Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - Stephen Cazares: The Menendez Brothers released on parole?

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Could the infamous Menendez brothers really walk free? Criminal Attorney and partner at Foundation Law Group, Stephen Cazares, joins The Determined Society for a mind-bending conversation that unpacks his findings, frustrations, and revelations around the high-profile case—and why new evidence might rewrite history. From crime scene inconsistencies to Hollywood influence, this episode pulls back the curtain on what really went down in one of America’s most controversial double-murder trials. With deep intel, firsthand experience, and some jaw-dropping theories, Stephen opens up about what the system missed and what might come next. This episode covers: 1. Why the Menendez case captivated the nation 2. Key inconsistencies and uninvestigated evidence 3. Hollywood’s influence on public perception 4. What new witnesses and documents reveal 5. The larger implications for justice in America If you think you know the story… you don’t. Visit Foundation Law Group: https://foundationlaw.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You're about to make a trade. Which you do listen to? Is it get optioning those options? Or let's do a little research. Learn more at finra.org slash trade smart. The Menendez case. Zero shot these guys were ever even going to be thought of getting out of prison, right? They're going to spend their life behind bars.

And now the judge resentenced them to 50 years with the possibility of parole. So now they come before the parole board. in just a couple months. Oh my God. Is this real? You never would have thought this was going to happen. Back in the day, it didn't matter. You kill your parents, especially in that type of grisly way.

Lock you up, throw away the key. Now it's like, they had it coming to them. Crazy part about it would be if they were granted parole, I would imagine they'll be on the talk show circuit, granting interviews, trying to figure out ways to monetize. Book, something, you know, a movie. Obviously, right? Maybe they'll come on the determined society.

That'd be kind of crazy, huh? So, Stephen, you're out there in the world of California, you know, criminal law attorney. Everything is allegedly, right, out there defending people. What's going on in your world right now? There's a lot going on out there. But specifically for you, you know, what are you seeing out there? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot, you know, with the change in administrations, what my practice is folks is more on kind of white collar civil and criminal defense. So a lot of like securities fraud, money laundering, tax issues,

the litigation involving fraud, and with somewhat the changes in priorities by agencies that lead those sort of practices, you know, the DOJ, the SEC. So we're seeing a little bit of a kind of change in focus from what they used to be interested in was kind of like corporate fraud, SEPA, kind of bribery, things like that. and the focus is leading away from that towards maybe more middle market kind of routine kind of fraud, you know, Ponzi schemes, you're more security fraud, things like that.

So the shifts in priorities kind of affect everybody in the market. For me, it's been pretty good, but I can see some people are kind of having difficulty adjusting it. You know, it's interesting because, like, you know, with your type of white-collar crime, it's almost like you can go to work one day and make a couple bad decisions, right? And it can land you in serious trouble and in prison, right? What about those things?

I can look back and I don't have a lot of knowledge on it, right? But I look back at like the whole GameStop thing, right? Is that something that you're kind of talking about? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, I've seen it from both sides. I was a federal prosecutor for the last. last, you know, seven years I've been on the defense side. And what I often see is people who go into an activity or a fundraise or a business or an operation well-meaning with good intentions.

And then an event, like you said, an event occurs a loss of support or some change in direction of a business that wasn't anticipated. And they try to fix it. And maybe trying to fix it without telling everybody how they're fixing it or what happened and people can start digging a hole that once you start digging it can be difficult to stop without kind of blowing things up and that's that's in my in my mind how a lot of people run into problems it's you know trying to fix things on the road without getting proper help without disclosing what's happening and it can have really catastrophic consequences for even well-mean people is there is there a reason an example that you can dive into that's public that you're allowed to talk about and that

specifically speaks to something like that someone's trying to fix something maybe doesn't tell them and then this whole fire starts that they can't stop yeah you know i mean i can even come from an experience from a case i worked on that there are in a situation you know the elizabeth holmes blood testing company well-meaning well-intentioned she was very public in her ambition and what she was trying to build, and my client, Sunny Balwani, was right there with her, helping her to build the business. But arguably, you know, one could... Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded. So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a

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It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rince. It's time to be great. Suggests that there were some decisions made with respect to dealing with regulators, not misleading the regulators, but maybe taking aggressive positions with regulators that may have triggered those regulators. I'm talking about the test in particular in the FDA. Here is when you're taking more.

oppressive positions that kind of started this push pull that ultimately led to, you know, investigations, employee blowing the SEC, DOJ, and it all kind of spiraled down into what wound up being, you know, massive criminal trials and unfortunately for them convictions. Yeah, it was an interesting thing because, you know, I mean, I live in a world where, you know, you know, you look at streaming services, right? And the thing that is very impacted that I see lately, I think we mentioned it yesterday, we were talking on the phone. It's just so crazy how Hollywood now is impacting real life, right?

And so when you have something like the Theranos trial, that was just something that happened. And then it turned into a mini-series. And then it's a largely publicized thing, right? to me it's just interesting how the streaming services in Hollywood is is actually impacting public perception of things that are, you know, not necessarily private,

but may not have heard of it if there wasn't a miniseries made on it. Oh, and it can have real consequences for the parties trying to litigate them the matter or even trial. For example, you mentioned the miniseries. Our trial for Mr. Bell's, It started in March of 2022 the exact same week that Hulu released the miniseries.

And so there were advertisements everywhere in the Bay Area. Every sign had had the Hulu show on it. And on the day the trial started when the jury is coming in to start jury selection, they drove one of those. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans.

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One of those big trucks parked right in front of the federal court in San Jose. and, you know, obviously the party has alerted the judge to this because the jurors are coming in and they're seeing that. And he actually went outside and told them to leave, which I'm not even sure is like constitutional. Like he had the authority to do. He did it. They listened and they moved on.

So, yeah, that was a real concern of ours because people are watching that series while the trial's going on. It could obviously influence their views. So that was a constant push-pull we were dealing. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, another one comes in mind is, you know, I mean, we discussed yesterday. I grew up in the Bay Area, right? And I remember, you know, the whole Menendez case.

And there was zero shot. Zero shot these guys were ever even going to be thought of getting out of prison, right? They're going to spend their life behind bars. And, you know, what was it? Last year, Netflix came out with the little mini-series. then now they're literally going up for resentencing, right? I think that happens in August, right? You know, so they were already resentenced.

So they were given life without possibility of parole originally. And in May, after all of those filings and motions and hearings, the judge resentenced them to 50 years with the possibility of parole. And once you serve a certain amount of time, you become eligible. so they're now eligible for parole. So now they come before the parole board in August. When it comes to what your family eats and drinks, you know your choices matter.

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That's right. In the parole board, they really don't like to let people out, man. You know, they, that could be, but they at least have a shot now, and it's just crazy. It's like, you're looking at this, like, oh, my God, is this real? You know? Yeah, you never would have thought this was going to happen if you were talking about this case three or four years ago, when the prior DA in LA, who was kind of a reformist, kind of started this whole process. And they actually, the district attorney filed the motion to request resentencing.

And then that DA lost this past November, lost the election. And the new DA came in and said, no, no, no, we're not going to do that. And he tried to withdraw the motion and the whole process. the judge ultimately gave the brothers their hearings and, you know, granted them the opportunity to get parole. Now, whether it happens, the parole board is tough. If you go to the parole board's website and look at the calendar, it's just hundreds of people, like on a weekly basis, like through August, it's just a, it's an impossible task for them to give everybody a real close, careful look.

but because the brothers are so famous and because this case is so unique, unlike all the rest of those people who are on that parole board list, I mean, I think they have a real shot. You do think they have a real shot, huh? Yeah, I mean, it's because the amount of time they served, and in these situations, because they committed the offenses before they were 26 years of age, and after they were convicted, the law in California changed, so that if you commit certain heinous offenses,

but you're considered a youthful offender under 26, the court is supposed to take into consideration, your age, development, other issues that may have motivated or contribute to the crime. And when that's the case, it gives you a slightly better angle in getting parole because to the extent you've engaged in rehabilitation programs, things like that, those will maybe carry a little more weight than when someone was already a fully,

at least in the state of California's view, fully formed adult and not a youthful tender. It's just wild to me, man, you know, because like I'm looking at this and I, you know, look, man, regardless of allegedly why they did it, because they never denied the fact that they did it, it was the reasoning they did it, right? And now, because of the hit many series, it gave everybody the opportunity to be like, hey, let's look at this thing again and caused mayhem and it impacted the judicial system.

Dude, that's powerful, man. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think so many things that have played into it, the media's impact on the case, you know, the kind of societal changes since these things happened. You know, the abuse issues were an issue in the original trial. And the original trial, the first trial, the trial judge wouldn't let that defense come in.

He kept it all out. It was only in the retrial where some of it came in, but not really the full extent that we're now aware of. And, you know, given what happened in the church, with the Catholic Church abuse issues and all, I think society has just changes views about whether young men can be, you know, victims of that kind of abuse. I think back then the district attorney, the trial attorney, actually told the jury, argued to the jury, young men like them can't be abused in that way, which is absurd. Right. They absolutely can. Yeah, no.

So, you know, times have changed. But you're right, though, societal changes, right? and how people perceive these types of crimes and how the public views is acceptable or not, right? So back in the day, it didn't matter. You kill your parents, especially in that type of grisly way, like lock you up, throw away the key. Now it's like, they had it coming to them, right?

And I don't truly believe that, but some people do. I mean, you get on there and you see on social media, you know, some people like, hey, you know, these kids did their time, you know? Their parents, you know, did this to them. they should get out of jail now. And it's just like, I'm looking around. I'm going, wow, and I'm wondering what your opinion is.

Let's say they go before the parole board and they do get out. Two-part question. If that process does happen, if that does happen, what's the process on the release? And then also, what type of public backlash or celebration do you foresee happening? You know, it's interesting. So if the parole board were to get to that position, and actually grant parole. And that would be after the brothers submit all of their kind of supporting information.

The DA's office would submit all of theirs. Victim impact statements could be considered. You know, there's like a risk report done of the brother in respect to whether they were violating rules in custody, things like that. All of that goes into the decision making. And if the board then says, yes, we're going to grant, because the evidence suggests that, you know, they do not present an unreasonable risk for society, the governor can still overrule them and say no. Oh, okay. Not a free pass. You know, the board can grant and the governor can take it the way.

Now, whether he would do that, who knows. but, you know, there are a lot of moving parts to this whole decision-making. And then, even then, a judge can impose conditions on the parole. Now, what those conditions would be, it can depend. You know, they would have theoretically a parole officer. There might be work requirements. You have their check-in requirements, like financial disclosure requirements. sometimes there could be you know

you get through charitable work things like that even home confinement can be a term of all of it would be probably unusual and the really crazy thing here is we I think all view the brothers together as a single unit theoretically one of them could get role

and the other could not depending on different factors so they're not necessarily subject to the same outcome because, again, they're each individual and they're going to be assessed individually. So you're talking about Gavin Newsom. Is it typical that a governor would overrule or remove the parole decision if they were granted? Is that normal?

It's happened. Really? I think there are, I think there are, in my recollection, one or two of the female Manson family Klam, I think one of them was granted parole by the board. And I think the governor overruled it by recalling correctly.

So it happens, particularly when you're talking about high-profile crimes, the Menendez brothers, the Manson family, things like that. They're so grisly. You know, it's not out of kind of character for politicians to

want to look tough on crime. You know, so they don't know about. Yeah. What, okay, so the second part of the question was, like, what, let's say that they do get granted the parole. Newsom doesn't, you know, withdraw it. And they do get out. They can get out immediately, right?

Like, it would be an immediate type situation. Yes. Yeah. It could be quick. Can you imagine a world? Like, I mean, honestly, it's crazy to me because as we mentioned, I grew up in that area. I remember it happening. It was what, 89?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was when it happened, it was, it was the dawn of court TV also. So, you know, that was really the beginning. That was really the beginning of this focus on the legal system and cameras and in courtrooms, at least in state court. Now, this was really the starting point of kind of all of that all the way through the 90s

and later the OJ trial. And yeah, this was really, really the beginning. But the crazy part about it would be if they were granted parole, kind of the media frenzy. I mean, if you imagine what it's going to be, I would imagine they'll be on the talk show circuit on, you know, granting interviews, trying to figure out ways to monetize the new variety while. A book, something, you know, a movie, obviously, right? maybe even the determined society maybe they'll come on the determined society that'd be kind of crazy huh maybe i think it would be a good move for them they if they do get out it's um go ahead no i mean i agree i mean kind of crazy i was just you know just thinking about like all these different

things like you know to your point of the media frenzy i mean it's it's it's it's gonna be massive i think it's going to be massive either way um whatever decision they make right good batter and different one gets out both gets out none of them get out i i think there's going to be a side that people are going to play and and it could potentially cause an upwork an uproar out there right do you do you see anything potentially happening if they do get out like what what do you see the that that frenzy being locally you know it's it's always present like throughout this whole resensencing a process. It's been pretty top of mind for most of the community, local news even. I've been on top of it pretty much step by step, actually in the courtroom for every hearing and

reporting it out. So it's still a headline that will follow. I just think for the brothers, though, this is really a huge moment because in the parole system, if you don't get it, the first time, the board can then make a decision. Well, when you retry in three years, five years, seven years, and given the age of where the brothers are at, you know, if they don't get it now, the clock is running. Yeah. You don't come back for several years, which is really tough. They're in their 50s, right?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So I'm 46, and I know they're older than me. Yeah, they're older than myself as well. I think they're in like late 50s, if I recall, correct? That seems mid-the-late 50s. That seems about right. Yeah, yeah.

That'd be crazy. And just like, you know, I'm trying to think of like all the other things too because they're sitting there like, obviously, of course they want to get out, but what do they do? Who's going to hire them? Right? Like they, I just, all these things, man, I'm just like very, I'm not saying it to be funny, though. I know it's a chuck and we're both laughing about it, but it's like, damn, like, really think about that.

Like, what kind of quality of life are they going to have if, in fact, they do get out? They're going to have nobody. Well, they do have, interestingly, I mean, they do have family members, cousins, aunts who have mostly been supportive. And it sounds like they would be supportive of them going forward because, again, part of getting back to the whole parole, plan and the presentation by the brothers, they actually have to present a release plan and any plans they have and efforts they're going to make to basically rehabilitate, follow the rules

and not recidivate, not commit crimes again. So basically, they would have already presented to the board how they're going to be supported by friends, family, potential employers or business opportunities, things like that. that's all the heart of the decision making because if their family life and support were a blank slate, they had none, pretty highly unlikely they'd get out because what else could you do but commit a crime

to support itself? Yeah. But to your point, though, I think there's going to be a massive opportunity for them. I mean, there's going to be a book publisher that's ready for a massive six-figure advance, right? There's going to be a lot of different opportunities for them that are going to present it right away.

I just think it's crazy. It's nuts to me. It's all very interesting. You know, but there's a lot of interesting things going out there in California right now. Hell, you were telling me yesterday, what happened in the park? Like, what was going on? There was a parade. Like, what happened?

Yeah. I mean, you know, with the uptick in immigration enforcement, with ice presence in Los Angeles over the last month, which, you know, I think most people to the extent they were arresting, you know, felons and people here unlawfully who are committing crimes. I think most people kind of support that. Sure. But, you know, chasing day laborers through the parking lot at Home Depot has been a little surprising to some.

And then what happened just yesterday at MacArthur Park, large park near downtown, pretty well known, there was essentially a kind of brigade of law enforcement. most believe they are their ICE or CBT, customs and border protection. Fully masked, full ammoed, rifles, trucks, someone on horseback, basically marching through the park. And the only thing are people that were in the park, there was a summer day camp for kids. And they were in the park. And they suddenly all these, this whole parade of armed officers comes through. And the kids had to be like shuffled away and so they weren't involved.

But they interested me, buddy. They just kind of marched up and down the park, I guess, presumably to make known their presence in the community. I think DHS released a statement that they did it to deter the market for unlawful for fake IDs and social security numbers in the park. I mean, theoretically, I guess, but you need to... Cammo to do that. It's just interesting. It kind of, it's almost like,

because I can tell you what it looked like from afar. You know what I mean? We're out here in Florida and we went out there to do some interviews. And I think the day or two before, you know, I talked to Val and talked to my team. I'm like, guys, I don't know how close we're supposed to be to these,

this riot, these protests, these riots, whatnot. I see, you know, armed guards in the middle of, you know, the interstate or the highway.

I'm like, oh my God. Like, what's going on out there, right? And we got there and we didn't really see anything. But come to find out the studio, one of the studios we rented was literally two and a half miles away from the actual epicenter of this. And when I, when I asked the gentleman, how far away it was, he's like, oh, you're about 25 miles away. I was like, dang, man.

Damn. Yeah. All the action was within like a half square mile downtown where the federal buildings are essentially. And pretty isolated to just that. So if you just focus the cameras on that look area, it looked intent. There's a lot going on. But if you bring the camera out for larger picture, it's like a little three corner or two where the activity was. Yeah, it's a little pie.

I saw that one reporter get hit with a rubber bullet. Did you see that? And those hurt. They do real damage. I bet. You know, that's a pain point, definitely. I don't know if you remember doing the paintball. Yeah.

Back in the day, if you ever did paintball, like the way those paint pellets feel, apparently this is like 10 times those paintballs. You want to hear a crazy story about paintball? We'll give the audience a break here and get them off a little bit. So my son's last birthday, he wanted to do paintball. And, you know, this was in October. I'm like, all right, my wife and I're like, all right, cool, let's go do it. So it's all his friends.

And, you know, I had one of my buddies and his wife come out. And the day was going great until my friend screwed the whole day up for everybody. It was towards the end. And buddy, AJ, this is your fault, goes up and sees my son. And he's like five feet from him and just unloads on my kid. And no, he's seen it. Like his leg was bleeding everywhere. I'm like, what?

this shit what the hell was that it says kids birthday man like like beat him win like shoot them once but like also we told my son like dude don't wear shorts like don't it's hot i'm gonna wear a shirt i'm like okay and uh yeah dude so if it's if it's if it's you know 10 times worse than that that shit hurts man no thanks oh yeah no thanks definitely what what else is going on in your world man there's got to be some, I think you sent over some other points. Someone with Sunny Belwani, too, and there's just a lot of interesting things going on. I mean, other than obviously, everyone's talking about the ditty case and how that all worked out and shook out and what are the moving factors.

You know, I think some people are still trying to process that because, you know, I mean, it's emotional because people recognize, I think, the extent of the abuse and have difficult processing. Like, but how is it he got off? on both of the serious charges. I think a lot of people are still kind of grappling with that, definitely. I'm one of them, you know, and I can talk about it. Like, look, I mean, I don't have a dog on the fight

or the fact that what is right is what's right is what's right, right. Right? Like, I see the abuse on film, you know, with Cassie. Like, you see it in the hotel room. You see all of these different things, you know, like the sex workers, crossing state lines. Well, isn't that trafficking? like I don't I don't understand and typically when the state of New York charges you with something

that big it sticks like it you know that they they have those eyes dot and those T's crossed and so I think the big the big surprise of the public was oh he was convicted out of the five major accounts he was only convicted of two and then it's like what's going on is he getting out on bail. And, you know, so obviously there's a lot of people that are like, man, this is kind of effed up. Because if this joker gets out, like, what the hell, man? Like, is it because of money? Is it because of, you know, the name? And again, you know, if he's not guilty, then obviously he shouldn't be there. Like, I get it. Like, I'm not saying that just because, you know, public perception says you're guilty, that you're guilty. I'm not, I'm not saying that at all. I don't want to be

ignorant in the fact but oh it when i saw that i'm like what the fuck what like seriously like yeah it blew me away it it's it's a real issue and and it somewhat i think ties into who prosecuted the case because he was charged by the feds he wasn't charged by the by the new work DA's office. And, you know, so for federal jurisdiction, like you said, you've got to cross state lines or, you know, for the RICO charge, a racketeer, uh, racketeer organization. Again, use involving interstate commerce. You need to trigger federal jurisdiction. But some of the things you just described, you know, his literal assault and dragging Cassie through, through the hotel lobby,

that doesn't cross state lines. That's domestic abuse. That's assault. Yeah. And it clearly, I mean, he couldn't be charged with that by the locals. Yeah. But that hasn't happened.

I don't think. That would be the most obvious charge. But instead, in the federal jurisdiction, they had to put together a more complicated, you know, RICO case, uh, trafficking case.

And then the Mann Act, which is what he was actually convicted of, which is simply, transporting, you know, persons across state lines for prostitution, which is literally like an early 20th century statute that was designed

to prevent kind of some concerns back then about white slavery and trafficking in women in the early 19th years. You know, so it's an odd, it's still an odd duck to a federal charge. That is odd. So with that charge there being convicted of that,

What can that potentially come with? Because I know he's convicted of two things, right? What potentially is he looking at in your mind? Yeah, it's two counts of 18 U.S.C. 2421. The stat max is five years each. Is it five years or maybe I'd be 10 years each? But no one gets the stat map. Basically, your sentence under the sentencing guidelines.

And for that, basically offense, the guideline It starts at 14 points, which isn't significantly high. And then you add on additional points for other elements of your defense conduct. But I think the defense just submitted a letter, I think, asking for like two and a half years or something like that. Two, two and a half years. I think the government was asking for twice that. Two and a half years for each one or total? Total, total, yeah.

How long has he been in? I think it's got to be about a year now, no? I feel like it's... I feel like it's... I feel like it's... If it's not a year, it's like definitely eight months, right? I feel like it's been quite some time. You know, I just...

Because I know he was denied bail, right? He was denied bail. So, you know, obviously for, you know, the judge felt it appropriate to keep him there. but I mean what are your thoughts like two and if they ask for two and a half years I mean he would only have like a year left a year and a half left yeah he gets credit for the time in the federal system you typically do about 80 85% of the time as long as you get your good time credit so you know maybe he's got he would have a year left a year and a half

if again if the judge goes with the with the defense calculation and argument. But the problem is the judge has been exposed to all this under conduct, really heinous conduct, even though he's acquitted it. Under the guidelines, some of that acquitted conduct can still

be taken into consideration under the guidelines, which is kind of crazy. Yeah. But it is counterintuitive. So, you know, I suspect the defense argument is a little aggressive. And given what the judge has seen of his character,

I got to think he's going to go more towards the higher end of the guideline calculations. That would just be my view. Yeah. I mean, so technically, in your opinion, based on that, he could serve another four to five years? I suspect so. Yeah. To me, that would not just take into account the actual offenses of conviction.

but, you know, part of the sentencing calculus is the person, the person, that their character, their history and characteristics are what the guidelines are supposed to take into consideration. And the officer who writes the report, though, they interview the person, they go to their family background, they interview family members. So it's, it's somewhat of a, at least theoretically, a holistic look at the person. And you look at this person. I mean, obviously he did great in the business world, very successful and very talented, but obviously there's another, I'll call them character flaws that led him to where he's at, and, you know, a judge can't ignore those character flaws. I, you know, it's interesting because, you know, my wife was really kind of upset at the verdict,

and I just looked at her. I go, you know, this is really unfortunate. It kind of, you know, pisses me off too. I go, I was a bit, she goes, he's getting out. I go, no. I was like, he's going to serve some time, you know. And she's like, well, maybe time serves. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

It's not going to be time served. He's not, he's not getting out anytime soon. In my opinion, and I could be wrong. And, you know, look, man, I mean, like I said, you know, there's just so many different types of character flaws that this man possesses for a judge. Be like, all right, man, you get to go home in five months. Like, the domestic charge, in my opinion, the salt, like, oh, my. gosh, I can't believe that.

That hasn't even been a charge. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's the problem. Typically, a lot of the conduct he's been engaged in, charged by locals. And, and in, in particularly in Los Angeles, you know, like here now, we have a new DA's tough on crap. So, you know, and in New York, I would think they would have been interested as well, to the extent, kind of the events took place in Vegas. You know, some of that would still be in statute.

but when you get into all of these problems, are they overcharging or double jeopardy? Yeah. Technically, the state and the fence can both charge you from the same offense and it's not double jeopardy. It's interesting. What is the date on the, when do we know what's happening with him? Oh, I think it's the 20, oh, it's October,

it's the first week of October? That sounds about it. I thought it was in the fourth quarter for sure. Yeah, so it's October. I think it's the first or second week of October. So there's some time and there will be some wrangling about that. Man. I mean, it's going to happen.

That's crazy. I mean, you know, just imagine like being one of those individuals, like even the Menendez brothers. You get the resentencing and then you're just kind of chilling, just waiting. There's like all that anxiety or that energy, you know what I mean? And really on both ends, too, the prosecution. the defense and even the public eye, you know, his family, the victim's families, like the victims, like, there's so much to go, there's so much going on here, man. I mean, for him, I mean, this is an almost total victory.

Oh, absolutely. Because if he was convicted on the other offenses, he would have never stepped out of jail for the rest of life. So, you know, him doing three months, six months, another year, year and a half, is a piece of cake. I mean, but what are the reports that when he returned back to custody, you got like a standing ovation from the fellow inmates over the result? Wow. You know, obviously terrible conduct by him. But, you know, people have their views about, you know, what's right and wrong and what should and should not be charged. And, you know,

it seems like the 12 jurors kind of agreed with those inmates on most of the, most of the counts. Well, it sounds like he's well received in prison, too. So he's obviously safe, you know? Particularly now. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. He will be getting out returning to his business. I'm assuming, although lots of civil litigation,

he's still about to confront, which isn't cheap. No. He's also of an age where, you know, he's a talented guy. I mean, will, could, you know, what's really crazy, could he rehabilitate his image and make a comeback of some sort? Will, will people be willing to work with them? I don't know. I don't know what the answer to that question is, because in the end, what talks? Money.

For sure. Money talk. For sure. And so I got to think once he's out and he's doing the rehabilitation circuit himself, you know, they're a business opportunity. for anyone in his in his circle again. I'm sure he's going to have a phenomenal stable of PR to help him rehabilitate or at least attempt to. You know, I have my opinions.

You may have yours. Like, do you think there's any potential for him to rehabilitate his image and be a productive business person in the industry again? You know, I tend to at least, try to see the best in people. Right, right. Even when they've done terrible things, I always, I always feel like, how did they get to be that person? Like for the Menendez brothers, who created those monsters?

Like, what caused it? Typically, people, I mean, there are some people who are just completely anti-social psychotics. Yeah. They had, you know, great upbringing, great family, and they're just nuts. But for a lot of other people who had, things, you know, maybe in their background, there have been some terrible things that they experience that brought them to that point. I'm sure if something happened to him in his youth, we're probably going to hear about it when he comes out. But, you know, I would hope that there's some window for him to fix at least.

I mean, he can't fix everything. Yeah. He did the harm he did to the people he. hurt. But you would think there's there's some space for rehabilitation. I tell you, man, it's made it really hard for me to listen to one of the songs. I'm going to tell you, there's some jams. I mean, it's a real thing. I say it in humor, but I don't know how many times, you know, Diddy songs come on, even

with, you know, Biggie or what I'm like, oh, this is a jam. And my folks at me, she goes, turn that shit. I'm like, but it's back to Cali. It's back to Cali. Like, what do you mean? Turn it. You know? Yeah.

So there's the whole R. Kelly audience still listening to his great music. Yeah. Good old R. Kelly, man. Jeez, man. That's another one. That's a whole other episode. Good God.

Oh, yeah. And there's a cohort of people that run to his offense. Oh, yeah. And not surprising. You know, it's the attraction of talent. and fame and money too. Sure. You know,

there's something compelling about someone who can move people, whether it's through music or art or something else, you know, that's attractive. Because when you move out of music or art, that's emotion, right? And when you play on that emotion, you can move people in and out of that energy,

they latch on. And then you don't see things for what they truly are. No, I totally agree. And that's, you know, that's, that's, that's some of what went on in the Ditty trial as well. And, you know, both sides trying to play on the jurors emotions, the prosecution, trying to, you know, put the heinous conduct in, in the eyes of the jurors only over and over and over. And the defense, you know, making the point that, you know, these, these victims stuck

around for a reason. Yeah. The government said coercion, the defense that know it's money and fame and love. You know, all of those are emotions and trying to paint the picture, who's the hero, and who's the villain in the trial. That's what almost all trials are about. Who's the hero? Who's the villain? And Mark Agnifillo, Diddy's lawyer, convinced the jurors that for the most part, the villain was the prosecution, that they overcharged the case.

So interesting and it'll be even more interesting to see how it plays out. But look, Stephen, thank you so much for coming on today and giving me and the audience your brain truly insightful. And I just thought it was very interesting because, you know, my approach in this conversation was just out of curiosity, right? Just asking the questions that I'm thinking about as I'm scrolling through my news feed. And I'm hoping that the audience is latching on or has latched on to things that you're saying and, you know, potentially bring some things to light. And, you know, it just, you know, but the ultimate thing too, Stephen, is, you know, there is a big play on how Hollywood impacts real life now, you know, whether it's white color crime or criminal law, like an aggressive, you know, murder or something like that or a, The one thing that I want the audience to truly realize is that no matter what their opinion is, there's still human lives involved.

And we have to be open to if someone, A, is proven innocent, right, or rehabilitates themselves. It is not our job to continue with the outrage. It's to, I guess, trust the system that we're in. And I know that's hard. I know that's hard. It can be hard because, you know, we all have our own biases, subjective views. And, hey, even myself, it can be hard to kind of see the other side or, you know, really understand how it is that a jury could acquit someone who has been accused of such terrible behavior. but hey it's those jurors who sat through the months of trial and evidence and you know you can convince one or two but when they come together unanimously in my experience they usually have it right one more that kind of comes to mind man i'm sorry it's old school it's old and it's not even in the news cycle anymore but the casey anthony trial like i mean that that shit was wild

dude. That was wild. And I never thought in a million years she'd be acquitted of that. Right. But again, public opinion versus the juror sitting there, you know, and I'm not saying she, I'm not, I want everybody to understand and I want to be clear. I'm not saying she was innocent. I'm not, I'm saying they found her innocent. That was their decision. They were the ones or not guilty. Yes. Which is different even. I guess it is different. I guess, yeah, you're right. You're right. So, You know, but just we weren't one of the jurors. We don't know what it was like.

We didn't sit there. So I just want to be clear to the audience. That one blew my mind. That one really blew my mind. And I didn't like the verdict on that, obviously. But anyway, man, thank you so much. I enjoyed chatting with you. And, you know, really looking forward to continue to follow your career

and everything that you have going on. And I'll be cheering for you, brother. for sure. Hey, thanks a lot. I had a lot of fun. Really enjoyed it. We'd love to do it again. Absolutely. Hope all of it. Oh, brother, open invite, man. Open invite. I'm sure you'll have something else come up really, really soon. We can wrap again. And obviously, I'll be coming out to California. So even if it's just for a coffee or something, let's try to link up here soon. And I just appreciate you, man. Great. We'd love that. Thanks a bunch. All right. For the audience, thank you for listening, watching. Please send this to somebody.

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