Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - Chasing Evil: Voices of the Dead with John Edward & Bob Hilland

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

What happens when an FBI agent chasing justice meets a world-famous psychic? You get one of the most unique—and shocking—crime-fighting duos in history. John Edward, celebrated psychic medium, and Bob Hilland, veteran FBI agent, join Shawn French to discuss their new book Chasing Evil. Together, they share the extraordinary true story of how their unlikely collaboration helped shed new light on decades-old cold cases. From a small-town disappearance to high-profile investigations, Bob went from skeptic to believer after watching John uncover details that no one else could possibly know. The two reveal how this partnership worked in secret for years, the pushback they faced from law enforcement, and the deeply personal sacrifices that came with pursuing justice. This episode covers: -How a Jersey cold case brought an FBI agent and psychic medium together -John Edward’s hidden work with law enforcement (and why it was kept secret) -The personal cost of chasing justice: family, sacrifice, and scars -How skepticism turned into trust—and why “coincidence” wasn’t an option -The chilling truths behind Chasing Evil and why everyone should read it If you’re fascinated by true crime, paranormal connections, or the power of determination, this conversation will blow your mind. Connect with me : https://link.me/theshawnfrench?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaY2s9TipS1cPaEZZ9h692pnV-rlsO-lzvK6LSFGtkKZ53WvtCAYTKY7lmQ_aem_OY08g381oa759QqTr7iPGA John Edward https://www.instagram.com/psychicmediumje/ Robert Hilland https://us.macmillan.com/author/roberthilland Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You're about to make a trade. Which you do you listen to? Is it get optioning those options? Or let's do a little research. Learn more at finra.org slash trade smart. John Smith came in one day, reported his wife missing. They couldn't bring the case together. There was no bodies, no physical evidence, and it went cold.

When I first went to John, I thought he was a con. I felt how can people be stupid to believe such a thing? John's assistant instructed me to bring items that belong to whoever the victim was in this case. I'm a guy who deals in logic and evidence. John had provided a lot of information that was very relevant to the case. And even information at that time, we had not yet known about the case. How this man could know the specific details that he was providing me didn't make sense to me.

How did Bob Hillen find that person this is one of the ways? Bob represents those people who don't have a belief system. So for anybody that has that person in their lives that you want to get them to think about, is there a survival of consciousness, paranormal, supernatural. Chasing evil is a great way to get them to kind of walk through that door without them realizing they're walking through that door. All right, guys, I got a doozy for you today. We have John Edward and Bob Hillard, co-authors of Chasing Evil. And I'm going to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, this is a real page turner. For those of you know me very well or may not know, I'm not a massive reader. But when I

open this book, I literally cannot put it down. So, guys, welcome to the show. Excited to talk about this. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Wow. This thing has been a long time in the making, guys. Right. I mean, you know, this trust can be for John or Bob. Actually, Bob, let's start with you. You know, this case, this cold case that would just kind of haunted the community. But you had interactions with this gentleman early on when they brought him in for questions. So why don't you start off your experience there and how it catapulted into this massive thing that you guys are creating together? Yeah. So I started my career many years ago in the 90s. I was a police officer in this small

town in Jersey. And this man by name of John Smith came in one day, reported his wife missing. I was not involved in the case. I was a young cop. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with what's at. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption.

It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.com. But certainly was aware that this woman had disappeared. The investigators at the time ran into ground every lead and they learned that the same guy had been married to another woman who disappeared many years earlier. And despite the efforts of many capable investigators over, at that point, it was over 20 years, they couldn't bring the case together.

There was no bodies, no physical evidence, and it went cold. At 97, I left and I joined the Bureau. I'm in New York office working cold case homicides, organized crime cases, gang cases, that kind of thing. And I happened to bump into one of the old detectives I used to work with. literally sitting at his desk, I see the binders on this case. And I asked him what happened to this case. And he said, it was dead in the water. So because of my connection, I decided to start investigating it.

So that was my entry into the investigation. And it's interesting. So for the I says to know, John Edward, you know, was previously crossing over. He's an author, you know, very big name in this industry. And you were doing readings on air, right? And that's how Bob really kind of heard about you and really push back on that, on that fact, though. So, you know, eventually you guys started working together secretly. Hey, business owners.

We know you know the importance of maximizing every dollar. With the Delta Sky Miles Reserve Business American Express card, you can make your expenses work just as hard as you. From afternoon coffee runs to stocking office supplies and even team dinners, you can earn miles on all your business expenses. Plus, he can earn 125,000 bonus miles for a limited time through October 29. The Delta Sky Miles Reserve Business Card. If you travel, you know. Minimum spending requirements in terms apply.

Offer ends October 29, 2025. Right, because, John, if I'm correct, you didn't want people to know you were working with law enforcement at the time, correct? No, my dad was a New York City police officer, and one of the edicts that he gave me was, one, don't sully our name and embarrass me. and two, don't say you're working with the police. Like, in a very cliche kind of way, don't do that. And I really had no interest. Like, legitimately, it wasn't what my calling was. It wasn't what I was interested in doing.

My role was to help people kind of like evolve through maybe their grief or whatever the circumstances that they were kind of going through. I had gotten a phone call from Bob in the office. And my assistant at the time, I think in hindsight, and Bob and I just discovered this not too long ago, I thought Bob had called me a number of times and he was like, nope, just once. But my assistant at the time was, I think, intrigued that the FBI was like calling the office.

So she made it like urgent. And Bob came in. And I think that one instance for me was like, I'm going to see if I can help. It was something I normally would not have done. But because of the way that it was put to me, like, I was like, yeah, I'll try to help. and that connection is what sparked off a three-decade friendship now, relationship. He's like my brother. That's awesome.

That's awesome. How was it for you, John, just to go back and kind of learn how Bob viewed the medium space? When it comes to what your family eats and drinks, you know your choices matter. You're the expert because you know what fits your life. And getting it right starts with good information. That's why America's beverage company. are sharing more information about our ingredients at good to know facts.org. No spin, no judgments, just the facts straight from the experts for more than 140 beverage

ingredients. Visit good to know facts.org. It's a psychic space prior to working with you. You know, it wasn't ever something that I was like, oh, I can't believe you never believed or I can't believe you were coming from a place of trying to like bust me as a fraud. it. I think because of the way that I came into the subject matter, I came into it in very much the same way. I didn't really believe that this world of energy existed in the way that it does. And because at, you know, the age of 15, I had my own meeting with a psychic that put me on my path. I discovered the reality of something being validated for me. So I kind of knew the journey

that he could go on or would go on. That was up to him. But it's no doubt. different than any of the client that sits in front of me. I can only do what I do. I can give them insights and information and how that they work with that in their lives is really up to them. You know, Bob, I found it pretty funny. Thank you for that, John. I found it pretty funny when you're going to meet him for the first time. You brought all these things that were related to the case, right? But then you brought a little test items too, didn't you? I did. And, you know, when I first went to John, I thought he was a con. When I first heard him on the radio, So I felt how could people be stupid to believe such a thing?

And I would shut the radio off and this happened repeatedly. And then, you know, I'm working probably 20 cases at the time. This was one of many. And I really think the universe or the circumstances brought it together. So to your question, Sean, yeah, John's assistant instructed me to bring items that belong to whoever the victim was in this case. They knew nothing. All they knew I was Bob from the FBI. And I was investigating in cases somebody was missing.

It's all the information they had. So the day I went to meet with John, I went to several women in my office and I, hey, can I borrow your necklace? Can I borrow your watch? Can I borrow whatever it is? And I put it in the bag with the belongings of the victim when I went to meet John. And I was confounded. We put these items before him. And if I had them in front of you now, you would not be able to discern one from the other. And he separated these things out and says, I don't know what these things are, but they have nothing to do with the reason you're here. and that certainly got my attention from the beginning. He then proceeded to pick up items that belong to that victim and gave information that was not ambiguous or general. It was specific. It could not be denied. It was things in it.

And I'm a guy who deals in logic and evidence and how this man could know the specific details that he was providing me didn't make sense to me. It certainly confused me, but I could not deny what was happening. Well, that wasn't the only thing you learned day, was it? And we're going to take a quick break to hear from our powered by sponsor. We're proud to announce a partnership between White Sands, Treatment Centers, and the Determined Society.

With multiple locations across Florida, White Sands provides luxury, top-rated addiction treatment from medical detox and inpatient care to outpatient support and long-term after care. Their resort-style campuses, expert clinicians, and holistic programs create real, lasting recovery. Together, we're committed to bringing hope, resources, and healing to those who need it most, White Sands Treatment Centers. No, it wasn't. At some point, after John had provided a lot of information to myself and the detective, that was very relevant to the case. And even information at that time, we had not yet known about the case, but very specific things. Because I heard John on the radio where he spoke to people on the phone,

via the radio, he could connect with their loved ones. So I arranged for him to connect to Fran, was the victim's name, her daughter. And in doing so, somehow another conversation focused on me and my family and John revealed things to me that were impossible for him to have known and actually told me things about my family that were unknown to me and later verified through my parents. Your mom. Yeah, yeah. I remember that. How was that for you? Because, you know, when you look, when I was reading this book, it was just amazing to me, this whole interaction and this building of this relationship you have with John, right, through the book, right? But I honestly felt like I was actually in this story and just seeing the back and forth and the bridge that he was allowed, well, I mean, was able to build between you and your father, I think was the most. powerful. Yeah, for sure.

You know, I describe my dad as Archie Bunker. If anybody remembers Archie Bunker, that was my pop, but I vividly remember the one I called my father and described some of the things. You know, he was not an emotional man by nature, but certainly that day on the phone he was. But for me, that experience with John, I couldn't understand it. So for me, I'm the guy, if I don't understand something, I want to ask more questions. So that prompted me to go back to John and ask him more questions.

It's like watching a magic trick. I want to know how the magicians are doing this. And I don't want to be conned, but yet I couldn't deny the things he was saying. So that prompted me to go back. And I think our relationship build slowly over time. And from that one case, John would start getting details on other cases that I wasn't bringing to him and it was mind-boggling to me. how is that for you john i mean you're working on one thing and you start getting um you know your

your guides are giving you more information based on other things and it's it's obviously hard to you know you can't ignore it at that point but at that point did you kind of feel like okay this is exactly where i'm supposed to be and this is how i'm supposed to help so i think for me i've kind I felt like if you would say to me back then, hey, can you, can you like, can you like do dumbbell curls and how much can you curl? I would, you know, and I go, yeah, I think I could probably be like, you know, 15 pounds, you know, I could probably do 20 pounds. And then Bob came into the office and said, hey, can you lift this? And they were like 80 pound dumbbells. And I'd be like, yeah, I don't think I could do that. And then I went and did it. And I was like, oh, I actually

can do this. It kind of was like a new discovery of an aspect of something that I didn't think I can do. So for me, I think it became a way that I can stretch. And another analogy I can give to you, Sean, is when I first started doing this in a public way and I was like being invited on media, I was invited on a radio show in Florida. And I was also talking to somebody in Manhattan about going on. And the person in New York said, are you nervous about coming on? And I went, well, I don't know if I could do this over the radio. I mean, I know I could do it over the phone, but I don't know if I could do it on the radio, especially adding in like nerves. So I said, she goes, well, you don't live in Florida. She goes, why don't you go do it in Florida? She's like, if you suck, she's like,

only the people in Florida are going to know. They're not going to know in New York where you live. So I was like, that is a good point. It kind of felt like that. Like, it felt like, well, if I suck working with Bob, only Bob's going to know. You know, if I can't really do this, it's not going to be like, I'm going to like fall on my face in front of people. Right. And it was like this whole new, fun way of stretching when you're used to doing something one way that nobody would ever ask me to do. So it was a new discovery. And it's pretty cool because you're playing, you know, you're playing a hand in justice, right? That's, you're, you're helping tie up loose ends and, and bring people, you know, to justice that, you know, these families, you know, that are out there that are still,

they can't stop grieving because the unsolved mysteries, the unsolved murders. I mean, it's a big part of everything that they were doing. You know, it was funny because I was, you know, when I was reading, I was reading, I was I remember the show called White Collar, where, you know, Neil Caffrey, he helps the FBI. And I just, oh, this is like that kind of concept, but like way different, right? Like way different. But there's a level of, you know, showing that true collaboration can really change lives. And that's what I love to see here.

But it was also something that I discovered when Bob would come to me with information, right, or a case, or he never provided me with details. It was almost like, here's something I need you to put your focus on. If I could show people the level of dedication and determination that Bob brought to the individual cases, I think it really shines a light on people who are like the unsung heroes that are fighting for justice for everybody that never gets an accolade, a celebration, or an acknowledgement of what are the sacrifices that somebody goes through in order to get that justice in order to achieve that.

That I got invested in. I got invested in him in what he was doing and where he was coming from because I was equally as passionate in doing it in my world. And now I'm watching somebody doing it in theirs. And I was like, if I could help here, I want to. You know, thank you. You know, Bob, you know, we're talking about sacrifice, right? And, you know, when, no matter what we do in life, whether you do what John does, you're

an FBI agent, or even what I do, there's certain sacrifices that come with it, right? And a lot of times it could be family. I really enjoyed your transparency within the pages of the struggles, you know, with Alex in the beginning. Like when this case came up, you know, I just started getting to the point where I think she's getting really ticked off, right? She walked out of the room saying, I hate your job. But I just would imagine that's such a hard spot to be in because you love your family,

you love your, you love your two, you know, your son and your daughter. And but you also have this sense of responsibility to bring people to justice and close this case. So, man, how did you walk through? that? You know, in retrospect, I wish I was better at both, right? I mean, you want to be all things to all people. You know, I, there's only so many hours in the day and I tried to use them as best I could. And I, it's funny, it's a great question you asked me.

I vividly remember back in the days before cell phones, we had pagers, remember pagers? Yeah. And as you can imagine in my world, my page was constantly going off with all these different cases and things of that nature. And I remember vividly one day. And John, I don't think you know this story. I'm running around with my son in the living room wrestling with him. He's a toddler.

And my pager went off. And my little boy, Connor, picked up the pager and threw it against the wall. Because for him, when he heard the pager go off, he knew that meant dad was going away. And I remember that moment and how sad that was. It's hard. I think that I wanted to be all things to all people. I don't think no matter what your career is, it's hard to do that, right? With age comes experience.

And, you know, if I could go back again, I would probably do it a little bit differently. But I'm not a guy that does things by half measure. I'm all in. And that's a strength, but it's also a converse weakness, right? I could feel that, you know. And thank you for that story about Connor throwing your pager against the wall. Because, you know, for the audience listening, that's not disreservation. respect. That means into playtime and into connection with dad. And we all know kids just, they don't,

they don't want all the fancy things. All they really want is presence. They want those moments with their parents. And so that was a symbol, that was that symbolized the end of that time, you know, that time that he had with you that, that, you know, most of the time like, you know, you're at work. And when you get home, you try to disconnect, but, you know, the world doesn't stop turning. You know, that's, to me, I wanted to ask that question because everybody talks about, you know, John mentioned determination and we talk about being determined to chase our goals and to become something, but no one talks about the underlying garbage, right?

The hard parts. And, you know, I could remember early on where there was a lot of, I don't want to say arguments, but like some contention because I was recording, you know, after I left, after I took the show out of my car. I took it into my extra room and then my family's upstairs locked away like some prison like a bunch of prisoners and we had those

moments right and and it's hard because you again you want to be all things to all people and you know when you're trying to build something so you can be successful so like the family also benefits from they do get impacted a lot

and you know what what allowed you to still continue forward without the fear or maybe even, you know, attracting the fact that, you know, this could be something even majorly wrong with me and my wife? Yeah, I think I didn't want to let anyone down, especially the victims in the cases. I didn't want to let the FBI down. I didn't want to let my family down. And so I think I was all in on these things, as I said, and to be candid. I think for me and maybe for John a little bit, for me, this book, I want my kids to realize

what I was doing all those years, that it had purpose. And this is kind of like a tribute to my kids as well. This is, while I'm honored to be in a show, I want my kids to say, wow, that's cool. Yeah. Wow. I mean, you know, to make our kids proud, but also that explanation, right, guys? It's like, hey, daddy wasn't missing. Daddy was just doing this and played a part in a really big thing.

You know, that to me is just so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. And I can concur. Like, I have three children. You know, I just, I want them to, I want them to see what I'm doing. I want them to see all the cool things, all the amazing people I get to talk to, all the fun experiences, you know, traveling and things like that because I just want them to know that they can too. That's it.

Yeah, that's it. You know, so, John, we were going back and forth a little bit on Instagram last night. And it was really eerie. Okay. Bob, you don't know this, but I think this is a fun story. So earlier on in the day, you know, I opened the PDF for the first time. And I read for like an hour straight, then I had some things to do, came back to it for a little while. And, you know, later on after we got the kids to bed, I went right to my computer and I opened up the book and it was already bookmarked.

Like I didn't close it out of my. If you knew me, you would know that this doesn't happen. Okay. So I opened the computer back up and my wife looks over and she goes, you're on it again. I go, I can't stop. Like, I can't stop. And I said my biggest fears, I know I'm not going to finish the book. by the time that I have this interview, but even still, this is, this is just great to connect

with the actual people, right? Like the actual people in this book that I get to speak to tomorrow. So it's like, I'm super excited about this. And it was the part where, um, you were doing the reading on him. And, you know, you said, you know, Bob, you were brought here for, you know, not just this case, but there's other things. There's a reason. There's a reason. that you're in my life and my phone lit up at that moment that I read that. And I'm like, that's weird. And I looked at it. I'm like, seriously, dude? Like, seriously? And it was at that moment, John messaged me back on Instagram at that very moment. I mean, out of all the moments, I'm like, doing tricks on over there. Like, what's going on here? And so, but you know,

I mean, if you believe in that kind of stuff, Sean, I mean, you know. Hey, listen, I do. I do. I mean, absolutely. I've already submitted inquiries to your website. I'm in. I'll fly to New York. But no, it's just, you know, we all don't know why we're in certain situations. And the thing that I'm really enjoying

about Eurte's collaboration of all these years, almost three decades of it, is that there's constant proof in this universe that people are brought together for a reason. We are energetic, beings. We are energetic beings. Like there's, there's no mistake. There's no nothing. And it's our job to be all in, like Bob would say, in that moment to figure out, you know, not to figure out, but to,

as a consequence, figure out what this really is. Yeah. I'm going to say that having the experiences that we've had, and even still, like in the last couple of days where we're doing this, where, you know, there's a tangibility of like our story is here. It's like I could touch it. It's not just this nebulous thing that happened where we were like two people that would connect, by the way, mostly over the phone, right, hardly ever in the same place at the same time. It now kind of solidifies for me.

Like, okay, here's the reality. Here's the lesson. And then I take it to the next place. I go for the people like yourself, right, who have this in their hands and they're They're reading this, you know, they have this in their hands, and they're reading this, and they're in this moment of, can they see themselves? Can they see their story? Can they see their journey?

Can this make them reflect back on where their sacrifices are in their job as a CEO or mom, right? Whatever it is that they're doing. And how can we help them evolve through what we're disclosing here? Because I can tell you privately, for both of us, we're excited that this book is out. But we're also like nervous about being vulnerable that this book is out because it's kind of like we're both looking at each other like we're going to do this, right? Like we're jumping now. Like this is happening.

Like this is coming out. But that's the thing. That's what I really loved about it because it's not just about the cases. It's not just about Bob's gift and, you know, in law enforcement and investigation. It's not just about your gifts and what you do. What it was really about is getting people to look at their life. I'm going through my own losses in my life while I'm reading this book because it's so relatable. I'm going to my grandma who died of pancreatic cancer in 1997.

Then I'm going to a bunch of different other places of people that I may have lost. I'm like, wow, like, I bet you they're here. And it gives a sense of comfort, right? And I think that the more introspective we can be about our own lives and the things that we're going through, through stories that you guys are telling or whatever stories that they're reading or listening to, I think it's impactful. You know, I think it's necessary.

It's such a raw, such a raw book. I just, I can't say enough about it. Yeah, I think to all these points, you know, John has often asked me, Bob, if we go back in time to that first day and, you know, forecast, this is how it was going to go. How would you react? I'm the last guy in the world

that would be talking to psychics, right? So, and for 25 years, I had to keep my relationship with John hidden for many, many reasons, right? But if the young Bob Hillen was sitting here, he'd be making fun of YouTube. He'd be saying, what do you guys doing? Why don't you get a Ouija board out and start talking with each other? Now, that's what the young Bob would say. The world was very black and white to me back then.

John has taught me an awful lot over 25 years and I've learned to understand there is more than what we just see. There's more than what we just see. to kind of tune into that and trust that a bit. You know, sorry, go ahead, John. No, please go, go, go, go. So for so many, this is my 40th year doing this, right? So in 40 years doing this, there's a lot of the same questions that come up.

And one of the questions that people will always inherently ask me is if somebody loses a relative and they're in deep grief and they are open, their objective, they feel like they're connecting. They're, it's not wishful thinking. They know they're seeing patterns, but their spouse is not. Their dad is not. And they're like, how, how do I get that person to look at this differently? To me, this is one of the ways because this is coming at it in a way of looking at objective truth where it's not, we're talking about crime. We're talking about things that are outside of the scope of what most people are going to have to hopefully go through.

and that gives them the opportunity to suspend their own personal loss and kind of come in a back door and say, well, how would John Edward know that if Bob Hillen didn't tell him that? You know, how did Bob Hillen find that person on the side of the highway if that didn't come out in the first, you know, reading? How did he know that there were, you know, breast implants with serial numbers on them and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of the, that, all of that now represents the skeptical mindset of the person who doesn't believe in the subject matter who can come into it in that way. So Bob represents those people for the people who don't have a belief system. So for anybody that has that person in their lives that you want to get them to think about, maybe something metaphysical, paranormal, supernatural, does, is there a survival of consciousness? Chasing evil is a great way to get them to kind of walk through that door without them realizing they're walking through that door. Yeah, to that point, the book wasn't written to try to convince anybody of anything, right?

This was not an homage to John. John is who he says he is, and I know that because I lived and read it with him, right? I'm not a salesperson for John Edward. He's my brother, but I can attest from my own time with him that he is who he is. And all the people who express skepticism, that was me. I get that, but this is what it is. The book is simply a documentary of the events that took place between us. And as I think you may have alluded to, Sean, when you read it, you're going to feel

like you're part of these cases with us. And it's fascinating how I met him on this one case and how that one was like a domino. It led to so many other things and so many other cases. And it was just, I honestly believe that all these things happened for a reason, the way they were supposed to. I couldn't appreciate it back then. I didn't understand it. But looking back now, and, you know, it's easy to connect dots looking back.

When you're going through it, it's hard to make sense of it. But it all seems to make sense to me now. You know, I think it really also does, too, guys. And thank you both for that, is look right in front of you. Like, that was one of the things that was, you know, John telling you within the book, it's right in front of your face. Look at it. Pay attention, right?

And everybody, every day is going through something like that that they're not seeing that's right underneath their nose. Yeah, 100%, right? And, you know, the book is going to detail things. And, you know, when you're an investigator, you want to square the touchdown. You want to put the guy in jail. And sometimes it doesn't always work out the way that you hope. But I've learned that sometimes the way it happens, it's supposed to happen that way. And it may be frustrating at a time when I'm experiencing it, and it pissed me off.

And I would call him up yelling at him and in the world. And he would say, it was supposed to happen this way. So what are you talking about? It's supposed to happen this way. But I look back now. And that goes to everybody who's listening to this. I personalize. And we're going through those hardships.

You say, why God and why me? And then years later, you say, you know what? I had to go through those things to get to this really great thing. If I didn't experience all those trials and tribulations and get knocked down, I wouldn't have achieved this great thing. And I think to me that that's representing the book as well. 1,000 percent. And look, you know, those things that you're talking about, those trials, tribulations, those are the growth moments, right? You know, you're a big dude.

You wait, what, 6.8? How tall are you? Six 8. Yeah, massive man, right? You know, strong lifting weights. but when you lift weights, do you stop when it hurts? Or do you go to failure? Right.

I mean, that's the thing that confuses me about life in general is too many people want to lay off when, you know, when their brain tells them, hey, seek comfort. Comfort's where you go to die, right? Yeah, it's easy to lay down. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I really enjoyed it because, you know, all these setbacks in the cases, the natural evolution of your friendship, it all had to come out. like that for it to be as strong and as riveting as it is now right and those things are built by design and so there's a lot of people out there right that say that stuff but if you bring the

idea of a john edward to them oh that's no no no well you can't believe in one thing and and not believe in the other right because they're connected and and we're true energy forms right That's truly what we are. And so this whole thing is just fascinating to me. And to be fully transparent, I semi-believed, it was more hopeful, right? John, I mean, it was very hopeful that this thing would exist and one day I would have an opportunity to go somewhere and have an experience with someone that can answer some questions about my past. Right. And then my wife says, well.

And when I'm reading this, it's not just hope anymore. And that's what I want the audience to really dive into. Like, guys, honestly, pick up this book. Just pick up the book, read it. I mean, preferably a hard copy. But if you need to read it on the internet or an audiobook, listen to it, read it. Because here's the thing. What they're going to find guys is they're going to find evidence of you guys

piecing something together. And it was almost like moments where John would say one thing. And then you would talk to maybe a former boss of John Smith, and it would be like dead on. It would be dead on about control, just pure evil. Well, oftentimes he would say things to me that were silly, and he said, oh, they're showing me whatever, a soccer ball, they're showing me this. I'm like, what does that mean? The hell is that mean? And like, I don't want to say dismissive of it, but that's how it felt to me. And then when that moment happened, when that thing manifested or appeared, it was like an

out-abodd experience. And I go, oh, my God. And then the trick for me was not talking myself out of, oh, this was a coincidence. This was just because it's easy to do that, right? It's easy to explain it away. But through experience, I started realizing this isn't just a soccer ball. This isn't just this. This has purpose and meaning.

And I think as I grew with my relationship with John, the better I could appreciate that and understand that and not question it. Maybe that's it. And Sean, for me, the fun part being like the Robin to Batman here was kind of like watching the tenacity of some of the things that this man did where I'd be like, you did what now? And one of my favorite things is when he put, Bob, when you put the photo in the window at the mall. oh my god it's the glamor shots oh yeah that that didn't work out so well you got lit up dude you got lit up by that lady that did not work out too that was like when he told me he did that I was like oh my god I can't believe you do that and the second part was that's pretty brilliant that's actually pretty brilliant so it triggered her oh it triggered her yes it did did but

things happen the way they're supposed to I guess you know that and then Sean did you get up to the confrontation moment where Bob put like like the whole sting operation together where everybody was being confronted in John Smith's world yet? Yeah. So we were just, I'm at the part we were just talking about it. And then the one agent said, no, this is a bad idea. And then went to another agent and said, well, what do you think? She's like, I think Bob's idea is a great idea. I think I'm there. So I got a front row seat to all of that. Like I literally was like, that to me, that to me was just like another reason why like, I'm in. I mean, Like, this is like, to be a medium, you have to be somewhat nosy and curious about like what's

happening while you're in the zone. And to see the lengths that he went to try to bring closure. And I don't even want to say to Betty Fran's family, but to the memory of Betty Fran. Huge, absolutely huge. Yeah, I mean, we're just, I can tell we're just starting, the stove is just starting to get hot, so to speak, you know, in the book. And, like I said, I'm reading it on the computer. So I'm about, I'd say, probably 120 pages in somewhere around there. I don't remember. But, I mean, there's probably more pages than I read all year, guys.

It has to grab me. You know, it really has to grab me. And, you know, admittedly, my wife will tell you this. She likes to watch the hopeless romantic thing. She likes to watch the comedies. I'm like, ooh. Let's watch something that twists my brain. Like, I want to be twisted.

I want to be pulled. I want all the ups and downs. And then I want the wow factor at the end. And so this genre of the book, like you said, pretty much just a memoir or biography of everything that went on is hitting me somewhere where I really like to be led. I like the aspect of the whole thing. Yeah.

Well, you should have tried living it. It was quite an experience, right? And then, you know, the circumstances where I had to hide it from the bureau and sometimes things happen where I had to kind of reveal to some of my close friends what was really happening and, you know, it was, it was something, it was something to live through. It was, and you know, the reality is there's many cases covered in this book. The Smith case was the one that brought us together, but each one of these cases probably could have been a book in and of itself. So it was challenging to get as much as we did in this one book, but we did our best.

So you're saying there's going to be more? John, you're a psychic. Is there going to be more? I think that's to be determined, right? Oh, no. Let's see how this goes. I mean, there's more for us. We know that there's more for us.

We don't know how much more public it'll get. That's cool. Listen, here's the thing. You're reading the PDF version, right? Yeah. So I want your immediate, because I like your energy. I like where you're coming from. What's your perspective?

You see this in a bookstore. Does that make you go, I want to buy that? I'm buying it. I want to pick it up? Or does it make you feel like, oh, no, that's too dark? No, no, no, not for me. I'm like, ooh, chasing evil. Hell, yeah, let's do this, right?

Because I think everybody has that side to them where they like to be kind of, you know, tweaked around a little bit mentally because, you know, it's a whole reality out there. And it's happening out in the world. But for me, you know, it's a, it's a pull, right? It's a pull to that book. Not even just the cover. it's the title you're like

chasing evil that's interesting why in the world would anybody want to chase evil like but if it were conquering evil it'd be like

no like it's perfect I actually want an autograph copy guys I'm just gonna throw it out there to all my people I think we can raise that I think we can you know people that know my people that you can get it to meet people

yeah we'll set it up people so no you have people you have people So, Bob, let me ask you a question because you had mentioned that, you know, you started, you know, you had to be very careful on how the Bureau found out about it. But also, there was moments where you had to tell your closest friends. What were the reasonings?

And how did that go? Well, one comes to mind there was a case involving somebody who disappeared at Yale University. And I was on the scene with some agents and Connecticut State police officers. And John called me from Ireland, I believe it was. And in true John fashion, he starts lighting up like an electrical storm. And he's telling me she's right there, she's right there. And he starts guiding me through this labyrinth of hallways and doors and rooms. And ultimately later, the victim was found where he said she would be.

But when we had searched there initially, we said, yeah, she's not here. She's not here. So all my colleagues see me talk on the phone to somebody and they go, who was that? And I got, it's just somebody. Then when the body was found, they were like, all right, what's the deal here? How did you? Well, then there was another, there was another case where unbeknownst to me, somebody was in my proximity at midnight on a hill when I was looking for a missing boy, and he overheard me talking to John. That was another time. So I was very careful, right? I certainly did not want to disclose my relationship with John to anyone. So, but

somehow we managed pretty successfully. How did you guys work through that? I mean, when a couple of people started finding out, did you call John and be like, hey, this is going on? And how did that work between you two? Yeah, I think there were kind of one-off occasions, right? And the people who I did disclose it to were people that I had relationships with, and, you know, they were my colleagues, my friends.

And the circumstances were so specific when they would say, hey, Bob, how did you know to look there? What brought you there? You know, it wasn't like I was psychic. It wasn't like I had this ability. What really is going on there? So, you know, when they heard the story, even from their perspective, and by the way, they are in the book.

Some of these FBI agents have been interviewed for the book, their testimony is in there as well. They would tell you it's undeniable. There's no way Bob could have known this. There's no way these things could have manifested. So it is what it is. You know, that's how it went down. And then there were all the times. when I was able to kind of create some kind of cover story,

just lucky guess or I had a source. A source told me, that's a big bureau thing. I got a source. But you got a pretty good damn source. Who's your source? In the bureau, you don't say, who's your source? That's like, you know, who's your girlfriend? You don't tell you your girlfriend is, right?

So. And I think, Sean, what was cool is like about a week and a half ago, one of the producers from crossing over got a copy of the book, and she read it. And she called me up. And she was like, dude, oh my God, all of this was going on while we were filming the show and you never talked about it. You never, like, you never said a word.

I was like, no. Well, it's funny you say that because I do remember early on in our relationship you were filming in Manhattan and I would show up. And, you know, it's hard for me to not stand out, right? You don't blend, Bob. And all of a sudden, I would see all these people look at me and say, like, all right, are we in trouble? What's going on?

Who was this guy? You know? And so it's interesting from your perspective, I guess, too, as well. But here was my cover. You ready? I was having severe death threats. I mean, you know that, right? Because some of them, some of them, you actually made sure that I was safe.

We had gotten a really, really bad one where somebody had described in great detail what they wanted to do to me, my wife, my dogs. It was pretty pretty graphic. It was a very scary period of time. So Bob showing up at that time, they just automatically. assumed it's a security thing. He's just it's it's it's we don't need to know about that. It's about security. So that's what they thought. They had no idea it was all this other stuff. And then ironically, my my wife at the time, she never believed and she's met John several times, you know, but she thought I was an idiot. I was a fool. What am I doing with this guy?

How dumb could I be the whole time? So that was another friction point where, you know, my relationship shit with John was galvanized. I knew who he was and what he was. And I got my wife next to me saying, what are you stupid? You know? So that was, that was enjoyable. Yeah, it sounds like a blast, man. It was. It was. And then I have my wife when she's reading the book literally says to me, so how much of this was fictionalized? And I'm like, um, none of it. It's all documented from like Bob's stuff. and she's like, you know, probing me. Like, I know, but for like story purposes, like, did you pump stuff up? Did you make it sound like, you know, better?

So I legit called Bob, put him on speaker and I said, Bob, how much of this book is fiction? And Bob's like, none of it? You were there? He goes, why are you asking me this? I was like, oh, no, no, no. You're on speaker. This is for Sandra. I need a Sandra to hear it from you that this is all happens.

The message wants to know. Yeah. I'll tell you this, Sean. And, you know, law enforcement, just a culture, we're great at when we get together, we share war stories. It's part of the culture, right? And we do that for many reasons, number one, so we can learn from each other. Like, I had this case, let me tell you how it went down what we did. But we're notorious for telling our stories.

The few times, the very few times where I share with my colleagues, my stories about John, you could have knocked them over the feather. Their jaws dropped. They said, you've got to be kidding me. It was, so for me to have that reaction amongst people who were very experienced, very seasoned when they heard this story, especially me, I'm the last guy in the world. Bob Hillen doesn't talk to psychics, Bob, not Bob. And for me to come forward and tell this, to get their reaction, if your audience has any

kind of interest in true crime and the paranormal, they're going to be riveted to the story. I mean, it peaks of curiosity, guys, right? I mean, for the people out there, you know, listening right now or even watching, could that right there, what you just said, no matter where they're at in their life, no matter what their belief level or hope level, that's this stuff is real. You just made them think. But what if? Right?

Like, you know, to me, it's irrefutable after reading the first hundred pages. Like, with some of the stuff that went on, like, good Lord. I would offer that too, right? I appreciate all the skeptical comments that we've heard. And certainly, I get it because I was that guy. But, you know, law enforcement, no matter how diligent you are, there are times when you can run down every lead, and you may know that this is the guy and this is what happened, but proving it is another thing. But to those skeptics, I would say, would have, God forbid, one of your loved ones was missing.

Something happened. And Bob Hillen is running this down. And I run into every dead end, and there's no start I've left unturned. But I just happen to have this friend of mine over here, John, who maybe can create new leads for me, or maybe who could give me a point or give me some direction. Would you not want me to talk to him? Right. I would venture to say there's going to be very few percentage of people who say, no, I'm good. Yeah, right.

Sure. Like, why would you? What if? What do you have to lose? I mean, yeah, I mean, you're already dealing with such loss. Right. It wasn't like I had a magic. It wasn't like John was a magic eight ball.

And I said, should I go do this? And the Magic 8 Ball said, most definitely. It's not how it worked, you know. No, there was still a lot of work to be done on your behalf. And in a lot of collaboration with the Bureau and supporting law enforcement, everything like that. So I don't want them to think, like, hey, he just told me this is what happened. Like, he gave you clues.

He led you to it, right? But what an amazing gift. John, does it ever, I mean, does. Does it tire you out ever? Like, I would imagine. Yeah, it can be draining. It can be tiring. It really, really depends upon the circumstances.

The people that I'm encountering, some people are just really, really lovely to work with. Some people have a lot of heavy stuff happening around them and kind of navigating that is like swimming through jello, you know, molasses. It's not exactly an easy, it's not an easy swim. But I'm dedicated to what I do. I want to leave people better than I find them. and I've said this publicly. I didn't solve anything. Any of these cases, Bob worked on. He solved. He gets the credit. All I did was provide him insights and guidance. No different than when somebody comes to me and they're grieving. I can't heal their grief. I can hopefully empower them

with information that there's a survival of consciousness and that information kind of puts them into the spiritual gym and it's like spiritual fitness. What they do with that is really up to them. That's a great point. Like spiritual fitness, right? We're, all searching for answers. We're all searching for a feeling. And if you can turn that on a little bit for somebody and then they can build on that and go seek other answers for themselves and be more kinetic, you know, connected to the energy source and spirituality, I mean, heck, man, like that, that's a massive win. Yeah. I mean, I started my career trying to, and I kind of feel like it's gone like the beginning of my journey was building bridges, right, trying to show people that we can

build bridges to the spirit world. Then there was the crossing over error. where I was actually showing people the crossing over. And then I knew I needed to leave television because I kind of had that like been there, done that kind of vibe. And I knew that what I needed to do next, television was never going to let me do. And that was to empower people deeper and provide them with the tools that I use in my own lives, right?

So that's when I launched Evolve, right? So Evolve Plus TV was the place where I brought all of these things together so that when I recognize that somebody needs not me, but a grief specialist, I've got those people. So whether people are interested in like mindfulness or astrology or any of the things that would be the circuit that you would run in your spiritual gym doing your spiritual fitness, I think it's important for people to be a seeker and explore so that they can discover new alternatives to put into action.

That's amazing. So you actually help people turn that part on? I try to help people to recognize not to go be psychic, but to look at life through like an energetic lens. And ultimately, like, what's the lesson? And all through chasing evil, you'll see that with me and Bob. And I love the trajectory that early Bob has to now Bob, right, to see the journey of the language even that Bob would use, right? Like, even like today in the interview, Bob saying that the universe brought us together, early Bob would not say that. I gathered that from the first 25, 50 pages.

Yep. That's pretty awesome, guys. How, I mean, so you mentioned that there's a little bit of nervousness because now it's out. You know, you mentioned also to me that someone from crossing over reach out to you and absolutely love the book. You know, Bob, what's your experience been like since it's been out? So this is a new territory for me. I am a guy who always worked behind the scenes. You know, even though I'm a large guy, me doing what I'm doing now is new.

And as you know, I started reading the book, it's very personally revealing too, right? And I am the opposite of that, right? I am the guy that I grew up, you know, a guy doesn't have feelings. A guy doesn't have emotions. You just tuck your stuff away and you put your head down and you move forward. And you don't talk about all this stuff. You just live your life and do your job and do your job. It's as simple as that. So for me, I feel like I am letting the world into my life. And that's scary. It's intimidating. But I think hopefully, even if one person find value in this, it's for a good cause. I hope that whatever I learned in here, whatever mistakes I made, somebody's going to say, hey, I get that. I'm that guy now. I can sympathize with Bob Hill and I need to learn from his mistakes.

Right. We do that with our kids. We all have to learn from our mistakes, but there are certain mistakes you don't want your kids to make. And you say, learn from me. But it is rather daunting. I am excited by the opportunity. I'm excited to see what comes from this. But this is opposite of everything I've done up until today. Pretty darn cool, man. Pretty darn cool. you know it's uh i grew up kind of the same way yeah you know it was real men don't cry you know all these different types of things if you feel a certain way push it down but that does create a lot of anger as you grow older that creates a lot of gaps in who you're supposed to become because you're holding on to this emotion all this energy that's just holding you back from

that next version of yourself yeah i think that i think that's i think that's spot on. For me, while I learned an awful lot from John, as far as his abilities and working his cases, I think in reflection, I learned a lot about myself in this process that I didn't even begin to understand back then. I thought I knew myself. But hopefully with age and experience comes some wisdom. And I look back and I go, John, you really did teach me a lot. You really did. Well, I mean, I can go back to the Georgie story, just even for that. That was a big thing that your family didn't talk about that you were able to bring out. I mean, that's a part, even though you weren't around, it's a part of your history.

It's a part of your family history. And I would also like to think that it relieved a massive boulder from your mom's shoulders. Yeah, I think every family has those skeletons, right? And, you know, especially the older generation. You didn't talk about things. You know, my family's great. You sweep things under the rug. And when it gets too big, you get another rug, right?

That's how a lot of old families were, at least my own was. Get a big rug, man. Yeah. And, you know, that's not the way to live life. That's not how healing happens. That just creates the opposite effect. And you got to sweep all that stuff out. You really got to reset everything.

Hmm. You know, guys, I just, this is a different interview than anything I've ever done, right? And it's, you know, I want the, I want the audience to really be on this journey with me and know that this is something different because I take, I don't take any pride in, and, in keeping that in. I want everybody to know it because, you know, this is such an amazing topic. There are so many things that happened within both of your lives and in this book that if the audience just gives it the chance to pick it up and read this,

darn thing, like, they could start to see a whole other side to life and dimensions and spirituality that could not just, even if it's not what you guys dealt with, right, at that level, but gives them that hope to move forward another day and know that they have impact on their life and that there's good forces out there because we all know that you can't have good without the presence of evil. But it just gives so much hope. I think that's, That's true, you know, recognizing your own weaknesses comes to strength, right? And with those areas you need to improve, John taught me that. And I will tell you personally, the best people I've ever met in my life have some of

the most significant scars. They've been through the hardest stuff, right? Those are the people, like my go-to people are the ones that have gone through, gone through the stuff and have come out on the other side and are better for it. And I think the book will reveal that about me. I hope I would love to know, John, what did you learn from me in all the years we've been together? That list is a little bit too long. Perseverance, determination, specifics, details, not saying no to something when somebody in the face of adversity is saying you can't do that, finding a different way.

It almost was like striking chords that existed for me under the surface, and I kind of feel like amplified it. and almost every time you and I spoke about something that you were doing because I would always sit back and just be like, this man's got tenacity. Like I can't even imagine. It's interesting because the show is called The Determined Society. No. You know, and there's a whole story.

Your whole friendship is literally the actual definition of determination. I mean, it's incredible. I really appreciate you guys. And I thank you guys so much for coming on. I cannot wait to get this thing out for you guys. you know, get this out to the public so people can listen and hopefully have an open mind. My DMs are open if you want to come at me, but it's okay. You probably won't.

I don't get too much hate, but now I'm talking to them. But, you know, I just encourage people to really come at this with an open mind. You know, go on the internet, search the book, you know, read a sample copy. I can guarantee you'll pick it up. So again, guys, thank you so much for coming on. You guys are amazing people. And it was just great to get to connect with you. in this level. So thanks.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks. All right. For the audience, you heard it chasing evil by these amazing men, John Edward and Bob Hillen. Go pick it up, guys. Let me know what you think. Follow them. Follow John on Instagram. Bob, do you have, are you a social media guy? I am not by design. I didn't take you for one. I didn't take you for one. But that's okay, guys. Again, guys, thank you so much for listening in. Until next time, stay determined.

your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded. So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like tea time you. Mmm. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you.

Said you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you. Mmm. So update on Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rinse. It's time to be great.