterday, and I almost told it today while we were earlier in the interview, but now I got an excuse to tell. There's this gentleman not in motorsports. Runs a company. And when you run a company, you know, you can't work your way up the ladder unless you're the founder,

but you work your way up the ladder and there's a lot of ways you can do it and typically when you look at a president or CEO they come from one of about four or five positions that they might be the chief marketing officer they might be the chief legal officer they you know might be the chief of operations every once in a while someone who's the chief of financial operations becomes the CEO and really how that person works their way up is as much about the person as it is what the company values, right? So if you're a company that, you know, is all about marketing, you're probably going to make your CMO, the CEO. If you're, you know, all about legal problems, you're probably going to make your chief legal, so on and so forth. All right, so I was talking to one who became a CEO who was a chief finance officer. And I was

asking, like, well, it's kind of strange. Like, you know, I'm glad you made it. Don't get me wrong, but I'd like to know more about your journey and, you know, must be your special, along with kind of what you do to this company. And he was kind of telling his story and it ended up being more universal than, at least to me, than I think he thought. And he was saying, you know, when your chief financial officer, your job is to know the numbers, right? And you got to know, like, did we spend a million dollars on X? Yes, we did. And did we receive X? Yes, we did. And Did we sell it for $1.2 million? Yes, we did.

Like, that's your job as a chief financial officer. But when you're an actual, you know, on top of everything, when you're the CEO, you need to know that part as well. You know, like you don't lose the kind of the what, so to speak, what happened. But you need to know if it actually made sense. Did we, did buying that for X amount of money and stuff, did that make sense? Did that fit the vision? of the company, should it have cost that much? Should it have sold for that much? Does that actually make sense? Like, becoming a leader isn't really just understanding what happened, but knowing if what

happened made sense and whether it can be replicated, whether it was a one-off opportunity, it's kind of knowing if something feels right, is exactly, or does it feel right? And when it feels right, like, you can replicate it. You can grab it. Or if there's another opportunity, you've got to know if the opportunity feels right. And that is completely different. There's no book that's going to teach you that. And I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir. Like you've gotten to a spot in your life where you know the details. I mean, you probably know what a contract. You know all the, hey, this is worth X and da, but you know when it feels right. That's the level that you have to get to actually run a company. You have to understand the details, but know if it actually feels right.

When somebody tells you it's going to take a week to do something, you know, like, is it really? Do they meet that? Should it take a week? Maybe it should take a day, and this guy is just, you know, kind of bluffing so you can have it easy. Or maybe it's going to take them a month, and they've completely underestimated the task. And now I've got to, like, prepare myself for that, right? Like, they're telling me a week, but. Yeah.

That's not a week project. And you know the hard part of that being in the task? the CEO and being at the top of the chain is you get fed all kinds of things that you don't know whether they're accurate or true or not. I hate that. Because they tell you, so to speak, what they want you to hear. And so when you don't know, when you can't tell if it feels right or not, then you've got to go down the rabbit hole and you got to dig down that rabbit hole and be like, all right, I'm going to go talk to two or three other people. I'm going to talk about somebody else who's already done this project or I'm going to talk to, you know, someone who has failed at this project.

So I understand the landmines that work. And you've got to sort that out. So then you can make your own consensus on what it's going to look like. But I think he asked me, back to advice, he asked me the question of, or made really more made the statement of you need no numbers, but you're not ready until you know if it feels right. And so I always ask myself when I'm sitting in the meeting like, all right, you know, here's the quote or here's the whatever it might be for whatever decision and the memo and all the data. I'm not, does it feel right? And if I can't answer that, then I kind of have this internal strife of like, I need to go flush this out.

And if it doesn't feel right, but I know the answer to it, like, I got to have the tough conversation. And you got to figure out how you say it. Yes, exactly. You know, and but that's, that's kind of like the next level to me of leadership that you really, you can't quantify. Yeah. But his piece of advice made me sit whenever I'm in a meeting and somebody's telling me, like, does this feel right? Stop. Does this feel right? And oftentimes it's while the other person

is talking, right? And you're like, wait, I got to still listen to this person. But then I got to decide. See if I can make it feel right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, that's probably one of the best pieces of my side. That's awesome. Well, this has been good. I'm so thankful for you to take time out to come over. I know that you have your hands full. And I love it. I love seeing it. I love seeing your growth. Thank you. From the time that you walked in here and we were helping you pick out, and all that fun stuff. Yeah, we had a lot of fun, didn't. Where you have grown today with your wife page and your kids, a little boy, we didn't

get to talk about them very much, but love watching them on social and their family. I love it. Yeah, the family, that's, we balance that checkbook like a business sometimes to my wife's chagrin, but yeah, that's another business. You're doing awesome things. You still got a lot of road in front of you to make, to make this sport continue to grow and sustain as we want to see it. So it's been fun.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Likewise. Glad to be here. Appreciate everything else done for me. All right. I hope everybody's enjoyed this episode of business and motorsports. It's probably, it's ranking up there with one of my favorites.

And we'll see you next week here in the Dirty Mo Studio. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.