The Dale Jr. Download - Why 3PM Starts? NASCAR Explains

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

In this episode of DJD Reloaded, we are joined by NASCAR Executive Vice President and Chief Media and Revenue Officer Brian Herbst, who explains how race start times are determined. Learn about the factors influencing these decisions, from broadcast windows and viewership trends to the balance between TV audiences and trackside fans. We also discuss Richard Childress Racing’s penalty appeal, and what it means for the team moving forward. Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi, co-hosts of The Teardown join and explain the nuances of the appeals process and what happens next. Plus, the fans ask Dale Jr. their burning questions in Ask Jr. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The following is a production of Dirtymoe Media. Welcome into another episode of DJD Reloaded. We were going to do something different. No idea that a tradition was going to be started. The racing world is Connor Zillard's oyster. Is he truly the next NASCAR prodigy? Hey, you did a cartwheel down the stands. Holding your cooler, your arm never bent.

It was like watching an Olympian in its pod. While the window of opportunity continues to shrink in the NASCAR playoffs for drivers, Today we're talking about the window of opportunity for racing, especially after Michigan, getting into the nitty-gritty of race start times and the decisions behind them. We've got NASCAR EVP and chief media and revenue officer Brian Herps joining us today to give us a little bit more information there. We're also going to get into RCR and Austin Dillon's penalty appeal process. We've got an update there plus insight from Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi. And of course, it's everybody's favorite segment of the week. Jr. where Dale answers all the most burning questions. As you can tell, it's a pretty

pack show today. So let's get to it. Let's go ahead and bring in NASCAR, EVP, and chief media and revenue officer, Brian Herbs. Brian, first of all, just thanks so much for joining us. And obviously, we've kind of set the stage for what happened at Michigan this weekend and how tough of a decision this might have been. I think a lot of people that watch NASCAR, I think they maybe have an understanding that you have a lot to really balance here, whether it's, you know, broadcast partners, you got teams and fans to really consider in all of this. But how tough of a decision was it to move the race on Sunday in Michigan? Yeah, well, first of all, I appreciate you taking the time this morning. Always happy to have a conversation like this one. I think it's

a fair conversation to have. And one that does, as you kind of are already alluding to, require balancing a lot of different stakeholders and a lot of different interests to make the best, most balanced decision that we can on behalf of the industry. With respect to Michigan in particular, you know, it's always case by case in terms of what situation on the ground looks like. You know, we had weather threatening throughout the day, but wasn't like a complete washout type situation. Like we had at the clash earlier this year or at the Daytona 500 earlier this year. So when you have situations like that, it tends to be hour by hour and you make the best decision that you can for that particular event. We know that if you kind of go back in history, NASCAR has gradually moved away

from kind of these universal start times to opt for those later times. I guess I want to know what that conversation was like and what were the driving factors to make that decision to prefer maybe the later starts. Sure. So I would say, the scheduling process just broadly, just to kind of walk through the cadence of a typical year for us is first we we work through the high level schedule. So what you're starting to see the rollout on now, including the Bowman Gray being announced as the clash event. Obviously, over the weekend is first we put together the schedule for the entire season. So what weekend is that 8,200 going to be on? Obviously, that's pretty easy.

One would a race like Michigan go? what is our championship weekend in a year like this. We obviously had to take a two-week break for the Olympics to accommodate the NBC having the Olympic. So first, it's the schedule itself. So Cup, Xfinity trucks, making sure we know which weekends are associated with which markets and events. After we lock in the weekend schedule, then we start to work on start time. So we're doing that in parallel, I would say, right now, just because we're going to be a weekend schedule, then we start to work on start time. So we're doing that in parallel, I would say, right now. Just because we're downed, I would say, some of the final strokes on the Cup, Xfinity, and Truck Series schedule. And so we're looking at start

times up alongside of that. So with respect to something like Michigan in 2024, we would have set the start time for Michigan, 2024 in Q3, Q4 of 2023. And the factors that we look at there, There's a few different pieces, just to be perfectly transparent. There's first, what are the broadcast windows that are available to us as a sport? So we have a little bit less flexibility on big broadcast windows. So, for instance, if it's a big Fox race on network, if it's a big NBC race on network, a lot of those are the available time slots that the networks have for us. So require a little bit more flexibility on the NASCAR side to accommodate those start times

and take advantage of broadcast networks. with respect to cable, which is a race that we saw, obviously, this weekend on USA with Michigan. We have a little bit more flexibility on the start times for cable. And then just because we tend to perform the best out of any sports and entertainment programming on a typical cable channel for that particular weekend. So we have a little bit more flexibility on the start times. We work with the networks to determine those start times. The networks prefer later start times because they work well in terms of viewership.

I think we talk a lot about 3 p.m. versus 1 p.m. East Coast, and that seems to be kind of the parlance in the industry. What I would say is a 1 p.m. start time. East Coast is a 10 am. start time in the West Coast markets. At 3 p.m. start time, East Coast is a 12 p.m. start time for the Pacific markets. And because we are a national sport with 3 million viewers per week, we have seen over the course of the last five, 10, 15 years, the later that we run, the bigger the draw from viewers your perspective. And it's a meaningful number. Yeah. It sounds like the broadcast is really kind of king and everything. And Dale Jr. mentioned that on his show, that listen, NASCAR is not really in charge of these decisions as much. They're in the conversation, but it's the broadcast

partners that are the ones making the schedule and making those final decisions. But there is a balance, too, right? Because you still have maybe teams and fans, at least them giving their input out there. Is there a balance in those conversations? Is there like a representative to maybe voice some of the concerns that that might not even be in that meeting? For sure. So this is a NASCAR board level discussion and decision. So the discussion that you guys are having on the Dale Jr. download, by the way, I was listening on my run to the Dale Jr. download. So I have a good kind of understanding of the discussion that happened there. And it's a fair one for sure. And there, when Discussions like this happen, there tend to be no perfect answers. These are, we do the best

we can with imperfect scenarios balancing all the different stakeholders that are in the sport. So it's the fans at the track, it's the fans that are watching at home, it's the teams, it's the drivers, it's the sponsors, it's the TV partners. So in any scheduling discussion that we have, either market by market or start times itself, you're talking about six, seven, eight different sets of stakeholders, OEMs, sponsor partners that we take into consideration, whatever, we make a call like that. In terms of like the actual calculus and some of the data that we use to make a decision about start times, then I'll get to Michigan, for instance, as an example, if we have 50,000 people at Michigan that are there that are watching the race on site,

we have 3 million people that are watching a typical NASCAR race at home. The rule of thumb that we use, and this may even be conservative, is for every hour that we start later, that's an extra 5% in terms of viewership. So if we start at 3pm versus 1 p.m., that's about 10%. So 5% per hour, 10% for those two hours. So for a race that we're running at 3 p.m., that draws an average of 3 million viewers, we would expect that race to draw 2.7 million viewers

if we ran it at 1 p.m., blended across different kind of averages. So you're looking at giving up about 300,000 viewers or so. If you run a little bit earlier versus later, now the catch to that, which you guys eloquently pointed out on the podcast, and I've heard in the industry for over the last few years as well, is what if you end up in a situation because you push the race back so far that you don't give yourself a buffer to get the race in? So what we, I think that's a fair critique and something that we're cognizant of for a race like Michigan where there are no lights, you will see us have a little bit of pad in there. That race starting at 2.30 is intentional. A race start time at New Hampshire, Dover, Indianapolis, some of these tracks without lights. That is to give us ourselves a little bit more pat. But those start times are set well in advance. You're talking nine, ten months out. And then we do also have a policy where if the rain is threatening and it is going to be significant rain. Now,

like where that line is, is it 50%, 60%, 80%. That is a day-by-day judgment call. But we do have a policy where if we know it's going to be a really tough day, we can slide the race up. But even that is with significant coordination with our broadcast partners to make sure that we can actually get, we have a window from the broadcast partners to run earlier. So that's like a 24 hours in advance type of call. Were there conversations that were being had during the weekend, knowing what was kind of coming for Michigan? And you kind of touched on this, but how much flexibility did you feel like you had this past weekend? This race, I think, We had calls every day and then there's in a weather situation like we had in Michigan, there's

calls hour by hour with the network. I think we're looking at a situation where it's 50 to 60 percent chance of rain going into the weekend and a lot of like scattered showers. They may hit. They may not. Those are tougher calls for us, just to be completely candid. Easy calls for us are something like the Daytona 500 this year where it was going to be a washout. We made that call really early to move to Monday.

Those are easier calls for the business team and the network team to work around. Tougher calls are the situations that you saw in Michigan this year, or sorry, this weekend, where you don't know if it's going to rain or not. And you're talking about moving networks around, add spots around, getting affiliates potentially in the line if it's a broadcast race to move things around. So that's a little tougher. You've talked a little bit about the balance of the ratings and then also just the fan experience at the track. But where is the line there and kind of how much emphasis do you put on both of those things and how hard would that be to kind of balance that? It's something that we look at every single year.

Again, like I think if you look at our start times from 2021 or 2022, you're going to see more 3 p.m. start times even on those tracks without lights. So like a Michigan probably would have been a 3 p.m. start in 2022. We have seen based on some things that we saw in Dover, for instance, in 2022, that, that, maybe we need to give ourselves a little bit more pat on that. We approach all these situations with an open mind and open heart and listen to kind of fan sentiment and feedback perspective from the industry, teams, drivers, OEMs, sponsors, TV networks, of course, and then we'll try to make the best call going into the next year. But as I think you guys have seen over the last five or ten years, we're not afraid to change,

but we just want to make sure we take as many inputs as we can into the equation before we make those changes. Yeah, it sounds, I was just going to say, it sounds like you're very well-versed and kind of the critiques that are out there. I know Dale kind of asked on his podcast earlier this week. And you mentioned the stakeholders that you're hearing conversations from them. But there are a lot of voices out there, whether it be fans or industry members or even outside noises. Is that voice big enough to spur that change? Again, I would say we don't overreact on a weekend-by-weekend basis. So this is something that will take everything into consideration. the annual scheduling process. What I would say is if we ran every single start time at 1 p.m. to the year, our viewership would be down considerably 10 plus percent for sure. So I'll give you one recent example. We had Indianapolis that had a 1 p.m. start time in 2021. We had a 230 start time the next year. The ratings went up by 19%. It was the same situation, same network, same time of

the year, the only thing that changed was a 90-minute shift. And we went from 2.8 million viewers to 3.3 million viewers. So if we went to 1 p.m. start times just across the board, again, I don't believe this is going to happen. But you'd be looking at viewership declines essentially every single weekend if we move to that type of model. If you look at the NFL, for instance. So I've heard some conversation around the NFL can do it at one can run at 1 p.m. Those are generally their worst performing teams. So no offense to the Carolina Panthers who are playing right down the street, you're going to see a lot of Carolina Panthers at 1 p.m. this year, frankly,

because those are games that are not national games. A typical 1 p.m. game for the NFL does about 15 million viewers. A 4 p.m. game for the NFL will do 24 million viewers. So you're talking about a 60% increase from 1 p.m. to 4 p.m. To be fair, you're getting a lot of like Kansas City Chiefs and Dallas Cowboys in that 4 p.m. slot. But most properties and most networks want that afternoon start time because it optimizes viewership for the sport. And when we think about the big picture kind of health of NASCAR, it's how do we have as many eyeballs and people watching our product, whether it's at home or whether

it is in the stands? And that vehicle, that is television, is still the biggest megaphone for us to get our sport in front of the largest audience. Long-term effects of all. of this, it sounds like you've got the stats and the numbers to really back up these decisions, but there is the argument of that, at least a conditioned start time, do you maybe at least see a benefit in that for the long-term gain for fans and to know exactly what time races start? So they're not looking it up every week. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. So to the extent that we can pattern our start times to have more consistency. So it's not five or six p.m. here, three p.m. here, two p.m. there.

I think that's fair. Again, part of what we are constrained by is that if we are on, especially the broadcast races, the broadcast races are windows that are available to us from the network. So if the Olympics are on, the Olympic trials are on, if there's a particular, like, golf major or something that somebody has rights to, NFL programming, we don't have to worry about as much in terms of conflicts just because NBC is our partner now. It will be our partner in 2025 and they don't have NFL until Sunday night. But there are conflicts that we need to keep in mind, particularly in the broadcast side. But I think it's fair to think about are there ways to have more consistency, broadly speaking, on Stark Times,

not for the non-traditional races like a Bristol night race on Saturday or for a Coke 600 on Memorial Day. But some of like those summer races, I think it's a fair, critique. Yeah, it sounds like there's a lot of moving parts when you're trying to decide all of this. The TV deals, just because we have you on real quickly, the TV deals were a big deal, obviously, this offseason and kind of building up into the season. The new TV deals that we have coming between Amazon and Fox and NBC and all of that, I just am kind of curious to know what was the balance there between just having cable, having it on cable and then also having it on streaming as well. I yeah so I would say in general the media ecosystem last year when we did the deal in

2023 and certainly in 2024 is going through a period of change so when we signed our last deal in 2012 2013 cable was very broadly distributed Netflix was not in the streaming business there was no Disney Plus there was no Macs there was no peacock was no Amazon Prime in terms of streaming so So it was a little bit more simple of an equation the last time our rights came up in 2012, 2013. It was try to maximize the financials, try to do the best you can on the number of broadcast windows, but the health of the cable industry was not under review in 2012, 2013. When we went to market in 2023, we were lucky enough to have a number of suitors for our rights,

but we wanted to make sure that we got the right balance of traditional linear, what we call linear as traditional TV consumption. So that's NBC, FS1, USA, Fox. Those are kind of linear outlets, traditional outlets. We wanted the right balance of linear outlets and then some sort of a digital or streaming solution because we saw younger demos of coming in through the streamers. We saw cable still being a significant vehicle for us, even though the number of cable homes has gone down. Over the last five or six years, NASCAR viewership on cable is actually up over that same five-year horizon, which is important. And it's still a profitable business, cable is, to the network.

So there was NASCAR was important to FS1. NASCAR was important to USA in terms of the business models that they ran around our sport, but we also wanted to make sure there was a balance of digital and streaming opportunities, and that was critical for us. So part of the reason that we wanted an Amazon and a Max to participate in the sport was not just because we thought they'd be great promotional vehicles for NASCAR, but because we wanted to get NASCAR in front of an Amazon Prime customer who's not used to seeing NASCAR, a Max customer who might be watching White Lotus,

but then as NASCAR kind of on the tile. So getting NASCAR into unfamiliar, atypical positions was critical. And then the term of the deal, sorry, the term of the deal was important as well. So the last year, last time we did a 10-year deal, this year we did a seven-year deal, frankly, because if the media environment continues to be going through a period of flux, we wanted the opportunity to get back into market sooner or rather later to adjust to that. So we did our best to balance all the different kind of consumption patterns and vehicles, but I think we ended up in a good spot. Yeah, super interesting to just hear

kind of the conversations that go on in those decisions. And Brian, we appreciate you taking the time this morning to talk with us about this and to just give us a little bit more insight to that conversation. And I know you mentioned the Carolina Panthers. I saw you were a Bills fan. Are you going to be watching the preseason game this weekend? Where do the bills get given away? But yes, I'm a long-suffering. A long-suffering bills fan was born in Buffalo.

They break my heart every January, but I haven't learned my lesson yet. So any type of Bills content that doesn't interfere with NASCAR, I'll be taking in for sure. So I'll be watching. All right. Love that. Thanks so much, Brian. Thanks, everybody. We'll start times.

We're just one of the big topics this week for fans to take in. The other being RCR and Austin Dillon's penalty appeal process. It was denied, but it's not quite over yet. We've got Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi's reaction over that next. We know him from their work on the tear down and, of course, the athletic. Let's welcome in Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi. And I'm going to call you guys the yin-yang of NASCAR. Has anybody ever given you that nickname before?

Not yet. There's been some much ruder nicknames than that, so I'll take that one. That's much nice than what I've been called this week. That's a nice way of putting it. But we're going to talk a little bit more about RCR and the appeals process here in just a minute. But obviously, you guys were on. You heard Brian Herb's comments just about kind of the TV start times, the scheduling, how that's really paralleled together when they're making all of these decisions. I thought the most interesting point, though, is that they said kind of the numbers is that every hour they push it back. There's a 5% increase in viewership. Jeff, what did you think of that? Hey, I mean, it's a compelling argument, right? It's tough to argue with hard data and the numbers.

You know, the point that he makes about, you know, 300,000 people difference in a couple hours. You know, there's lots to be said for that, I'm sure. You know, that said, you know, I don't know. I just think there's got to be still more of a priority, as I said, on the people at the track, if possible, especially in the races with no lights. I appreciate what he said there about, you know, giving themselves more. padding for the tracks with no lights, you know, 30 minute difference compared to what they had been doing. At least that sounds like a positive direction and not even sure I realize that they had done that, right? But, you know, I also think, you know, it's like ultimately is NASCAR a TV sport? Because if it's if it's just about TV and it's sort of like, well, if fans sort of, if they

want to come, great. We're happy to have you. But this is really a TV. And so are you sort of like the live studio audience and you just understand that it's made for TV event and that's really it. And that's fine if so, but I think there should be sort of a bigger understanding of that within the industry or within even the fan language, right? Because it's like we want the at-tracked experience to be so great and we want everybody to come and we want everybody to have a good time and spend the whole day here and spend the weekend here and camp here. But, you know, it's really about TV in the end. So, you know, again, I I'm a realist.

I understand what he's saying and the numbers don't lie there. But it would be nice to see more of an emphasis placed on the people who are really, you know, I think the people that go to the track are the biggest fans, right? Those are your true hardcore fans and they deserve to be treated as well as possible. Jordan, was there anything that Brian said that kind of stood out to you during that conversation? I mean, to Jeff's point and Brian said this,

the numbers are the numbers. And at the end of the day, this is an entertainment thing. And I know it's sports and competition and everything, but this is a business. and it is a bottom line business. And it's really unfortunate for people who attend races and are put in this position where if you go to a race or spend the race weekend there at a racetrack,

you may not see the main event on Sunday because of rain. I don't know how you fix that. I don't know what that balance is. It would be nice if you could, you know, there was a magic way to kind of accommodate everybody where the people at the racetrack you could maybe get an earlier start time. So they could see a race or at least a good part of that race. And you also want to make sure you optimize your sport and put it in the best position

impossible in terms of the start time. It almost seems like they're in conflict with each other, and I don't know what that balance is. I just look at other sports, and the harsh reality is, and it sucks, is often it comes down to what is the best interest of the business, and that often means that TV wins. Yeah, an interesting conversation, and we'll be talking a little bit more about this later in the show, but let's go ahead and move to another current event this week, and that is, of course, RCR, Austin Dillon, this penalty appeal process, and it was, was denied, at least the first one. We know they're probably going to take it to a final appeal. Were we shocked in the least bit that this came back and was denied, Jeff?

I don't know. I wouldn't say shocked, certainly. I mean, I think it was expected that it would be denied, but I definitely thought there was a chance. But then you see the appeals panel's reasoning, and it's like, you know, it's sort of what NASCAR has been saying and why they did this, right? like this is a elite professional highest level sport and there has to be some sort of, you know, bottom line, baseline standard of how you conduct yourself and how you win under that format and under their rules and with their races. So I'm trying to picture how RCR would have gone about this, right? We don't know yet.

We don't know what their argument was. And we may not know this weekend at Daytona, too, because they may want to keep that to the final appeals officer and not talk about it. it yet. But if you're going in and you're like Austin Dylan is saying, you know, because he had kind of hinted, well, I haven't gotten a chance to tell my side of my perspective yet, even if he says, hey, I hit Lugano and then I was coming down the track and I didn't mean to spend any. I was just trying to make contact and I didn't even know he was there or whatever. I think ultimately in it, if that was the argument, the appeals panel would say, well, but, but you did it. Right.

like it happened even if you didn't mean to have it happen it did happen that changed the outcome of the race and so i'm sorry but you know appeal denied like that we don't see enough there to overturn that if they want to look at the rules uh that naskar you know put on this in terms of like the action is detrimental it's such a broad policy it has something has to be left to naskar's discretion you know and officiating and so if naskar's saying hey sorry appeals panel but you have to let us rule and judge how we need to officiate the sport. And this is what covers that. I don't see how you really can argue with that rule. So that takes away from that as well. So it's tough to see a path for them, especially now. But yeah, I mean, it's certainly worth

a try. You never know. Stranger things have happened in the appeals process. But the spotter's penalty was reduced Jordan. Do we agree with that at least? Yeah. I mean, I think three races was probably a little too much. You consider he to the moment, you know, get caught up in things and really did what the spotters say have any influence on anything that Austin Dylan had did in the closing moments of that race. Everything

was happening instantaneous. For the spotter to say that, for Dylan to process that and actually do it, I don't think you could probably, you could make a case that there really wasn't a connection there. This is just somebody on the radio excited, probably said something they shouldn't have said in general. And I think one race is a good way to send a

reminder of, hey, when you're on the radio, you need to be mindful of what you're saying. And even if you don't really mean something you're saying, like, we just can't have that because it's a bad look. And, you know, you never know. So one race is fair. And I think everybody will agree with that. And Jeff's points about the penalties. Let's remember two, NASCAR modified the appeals process a year ago, a little over a year ago, because they had taken a beating consecutively many times in a row in the appeals panel when they would go in there and they would lose. And they have redone it now. And it is much harder. for the offending party to go in there and win a case now than ever before.

And RCR, it was going to be hard for them to really turn that, overturn that with no matter what they said. And again, that proved to be the case. And RCR came out with a statement saying just kind of how disappointed they were with NASCAR's ruling there. That seems understandable that they would be disappointed in this scenario. But for fans that maybe don't know, you mentioned that they might not come out and give details this weekend in Daytona. But what is next for RCR and for NASCAR in this whole process? So there's a final appeals officer. You don't necessarily see this used all the time.

But it's sort of an appeal to the appeal if it didn't go your way. If you win the appeal, NASCAR cannot appeal to the finals appeal officer. But if you lose the appeal, you have the option to do it. It's just one person. And that unlike the panel, which is shifting and it's often, you know, know, a combination of different people each time. The final appeals officer is just the same person each time he serves in that role for several years.

They've gone through a couple since they've had this position. And so he will hear their case again. And I'm not sure exactly when that will take place. We haven't heard yet potentially early next week. So probably not before Daytona. We'll probably still leave Daytona, not knowing for sure whether Dylan will be reinstated. but, you know, they'll do it again and he will issue his final ruling. And then once that's done, there's no more appeals of that.

That's as far as anybody can go. Has anybody ever won the final appeal? Not off the top of my head. I think there's at least, I think there has been at least one or at least some modifications. So, but not recently for sure. And it's important to note too is when you go to this stage, the onus is really put on RCR to show why the original penalty was so unfair. And it's really, and they have to say, hey, this is why NASCAR were stepped where NASCAR really has to prove its case in the first

appeal process. Now the onus really goes to RCR to step forward and say, hey, this, this is why we believe that this is wrong. And it's, it is hard to do. Yeah, it doesn't seem like the, the odds are in their favor moving forward. But we'll see and get more information as, as the weeks go on. And that gets finalized. Another big question. this week, guys, was will NASCAR make a drastic change to the car after Corey LaJoy's flip at Michigan? I don't know if we would call it drastic, but survey says, yes, they are going to make a change here. Jordan, you kind of tweeted about this earlier. So can you give us the details on that change and what to expect in Daytona this weekend?

Yeah, basically, they're going to have, on the right side of the car, they're going to have a window covering to kind of prevent air flow, air from getting in. And, you know, it's little things like this. It's been tested in the wind tunnel. it's been quality control tested. It's just a mechanism to really kind of help ensure that maybe some additional wind doesn't get in the car and help, you know, elevate that car, basically a wind flat, basically, if you will. And so we've seen it on the left side of the car on the on speedway races and now it's going to be on the right side as well. Is that, I mean, it's not drastic, right, Jeff? I mean, I think ultimately what all these things about when you're coming to take off some blowovers and all its stuff, it's a bunch of little things that add up, right?

And it's, I don't think it's one thing that is the difference between keeping these cars on the ground and not. Sure, you know, certainly the roof flaps, stuff like that really help. But it's, it's a lot of things about the design of the car. And really, it's so much, to me, it's so much about the circumstances, right? And that's why the Lejoy one was so weird because typically you'll see, you know, when a flip happens, a car gets out of shape. And then it goes airborne when it gets hit by another car, right? Like somebody, another car comes along and it hits it just enough that maybe, you know, the left front lifts up in the air a little bit. And once that air sucks under it and it makes it take off like a plane and puts it up in the air.

So this one was odd because obviously there was no other car. I mean, he starts spinning and all of a sudden, whoop, he's flipping over. That's something that gets your attention, right? Because that's not just, I mean, spins happen all the time. So if all of a sudden this car is going to flip over on a normal spin, it makes you go, ugh. But that said, I mean, you know, I think these are relatively safe cars. It's certainly probably the safest in the world when you go upside down. I can't think of another.

I mean, think about it, would you rather be upside down strapped into a stock car or an F1 car or an Indy car or a dirt car? I mean, I'd definitely take my chances with the roof over my head, completely strapped in. I mean, you saw in the slow motion of LaJoy's in car where, you know, it doesn't really seem to be too unpleasant. I mean, easy for me to say until all of a sudden the dirt and the grass is like pouring in when he's flipping when he hits the grass. Yeah. So he just flipped his visor down. It was great. Yeah. So casually.

Well, while we both have you on here right now, I called you the ying and yang of now. car. You had a disagreement last week on the tear down that got quite a bit of attention. So if fans out there have not heard it, before we go any further, let's play that for him. You're a very frustrating human. Why? Because I make good points? Like, why? There's nothing I said that was fundamentally wrong. I'd like to read, I'd like to go to Evidence A or whatever, Exhibit A from today in terms of you making good points. We have. have race winner Tyler Reddick quote in the media center about our last episode. I was worried.

That episode, I was thinking you guys were not happy with each other. You were very confused. And then he got butt hurt when you thought he was absolutely crazy. I think 90% of America thought he was crazy. So Mr. I make good points. 90% of America thinks you're crazy. History will look back and they will see that I'm on

the right side of things. All right. So now I'm going to bring in Andrew Curlin, who I hear is going to be acting as bailiff. We're calling this guy's court. I'm not sure who decided to give me a court. I appreciate the gesture, but apparently I'm going to have a final say over your disagreement. So, Andrew. When it comes to justice, there's no one tougher. This is Carla's Court. Well, thank you, Carla. This is the newest segment we have on DJ. AD reloaded, welcome to Carlos Court. It is a very important debate that we've been talking about all week. We've been talking about it on this show, start times. Do we go with the universal and the earlier start time? Or are we moving start times back? Is that the key to growth? So,

we have Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi. Jeff Gluck, he's the voice of the fans. He's for tradition. He's for the early bird. Gets the worm on the other side. It's Jordan Bianchi. He's He's a fan of the later star. Is that the key to growth? We're going to both give you one minute to state your case. And remember, this is a family show, so keep it civil. Jordan, we will start with you. This is a bottom line.

We need to maximize our profits. We need to continue to grow the sport and bring as many eyeballs on the sport as possible. To do that, we need to be before a large national viewing audience on a regular basis, which means we need to start our races later in the afternoon. heck, if we can get in the prime time, I would love to do that as well. Because if we go to earlier start times, we are losing money. And if we are losing money, then we have to start cutting costs other ways, which means we may have to lay people off.

We may have to make some modifications how we do things. If we're going to be losing these millions of dollars in ad revenue from our TV partners, that's going to infect us negatively, and that's going to hurt our bottom line. This is a business at the end of the day. We need to do what's best for business, and what's best for business is later start times. Very nicely done. 41 seconds. Wow. Did it even take the whole minute.

It was a strong argument. What is yours? Back when NASCAR was at its peak in the height of popularity, start times like this were never an issue because it was so compelling and it was so adored by so many millions of people that people would tune in no matter when it was. They didn't care if it was a noon start time. They would find a way to watch it. It was appointment viewing.

This is sort of a band-aid chasing a lost audience and trying to inflate it to make the ratings better, which is how you get a business for sure, but it's not the most fan-friendly move. I remember, you know, you talk about the West Coast fans and it's so early there. I used to live in California watching these races. I used to live in Portland, Oregon, watching these races. Let me tell you, there was nothing better than waking up early on a Sunday morning, watching them, and then you're done by 1 o'clock. You have your whole Sunday. It's amazing. It's one of the most amazing feelings there is. Now you're taking that away from everybody, in my opinion. But this is something that the fan-chat, at-track experience need to be

emphasize start times, help people know when to tune in. Universal start times. That's the bottom line for me. Very nicely done. Just under a minute. Jordan, would you like to rebut? That's great. We can talk about how NASCAR used to be 20 years ago, but that was then and the times have changed significantly. There are much more options now for people in their entertainment dollar. You have streaming. You have all of these other things. You look at every professional sport. They have moved away from start times earlier, you know, for starting games early in the day. Baseball used to be played the World Series, you play in the afternoon. Guess what? They don't do that anymore. Times change. NASCAR has to change with it. Later start times are the way to go. Jeff, I'll give you one last

chance to respond to that. You know, I don't really have much sympathy for the corporate side of this. I'm about the fans who, again, are investing their money, investing their vacation time. And honestly, they're every Sunday time into this sport. This is what makes it go. And if you're not going to respect that, I don't see how much long you can continue long term as a viable Major League sport, you're taking advantage of the people who are really supporting you. You need to do more to help them out. Two compelling arguments. And remember, the name of this segment is Carla's court. Carla, the verdict. I'm friends with both of you. Are you still going to talk to me after I give this? Oh, if I lose, I'm filing an appeal. Oh, no. There are no appeals. Nope. This is it.

No appeals, no final appeals. Oh, man, this is really difficult because I feel like my heart says one thing and my head says another. What do I do? Do I go with my heart or my head? You're the judge. I'm too nice of a judge. I'm always lead with your heart, Carla. This is why I don't know why they gave me a court.

I'm way too nice for stuff like this. I'm going to have to agree with Jordan on this one. My heart, though, is compelling. I'm sorry, Jeff. I'm sorry. My heart, though, does say, like, yeah, it should be about the fans. It should be, you know, more.

more about the experience, more about what's going to cater to those that love NASCAR, and especially those in the industry, right? So many relationships with so many people across that and what that means for their family life and their personal life. The business has changed. I will say everybody, you know, you think of the Super Bowl. You think of college football, national championship. It's played so late. And I hate that living on the East Coast. Like, I hate it so much, but that's just kind of the way the business is. I guess it just brings, it spurs on more questions. They're like, why are we going so late? Does not everybody like to go to bed a little bit earlier? I don't understand this. I know NASCAR, we're not going to, I mean, this weekend is

an exception with a night race. We're not going to go well into the night, most Sundays for NASCAR races. But I do understand it's a business. And the biggest thing, I think, Jordan, to your point, with the money, with the dollars, is we want NASCAR, hopefully to start maybe sharing that revenue so that there can be some type of long-standing tradition for NASCAR to get away from the sponsors and to be able to kind of lean on themselves a little bit more. And the only way I think you can really do that is to probably chase the numbers. But I hate that my heart says that. I'm sorry, Jeff. I didn't get a fair shake in this Jordan appointed court. This court was biased against me. You guys have a TV show you do together. I can invite you on this. Will you come on my

TV show? I'll invite you. Sorry, Jordan. I was actually going to tell her. You're going to be in town in a few weeks. You should have Jeff on. Can I borrow one of your suits, Jordan? Absolutely. Yes. Let me dress you. Yes. No, just rewear. No, rewear the pink one from Daytona. Oh, boy. That one is in the bottom of the hamper somewhere. Don't worry. I got another one for you. Jeff, if it makes you feel better, I, you know,

living in Arizona, that 1 p.m. noon start time, it was fantastic. But as I said on the download, maybe the solution. If you want earlier start times, just move out west. Yeah, move up and route. That's it. All right. That's the solution. Well, guys, I know y'all are both going to be in Daytona and you've got to go here shortly.

Jordan, you said you're already in Daytona, right? I am. I came down earlier in the week. Okay, Jeff, you're going. So before we let you go, I just want to see who are we picking to win the wild card that is Daytona this weekend? So I'm looking at the Ford camp. Look, I almost anticipate a new winner, right? because I think the desperation level to get into the playoffs.

You know, people are looking at Darlington like, you know, if you're 28th in points, you're not going to go win Darlington in all likelihood, right? Like, so this is, this is sort of the shot, even though it's not the regular season finale this year, if I'm outside the playoffs, you know,

if I'm at Chase Briscoe or Justin Haley or Corey LaJoy or whoever, I'm like, this is it. Like, I have to go all out and leave it all out there. If I wreck, I wreck, but I'm going to make every, move I can to get there. So, you know, that could cause a lot of chaos. And the desperation level

might be something that some of the drivers who already locked in don't have necessarily. That said, I still look at manufacturer alliances. I still look at Ford's. I look at the fuel savings that will go on in this, the strategy, the two by two racing, the track position being a factor. So all that said, I'm going to pick Joey Lagano, who led the most laps in the Daytona 500 this year to go back there and have a strong showing and close. it out this time without getting caught in the big one. Jordan? A great pick. I'm going to stay in the Ford camp as well. I'm kind of going to coach this a little bit. I'm just going to say front row motorsports. And that could either be Michael McDowell or Todd Gill.

And both of those guys are really good in drafting races. Todd Gill led the most laps at Atlanta this year. Maybe could have won that race. A little bit of inexperience kind of caught him there at the end. Michael McDowell came within a few hundred feet of winning at Talladega this year. Then obviously he had that crash with Brad Kesslowski. Michael and Todd are both very good in these races. Ford puts a lot of premium on running these races. really well, especially on the teamwork side of things. I think Ford is going to have the advantage, and you look at who's really good in that camp. Both Michael and Todd are really good in these races. They need a win this weekend to get in the playoffs.

I like them. A little bit of a dark horse pick, I would say, with that one, but certainly an interesting storyline for Ford following this weekend, and whatever the case may be on Saturday night in that race, whoever wins. We know it's going to create a lot of storylines, which makes Shell's job a lot easier, right? We love storylines. George's team chaos. All right. Well, thanks, Jeff and Jordan and Andrew. You are also leaving us right now as well, but no worries, because Del Jr. is joining us next. We got Ash Jr. after this. Hey, everybody. It's Dale Jr. and this is the Axe Jr. portion of the show. I'm thankful that you're tuning in. We're having fun today. And even more fun now that you're here. The Ash Jr. portion of the show is brought to you back Xfinity and promoting their high-speed Xfinity mobile. The

customers with Xfinity Mobile get exclusive access to Wi-Fi speeds up to a gig in millions of locations worldwide or nationwide. And with its nationwide coverage, you know that it'll always come through in a clutch, man. Take NASCAR on the go with Xfinity Mobile. And I'm, dude, Xfinity, they're a proud premier partner of NASCAR. But it's true, especially with like, with NASCAR, especially on these days when I know that I've been using a lot of using my phone quite a bit to watch NFL preseason games NASCAR on Monday

because you're in places where you're not at home. You're not on the couch in front of the TV and that's when that great service that Xfinity Mobile provides comes in. Handy is kind of when you're trying to watch all that. on your phone, maybe it's, you know, your daughter's dance class somewhere. It's a good place to watch. I've watched my fair share of NASCAR races at dance recital.

Yeah, go on my sisters. Hey, shout out to the YouTube chat to Ron, who says this is his first time being able to watch live. All right, man. Welcome, Ron. I don't know how many first timers we got in there. Yes, let us know. If you're a first timer, do you put F in the chat? Put F in the chat if you're a first timer,

and I'll show, I'll find someone to shout out. Yeah. I got the first question for you. This is from Jamie. What are your thoughts on the whole Kyle Larson-Max-Vor-Stappin debate that was going on? I think it was last week. Larson said that he could- I love this debate.

Read the quote so we don't misquote Mr. Lawson. He said, I'm the best. Max stinks. That was his question. As I pull up the quote, it was basically that. No, he said,

I'll summarize it. And he basically said most things open-wheel. Max would definitely beat him. but he said he feels pretty good about his chances than anything, close wheel, dirt, you know, that kind of stuff. And so he felt like he was better. He said that in those disciplines. Here, I got it.

There's no way Versappin can get into a sprint car and win the Knoxville Nationals. There's no way he can go win the Chili Bowl. There's no way he can go win a cup race at Bristol. There's probably no way I can go win Formula One race at Monaco, but I think I'd have a better shot at him just because of the car element. Yeah.

And he said, you can quote me on that. Yeah. He said, so therefore I think I'm better. Essentially. Yeah. And then Max's comment. Max came back. Mm-hmm.

Oh, there's a lot of Fs in the chat, by the way. Good. Yeah. So Max came back and had a comment. Yes, he did. And he said... Hold on, I got it. What did Max say?

What do y'all think Max said? I think you'll be a little surprised. I was hoping Max would jerk back. He said, we should not have the debate because everyone is good in their own right. I wouldn't be good in dirt. or maybe if I practice, I don't know. I think at the end of the day, a good racing driver picks up things quite quickly. Yeah.

Oh, that was a little more than I thought he said. So I don't know, Max, I've never met him, but I do follow his career. And I guess you could say if I'm pulling for anybody outside of Daniel Ricardo, I'm pulling for Max. And so I was hoping, and I think Larson's not wrong. I think that Larson's got a point. But I would love to see this battle continue, even verbally. When we look back at some of the cool moments in other scenarios like this, I think back to Race the Champions when Carl Edwards beat Michael Schumacher.

Now, when Michael Schumacher was racing, in my mind, I just put him at the very top of the mountain. I'm in my mind, personally me, I was thinking Michael Schumerichers is the greatest driver in the world today

and then there's the rest of us and then Carl Edwards beat him in the race of champions and I believe that was overseas and so Carl was probably more out of his element than Michael was out of his

even though they were kind of driving a unique discipline that neither one of them spent a ton of time in I do believe that everybody thought that Michael would easily win that race and Carl wins it, and I was so proud of NASCAR in that moment. Because it was a bit of an underdog win, and it's probably one of the coolest things I'd ever

seen Carl Edwards do, a guy that's done a lot of really incredible things in our sport. So, you know, I like this argument. I don't love the argument. I love the two guys going, talking about it. I love the two stars sort of reacting to it. I'm even thankful that Max even had a comment. He could have just ignored it all together and thought it was beneath him.

But I'm glad that, you know, hopefully the fans will demand some resolution. Or maybe there's a way for them to come together and share rides even. Well, how cool would that be to see Kyle Larson tutoring Max in a winged world of outlaw or, you know, sprint car. So that would be awesome. And we've seen the crossovers where, you know, they go to Watkins Glen and a Formula One guy gets in a cup car and a cup driver gets in an F1 car and they ride around and show off.

I'm not so much into that. That did nothing for me anytime any of that happened. I wasn't that excited about that. And maybe that's just me personally, not to drag on anybody that thought that was really cool. I'm sure some race fans really love that, you know, that sort of media opportunity that that is. But I'd love to see, I'd love to see it more on a personal level where,

you know, Max would come over here and Larson could take him to a nondescript location to show him how to race on dirt or show him just to have a little fun playday outside of the media. You know, and Larson's team and Max's team control the content. and they show what they want us to see. And so, you know, that'd be a cool way for it to go down. It'd be amazing if it could be anything of anything connected to high limit, you know, because high limits killing it, right?

Just killing it. And so that would be a big feather in their cap. Anyhow, yeah, great conversation. Bold of Larson, but the dude, you know, believes in his abilities. the YouTube chat, who wins in a race and even cars. And we're seeing a lot of Kyle Larson comments, which I think would make sense given we're a NASCAR show, but it would be awesome to see.

This next question is coming from Evan. What are your thoughts on Sam Mayer going to a Hoss factory team in the Xfinity series next year? I'm excited about it. Sam has, I think Sam in our building has sort of, I don't want to say he's peaked. or he's reached his potential because he's not. I think there's a lot more in Sam.

He's got a lot of maturing still yet to do. And I mean that in a good way. There's a lot of upside in Sam Mayer. He can win races, but he still has some things to clean up. You know, and I think once, you know, he's winning a couple races a year as he is. And I think when he does polish and clean up and get better, he'll double that win total and win more regularly. and I think that there is true talent in there but I just feel like that we as a company

have helped him develop all we can to a point and we've kind of done this for so many years that we're all out of ideas on how to continue that progression right and it's probably better for him to go to a new pasture, new ideas, a new set of eyes on him, new leadership, new people around him that might see other ways to clean him up and help him continue to progress and continue to become the race car driver

he wants to be. I told Sam this. He has, you know, he's young and he's, you know, he gets frustrated, he's motivated, he's a hard, you know, he's, he wants to win and he gets, you know, he's not, He's not a pushover by any means. But never one time did he come in this building and dog the car or complain about his situation with his team or crew chief. I've never had an issue with anybody in his circle, family, or anybody connected to him, you know, hammering on me. or the company to, you know, to get things going. And so, you know, Sam was a bit of a, Sam was a bit of a bright spot when, so we had the,

we had the late-mile stock thing going for a while. And Sam did really well in that. And I saw something in him, I was like, man, you know, he might be better than a lot of people giving credit for. He was really, really young and, you know, just so, out of touch with, you know, where he, where he wanted to go and where he wanted to be. He had a long way to go outside the race car to become this race car driver he wants to be. And he's made a lot of progress.

And, you know, everywhere he went before he came back to us, he had success in the K&N stuff. Did really great. And so, I mean, the progress has been good, but I just feel like that we've sort of hit a plateau. And I think that this will be a great opportunity for him to go gain. the rest of the progression. I think we'll be pulling for him. Do we want to race against him? No.

Is he tough? Yes. Is he going to piss us off? Probably. That's a potential for anybody we're racing against any day. And so all that exists. But I told him also, I said, forever, even next year when you're racing in that car, I forever will be pulling for your success because we are a chapter.

in that book, and I want you to get to the top because I want junior motor sports to have, you know, have that satisfaction of knowing that they helped you get there or they were a part of that. And so, yeah, that's where it is. I think they're getting a good race car driver. I think they'll be happy wherever, you know, with the people he's going to be working with. I think they'll be happy with what he can do. That's a cool perspective coming from a team owner, especially like he's going to be a competitor next year. Yeah, I mean, you know, the way that things work... I respect that.

Well, the way that this... I don't know that everybody in this building feels this way, but... I am used to turnover. I'm used to people coming in here and then leaving and going other places, going to places that they feel like are the next step, the next opportunity. And, you know, until we strive to be a cup team that's the final stop, the final, your final destination, you know, we're always going to be that that part of the process that that stage of a of a of a of your evolution and and so I'm I don't get is I mean there's good there's there's some heartbreaking moments

when some people leave but I don't let it bother me as much anymore because I know that's what this job I know this building's built to do that it's built to give people opportunity and they're not they're not supposed to stay here yeah they're not supposed to live here yeah we got time for one more quick question because we have a very special caller calling in soon. But someone pointed out NASCAR man's tweet. Congratulations. This is the anniversary of your first late model win at Myrtle Beach Speedway today. 1994.

1999. Do you remember that day? What was the emotion? Yeah. It was twin. 50s. I can't remember if we won the first or the second one. But I think we run top five in the second race or the other race.

I remember Kevin Prince, who was a track champion and a really good racer at Myrtle Beach, he went on to run in ASA and a couple of other things as well. But Kevin Prince was catching me. He had been better than me. I was new to the track in my first year. And so he was running me down there in the last couple of laps. I was running out of tire quickly. And I remember him getting to my bumper in the final corner. But if he had another lap, he'd probably been able to move me out of the way.

but we were so thrilled. We were so, so thrilled, and we worked really, really hard to be there every weekend and to compete. And it was a tough little racetrack with a lot of tough competition, but that was a great night. That car's here in the shop, right?

That is not that car. Not the same car. Not the same car. The car that's in the shop that I'm restored and I raced at Florence and a bunch of other racetracks, East Carolina and a couple other racetracks. Gotcha. But we're almost ready for that car,

to get stripped down and start painting, so we're getting kind of close. I've cut some videos on my phone I was going to put out so people can see where we're at. If you want to go to my Instagram and keep an eye on some of my stories there, you might see it. That's cool. Well, that's a good place to N.S. Jr. I saw a lot of great questions in YouTube on Twitter. I will get to those. I've bookmarked them for next week. Thank you all for tuning in. Well, as always, Asch Jr. is always so much fun.

Of course, thanks so much to Dale for answering all the questions and for the fans, sending those in this week at Dirty Mo. we had the tear down and actions detrimental dropping late on Monday because of the rain-delayed Michigan race that went into Monday morning. Tuesday we had door bumper clear and Dale talked about all things Michigan on dirty air and then we had the 1990 Daytona 500 winner Derek Cope on on Wednesday. If you love Cinderella stories and make sure to go back and listen to that one. Just a really great episode there.

Speed Street also dropped Wednesday. We're glad to see Connor back in a full-time ride and he had race. winner Joseph New Garden on and then Dirty Moe Doe. That comes out later today. They'll be previewing Daytona with Steve LaTart so it is a can't miss the wildcard race at Daytona. That's all for DJD reloaded this week. We'll see you next week.