Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - Kwame Christian’s Guide to Negotiation, Courage & Hard Conversations

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

In this episode of The Determined Society, Shawn French sits down with Kwame Christian, a bestselling author, attorney, corporate negotiation consultant, TEDx speaker, and host of Negotiate Anything, the #1 negotiation podcast in the world.Kwame breaks down the real meaning of determination: making an agreement with yourself and keeping the promise, even when fear, conflict, or discomfort stand in the way.But this conversation goes far beyond traditional negotiation. It dives into the psychology of people-pleasing, childhood conditioning, internal self-talk, emotional regulation, boundaries, and what keeps so many of us from speaking up for ourselves.Kwame shares the origin of his compassionate curiosity framework, a simple but transformative method for navigating conflict without anger, defensiveness, or emotional shutdown. Key Takeaways-Determination is keeping the promises you make to yourself, even when it’s hard.-Most people fear tough conversations because of childhood conditioning or people-pleasing habits.-Conflict becomes easier when you use Compassionate Curiosity: regulate emotions, ask better questions, and approach the problem together.-You can win an argument and lose the relationship. Focus on connection, not domination.-Discipline grows when you celebrate the pride of honoring your commitments.-Mastery comes from deliberate practice. Focus on the process, not the outcome. Connect with me :https://link.me/theshawnfrench?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaY2s9TipS1cPaEZZ9h692pnV-rlsO-lzvK6LSFGtkKZ53WvtCAYTKY7lmQ_aem_OY08g381oa759QqTr7iPGAKwame Christianhttps://www.instagram.com/kwamenegotiates/ Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In your opinion, what is your definition of determination and how does that apply to the art of negotiation? I would say determination is when you make an agreement with yourself and you keep the promise. I don't just focus on the external negotiation. I focus on the internal negotiation with myself. So I say, what is it that I really want out of this? Avoiding the conversation isn't going to do anything to make it better. It's going to make it worse. There's a difference between being liked and being respected. You can't live your life where you're always making sure. that other people win even at your expense. Now what I do is I've reprogrammed myself to every time I feel this. Now by rule, I have to have the conversation. And the payoff isn't necessarily that the

conversation always goes well. The payoff is that I turn myself into a man that I respect. What's up, everybody? We're back with another amazing episode. I have Kwame Christian here. He is a negotiation expert for corporate companies trying to negotiate the best deals possible. He's a public speaker. He's a best-selling author, I believe two-time best-selling author. He is the host of Negotiate Anything, which is the number one negotiating podcast in the world. And we have him here today with us to share value of having these hard conversations. And I don't want to take words out of the man's mouth, but the best things in life are on the other side of a tough conversation. So, Kwame, welcome to the show, my man.

Sean, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. Oh, man, super excited, dude. I was digging into you and just, you know, just do my background like we do, man. That's what we have to do. We have to do our research, but I was so pleasantly surprised, not just in as your demeanor, but the content of your story. And for those who may not know your background, can you give them a little bit of kind of of where you grew up?

I know Caribbean, but you grew up in Tifton, Ohio, and, and, or did I say that right? Is it Tifton? Tiffin. Tiffin, Tiffin, my bad guys. I made mistakes. But you have such an interesting story on how you've overcome some things in your life

to be able to have the hard conversations now. So why don't you go ahead and educate the audience a little bit? Yeah, for sure. And I think one of the best places to start is with childhood. It sounds like a therapy session, right? But when it comes to my approach to negotiation, this really shaped me. Because a lot of folks who come to negotiation,

they've had super successful careers in the corporate world or counterintelligence, And then they say, I've been exceptional at this my whole life. Here is how I do it. But I'm kind of the opposite. I came to this because I was profoundly bad at having these tough conversations. So I'm a recovering people pleaser. And when I took the time to analyze where this came from, it really did go back to childhood.

So like you said, I'm a first generation Caribbean American. Mom's from Guyana. Dad's from Dominica. We settled in Tiffin, Ohio, which is not known for its diversity. It's a small town, rural Ohio. I'm laughing because you're sliding your TED talk. It was the response from the listeners in the crowd that were there as president was just hysterical. And it was a nice, it was a nice touch.

Thanks, bro. And I think that's one of the things that helps me connect with people because when they hear in negotiation, they get kind of scared. It can be very intimidating. But when you could just be more human and make people laugh feel good, then they can connect. And so I remember early on when I was at, in Tiffin, I still have some great friends to this day. It was always treated with respect. But I remember there was this one time when I was in first grade. There was a situation where it was recess.

And I was looking for kids to play with. And I went to one group. Can I play with you? And they said no. Went to another group. Hey, can I play with you? They said no. And then times running out.

And I see this last group of friends. It's like, hey, can I play with you? And then they said no. And then the bell rang. recess was over and I didn't get to play with anybody. And you know, for a kid, that's heartbreaking. And so, but I tried to keep it together. And then the teacher could see that something was wrong. And she said, Kwame was wrong. And I said, well, nobody would play with me. And I burst out into tears. And I remember I made a vow to myself. I said, I will never feel this lonely ever again.

And so I said, whatever it takes, I'm going to make people be my friends. I'm going to figure this out. And when you fast forward to the end, like a senior year, captain of the basketball team, Sean, I knew everybody in the school by name, freshman to senior. Literally everybody going through the halls would greet everybody by name. So from the outside, it would look like I'm a success. I'm a popular kid, doing well, have a ton of friends, but they didn't recognize the silent compromises I was making. I wouldn't stand up for myself.

I would agree when I disagreed and would just get along. And so I was a people pleaser, couldn't stand up for myself, and I was trying to figure out how to overcome it. And that's when I created my methodology. I love that. And I want to go into the people pleasing because I said to you off there and I'm going to show the audience, I do struggle with this still to this day. I think it's something I'm always going to struggle with. And when we people please, just so were liked, we compromise things about our self, our happiness, our sanity, right? and you had something your mentor told you,

and I know it word for word, but I want you to share with the audience because I think that was a pivotal point for you. Oh, yeah, it was a game changer because I was talking to my mentor, I was telling him my dreams, and he said, well, you have big dreams, but here's something you need to realize.

There's a difference between being liked and being respected, and you're not going to have the professional success you want or the life you want to have if you cannot have these tough conversations. And he was right. It's a limiter.

And you can't live your life where you're always making sure that other people win even at your expense. You are trying to be somebody that you're not in order to just be accepted. And it's not a fair trade. But the thing that's tough about it is that it's not necessarily them being unfair to you. It's you being unfair to yourself because they don't even know that there's a problem. And so for me, I was studying psychology in undergrad. And this was when my mentor told me that. And so I treated my fear of difficult conversations just like a phobia, just like you would

anything else. And so I just used the methodology to expose myself to these tough conversations, to stand up, to treat that fear response that was baked into me to say, okay, the pattern, the habit was feeling that feeling, stepping back and avoiding the conversation. And then the payoff would be not having the conversation, just feeling good in terms of not having to have the tension of a conversation. But I had to reevaluate that habit because the emotion is still there. And Sean, until this day, I still feel that emotion, that fear when it comes to a conversation,

but I change the habit. I feel the fear. And now what I do is I've reprogrammed myself to every time I feel this, now by rule, I have to have the conversation. And the payoff isn't necessarily that the conversation always goes well. The payoff is that I turn myself into a man that I respect. That's the thing. You know, because it's not just being liked and being respected.

you should be respecting yourself. And that's one of the critical elements that we forget. Every time that we have these conversations, it is a vote of confidence for the man we ultimately want to become. And that's what was really empowering. And then it was when I got to law school that I learned that in the negotiation class that this is a skill, not a talent. You could actually get better at this.

Now there's a methodology for us to actually have the conversation and have it effectively, but you're not going to have the conversation if you can't overcome the fear of the conversation. I love that. Let's go into the fear real quickly, okay? Because I think for everybody, it's rooted in different places. Is it rooted from the day on the playground for you? Or where does it start? Yeah, I think a big part of it was that playground experience just overcorrecting, honestly. And I know that my parents, they didn't, I mean, they never had effective training on conflict resolution. And so dad was a people pleaser and wouldn't set good boundaries. And then mom kind of would just let things. fester without saying things. And so I think there was that incident, but then there was a cultural component as well. But the thing is, everybody has a different path to their people pleasing. Some people, it might be a personality.

It might just be they are more introverted and less likely to stand up in those cases. Maybe it's a situation where they're as children, you might have parents who, like me, they avoided conflict, or you might have people on the other end of the extreme where they had toxic, almost violent levels of conflict. And so it would trigger that fear for them. And so in my first book, finding confidence and conflict, people were really surprised because the first 70% of the book is all about the internal battle, the psychological and emotional barriers that prevent you from stepping up and helping you to figure out what your performance gap comes from so you can come up with your own solution. Because you're right, everybody is going to be different in

in terms of how they got to this point of people pleasing, but once you can understand yourself, then you can start to rebuild yourself. And that's the thing. I wasn't born this way, I was built this way, just brick by brick. And the person who's listening to this podcast,

they can do the same thing too. I love that. We're going to get into that built brick by brick in a minute, but I wanted to dissect something of myself because you brought up a good point. You know, for me, like I grew up in a household with a lot of conflict.

And it was, I mean, Nothing bad. I mean, listen, I had a good childhood, but my parents resolved conflict by yelling and screaming. So I thought that if I have conflict with somebody, it's going to turn into this fight. So I would always, and even to this day, I'll say, okay, I'm not going to deal with this because I don't want that. I would rather feel like shit right now and not get what I need than to cause a whole other shit storm for myself, which is this massive amounts of conflict that's going to take all this energy from me. So, you know, for instance, like if I have a conflict conversation or a tough conversation before a show, that can really throw me off. And it's not fair to my guess. So I'll internalize it. So I'm being kind of a martyr here. Like, can you walk the audience through that process, please? Because I think there's somebody listening right now that can really benefit from you dissecting that of even me. Oh, yeah, for sure. And here's the thing, Sean. When it comes to the example that you gave,

it's completely legitimate. And here's the tweak, though. So if you, if you, have that difficult conversation before a podcast, 100% it could throw you off. But what I've done is I've had not, I don't just focus on the external negotiation. I focus on the internal negotiation with myself. So I say, what is it that I really want out of this? Base case scenario. Well, there's a problem that needs to be solved. I would love to have a conversation so I can solve this problem so I could get this relationship back on track. And then I quickly realize in this internal dialogue that avoiding the conversation isn't going to do anything to make it better. It's going to make it worse. And oftentimes, too, we don't realize that we are depriving another person of the

opportunity of adjustment because the other person might not even recognize the impact that their behavior is having on you because you haven't said anything to. Right. So for what I, what I do now is part of my negotiation is there's a shot clock now. I say, okay, cool. I won't have it before this call because that would throw me off, but I'm not going to allow myself to not have this conversation. So within the next 24 hours, I will address this in some capacity. And so then I set that boundary with myself, but then I kind of burn the boats, as they say, when it comes to this. So I'll send a text to the person and just say, hey, listen, I'd like to have a conversation about this sometime in the next day or so. Let me know when's good for you. So now I can't say,

hey, ha ha, I was joking. You know, then I look silly. So it's like, well, I can't get out of it now. So I kind of create these mechanisms through internal negotiation and commitment to make sure that I step up and have the conversation. And again, the thing is, when we have the conversation effectively, when we use the right tools, these are opportunities to strengthen the relationship and solve problems. And even if it doesn't work out, conflict is still an opportunity to identify and remove malignant relationships with minimal damage. These are relationship tests. And maybe one of the reasons why we're afraid to step up and have the conversation is because we don't want the confirmation that. the relationship needs to fundamentally change. That's an interesting point, right?

Because I think there's a lot of people that go through, I mean, whether it's a friendship or even, you know, parent, a child or a spouse's relationship, that having those hard conversations, they talk themselves out of because they're afraid that the relationship will either end or it'll get even worse, right? And that's just a great point.

Mm-hmm. And here's the thing. Sometimes it does need to end, Not all relationships are the right relationships. Sometimes it's just to hear for a season, right? We have some friends where we have to reevaluate the strength of the connection for whatever reason. And that's okay. And I think it's important to give yourself permission to acknowledge that that might be a legitimate issue.

And sometimes it doesn't need to be the relationship ending. Maybe it just need maybe it needs more distance. Maybe it needs less distance. You know, so maybe if it's a situation where hypothetically, Maybe you and your in-laws beef a lot. You know, maybe the problem is... I'm blessed there. I'm so blessed there, man.

Good, good. Same. Thank God. Thank God. But I realize like, okay, hey, with some relationships, the issue is that you are far too close, right? And then with other relationships, let's say your spouse, the problem might be you're too distant.

Hey, I want more time. We're not close enough. The genesis of the conflict isn't necessarily that something is particularly wrong, it's that there's a level of closeness that we both want that we don't currently have, that we need to figure that out, right? So again, when it comes to reevaluating the relationship and how close they are, the dynamics, it's not always black and white. Sometimes it's just, it's a little bit more nuanced, but the conversation is an important part of the process for you to recognize what the best position is for the relationship. So I think we have to give

ourselves opportunities to improve the relationship. And again, sitting on the sidelines and hoping that things get better isn't a great strategy. I just got to say this is so good, man. This is so, this conversation is so impovered because when you mentioned the friend thing, I won't do a season where it was post-sports and I was going through this identity crisis. I burned a lot of bridges, you know.

I can throw the Hernan-Cortez quote and burn the boats. I burned the boats on my friendship because I was doing a bunch of dumb things, right? And for years, I internalized it, man. I internalized losing those friendships and then I made it about me stating, I'm just not worth those friendships.

And maybe that was the vehicle that kind of gave the distance. You know, recently one of those relationships, those friendships, those friendships came back. I grew up with these kids. And now we talk. I mean, you know, me and my friend were reconnecting again and it feels good. There was never lost love. It just needed to be some space.

Right. But the rest of them are still kind of out there and not having any type of contact. And I've learned to be okay with it. I've learned to say, you know what, if I were them would I have wanted to be friends with you back then anyhow. And they don't know the real you now, but for some reason they're not ready to know that. This person was ready to know that part of you and who you are now as a man, you know, a husband and a father, will give that to him. And if the other ones are meant to come back around, then they will. But if not, that's okay too.

And I think a lot of times we get hung up on friendships. So it's when a relationship, when a romantic relationship ends, there's some finality to it usually, right? It's like, okay, either I messed up big time or she messed up or, hey, we're just not good together. But a friendship sometimes is more sacred. And it hurts more long term when you lose that homie. Like you, you know, there's been times where I've wanted to pick up the phone

and call that one guy that I still don't talk to. I'm like, nah, man, I can't do that. I mean, I can. But I'm not, I'm not ready to yet. Right? It's just that's really what it is. But but these friendships, man, I want you to speak deeper into that because there's people, man, that lose friends all the time. And then all of a sudden it puts them down this path of destruction when it really doesn't need to. Absolutely. This is such a great question, especially when it comes to, I know a lot of your audience is males. We, we often

struggle with friendships, especially when we have so many responsibilities. We focus so hard on making sure that we're getting work done. We're leading our families and taking care of things that we can let those friendships kind of atrophy. And it can be very awkward. And a lot of times, like you said, we can internalize that and say, is it something wrong with me that led to this? And the thing is, we have to be honest with ourselves because nobody's perfect. Sometimes you do make mistakes. You have to own up to it and recognize that. And I think one of the best things we can do when it comes to these conversations that can be very awkward is just acknowledge the awkwardness and just say, hey, listen, I know this is going to be kind of awkward. I know we had a bit of a falling out,

but you've always been somebody that I cared about. And if there's a way to get back on track, I'd love to explore that. But if you're not ready, I completely respect your autonomy to kind of take a step back. And so here's the thing. One of the biggest barriers to doing that is the vulnerability and humility that's required. Because you are putting yourself out there open to be rejected and hurt again by the same person who might have rejected and hurt you before. And we might not feel emotionally ready for that. And if we can let go of the outcome and focus on the process, that's going to be what really sets us free.

It's the classic stoic mentality, right? Control the things that are within your control. I can control the way that I carry myself. I can control my thoughts, my words, and my actions. And I can control whether or not I treat you with the most respect I possibly can. I cannot control your response. I cannot control your emotional reaction. That's on you, not me.

My job is to do the very best I can and let go of the rest. And so also with the way that I said it is that I'm not putting pressure on them. I'm letting them say, hey, listen, if I don't want to mess with you, then you can just say, hey, you know, piss off. I don't care. And what's really funny, Sean, is that when you do that, it actually makes it more likely for the person to say yes. Because if the person feels forced or pushed or pressured, the safest answer they can give

is no. I don't know what it is that you're offering me, but the status. quo has been okay and at least I'm familiar with it. So I'm going to say no. But if you show them the respect of saying, hey, listen, I want to be clear about why I'm asking for this. And I want to make sure that you know that you have every right to ignore this and say no, I respect you either way. And the person's like, oh, interesting. And now it makes them lean in a little different. Yeah. You know, you said something really powerful there. Not even know if you knew that you did. Because intelligent and impactful people like you, we just, they just talk. And it's like,

okay, I just said what I said, and it's no big deal, right? But controlling the process, not the outcome. And I feel like that's something that my platform to determine society was built on. And now we're getting into the bones and the structure of what we do here on the show is really focusing on what you can't control. You know, back in when I was playing baseball, my coach would always say control the controllables. You cannot worry about the outcome. You cannot worry about XYZ. have to worry about your attitude. You have to worry about your effort and how you go through your

process. And that's a big deal to some people because it is so easy, especially in the world you and I live in, to want to control the outcome. And I have a lot of people that come to me like, how can I just skip this level? I'm like, how much one do you got? Like, you know, like, but if you can skip it and you do cut the line, how are you going to feel about that later? Like, How are you truly going to understand and really see the value of what you're creating if you don't just focus on the process? But people want that easy bake oven to success or that quick resolution and it doesn't always fit. But what you said there, I really want you to dive into controlling or diving into your process and separating from the outcome or result. Yes.

And one quaint note that you mentioned about trying to skip the line. And one thing that I've recognized is that a lot of times people will. will say that they are ambitious when they are really impatient. There's a difference, right? I want this. I want all of it. And I want it really fast. It's like, okay, I think what might be happening is that you are not confident enough in

your own resilience, your own ability to be determined to go through this process and get the outcome. So you're trying to get a first round knockout because you don't think you can go five rounds, right? So I just, I want to make sure that people know that. And then when it comes to the, what I would say is divorce yourself from the outcome and marry yourself to the process. Because if you focus so much on the outcome, there might be ways that you could shortcut it, but you also shortchange your ability to grow in terms of your ability to communicate with confidence.

And so you heard about the 10,000 hour rule where they would say you need 10,000 hours. You need to log 10,000 hours to establish mastery. every like a lot of people have established 10,000 hours of walking are we Olympic walkers we've talked for we've talked for 10,000 hours are we communication experts no the study says it's 10,000 hours of deliberate practice so what can we do to turn every conversation into deliberate practice we need to ask ourselves two questions after every conversation you approach yourself like your own communication coast ask yourself what did I do well in this conversation and try to replicate that, then ask yourself, what did I do poorly? And your goal going forward is to not make the same

mistake twice. And as long as you do that with every conversation, you're focusing on the process and then that happens to affect the outcome. Because for me, when I have my conversations, when I think about my toughest negotiations and conversations, my mentality is everything's practice. If I keep on growing and developing, the conversations that I have this year will pale in comparison in importance to the conversations I'm having next year and the following year. So I'm practicing today for conversations tomorrow. So my primary goal is to make sure that I am doing the very best I can under the circumstances. So if it is a wet, rainy day and you're stepping up to bat, yeah, those conditions are going to have an impact.

But you need to focus on your swing, focus on your balance, your eyes, everything. Focus on the things that are within your control. And as you do that with consistency, then it leads to your secondary goal, which is the outcome. But what's funny is that the more you focus on the primary goal, the more the secondary goal handles itself. Because if I'm doing the very best that I can and focusing on the process, then I will succeed in the conversations I was meant to succeed in. And then I will take a meaningful practice opportunity on the conversations where I don't get the

outcome. Either way, I still win because I get better and stronger through every single rep. You know, it's funny because you made some sports analogies and we're also talking about conversation and negotiation. I want to share with you something that I recently went through with my 12-year-old son. He is in middle school. He's sixth grade now, and he tried out for the middle school soccer team. And it's a highly competitive.

He's at a prep school. It's highly competitive. All of these players played competitive soccer. He's played rec ball. Okay. He went there just messing around. And that is a very hard thing. And so I came to him, you know, he came home one day and I said, hey, after the first day of trials, how do you feel?

Not good. Well, how come? Why, I suck. Well, I'm sure you didn't suck, but did you give your full effort? He goes, yeah, I felt I did, but everybody else is so much better than me, I don't think I'm going to make this team. I said, buddy, you can't control that. He's like, what do you mean? He's like, if I'm good enough, I'll make it.

I go, if you show good enough effort and you have a good attitude out there and the coach sees that you're coachable, the chances are very high that you will make the team, even if your skills are lacking. I said, so what I want you to do tomorrow is I want you to have a little bit better of a day. I want you to ask questions. I want you to be a student on that field. If you don't understand a drill, ask. But it's embarrassing. I go, what's more embarrassing?

Doing the drill completely wrong and getting cut or asking for clarification and executing what they want you to execute. So second day, he comes back. It was really good. I don't know if it was good enough. I'm like, can't control that. Again, let's talk about what we can control.

What can you do tomorrow that was better from today? And he gave me an answer. I can't remember what it was. But he went out there on the third day of tryouts, and he came home and he was smiling. I go, you had a good day, son. And he goes, I did, daddy. I worked so hard.

It was so great. He goes, honestly, I don't know if it was enough, but at least I know I gave everything. I got an email that night at midnight stating that he had made that soccer team. Wow. And there are sixth graders who got cut. There are sixth graders,

this is a funny part of the story, but I'm on the practice squad. So my wife went up to the coach said, hey, on the days that he's not playing because you guys are traveling or having a game, if he needs more help with work, can he go? He goes, what are he talking about? It was where Bobby said he is on the practice school. You kidding me? Bobby's one of the better sixth graders that I have. He's on the team. He's going to get some time. So the first game comes. And this is a longer story, but I want the audience to hear this because it's about what you can control, right? It ties into what we're talking about. First game comes and he gets seven minutes. That's it. And they won eight nothing.

They blew this team out. It was a mercy roll. Everybody walked off the lid. He was so pissed. I said, hey, man, congratulations. You won. I really enjoyed watching you play. And he goes, I'm pissed.

I'm like, why are you mad? He goes, I barely got to play. I go, okay, let's work this. back real quick. I was like, I don't want to do this here, but I will. I was like, first you thought you were going to get cut. You didn't get cut. Then you thought that you were on the practice squad and you were upset about that. And then, and then you got seven minutes. You're mad about that too. So what are you really mad at? Like, you got seven minutes. Did you give everything that you could give in those seven minutes? He goes, I don't think so. I go, well, then

there's the conversation. So the next game you get in, I don't care if it's three minutes. I don't care if it's one minute, route effort, fly around the field, give everything you got, that's all you can control. He was more aggressive last game. He only got like three minutes. He got knocked on his butt a couple times because kids were much bigger, but he was smiling. And there's this one story I told him after that first game that I left out. I said, I showed you the clip about Tom Brady, son. Remember this clip I told you about Tom Brady about him practicing at Michigan? He's like, yeah, yeah, he goes, you only got three reps, I practice. And I said, what does coach tell him?

He's like, well, he said that all you can control is giving your best effort on those three chances you get. I go, how are you any different? That's the best quarterback all the time. Do you think you're better than him? And so now, now he's in this mode where I'm just going to control what I can. So I just wanted to share that with you. And I want to share with the audience because, you know, conversations with our kids are very

important. You're a father. You have two, you have two children, correct? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so these conversations and bringing this to them is super important. How do you, how do you navigate those waters, bro? Well, well, first of all, Sean, before I answer, I loved the story. I loved everything that you said, and you're clearly a great father and parent and coach and mentor. The only thing, the only beef I had, the only beef I had with that story, you used, you used the word Michigan, bro. I'm a Buckeye. Oh, shit, that's right. The Ohio State, baby. Don't come in here.

You guys are on the up, though, man. You guys are killing it. We're feeling good. And we just need to beat the breaks off Michigan. I don't care what happens. I think you will. I'm an LSU, guys. So I'm in turmoil.

Like, I'm in major turmoil this year. I think all of college football is better when y'all are strong. So hopefully you get the right coach and get moving. But let's see. Sabin Bady, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick. Come on, dude. Get Miss Terry on board. She loves Guadourge.

That would be hilarious. What a triumphant return. Oh, that would be so good. Vegas has him as the number one. Vegas, the betting line is he's the favorite. But does Vegas know something? Yeah, does Vegas? But, I mean, you talk to anybody and they're saying,

Nick Sabian ain't coming back to coaching. But if he were, I bet you would be Baton Rouge. Oh, for sure. He has some unfit. Come on. He has some unfinished business. Come on. That'd be sick. Yeah. Unfinished business that, baby. Come on. Paging saving. But yeah, my bad, I derailed. Remind me your question.

It's okay. I love con. This is real conversation. This is great. We keep it flowing, baby. Right. We vibe. But yeah, man, I think for us as as parents, it's so important to to be good coaches. And here's the thing, man. So we often see ourselves as the correctors. And I think it's a very old school mentality. And it doesn't, it's not that it doesn't, it doesn't, have its place. We just need to add a little bit more nuance to it. Because if we see our kids do something wrong, we need to correct them, right? But how we do it is very important. If I'm just telling them, telling them, telling them, they're not learning. Really? They're just obeying me in the moment. What if I'm not there? So I'm not trying to tell them what to do. I'm trying to teach them how to think. And when you think about us as parents, a lot of times when we're not around,

we will morph into their internal voice. So throughout their life, they're going to be hearing us thinking it's their own thoughts, right? So for me, I use curiosity. I parent like a negotiation expert, you know? So I'm asking them questions and seeing if I can lead them to discover it themselves. Because if they can discover it themselves, then it sticks more. And you did it perfectly in that conversation because you're saying, hey, let's evaluate the story here.

Because here's the thing, with most things that are outside of the physical realm, whatever you believe is true. So let me explain. here my table is hard rocks are hard water is wet can't negotiate that it is what it is but everything else is subject to interpretation so a lot of high performers a lot of the folks in your determined community they get to where they are because they treat themselves very harshly it's not good enough it's never good enough and they're powered by negative energy but they can re-evaluate their story and have the same motivation but do it with less emotional turmoil

because your son was using the story of, it's not, oh, I got seven minutes, I wanted more, it wasn't good enough. And that story, if he chooses to believe it, would be true based on the metrics he created. But you're saying, hey, let's look at the story from a different perspective. You thought you weren't going to make the team. You thought you made the practice squad. You made the actual team and now you're getting time. So based on what you thought a few weeks ago, this is a big, big, big win. Accept that win and now move on and like level up from that win. And I think a lot of times we don't do our, we do ourselves a disservice by not taking the opportunity to celebrate our wins and recognizing the micro wins that lead to the macro wins. And sometimes as parents,

it's our job to help them to see the full story so they can appreciate themselves and feel good about themselves and build on positivity and feel good while doing good. Dude, I'm feeling emotions right now because when I grew up and I love my dad, but it was I would go two for four with a double in a home run and you would tell me like hey you suck you struck out and popped up and you let that ball get by you and in the seventh inning you're a catcher your job is to block everything so i started dissecting myself of like okay i have to be perfect and if i'm not perfect i'm not liked right and and that's and that's hard you know for for me as a parent i i focus on effort like what do you give as i don't praise ability you know even as a coach like

when i met when i still go out there and mess around on the baseball field at the high school level. I don't praise abilities. I praise efforts. Like, it's truly what it is. And there's another side to these things with our kids. And I know you'll appreciate this. Your kids see some, your kids see things one way. What my son didn't see is the overall fanboying I was doing in the stands. I had my phone out. Oh shit. I said, babe. Oh, shit. He's going in. He's going. Oh, my God. That's 32. That's 32. Look at him. And I'm like, it's like, it's like the, it was the best feeling in the old, man, to see my little guy getting out there in a competitive atmosphere being able to do something that he likes and hopefully turns into love.

You know, so he sees one thing. He feels one way and I'm sitting there fighting back tears. Like, I can't believe he's doing this. Yeah, it's powerful. And first of all, I am glad I'm not the only dad that's a weenie out here crying over everything. I cry all the time, though. I cry all the time, dude.

I cry, bro. I don't care. I cry. I feel like for me, having kids just like shook something in me. It's like, didn't cry before. Then I came up like,

I'm emotional about everything. But it's a beautiful thing, man. It's a beautiful thing. Poor Kwame is going through manopause over there, man. That's what it feels like. I'm like, who am I? Why is this making me cry?

I remember going to one of my sons school assemblies. When he was in first grade, they were singing these little songs about nonsense and they're not singing well. And Whitney and I are sitting there recording in tears. Like, why are we crying? This song is so stupid. But we just loved it. But it's like, dude, it's like a thing, man.

Like when my kids bring me home, like something for Father's Day is like, you know, because I have a son he's 12 and I have two daughters nine and six. Nice. And when they bring me something to make me something, I'm like, like, I'm like, I'm like hurting, bro. like the Father's Day thing, I love my daddy because he makes me good breakfast every day. You know, and I know it's much more of that, but my six-year-old today looked at me

and she goes, Daddy, I got to tell you something. I'm like, what's that? It was before they went to school and she goes, thank you for breakfast. It was so yummy. And I said, baby. I said, baby, of course. I go, but what was it about today?

I'm a creature of habit. I pretty much make you guys the same thing every day unless it's a week. And she goes, I'm just, I'm just thankful I had a, I had a good breakfast. And it was, it was, your eggs are really good, dad. It means everything. Yes. Yes.

Oh, that's beautiful. It ain't about the eggs, bro. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. It's about the connection. And those are the things that they'll remember too, those basic mornings. Man, you know, you talk about, you know, as we're winding out on time is, you talk a lot about compassionate curiosity.

Yeah. And I think it's an important point to hit before we, before we finish because, you know, a lot of people can go up and even in conversations with their spouses, be like, what's your deal? Like, why are you, why are you so mad? That's, that's curious. But are you going to get the response you want? Like, talk to the audience about that because I think if, if a husband or a wife or even a child can get this one thing on how to approach somebody with capacity. curiosity and truly understand what it's defined and how to execute it could change their whole life. 100%. And I think, too, with the just remembering the term, you don't even need to remember the framework, because I'll give you the framework. But as long as you remember the term, that alone will be a very powerful signal for what you need to do in the conversation, right? If you ever are in a situation where you don't know what to say next, the next thing you should say should come in the form of a question because that'll call the conversation go forward. you're gathering information, they feel respected and heard.

So when it comes to this, we're going to assume that there's an emotional component of this. And so step one of this framework is acknowledging and validating the emotions. So we're going to label the emotions, and then that helps to lower the emotional temperature of the room. So saying it sounds like, it seems like, or I can tell that. So we can say, oh, it seems like this is a really frustrating situation for you. Or I can tell that this is really impactful. And without going too deep into the nerdy psychology, unless you want me to, because I would love to, Of course. Okay. So I'm also a psych major, so like, feel free to geek out.

Right. Let's nerd out. Okay. So when somebody's emotional, we have the amygdala. And so that's what's firing. It's the epicenter of emotion. And now let's juxtapose that to the frontal lobe. So that's the big part of the brain up here at the front behind your forehead, where you have executive reasoning, executive function, emotion management, logical reasoning. And there is an antagonistic relationship between these two brain structures. So the more emotional you are, the less clearly you're thinking. The more clearly you're thinking, the less emotional you are. It's an either-or proposition. So always remember, it doesn't make sense to send a message to a person who is not psychologically ready to receive it. If the amygdala is firing, they can't think logically about it, you know. So that's why you can have so many situations where you have all the facts, data, and logic on your side, but the person still doesn't agree. It's like, think about when our kids were toddlers and they would be freaking out crying on the floor and everything and you try to explain why it's inappropriate. Hey, little Johnny, this isn't, this is inappropriate because this is not conductive of a gentleman in society. He doesn't care.

He doesn't care. He doesn't have the capacity. Exactly. Right? And the thing is, a lot of times we are talking to people's internal toddler and then they cover it up with professionalism and decorum. And they're very emotional and then we can't, we don't appreciate it and because we don't address it, then it's still festers.

So in psychology, they say you have to name it to tame it. So you label the emotions saying it sounds like, it seems like, or I can tell that. And the reason that works is because the part of the brain that accepts or rejects or rejects the emotional labels is located in the frontal lobe. So it leads to more frontal lobe activation, which calms the person down. And so once we get the person to a more manageable state, then we get curious with compassion, asking open-ended questions with a compassionate tone. Pro tip here, avoid questions that start with the word why, because it seems judgmental and often receives a defensive response. So a why question. Interesting. Yeah, this is crucial because a question that

starts with why could seems judgmental, but if you transition it to what or how, it's more well received. So why are you so mad, right? Versus, versus, hey, what seems to be bothering you today? It seems like there's something on your mind. Right. And so changing from why to what or how is a really powerful move. And then step number three, once you've lowered the emotional temperature of the room, you've taken the time to gather information with a compassionate tone. Now it's just win-win negotiation. It's not me versus you. It's you and me versus the problem. We are trying to tackle this together to find a solution that creates a future that's acceptable for all of us. And it allows you to flow throughout those things.

So if you see emotions, no matter where you are on the framework, you know step one, acknowledge and validate emotions. If you need more information, ask questions. If you ask a question they get emotional, we go back to step one, acknowledge and validate emotions. So it helps you to flow really organically and not focus on buzzwords. You can be really authentic and fully immersed in the conversation. And it doesn't feel to the other side like you're trying out tricks or. tactics, but you can stay completely focused on them. I think it's super important to let the audience know, too, that this is easier than they think.

Because here's why I truly believe this, Kwame, is if we are going at a conversation to win an argument, this is impossible. 100%. This is impossible. If you're making this about you because you want to validate how that other person made you feel or you want to bite back and you want to, your goal is to win an argument, Well, if you win an argument, congratulations, you're the biggest asshole in the room. Just the way it is.

Like, I mean, you, you, if you want to fix something and understand where someone else is coming from, then drop your wall and ask these great questions and be truly curious in a compassionate way. And those types of conversations ends up going very, very well, right? Because I, as you're talking, I was thinking of like, just little things with my wife and I. If she asked me like, if she says, why are you so erratic right now? I become even more erratic because now I'm defending my position. Because a lot of me, what people don't understand, my wife is starting to understand is I have really bad ADHD.

And when I get anxious and I don't feel seen, it turns into anger really quickly, right? is just a part of, I want to say my gift. I don't think of it as a disability. It's what has carried me so far. But when she says, hey, I feel like you may be feeling this way today, what's bothering you? I'm just really stressed and I'm anxious. I feel like an elephant is sitting on my chest. I feel like I'm about to have a panic attack.

I really don't know if I can speak about this right now. I just feel like I need 20 minutes by myself. Beautiful. Okay. You know, like, Kwame, man, like, if we go into these conversations, no matter if there's emotion involved, what's the overall goal? If the overall goal is resolution, then don't come at someone. Exactly. And, Sean, this is the thing that people miss.

You can win an argument and lose the relationship. You don't advance. And we don't understand fundamentally what an argument is. There's no judge or jury. So arguing to some invisible arbiter doesn't make sense. the only, what's the path to victory in an argument? We have to think about it. Truly, how do I win an argument?

It is by submission and domination. It's like, I dominate you to the point where you give up. You submit to my greatness and intellectual superiority. That's the vibe. That's the vibe. And so it's like, yeah, I might get this short-term win and do long-term damage in the process. That's the thing.

And so I think about it through Newton's third law of physics or third law of motion. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Kwame's first law of persuasion is every point has an equal and opposite counterpoint. I'm talking about why I'm right. You respond, boom, boom, boom, boom. We're just going to argue in perpetuity until somebody gives up. And here's the thing about humans. There's this really, really nuanced technical term that all humans have.

It's called revenge. Okay. And so you might win right now. They're like, okay, Sean, you think you won. You just wait. I am lying in wait for you. And at some point, I'm going to get my get back one way or another. Yeah.

Right? So the getbacks are worse. 100%. So that's, and especially when it comes to conversations with your significant other. You know, so I think we have to recognize what it is, what problem we're trying to solve. And the thing is, for me, this, this, it took so long to create compassionate curiosity because, like, as Da Vinci would say, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. I recognize that the problem.

that people were having, number one, we've been giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. It's not necessarily that they don't know the strategies. It's that they can't access it because they're afraid. The second thing is under tension and duress, our minds are filled with, our bodies filled with cortisol, the stress hormone that clouds are thinking. So we cannot even access these strategies because they're too complex. So I needed to make sure that I gave people something simple that they could easily remember in the moment that would apply to all of their conversations and it's designed for the internal conversation too. So before I even go into the conversation when I say, oh man, I need to have a conversation with this person. I need to tell

them what it is. I'm going to have an argument and I'm going to win because I'm right. Now I'm going to use compassionate curiosity on myself. I'm going to say, okay, what is it that I'm feeling? I'm angry. Okay. Well, anger is a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion. Usually something else is making me angry. So what else am I feeling? Well, I'm feeling a bit disrespected. Okay, what else and I'm feeling a bit disappointed. What else? Nothing else? Great. Step one, done. Step two, getting curious with self-directed compassion. Why do I feel this way? Well, I feel like we've had this conversation a number of times and we're here in the same place. It's like they weren't even listening to me. Well, what else? They actually said they weren't going to do this thing and then they did. Was that a lie

or do they not even care enough to think about it? So I'm going to get a full understanding of why I feel the way that I feel. The same mechanics operate with ourselves. I'm labeling my emotions, understanding myself and I'm calming myself down through the process. And then with step three, I need to figure out what it is that I need to do. Well, I'm going to have this conversation, but I'm not going to argue. I'm going to use compassionate curiosity and actually move the conversation forward. Very well said, man. Thank you for that.

Kind of a two-part question to finish up. In your opinion, what is your definition of determination and how does that apply to the art of negotiation? I would say determination is when you make an agreement with yourself and you keep the promise. That's it. You know, it's like we have an internal negotiation with ourselves. I come to an agreement. I commit. I shake hands with myself and I stick to it.

And that's the thing. A lot of times people reason from where they currently are to the conclusion, but I reason from the conclusion back to where I currently am. So I'm going to make a determination in myself, what is the outcome, what is the end goal? And I commit to that. And then what I've recognized in my life and what I've seen with other high performers is that no matter how legitimate and how much information you have going into some level of adversity or challenge, we will almost always underestimate how hard it will be. You know, from a distance looking at a mountain, it's like, I can climb that mountain. As you start to get closer to that mountain, you're like, damn, that mountain's big. I didn't realize how many mountain was, right?

How many obstacles? Exactly. I remember what time I was in Arizona and I said, oh, there's a mountain. I want to climb that mountain. Turned out the mountain that I thought was close was very far away because it's huge. And I get to one peak and I look and then I look up. There's another peak. I was like there was another one.

I didn't realize how hard it was. But for me in life, when I think about determination, it's like, no, I've committed to this outcome. And so, yeah, there are going to be times where it's tough. There's going to be times when I don't. feel good, but regardless of whatever it takes, I'm going to get there until I have done the work to earn the right to say that it's impossible. A lot of times we say it's impossible, but really it is just very difficult. But you have to earn the right by actually trying. So I start from the conclusion and then figure it out from there. I love it because when I first started this,

I thought determination was hustle culture. I thought it was working myself to the bone a thousand miles an hour every single day. And when I quickly realized that is the opposite of determination. eye wash. See, eye wash is a baseball term because eyewash does nothing. Yeah, baseball players would be like, oh, that's eyewash. That means it's not doing shit. It's not doing anything. And when I realized that and understood that one day it's going to be 100%, but then the next day, I'm going to wake up and I'm not going to feel as good. Determination might be 10%. Yeah. It might be 20%. But you know what it's not, it's not sitting down and doing zero. That's not what determination is. So we

to your point, you make that verbal contract with yourself, you work through it, but then you stick to what you said. I want to give the audience another example. So yesterday, I'm a good buddy, Jeff Delaney on. He's one that gets all my hormones balanced. He helps me with my nutrition. He took me from 225 pounds in December to, you know, 188 pounds. And, you know, I'm a little bit heavier now because I fell off track, you know, but I met with him and we got back on track. But my point is, gosh, my point is, like, I just thought that it was just a simple decision and it never is. There's always obstacles.

So we meet yesterday here and then I went back to his office and we created a plan. And last night, my beautiful wife, Jackie, I love you, baby, says, I want something sweet. I'm like, okay, what would you like? We have Halloween candy down there. I can bring you up a little, you know, Nestle. I go, whatever you want, because I want ice cream. I said, oh boy, the devil is in my life right now because, hey, homie, I'm not turning down ice cream, Kwame. Like, I'm, I won't turn it down.

That is ice cream and pizza, you know, are my things. And if Coke zero wasn't like zero calories, that would be another thing that it couldn't turn down. So I said to her, I said, okay, so what I'm hearing you say is you want me to order you ice cream. And she goes, yes, what do you mean? You're not having any. I said, no, because I met with Jeff today, I'm back on track. I'm back on track. I made a commitment to myself and I made a commitment to him.

And I'm not going to go back on that commitment five hours into it, right? So I woke up today and it was easier to have that meal that I'm supposed to have. And then the second meal that I'm supposed to have now, I'm not even tripping off of it because I made the hard decision last night. Yes. Like I always give these anecdotes and stupid stories for the audience and like sometimes they go, okay, here's Sean going again about some stupid story. But like, this is it. I made a contract with myself. Yes.

And I'm accountable to somebody else. Like I need to have a shift and I need to have a result from today's way in to next week's way in. And I can't get there by breaking my word. 100%. And to add to that too, one thing that really helps to accelerate the process of discipline is having a conversation with yourself after you've done the right thing. Because think about this. Let's say you ate the ice cream. Then this morning you would feel bad.

You would feel disappointed. Right. We know that. We often don't log the pride that we feel after the fact. Because I started to, as I was journaling, I started to realize a pattern. I would have these intense cravings for whatever it is I'm trying not to do at the moment. And then I recognize that the pleasure would have been short term, but the regret would have been long term. And then I realized that, wait a second, if I decide not to do this thing in the moment, then the pride that I feel is long term too.

So then I started to pay attention to the cravings. And I said, wait a second. I'm thinking this is so hard, but honestly, the craving lasted for 45 minutes. So I just need to be strong or distract myself for 45 minutes. I can do that. And so once I started to become very, very clear on what the difficulty is and what the payoff was, I'm like, oh, it's like it is irrational for me to not be strong at this point because I don't like the way that I feel after the fact.

I do like the pride that I feel. So I started to really take the time to appreciate that and savor that positivity. And it made discipline a lot easier. It's so true because she didn't finish it and she hands it to me. I'm like, what's this? She goes, can you take it downstairs? I go, absolutely. Hey, bro.

Hey, listen, call me. Usually I'm like, all right, I'm going down. So I was like, what? It's like not even an eighth of a cup left. It's not going to hurt me, right? But where does that end? For me, it's not about the ice cream. I'll have ice cream on a cheat day.

Like, it's fine. Okay, fine. But I went downstairs and I celebrated the fact that I looked at it. I put it in the garbage can and I laughed at it. I'm like, you didn't get me tonight. You didn't get me tonight. You know, what it really was I chose myself and I chose to keep my word. And for everybody listening, no matter what it is you're chasing in life,

whether you're writing a book, doing a TED talk like Kwame's done that I've done, whether you're starting a show or whatever it is you're doing, if you just keep your word to yourself, there's nothing in this world that you cannot do because keeping yourself, keeping yourself accountable and keeping your word to yourself is the easiest thing to break

because no one else can see it. Right. But you ultimately pay the price. You ultimately pay the price for breaking your word, man. So, Hugh, thank you so much, Tommy, for coming on to the show. Can you tell the audience where they can find you?

Yes, well, connect with me on, follow me on Instagram and LinkedIn. If you, excuse me, of course, of course I need to burp. Sean, I was holding it for a long time. It's, it's a man show. Go ahead. Here it comes. Here it comes.

Like I was speaking with it for the last eight minutes. I'm like, come on, brother. Was that French fries? What the hell? Yeah, what is it? So annoying. But yes, check me out on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you, if you're interested in consulting, coaching, negotiation, training, keynotes,

check out my website, Kwamechristian.com. And also check out negotiate anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world because we have people like Sean French coming on the podcast dropping with. I can't wait. It's going to be fun. I can't wait, baby. I can't wait, baby. I can't wait, dog. Blue audience, thank you for sitting in and listening to this. If you're not already a subscriber, please hit follow the show. And if you are and you love what you heard, share the show with somebody you know, love and trust, maybe your spouse, maybe your child. so you guys can get on the right side of negotiation and having the conversations that are hard to make your relationships better. And until next time, guys, stay determined.