Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - Kindness Is Power and Rejection Built Me

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Brad Meltzer shares his powerful origin story; from growing up in a one-bedroom apartment with six family members to becoming a 13-time New York Times bestselling author. This episode dives deep into the legacy of empathy, the strength behind kindness, and how rejection, struggle, and personal loss can shape greatness. If you feel stuck, this conversation will light your path. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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My mom, my dad, my sister, myself, and two grandparents in a one-bedroom apartment. And everyone in the condominium, because it was Florida, of course, is trying to get us evicted, saying you can't have that many people in such a small space. A stranger across the hallway from my grandmother sees what's happening to my family. And she comes to my grandmother and says, listen, I see what's going on there. I'm going to move out. Why don't you take my apartment for a couple of weeks? family can get back on their feet. But as a kid, I always heard her name as mercy. And make no

mistake, mercy is what she showed us. Today, cruelty and venom and harshly judging those we disagree with, it's become sport in our culture. But cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. There's signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is showing kindness and showing empathy. Let the pain inspire me. I put my all and everything I'm doing up until it's done. I'm me for the entirety. I put it in no overtime. I'll be working. There's no. I'm a go for mine because I earned it. They watch and I know it's time.

I confirmed it. A whole society determined. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode. I am your host, Sean French. And before I introduce today's amazing guest, please go subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts, and let everybody know what you loved about the show.

Share it with somebody you know, love and trust that needs to hear this message of kindness, empathy, and overall badassery. So today I have with me an American novelist, Brad Meltzer, who is get this, 13 for 13 on the New York Times bestsellers list. Everything he touched turns into gold. Brad, what's up, buddy? Welcome to the show. Good to see you, brother.

Good to see you. So good to see you, man. I'm a big fan of your work. Before even having the prospect of being able to interview you, I have seen your name in your face. So I am familiar with your work, but getting to know you briefly, you're just, I think it's important to start off with this so the audience knows what they're getting into you are a very kind human being i i appreciate that um you know it's funny my father and this is i

love when podcast amelia turned into free therapy um my dad my my dad was someone who used to like he just had a temper you know he was struck by lightning and his father was struck by lightning which means do you know my grandfather and my this episode is brought to you by state farm Listening to this podcast, smart move. Being financially savvy, smart move. Another smart move? Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling.

Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. My father were both struck by lightning. Do not hang out with me in a thunderstorm. going to. I wanted to, but now I don't. No, you do not. And the thing was, is my dad was like that

bolt of lightning. He would just get pissed at everything. And everything he saw, he faced with anger. So, he'd throw over a pool table. You know, he'd be, everyone was a jerk. Everyone was terrible. If you came to my house growing up in Brooklyn, there was a hole in every door in our house where he would have, when he would get mad, he'd just punch the door, bathroom doors, his bedroom door. The only place that didn't have a hole in it was my sister in my bedroom that we shared. And when we were growing up, he just was like, he knew that, you know, that's how stuff rolls, right? And his dad was a boxer in the military and used to beat my dad up. And the truth is, Sean, my dad should have kicked the crap out of me.

That's how violence works in families, right? It gets passed down generation after generation. But my dad was like, I'm not doing that. and I think gave me, you know, even though he was stubborn and everything was a disaster all the time and anger was always coming, he did give me that ability to see you don't have to relive what you've been given in your life. And that has been, for me, kindness has become right to the forefront because of that. Instead of facing things with anger, just do the opposite of your dad on this one. It's interesting, right? Because as we grow up, we have certain things that happen to us in our lives,

whether it's, you know, I grew up in a, you know, rather, I would say explosive situation. You know, my dad wasn't punching holes in the wall, but, you know, I remember my parents fighting a lot in it, you know, there were screams and there were things like that. And typically, you know, as these kids grow up, as you grow up and as I grow up, we have the opportunity to determine how we, I guess, raise our children and how we are in the house and the cycle at some point has to stop, right? And so how hard was it for you to break that cycle because you created a completely different POV for your kids. I appreciate the question.

I feel like for anyone listening, it looks like, oh, and this guy turned out nice. How great. Like, it's not easy. What you guys get to see is that final product, right? And I get to tell you and you'll say, oh, I'll tell you some stories and you'll go, oh, I like that guy. But it took years. It took decades of my life.

I used to meet everything with anger. Every frustration was, because that's what I learned. That's what I was taught. And, you know, my dad passed away, my mom passed away. And I'm thankful, I hope, you know, I think what changed my dad's life, truthfully, is, you know, his dad used to beat him up. He wasn't taught how to love. But my parents always loved me. They weren't perfect.

They'd screw things up, but boy, always knew they loved me. I remember there was a group of bullies who came and started, you know, they were all picking on me. They were five years older than me in Brooklyn. And I went up, they put like, you remember those itchy balls, those things you, like, like, you put in someone's hair, they won't come out. Okay. And they were like, come play with us, come play with us. And then I went there, they just jumped me.

And I remember coming upstairs crying. I was so upset. I couldn't have been like eight years old. And I remember my dad was like, where are they? And he ran down. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together.

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lifted him into the air, his feet this far off the ground. And I remember looking up and him saying, if you touch my son again, I'm going to kill you. And I remember in that moment going, I don't know who I'm rooting for here. I really thought my father, I'm like, this is just just turned really bad. And so, and I tell you that because he had that terrible side. But boy, if you messed with us, you got the whirlwind. And so that love, even in his worst moments, we never doubted he loved us.

And I think for me, you know, if you don't have that, that's the hole that you never fill. But I always had that. And so when I was talking about it, when I was dealing with it, I could, always at least fall back on that foundational thing as I knew for all the other falls, my parents love me. Yeah, that's an interesting story. I have a similar story, not, you know, my mom or dad choking somebody, but I can remember, you know, because I grew up in California and I lived in this place called Kenwall Apartments. It wasn't in the best area. You know, I was young. We didn't have anything. Didn't have any money. And at one point,

I'm walking along, going to play with my friends in the apartment complex, right? And these guys upstairs were shooting BBs at me. And I don't know how old they were. They were probably mid-20s, early 30s, right? Or something like that. I'm not sure. But I went home and told my mom, it's like, hey, these guys in an apartment, whatever number it was, they were shooting babies at me.

And my mom went up there, knocked on the door. They answered. And she goes, you shooting babies at my son. They're like, oh, it was just a joke. And she lost her ever-loving mind, Brad. Literally, they tried to close the door on her. And that woman put her. her fist through an apartment front door. I believe that. I go, listen, I remember I was writing my dad's

eulogy and and I couldn't like my mom's eulogy when I wrote it. It came to me like in a second. It was one of my favorite things I've ever written. I put it out on my social media every year on her death. But my dad's wasn't clicking. I couldn't see it. And because he's so, it was such a complicated relationship. It was like I, you know, I knew my dad loved me. I didn't know if he liked me. And that was always the, the, the pull, right? Because I was a serious guy. and he just wanted, he was a bruiser. And I'm sitting there and my buddy from junior high school and high school writes me a note. And he says, you know what I remember about you and your dad?

And I got nothing. And I'm sitting there stuck trying to write my dad's eulogy. And he says, I remember when my son was little, about your son's age actually, Sean. We went to, it was a little league game. They would go to, everyone would go to Marlins Stadium here in Florida to go watch. The Marlins play at one little league day and all the teams go. And there were my son and all of his friends were in one row. And then there were older kids that were on like the Yankees.

It literally was the Yankees. I'll never forget it. We're like behind them and they were like two years older. And they started bullying my son and his friends. And what these kids didn't know is I was in the row a couple behind them because all the coaches sat in the back. And I saw it. And my friend saw me. And he said, I'll never forget.

You ran over and grabbed that little kid that was bullying all these little boys. and basically said, you do it again, you know, you're finished on this earth. And he said, and in that moment, he's like, I know who you are. I know you're a sweet guy. I know you put love in the universe. But I saw the old Brooklyn Stewie Meltzer in you. And I was like, oh, that's it. That's what lightning does.

It comes down and it strikes again and it strikes again. And I was like, that's my thing for my dad. It's like, he was the lightning bolt that kept coming. But when it came to the violence and it came to, he just, instead of showing, knowing us the violence that his father showed him, he showed me something different. And that's the only reason why the lightning didn't strike again with me. Wow. So the protective, the protective aspect, right? It's like, that's what he passed down. I am, that I am still like, I mean, again, the same way with yourself. If something happened with your son right now, you would put your, like your mother,

you would put your fist through anyone's wall, car, or anything else. You know, that's a thing. It's like, and my wife's the same way. They're one of our three children, right? We had two beautiful girls and you know like they're they're at my middle daughters at this age where she's starting to get picked on a little bit she's eight and there's some things that went down earlier and I'm like I said to my I said to my wife I'm like I need to find the dad oh yeah I'll find a dad of this young boy of course I'm like straight up do not oh huh that's where Brooklyn comes out I mean no doubt about it because it's your kids and that's your protective nature you know and I think in a weird way right like I firmly believe that if you put good into the world, the world becomes a better place. That is my, a core value of

mind. It's a completely naive idea, but that's an idea worth fighting for. I agree with it. I also believe that when you see injustice or you see someone getting picked on and the world's not making sense, you've got to grab it by the throat and force to make sense, right? Sometimes you just have to go. And that's also an idea worth fighting for. And to me, that's all life is. I've spent so long saying which side is right. I have characters that I've written that are my two main characters. Literally one is that, one and is the other. And which side is right? Of course, they're both right. You do need to be a good person and put good into the world and show that kindness and empathy to people. And you do need to stand up for people, especially when you see injustice, you've got to fight like you've

never fought before. I love that, man. And it's so funny because nice guys like us, people think that there's not that other side to us. And they like to try to push around. Don't mistake kindness for weeks. I hear you, man. You know, I tend to stay quiet in those situations because I'm afraid I'm going to sit what I'm going to say. But, you know, the bottom line is, is like, just because we're kind, just because we're real and authentic doesn't mean we don't have that streak to us. And listen, you have to be better than what angers you, right? I mean, I'll never try and do it. I mean, and my dad, listen, my dad could turn that and then turn so loving. He would go into every Barnes & Noble, every bookstore in his neighborhood. He'd go in every day and he'd go like, I'm here for Brad Milzer's new book. He's my favorite author. And they're like, Mr. Meltzer, we know he's your son. We know he's your son. Like, we know.

And so he was like this lovable sweet guy. But again, you mess with his family. And right, so proud. But if you mess with his family, just will immediately, you know, we'll turn on a dime like that. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of what you experience as a child,

no matter what way you look at it, it mold you into the type of dad you are, right? And the type of parent you are going to become, spouse, writer, professional. Recently, about a year ago, you had the opportunity to speak at a commencement for University of Michigan, which is you're an alumnus of Michigan,

but I want you to share with the audience what was really special about that day. Yeah, no, I love you for this. So, yeah, I went to Michigan and always wanted to give the commencement address. In fact, on my commencement when I was there, my sister was not there, So I was fighting with my parents more than regular.

And so I was just in a pretty bitter mood. And they'd actually given students an opportunity to submit a speech to be the speaker. And I wrote a speech. I was like, I'm going to win this thing. I wrote this speech. I didn't even make it past the first round. Wow. And I remember 22 years old sitting there in that stadium and just being like so upset that day.

And then 30 years later, I get the call from Michigan saying, will you be the graduation speaker? I go 30 years later, I get to be the one on the stage instead of the 22 year old in the stands. And when I look at that, you know, it's an amazing, can't even explain moment, right? It defies all logic. And, but I mean, 70,000 people are staring at me, but I'm focused on one, one, which is my son, because my son was graduating Michigan that day. And so 70,000 people are there. And he's in the 14th row. I can see him.

He texted me where he was. And I know 70,000 people are cheering and yelling, but I got my eye on this one young boy who I love like the sun itself, you know, with the heat of the sun itself. And I got to finally put my, I was struggling with this speech and struggling with this speech. And my wife finally said to me, just give your boy the best advice you got. And I was like, that's it. I'm not writing for anyone else.

I'm writing for one. And of course, it became the, you know, when I was done with it, all these people wanted copies they wanted. They were like, can you send me the text of that speech? People were tracked down my sister's unlisted phone number and said, I saw your brother in a stadium and I think he's your brother. Can you give me the text of that speech? I want to give it to my kids, my grandkids, my nieces, my nephews. And I never in 27 years, Sean, I've had anyone asked me for the text of something I said. And I was like, what just happened? And the thing went viral and people started passing all around. And it was just something I never anticipated. And what

was it? It was for my boy. And you know that every good moment as a parent, the big moments you plan, you say, this is going to be the magical moment for your kids, that's always a dud. That never works out. The best moments with your kids always are the ones you don't plan anything for. They just show up. And that was it for me. I was like, I'm just doing this for my one kid. And of course, that's the speech that starts getting passed around the internet. Well, I loved it. I mean, it was, you were funny. You were kind. You were empathetic. But the thing that was special, about that class. And as you mentioned it, for those that haven't seen the speech or read the book, Making Magic it, that class was born around the time of 9-11. Then their freshman year in college, that was when the epidemic started, right? The pandemic, sorry, that turned into an epidemic.

You know, like, that was a pretty big thing for them. My son, my son was born in October, the month after, weeks after 9-11, okay, in 2001. Pandemic hits, and he gets no prom. He gets no high school graduation. It's canceled. COVID canceled it. So, and then here we are at his graduation. And, you know, it was at the time of all the protesting and everything else. And they almost canceled it again. NYU had their graduation canceled. So this was a group of kids that never had a prom, never had a graduation since junior high school. And I'm the one in charge of it. And, and, you know, I'm sitting there speaking. But what worked out is, is every parent in that room in the room in this stadium was like, yeah, we all lost it. You know, we all.

think that these things happen just to us, but it's one of those moments where you can come together. And what I talked about is, you know, there are things that are unexplainable. And then there are some things you can't explain at all. And that's what magic is to me. Right. Magic is what you can't explain. And when you talk to magicians, they'll tell you that there are only four types of magic tricks. You put aside illusions and escapes. There's four types of tricks, right? One, you got to make something appear. Two, you got to make something disappear. Three, you take one thing, you switch it with something else. And the fourth is you got to take one thing and you turn it into something else. The hardest trick of all, which is transformation. And one by one, we can talk about each one, but I'll go with

the third first just because it's fun. So I talk about what you have to make appear and what you have to make disappear. But I get to this part, that's the third trick, which is you've got to take two things and make them switch places with each other. And I said, here, let's talk about empathy. Because that's what empathy is, right? It's switching places with someone else putting yourself in your shoes. And I told this story, and I never get to tell this story, but I'll tell it to you. I never told it before my whole life. Even my wife was like, I don't know if I've ever heard that story.

But when I was 13 years old, my dad lost his job. And we had nothing left, nothing. In fact, we had so little that couldn't afford the money for a new apartment. We didn't have money for the down payment or even the security deposits. We had to live with my grandparents in Florida. We moved down the floor just for a free place to stay. And it was six of us, my mom, my dad, my sister, myself, and two grandparents in a one-bedroom apartment sleeping on the floor. It was not a good situation.

And everyone in the condominium, because it was Florida, of course, is trying to get us evicted. You can't have that many people in such a small space. And this neighbor, a stranger across the hallway from my grandmother, sees what's happening to my family. and she comes to my grandmother and says, listen, I see what's going on there. I'm going to move out. Why don't you take my apartment for a couple weeks so your family can get back on their feet

so they don't get evicted? And I remember always, her name was Mirsey, but as a kid, I always heard her name as mercy. And make no mistake, mercy and empathy is what she showed us. And today, cruelty and venom and harshly judging those we disagree with, it's become sport in our culture. But cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength.

There's signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is showing kindness and showing empathy. And Sean, when I said those words in the stadium, I thought people would be like, oh, whatever. I don't know how they were going to react. I never told the story before. And the place exploded. I remember going, what just happened there? Yeah.

What happened? And my wife said, you tapped a vein you didn't know was there. And I realized in that moment that we are all as a culture right now. starving for kindness. We're starving for empathy. And I think it's so vital. It's the reason why I wanted to come on your podcast as I saw your commitment to it is, and I realized the only way we can fight back is to encourage people to put that out there. You know, I remember watching the commencement and, you know, there was a lot of funny points, you know, because you, you displayed humor and you were just, your, your speech was so eloquent and just different than a lot of other commencement speeches. It was

almost like an interaction, right, instead of a lecture that most commencements are. And when it, when it came to the point where you want to, you want to shock the world, show kindness, the place went nuts. That was the end of that part. It says, if you, it says, you know, one day someone is going to hug you so tight that all your broken pieces will fit back together. Yeah, man. And, and I heard that at a funeral. A friend of mine told me that line. I said, I love that line. It just, I, I was, you know, moved to tears when she said it. I said, you know, right now you got, the world is starting for decency, for kindness, for empathy. If you really want to shock the world, unleash your kindness.

That's a completely naive idea, but also an idea worth fighting for. And I never saw a reaction, you know, I did, I think, were great jokes and great bits and whatever else. But that was the thing that brought the house down. And I loved in that moment for me, you know, I firmly believe this, Sean. not that special, right? I started writing, you know, even though I write thrillers and real history in my books, I started writing kids' books because I wanted to give my kids better heroes to look up to. And on the one philosophy is, I'm not that special. And if I want that for my kids, and if I want to show people kindness and empathy, I'm not going to be alone. And sure enough,

there's an entire massive group of people, your audience especially, that is, you know, committed to that as well. And when we realize that, then we're not alone in the universe, anymore. Now we've got something to be together about. And what it doesn't say in the speech is it's hard right now, right? The world is a kind of can be an upside down place. And sometimes when we get a lot of bad news, we shut down because it's just too much, right? And that's why we swipe to a new channel or we swipe off our apps because we're just like, it's just too much. I can't hear all this bad news right now. But you can't shut down. You can't shut down. We need you right now. And here's the part that I didn't put in the speech, is that when you look at the studies of empathy, here's the

crazy part about it, is that empathy is actually malleable. And if you want to have more empathy, all you have to do is want to have more empathy. So it's like what your freshman year at college, is that's when you make the most new friends. You want to know why? Because you're just open to making new friends. The moment you decide, I'm open to it, they all come. And that's how empathy is. The moment, you say, you know what, I'm going to show some empathy today. You will have more empathy will show up. And that means, again, like we started, it's all in your control. So you're about to make a trade based on a friend's text. But which you do you listen to? Is it, we could buy a house in Toulou? Get optioning those options. We could lose everything.

Or let's do a little research. Get your head in the trade and make the investment decision. That's right for you. Learn more at finra.org slash trade smart. Yeah, it's interesting because that is the exact message I got, right? And it's something that I try to live. I try to live by on my show and in my life in general, right? Because what you see is what you get. I'm not one way here and then another way in my personal life. Do I have my flaws?

Absolutely. My wife will tell you, right? But it's one of those things, man, where what I've learned in building this platform is that multiple people from all walks of life who may have different beliefs want to be heard and they want to not just be heard, they want people to understand their perspective. And that's what I've really tried to do with the platform is create a neutral place where they can go, not feel judged, can be heard, can give feedback, and pretty much anybody's welcome.

I wrote this line of my book that someone said to me once. It's one of my favorites. And it says, the most intimate thing in life is being understood and understanding someone else. And that and I was like that, that I was like that undid me. And that's what you're doing, right? You're giving people a place to feel understood. No judgment, no politics, no BS involved. That's the thing is we're so busy fighting each other these days. We forget how much we have in common, right? That's what our apps do. Our apps are designed by, I mean, the algorithm is designed to make you mad. Why? Because the more mad you are, the more you stay on it. So it's designed to make you find enemies. And what you have to do is fight that urge and push that away and realize, you know, there's so much better you can offer out there if you just kind of open up a little bit more to the universe and realize you can't change anybody else. You can, the only person you can change is yourself. That's it. That is all you got.

And if we all say that, the whole world changes. I was asked a question today, right? With everything going on, we're, you know, obviously this is not a political show, but, you know, everything going on in the world. The apps are designed to get us to fight, right? And then you just most recently, obviously, everybody's talking about the tariffs and all that stuff. I don't want to get into the details of it, but I was asked my POV. And I said, here's what nobody wants to hear right now.

no matter what you believe where you sit on the aisle, whether you're left, right, middle, doesn't matter, confused, or wherever you sit, you are being impacted by the government's decisions, no matter what. So you can play the blame game all you want, blame it on one side or the other. But the reality is, Brad, what we have to do right now as parents and humans in the society is stay in our lane, focus on one thing, focus on our families, focus on our craft, focus on getting better and putting good into the world. And what happens, happens. That's all we can control. I firmly believe that most people, obviously, there are total douchebags

out there, right? They're just all. We know that. There are. Of course, we know that. But the average person, okay, what we are trying to do is show our family love, give them a better life than sometimes that we had growing up. We all have hopes. We have dreams for them. Right. And when you meet people, they don't want to fight. But the internet is like, someone said it and it's so right, the internet is like the bathroom wall in a stall, right? It's like people just write the worst crap. If you read the bathroom, what's written on the stall in the bathroom and thought that that was real, you're insane. I know. So why do we give so much power to some nonsense we read by some guy on the internet? Like, it'll be like listening to what's written on the stall. So ignore the stall.

That's all it is. And I do hope, you know, and I think, I think telling the stories, and reminding people of them is that's where you get your power from. I mean, there was a, I'll tell you this story. When I was in high school and I was 13 years old, I used to work with a guy named Nick Wicott. And Nick Wicket, this was back in the late 80s, so everyone wore a gold charm and a little symbol on the end of it. I wore a gold Superman symbol because I like Superman. And Nick used to wear on his gold charm, we would scoop up. ice cream together, he used to wear a, like a whale dolphin tail, like the tail of a dolphin.

Because his dream was to train one day the dolphins at SeaWorld. Wow, okay. And it was such a wild, weird out there dream. And if I had nothing, Nick had less than I did always. I had two parents, he came from a single mom. If we had, you know, very little, he had less than that. And so Nick fought his whole life. And four years with scoop and ice cream, we're getting, you know, yelled out by customers all

the time. And when my first book comes out, Nick Wicked, I lost touch with them. It was pre-internet. I didn't know where he went. I just lost touch. But it was around the time of my high school reunion and they give us the addresses of everyone coming. So I sent invitations to everyone in my class saying, come to my book signing because who else is going to come? It's my first book. And it's my third book sign. I'm not far from you. I'm in Vero Beach, Florida. Nobody's there. It's my parents and my wife and nobody. There can't be 10 people there. And in walks Nick Wicked with a pint of Haganah's ice cream.

And I say to him, I said, man, what happened to you? Where are you? What are you doing? He says, guess. I said, I have no idea. Where do you live? He says, Orlando. And I go, oh my gosh, you train the dolphins at SeaWorld, don't you?

And he says, you have to come and see. So I get my butt up to SeaWorld. And I'm, you know, it gives us a little roped off section, makes us feel important. And all of a sudden, the show starts. And the first trick is the dolphin comes out of the water and jumps, you know, 25 feet in the air. And Nick Wicked is standing on the nose of the dolphin. He's not like throwing food to the dolphin. He's the star of the show.

I start crying. I'm bawling. And I'm like, and to see that guy who came from nothing actually live his dream in front of my eyes. And he saw me after he's like, why? The only person cried more than you is my mom. But to watch that, that's what gives me hope in the universe, right? It's not, we spend so much time fighting. We lose sight of these amazing moments.

And that's my core belief. I believe ordinary people change the world. I don't care where you went to school. I don't care how much money you make. That's nonsense to me. I believe in regular people and their ability to affect change in this world. And I watch what Nick has done with make-a-wish kids and people you don't know and strangers and, you know, all these kids that come and, you know, just want to have that one

day of kindness before something happens. And that has more impact on the world to me than any stupid politician than any nonsense out there, whatever side you're on. I agree with that. It's funny, real quick, because you touched on the gold chain and the in the charm. So to this day, yeah, what do you got? I sell of a gold chain. Yep. Two bats crossed and a baseball with a diamond in the middle of it. Beautiful. That's it. My parents gave me this, this pendant when I was playing high school baseball. And my mom asked my son one time, she goes, honey, what would you like for Christmas? He goes, I want to change

just like my daddy. Oh, that would undo me. Undo me. So here's where it gets crazy, right? So, you know, he got a white gold one, you know, so it's not identical to me, but it's a bats, you know, two bats crossing a ball. And one day, I just hear this sobbing upstairs. And I'm like, what the hell just happened. I run upstairs. I'd be thinking like he broke his leg or something or something happened.

And he's in the bathroom and the pendant completely snapped in half. And went down the drain. The man, the young man was so hysterical because it meant something so much to him. And again, my mom ended up getting him another one and it's all fine. Right. But you hit on the point, that's what life's about. Yes. Right?

He wasn't mourning just the chain. He knew that that thing was you and my dad and this person who loves me and looks out for me. There's a sign in New York subway right now. And it says, who will remember your name? It's a potent question, right? Who will remember your name? When you're gone, who will remember you? And that's one of those moments, right?

Your boy, like you, what you're etching in his life is you make history every day. And that charm, I guarantee you, when he's our age and 30 years from now, he's going to still be wearing it, hiding behind his shirt and pull it on and say, here's my dad. Right. And obviously there's so much more, but here's my dad. Yeah. And I just think that's the start of teaching young children. Like you mentioned, you know, ordinary people changing the world. It's really focused on this for the audience right now.

I really want you to think about this. the reason why you follow people and you love people and you and you're influenced by them, hopefully it's for the right reasons. And typically there's a lot of people out there doing good things in the world and we really need to tune into them. And they're just ordinary people like, hey man, we're ordinary people me and you, right? Hey, man. You know, it's so funny because as my journey gets a little more intense and involved and

become more known, people look at me different, right? And they look at you different because, you know, hey, look, you're 13-time New York Times bestseller, but you're still Brad. You're still an ordinary person who is executing on their gifts. And by you doing that, you're living your real purpose in life and you're spreading love as a result. And that's where I really focus on things. And it just, to me, it's touching because if I look at everybody I look up to, all the people I look up to, it's not the normal people you would think.

It's people that I can connect with when I'm having these conversations and know and feel where their heart's really at. I love you for that. We did a study a couple years ago with a real actual like a company that does this stuff nationwide. And one of the things we did is we asked people, who are your heroes? Who do you look up to? And I thought they were going to be like, you know, whatever, famous people or, you know, famous athletes or a president depending on your politics, whatever might be. They weren't even in the top 10. They barely were there.

It was mom and dad and grandparents, even whatever the age range, wherever you pick, young kids, old kids didn't matter. And I was like, I'm encouraged by that because it doesn't feel like that all the time. But I do think, you know, and again,

even the people you don't like can be amazingly helpful to you if you change your point of view on at Hagenh when I was scooping ice cream and I told this story, you know this story, but I was scooping ice cream one day And this woman comes up and she starts snapping her fingers at me.

And I'm like, ma'am, I'll be with you in a second. She says, no, no, no, help me now. And I'm like, you know what, ma'am, you're being rude. I'm not going to help you. And she's like, you better help me right now. I'm like, you know what, ma'am, I'm not. And she said, you know, you're going to be working. She screams in my face.

You're going to be working at this miserable ice cream store for the rest of your miserable life. And I calmly told her, ma'am, if I am working here for the rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting any ice cream. And I used to, I used to like, laugh. be like, oh, that woman never bothered me. But I'll tell you, Sean, it totally bothered me. Yeah, I bet. Completely dug at me because my dad always struggled financially and I was worried what that woman said to me that I was going to have the same financial struggle. But I also, as I got

older, that woman drove me. She fueled me. So we always say, like, when you say what you have to make disappear in the magic tricks, like, you know, people want to say make your fear disappear, but I don't think that. I think use your fear, harness it. Don't, don't vanquish your critics prove them wrong. And so whether it's a good person or a bad person, you decide what power they have over you or what they can do for you. And that, you know, when we were putting together Make Magic as a book, we wanted to give those magic tricks to people and say, you can, you can do these every single day. And here's a little bit of inspiration you didn't know you needed because we all, man, we all need it right now. So it's so funny. Like when you told that story, I kind of

chuckled, right? Because we all have that person. I remember, you know, growing a up in seventh grade and you know my PE school teacher mr. doran saying that you were the worst athlete you'll never amount to anything oh and I'm like right said I looked at him and I go what do you mean he goes well you you can't run the mile you can't do this you can't do that I'm like oh that's all you know that's that that that'll be fine I go we haven't got to the baseball portion of this unit yet and then once I did once we got there you know I showed everybody you know the athlete that I was and but but the main is is having those people, those doubters. I mean, because, you know, there's been plenty of doubters

on my current journey. At the beginning, there was a big chip on my shoulder and I wanted to prove everybody wrong. Now, I'm on this massive journey just to prove myself right. And, and, you know, and, you know, as a consequence, it's like kind of given everybody else that, you know, that proverbial middle finger that said I wouldn't do it, that laughed at me and said, who is going to listen to your show? And I'm not. I'm like, well, I guess now, I guess a lot of people. Yeah, but for me, you know, listen, I got, on my first book, I got 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers.

I got 24 rejection letters, right? You doubled down. That means two people doubled down to make sure I got the point. But I remember back then being like, if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And the week after I got my 23rd and 24th rejection letter, Sean, I started my next book. And but here's the part you don't know about that story is every day that I sit down to write. And here's the part, the 23rd and 24th rejection letter, I thought we're going to be acceptance letters.

There were two publishers that actually said, we love this book. Can you come meet us because we want to make a bid on it? So I met two of those editors. I went to New York. I met with them, had big meetings. And I was in all this debt at that time. I had law school debt. I had college debt.

I was just up to my years in debt. My agent said, we're going to get you out of debt. We're going to sell this book. This is going to be a bitty more on number 23 and 24, someone's going to buy it. You're going to get out of debt, Brad. I said, great. She told me to sit by my phone. She's going to call me with the number to tell me because back to no cell phones.

And I picked up the phone expecting her to tell me, here's how much you're going to get for your book when you're going to be out of debt. And I'll never forget. I picked up the phone and I'll never forget the word. She said, sorry, kiddo. And my heart sank because it means 23 and 24 are both out too. They didn't want it either. And every day, Sean, here's my secret, that I sit down to right, I replay that moment. I picture the phone that was in my hand.

It was one of those clear see-through phones. You could see the wires because that seemed high-tech. Those were cool. They were cool. I picture the desk on my left with the swivel lamp every college kid has. On my right is a bed in a box spring. That's all I had. There was no headboard or anything fancy.

I look over the balcony. There's an empty gross parking lot and a fire station with three doors. I count the doors in my head, one, two, three, and then I say those words to myself, sorry, kiddo. Because I never, ever want to think I made it. I never, ever want to think I got it all figured out. I never ever want to be anything but thankful for this life I've been lucky enough to have. And for 27 years, every day I sit down to write, sorry, kiddo, sorry, kiddo, sorry

kiddo. That's my magic trick. And see, and that's what I love, right? And for the audience, as we land the plane on this episode, is, you know, choose to get the lesson out of that. Like, you've wrote many, many books, and they've all been successful. But that one moment was the pivotal moment in your life and your career. You could have said, you know what? I just don't have it.

I'm just not going to do it. And one major, I guess you would say, similarity to all successful people is that they have that moment where they are rejected. for that last time that kind of just breaks the ice. And it's like, you know what? I'm going to go hard. I'm going to continue to go hard. And one day, this is going to be successful. And that's what you've done.

And that specific moment and everything that you do every day, that is your process. Yeah. Well, listen, the Wright brothers, the Wright brothers, every time they went out to fly their plane would bring enough extra materials from multiple crashes. Yep. Which means every time they went out, they knew they would fail. They would crash and rebuild and crash and rebuild. and crash and rebuild, and that's why they took off.

But that's what people are missing. I love that. I love that. That's what I'm saying. That's what you're saying. Of course, same thing. Gosh. Like, you know, it's like you don't get to the top without getting your teeth kicked in.

There's too many people that quit. Every history book we write, whether it's Rosa Parks, Dr. King, we did Abraham Lincoln. I showed you half the dozen elections he lost. George Washington lost elections. The new book is We Are the Beatles. And they talk about how they're terrible. They're terrible band. And then they basically go to Germany.

and they play for the better part of a year, they play 1,100 hours, just playing and playing and playing. They didn't care where. They didn't care where. They did not care where they said they could smell the toilets as from where they were. Yeah. 1100 hours and they're like, and then we got good. And they were like, but what we all see is the end result.

And we forget that the best part, all the success is the failure. That's not the bug. That's the feature. It has to happen. And when we come on. If we if we just build statues of heroes and we, We build this big granite statue and worship at their feet. We do them a huge disservice because anyone we've talked about, Rosa Parks, the Wright brothers, Dr. King, you know, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, anyone you love and admire have moments where they were scared and they were terrified and I didn't know they could go on, but they do, baby.

They just keep going. That's it. It's like that it's the stubbornness. It's that discipline. That's the determination, right? That's the Wright brothers. I'm like, I want my kids to hear that story. I want everyone here the story.

If you dream big, you work hard, but you have a side order of stubbornness, you can do anything in this world. And I'll leave you with this. When I look back on the experience, I had 24 people who sent me a rejection letters. 24 people told me to give it up, said, you can't do this, Brad. You can't write this book. And I don't look back on the experience to say, well, I was right and they were wrong and ha-ha-ha-on-them. I look back and realize life is just subjective. And all you got to do is find one person, something.

one yes and just one yes to change your whole life and your job in life is to find that one yes and I was lucky enough to find it because I just kept going at it but just look for the yes don't hear the nose just look for that one yes and that's how the whole thing changes the the main thing is those 24 rejections are the 24 things that made you who you are if I if my first book sold I would either be insufferable or I think I did it all or did whatever. But I'm so thankful every day for those rejections. I'm so thankful for that woman at Hagen-Daz who told me I'd be working there for the rest of my miserable life. I'm so thankful for that whole condominium that said to me, you know what, Brad, we want to evict you get out of here.

You've got nothing, you know, you're no good. Like that grounded me. It gave me humility. It gave me decency. It gave me empathy for other people. My God, man, I wouldn't trade that for anything. All of that was, you know, that was all part of the action. Now you're a superhero, man.

I don't know about that. I'm just true. You know, like everyone, just trying. You just got to love yourself for who you are. That's the secret of life. That's it. I feel that. I feel that.

Well, man, look, dude, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation with me. I know my audience is going to get a ton out of our conversation. And I can't wait to read, we are the Beatles. I can't wait to read it to my children because, you know, You know, for the parents out there, if you want great books for your children so they can read something to look up to people that are worthy of looking up to, check out Brad Meltzer series. Like, you're going to love it. I can't wait to read it. And like I said, read it to my girls.

And it just, dude, it's just been a great pleasure having you on today. I just thank you so much. Thank you, brother. Appreciate the help with Make Magic from the Star. You were so supportive of the speech and the book that we made of it and all that. I really appreciate it. Well, I am positive. This is not the end of our communications and our relationships. So I'm grateful for that. To the audience that listened to this episode or wash it, please send this episode to somebody that you know would get a ton out of it. Someone that's going through things that the world may seem unkind to them, but they're struggling anyway. Let them listen to this episode so they have the courage to continue on. Until next time, stay determined. I put it in no fatan.

I'll be working. Just know I'm a go for mine because I earned it. They watch and I know it's time. I confirmed it. A whole society determined. Determines. Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door.

Expertly cleaned and folded. So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like tea time you. Mmm. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you. Said you hear about Dave?

Or even tea time, tea time, tea time, tea time you. Mmm. So update on Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rinse. It's time to be great.