Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - Charles Spencer: Abuse In British Boarding School?

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

Charles Edward Maurice Spencer, 9th Earl Spencer, joins us for a conversation that blends history, legacy, and the power of storytelling. From his experiences as a historian and author to his reflections on family, heritage, and duty, Lord Spencer opens up about the moments that have defined his life. This episode is a journey through centuries of history and personal insight — offering wisdom on leadership, legacy, and the lessons we carry forward. He and Shawn French then pull back the curtain on a dark chapter of British history — the abuse that occurred within elite boarding schools. In this candid and deeply personal conversation, Lord Spencer shares his own experiences, the lasting impact such environments can have, and why speaking out matters now more than ever. We explore: -His first-hand account of life in a British boarding school -The systemic culture that allowed abuse to persist for decades -How trauma shapes — and sometimes strengthens — the course of a life -The responsibility of truth-telling in healing and reform -Why history must record not just triumphs, but the wrongs that demand justice This is more than a conversation about the past — it’s a call to protect the future. Lord Spencer’s story is a testament to the power of breaking silence, confronting uncomfortable truths, and ensuring that history doesn’t repeat itself. Whether you’re a history buff, a lover of great stories, or someone exploring the meaning of legacy in your own life, this conversation will inspire and challenge you to think bigger about your role in the ongoing story. Connect with me : https://link.me/theshawnfrench?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaY2s9TipS1cPaEZZ9h692pnV-rlsO-lzvK6LSFGtkKZ53WvtCAYTKY7lmQ_aem_OY08g381oa759QqTr7iPGA Charles Spencer https://www.instagram.com/charles.earl.spencer/ Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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It was really an appalling place. It was run by a really bad abuser emotionally and sexually and physically. I was talking to somebody who was there who's, I'm 61. He's five years old. And he had the scars on his buttocks from the canings there up for 40 years. It was customary not to really pay attention. You packed your son or daughter off to one of these places. And they were under the control of it could be bad people.

So Charles, an amazing career as a historian, a journalist, and an amazing author. Why don't you talk to us a little bit about your background and what inspired you to bring so many different amazing things to society that, you know, at the core of it is to help people get better and help people in their lives. Well, thank you for framing the question so generously. I think like most of your listeners, I just do my best and make a lot of mistakes along the way. But I come from an incredibly privileged aristocratic background, and I'm well aware of that, always have been. And I think one of the blessings in my life was my mother, who was a bit of an outsider. And my parents got

divorced when I was three years old. So I had two very separate households to look at when I was growing up, both privileged, but my mother lived in a farmhouse on the west coast of Scotland and had a more down-to-earth life. And my father came from this extraordinarily privileged. Spencer family, you know, been living in the house I'm talking to you from for 500 years and all of that. Classic English titled folk, I guess, as a lot of people listening to your podcast will have a view about. But my mother gave me a gift and she said, you have to do things for yourself for self-esteem. And that's been my mantra, really. She had a gift shop in the local town and I used to work there as a store hand. Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your

door, expertly cleaned and folded. So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like tea time you. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you. Said you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you. Hmm. So update on Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rince, it's time to be great. And then I, when I was with my father, you know, the house we live in, Oldthorpe's been open to the public. So I was a tour guide here making three pounds or whatever that is, $4 an uptime.

But it taught me a work ethic and I've always worked really hard. And yeah, I've written a few books and I've written nine, I think, and they take on average three years each. So each one of them is almost like a college degree. And actually, to be brutally honest, I've treated them all like a college degree. The first year I've done very little, just sort of thought about the problem. The second, I've done the research and the third, the actual heavy lifting of writing. But I think the key, and I've tried to give this to my children, is, yeah, you're very, very lucky where you come from.

You're never going to have to worry about a bill or whatever. That's very, very lucky. But you're not going to be happy unless you do something for yourself. Oh, I love that. I love that. And let me ask you a quick question. So are you in the historic Althorpe House right now? Is that where you're at?

I am. I'm in this beautiful room, which used to be my grandmother's sitting room, it was called, and it's now where I work. I write here, and I run the estate. We have an agricultural estate here with some residential properties and things. So I had meetings before I spoke to you today, because I'm a few hours ahead of you, and I can tell you that today is going to be a good day. So I've had meetings with.

the CEO here. So you're about to make a trade based on a friend's text. But which you do you listen to? Is it, we could buy a house in Tulum? Get optioning those options. We could lose everything. Or let's do a little research. Get your head in the trade and make the investment decision that's right for you.

Learn more at finra.org slash trade smart. Dealing with your estate. I've been looking at media projects. And actually, I mean, it's not secret, Sean. I have been diagnosed with ADHD. And so this very eclectic life that I have really suits my rather jumbled up brain. You know, when I was a kid, my family called me buzz

because I was always buzzing around like a busy bee. And so I'm lucky that I have many components to my life. and they all hopefully complement each other. That's actually very interesting. Well, first of all, I feel extremely honored that you're doing this interview in the All Thor Palace. I have, when you mentioned that, I got goosebumps. That's pretty cool. I'm like a part of history, but from a far, from across the ponds.

That's pretty neat for me, selfishly. But you mentioned something about the ADHD and what surprises me, because I also to have that massive, I call it a gift now, right? Before it was always, you know, my source of frustration or anger because, you know, when you get distracted, when you're doing something, somebody with, you know, high levels of ADHD could be very frustrating when we have to shift in the middle of a thought because we don't know if we're going to get that back, right? The thing that really intrigues me is that with the ADHD, you're talking about a three-year process to write. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp.

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That book. That right there is a pretty cool concept for somebody who also shares that same, I guess, disorder in a sense that. It's really hard to focus. How have you been able to stay locked in on something like that for such a long period of time? Well, I think actually the secret is I don't lock. in because I can't and I know that now. I mean, I think I'm classic ADHD. I'm not sure I needed a doctor's note for this.

And my partner, she's called Kat Jarman. She's a leading archaeologist, one of the world's Viking experts, and she's from Norway. And we work so differently. We actually work together sometimes. But she's this absolute textbook, academic, silence, rigor. data, I can go next door to make a cup of coffee and then sort of come around two hours later thinking, oh, I know what I was meant to be doing, and I'm sure you can relate to that. I do.

But what I am terrified of, and I think I went to quite sort of uptight boarding schools, I'm terrified of being late. And we were very badly punished if we were late. And so I have, from a very early age, cobbled together a sort of a way of getting things done on time. And yes, that's meant I had a degree when I was at Oxford. I did know I can tell my tutors now, because I think they're all passed, sadly. But I used to do very little attendance at lectures and all that. But the last six months of the course, I worked really hard.

So when I have to, I can. Day to day, I've come to accept that I'll have a, not only will I be spinning plates, I'll forget that I'm spinning plates. This is fascinating to me because you're describing me. Yes. I mean, good Lord. I mean, you know, obviously I went to school, you know, university out here and at Louisiana State. I played baseball there, you know, play.

in College World Series, you know, it did this, you know, it was a big, number one school in the nation for baseball. But the one thing that I found is I spent very little time in the lecture hall. And it didn't bode well for me. I was always in hot water with the coaches, but for me, I just couldn't sit there. You know, I just couldn't sit there. And we're going to take a quick break to hear from our powered by sponsor. We're proud to announce a partnership between White Sands, Treatment Centers, and the Determined Society. With multiple locations across Florida, Sands provides luxury, top-rated addiction treatment from medical detox and inpatient care to outpatient support and long-term aftercare. Their resort-style campuses, expert clinicians, and holistic

programs create real lasting recovery. Together, we're committed to bringing hope, resources, and healing to those who need it most. White Sands Treatment Centers. Because of the relationship, my family, had with the community here. You know, I have to be, I'm delighted to support good causes or whatever. But when I get involved, I always say I'll do anything except the annual general meeting because that's not going to happen. I'm never going to sit through that. Because I just, I find my brains, it's like a box of fireworks and it's just not, I'm

going to contribute. Give me a project, you know, a fundraiser or something. I'm delighted. But sit through an hour and a half. going through accounts, I'm out. I'm with you on that. It's funny because you said you have a fear of being late. That to me terrifies me.

I don't care if it's for, you know, a birthday party. Obviously, I'll never be late for a show barring any like, you know, fender benders or traffic. But like my team always says, hey, you got a show at, you know, 11. What time are you going to be here? I'll be there at 9.30. Like I just, I don't know if it's the athletic background or if it's, the ADHD, but I'm massively terrified to be late. And I also look at it as a form of disrespect,

you know, and that could be the athletic background. I totally agree with both those. I mean, I'm always very, very early for flights at airports. I haven't got a problem with that. I've always got something to catch up on my computers. It doesn't bother me. And I do find this thing. somebody told me punctuality is the courtesy of kings and it's the ultimate disrespect to be late for people I think because their time matters and it would be very arrogant to think otherwise I get there are people who just cannot get a handle on time and I feel sorry for them a lot of them not trying to be rude but it's very much I am in agony if I'm late for something do you get the anxiety build up when you're late just like oh my

my gosh, I can't really believe. It starts as a flutter in the heart and then it grabs you in the middle of the chest. Yeah. It does. It does. It makes me angry too. It's like, why are we late for this? Like this could be, if we just left 20 minutes earlier, we would be right there on time.

So, man, that's just crazy, you know, never met before. And it just continues to solidify that we're all alike. We all have so many commonalities, you know. Actually, that's one of the reasons I've always been interested. in writing, actually always been interested in history because from what I looked at, which is only the past few hundred years, I'm not looking at ancient history. Humans are the same. If you read a letter from somebody to somebody else in the 17th century, yes, the language is different in a highfaluting way, but the sentiments are the same, whether it's a tragedy

or a triumph or the mundane. People haven't changed very much. And for me, writing as a historian, I'm not, I would never frame myself as an intellectual or an academic. I'm a storyteller. And the reason I like telling stories is because I want to relate to the people involved. And actually one of the things, when I started, I left college and was lucky enough to join the Today Show at NBC. And they were all like, oh, goodness, you're so English. And I said, no, I want to learn about Americans, you know. And so I used to read all of, well, not all, because there's too many, but I used to read a lot of your newspapers.

at the time and try and absorb myself from the culture. Of course, American TV shows have always been huge over here. They're rerunning cheers now, which I always loved, and Frasier and your comedies are so fine. And, you know, just learning their way of Americans. And of course, here we are sitting with so much in common, but they say there's a lot of differences between Americans and British people. But ultimately, you know, you're talking about the common.

nature of man, and I find that very reassuring. What do you find that the biggest differences are between Americans and the British? Well, I think there are differences that others have noticed, which I find less extreme. So people say that the British are more, we're more, I think, because our weather's so terrible, we have a sense of humor that's quite dark. And because you've got to get by. You know, we wake up in the morning and it's the weather's like you have in Seattle, but every day. Oh, goodness gracious.

You know, as opposed to the rest of America. I've been lucky enough. I lived in, I spent a lot of time in Pacific Palisades, the tragic as it is now, but I spent a lot of time Pacific Palisades for a few years. And I've known New York well. I've got a daughter in college there, et cetera. So I know, I do know the States quite well. I've spent many, many, many days there and probably adds up to years.

I find the Americans tend to be more openly patriotic. That's the biggest difference I find. And I think that is not a criticism. It's an admiration. The British tend to not take too many things too seriously. And that's a good thing because it does make for a good sense of humor. But I think we miss out, you know, this sort of, we just assume we're probably on the wrong side of the same.

story as Brits, whether it's in a sports match or politics. And we're too ready to roll over and just say, oh yeah, well, we always get it wrong. And I think that's probably from having been a very important country once and being a fairly minor one now. You know, there was a British Empire, but it's quite a long time ago. And so I think we're used to being a nation that's well past its international sell-by-date. There's lots that's great about Britain, and I'm proud of it. But I think we've come to terms with what we were and what we are now. It's interesting because from my seat, I mean, I can speak for just me and the people in my immediate circle. We admire the fact that the British are more easygoing and, you know, have more of a, excuse me, you know, tempered demeanor in some ways.

So where you think it's something like, hey, it's a pro and a column where I'm like, wow, I wish I could be more like that. Well, actually, do you know, I once had to really look at this subject, the difference between the British and the Americans, because when I was working in London for NBC, they said, oh, could you go and look, there's some minor movie being made and it's about the British and Americans, and maybe you could do a background piece or two about it. And it was a fish called Wander, which nobody knew was going to be this huge Oscar winning hit. And I remember talking to, this is not a name drop because I was there in a professional capacity and he's a lovely man, but I don't know him. I was chatting with Kevin Klein, who won an Oscar actually for that movie about it. And he was saying, you know, it's so weird with you, Brits, you have these sentences and they go on and on and on. And they make sense. The run on, the classic run on that makes sense.

You get chastised in American school for. That's right. Over here, it seems to, you know, I think also the British are terrified of being impolite. So best to keep talking rather than to leave. an embarrassing gap. Yeah, absolutely. So let's dive into the book, a very private school. I mean, that book has been instrumental, as you mentioned, many people are contacting you telling you how it's helped them in their lives. Walk us through that, the premise of the book and what you learned about yourself, even writing it. Yeah, so just to explain the book, it's a childhood memoir about the

time in the early 70s, I was sent to a very prestigious but very flawed boarding school for seven to 13 year old boys. And I was packed off at the age of eight there. Totally normal procedure for people from my background has been for centuries. And it was really an appalling place. And it was run by a man. Your legal department doesn't need to worry. He's gone. But he was a really a bad abuser emotionally and sexually and physically. Lots of beatings. You know, I was talking to somebody who was there who's, I'm 61, he's five years older than me, and he had the scars on his buttocks from the canings there for 40 years.

So that gives you an idea, the whippings they were really, of little boys. You know, these were not young men. We were children, and our parents were sadly, you know, it was customary not to really pay attention. You packed your son or daughter off to one of these places and they were under the control of could be bad people. And the reason I call it a very private school, so yes, it's a private school. But these could thrive very well in days of minor sort of communications. You know, we had one letter home a week which we wrote under supervision. There was no access to a landline telephone. And of course, it was before cell phones were invented.

So we were really captured in this terrible place. And what's been interesting to me is I wrote it and I thought, I never intended to write a book about this, but I just kept a file on my computer and I kept just filling it with random thoughts. It could be really mundane things like what we had to eat at lunchtime on a Friday, through to appalling abuse. And, you know, I was sexually abused there by a female member of staff when I was 11. and that's had huge ramifications on my life ever since.

And essentially it was a sort of hellish place, I think. And I've been in therapy on and off for 30-odd years. And I noticed it just kept coming back to that way more than my parents' divorce or any other issue that had happened to me. And then I started to write this book. And when I talked to people, these were often men. who I hadn't seen for 40, 50 years, they opened up to me with just appalling stories, you know?

And then I remember learning, there was a master who used to beat me up badly, you know, blood and stuff. And I came across this guy and I said, oh, I remember your brother at the school. And he said, yeah, he died. And he died because of what they did to him at that school. It had got to him emotionally and he gave up wanting to live. And I realized, actually,

because I've written a few books before, that it was really my job to put this down. And what's happened, you know, it came out March last year is that there is barely a day goes by without somebody coming up to me. A woman came up to me this morning and shook my hand and she said,

I wanted to thank you. She said, it's a horrifying book, but fascinating. And then I've heard from, I'll call them boys, because I knew them as boys, who have come to me out of nowhere. A guy wrote to me last month. And I remember him and he was bullied at the school.

And he told me that he had been a drug addict for the last 40 years, but had come out of it because partly because of the book, but also his parents had died and he had blamed them for never paying attention. He had told them how bad it was. And so it was a personal book about a very bleak time in my life. but I didn't want it to be a pity tale. I wanted it to shine a light on something, which I think is, well, I think my message,

I know you like to know what people are thinking when they write this, my message is that always look after your kids. You know, my parents, the other parents, thought, well, this is a fancy school. Everything is going to be fine here because, you know, it's got a reputation. But it was populated by deviance in the start. and we had no one to tell. And interestingly, you know, if you talk, I have children,

and children accept things as normal, which they shouldn't. We didn't tell our parents about it. We didn't know how to. We hadn't got those relationships because once you're packed off away from school at a young age, there is a cord that's broken. And I said actually that the way we survived, the only way we could survive the brutality of that place was to let a small but important part of us.

us die. And so I know that I will never be probably what I would have been if I hadn't gone to that school, but you just have to accept that and move on, actually. You know, it's a cultural thing, right? Like, I'm listening to it because you said, it's a normal thing to pack the young boys and young girls off and send them to boarding school. It's something over there in the UK that happens very frequently and very seldomly here in the United States. And like if you look at it, like I, I know someone that sent their kid to boarding school. I'm like, wow, like, how do you do that?

Like, I don't know if I could, you know, not see my three babies for, you know, a whole school year or whatever the deal is. And you succumb, you submit to the control, right, of whoever is running that school and not knowing what's going on with your children. But I look at that as a cultural difference, right? It's so normal there. And I don't, you know, when you look back at, you know, your parents and things like that, they're just doing what they feel as normal and not really knowing what could possibly happen.

But at the end of the day, you and so many children were impacted. That's just so interesting and also terrifying. I agree. Do you know, I actually think it explains an enormous amount about the caricature, really, of the stiff upper lip Brit, you know, because if you're sent away at that age and you have to survive, look, there are some schools that are good

and I would say a lot fewer parents send their children away now than when I was young. But I think you sort of courtarize these young children's emotions so that they can survive. And of course you're going to get, you're going to reap the rewards from that. and I look at a lot of our politicians in the past in England who went to these schools, and it really did mess them up.

I mean, even the greatest, such as Winston Churchill, you know, he was very badly treated at his boarding school, and he had a family nanny who rescued him because he had terrible wounds on him from the masters and things when he was a little kid. But I do think it stems from what I looked at. It stems from something I touched on earlier, which. which is the British Empire. So if you have an empire and you want it to thrive, why not take the kids from what would be perceived as a ruling class

and break them emotionally? And then you can use them overseas. You're not going to be homesick if you're running a colony in a colonial outfit in India or Canada or Australia if you were sent away from home at 8 and had those ties broken. And I think it's a function of the British Empire that they needed lawyers, judges, soldiers, governors to go out and hold the fort. It's interesting because there's a fine line, right, of kids being, you want your children to be independent, right? Like, I look at, like, my kids, like, I think sometimes that me and my wife are too, I don't want to say helicopter, but like that's a big, you know, thing in the States, helicopter parent, right?

And it's like, we try not to be, but at the same time, you want to save them from, you know, certain things, but you also want them to learn. But there's a certain bond, right, that's created to your point that is broken when you, when you go away at eight years old. But it was also culturally speaking, right? It was ingrained because that was just what had to be done. Yes. and there were very severe cases. So I used to have a literary agent who looked after me and his parents were serving in India

and he was packed off to boarding school age three from India and didn't see them until he was 18. And he hated them. He never forgave them. You know, what is the point of having kids? So I agree with you. I'm more of a helicopter parent. I think somewhere in the middle,

you do want to bring resilience to your kids, but you don't need to get them packed off to live with strangers to do that. And actually, I would say, you know, you could drop, a lot of the people I spoke to said that, yeah, they recognized all the downsides that I mentioned, but they could have been dropped anywhere in the world and they had have survived because they had done it

in the worst possible circumstances. And they talked about their kids and how, I mean, I'm afraid to say, how pampered they can be. And, but I think I'd rather be pampered than abused. I think that's probably that. 1,000%.

How is that, how is that, I guess growing up in that school, the system, you know, propelled you to be as successful as you are and the things that you're doing because you have to display some massive amounts

of determination and resilience. Well, thank you. I mean, I'm well aware, by the way, Sean, in the range of people you've had on this show, I come very low down in the list of achievements. But what I have done in my life, the things I have done in my life, I would say, I'm very stubborn. And I took a view.

I couldn't really, if you had asked me what was wrong with that school, I could have put it in childish terms when I was there, you know, so and so scary or I'm terrified. You know, it would have been very basic. but I took a view very early on that this was a very, very dangerous environment. And I was very outgoing and bubbly and all of that. But I closed down and just looked. And it's very interesting because the headmaster who was the ringleader of all the appalling abuse, I looked, my parents had kept the Termley reports he used to write about each kid.

And he said several times in the 15 reports that he did. for my five years there, Charles is watching us very closely. And I like to think I was. And I like to think I was, I mean, I've been blessed along with ADHD with a wonderful memory. And I was noting stuff down. And I was very resilient, luckily for me. But it did lead to real problems. I mentioned this master who used to rough me up badly.

And he was in the wrong school. I don't know what he was doing. It was an incredibly privileged school, only 75 students there. And for England, most of them had household names from banking or business or aristocratic dynasties. And I don't know if he was punishing himself by going to this place full of privilege, but he was a self-professed Marxist. And he really didn't like me. But I was determined not to give in.

I could never win, but I never gave in, and he hated it. And that's why he used to hit me. He had this very nasty trick. He had this big signet ring on his hand. And being hit by the masters across the head was quite normal then. But he used to do it and roll his hand at the last second and catch me with the metal of his ring and cut my scalp. And, you know, I knew what was coming, but I never, ever, ever gave in. And maybe that resilience that came from.

from those circumstances has helped me a bit. You know, as I'm listening and diving into those scenarios, it's every child or every human being has a point in their childhood that shapes them to a point where they will function as adults, right? And as horrific as those moments were, it's really prepared you to stay steadfast in your journey and to create the things that you're creating because without that, you know, maybe you, maybe you do lay off the gas.

Maybe you don't do what you're doing now, right? You've been through a lot of adversity. I feel very lucky, you know, there are, sorry, I feel very lucky because there are, there are a lot of examples over here of people who come from my background where the, the child does nothing and that doesn't go well, you know, it's going to be drugs or too much alcohol or whatever. And yes, I've had a, you know, there's lots of things I regret in my life. But I think having a focus, or several focuses, as you and I understand with ADHD,

but having things to concentrate on and try and do well is the key to life, I think. And that's something I've tried to impart to my kids too. I don't care. Actually, I do remember my very first day at the senior school I went to was Eaton, Eaton College, which is, you know, one of the most historic ones over here, and there have been dozens of prime ministers come out of there. But I remember the headmaster, our first day, he was tough, but not nasty. And he said, there's a lot of you are not going to see till your final day in five years

time, probably, because it's such a big school. But he said, the thing that breaks my heart most is when you bring the printed out list of things you've done, and it's short. he said, I want to see a long list. And he said, I don't care. You can be the best in the school at collecting butterflies. It doesn't matter. I want you to be the best at something.

And that's a very good lesson for a 13-year-old. I think so, too. You know, it just brings, like, the word focus, right? Being in that environment gives you the ability, you know, I guess, as a consequence, to be very focused on some things. and I think when we look back at our life or look back at a certain point in our life, we want to have a list of things that we've accomplished, that we've become great at, and most importantly, how we've helped people.

Yes. There's several, I've been on a course, actually, in the United States, of a sort of intensive psychotherapy, and it was in California. and one of the scenarios we had to do as part of the course was to, they took us to a churchyard and had us lie down on a grave. And then the others filed past and we had to think about what would we want the people we love to think about us once we were dead. And that sounds very macabre and weird.

But actually, it's about legible. It's about what you leave behind. And even as I mentioned, my partner is a Viking expert. Legacy was really what they were thinking about, you know, to be remembered if you were a man, to be remembered as a great warrior or a great leader or whatever. And so what are we, I suppose, what do we want to be remembered as? You know, my father died a third of a century ago, you know, in terms of the whole of time. But every thought I have of him is of a kind and decent man.

And that's a very good example to have. And when I meet people around here, you know, we've lived in this part of England for a long time, 70 miles north of London and people knew him. But it's so lovely for me when my memory of him coincides with people who just met him because he was doing something in the community or whatever. they've met him. And I think it's one thing to have your own idea of what your legacy would be, but to hear other people talk about it with respect. That goes a long way, I think. I love that. You know, we call that here the obituary exercise. You know, what would your obituary say? And I think it at some point in America, we go, oh my God, that's super morbid. Like, why are you going there? But I think it's also a good gauge because you be objectively

say, hey, this is where I'm at. Am I accomplishing what I want to accomplish? And am I leaving the L word behind? And as you were speaking, and then you said it out loud, you're speaking the same word I'm thinking, legacy. It's all about that, right? So I don't think that exercise is more, but we want to know what impact we're leaving in this world.

And I do know, and I truly believe that we are all put here to make an impact on society and on people. So, you know, you got to evaluate how you're doing that. if you're doing an effective job at it or not. I think so. And I think, you know, the older I get, so I'm 61, so I've lost a lot of, you know, friends and family over the years, as is going to happen somewhat of my age.

You become much more realistic about death. So it's not, of course, it's not something I want to rush towards, but it could happen today. It could happen in 30 years, but it's going to happen. And you become much more accepting. I remember as a child hearing about, you know, my grandparents dying, and it was like it was the end of the world, and that's natural. And so it's the same as our own age, you know, when I was your age,

and I thought as someone at 61, I thought, my goodness, well, I better help them across the road almost, you know. But now I'm there, I'm thinking, actually, you know. Actually, I can walk around to street myself. But we are the victims of a very, all humans, I think, are the victims of a very tight, self-absorbed perspective. And so if we can step outside of that and think of our legacy and realize that we're just flying through this life, you know, it really is at breakneck speed, then I think you're right. You know, let's think about the things we haven't done. You know, I've taken up, I'm learning Italian now. I'm not really sure why, but I just wanted a new challenge.

And I like going to Italy, but luckily, you know, we speak a language, you and I, which goes a long way around the world. But I just thought, well, why not? And I gave up alcohol. I don't believe I had a problem with it. But I just thought, well, I don't need it. And, you know, there's lots of things I've done recently where I just thought, no, I just don't want to just trundle along as I have done, because I want to keep improving.

It's described. I mean, I gave up alcohol, too. I never had a problem with it, but, you know, there's certain points of my life where I probably drank too much of it. But, you know, it doesn't impact my life in a positive manner. So if it doesn't help me move along and help people, then I'm, then I'm out. It doesn't matter what it is. Yeah, and I envy you. So I toyed with it for ages giving it up and I'd sort of go, oh, I'm going to give it up for 100 days. And I found that really not a problem, you know. But then when I go back on, I thought, well, why did I bother? It's not that great. And I also think, I mean, I can't speak for you. But with ADHD, we're quite impulsive people anyway. And do we really need alcohol to make us more impulsive? I'm not sure we do. You know, I've never connected the two, but yeah, two plus two does equal four there.

Oh, I've always says, like, you're super impulsive. You're super impulsive. I'm like, no, I'm just a visionary. I'm a dreamer and I'm going to take action. But yeah, man, that is part of it, being impulsive. And to your point, begs the question, do we really need alcohol if we're already impulsive? Well, I didn't. And it's been really, I mean, it's such a, look, all of the, all of the annoyingly true things are true, such as better sleep and all that something.

But just, actually, I take what I try and do now, because I, you know, I've got that all. awful thing going where I'm so proud of having turned that corner that I look at other people. So I used to play cards once a month with old friends and for years, decades. And it was a treat. But I suddenly realized, actually, are we here for the cards or the alcohol? And then the answer became clearer and clearer. And then when I start drinking, I love these guys, you know, but I had watched them. and it wasn't pretty.

And I was thinking, gosh, I used to be like this, you know, and I don't need it. You start to see, like, when you remove a certain aspect of yourself that you're doing along with a group, and you cease to do it, and they continue, you can see things for what they are, and you'll be surprised on how far out of alignment that you become with these people. I agree. And, you know, you do lose a few. friends when you give up drinking, but you know, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's a pity, but it doesn't matter. Yeah, it's sad to lose friends like that because I have, you know, but at the end of the

day, okay, if I'm going to lose that friendship, are they friends or are they drinking buddies? It's true. And do you know, it's obviously there's an element of addiction even in social drinking or a little bit more than that. And there's no, there are not many good addictions, really. Maybe exercise is a good one. Maybe. Even that could kill you if you do it too much. You know, that's true. You do see people in the gym who are clearly on the wrong side of healthy, but from overdoing it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. As we land the plane, I want to ask you, aren't you doing a podcast? You're doing a podcast now. Yeah, I was doing, I was doing one and it was such fun. By the way, aren't they great? They're so fun and meeting people.

But I was doing it, that's how I met my partner, actually, Kat, the professor. And I was doing it with a guy who's not a household name in the States, but he's a very unusual guy because he was a pop star and then a priest. And now he's been on everything from our equivalent of dancing with the stars to everything. He's a super guy and he's a friend of mine. So we had a really good fun doing it. But we set ourselves ridiculous podcasts. So each of the three of us had to become a world expert in a new subject within a week. And we're all busy people.

And so we did it for two years. And then we thought, we just can't do it anymore. And I miss it. We'll do something else, but maybe once a month or something. But people listen to podcasts. And of course, you know, there are a lot of work, aren't they? You had to prepare properly. And again, I think you're the same as me.

It's a courtesy to your listener that you want to give them something that's, thought through a bit. Well, it's such a delicate dance too, Charles, right? Because you want to make sure that the guest is happy and comfortable. You want to make sure that you hit the points that they want to cover and not for your own selfish reasons. It is an art. A conversation is an art form. And I take great pride in having a conversational approach because that's what the audience seems to really be gravitating towards and really, taking in and valuing because there's too many shows out there and you know this. You know this. There's too many shows out there that are just trying to say something to get, you know,

views or listens or to go viral or to cause a stir. That's really not what we do here. And for those reasons that we don't do that here, yes, it takes an extreme amount of preparation on my side because I have to be, my responsibility to my guest and to my listeners is to craft an amazing conversation that brings massive amounts of value. Yes, and I can feel that. And that's actually why I said, yes. I mean, I don't, to be honest, I don't, are not often a guest on podcast because of the problems you flagged up there. But I could see what you're doing is really meaningful and the intention and the process are spot on. So I've been delighted to be your guest today. And for those listening, I would say,

You haven't looked at a single note, which is very lovely, and we've been able to just have a normal chat. Yeah, I just, you know, it's funny because I believe in having an outline in my mind, right? And I believe in, you know, maybe, okay, the conversation can go, you know, behind door number one, two, or three. And it's not up to me to judge it. It's up to me to craft the authentic conversation. And that's why, to your point, and I appreciate you noticing, you know, I'm not looking.

looking down at a note card. So here's my hands audience. There's no note cards. There's no nothing. There's a cup of coffee down here in an amazing conversation between two men. Like that's it. Right. And I feel as though those open dialogues are, I think, is going to be the conversations here in the near future that that produce the best impact for society. That's just my hope, I guess. No, I agree. I think that's really honorable. And true, so it's good. So as we start coming down to the tail end of the interview, I want to ask you, what's next, man? Well, right now, I actually, to be honest, I've gone through a lot of stuff recently, and I've put things on hold.

And at the moment, I'm sort of sifting through, I'm going to be making a documentary on the boarding school situation. Ooh. Nice. I'm looking forward to doing that. I think it needs to be done. And then I've got, I'm going to be writing again because that's sort of what I do. But I don't know yet what the subject is. I've got millions of ideas.

And I don't know, you know, what happens with me is I have ideas for a book. And I think, oh, yeah, that's the one. That's the one. This is probably ADHD. And then after about two days, I think, well, what was that going to be about? And you need to have that process go on. If it stays with me as a really good idea for a week or two, then I will embark on it because it is, it has to hold you. Well, if it doesn't hold you, it's not going to hold the reader, is it?

So there's the hat. Yeah, because if it doesn't hold you, you can't intelligently write on it or speak on it or be invested in it, right? And it's funny because, again, again, it's, I'm hearing things you say. It's like, we are so identical in so many areas. If it doesn't hold me for a week, then I'm out of it. on the idea. Like I, you know, because we have to do that, you and I. Because if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we are impulsive in our career, that, that could be, that could be really bad. That could be really bad. It could be really bad and wasting everyone's time. And as, you know, you and I are both, I,

I, we're both busy and we both, I'm, I'm, as I keep saying ahead of you in terms of years, but you, you find as she, as you get older, you think, no, no, no, I haven't got time for. I want to do this, I want to do this. And, you know, I talked to a guy who I know locally who runs homes for seniors. And I said to him, so what age do I want to die? And he said, you want to, you know, and I hope I'm not going to offend older listeners, but he said, to be honest, things go very wrong after 85 in most cases. And he said to me, do everything you really, really want to do by 75 because the wheels can

come off very fast. So, you know, I, that's a, that's a scale I'm looking at, and I just want to keep going. And not just for the sake of going, but I want to keep going in a meaningful way. That's my objective. Purpose is massive. And, you know, I mean, I'm sitting here at 46, turning 47 this October. And I'm like, man, I got a lot of time, but do I? Right? We never know. That's what's scary as a parent and a husband is, you know, staying healthy and making sure that you're around. And plus, I want to see my kids grow up. I want to see my grandchildren. I want to live this life. I feel that there's a lot for me to do. So I just really appreciate you. And I'm, I'm excited to see the documentary. I'm going to have to keep in touch with Tris and make sure that

I know when that thing's coming out because I want to support it for sure. We can always hop back on too when that comes out if you'd like and we can talk about it and promote it. I love that, Sean. That would be really nice to square much fun. And who knows, maybe I'll get out over across the pond and You know, come take a tour. Well, let me know. You must come up here. It's a part of England that hasn't changed much for several hundred years. So I'd love to show you it.

I would love to see it. I would love to see it. One last question. So the show is called The Determined Society, right? Because we're going through our own stories throughout our life, right? Whether there's stories that are made up in our own minds or actual truth. But we all have to have this type of determination that leads us to our next thing and gets us through those tough moments. So in your difference, how do you define true determination?

I think true determination needs, you have to be sure that you've identified what matters first and then just hold onto it for dear life because don't be buffeted by things going on around you, people around you. Once you've established what's really of core importance to you and hopefully the world in a minor way, stick with it. So that's the determination It has to, there's no point in being determined about something that doesn't matter. Very well said, sir. Very well said. Well, I appreciate you so much for the audience that is watching and listening.

Go scoop up the book, a very private school. If you are headed to London, a little north of London over the summer, the Althorp House is available for touring. So check it out. And again, Charles, thank you so much for coming on. I had an incredible time with you and looking forward to seeing more from you and doing more with you. Thank you, Sean. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Oh, absolutely, man. Absolutely. And for the audience, share this episode with someone you know, love and trust that will get a lot of value out of it. And until next time, stay determined.

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