Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - Coyote Hills: Kellermans on Crime, Family & Legacy

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

What happens when a legendary crime novelist and his equally acclaimed son join forces on a new thriller? Jonathan Kellerman—#1 New York Times bestselling author of the Alex Delaware series—and Jesse Kellerman—his bestselling co-author and son—sit down with Shawn French for a thrilling episode of The Determined Society. Together they discuss Coyote Hills, their latest father-son collaboration, blending sharp suspense with layered characters and moral complexity. But this isn’t just about a book—it’s about family, legacy, and the discipline it takes to build a body of work that spans decades. This episode covers: -The genesis of Coyote Hills and why this story had to be told -How a father-son writing partnership really works behind the scenes -Why crime fiction resonates across generations -Jonathan Kellerman’s lessons from a career of 45+ books and global bestsellers -Jesse Kellerman’s unique voice as both novelist and collaborator -What readers can expect next from the Kellermans Whether you’re a thriller junkie, a writer chasing your craft, or someone fascinated by family legacies—this conversation delivers both wisdom and suspense. Connect with me : https://link.me/theshawnfrench?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaY2s9TipS1cPaEZZ9h692pnV-rlsO-lzvK6LSFGtkKZ53WvtCAYTKY7lmQ_aem_OY08g381oa759QqTr7iPGA Johnathan Kellerman https://www.jonathankellerman.com/ Jesse Kellerman https://www.jessekellerman.com/ Read Coyote Hills https://a.co/d/eqvXJqg Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You're about to make a trade. Which you do you listen to? Is it get optioning those options? Or let's do a little research. Learn more at finra.org slash trade smart. This book in particular is the sixth book in a series. At this point, our protagonist whose name is Clay Edison. And over the course of that series, he transitions out of being a law enforcement officer.

He's established himself as a private investigator. who has a very sort of interesting and collaborative relationship with another private investigator who lives down in Santa Cruz. And this book opens with her bringing him a case that she can't handle. She sort of punts to him. Coyote Sills is an exciting book. Agatha Christie is, you know, a huge success. She created a great puzzle. But her characters did not evolve.

We want to write real characters and change over time. It's a novel like any other novel based on character, but they're not. The catalyst is a crime. It is so full of twists and turns and surprises literally to the last page. What's up, everybody? I have Jonathan and Jesse Kellerman here, a father-son duo that has published over seven to ten books together. Like literally together. They're New York Times bestsellers and they have this amazing book,

a psychological thriller coming out in late October called Coyote Hills. Welcome to the show, guys. It's great to be here. Thank you. Thank you so much. Absolutely. I mean, you guys are, you know, we got to chop it up a little bit before we hit record and before the show started. So I'm just really excited about this conversation because one of the things that we touched on was the fact that you guys get to do so many of these things together. It's a great bonding experience.

And I'm looking at your guys's relationship in real time and how you guys edify each other. And I can just hope and pray that when my children get older, we're. can have a side-by-side conversation and them feel the same about me and me about them. So, you know, kudos to you guys. I just turned 70, 76 years old. And I don't like to introspect because I think introspection is the enemy of creativity. But you do look back and I said, you know, I've written a lot of books. But the thing I'm most proud about are my children.

And all four of them have turned out, they still seem to like me, or at least they're faking it. and I love the people that they married. So I joke that my in-law kids are my favorite kids because they call me dad and treat me nice. I didn't pay their tuition or go through their adolescence. So everyone, so that's, it's a much, it's much more important to me to have collaborated with my beautiful wife to create these four amazing human beings.

I couldn't be prouder of my children. They're really all gems. Amazing. And they're highly accomplished all of them, happily married. and prolific in producing other children. Especially this guy right here, five kids, good Lord. And he works hard at it.

You know, I think, well, yeah. I think my dad and I, when my dad and I started working together, we both realize that the relationship is much more important than the collaboration. The relationship preceded the collaboration. It will continue. you, after the collaboration ends, assuming it ever does it, who knows, maybe we'll be doing these things to the rest of our natural lives. But, but, you know, I think that level of trust and mutual respect, both as people and as craftspeople is what has enabled us to be

so productive together. Well, you never know what it's going to be like until you do it. And we kind of fell into it as I say, because I had started a book. and I was writing another book. I have a series that I read. I did a non-series book, and I did about 100 pages of it. And it was just too much, and I needed, I just, it was too much.

And Jesse happened to be visiting with his family, and he saw this pile of papers on my desk. He said, what's, what's that? I said, oh, it's a book I started, but I don't think I'm going to finish it. And then he, he picked it up, he said, this is really good. We should finish it.

I said, okay, we'll finish it together. So, and, you know, it was, a bestseller and it was a great book and we had so much fun we decided to do another one and that was fun so he kept going and we it's been a wonderful experience first of all i liken it to playing in a band you know i've been playing guitar most in my life and i've done a lot of different types of music and i played semi-pro and it really makes a difference i'm sure in sports it's the same way you want your teammates to know what they're doing it really makes a big difference when you play with people who know how to play, it just goes better for you. Same thing with writing. Jess was already a highly

accomplished writer. When he was right out of college, he won the Princess Grace Award for Best Young Playwright in America. And he had his own bestsellers. So he was highly accomplished. So it wasn't an epitism thing. It wasn't a NEPO baby. This guy was accomplished. You know, he got at the Harvard law law school didn't go. And he had his own deals. And so, It was really, it's been fun. And I never understood these people who, like there was a British novelist, Kingsley Amos, very successful. His son was Martin Amos, more successful. And they asked Kingsley, what do you think of Martin?

He goes, oh, is he the skinny one? You know, he just was competitive and scornful. And I don't understand that at all. You love your children. You're not going to compete with them. But fortunately, Jesse has a lot of talent. So we enjoy writing together. It makes it a fun process.

And I can honestly say in all these books, honestly, we've never had an unpleasant syllable between us. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, it is kind of amazing because he was a teenager and gave me quite a bit of grief at times. But he's a grown man now. He's mature. And, you know, he was a great kid. I'm not saying we had major issues, but he was, he's not a saint.

He went through adolescence. All my kids did. It's part of life. But as a writer, he's, he's. He's fabulous. I mean, it's just great. It's amazing. Yeah. What's your take on all that, Jesse? Well, you know, I think that, you know, I think one important thing to understand about me is that I come from a theater background. That was sort of where I was for many, many years. I was doing playwriting. I was directing. And that really primed me to be able to collaborate and work together with somebody creatively, without. your ego getting in the way.

Writing novels is generally a one-person operation. You're the director, the scenic designer, you're the actor, you're putting the words in people's, no. So I think for a lot of novelists, it's very hard to let go of that level of control. Whereas for me, you know, since I cut my teeth writing plays, I was very comfortable with the idea that what I do is part of something larger. A script is a blueprint. It's not the finished product.

And I was also comfortable and excited with the idea of coming to somebody and having that rapport and bouncing things off somebody. Like, I love to sit around and shoot the breeze with my friends. And this is in some ways no different from that. It's sitting in a room or a virtual room with somebody. And it's the yes and. It's the yes and of improv. Okay, what about this? I said, oh, what about this?

I wrote it. And that state of sort of creative permissiveness and freedom that allows you to build a total that's much greater than the sum of its parts. I mean, don't even wrong, I love to write my own books, and I still work on my social traits. But in addition to my dad, I also collaborate with other people just because, like, that dynamic is super fun for me. I have a collaborative.

I wrote a collaborative comic book with a friend last year. We're developing it for television. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, of fun and also comfort in going being able to go to go to your partner assuming you trust them as my dad said and that their school and you don't feel like you're you're dragging dead weight and we've all had that experience too like on group projects where you're like you're dragging people behind you um you know so the important thing is pick your pick your partners carefully pick your partners careful but same thing in marriage you'll be they'll be fine you know and we're going to take a quick

break to hear from our powered by sponsor. We're proud to announce a partnership between White Sands, treatment centers, and the Determined Society. With multiple locations across Florida, White Sands provides luxury, top-rated addiction treatment from medical detox and inpatient care to outpatient support and long-term aftercare. Their resort-style campuses, expert clinicians, and holistic programs create real lasting recovery. Together, we're committed to bringing hope, resources, and healing to those who need it most. White Sands Treatment Centers. Yeah.

That's amazing to hear. The thing that I love everything that you guys said, but the one thing that sticks out to me is most great things come out of things that are unexpected, right? For sure. That you're not forcing. And, you know, Doc, you had a book that you were trying to write and you're like, yeah, I don't think I'm going to finish it. Jesse picks it up and it's like, hey, this is great.

Let's do it together. And then that partnership and collaboration in the professional world developed. And from that point, you guys have done amazing things together. Yeah. It's just for the listeners to really think about, right? We cannot judge every single moment as it's going to be the end all, be all. We have to be open to the fact that things can develop and can evolve into something completely different than we had envisioned.

and what can be born, an amazing run of amazing books and collaboration. I think that's really an important thing. Obviously, you want to do the hard work so you know what you're doing. You have the chops. You have the talent. But you have to be open to spontaneity and new experience. In my life, certainly that's the way it's been almost right from the beginning. Even finding jobs as a psychologist, things just kind of,

kind of happened to me. I've never a really, I'm not a big planner. Obviously, you want to be organized. I'm not a, right. I'm not a flake,

but there's a limit how much you can plan things. And I think you're 100% right, some great stuff. It's like romance, like meeting my wife. I didn't plan to meet her. You know,

having children, I don't know how they're going to turn out. You kind of have to go, go with the flow to some extent. And there's no lies there, man. In creative work, as in life, it's this balance between having goals and structure and also being receptive to what the universe is giving you, right?

I think, right, and you can't do it at either extreme. And, you know, sometimes you're working more in the mode of, okay, I got, I got to, like, you know, write this outline, I got to figure this plot point out, I got to build this skeleton. And sometimes you're more in that receptive phase where you're sort of letting things flow through you. But there is no sure way to choke off your creativity than to say, I'm going to be creative now. Like that's just not, it's just not a thing. It's it's it's it's it happens in a state of relaxation. It happens in a state. And for me, and I would bet for you dad also, almost when you're you're doing you're doing something else. Your mind is elsewhere, right? And it's not

quite so locked up. So that's why people have good ideas in the shower or whatever, like when I'm exercising, when I'm walking. If I feel, if I feel like I'm sort of like starting to, starting to, to, um, sort of like run into problems, I stop what I'm doing, get up and I walk away from the computer. Well, I, and there's, there's nothing better for sort of like relaxing the channels again. I agree. I agree. Stephen King, like we talk about the Chinese finger puzzles, those straw thing about the harder you pull, the tighter it gets, you have to kind of relax it. You know, we talk about left brain and right brain stuff. That's a cliche now. The guy who invented the concept late Robert Ornstein, who was a neuropsychologist at Stanford, he regrets it because it's

been simplified and vulgarized it. The truth is it's not an either or thing. You have two hemispheres, right and left. For right-handed people generally the left-z-z-z-z-z-a-for-lefties like Jesse and myself, we never know until we take an EEG. But there's a little bunch of nerves in between those hemispheres called the Corpus Colossum, and that's the freeway that transmits messages across, and that's what you need. And to me, writing a novel is the perfect job, because think about it. On the one hand, you need what people traditionally think of as, you know, as just organized stuff, lepring stuff, where you have grammar, you have spelling, you have structure, you have logic plots that hold together. And then there's the crazy stuff where you're making up people

and you're fantasizing. So it's a fantastic job because it engages your whole brain constantly, constantly back and forth. And Jesse's 100% right. You need to be in a in a receptive, relaxed state to be able to free your brain up to do that kind of stuff. So, So it's a great job. It's interesting. It's interesting because if I have a block in creativity, right, it used to be, to your point, Jesse, I would go harder. I'm like, no, I need to sit here and I need to figure it out.

And then I just get frustrated. And then I don't pick it back up for a week. What I started to really rely on is just be present in the moments that I'm not creating, whether it's in the gym. So many of my ideas come from in between sets. or in the middle of something, it's just like all of a sudden it pops and you're like, what the heck?

Like to a point where this show was created in a moment that I was driving down the interstate in 2021. And I was like, whoa, wait a second. I wasn't even thinking about this, you know, but it was in the moment of relaxation, thinking about something else, you know, really just driving down the road.

And then all of a sudden, I created the show and we have built to a certain point and now we are here but even to now if I get to a point where I get to frustration

I'm like I'm gonna go play with my kids like I'm gonna go hang out with them and that kind of centers me because they have such a curiosity and such a playful nature and anything is possible like if I could just have the confidence

of my six, eight and 11 year old like wow what could I truly do So I really do believe in not like the Chinese puzzle, not forcing it because everything gets tighter and constricted. You have to have a point of relaxation. 100% to where you can remove the resistance and then move forward. So I love hearing things like this. Well, you know, that's the basis of hypnosis.

When I was working at a children's hospital, I worked with cancer patients for about a decade. And we were exploring different ways of relieving pain. And hypnosis was one of them. So I learned how to do it. And I learned about it. All hypnosis is is strong relaxation and focus concentration. And they have done studies where they would go in and hypnotize kids in the classroom and they're learning actually picks up because they're relaxed.

But on the other hand, you have to be able to do the hard work, which when you relax, you could do something where others just sitting around smoking weed and nothing happens, you know. So there's relaxation. There's relaxation. but 100%, you have to be receptive to it. And you talk about the word confidence, and I think after writing a bunch of books,

both of us know that if we get into a fix, we can get out of it. I love that. I love that. Absolutely. Jesse, I believe you were going to say something as well. I was going to say to that point about, you know, how you access that side of yourself and become receptive. I think for me and for my dad as well,

we have a lot of outside interests and hobbies. So we both play music. My dad paints. I cook. I'm also like a big gym rat. And it's all stuff that is nonverbal. And I think that that's actually really important. But particularly with things like music or cooking or painting,

it's still creative. Like you're still in a flow state a lot of the time. And I would argue, I don't know how you feel about this, Sean, But even in the gym, there's a flow state going on there. Like, if you're, like, very focused, you know, I power lift, and you really have to concentrate on what you're doing so you get killed or crushed. So, but it's nonverbal, right? You're in your body, right? Or you're in your hands as you're playing music or in your ears.

And it just sort of like takes the pressure off the verbal higher, higher parts of your brain that are constantly. sort of, you know, spewing out words. For my dad, and I think for me, our brains are very busy places. Like, there's just like, there's a lot of, like, you're noticing things. You're remembering things. I think, again, I almost speak for my dad, but I would guess it's the same thing. Like, you live in a constant state of like recalling and imagining and experiencing. And it's just, it's like this, it's like this constant fire hose of words and images. So trying to, like, it can be overwhelming at times. And so I think that, like, things that enable you to temporarily step outside that stream can be very, very healthy and helpful.

It's true. I mean, there's a neurological aspect to it, which I learned about because two of the things that I like to do for fun are painting. which is actually what I'm best at is painting and playing guitar, playing classical guitar. And I noticed that after a few hours of writing fiction, I can play guitar, but I really had trouble painting. So I asked this guy, Antonio DiMasio, who's one of the world's greatest neuroscientist, like he studies the nature of consciousness, and he's Italian, and I said, Antonio, why do I have trouble painting after I'm writing? And he thought about, I said, John, when you are, when you are writing your painting pictures with words,

you are probably exhausting the same neurons that go toward painting pictures. And it make total sense. Wow. Music's a different part part of the brain. So you can do it. And it's, I thought that was a great answer. I had never thought of it. So, you know, things, things get fatigue.

Neural cells empty out. They need refurbishing. You need rest. You need minimal stress, you know. And I want to see, I've never tried to describe this to anybody before. But, and again, I don't know what my father's experience. When I'm looking at the screen, right, right, I'm a computer, I'm looking at the page. I'm seeing the words, but there's a completely separate part of my brain that is playing

of a very detailed visual image of what I am right. It's like you're seeing but not seeing at the same thing. brain is just going in and out of the words and the image and the words and the image. And they sort of code. This is really interesting because I've never like tried to encapsulate what this experience is like. It's almost like it's a form of self-hypnosis and everything sort of fades away. Time fades away.

It's a flow state. But insofar as the visual, the visual component of this is really, really, really, really strong for me. Like, I think for me as a writer, being able to, and I was a, as I said, I was a theater director. So being able to, like, picture my character, move them around in space. Like, I want to know, like, how close is he to the door? So, like, if he's this close to the door, what's the perspective on the room? What does the light look like from that angle?

If he walks further in, like, how does the sound change? In all of these, all of these things, you really want to embody and experiencing and experience it, experience it as, as you're writing about it. And the words themselves are almost like secondary. They're like where you deposit these images. It's really true. I mean, that describes my experience almost exactly. When it comes to what your family eats and drinks,

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distortion of time. Generally, it's constriction of time where you look up in two hours have passed. That's true of writing. I mean, I will write for two. hours and it seems to have been 20 minutes and I look at the clock and it's been two hours and it's crazy. They say time goes quickly when you're having fun and I think it's an element when you're engaged and you're focused but it is tiring. It's tiring. It doesn't say two hours of writing feels like eight hours of another job, at least to me. I'm tired after two, three hours, I bet, you know, I think you guys are touched on what really makes you guys successful authors. Truly, because you can have an idea and think about an idea and try to get it on paper or try to create something different in life.

But if you can't see it, it's much harder. It's not as effective. The thing that I've noticed about those of us who are longstanding writers, I've been doing this for 45 years, Stephen King, Dean, Dean, who it's, even Jesse's a young guy, I've been doing it for 20 years. Those of us who keep doing it are professionals. We attack it professionally.

You know, the movies always portray the writer as living some glamorous life and he's got his feet up and he's got, and he's just thinking about stuff and having a martini and there's some good looking chick as doing this. There can be an element of that to fame. I mean, some people like it.

But those of us who take it seriously, it's a job. It is a great job, but it is a job. And it means you show up on time and you do your job. And that's, I think. The other way writers are portrayed as this like a complete disaster, like, where they haven't showered in a week and they don't know how much money is in their bank account and write it.

And, right. So, like, either one is a romantic and not very realistic portrayal of what writing life is. Like writing life is about, you know, so funny, like a friend of a son's friend who's like 18 or 20 or something and like really sort of wants to be in the creative world. It texted me recently. He's like, can I shadow you for a day? And I said to him, my dad is laughing because like he knows how absurd that. So I said to, you know, do you want to like sit in my office and watch me as I type? Like, like, that's not, it's not going to be very helpful.

Yeah. So we went to lunch and, and I walked him through sort of the mechanics of the book industry, and I walked into the mechanics of how a book goes from, you know, what the various stages are, from idea to, you know, development to out like, you can, you can chunk these things into, into discrete tasks. But, but it's artificial. It's an artificial framework that you're imposing upon it to be able to explain it to other people. Really, it's, it's, it's, um, just sitting down in a chair day after day and,

and, and like, letting your brain do, do what it's supposed to do. And then, and then going back and fixing the mistakes and pa and polishing it. There's nothing, um, romantic or particularly interesting. I, I, I once had an idea. I was like, maybe I should rent a storefront, like a commercial storefront. And I, and, and I would just sit in the window and write all day along and like just like see right because it's it's such an absurd everybody's lab because it's such an it's such an absurd thing but people people people I think people don't do it they just don't understand what the what the act involves day to day it's a very it's an internal yeah repetitive repetitive yeah the pleasure all the action is taking place up here and on the page

the pleasure isn't typing it's what's going on in your brain and what you produce it's just I found a big difference when people would come up and say, I want to be a writer. That wasn't going to happen because you're really getting caught up in the persona, which is a lot of BS. If someone says, I love to write, or even I hate to write, but I'm driven to do it. And they concentrate on the activity.

There's a little more hope there. And the other thing is, I would have kids come up and say, how do I publicize my book? I go, have you written the book yet? No. And you're thinking about it because they're so clear, influencing in the internet and a lot of BS. You got to produce something.

Then we'll talk about publicizing it. And the other things, people, I have an idea. I said, well, you know, to be vulgar, ideas are like assholes. Everyone's got one. And, you know, transform your idea into a book is a big process. You know, I can speak to this because, you know, I've self-published a book, but then I just recently signed my first contract with the publisher. Congrats.

I have to have the manuscript done by December. But I look at this and like this is very interesting to me because you talk about flow state, you talk about all these different things and all these different experiences I'm going through real time. And you guys have literally unknowingly, unknowingly of giving me really good tips on how to get in flow state, how to see the situations in my life that I'm really trying to bring to the reader in the blueprint of determination and what it really means, what it really looks like.

Exactly. Right. And so that's really helpful. I want to touch on one thing. Jesse, you mentioned something. And then I want to get to Coyote Hills. Okay.

Okay. Is you mentioned how writers are portrayed in, you know, films and a whole bunch of different things. Or just how the public perception is of a writer, right? Just sitting there struggling, you know, messy hair. not, you know, about to get evicted from the apartment. I look back at the, um, the Bradley Cooper movie. Limitless.

That's how writers were, are portrayed in, in most, in most films, right? Until they're inspired and they're, this, this massive intellectual. But, you know, I think that's a, uh, is a poor way to, to depict, uh, authors and professional writers, but, uh, you just triggered that thought. And I wanted to bring that to the conversation because I don't know, have you seen that movie? I haven't, but Jesse has, I'm sure. Yeah. Check it out, Doc.

I think, you know, like... Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded. So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like T-time U. Or this T-time you. Or even this T-time U.

Said you hear about Dave? Or even T-time, T-time T-T-time U. So update on Dave. It's up to you. you. We'll take the laundry. Rince, it's time to be great. Very, it's not just writers who get this treatment in film, right? Right. Film or books, right? They need to make something exciting and external. That's the job of a film, right? It need to make it external and exciting. So a lot of, a lot of stuff gets,

it's, you're turning the contrast like way up on life, right? To it, to an unrealistic point. And that can serve a dramatic purpose for sure. I think, and maybe I'm just unusual in this respect. For me, I want to, I often want to know what things are like in the normal moments for somebody. Like we talk, we've talked to a lot of law enforcement because we write a crime series. You talk to a lot of law enforcement over the years, right? And most of law enforcement is paperwork. It's not shootouts and stuff like, now, you can't.

right of here on a 400 page novel and 10 books series about paperwork. But understanding the reality of what somebody actually does day to day is so helpful for, I think, for creating characters who have a full life and are not these cartoons. You know, I think we always, always, always to think character first. You know, the person and the personality comes first and that's where the story emerges from. You can tweak the contrast, right? You should, you, you, you're it up when you put you put a real person in an extreme scenario but but what you don't want is is is a character or a or a cartoon you know that's that's not satisfying to anybody so so doc you're talking about the frameworks of a house the foundation and in the character right people remember the characters

but you can't have a character and say have a great framework so right let's talk about this as it relates to coyote hills well that's what we spend most of our time discussing. We have, Jesse lives in a different city. So we do a lot of, once in a while I fly up there. He flies down here and we talk. The lot of it's over the phone. We have these conferences and we're trying to figure out this labyrinthine plot. The characters kind of work themselves out because, you know, he's a talented guy. So he knows how to play in food. We, so this, This book in particular is the sixth book in this in a series. And at this point, our protagonist, whose name is Clay Edison, he's pretty well developed. Like, he's well developed as a person.

His backstory is well developed. His family life is well developed. And we've been following him sort of in real time as he gets older, gets married, starts to have kids. And against that background is sort of his professional life. So he starts the series as an Alameda County Sheriff. specifically working in the coroner's office. So, Sean, you were telling us off-camera that you're from Concord, California. I live up in Berkeley, California. So you are definitely familiar with the territory. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. So one of the things we really wanted to do with this series, because I think is a really interesting geography, and there's like lots of different pockets around here, was take each book can sort of move it, move the camera around to different locations in the Bay, particularly the East Bay. So it really doesn't focus. People think of the Bay Area as San Francisco. That's not my experience. My experience is the East Bay. So the books are set in Berkeley, they're set in Oakland, they're set in Fremont, they're set in San Leandro, all of these places that don't get a lot of exposure and treatment in fiction or film, but are really, really, really,

interesting. And over the course of that series, he transitions out of being a law enforcement officer, because he gets himself into a certain amount of trouble. By the time we catch up with him in this book, in Coyote Hills, he's established himself as a private investigator, who has a very, who has a very sort of interesting and collaborative relationship with another private investigator who lives down in Santa Cruz. And this book opens with a very, her bringing him a case that she can't handle. She sort of punts to him. And they're a great diet. They're a great couple. They're super fine. She's five feet tall. Yeah. She's wise cracking. But just to go back a little bit, we had talked about being receptive to change and shifting gears.

The genesis of this series came from the fact I had been thinking for a long time about what I was used to in Southern California, L.A. County. coroner's investigators, CIs, because I thought no one's written a book about a CI, and they're the first people on the scene. You know, in the movies, they showed the pathologist showing up, pathologists almost never show up to scene unless there's a celebrity and they want to get on TV or something. These CIs, they're ex-cops, their social workers, their nurses, and they say, you know, the cops get the case, but the, but the Crip, the coroner has the body. So the cops can't can't touch the body till these CI's come.

They empty the pockets. They inform the family. And no one had done a book about them. So I was thinking my LA thing and I was talking to Jess, I said, wouldn't it be cool to do a series base in CI? Great. But we decided to put it up up Northern California because I really had a series in Southern California and Jesse's up Northern California.

We want to cover that part of the state. Well, what did we discover that up in Alameda County, up in Northern California, totally different? The coroner's investigators, They're our sheriffs. They're cops. So we had a switch gears and change everything and go with that. And then we've evolved Clay.

He did several books as a CI. He got into trouble and he's now working for himself. So it's the ability to be flexible and change things. You know, when you talk about these crime novels, Agatha Christie, she's a, you know, a huge success. But what Agatha Christie did, she created a great puzzle, a great puzzle.

But her characters did not evolve. Poirot, and the first book was Poirot on the 20th book. Miss Marble was Miss Marple. That was not her genre. When my wife and I got into crime fiction, we decided we wanted to be part of something different. We want to write real characters who change over time. And that's what we do.

It's a novel like any other novel based on character, but the catalyst is a crime. The crime is what gets people bumping. into each other and getting, and that's, that's what we do, and that's what we do in Coyote Hills. And as Jesse mentioned, it's all about the setting, the physical setting being a character. And, you know, Jesse's able to create these tremendous vivid senses of place up in Northern California. And it's an area that has not been covered extensively. So, and it's so varied, you know, Berkeley's really different from, from Fremont or from other

place. So it's, it, it's limitless. So Coyote Hills is an exciting book. It is so full of twists and turns and surprises literally to the last page. It really is. Wow. You want to be about surprise. When I read a book, it doesn't, it doesn't matter if it's a crime novel or a straight novel. I want to be surprised. I want to have a reason to turn the page. It's all about creating surprise. What I love is when I'm watching a movie, let's say. Yeah. I want my brain to be twisted and turn and go back and forth of what I think is actually going on. And it is the same thing I like to happen when I read a book because then I'm able to see it on the movie screen of my mind.

Right. So I think it's super important. And to relate to the characters must evolve. If they don't, how can it be relatable? People grow. People have different versions of themselves. Exactly. know, me now is nowhere, is nowhere near the same as me in 2007 or even 2023, guys.

Right. Right. It never stopped. So why shouldn't a, it never stop? Why shouldn't a character and a book evolve? But, you know, with a surprise and with a plot twist, you have to play fair, in my opinion. It has to make sense. And that's a real challenge.

It's really hard to create surprises and twists that you've been fair. You've given the same facts. to the readers. You're not pulling something out of a hat. It's a very tough and wonderful job. That's all I can say. You guys are fire me up. I can't wait to read this thing. Oh, it's a great book. It's a great book. Wow. You're really happy. Interesting. One thing, one thing, and you'll appreciate this being an area. And you have one thing that this book really focuses on. So again, like we said, like the geography and the sort of like the different communities here intersecting is really, really interesting to me. Because you have

such a very population and such a very geography. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption.

It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.com. This book is a lot about the water. It's a lot about the bay itself. The bay itself is a really important character. And I think it's so interesting because I've lived here now for 13 years.

My wife grew up here, I've lived here now for 13 years. And something we talk about in the book is like, even if you live here, I'm very close to the water. If I drive like two miles that way, I hit the bay. But it's very different here. than it is in Southern California,

where there's like a strong beach culture. Like a lot of times people in the Bay Area spend their time trying to get around the water. It's like a pain in the ass. Like, it's a thing that gets in the way when you're trying to get someplace else. Which is not to say that people like surf and boat and all that, they do.

But we don't, I think, have the same sense of like, we're like, you know, like an ocean-going people. My kids, we go to the beach when I go to visit my parents in Southern California. So to start to think about the, well, what does it mean that we have this whole area built around this hugely important natural feature? Like, what does it hide? You know, like, what is it, what is it, like, what kind of, what kind of mysteries are attached to the coast? So that was like, that was a theme we were really interested in exploring. That's so interesting. And you're right.

I mean, being from that area, it's like, how do I get around this? I don't want to be at the beach, You know, it's super cold. It's always drizzling. You know, not only cold in the city, but it's just the, it's the Pacific Ocean. It's freaking cold, man. You know, the rocks, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a very, it's a, it's a rock surface, right? And, you know, out here in Florida, you go to the beach and it's like beautiful sand. And I still don't like going.

I still want to get around it because it's always a process. But what I really like is you're taking an object such. as the bay in making it its own character that just brings so much more depth to the book. Yeah. It's super fun. We got to explore a lot of settings that I think we wouldn't necessarily have explored. And to think about once you sort of set that condition up where I'm not going to call it a constraint, but like you set that condition up of like, okay, we're really going to be engaging with the water here. It limits your set of possibilities, but what it does is forces you to go very deep on those possibilities. Like writing all creative work is about choices, right?

Because you come to the page, it's blank. There's literally an infinite number of choices you can make. So the question is, how do you make, what choices do you make? What order do you put those in? And how do you structure them in such a way that it creates, as my dad said, this sense of mystery, but also a sense of fairness. By the time you hit to then, you want it to feel inevitable

and not cheap. Like we cheated you. It's not like that Scooby-Doo moment where the mask gets ripped off and it's grandma, right? Like that anybody can do that, right? Like that's not hard to do. But to get to that point

where you're like, where you're at the end and you're like, oh my God, and you look back like that Kaiser Soz-e-Mo and everything like it clicks into place, that is the challenge and the pleasure of,

constructing a book like this. It's all about preparation. Yeah. It takes me as long to plot a book to plan it as it does to write it. It's about 50-50. It's about a year-long process. Half of that is ploddy. And you talked before about blocking. I have never experienced writer's block, ever. And I think the reason is I'm prepared when I sit down. Of course, I'm going to change things. I may think I know what I'm going to do, but I have the base of structure. And I keep coming back to the construction, the building of a house as a metaphor, because unless you have that foundation, unless you have that structure, it's going to collapse. It's going to be a house of cards. So it's all about preparation to me and learning to plot. And, you know, for me, I can't speak for just,

for me, it evolves. I start thinking about stuff. I start making know. notes, it's general. Then I start making a general outline. Then I do a chapter by chapter. By time I sit down, I kind of know what I'm doing, or at least I've, I've deluded myself then. You have an idea, right. So I never have experience block. You know, there was a famous writer, Robert Parker. He wrote the Spencer series from slightly previous generation. I love Bob. He was like a gruff Boston guy. When Jesse was in college, he'd jog past Bob's house that his light would be on at midnight. So one time we were at this artsy-fartsy arts festival and so on says, Mr. Parker, what inspires you to write? He says, I have a contract. So that was one. And the other

one was, what do you do about writers block? He says, when you call a plumber, does he say, I can't come because I have plumber's block? It's a job. Be a professional. Do your preparation. Know what you're doing. And I can't speak for anybody else. But I, I, I, I, don't block because I'm prepared. I don't start it. And just say, I think it's the same way. You don't start so we know. Of course, it's going to change.

It's going to change. You know, you're going to surprise yourself. It's that tightrope between, you know, structure and receptivity that we're talking about. You're always walking that line. Yeah. I love this aspect of the conversation. Not that I didn't like the other aspect, but this is very interesting to me. I loved it all.

I love it all. Trust me. Because there's a lot of people that ask me. How do you do so many shows? Yeah. Do you ever run out of anything to talk about? Are you actually interested in everybody you interview? Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. To the latter, right? But I never get tired of talking to anybody. I never run out of ideas because guess what? Just like Doc said, this is my job. This is what I love to do this. So I don't get blockage on interviews.

because I'm generally aware of the outline and the structure, the framework of the conversation I want to have, which as you guys can tell is an open conversation. It's the most effective. There's no rapid fire of weird questions. It's just, hey, let's talk about this. And that allows me to stay free and not in that Chinese puzzle,

the finger puzzle, within the interview. So there's two different types going on here, right? There's people that are doing because they think it's cool and something that, hey, it would be neat if I did this because everybody's doing it. And there's those people, and trust me, there's a lot of in between. I'm not, I'm not pigeonholing it. But then there's the professionals that take this very seriously that look at the potential storyline, plot it out, outline it, general outline, chapter outline, right? And in my sense, it's look at the guest, look at the past, look what they're doing, what they are doing now. and how can I craft a conversation that is going to bring not just the publicity to the thing,

but also engage the listener to take action on the thing and to feel inspired to take what is said and apply to their own life. How about that, guys? I agree. And it helps that you clearly like people and you're naturally a gregarious guy. I love people, man. I love people, too. I'm a very extrovert person.

My kids used to have this running joke because we'd go to the airport and I'd be end up talking to some stranger and it was, Dad made a new friend. Now, that helped me as a psychologist because think about it, I'm in practice and every day I'm meeting strangers and they're young strangers. There are kids and teenagers and I have to find a way to engage them and relax them. I didn't find it stressful because I'm really curious. I have a nephew who's a super extradite. He comes from a family of 11 kids.

All the kids and all the parents are these super extroverts. And I said, what's it like when you're going to meet a new person? He goes, I'm really excited because I'm really curious. No social anxiety. It's a blessing to be like that. And I think, Sean, that, you know, there's a real art and skill to interviewing people. We do when we do research, the most important thing is you can read tons of books. The most important thing is to go out and, you know,

meet the people who do the thing you're trying to learn about and talk to them. And it's, again, it's this type of, you're coming in usually with a set of questions, things you don't understand or don't know about. But that's never the most interesting thing you learn. The most interesting thing you learn is always going to be something that you didn't know, you don't know what you don't know. And so, you know, like you said, are you really interested in all these Yeah, like I'm really, I think, I think in part because my job is so static most of the time. I'm sitting in a room. I am fascinated by people who do other stuff. Even things that I think to the person who's doing can feel really boring and banal. Like, you know, I think people are often

amazed that I, that I really want to know. Like, what do you do all day? One of my, one of my favorite books is by Studs Terkel. And it's a book called, I think it's called Working. I read it years ago. And it's just, he goes out. He was Sturtz Circle, you know, was his great writer and radio host. In Chicago. He died, he died, like, fairly recently, like 10 years ago.

So he lived to, like, you know, 300 or whatever. So, so, but he went out, and this book is amazing. It's just a series of oral histories or interviews with people who do their jobs. And he talks to CEOs. And he talks to parking valets. and he talks to dentists and he talks to sanitation work and says, what do you do all day? And they start to talk about it and it's completely fascinating. Because especially when someone cares about what they do, like their level of interest in it and they don't get to, and very few people actually get to share that with the world.

And I think you're doing both yourself and the world of favor by accessing that. So you always have to be, as my dad said, a gregarious person, you know. And open to it. One of the famous dad made a new friend's stories. We were kids were younger. We were going to Santa Fe, waiting in the airport. It was jammed up. And this guy next to me just started talking to me.

Well, it turns out he was a guy who repaired oil rigs in Oklahoma. Wow. This was really interesting to me. I had no clue about this. And no one had ever asked him what he did. So I just kind of listened and learned to, I'm not fixing oil rigs. saying, you know, if I'm going to be a novelist, I'm going to write about all kinds of people. I might work that into my book. Who knows? You know, the more you know about people, the better

writer you are. You could be a poet like Emily Dickinson and be isolated. But if you're going to be a really good novelist, you have to be engaged with the world, I think. You know, the more you know, the better writer you are. It's so funny. My wife always makes fun of me. Like, you know, she always, she always says to the kids, well, there's that again, talk to one of the neighbors. I've never seen them before, but he probably knows exactly what house they live in. He probably knows exactly what car they drive. But like, if I'm running the neighborhood, if I'm running one day and I, you know,

decide to stop on an interval run, I see somebody, hey, what's going on, man, what's your name? Like, hey, how are you doing, man? Hey, come watch my car next. I'm over there on that street. The next time you see them, they say something back. And then you start to understand people. But I think the beautiful part about life is truly people, right? And truly the interaction and understanding other people's walks of life's perspectives.

And we all know that's the worst thing we have going on right now in our society is we think if someone's different or thinks someone different than us or votes differently than us. or votes differently than us or looks differently than us, has different sexual preferences in us, then, hey, they must be a bad person. And that's not necessary. I mean, I don't even want to say not necessarily. That is not fact. It's crazy.

It's not crazy way to look. You know, it's just, but it's a blessing, Sean, to be extroverted and friendly and do generally like people. I was born that way. And, you know, it's just the way I am. And I, if I'm at a, at a restaurant and a, and a server, a waiter, a waiter, a waitress comes over, and they go, how are you today? I go,

fine, how are you? I'm not bullshitting them. I'm not patronizing it. They're people, too. I don't want them to feel like they're just slaves coming. Everybody needs to feel important for what they do. I'll give you a good example. It was a famous rabbi named Moshefinstein. He was the head of a yeshiva in New York. He was a gentle, wonderful man, and he was one of the top Judaic scholars of his day. Now, he would get driven around and he'd go across the, you know, the turnpike, and you had a choice of doing the easy pass or going to a person in a booth. And he told his students, you always go to the person because those people need to feel

importance. Never use easy pass. And that's a great point. That's stuck with me. That's a great point. I'm not trying to make like, I'm some safe. That's why he was late to every single meeting, by the way. He was always late.

Yeah, he was probably late at all the time. But the point is that it's just, you know, he was thinking about the human element. And it's not a matter of being soppy or anything. And no, if you're going to be a psychologist, like he should like people, don't you think? I would think so. I would think so. Not all writers are friendly. Some are misanthropic.

Some of them, you know, you would have a devil of a time interviewing them, but that's not us. So I've had, I've had an absolute great run of authors that I, I've had on my show. Every one of them has been engaging. Every one of them has been in such an interesting human being. And I just love seeing how their mind works, right? Because it's just, to me, it's interesting. Like, hey, it's fun to see how other people think differently than me.

But look, guys, I know we're running out of time. But I just, I'm so grateful that you guys were willing to come on and share a little bit about your history. And in the new book, Coyote Hills coming out. and that's October 25th, guys. So make sure you pick it up. You know, I'm specifically interested to read this book because I always like things that keep my heart rate going.

And it seems as though this is going to be one of those novels. And you guys are amazing, amazing guys. I would love to continue to be in contact with you guys. And I definitely take California trips to record. So, you know, I will keep you guys. Read it and let us know what you think. I'd be, I'd really want to know feedback. 1,000%.

We succeeded in what we set out to do. I think we did. I'm feeling good about it, but. Yeah, I feel very good about it. And I think we're very grateful also for the opportunity to come on and, you know, talk about the book and talk about our process. Like I said before, you know, a lot of it is just sitting in a room. So this is a very, this is like a relief. You know, it's fun to get together with other people, even if it's, even if it's virtual,

when people talk, talk about this stuff because it's, it's what we do all day. And just like, you know, I think we're interested in other people. I think other people are interested in what we do. And it's great to be able to try and share and encapsulate that for a wider audience. And we're grateful to you. This was awesome. This is so much fun. I appreciate it.

You did an amazing job. So thank you. Thank you. You guys did too. One thing you guys have in common, he dead lives 600 pounds. You could probably do that kind of stuff too. I just, it's not me. No.

Yeah, he's a monster. I'm not freakishly strong. Hey, so I figured out what's going on here, okay? I figured out why all the books are so successful. Why you're so chiseled, Jeremy, and can lift 600 pounds. Brother, you're hypnotized. Your whole life, he's hypnotized you.

That guy's like modern day warfare. This son of a gun has hypnotized everybody in his life. You know what? If I go on this run where I just blow up and everything's working, I'm going to go back to it. What changed in your life, Sean? Well, I had this interview with the government. I'm pretty sure Dr. Jonathan hypnotize me during the damn conversation.

I don't do it anymore. No, man, he's just one of those guys. He's always infreakishly strong. My dad was the same way skips the generations. I'm strong. I love it. Not like that. Not like that.

I love it, guys. Thank you again so much. You guys have been a great pleasure. And for the audience, in all seriousness, guys, that you're listening and watching. I don't have people on my show that I do. don't believe in, and I don't promote things that I don't feel create massive amounts of value. So, hey, check out Coyote Hills everywhere, October 25th, read the book, and let me know what you think. And until next time, everybody, stay determined.

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