Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - Pamela Anderson’s Resurgence in The Last Showgirl – Creators Robert Schwartzman & Kate Gersten

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

How a “The Last Show Girl” Writer and Producer find purpose & creativity, and rely on family in the face of uncertainty. Show Notes: In this intimate episode of The Determined Society, Shawn sits down with Hollywood multi-hyphenates Robert Schwartzman (musician, filmmaker, and actor) and Kate Gersten (TV writer/producer) for a powerful conversation on love, legacy, and the stories that shape our lives. From iconic family roots (hello, Coppola lineage) to redefining success through marriage, parenthood, and loss, Robert and Kate reflect on what it means to live authentically while chasing the creative life. They open up about: -The emotional toll and beauty of parenting a child with medical needs -How their professional lives in music, television, and film have evolved -Why family history can inspire — but not define — who we become -The courage it takes to pause and be fully present -Navigating grief and honoring those we’ve lost This one’s as soulful as it gets — filled with wit, wisdom, and unforgettable vulnerability. Resources: https://www.hulu.com/movie/the-last-showgirl-b9060a3b-9728-47e0-8614-fb3767ea9e17 Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You're about to make a trade. Which you do you listen to? Is it get optioning those options? Or let's do a little research. Learn more at finra.org slash trade smart. This movie was such a carrying like a bunch of like plates with your feet and your hands every day to just make sure we could get to day one. Getting Pamela eventually to say yes.

I don't know why I always sort of thought that Shelley needed to be played by somebody who could contort themselves into a vulnerable woman, you know, of a certain age. Pamela was just so naturally that. The idea of a woman who is in a show that she does not realize it's going to close. We had amazing actresses attached to it, but they never really had the right quality. They never had that vulnerability that Pam brought to it. Robert Schwarzenen, Kay Gerson, welcome the show. I'm super excited to talk to you guys today about the last show, girl, amazing nostalgic movie that really plays on later.

in life, comeback stories or development, and really pushes that envelope there. So just welcome, man. Thanks for guys to know. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Oh, genius, genius. You guys have done some amazing things. Like, you know, you have done so many different movies. You come from, you know, a family that's, you know, well-established that Coppola's here. And, you know, I believe your mom's Tally Shire, too, right? So I grew up watching her. Yeah. You know, like, that's so cool. It's funny because I never, she's always just been my mom, you know? Yeah. But it's funny. But it's funny when you have a, when you're a, when you're

parent is an actor. Actors are different than directors and producers. Actors are in the front of the camera, so they're recognizable. Right. And then they take on a life of their own because you know them for a role possibly if they like, if there's a movie that's a hit or a show, you can't escape, but knowing them as like, yo, Adrian. But as a kid, as you grow up, you start to realize, oh, she means something to people as this character. And then you, when you see her on a TV or on a movie, you really start to, it's, you have to kind of, you wear two hats. You're like, oh, that's my mom, but oh my God, she's an amazing actor who's done so many cool things. But we still fight all the time.

Oh, I bet. And you probably feel the same way about your uncle. Well, we get into it. Yeah, but like, with your uncle too, right? Francis Ford Coppola, like you seem as your uncle. But then to everybody else, he's, you know, this director, you know, he's a legend, right? So it's, you know, it's probably the similar thing. If you, I bet you if you talk to, like, let's just say there's a forward-facing personality

in the entertainment business that you know of. And then maybe they have, like, family members you might. might meet along the way and they might have stories, but also people who probably work for those people closely, like an assistant who's with them every day, starts to see the personality shine through, not of the person we know of their work, but just their human life. So you would hear stories from anyone around anyone who's with them regularly because you build up a closer relationship to their human, who they are as people. Yeah. And I think at the root of it, right, I look at people like, this is your profession, right? That is their profession. But the

root of it as a human being, right? Sometimes. I want to think so. Yeah. I mean, you would want to think that, right? Yeah, yeah. But like, I always try to look at that when I'm having conversations with people, like, these are human beings.

They're just really cool. They do really cool. They have really cool jobs, and they're really good at it, you know? And speaking of that, I mean, your work is genius, you know? Like, you did an amazing job in the last show, girl, but then we were talking, you know, off camera about, you know, the good place. Like those are those are well-written films. How did you, how did you, and again, you know, one of you can take it first.

It doesn't really matter what order, but how did you decide this is the route you wanted to go in your career? Well, I grew up loving the theater. My family was all in the theater. I grew up in New York City and I went to the theater all the time. My dad was a stage manager. My mom was a dancer before she was in advertising. My sister was an actress, and I just loved going to the theater, and I loved musicals, I loved plays, and I always knew that I wanted to be involved, and I, I, I, when it comes to what your

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writing and just always knew I exactly I just like loved it so much it was pure passion I love it I love it oh you big guy like how did I get how did I find my way into it in a way I mean I know it's part of like you know because like there's some there's some people that don't follow the family business right so what about it for you what drew me in yeah I mean I think it was I'm always drawn to things that like being able to have an idea whatever the idea and then put it into action and like see the result and see it happen, it could be anything. It could be like, let's paint this room red. Like if there's an idea and it excites you and then you can turn it into reality, that's amazing.

So it could be a company idea, a technology idea, a film idea, a song, anything, a planning a family trip. Yeah, sure. When you know, it's like, whatever. It's like, it's the thing. Yeah, it's like that's the fun of it. And I think creating for, I weirdly, I mean, maybe it's not a surprise, but it's like, I always talk about family businesses. Like people, the movie industry is a business.

The music industry is a business. And there are, it is a profession. And when you are growing up around it, you start to learn about this profession and gain your own perspective and what excites you about this profession. And then when you chase that profession for yourself, that's no different than if I grew up in a family that had any specific. thing they did because it was generations of let's just take we take a certain job like I mean like cobblers yeah no if I if you were going to do it sounds so stupid but if you're going to replace your roof in your house and you're looking up companies that are out there and there's a company that

was it's a family owned business that's been doing roofs for like 60 years you'd probably work with that company right right of course there's history and this he learned from his dad learned from his dad you pass on this like understanding of of this what this job is similar like film families, music families. You know, you grow up learning, watching, shadowing, absorbing, and you apply it to your own passions and excitements for the stories you want to tell. And you just gain a know-how and perspective of how the industry works. So that's how I look at it. But I just really fell in love. I always wanted to make movies growing up. I grew up in Los Angeles. I don't think we grew up in a family that was like pushed into the industry. I didn't show up at like an

audition as a five-year-old trying to be in a movie or something. which is fine if you are, but that wasn't really where the passion was. It was watching movies, listening to music. You fall in love with the thing you're making. And the things that you're exposed to, I think that that's a big part of it. It's like when you're in a family that really is passionate about that thing, you're exposed to a lot of film. He was probably exposed to tons and tons of movies that most little kids aren't exposed to.

I was exposed to a ton of theater that most old kids weren't exposed to. And that just exactly like Robert was saying really forms who you are as a person from a very young age. I love those answers because in your analogy with, you know, whether it's acting or roofing, you're probably going to end up in the family business because you understand it. And it's just a way of life. The thing that I really love hearing about your perspective is the love that you have for it and what it creates for you. I think that along the lines, and we'll get into the movie here in a bit, But when individuals are choosing a career path or chasing something down that's new to them,

it comes with a vision. It's a seed, right? And they want to nurture that thing because they have a feeling of what it's going to look like. Sometimes it doesn't end up like that. And it ends up completely different, but it's always nice to experiment in it and see how it grows. To your point, right? It's like, wow, that was pretty darn cool, right? You know, it's interesting, too, because the jobs that we've chosen or the career paths we've chosen,

I mean, maybe this is actually, maybe there is a difference, actually, with my kind of focus and Kate's. Like, Meeking Movies is a community, like building an experience, community collaborative experience. Like, if you like being with people, some people don't want to be social. They're really antisocial. They don't like to put themselves, like,

I'm sure, you know, I don't want to speak for Kate, but if you're working on a screenplay and you like to just put on headphones and go in a corner and work or go in a space and just focus, on your work. That's probably, you probably have your own relationship with the material by yourself before it gets into a community experience where it's being discussed. I love the community getting people together, like hosting a party or something, is very similar to making a movie.

You're bringing these people together to create an experience together. So I just really like that environment. And so I seek that out all the time. So even sitting here with you talking is this, we're community, we're sharing in this experience together. So the jobs making movies is about bringing people together. It's really hard to make a movie all by yourself. Right. You really have to work with a cinematographer on the lighting.

Simmetographers have to work with gaffers and your electric team to discuss how you're going to set up this shot. So it is, there's a trickle down of communicating ideas to each other. So it's about community. Music, I spent a lot of time doing music for a long time, touring. You're living at a bus with all. all these people every day you wake up, you know, you're like sharing water bottles to brush your teeth every morning for 14 years. Like, you're just like living on the road. I'm sure. So any job you think of where people are kind of like, yeah, like moving away from their families, living with this

community, coming back into their family environment. It's a different, it's a certain kind of lifestyle. And you either like it or you don't. Yeah, theater is the same same way where you're really making a family of the people that you're working on a show with. And you're in this little microcosm of a world that you've created with this specific group of people. Same way with filmmaking, it's the thing that I loved the most about doing shows all over the country. When I was an actor, it was like, it's the thing that's so great about being a part of the theater community in New York city or anywhere. It really is a special group that you feel like you're collaborating with on this very sensory level that's really exciting and just fun and feels like family in the best way.

And actually, Francis has a great quote that I always really loved that he says that creating a group of people on a film is like creating your own little utopia. And I really always, It's so visceral that idea of coming together with people to create this perfect world to make a piece of art. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th.

And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encrypt. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.com. That's amazing. How does that translate for you? Because writing, it's a little more intimate, like Robert said.

How does that utopia shape in your mind and in your process when it's pinned the paper? I guess that I'm in my own little special utopian world with my characters. And so I don't really feel very alone when I'm in my process. And then I really love the process of. actually seeing things come to life. I love being in a writer's room with a number of other writers. That's a very fun process for me. I love being in pre-production for a television show or for a movie. I love that, you know, collaborative situation, whether it's with producers, if I'm developing a television show or something, it's like, I just like working with other people. And I think that as a

writer, it's helpful to be able to interface with other people and communicate well and be able to feel like you're in this collaborative spirit with other people. That's awesome. And I'm going to ask this question because I'm intrigued. So when you're in your own utopia with these characters you're writing about, do you have your find yourself like just lost in those characters and really just kind of feeling those emotions of what they're feeling as you're writing? Yeah, absolutely.

I am. I'm working on a couple of projects right now that are really one of which is very personal to me about my childhood. And the people who I grew up with and I'm having all these like memories. of people who were in my life as a child and re-analyzing these situations that I sort of, you know, that I sort of had had ideas about when I was little and now I'm sort of re-evaluating as I've gotten older, which is also the process that I had on the last showgirl. When I wrote it originally, it was, you know, very much that there was a part of Shelly that

was my mother and a part of Hannah that was me. And my mother worked very late at night all the time. We weren't estranged the way that they are. But my mom, you know, had a very successful career that was really away from our home and she was away a lot. And so I was with the neighbors all the time. But I also with my dad, who I loved. But basically, now I'm a mom. And so now I'm a mom. And so now I can look at the character of Shelley. And when we were writing the screenplay, I was already a mom. So I could look at the character of Shelley through a much more compassionate sort of lens and be able to sort of reanalyize the relationship between Shelley and Hannah from that perspective,

from the perspective of being a mother, who also is away sometimes. Yeah. That's interesting because as you're walking through that, we all kind of look. And in your profession, you're able to reconcile those characters through your childhood, right and have a different perspective look at it differently there's a there's a little bit of healing that goes on with that right yeah like yeah i mean it's a very fun therapy process sometimes and you know not all all of that needs to make the page but um totally you know that's cool it's awesome so okay the last show girl amazing cast right pamela Anderson Jamie lee Curtis brenda song kieran in

your brother jason wow like walk me through that whole process and you know you're perspective on the movie and, you know, how it turned out because it was awesome, right? Those, those, that is not, that is not a small cast. That is some dynamic individuals. Yeah, I mean, I think, um, to walk through it, I mean, there's, there's a life before the film team got involved, right? Like there's, there's the right, you know, Kate's experience with the material, with Las Vegas, with the Jubilee, you know, just inspiration. You're, so, you're absorbing all this great Las Vegas kind of inspiration. Yeah, do you want to talk about?

Yeah, I can talk about the screenplay. So, I mean, I went, I was in Las Vegas. Well, I was studying at Juilliard. I went to Las Vegas for a brief period of time when I was in like 2013. And I was writing the pattern between songs for this one woman's show. It's like very hacks. But it also was actually not like, it was just very much. She was a vocal impersonator.

Celine Dion was the producer of our show. And we were taking over the Thursday, Friday and Saturday night performances of Jubilee. which was the last standing classic showgirl review in Las Vegas. And I went to see Jubilee while I was working on this show, and I was only there for like two weeks. But I was instantly captivated by what was happening in Jubilee because it was like 85 women on stage. I knew there were like 40 people in the crew,

and then there were like 15 people in the audience, which I just thought was crazy. And it was, and we had our houses were like sold out. And our show was very sort of like, it was a vocal impersonator, but she was really sexy and cool. And it was just sort of an interesting, I was interested to observe the way that Vegas is changing and how what was sexy then is different than what's sexy now.

And I went home and I immediately like, I mean, before I even went home, I spoke to the dancers in our show. I spoke to the dancers in Jubilee. I developed a relationship with this woman, Diane Palm, who was the company manager of Jubilee and started talking to her in depth. and really just was very compelled by the idea of a woman who is in a show that she does not realize is going to close. That's like this legendary show and that she's been in for, you know, going on 30 years. And it just struck me and I went home and I wrote the play and the play was like, you know, we started doing workshops of it as soon as I got back to New York and it was under option for Broadway for the West End for years and years.

We had amazing actresses attached to it, but then, but they never really had the right quality. They like never had that child like innocence. They never had that vulnerability that Pam brought to it. And it never got produced because of that, because there was just never the right actress there to play that role. The thing that I love most about it, and I want to share it with both of you, is what you had mentioned, she's been a part of the show for 30 years, has no idea it's about to close down. and it parallels life so well. Because at any given moment,

you are forced into an identity shift, right? When I was younger, I called it an identity crisis, and that's very, you know, there's no power in that, right? So as we move on in life and we're challenged to reinvent ourselves later on, is there is, it's an identity shift. And if you look at this, like, there is a massive grind going on, but, you know, behind the scenes without you knowing it. So it just kind of kind of force you into a moment, like, oh, wow,

this is potentially reality. How do I react from this? And that's one of the things that I love about the show is, you know, my show and then even the movie, right? It's, there's a massive intersection there because we just don't know. And that movie just shows that like later on you can be challenged and there's going to be a little bit of a change. But how you respond to it is the other thing. You know? The, so the fun part of this movie.

that people maybe know or don't know is that like there's some family ties to this whole backstory. So like Gia, so my cousin's Gia. My sister is Kate. So we're all family. And loss. So I didn't know that.

Oh yeah, yeah. I'm married to his brother. My brother, Matt. Yeah. Matt. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Yes. Okay. So it's the way you hope it happens where like if family works in a certain industry or certain things they focus on if things can align nicely, it's great if it works out that way.

Sometimes there are projects that just don't make sense. You know, maybe there's something you're someone's working on for another company and there's no room to work on it. But Gia was making indie films as a film, as a director. And as a, as like a brother-figure cousin, I always felt protective. My hope was just that Gia would get to work on a project that she was really passionate and excited about. Because you should, if you're making an indie movie, you should love the thing you're doing. Sure. And what, just on that sort of objectively, sometimes projects take like years and years to make.

And it can be, you're kind of burning a lot of time, not getting your next thing going. So put that over there. But like, so I was doing music for a long time. And then I started producing packaging and directing feature films. And I was making like a movie every year. That was my goal. Like one movie a year. And keeping that flow.

And Gia was like, how are you making it? all these movies so quickly. And I was like, well, because there's a certain way of like finding material that kind of works in the way where you can put movies together faster financially. If a movie's bigger and you have bigger talent, usually you're inviting in more voices, more things that take more time to make. It just happens. Like any movie, I mean, even if you sold a movie to big studio, there's a whole set of

circumstances that then have to invite their opinions in and it takes more time. If you make an indie and you can find a budget that is more appropriate and you can get the right pieces in place faster, you can create more speed and like output. Makes sense. So in Gia like kind of waiting for the next thing to happen, what I was saying to her was like, let's find something. This is before Kate and Gia had time together where she discovered that Kate had written this great play. But it was really like, let's find something we can just go shoot quickly and not wait and talk about. this forever so there were you know in that out of that comes what about a da da da da you're kind of waiting for somebody to come along gea calls me one day i don't know what their experience was together i wasn't

involved in that but gia's like i think there's a great project that kate has that i know about that's set in las vegas she wrote it as a play she's now adapting as a feature i think it's amazing we should this could be one that could fit into this model of let's go make things right it's set mostly in the backstage area. Why is that important? Because when you go in front, you have a big audience, you have a lot of set pieces.

Kate wrote it as a play. Plays are done on stage. There's a certain way you would write a play, right? Yeah. It's consolidated, right? So it's about the characters, the way they interact. But I'm just saying,

I'm as a producer, like I'm looking for stories that you can tell in an appropriate, like, that fit a budget, right? Because you can execute that story, right? If you find the right one

that you can marry with a certain budget level. The last showgirl wasn't a micro budget. It wasn't like that indie down and dirty version of what we had originally talked about. That kind of a movie is, it's hard to pull off the last showgirl, even though it's mostly consolidated locations. There are company moves.

If you watch the movie, there's a house, there's this backstage, there's the upstairs, there's a stage, there's a restaurant. Those are company moves, right? So that's still moving your crew around. There's still cost to do that. But, you know, where the complications come in are making sure the quality is there because you need these wonderful outfits.

The costumes have to really be the ones that we would imagine in a show that we believe was of this level. So to do that you have to get supporters. So we were so fortunate, but we were talking about do we shoot this in L.A. and a theater. Like, thinking about the versions of this movie that could have happened are crazy to me because the version that we made is so the right. version but there was so many last minute tiny little decisions that happened at the buzzer that were so meaningful to the feeling of the film that helped lift up the story and help

elevate things in a way that i think for kate's material really did write by the story that was in her head and the story that we were hoping to achieve you know in this creative way i think gia also is very visual person so like a lot if you look at the film it's there's a certain style to the cinematography was shot on film it's hard to make a movie on film and 18 days because if you said why why is that right it's because sometimes with film you can have things go wrong with it in the processing of film or the transfer film when you develop film if there's any little light leak problems you lose the whole thing so if you have jamie lee curtis for a few days and jamie runs off to her next job as she should you can't get her back right so you're losing

that setup hopefully it's not a oneer it was there was a oneer through the casino if you lose the oneer what do you have you have no you can't cut to anything Wow. So I'm just saying there were, we were in the universe brought us wonderful things that really supported our film. And I think we, you know,

this was the movie that was meant to be made. I think everyone's really happy with it. You asked about cast, that, if you kind of did a documentary about the casting this movie, that would be a great kind of little mini doc. Just because we, you have to make any movie. It's so, the industry, it's so,

you could do a whole episode on this. The industry is its own worst enemy. The film, is its own worst enemy. It trips over itself every day all day long. People complain about not working, this, that, and the other. But the circumstances typically, we're creating circumstances that are not helping things happen. Okay. Like responding to emails quickly, like from agents and lawyers. The amount of time it takes to negotiate a film contract is a joke. Like, I'm serious, like, how long? How long does that take? Like, way, way too long, months, months, months, months, months.

Like, but here, let's go, let's do, like, pretend I came to you and I was like, hey, we, I got this great indie, where you invest in it? You'd say, who's in it? Tell me about it. Oh, well, we have da-da-da-da and da-da-da-da-in it. Really, that's amazing. You have da-da-da-da in it? Da-da-da-a-a-a-old. Yeah, exactly.

Great. I'm tracking. And then eventually, eventually, if you didn't know me, right, you would want to see da-da-da-da's really in it. Just to me da-da-da-as contract. Right. I don't have it yet. because it's not negotiated, because I can't get the deal done, because it's taking months. Because why? Because if you're an indie, you're not getting paid a gazillion dollars.

So what motivations anyone have to get the deal done? That's a trickle-down problem, because if I have to go get my financing, I need to show my investors that they're attached to my film to get it. Because I'm sure people have been earned and hurt in the past by bad, you know, like not honest production people. So we hope we're running a more upfront operation with how we make movies and hopefully the track record shows. But I'm just saying it took, it's such a like, like this movie was such a carrying like a bunch of like plates with your feet and your hands every day. Right. To just make sure we could get to day one. And and that's like the cast, you know, like getting Pamela eventually to say yes.

And it was Pamela wanted to do it. You speak to. Yeah. Well, what was amazing was that. You know, we had just started our process of trying to figure out who was going to play Shelley. And my husband Matt, Robert's brother, watched the panel. Shout out. Shout out to Matt.

You. Shout out to Matt. He's going to love him. He's going to love it. He also happens to be the one who gave my script originally to my play to Gia and said, oh, you're into Las Vegas. She wrote a play in Las Vegas. You know, shout out to Matt Shire.

Dude, he's killing it out there. He's great. Matt connected his wife with his cousin. Yeah. He put us together. Can you believe he put them together? So then he also, the other thing that Matt did was he watched Pamela's documentary Love Pamela on Netflix.

Okay. A little documentary that no one had heard of. It was right when it, I think it was the first weekend. I'm a jokester. No, I get it. I do think it was right when it came out. No one saw this documentary. Yeah.

No one saw it. I don't know how Matt discovered this freaking documentary. He found this little unnamed. This little da-da-da. You may have heard of it. You may have not. But it was like the first weekend. it was out on Netflix, he watches it. He said, he was like, Gia, I know who your Shelley is. And he was like,

just watch this. Just watch this. And then, and then you talk to Kate about it. And then Gia texted me, she was like, just watch this. And because I think that, you know, we all have an idea of who Pamela was. And I think that in my head, I don't know why I always sort of thought that Shelly needed to be played by somebody who could contort themselves into a vulnerable woman, you know, of a certain age. And Pamela was just so naturally that from like the get-go when we saw her in this doc. I was like, well, this is amazing. We all were just so aligned.

And but then it was a process of trying to get it to her. Her first agent, like, rejected it within an hour. Oh, wow. That's pretty quick. Without reading it, it was literally just like. I should touch on that because that's come up a lot in these like sort of, it's part of her journey for this her new, this new

taking on new types of roles as an actor. Like, I think it's possible, you know, I look at the way the industry operates. I spoke about time and things get, emails get lost, things get overlooked. People don't get responded to. It's so everyday business 101 here.

I just don't, I think like, for an independent film to just out of the blue offer the film to Pamela was maybe different, was new for maybe the team to see these kinds of projects coming in. So for whatever reason, it just maybe just didn't feel real enough at that time to really consider it heavily is my political way of answering this question. But it's so common, it's so often that you have to find ways into people through other ways, right? So it's the equivalent of you ever seen the movie, um, Bofinger? Yes, long time. Okay, it's such a good movie,

such a random, but it was Steve Martin. You seen Bo Finder? Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's so good. I think Bowfinger is like a whole other, it's like on another level now. It's like amazing. But yeah, it's like it's not, it's like there's always some odd way someone ends up in a movie or you go through someone else. A friend knows somebody and but that's how like, you know, Pamela's son, Brandon kind of helps manage and oversee aspects of her business. And luckily he looked at the material, took a closer look at what was being made and really gave it a gave it a, gave it, had the team really look at and give us the time. And eventually she really was excited about the film.

Because it's a great role, obviously. Kate wrote a great role for Pamela as a relaunch of her creative life. And Gia, as a filmmaker, spoke to Pamela stylistically. So there was enough there for her to say yes. This movie, what's interesting about Last Showgirl, is that it was made in a way outside the system, which is really interesting to talk about. because I think more movies have to be made this way,

I think for them to preserve their integrity and identity and get made faster and just happen. Right. So what I mean is like an idea. I'm not saying that we didn't work with agencies or collaborate with great people because we had great support. But there's a point where you create momentum with anything. And then people jump on.

And they're like, oh, this is happening, right? It's like totally human nature. You have an idea for a startup company. People maybe they like, like your idea, but they're not sure how it's going to be executed at first. Oh my God, you've already launched your product. You've got this many users. Hey, man, how can I get involved? Total human nature, right, to find that momentum point. But like, we, you know, Gia had grown up, fortunately, she grew up in Los Angeles, an industry town. She had met Jamie and knew they had, you know,

her, Gia growing up in L.A., her daughter went to school together, took a Hail Mary. Hey, Jamie, would you look at this script? Pamela's going to play the lead. Jamie was so excited. about it. Absolutely. I would love to be part of this. She loved the material. She loved the character. If it didn't make sense for it. If a role doesn't make sense for somebody, you can't just jam them in it. Sure. It's not going to work at the end of the day. You have to you, the audience, have to believe everyone in the film, where else it doesn't work. Yeah. So you have to make decisions. You can't just put someone in it because they're famous. It's the kiss of death if it's not the right match. You see through it. But I think what people like about last showgirls, it does

feel like a slice of a world that they can believe in. And the casting was, was, it was right, as you said earlier. Forget who's, forget the name and what level they are. It was just really good casting that was all done very direct to, to, there was no casting director specifically that gave a list of actors. In the beginning, we did kick around ideas with the casting consultant, but we didn't have, we didn't continue that path forward. We really went direct to actor eventually and just kind of bypassed that that way of doing it. Sourceful, sure. And Dave Batista had taken a general with Gia years ago, and I had said to Gia, what about

Dave Batista for Eddie? And then I said, hit him up on Instagram. Like, just message him. Yeah, yeah. So she literally messaged Dave Batista on Instagram, and he responded or whoever works with him responded very quickly and said, just send me the script directly. He loved it because he expressed to Gia wanting to do like more exciting, challenging roles that are different than the roles he was known for at that time.

and emotional. More emotional characters. And just it was an interesting choice to have Eddie played by Dave. And it works when you see the movie you're like, that's amazing. Yeah. But Dave having the wig,

he had great ideas to create this character. Yes, he had that wig made on his own. We didn't even see it until he showed up in Las Vegas with it wearing it. And we were like, oh my God, is that not your real hair? It looks so real. That's where,

I just think that's the fun part of the film is like looking back is like, you know, the strikes were going on in this industry. The WGA and two strikes. Two strikes were going on. We had to be very mindful of the rules of the strike and supportive of those who were out of work. And we had to wait and see what was going to happen.

And we weren't given, we didn't get a waiver as an indie. We were the, we were a waiver. We're the poster boy of the waiver, but we never got one. Waivers were given movies of multiples our budget, right? Right. That wasn't what it was meant to be, right? So I can't speak to that. It's a political problem.

But I can just say that we waited out until there was a resolution. right and then we were able to re-engage all parties and begin this process and we were we shot right after the new year's right after new year's day like literally a day later we're all in Vegas that means there's no real prep time we moved our location literally after already doing a scout we had scouted the movie a tech scout is where you have your crew your department heads show up and walk through every location and make notes about how you're going to shoot light it we'd done that for a whole other hotel in location. And then I called Gia and I was like,

this is going to sound crazy. But another Plan B Hotel just finally got approved. We're going back. We're going to re-scout. You should move it there. She's like, are you, this is insane. It's like Christmas tomorrow. Yeah.

Got on a plane that day. She went back out, rescout. I went and scouted for her with our production designer, said, you've got to do this. She flew in the next day and we moved it to this. So there's a lot of these last many things. But that's the fun of the movie was like, it was like this great balancing act.

but I think that's how fun movies get made that we remember in a way great stories come out of these movies that we remember but um the Brenda song Kieran and Shipka Jason was like not maybe going to be in it like that day got a plane and went out there has this crazy

look but it worked out for the film but yeah anyway I'm just kind of these are the fun stories that don't really get discussed but you know what I love because I'm listening to all this right and I'm going deeper than a movie here right like I'm hearing everything you're saying We're ready to go there.

Come on. Let's go deep. This is life. Yeah. There's, you know, using the network, like in this case, it was a lot of family, right, to come together and build something collaborative so people can tell their stories so you can get something out and it can shoot it and people can relate to it by watching it, whether, you know, at home, like on, you know, Hulu, whatever.

But then you have this underlying current of adversity going constantly that you guys continued to push through and to find solutions to certain issues, whether it was the strike or, you know, the first no from Pamela's camp, right? All these different things. There's a lot of people that would sit there and say like, hey, this just isn't happening. Stayed the course, right? And the product was a successful movie. And the audience listening, you know, I'm really, I have a lot of faith in my audience

that when they're listening to what you guys are saying, they're taking the actual content and the ideals behind what you're saying. Like, I can apply this to my life. You know. You mean outside of the industry? Absolutely. For anything, really. For anything, because it's universal.

Yeah. Right. There's moves that you had to make. There's obstacles that were coming up constantly, you know, whether there's, you know, two organizations strike, you know, a no, a different hotel, right? All these different things that are going on gives the audience to feel like, hey, even in Hollywood, no matter what job you have, you're going through some shit and you may have to pivot

at the very last second. I hope everybody's fluid and can make this adjustment with us. So I just, I really enjoyed everything you guys were saying because that to me is that's what speaks. Yeah, it's all persistence and resourcefulness and just, you know, can do attitude. Absolutely. It definitely, yeah, I mean, you can definitely apply it to a lot of things in life.

I think, I mean, you know, problems are relative. you know, to whatever the circumstances are and everyone's individual lives. You know, everyone has their own set of hurdles they have to overcome in other film experiences. You might zoom out and look at the last showgirl and see it on Hulu, and if you don't know, the industry might think

it was made by Hulu even. I don't know people who knows how people are looking at it. Sure. We made the movie, down and dirty is a very subjective thing to say. You could say down and dirty is very, this, but for someone else, that's far from down and dirty. So I can't, I'm just saying for our own, the way we looked at this in our experiences,

there's challenges within your own set of what your own experience is, right? And that's a very personal thing. A lot of, I have a lot of filmmaker friends that have their own, have, could tell you stories about how they made films and how things happen. And if you go back in time and look at great films that were made over the years, you'd hear great stories of like, watch hearts of darkness. Like about apocalypse now, like watch like when you look at, when I talk about last show real stuff and I watch hearts of dark because I feel like so much better. I'm like, wow, like, wow, we didn't have it.

Nobody had a heart attack on our side. That was insane. So there's a lot of, yeah, I just don't want to like generalize or make this the sort of like new norm of how things happen in any way. But I do think that every film that gets made, I will say a lot of people come together. Here's like a good kind of statement that put the bow on it. studio movies, indie movies, TV prod, whatever it is. Everything has its own challenges. And it's not easy.

And there are a lot of people that come together to make it, to make everything you see. I love it. And really what it should mean to all of us is it's really important to go out there and support what people are making. Because it's so tragic if you see a movie in theaters across the country and you go in and there's like two people there. And you see the way till the end and watch the credits.

go by and you're like, wow, look at hundreds of people worked on this movie. Yeah. Like, think about that, right? Like, they made that movie so you could go there and sit there and watch it and enjoy it. That's just so cool, man. And no one's there. You're in a world now where people are using software and computer technology to, like, quickly create, like, some products, right, without all the people that go into it.

Probably, yeah, like, we're all bracing for some new version of, like, society. But it's pretty cool. I mean, I'm sure there's an appreciation for like, maybe it'll become like what vinyl is to the music industry. Like seeing all these people work on a movie like vinyl. Remember the old day when all those people were radio?

People were actually there. That's so cool, man. All those people actually worked on it. Everybody had a separate job? Maybe that's going to become the new like collectors piece thing. Interesting. But I don't know. But I just want people to know that

I want your listeners to know and your watchers to know that viewers, Watch what I'm talking about? Both. I want everyone watching this to know that it is true that like when a movie comes out, like when you make a movie and you edit a movie and you color grade a movie and mix a movie, you're watching the movie on almost like a theater size screen. So imagine why are you doing that?

Because you're creating the product to support this experience. Yeah. Right? And then it ends up like on this size screen, right? So it's odd that we still make movies. for that big experience, for that big screen, when people are really kind of going the other way. But it's so kind of amazing that people are still

keeping alive the hope of the big screen experience. I mean, I love the world. I mean, constantly I love to go. So it's important you and all the viewers out there, like when a movie is in theaters, that's not like a thing to take for granted. That movie will soon not be in theater. That may be only in theaters for one day.

At this point, it may be in theaters for three days. It may get an awards qualifying run of 10 days, right? But if it's there and you care about that experience, you should go out and see the film within that world because it's going to quickly go to digital and you're going to watch it on your TV, not the big screen. And then it's going to go to a streamer and it's going to be basically free for subscribers, right?

So yeah, I'm just kind of saying the life cycle of movie depends on the theatrical experience if you're in the business of putting movies on the big screen. If you're making something directly for a streamer, which is fine, it will not be. be for the theaters. It'll be for the subscribers. Interesting. So. Very, dude, it's awesome. Yeah, it's very, very deep. And, you know, out of the industry, we don't see it like that. We're like, oh, I can, I can say, well, that movie wasn't in

the movie theater for very long, but I don't know the reasons why. And now you've kind of given me a peek behind of what's actually going on. So go watch the damn movies, guys. Okay, eat your damn popcorn. Have your son. Well, it's funny. Well, it's interesting. I, I meet people just everyday movie goers and they're like, hey, is your movie going to be on Netflix? It's like, that's right? Yeah. But I have to always say, well, Netflix is one of many platforms that licenses content. And it may not license my film or may not license really any films that you want to see. It may be on Apple or Amazon or a Tevod platform to rent it.

So I think there's this strange cultural, almost like I feel it's important to talk about this because it's like a cultural educational thing of saying, hey, do you know what Netflix is? It's a subscription platform. That means they have to license content for it to be available for you. It means they won't have everything. You start to see a movie on Hulu is not going to be on Netflix unless it gets licensed after the Hulu window has expired.

Exactly. So I'm just kind of important for people to know that they don't kind of kick back, relax and wait for Netflix. Yeah, get your ass house. With all due respect to these great big tech companies, but I just think that, yeah, like I just think it's important to remember

that movies like Last Shore Road being made every day and they're out there in ways that don't get exposed because they don't have maybe certain talent spotlighting it Or maybe the press aren't really giving a time of day or didn't get a big festival debut, but that doesn't mean they're not there. Yeah, good point. So as we come down to the end, I want to ask you both the same question. About cilantro again?

Yes, no, it's even better. It's even better. But I want you to go first. So show is called The Determined Society, right? And it's based on this premise that every single day that we need to display determination in our own lives, whether we're building a podcast that started in our car like mine did into a big, big platform that is getting a lot of love right now. I have amazing people like you guys on my show.

Or, you know, a teacher, a writer, it doesn't matter. But everybody has to exercise a certain amount of determination every single day. So I'm going to ask you first, what does determination mean to you? Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded. So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like tea time, you. Or this tea time you.

Or even this tea time you. Said you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you. So update on Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rinse. It's time to be great.

I love this question so much. And I'm really excited to go back and listen to your podcast and listen to other episodes. Thank you. There is something about, I mean, what? I have a. always, I mean, I know this sounds cheesy. Like, I always just really loved writing. I've always just loved writing, but I have to love, be interested or like have further goals than just being like, I just want to sit down and write every day. And what gets me really excited is like

making the thing that I'm writing, because I can sit down and write and I've done this every day. for the last like billion years. Sit down and write. You're good for a billion years old. I'm like, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. Yeah, I work on it. I go to the gym.

But I really feel like having a goal after the goal is one of the big things. And having another goal after that goal and just really trying to, even though it may feel like pie in the sky or it may not feel realistic in the moment that I'm living in right now to just. just always have those further goals, those posts that I can either have, that feel like they could be tangible one day, that those are what keep me very determined in the moment when it's like seven o'clock in the morning. And I'm like, I got to go sit down. You're speaking to my soul right now. Like I love that answer. I love it because there's no finish line. Yeah, there's no finish line. And I mean, I learned that especially with making this movie. It was like, it was like we've made this movie.

Oh my God, one of my biggest dreams is come true. A movie that I wrote has gotten made was in a movie theater, you know, starring incredible actors. And it came to fruition exactly the way I've always imagined it in my head. And that's a dream come true. But what's the next one? Exactly. And it really like just stoked the fire more. Love it.

Good for you. I'm happy that you got to experience that. That's a massive goal and you got to accomplish it, but not the last of you. There's a lot more. There's a lot more coming. What about you? What does determination mean to you, Robert? Will you, I just, maybe my answer won't be like the best answer, but.

But it'll be yours. It'll be fine. Well, no, because you mentioned starting the podcast out of the car. Yeah. And then I was thinking about like how that sort of entrepreneurial spirit is what I really connect to. Because I think filmmaking is like just a startup company. Like every movie is a new startup company.

It actually is a company. you need to get investors to believe in it. But no, so I started, yeah, my sort of, like, determination was I was making films. I got totally bit by the filmmaking. Like, I want to make movies. I was doing music for, like, from, like, 18 or 17 to, like, as a profession, I was just touring and making records with Rooney, my band. And then I was like, I want to make movies and focus on filmmaking because I had grown up wanting to make movies. So that was a pivot point in my life

where I kind of paused my music, this sort of regular, consistent life I was living where it was like, could musicians live these like copy-paced lives where it's, unless you're making like perfume and like fashion brands? Right. Like you like tour, relax,

make an album or write an album and then go in the studio, make an album, release it to press, tour again, stop, make a record. It's like over and over again. So I wanted to bray, I was like, I don't, you know, I don't see myself always walking

with my acoustic guitar. And that wasn't how I envisioned my life. I was like, here's my guitar, man. I was like, I want to make movies and do bigger things. And not that music is small, but I just wanted to expand my creative life. So I started directing and I started putting together these movies. And I was like, wow, this is so liberating. I can dream up new ideas.

I can collaborate with awesome people. I can find products I love and just put them together. If it's the right thing, if I want to go make a crazy big fantasy movie and I need like a gazillion dollars, it's not going to be like an overnight thing. But that got me excited and I saw in this experience that film distribution was so broken, you could make these movies, but no one was really taken a chance to support the releases of them. So my, I was determined to create a film distribution company. So I launched a company called Utopia and we're seven years strong and we've put out a lot of movies. We've launched a lot of great filmmakers and their work and they've gone on to do great things.

So I'm proud of what we've built. because we found a world that we felt really needed more support. And then we've moved into production and stuff like that. So we've built a cool mini studio for independent film. And that's so I said when you said launch out of the car, it just kind of popped on my head of maybe my answer was something similar, which was sort of taken on an entrepreneurial idea of let's, we found a problem in an industry.

It's not making movies is not the problem, to be honest. There's so many movies that get made every year. it's not like oh man we need more movies yeah we need more movies to reach people in more creative ways that's really the problem so that's where i've kind of really focused my time in a lot of ways is like still being creative and generating opportunities creatively but also trying to solve problems in the world of film distribution so that's kind of where my split brain focuses like so yeah yeah awesome answers and thank you guys so much for coming on the show i enjoyed you both Great conversation about the movie.

Thank you. Introspective into your life, into your brain, in your brain as well. So I hope everybody's going to enjoy this. I know I'm going to enjoy listening and watching it back. And for the audience, go check out my people. Go watch The Last Show Girl. Until next time, stay determined. Next up is a little song from CarMax about selling a car your way.

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