The Dale Jr. Download - Which Multi-Disciplined Driver is the G.O.A.T.? Settling the Debate with Mike Joy, Dave Moody, & Ken Martin

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

The great Mario Andretti was on the Dale Jr. Download this week, and he was asked about motorsports’ Crown Jewel races. Not NASCAR’s Crown Jewels, but the biggest races in motorsports collectively. That got us wondering, with Kyle Larson’s recent cross-over into IndyCar, who is the single-most versatile, multi-disciplined race car driver in history that competed in the Crown Jewel races? Who should be considered the best? And who amongst us could take over that mantle someday? We have an all-star panel to help inform our discussion. Legendary FOX Sports broadcaster Mike Joy, Sirius XM & MRN personality Dave “The Godfather” Moody, and the Director of Historical Content at NASCAR, Ken Martin, all weigh in and help settle the debate once and for all. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What does it take to be the best? That's kind of a loaded question, right? I mean, we kind of know what the prerequisites and the criteria is in NASCAR, but today we are tackling a much bigger, broader topic. What does it mean to be the best in motorsports? Any car, any series, anywhere. Mario Andretti was on the Dell Jr. download earlier this week. And that is a name that certainly comes to mind when you're talking about this list. But who else should join him on that list? And what standard of excellence. Do you have to meet to be on it? And also what drivers are on the rise to possibly join that conversation with him one day. We have a wealth of knowledge joining our show today on DJD Reloaded. We have Fox NASCAR's Mike Joy alongside Series XM and MRN's Dave Moody. We've also got the NASCAR director of historical content and Ken Martin joining us as well. We have a lot to get to today and a lot of questions concerning the best to ever do it. So let's get started. The following is a production of Dirtymo Media. Welcome into another episode of DJD, Reloaded.

You've won the Indy 500, Dayton 500. What are the crowned you? What races did you feel like are some of the biggest races in the world? Well, I think that's pretty easy. Welcome inside the Bo Jengles studio. This is DJD Reloaded. I'm your host, Carla Gepphard. And right off the bat today, I have the pleasure of being joined.

by two broadcasting legends in the NASCAR world. We have Fox NASCAR's Mike Joy and Series XM and MRN's Dave Moody. And guys, I mean, you are for sure known for your NASCAR coverage. Your resumes are impressive and extensive. And that's one reason that we wanted to have you on this show today to kind of give us a little perspective on this conversation. But you've also both been around racing for a long time since you were younger. And I think that is even maybe the bigger part of why we wanted. to have you on to talk about some of the best race car open wheel racers ever.

And so I know that you're going to be able to speak to the NASCAR side of things, but you're also going to be able to give us a lot of perspective outside. So Mike Joy, appreciate you coming in. Dave Moody, appreciate you as well. Thanks. Thanks. Good morning. Glad to be here.

So obviously, like I said, we're talking about the best to ever do it. And I think I don't want to speak for you, but I think when you're thinking about criteria for the best to ever do it, a lot of times in conversation, those crown jewel races kind of come to mind. And Mario Andredi was on the Dell Jr. download earlier this week and kind of gave Dell his list of crown jewel races those that he holds at the top. So before we get started, let's go ahead and take a listen to what Mario had to say. Mario, there's, you know, you've won the Indy 500, Daytona 500. You've won at every level that you ever competed in. What are the crown jewels?

What are the races that you feel like are some of the biggest races in the world? Well, I think that's pretty easy. I mean, in NASCAR, it's Daytona, Indy cars, it's Indianapolis. Formula One has to be Monaco. And the sports prototypes got to be Lamont. You've been out there and been competitive and dominated in all those. Actually, they don't give me credit, but I won Lamont in 1995. We won class.

We finished second overall. We don't get credit for that win, but I won Lamont. There you go, man. I love that. I don't think anybody really will dispute that list at all. Maybe you will. But Mike, I guess maybe one place to start is would you add any other races to that list? Well, it kind of depends on where you are and where you're from.

If you're from Australia, the Bathurst 1000 is on your list. If you're in Connecticut, the Spring Sizzler and the Thompson 300, I'm sure, Dave, if you're from, you're from, Vermont, the milk bowl has got to be there. But when you're talking worldwide, yes, it is a pretty short list. Now, originally, and I'm talking in the teams, in the 1900s, we didn't have all these venues. We didn't have a Formula One series. We didn't yet have Lamont. And at the time auto racing was getting going as a major sport, the crown jewels were

Indianapolis, Milwaukee, and Trenton, New Jersey, which were the first paved ovals over one mile. And when Pocono Raceway was designed in the late 1960s, they took one corner from each of those racetracks to make the three turns at Pocono. But yes, on a world scale, first of all, nobody here is going to contradict Mario Andretti. Second of all, as he said, it's pretty obvious. The biggest race in every category certainly are the ones he named. Dave, do you agree with that? Absolutely so, yeah.

I'm not going to start my day by disagreeing with the great Mario dreading. But yeah, if you ask the drivers of those various disciplines, what's the one race, barring championships and everything else, what's the one race that you most want to win in your career? For stock car racers, it's Daytona. For indie car racers, it's the Indy 500. for sports car racers, it's Lamont, and in F1, it's Monaco. I think Mario knocked it out of the park on his first swing, as usual. Absolutely.

And the reason that we are talking about these crown jewels, again, is because we're talking about some of the best race car drivers in the world over the course of history. And when you're talking about crown jewels and that criteria that those drivers have to meet, Dave, do you think that you have to win those crown jewels to be considered one of the very best in the world. I'm not going to say you have to because there's an exception to every rule, but I'm reasonably certain here that in the next few minutes, all of the drivers that we're going to talk about won the big races. Performing on the grandest stage is the greatest test.

You know, Reggie Jackson was a great baseball player, but he was also Mr. October, who did his best work when the most was on the line. And I think we're going to talk about that a lot. great drivers come through with their greatest performance on the grandest stages. And I think that's probably a pretty good indication of what these races mean. Mike, do they have to check those boxes? Ask Tony Stewart, who did not. But is considered one of the greatest, you know, of all time when it comes to certainly IndyCar IndyCar and NASCAR.

And, you know, now he's in drag racing. So you don't have to. but it's certainly a lot easier if you do. And I'll use another baseball analogy. Ernie Banks was one of the finest ballplayers ever. But he never played in the World Series because he played for the hapless Chicago Cubs. And he didn't play in the major media market of New York. So back to Reggie Jackson, it's sure a lot easier to make national headlines

when you're at the biggest venue in the sport, which for them, Yankee Stadium. So sure. It's important. but it's not absolutely essential. Dave, we heard Mike earlier kind of mentioned the different crown jewel races and how it kind of depends on where you're from and what you consider the most important. But would you ever add another crown jewel to the list? I know historically it's really just those four races that we mentioned, but would you

ever want to add another one? I don't feel the urge or really have a desire to add anymore at this point. And I think, honestly, when you're going to have a greatest list, the more exclusive it is, the closer it is to probably being correct. Because when you start worrying about adding one of everything, you end up with none of anything. And, you know, Mike's example was a good one. The Bathurst 1000 is a big race. You know, we could add some of the off-road races that have, you know, that have been very important over the years. They're great events and they're important events.

but I don't know that drivers around the world have on their bucket list. I want to go run the – I want to win the Bathurst 1,000. Again, no deference at all to it. But I think the more exclusive, that greatest of all time list, that important races list is, the more exclusive it is, the better it is. Which one is the greatest of the four, Mike? Wow. Yeah, go ahead, Mike.

Tell everybody which one. That's a hard question. I know. No, it is a fair question. I think in terms of worldwide attention and appeal and recognition, the Indianapolis 500 stands alone. It had a 50-year head start on Monaco. It had a almost 50-year head start on the Daytona 500. and a couple of decades head start on LaMont.

And it's attracted drivers from all over the world and manufacturers from all over the world. Even Ferrari tried the Indy 500. So when they call it the greatest spectacle in racing, they're not underselling it or overselling it, I mean. Absolutely. And obviously, we have already talked a little bit about the Crown Jewel races. but now we've got to talk about the drivers that have raced in them. And Mike and Dave are going to give you their top five drivers coming up next. All right.

So we've talked about the Crown Jules. And now we are going to get into the top five drivers on your list. And I know this is really hard because we have a list of our own, of all the guys that have attempted it, all of the guys, you know, that have raced in all four. Some have only, you know, done three of the races. But Dave, I guess we will start with you. who are your top five drivers, the best to ever do it out there?

Well, my top five list, I've got four real solid and one that I think might, you know, be a little bit debatable in the minds of some. My list is in no particular order. Dan Gurney, Parnelly Jones, A.J. Foyt and Mr. Andretti, who we heard from a few minutes ago. And at the risk of repeating what Mike said a few minutes ago, I think Tony Stewart is a debatable entrant to that list as a fifth man, because of what he's done, you know, indie car champion, NASCAR champion, team owner as well, although that's kind of coming to an end now.

And who knows, you know, before this conversation is very old, he might add an HRA, you know, top fuel winner and champion to his list. It's one more challenge, you know, for him. We know how he was a challenge. He's been very eclectic in an era where being eclectic was pretty difficult to do. Did you list those in order one to five? Is that kind of going to rank on? Not a chance.

Not a chance. I'm not sure I could quite honestly. The debate between Gurney and Parnelli has been going on for decades. The debate between Mario and AJ has been going on for decades. And I've heard a thousand arguments for each one. And they're all very convincing. All right, Mike. It's your turn.

Top five best drivers. Or do you agree? Do you have a little bit different list, a variation from, Dave? I'm going to largely agree with Dave, and I'm not going to rank them because it's really impossible to compare drivers across eras or across disciplines. And the best you can do is put them together in a category. And, you know, somewhere up there in the great speedway in the sky, they're going to sort it out and figure out who's best. I do think Tony Stewart belongs in the conversation. I think Mark Donahue belongs in the conversation. Mark, one,

in what you won the Indy 500. He raced Formula One. He won in NASCAR. So I think, you know, I think certainly he's valid. There are a lot of drivers that didn't get a chance to race across all the different disciplines because that kind of thing just didn't exist in the 50s. Juan Fangio, Mani said, was the greatest driver ever. but he was known primarily for Formula One, as was Airch and Senna.

So you can go across each of the disciplines and say, yes, there are drivers who dabbled in other things, but were known primarily for one thing. And Jimmy Johnson, great NASCAR star, race the 24-hour, the Rolex 24-hour. Jeff Gordon won the Rolex 24-hour, but he was a NASCAR star as well. So there are a lot of drivers that I think by the time you get to, cutting stone at Mount Rushmore are going to kind of fall just short because they didn't participate across all the disciplines. Now you take AJ Foyton, Parnelly Jones, and I think, and Mario, I think there it's really difficult to sort through the three of them because each of

them were known as much for dirt track racing, which is not represented in our top events, as they were for what they did at Indy, Lamont, or even Formula One. AJ didn't raise Formula One. Does that take him down a peg? Well, no, because he's got four Indy triumphs, and he won the 24 hours of Daytona and did everything else. So it's really hard to sort. Dan Gurney, who was my hero growing up and is absolutely in my top four or five,

finished second at Indy twice, finished second. top five in the Daytona 500, one five NASCAR races, excelled in endurance racing, and won in Formula One, the only American to do so in a car of his own design. So, yeah, I think he certainly belongs there,

along with Mario N-A-J. Boy, it's tough. It's really tough. Don't ask me to rack and stack. I can, like Dave, I can give you a list, but don't ask me to put them in order. That's just too tough attack.

Absolutely, and a little bit of stats behind your Dan Gurney and your Mark Donahoo. Gurney second at the Indy 500, first and two class wins for Lamont, fifth in Monaco, and finished fifth in the Daytona 500. So that's certainly an argument for him. Donahoo, first in the Indy 500, fourth in LaMaw, 10th in Monaco, and 35th in the Daytona 500. Another one that's at least on the list of drivers that have completed for is why. Montoya and so I kind of wonder what what are your thoughts about him and what he's done in his career as well. Did a lot of great things.

Truly made his mark in IndyCar, had great endurance racing success as well. Again, I think he makes it to that second step. I'm just not sure I wouldn't put him in the top five. I'd certainly put him in the top ten. Dave, do you agree with that as well? Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, he obviously won races in NASCAR. And I think he was candid enough. Imagine that one. Pablo speaking his mind on anything. I think he was candid enough to give us a really good indication of just how difficult, particularly in this modern era, it is, to transition from one major form of motorsport to another because he readily admitted late in his NASCAR career that it took him a year and a half or two years to figure out how to drive. stock cars, that with all of the mechanical and electronic and aerodynamic aids that he had, that he had benefited from in other forms of racing, when he came to NASCAR where they didn't

accelerate very well, they didn't stop very well, they didn't turn very well, and they didn't corner very well, it took him a long time to figure out how to do it. And I think that's, that may be, you know, that may be when we get around to talking about guys like Kyle Larson and others who might do it in this modern era, tells us just how difficult it is to do. what they're trying to do and just how impressive it is when they succeed. Dave, you also mentioned AJ Foight, I believe, in your top five. And this is a guy that finished first in all three. I don't think he attempted Monaco.

But yeah, just statistically was really wonderful. Is it where you finish in these crown jewel races? Is it attempting it? Is it completing it? Like, what is the determining factor for you when you're looking at driver stats? I think all of those things count for sure. sure, particularly in this modern era of specialization where you're not really allowed to do everything. You're allowed to do one thing and focused on it completely.

You know, AJ was a phenomenon. He was, you know, he was Kyle Larson 50 years ago where, you know, on Monday night he'd be in a dirt track midget and win. And on Tuesday night, he'd be in a dirt track champ car and win. And then on the weekend, he'd be racing Indy or he'd be racing NASCAR or he'd be racing NASCAR or he'd be in the 24 hours of Daytona, and he was a threat to win, if not an outright winner in all of the above. I'm just not sure you're allowed to do that kind of thing anymore, because everything is so important and the schedules are so all-encompassing, and you have to be just laser-focused on that one thing that you do and do well, that it's really difficult to succeed across the wide

venue. Although, again, you know, Kyle Larson's kind of proven me wrong on that. He does pretty well with everything you tries these days. Yeah, and he stays pretty busy throughout the week as well. Guys, we have another person that's been listening in on this conversation, and he is the director of historical content for NASCAR. Ken Martin, we're going to welcome him in, and like I said, he's been listening to your list. And so, Ken, I just kind of want to get your outside perspective. What do you think of Dave and Mike's list?

And would you add anybody in there? Yeah, they've, they've, hit on all of the really strong candidates. There's one name that I'd bring up that is the only driver to win Indy, Lamont, and Monaco, and that's Graham Hill. And you don't think of Graham Hill as a guy, you know, he never drove stock cars, but he did drive stock cars in England. And so Graham Hill was a guy that kind of came to mind of someone that I'd add to the list. And you know, sometimes the guys are strong in one particular discipline or didn't have experience in the other. But I'd like to mention one of the NASCAR drivers that had one of the greatest performances ever.

And that's Donnie Allison. Donnie Allison finished fourth in the Indianapolis 500 and first in the Charlotte Coca-Cola 600 in a span of six days. So back then, Indy was run on Memorial Day, which every day of the week that fell on. And, of course, the Coke 600 was run on Sunday. But Donnie, you know, never ran Formula One and didn't have hardly any experience in sports cars. But when you think about individual performances, Donnie's performance in 1970 was, you know, was extremely strong. But yeah, Kyle Larson certainly is the rising star on this list. And, you know, like Mike,

I'm a gurney fan, love Parnelli, love Mario, AJ. And, you know, those are the names that have stood the test of time. You know, we go back 50, 60 years, and those were the big names then, and they've carried it over to today. So, yeah, you're not going to, I'm not going to argue with any of the names that have been mentioned because they all have their strong attributes. Let me expand on what Ken said on Donnie Allison, because the following year, 1971, he drives the Wood Brothers car at Charlotte, finishes second to his brother Bobby, then goes back to Indianapolis and finishes sixth in the 500.

So he did it, he did it two years in a row. I think the problem we have with modern drivers in this conversation is that Formula One is a closed club. Max for Stoppin is a tremendous talent, but you're not going to see him race hardly at all outside of Formula One. And nobody else can get in. There's 20 drivers. They're contracted for the season. And you can't just show up and race like you can at Charlotte or at Indianapolis or at Lamont. I know you all have mentioned Kyle Larson as a rising star, obviously, and we're going to get to that a little bit more here in just a minute.

But Kyle Larson has himself kind of brought up a guy like Brian Cawson. You think of, you know, you're looking through these lists and you've got guys like Jim Clark who also finished really well. I don't think he ever ran the Daytona 500. I think it was rocking him that he actually attempted as well. But a lot of those guys, you know, were in their career and things got cut short because, you know, they passed away. How many times do you think about those guys and probably what could have been had their careers continue? Dave, you can start with this one. It's so difficult. And I know Mike can speak to this because we share the room at the NASCAR Hall of Fame voting

committee. And the what if, you know, I say all the time on my radio show that if is the most powerful two letters in the English language because if changes everything. If Tim Richmond had lived, How many races and how many championships would he had won? If Brian Closson had lived, what would he have accomplished? There are so many that you can guess, you can estimate, and maybe make a really educated guess, that they would have had great triumphs and multiple championships and maybe even been on our list today.

But what they might have done isn't the same as what they did do. I know we used to have the debate about if David Pearson has had run as many races as Richard Petty, what would he have done? And Pearson said that out loud. If I had run as many as he did, I would have won as many as he did. And Richard's answer was always very short and very succinct. He said, he might have, but I did. And I think there's a difference between might have and did. Mike, do you feel the same way you're laughing and shaking your head? So I feel like that's pretty similar, right? Moody's a broken record. I've heard this. I've heard this so many times. And of course, he's right. Jim Clark might have been the best pure race driver ever.

When Bill France was trying to make NASCAR into a world-respected sanctioning body, he would often invite drivers who ran the 24 hours of Daytona to stay and run the Daytona 500 or Richmond or Rockingham or a few races into the season as their schedules would allow, and France would support that monetarily. So you have drivers. like Innes Ireland and Jim Clark and David Hobbs, all well known on the international stage, and they've each got a handful of starts. But as pointed out, you know, Graham Hill, Jim Clark, these fellows drove the big Ford galaxies on the road race courses of Europe and, you know, and had really, really good success in

them. But Clark won Indy, won in Formula One and was just a tremendously pure talent. it'd be interesting if let's say the dirt track community was represented in this discussion because you know the Knoxville nationals the chili bowl these would be crown jewel events or you know in late models the the snowball derby i mean there's just great races all around america with great stars that you hope are going to get to the kyle larson level and be on a national if not an international stage but i think right now you could you could book Kyle Larson in a wheelbarrow.

And he and Clip Daniels would find a way to win in it. You know, he's that talent. He's got that team. And he's certainly at the peak of his career. And we're just very fortunate to watch it. I love that analogy about the wheelbarrow. Kyle Larson certainly has been impressive. And I'm sure there's a lot of younger generational drivers looking at him right now,

thinking how is he doing all that he's doing? doing going from a dirt track. I mean, high limit. He just won that this week. He's, you know, coming off a win at Sonoma as well. I mean, he can do everything. But that kind of brings up the question. And Ken, we'll get your thoughts on this too. How versatile do you need to be to be considered the great if you're an up-and-coming driver right now? Well, I think, you know, Kyle is touching all the basis. He's, you know, he's excelled it in now. He's excelled in the world of track racing, whether it's wing, non-wing, late model. He's done all of that. And then I think his step into Indy is just another notch that he has put in his belt. He's shown that he can perform there. He's

shown he can go fast. And I think that, you know, hopefully in the future, he'll have the chance to return and really shine. So I think that, you know, all of those elements are important. And then, of course, Kyle has also won at Daytona in the Rolex 24. So he has shown that he can perform in sports cars just as well. I mean, it just depends on the day of the week where Kyle is and what he's doing and doing very well. But one thing I'll think about, too, back in the earlier days in the 60s, there were drivers like Mario that would be in Europe on one day racing at Monza and catch a plane back and run at Terre Haute on dirt. And, you know, it seems like today's drivers have become so specialized. But back then, you know, like I said, Mario.

would hop on a plane just to get back and you know how travel was in those days versus travel today. So I think that, you know, that international travel is something that's very rarely done just because of the significance of each championship and each race. And, you know, one other thing I'll mention is you've got to have a car owner like Rick Hendrick that is, that is over. open to do this. You know, I can't imagine Zach Brown allowing his drivers to jump from series to series. And you can understand why they've made such a huge investment in these drivers with their sponsors that, you know, really, really makes it hard for drivers to cross the aisle. Dave, how enjoyable is it as a broadcaster when racers are so specialized now to see a guy like Kyle Larson venture out and try to be versatile in really everything that he's doing right now? It's really something to see. And it makes, you know, my job on Sirius XM where we're spending, you know, 20 odd hours a week talking to race fans makes the job a whole lot easier because, and I joke with him that for about three weeks there, he programmed my show.

show. I mean, it was either Kyle Larson or the offshoots of Kyle Larson or the controversy surrounding Kyle Larson or the decision concerning Kyle Larson that was pretty much the only story in the sport for a good long time there. You know, he's taking advantage of youthful enthusiasm right now, too. He's still pretty young. He's got a very young family, but a very understanding family that don't mind living in the motor home or don't mind staying home when dad goes racing here. A lot of the guys with the demands of being a full-time professional NASCAR racer for sure, with all the sponsor obligations and the fan obligations and everything else that goes with it, other than just showing up with your helmet and driving on Sunday afternoon,

a lot of guys figure that's enough. And for probably normal people, it is. Kyle Larson has just got that advantage of youth and enthusiasm, where if somebody says, you know, there's a dirt late model race in Moose Jaw, Alaska on Tuesday night at 2 o'clock, in the morning, are you in? He's like, hell yeah, let's go, right? And I'm sure there will come a time in his life where, you know, his kids are going to get to the point where we're tagging along behind mom and dad to the racetrack isn't going to be their goal anymore. They're going to have interests of their own and things get more difficult at that point in life. And maybe he'll

decide them to prioritize a little more to one thing or another. But as of right now, he wants it all. He can do it all. He's been fortunate enough to find somebody that will help him pay for doing at all and more power to them as far as I'm concerned. Do it while you can. Mike, how important is that versatility for you when you're watching drivers out there? And those drivers, I think, that have, you know, the goal of being one of the greatest ever. Yeah, I think it's very, very important. And, of course, we used to have a lot more of them. And one name that comes to mind is Jim Rathman. Jim won the Indy 500 in 1960. He went to Monsa, Italy, won the race of two worlds of indie car drivers against Formula One drivers. He also had success in stock cars. But the way

the sport was structured was much different back then. All of the championships were decided by how many points you could pile up during the season. You want more points? You ran more races in that series. None of the drivers were contracted to a single series as they are now through charter agreements or through way Formula One is operated. So they had a lot more freedom to be able to do what, let's say, a Bubba Pollard does today. He wants to go run a race in Berlin, Wisconsin, and that's the one that pays the most this week. That's where he's going. And a lot of fellows, like I mentioned Bob, Ray Hendrick back in the day, never ran for points

except one year. He would cherry pick and run whatever races paid the best or wherever their sponsors or their manufacturers wanted them to go. So the way you went about racing back in the day was very different than the way you go about it now, which led to a lot more of this cross-pollinization of drivers across different disciplines. You know, hey, Dan Gurney, hey, you're a really good road race driver. Come to Lamont. Oh, what's it pay? Okay, I'm there. So when did that change? I'm just curious about what time period. Does anybody know? Well, it really changed for NASCAR when NASCAR introduced the playoff system. And the championship was not just an accumulation of points.

Yeah, I think that kind of brings us back to the waiver question and all the changes that the fans have been talking about for the last couple of weeks. But we have been talking a lot about Kyle Larson. His names come up quite a bit in this conversation, which has us asking a little bit about the future of the double and who could be the next driver in line to attempt it. That's coming up. So before the break, we're talking about the double, doing the Indy 500 and the Coca-Cola 600. And Dave, you look like you were about to say something about this. I'll go ahead and let you take the floor. It seems like it seems like it's easier to go from the NASCAR side to the Indy car side than vice versa.

Or at least perhaps the NASCAR guys are more willing to do it than vice versa. Although Joseph Newgarden has said some fairly encouraging things about, you know, what he might want to do going on another year or two from now. I don't know how it's going to work. I think, just based on the technology that's available in the two series, that it's easier for a stock car guy to go to IndyCar, where you get more technological help, for lack of a better word, more downforce, more in-car adjustment,

more things that you can do to try and acclimate yourself. It's like I said earlier, when you come from IndyCar to NASCAR, and you climb in maybe for the first time in your life into a race car that doesn't help you do anything, and probably works against you doing a lot of the things that you want to do. That's a very difficult transition. You know, Montoya found that out. I think, you know, Dario Frankeedy, when he came to NASCAR,

he was just starting to get his feet on the ground and figure out what these cars needed. When unfortunately, he got hurt and had to set out for a number of weeks, and basically that just kind of ended the effort right there. I think it can be done. I hope it is done from the IndyCar side to the NASCAR side, instead of NASCAR to Indy all the time. I think it would be lovely to have one of ours and one of theirs trying to do the same thing on Memorial Day Sunday. I can't imagine anything that would energize the motorsports world any more than that.

Yeah, I think we actually heard from Ryan Blaney and Team Penske about just at least conversations that have been had between drivers about doing that. I think fans would absolutely love that. You mentioned that we haven't seen a lot of people do the double in quite some time. 10 years, Kyle Larson finally gets to attempt, but of course we know that the rain just ruined everything on that Memorial Day weekend. But I think there was a lot of enthusiasm around this, not only because I think he is considered one of the best open wheel racers, but a lot of people thought that he actually had a, that the attempt could possibly end in a win. And so, Mike, I'm just kind of wondering with all that we saw from Kyle Larson with the waiver and all of that, do we, do you, do you, do you,

see that other people will try to attempt it. You mentioned Ryan Blaney. My understanding from something Ryan posted is that he and former Australian Supercar star and now IndyCar star for Team Penske, Scott McLaughlin, have lobbied. They're already lobbying Roger for them both to get to do the double. I would assume in the same year and that would give Dave the, you know, all of the crossover possibilities that you could hope for. So I think it's going to take maybe more coordination between India and NASCAR than even we

had this year. But I think the double is a thing that's great for motorsport. And I think it's entirely doable if the two sanctioning bodies agree. I think it's pretty clear from what we saw in Kyle Larson's case that you better make it to the starting line in time to start the Coke's. 600, you know, for this to be able to continue. But sure, why not? It's wonderful for the sport.

And, oh, by the way, it's the Memorial weekend. Why not just go on up to Lime Rock on Monday and run the Trans-ZAM race as well? You know, make it a full weekend across all the major U.S. racing disciplines. Brueel. Would we give it a new name? Would it, the triple? Like, well, we'd have to give it a new name, I feel like. That also brings me to another question, too,

because a lot of people thought that Kyle Larson had a pretty good shot at winning the double, if somebody out there actually did win the double, Dave, where would that rank on your list of all-time motorsports achievements? Got to be number one. I mean, what else could you do that would be more impressive than that in a single day or even in a single season, to do something more impressive than that in two more different, more divergent types of racing vehicles, to be king of the hill in both of those series on the same day, I can't imagine anything that would even come close.

Ken, do you agree with that as well? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Unless someone has a supersonic plane and can go from Monaco to Indy, Charlotte, you know, that might top it. But yeah, to win two, you know, in Indy, we know that's the biggest race of their season. Coke 600 is one of our crown jewel events. And to win them both on the same day would be, you know, it'd be groundbreaking, earth-shattering, front-page news, the lead on every news program. It would be, it would just be monument. mental.

Mike, I would just like to hear you call that if that actually happened. That would have to rank as a lifetime achievement. Yeah, I'd love to, but I think a close second would be winning the Daytona 500 and the Indy 500 in the same year. But of course, that would be all of the pre-race hype leading up to Indy more so than the post race. I want to tell you quickly about a double that you don't know about. 1991. NASCAR modified driver Jeff Fuller got recruited to go down to Bob Jane's Thunderdome in Australia and run one of the NASCAR style races there. I think Ken, I think it was March 11th, but it was 1991. He wins it, flies back to Virginia across the international date line and wins the NASCAR

wheel and modified tour opener, the Dogwood 500 of Martinsville, on the same date. That is pretty cool. And that is also the reason that we have you on this podcast today for awesome stories like that. Dave, do you think, I mean, Kyle Larson obviously could win the double is an up and rising driver. Who else out there kind of stands out? Who else would you say is maybe a rising star? Yeah, well, obviously, you know, New Garden has said good things. We talked about, you know, Ryan Blaney and McLaughlin, that they certainly have interests.

and I also think there might be a way for, and don't take this the wrong way, a more established scar, a guy like Elio Castornevas, who's in the twilight of his career and doesn't have the full-time commitments to any series that a guy like Kyle Larson or McLaughlin or any of them might have,

it would be just on a personal basis, based on personalities alone. I would love to see Spider-Man try and climb the fence at Daytona or at Charlotte and at Indy in the same year. He's a massive fan favorite. I can't even imagine what the feedback and crowd reaction would be to Elio Castornevus trying something like that. Love to see it.

Mike, is there somebody that we're leaving out that we're not thinking of that that is at least a rising star in the sport across the world? Not yet. I guess it's going to depend on who raises their hands. You know, I never, Roger Pansky went to Australia, had a supercar team, spotted this kid Scott McLaughlin. And I remember when McLaughlin was still racing in Australia, Roger was back here.

He says, this kid's going to be really good. We're going to bring him over and run him some in Indy car. It's like, okay. And now he's a star there. And could he drive stock cars? Sure, he drove supercars. Certainly you can drive stock cars. Look at SVG.

So, yeah, there's, the great thing is, is we're always looking for talent and you know you just you just never know where that opportunity is going to present itself certainly it takes car owners and sponsors thank goodness we have them that are willing to make what i heard was a mid-seven figure commitment for kyle larsen to do the double so not an easy thing to pull off um but i'm looking forward to whoever tries it next Are there any rising stars in NASCAR that you, I mean, all of these guys that are coming up are looking at Larson. They all mention him when they're looking at drivers that they watch. Is there somebody in the NASCAR circuit, Dave, that you could see potentially following in Larson's footsteps?

Well, it's really unfair to say this because he's so early in his career. But I look at a kid like Connor Zillish, who like Larson, climbs into a dizzy, array of different types of race cars and runs at the front or near the front almost immediately and wins very soon in whatever he does. You know, Justin Marks, a trackhouse racing has got him under contract. He put the headlock on him almost immediately when he saw what he was doing in in Trans Am and in sports cars. I'm very impressed by him. It's totally unfair to equate him with Kyle Larson or predict that kind of success for anybody on any time table. But we've got these young kids now that really have it in their head that I can do it all,

that I don't have to be a one-hit wonder and just drive one type of race cars. Maybe I can do all of these different things. So for a kid like Conor Zillish, I don't think there's ever been a better time to have those kind of aspirations because it's actually close to becoming a reality now for some of these young people.

I feel like also too, not only is what Larson's doing impacting the younger generation of drivers, but it's also impacting the other NASCAR car drivers around him too. We see them kind of branch out a little bit more. Mike, how have you seen that kind of effect the garage and knowing that drivers can do more? They can, you know, go race on a Wednesday and still show up in the Cup series on Sunday. I think, and I think you're right, Carl. Kyle Larson created that kind of environment.

He convinced his car owner in Cup, Rick Hendrick, who has a tremendous investment in Kyle Larson, that he was a better driver, the more he raced. Prior to that, a lot of teams discouraged their drivers from running even the Saturday races at the cup tracks, much less jumping in a dirt car, you know, hundreds of miles away. But now, with Larson's success, it's become more the norm. And I think it's going to be more up to the car owners than it is the drivers. how much of this opportunity that we see and how much of it that they embrace. It's certainly going to be interesting to follow.

And I think once you get outside of NASCAR, other sanctioning bodies are seeing that the drivers who wheel these cars at 190 miles an hour are Sunday, they're really talented. They're not just stock car drivers. They're racers. and they can climb in just about anything with an appropriate acclamation period and be running right with the front runners. Ken, I know you've been listening a lot to this conversation, and because we have you on the line, and you do know so much as well as Dave and Mike,

is there anything that we're leaving out when we're talking about the best racers out there in the world or the stories or the stats that we've maybe not talked about today? Well, every generation has sort of a role model that the younger drivers look towards. And like in NASCAR, it was Dale Earnhardt, then it was Jeff Gordon, then it was Jimmy Johnson, now it's Kyle Larson. So I think seeing the success of those drivers during their generation really encourage younger drivers to kind of follow that role model.

And now that Kyle, Jimmy, then Kyle have established this crossover ability, I think that will help us a lot in the future to see drivers cross over. And Dave has mentioned several times Justin Marks. You think about if there's a car owner that might say, I want to do the double with my cars, it may be Justin Marks. When you think about Justin's experience in sports car racing, his open-mindedness to any competitor, I think Justin as a car owner may say, you know, that's something that I'd like to do. You know, there are a few guys at Indy that have come and raced in NASCAR like Connor Daly and Catherine Legg. And, you know, is it a possibility that they may try it? Yes, but it is a huge monumental task to get the funding to, you know, to do that.

But, you know, sort of to wrap some of my comments, you know, we have to look at John Andretti and Robbie Gordon and Tony Stewart and Kirk Bush as being the trailblazers who tried to do the double back in the day and all did the double at one point in their career. So I'm appreciative of them, of their example. But, you know, I think that's one of the things that opened the door for Kyle Larson to give it a try. Before we wrap, Mike, I'm going to give you the floor, too, to kind of give your final thoughts on the topic today. Teeing off on where Ken went, you know, before that, decades before that, Curtis Turner tested an indie car. Richard Petty said, I wouldn't sit in one long enough to have my picture made.

Kale Yarborough, Neil Bonnet, Leroy Yarbrough, the Allison brothers, and more. They all tried Indy. So much so, NASCAR, USAC, which sanctioned Indy, passed a rule in 1970 that said no driver in the Indy 500 could be in a race car for 24 hours prior to the race. It wouldn't be safe. So Allison had to drop out of the World 600. He was driving in both places for Roger Penske. So it hasn't always been easy to do this. The last thing I have is driver careers seem to be much shorter now than they were in the 1960s and 70s,

where you could race competitively well into your 50s. So the opportunity we have to see these stars is not as long and not as great as it was when this idea first took hold. So take advantage while we can and look forward to seeing who tries it next. That's a great point. Dave, you want to bring us home? Yeah, I would agree with that. I think we're in a promising or an opportunistic place right now where maybe we don't have to wait a decade before we talk about somebody doing this again.

It's kind of been that way, you know, six, eight, ten years in between efforts. I think Kyle Larson touched a nerve with a lot of people, and obviously it didn't go the way it was supposed to go. We had, you know, the meteorological melee that just made a mess out of everything. It's not always going to be like that. And I think it has lit that spark now, not just with talented drivers, but as we've emphasized, you know, it still takes the green pictures of dead presidents to make it happen. And I think maybe it's touched a nerve with a lot of people saying, wouldn't it be cool?

Wouldn't it be neat? Wouldn't it be amazing if we could pull this off? I'm guessing that it's not going to be a decade before we see another shot. Let's certainly hope not. I think fans want to see more of it. It's healthy for really all of the series. It's healthy for the drivers. for the health of the sport as it continues to grow and as we continue to watch and cover it as media

members. Ken, Mike and Dave, we appreciate your time so much today. What a fun conversation and what insight that you all three were able to give. We appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you. Not only did we ask Mike, Dave, and Ken, who they thought was the best racer in the world, but we also decided to ask the fans on Twitter this week on hashtag don't hold me to it. We asked fans, who's the best all around multi-dimensional racer to ever live? And so we're going to bring this up right now. We've got Dan saying Floyd, Andredi and Stewart hands down, he says. Larson may join them, but he has a ways to go, but he has the ability and the tools to do it. And we've got red menace. I can't think of anyone else. Mario, Mark Donahue, and Dan Gurney,

Perinelli, Jones are the only dirt to F1 and just about everything in between type of drivers. We've also got another Dan giving us an answer here. He says, surprise I haven't seen Al Unser Jr. mentioned as a possibility, an open wheel champion and an IROC champion. And then Jason wrapping us up today, I've got to put my vote on JPM, which is Montoya. He raced and won at every discipline at the highest level. And so certainly we always love to hear from the fans out there. Love to hear your input.

And certainly I think all of our guests today would agree with the fans out there. Be sure to check every week on Twitter again to hashtag, don't hold me to it. And let's go ahead and move on to the white flag. Be sure to check out all the Dirty Moe podcast that are out there this week. We got the tear down with Jordan Bianchi and Jeff Gluck. Actions detrimental, of course, with Denny Hamlin and Jared Allen. The Dale Jr. download this week was a perfect one for our topic today. Mario And Dreddy was on this week.

And just to hear how he came up through racing, all of his stories that he had, those were amazing, between him and Dale. We have Speed Street with Connor Daly and Chase Holden. And then Dirty Mo Doe. I mean, I feel like I'm not the only one to not know what to expect with Iowa Speedway this weekend. So be sure to check in with those guys know what bets to take and what direction this race might actually go on Sunday. Of course, we hope you enjoyed the show. Thanks again for watching. That's going to do it for us on DJD Reloaded this week. We'll see you next Thursday. Check out Dirtymo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram. Thank you.