Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - Tony Goldwyn | The Mindset and Determination Behind Hollywood Success

Episode Date: April 13, 2026

Most people see success, but they don’t see the adversity, discipline, and relentless determination it takes to get there. What looks like overnight success is really years of rejection that build the mindset and mental toughness required to last. In this episode, Tony Goldwyn shares the reality of breaking into Hollywood, the power of committing fully, and how adversity shapes your determination, discipline, and long-term success. This is about developing high performance habits, choosing consistency over motivation, and staying locked in when most people would quit. If you’ve ever felt like quitting, this conversation will challenge your mindset, strengthen your mental toughness, and remind you that adversity is the path—not the obstacle. Key Takeaways    Most successful people fail far more than they win—but determination keeps them going The difference is they stay disciplined and don’t stop when it gets hard Commitment eliminates “what if” and builds real mental toughness Adversity isn’t a stop sign—it’s where determination is built Purpose fuels consistency more than motivation ever will If you don’t go all in, you’ll never fully test your potential or your mindset *Socials* Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theshawnfrench Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/476624146831479?checkpoint_src=any Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/5kS9tkLGQLcVyRgB3mDznw Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-determined-society-with-shawn-french/id1555922064 Linkme - https://link.me/theshawnfrench Tony Goldwyn - https://www.instagram.com/tonygoldwyn/ Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I had been auditioning for some crap sitcom pilot, all these actors sitting in the hallway on the floor. I go in, the casting director, didn't look at me once. I read my scene. I'm like, okay, I guess I'm done. And I left, like, so depressing. And that feeling of, like, helpless walls just seemed... It's impenetrably high.

And then there I was, three months later, I showed up for my very first day of rehearsal on Ghost. That was Demi Moore and me at this rehearsal. And here I was. way beyond whatever the hell that pilot was. Yeah. What it was. Right.

And I looked like, and I see that. And I was like, never forget this moment. I couldn't believe that I had this big part in this big movie. Every time we think about these walls being so high and where are we going, it's so hard to get off that mindset because it can truly tear us down. Hey, what's up guys? Welcome back. I got an absolute legend here today. I got Tony Goldwyn has been in everything.

I mean, hell, he was Carl and Ghost. I was. That was a violent death for such a mainstream movie. I've had several violent deaths. I'm still here to tell us now. Dexter? Yeah. The Last Samurai.

Yes. I think I've died like 20 times. I don't know. And you still look great, man. Vampire. You know? Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Excited to have him here today. Let's not forget scandal. Obviously, President. Sometimes like, you know, I still think you're my president. Well, I mean, that's how I am. I want you to be, dude. Can you actually run? I so don't want to do that.

I really enjoy my life. I don't want to destroy it. Oh, man. I hear you on that one, dude. But thank you so much for coming and sitting down with me. It was awesome meeting you at Fox 5 and DC. It's crazy, right? That was fun.

That was weird. It's like an experience I'm sitting there. Matt says like, hey, that's so-and-so. I go sit down. I'm like, no, I don't think it is. And as soon as you opened your mouth, I'm like, sounds pretty damn presidential, man. That's crazy, man. But dude, I appreciate it, man.

I really, really do. And you're such a nice dude. You know, that's the thing that, you know, I've spoken to many people that I've met you. and it is a constant thing, I met Tony Goldwyn, he's a super nice guy. Oh, that's nice to hear. Well, do, that's a reflection on who you are, man. Kindness is important.

I think it is too. It's not that hard. No, it's not that hard. Well, I mean, people are making it hard. Yeah, that's true. I mean, how hard is that today? It can, I keep, I keep at it. Yeah, you do.

I also think it's, I don't know, I'm happier. I think it's a, yeah, it's a force you want to keep alive in the universe. It's strange because when we, met at Fox 5, we had a long conversation about just where society is at right now. Everybody wants a fight, you know, and it's just this, you know, pick aside. And we discussed the fact that if we just peel back all the layers and the onions and all the bull crap noise, we're all the same. You all want the same things.

You know, so I appreciated that, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's wild. So the production in D.C. Talk about that real quick. Oh, yeah. It was great. So I co-directed this musical with my choreographer, the amazing genius Savion Glover,

who's for people don't know who are like the most famous tap dancer in the world and a visionary artist. We did this show called Shea Joey starring Miles Frost, who was actually a DC natives. Miles was the youngest winner of a Tony Award for Best Actor in a Musical. He played Michael Jackson on Broadway when he was like, well, a few years ago, he was 19, I think, or 20. And this is his next big thing. So it's called Shea Joey, and it's setting up Black Jazz Club in Chicago in 1940. And it's about this guy who has dreams of having his own club. He's got this sound.

He's determined to put out in the world. And the struggles that he goes through to make that happen. And it was an amazing show. Incredible music. Savian's work is insane and as is Miles. And we had a big hit in D.C. at the arena stage. So it just closed on Sunday. And you sold out, right?

He sold out. And it looks like we're going to be coming to Broadway, you know, the next season. So congratulations. That's great. Yeah. I want to come up and watch it. Yeah, for sure, you'll dig it. It's a really fun show.

It's a great show. I want to do the DC one. And Miles is super cool too. He's a really cool guy. Yeah, great kid. You know, very talented. Amazing. You know, admittedly, I hadn't known who he was before, but then when he and I, you know, shot follows on socials.

I'm like, I do know who he is. You know? And I was like, what a talented young man. Yeah, he's amazing. He really is. Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad it went well. It was great.

Thanks. Broadway, though, man. Yeah, that's fun. It's a long journey. You know, we've been working on the show for years, trying to find, tune in, get it right, and I think we finally kind of cracked it. That's an interesting. When you just said we worked on it for years, and I want the audience to really tune into this

because people think when you start working on something, it's quick. You know, things are built easily, and there's so much behind the scenes. Yeah. You know, there's adversity that is a big driver that people, once they feel, that they run. I think that's the point where you just, that's when I run forward, even though it hurts tremendously at times. But like, walk us through that, years of preparation, right? For, what were you there for like, what, three months, right? Two to three months. Is that how long the production was? It just ran six weeks. So we were there for a few minutes with rehearsal and everything.

Yeah. But, you know, our goal has always been to bring it to New York to Broadway. But it's been almost 10 years working on this. But almost everything, you know, as an actor, when I get hired, you know, production's already on getting ready to go. So that's all, they've been through all the development. Right. But as a director, you know, movies that I've worked on one of them took me almost 10 years to get made. Ten years. Two or three years is fast.

The one I'm going to do next, you know, the writer's been working on the script for two, almost three years. That's very fast. Wow. So in some things, you know, just art takes time to get right. That's so nice, like 10 years for that one movie. Oh, yeah, it was Labor of Love, that one man, almost killed me. Which one was that? It was a movie called Conviction.

It came out in 2010, and it was a, it's an amazing story, a true story. I had heard one day in 2001, my wife was watching the Today Show, and she said, Tony, come in here, you got to hear this story. And she was a story about this guy who had just been released from prison after 18 and a half years. for a murder that he didn't commit. Oh, damn. And his sister got him out. His sister was the only person who believed in him and had not graduated high school.

She was a single mom. And when he went in, she said, I'm going to get you out of here. And she got her GED, went to college, went to law school, put herself through law school, raising two kids by herself, and ultimately got him exonerated. It found DNA evidence.

And with the help of this amazing organization that I'm not very involved in, sit on the board of called the Innocence Breast. project, which, you know, defends people who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes. So, yeah, with the help of the Innocence Project, got him out. So we made a movie about it. Man. And it was a great story.

And yeah, Hillary Swank played the sister. And Sam Rockwell played the brother. I've seen that movie. Oh, really? That's a great movie. Yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about. Right.

Yeah, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I just felt this, you know, I thought it was an amazing story about love and a brother brother's sister kind of love story and about adversity and about, you know, the cracks in our criminal justice system. So, yeah, and I felt this tremendous responsibility to Betty Ann Waters, who the story was about. I told I would get it done, so I wasn't going to quit.

It's wild. You took the words out of my mouth because I was going to segue into, once you started talking about that, the Innocence Project, that you're so heavily involved in. You know, for someone like you that's busy constantly with your career, It's important to also do things like this. How has it fulfilled you, though? Like, in a sense of like, man, this feels really good to really do something super impactful for people. For me, you know, when I first experienced the phenomenon, I always loved my job, loved being an actor of the work was, oh, really, I felt so lucky to do it.

But the whole phenomenon of celebrity felt kind of fraudulent. You know, you get all this attention for a piece of work. I'm like, it's just my, I'm just doing it. my job. And so I was kind of uncomfortable with it. And then I discovered, oh, well, I could use this platform to shine a light on things that don't get enough attention. So that, then I started looking like, well, how can I, how can I help? How can I be of service in that way? So with, you know, the actual differences that are being made are the people that dedicate their lives to this work, Whether it's Innocence Project or there's another organization called America,

which is an incredible organization that's a humanitarian relief organization that I work with. You know, they do, though. They're the ones saving lives. I'm helping to tell their story. So that I use my like skills as a storyteller and my, you know, whatever profile. I have at any given time to, you know, to get attention for the work that they're doing. So I don't pretend to be changing life. lives in the way that they are, but it's a really, it's a privilege to, to, um, to beat the drum for,

for people who are. It's amazing. Do your humility, bro, like, honestly, like, you're so humble about everything that you've done. Like, when you're, when you're talking about that, you're saying, I've always been very uncomfortable with the whole celebrity thing. There's a lot of people that take advantage of that. And it's, you know, I love when you said, like, that's just my job. That's my art. It's what I do. And I look at people like that as well. You know, my wife does too. She's like, it's their job.

You know, they're people too. Yeah. Well, a lot of people don't stay grounded. You know, and I know you come from a family of, you know, actors and producers and directors. Is that something that they instilled at you at an early age? So, I think so. You know, the thing that my father and mother,

instilled it's just that it's a, which I've done with our kids, Mary Jane, my wife and I, with our kids, that's a working profession. And my parents were really concerned that we would get, that we never be enamored of all the glitz and claim all the, you know,

what they thought was sort of the foolishness of it. But also it's toxic. It's a hazardous thing. You know, you have to be very careful. It's like, you know, it plays into all the parts of ourselves that we need to be careful. or the ego gratification and things where we can get our heads blown up.

And it's just on, it's just, it's not a way to make you happy. Yeah. You know what I mean? In addition to being destructive to other people, it's not, it's not a healthy way to live your life. So, yeah, I mean, we all know people who have, I just know so many people who have allowed that to kind of drive the bus and not one of them is a happy person. That's wild, man. Hey guys, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to slide into our recovery segment brought to you by Therobody.

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You know, it's, there's nothing worse than meeting somebody and that you hope is going to be cool. And then they turn into complete opposites, right? That's why I was just really excited when I met you because, I don't know if I told you this, but like, like, dude, I've watched mostly everything that you're in for a lot of years. And you're, you are one of my favorite actors. Oh, thanks.

Straight up, dude. Like, when I told my wife, I met you and she goes, wait, are you serious? She goes, like, how was he? Was he nice? He's just such a kind human being. But, I mean, I probably watch Scandal one season one through seven. Oh, really?

Five times. Wow. Oh, no, dude, I love it. I'm watching it through again. My mom and I started it the other day. Yeah, it's so fun. Again, it's a great show. You know, so let's talk about that really quickly because, you know, I'm really upset,

seven seasons. I was hoping that you guys would have a friend's run, man. Yeah, right. No, Shonda wanted to, she knew when she wanted to end it. So good. She told us a year ahead of time. She was like, okay, just so you know, guys, this is it. Wow.

And it was great. So it was very purposeful, you know. She didn't want to just keep it going just to keep it. Some shows, like, look, Graz Anatomy versus still, they're going. But that show, that story, you know, she just wanted to keep telling. Ours had a definite end point. Yeah. It was amazing work, man.

It was just one of those shows that I think so many people can connect with, not because of the setting, just about the story between you. and Olivia Pope. Yeah. Just like, you can't help who you fall in love with. Energy is energy. It was just a beautiful story, man. Yeah. It was so good.

It was right. And setting it like in the White House was just made the stake super high, which makes it super fun to watch, you know. Yeah. And all the craziness. But that's it, Shonda's real, she's got such a gift, you know, for writing about things that are just real human emotions, you know, stuff that we all can relate to.

And yet putting it in a context that's kind of operatic. Yeah. and completely outrageous and it was wild it was wild the thing that i really liked about it too was most characters in that in that show had a certain cadence to their speech yeah it was really fast it was really impactful you comical and collected all the time it was a complete contrast i mean you know when you look at every character like even cyrus being you know um milly as well she would sometimes go really, really fast, and you were always just, like, separate from that. It was a cool contrast, but it was just, it just showed the genius of Shauna Rimes.

Yeah, and that was super important to her from the very beginning. She said, there's going to be a pace to this show. Everyone has to talk extremely fast. She said, the only time this show slows down is when Fitz and Olivia are together. She said, otherwise, and so for our first season, she was constantly sending us emails going, scandal paste, you guys aren't talking fast enough. Faster, faster, faster, faster, faster, fast. So it was a joke where if people would be hired to be guest stars on the show, they'd be like warned, you better you better know your stuff and talk fast. So it was a skill we had to develop.

But I guess I was more, yeah, I was calmer. But I still had to talk pretty fast. There were no. But then when me and Kerry got together, there were lots of pauses and, you know. That's interesting you say that because I knew that, but it never really registered. And then I'm going back to when you said it,

how everything just slow down. I'm going back to like season one. Yeah, season one. Like the whole one minute thing. I don't know if you realize that we say one minute and then we have silence. And Chonda would have literally silence for a minute of television.

No one would do that, you know, if it's just sitting there together. But audiences love it. She's a genius. It was wild, man. I think my favorite, I don't want to say my favorite scene, but probably was.

Like, my favorite moment that you guys had was in season one when she's like, you got to go. you got to get out of here and you just said one more minute and you guys sat down on the couch I was like in her house right

yeah you're out of house I love that scene in her apartment I mean it was but every time I watched it was very early on it was maybe yeah

season I think it was episode two it was episode two something like that yeah see I told you I'm all over this shit man I watched it it's crazy

but like the the emotion behind it right like the connection to you and Carrie hasn't as actors and professionals, that scene to me, I saw it differently two days ago than I saw it.

10 years ago, whatever it was. I mean, I don't know because I watch it so often, right? But it's literally my favorite show. So that whole moment was like, all right, one more minute, let's just hold each other because it's over. And I could just see the pain, you know, in both of you. And then it's just like, damn. Like, you look at that and it's like, yeah, it ain't over.

Yeah, right, exactly. But yeah, that was a really cool scene. What was your favorite moment? I mean, there's probably a ton of them, but. I don't even remember. I mean, there was so many. The thing that comes back to, but that, for me, it was just the people, you know, that was just so we were like, we still are.

It was like a family that was created. So it was like your high school, best high school friends is sort of what ended up being like. Gosh, I honestly can't be. many, there was a beautiful scene with the two of us on a bus. There was this episode about a campaign trail where you sort of flashback to how they met. Yeah. And I said something to where, I don't remember what it was exactly, but I sort of say to where, God, why didn't I meet you before? Like, how did this happen? How did this happen? That I'm meeting you now. Yeah. And I'm already in a, I mean, what he was sort of saying was I'm already in a marriage that I don't really want to be in.

but, you know, and I thought it was really beautiful. But anyway, yeah, there was so many fun moments of seven years. And that's the thing, though, like that is such a hard topic to cover. But it's so relatable. How many people in the world get into a marriage and then they meet somebody as like, dude, where were you eight years ago? Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think that one of the biggest reasons why that show took off the way it did,

it was like, was for that reason. It's just very relatable. Yeah. And also it's a little steamy, right? This is the freaking Oval Office here. You know, like, this is, this is kind of forbidden. But it was just those elements that just, it just punched everybody in the gut. It was so good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, Carrie called me the other day. I was in D.C. going down to watch the show down there. I'm in my hotel, the phone rings his carrie. Hi, Carrie. And so, I ask you a question. What was your favorite sex scene that we did in Scandal? I'm like, what?

He says, because I'm, she said, I'm doing a podcast. She was doing call your daddy. Yeah, she was with Alex Cooper. Yeah, exactly. I had no idea. I'm like, well, I think it was this. She's, yeah, because I'm doing a podcast. Of course you are.

Of course. I was like, I'm here with Jane and the girls, you know, in D.C. It was pretty funny. The millions of people of some of this podcast. I think the thing went viral or something. Oh, of course. It was funny because Matt, he's like, dude, did you see this? I'm like, I don't know.

Does he want to return the favor? Does you want to call her? Call Carrie. But no, it was that, but that's the thing. Years later, and you mentioned it's like, you know, high school, you guys are still connected. You can literally see it because I grew up in a world of sports. And once you're a teammate, you're a teammate for life. You may not get along 110% of the time, but when it push comes a shove, you're there for that person.

That's right. That's right. And that's what I love to see in that moment with Carrie Washington calling you when she was on call her daddy. Like that was insane. Yeah. Like that was so cool. Yeah. Like it was a, it was silly as hell.

Yeah. Silly as hell. I saw the clip. It was really good. Yeah. It was really good, man. I was a little bit. But anyway, yeah, it was it's, it was great.

It was a beautiful experience. Yeah, man. When you have a project like that, that takes so much. much of you, right? And I would imagine seven seasons on one show, there's an emotional attachment. How do you break free from that when it's over? Well, I felt really lucky to be a bit older when that happened because I, A, really appreciated it while it was happening.

And you can get sometimes success like that or when you're younger can really, you know, the stuff we were talking about before, about your ego can get challenged or you just an anxiety. It can create anxiety. Like, what do I do with all this energy coming at me? You know, whereas when I, since I was older, I just knew like, man, just enjoy this ride because this not going to last forever. And so by the time he came to a close, A, we had a year to kind of process it because she told us ahead of time. And I found myself just super grateful that we'd had that time. And knowing, having been through many cycles of life and ups and downs, not, you know, you know, you don't expect things to last.

So you know things come to an end and that's a beautiful thing too. It's sad. So it was a beautiful ending, man. I have this video I made of the last shot of scandal that we made and, yeah, it was awesome. So we all put it in and we have all stayed friends. So we have like a text chain that's always popping off. Yeah, doesn't, doesn't die. We try and get together as much as we can.

And those of us who live in the same cities are, we're saying. you're all just close friends. That's really cool. Yeah, it's great. You know, you mentioned at one point when you're just talking ups and downs. I really want to touch on that because this show, the determined society is built on discipline, grit, and resilience. And we have to understand that when moments get really hard, that is not the time to pull

back. It may hurt emotionally, but you can't break your word to yourself. You have to keep pushing. In your career, I want you to walk through the audience, you don't have to give specifics, But people have this ridiculous notion that celebrities, like actors and musicians, they don't have any adversity. They're good. They're rich. Debunk that for us, please, because there's a lot of struggle in what you do.

Well, every successful person, you know, I used to obsessively read books about great people or successful people. And we have from a distance, we see all the high points, the public successes, because, of course, that's what. promote or that's what gets attention. And you think, oh, that's that person's life. And when you read the story of any successful person, it's basically a whole string of failures punctuated by a few successes along the way, you know, and the commonality is tenacity. And often like vision or something that just drives people.

You know, so for me, you know, I started out with this desire to do this thing that I had no idea if I had the ability to do, but I knew I couldn't really not do it. So I, you know, and I've said this several times to people, but I had a brother-in-law who was a jazz musician who gave me some great advice when I was about 19, and he said, he said, Tony, either, he said, I was in your position when I was 19, and I told myself he'd come to New York and he was a prodigy musician.

He had no idea if he could, he said, either, if I commit 100% to this, I'll either get where I think I want to go, or it will lead me to something I don't even know about. But if I don't commit 100% to this thing, this goal, then I'll always be the person who said, oh, man, maybe I could if I'd really stuck with it. He said, you don't want to be that guy. No, that's regret. And that honestly got me through so many tough times when it just wasn't happening.

And I thought, I just don't, I don't see. The walls just seemed so high. I was never going to. And I was like, well, I committed. So I'm just going to keep going to. So, and then over the years, you know, when things, I've made friends with, I don't even call it failure anymore. I used to consider it failure, but when things fall apart and don't come to fruition in the way that you imagine them, it's always disappointing and painful, but it doesn't invalidate them. And oftentimes, like we were talking about projects taking a long time, you know, sometimes you, sometimes you

say okay I'm done with this one but for me I if there's something about a project that I just don't want to let go of I'll just keep at it I love it just keep keep at it and I don't evaluate it on on the terms of um how am I doing you know when I was younger I did I'm like where am I in relation to my dream you know where am I in my relationship to the top of mine everest am I am I there yet how far how far is it how far do I have to go I there oh god I mean you know and then you're exhausted you want to go to sleep. It's emotional drain. You waste so much energy.

You know, I used to burn so much emotional energy. You did. Oh, my God, freaking out about like why it wasn't happening for me, why I wasn't getting what I wanted, why I wasn't able to have the success that I thought I should have, you know, why it hadn't happened yet, or I wasn't on, like it should have happened by this time or this thing should have happened or, look, that person is getting that,

is doing that, and I, why aren't I there? All that stuff, you know. The comparison thing, man. In comparison, you know, like the thief of joy. But now that I'm older, you know, for several years now I've sort of, you know, it's been a while that I've been able to be more centered about it. And you learn that that just is just a completely ass-backwards way of looking at anything. And so now it's like, look inward to the why.

of what you're doing. And what, it's like raising kids, man. It's like, are they grown yet? Are they grown yet? No, you don't look at it that way. No, slow down. Don't grow. Don't grow.

Like, I love you. I just want to be with you all the time. Yeah, three years old, man. Look at the thing that's happening. Exactly. It's insane. And sometimes you drive me crazy. Oh, yeah.

But, you know, it's the same. So you wouldn't look at a child like that. Why don't we look at ourselves like that? So, and, you know, and of course, we want our children to grow up and thrive and have happy lives. But we don't, unless you're, you know, mentally unstable, you don't, you know, live in that space of like, so how are you rating to how you're going to be when you're 25 or 30 years old?

Oh, wow. You know, are you there yet? That's a good. Dude. Do you know what I mean, but we do that to ourselves. I've been there, though. Like, I've, I mean, and my dad and I have fixed a lot of things in a relationship. I love him to death, right?

Talked for about an hour or the other day. And a lot of it is him apologizing for moments like that. Wow. Yeah. Right. Like, hey, if you don't play Major League Baseball, what are you going to do? You don't have any other skills. Right.

Was that you, you were a baseball player? Yeah, I was baseball. I played at LSU. I played at a college school. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. I forgot. I mean, you know, so it's moments like that where I think parents are just really trying to prepare

you, like, hey, you need to have a backup plan or you need to have something that you're good at. You know, for me, I was just like, hey, I can talk to people. And they're like, yeah, you can't make any money doing that. Well, then we couldn't. But now, like, it just kind of worked out for me, right? But as you're going through these, you know, when you're talking about the walls, right, they seem so high. Where am I in relation to the top of Mount Rushmore?

Dude, I'm going through that right now. Like, it is hard for me still because, you know, I haven't matured to the point where I can just be like, okay, I'm just going to stay in my process. I talk about it a lot, right? And I coach myself through it. And again, I'm not telling the audience that I don't. don't practice what I preach because I do. But it's a struggle.

It's still hard for me. I'm still learning how to try to turn the noise of the top of the mountain off and just be here now. Yeah. And understand that this is the gift. Because if I try to grow up too quickly, like you said, then I'm going to forget all this. Yeah. This is the gift. Don't miss it.

Because I guess honestly, only because I've like had a lot of things that didn't work out and then did work out. You know, like we were talking about the show, Shea Joey, that took 10 years. So we're at Arena Stage in D.C. And the audience is going insane. Like they loved it. It was sold out.

It got great reviews. We, you know, our final performance. Like, Miles has this big number in the middle of the show. They got three standing ovations. So there's one number. Like, the audience stopped cheering. They wouldn't stop. They sit down.

They jump up again. Like, that stuff doesn't happen very often. So it was, I was thrilled. so fun. But, but someone who just came to that, it's like, oh, you did that thing. Isn't that great? Like, that's, that's the, that's the, that's the thing. That's the thing you're, that's, that's what it's all about. I'm like, no, that was just like this amazing moment. Mm-hmm. That happened, that was a reflection of the fact that we've worked our asses on this for so many years. Isn't it great that we sort of now found a formulation in a group of people where it, we had this moment

that was beautiful. I love that. But it's not like, you know, if I'd been thinking that was the goal the whole time, I would have quit years ago. Yeah. I would just want, oh, we're not there now. I want the shiny penny or whatever it is. So that's all.

I mean, look, my dad and I had the same thing. I know, he said to me once, I swear I've told before, but God bless him, I love me. he was my biggest cheerleader, but he had a lot of fear when I, as a parent, you know, I said I wanted to be an actor and do this risky thing. You know, maybe you're dead to like being a professional athlete. I mean, it's like, one of the odds of that happening. It's like razor thin. Yeah.

So I'm a lot older than you, but I was like in the late 70s when I was a teenager, Saturday Night Fever opened. I don't know if you ever seen that movie. It was a classic. John Travolta. May John Travolta are the biggest star in the world. John Travolta was like God. Yeah.

Okay. My dad, we walked by a poster of Saturday Night Fever and he's like, you know, Tony, I'm really happy you have this passion. But you just need to understand if you're not John Travolta by the time of 25, there's really no career. 25. Hey, they're not in game, dude. Because maybe Travolta was maybe 25 that I don't know. But I was like, and I said to myself, I was like, that can't be right. That just can't be right.

But it was hard to, man. Like over the, for several years, seven years or whatever was, while I was starting out, my dad had a lot of anxiety. So he was always like, you know, I could feel him, feeling like this isn't working out, this isn't working out, this isn't working out. Then when good stuff started happening, he was super thrilled. But I learned it was his fear. You know, I was mad at him for a number of years about it, especially in those years.

But then when we kind of messed, I was like, no, he was just scared. because he loved me. So then I, as a parent of adult children now, like when they start, where at that point, it was really hard for me to not, like, it was so painful to watch them struggle and to watch them fail and fall in their face

and, like, have a dream and work really hard for something and not get it. And, and, you know, bang their heads against the wall to try the thing that they want to do. And I had to coach myself as a parent to not, like, A, run a rush in and solve it, not to do that thing of like, well, maybe you should do something else. Maybe you should, you know, maybe you should cut your losses now and whatever those

impulses we have. I just don't want to see you suffer, which is all parents feel. So, you know, but I bit my tongue and I started to realize, oh, no, all of those trials are necessary, critical to their success. Do you know what I mean? Like to see them bang and then they're like smash into a brick wall and it makes them turn right in a way that they didn't know they were, you know, they make a turn they never would have made if they hadn't have done that or busts through that wall. If it took them 100 times hitting it, they busted through it. Or they turned and found a path that they never would have found if they hadn't gone through it.

And they're tougher and smarter and more experienced resilient because of whatever it is. You know, you go, oh, if they hadn't had gone through that, they never would have done this. So I was like, oh, thank God I didn't feel that I needed to like fix it or rush in there. So that was a big parenting lesson. That's so hard. Because, you know, we talk off camera. I have three kids. Mine are younger, 12, 9 and 7.

Yeah, like you're going to go through it. I'm like, I'm in the shit right now, right? I'm like middle school, you know, elementary, you know, my son's starting to play sports that like, if you ain't good enough, you're cut. Right. Right. Right. And so we went through those things this year with them.

And automatically it's like sometimes I just want to run in a, and save his ass. Yeah. Because I mean, I'm a high level, you know, athletic guy. Like, I coach, I coach for many years. And, you know, I see things differently, right? And because of the work I do now on the show and, and I've grown, I know what it looks like.

Like, just like with, with, with the, what just happened in D.C., that moment was not the moment. Right. That was the payoff for 10 years of pain. And that's what most people don't understand. And when I look at, I want to tell you a story. So my son tried out for the middle school soccer team. And when he was in rec ball, he dominated.

Like, he's like, I'm just, he was doing the messy thing and like all this kind of stuff. I'm like, this is freaking wreckball, dude. I didn't say that. I always pump him up, right? Yeah. Like in my comment, whether he plays great or absolutely dog shit, I go, I enjoyed watching you play. But I did it.

I didn't, did you have fun? Did you do your best? It's it. That's all I want to know. If you answer no to did you do your best, that's on you. Yeah. Not about, it's not about the goals. It's not about how many hits you get in a baseball game.

I could care less. But my point is, the opportunities as a parent that you get to really check yourself, right? Because there's something, like you said, there was a little of your dad in you. Right. You're like, you wanted to rush in. You wanted to say, hey, well, I want to help. You got to let him struggle a little bit. But he comes home after the first day of soccer trials.

And he was bummed. And he's like, I'm, I'm going to get cut. I said, well, if you think that, then you probably will. I said, because what you don't understand, you got 66.67% left of your trial. You got two more days left. So what are you going to do tomorrow to show the coach that you want to learn? What are you going to do tomorrow to work hard no matter how you feel emotionally at that time? Because, see, that's the key, son.

It was a better day. Then the next day he comes home. It was better. He goes, Dad, I don't know if I'm going to make the team, but I'm okay. I'm like, explain that to me. I'm okay with the outcome because I did do the best that I could. I was like, you're the only one that knows that. And I have to trust that you're correct.

And so we get an email later that night. Midnight, I woke up to go to the bathroom. I'm not that young, Tony, okay? I'm almost 48. All right, so I'm getting up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom now. And one of my biggest flaws is I will look at my email. But something told me that and I like, you have to look at your personal email, not your business email. So I look at my personal email and it was the soccer coach announcing that whoever's on his email,

your son made the team. Oh, that's great. He made the middle school soccer team. He wasn't a starter, you know. But dude, they won the championship. Wow. Undefeated. No, they lost one game.

I apologize. But he plays it and did his role, learned, got better, and won a championship. I've never, dude, I've played a lot of sports. I have never won an actual championship. I've won an SEC, West championship. We lost the SEC championship game, my senior year. We got beat up in the College World Series two games, and we were out. So, like, I've never won the last game in my season.

And we remember taking him to dinner. And we went to this Mexican food place and I said, hey, man, I just want to let you know how proud I am of you. It's like, yeah, we did it. I'm like, I could, I was like, dude, I'm so proud of where you started and where you got to. But most importantly, to your point, yes, you won the last game of your season. I've never done that. He looked at me. What are you talking about?

Yeah. I was like, I never won a championship. He's like, dad, you went to LSU. I go, we didn't win a championship when I was there, man. So you've done something that I've never done. I don't know what it feels like to be right. Like I'm getting like just thinking about that, right? It's like my 12 year old had an experience that I didn't.

And no matter what the route was, the end goal was attained, achieved for that team. But everything here, the pain of tryouts, they're getting one minute a game until the third to the last, game gets first goal, like there's the gift. Yeah, right. Like the moments here. So like every time we think about these walls being so high and where are we going, it's so hard to get off that mindset because it can truly tear us down.

Yeah. We have to understand that. Let's be here now. It takes years. I mean, you know, it's a lifelong process because I mean, I remember having this, my first big break was the movie Ghost, right? So I'd been up to that time I'm like working my ass, I'm struggling,

you know, working, but always feeling like an unemployed actor. I showed up for my very first day of rehearsal on Ghost. And I couldn't believe that I had this big part in this big movie. And I pull under the lot of Paramount Studios and there was a parking space with my name on it. Whoa! And I walked to the, stage and I'm walking to the stage where I have our first rehearsal. I remember that was Demi Moore

and me at this rehearsal and I was like I saw that this stage 19 as it was and I turned around and I looked at a building behind me and I saw this stairway going up and I remember building like three months ago I had been auditioning for some crap pilot sitcom pilot and they had made all the like made me wait over an hour for my, you know, for my reading. And they didn't even have any chairs for the actors. I remember all these actors sitting in the hallway on the floor for like an hour or more while this casting director was, you know, it was like very dehumanizing, feeling like whenever you get this. And I walked. It finally was my turn. I go in, it was hot. I go in to the thing. And the woman behind the desk was the casting director who was reading the scene with me. Didn't even look at me.

I come in, she's like, I said, yeah, Tony Goldman. Yeah, honey, sit down. Okay, do you have this idea? Read. And she read this thing with me. Didn't look at me once. I read my scene. I'm like, okay, I guess I'm done.

And I left like so depressing. And that feeling of like, these walls are so high. I'll never ever smell. So there I was three months later walking into my first rehearsal for this movie. And I look back and I see that. And I was like, never forget this moment. Because that was the feeling I had was I remember to help those walls just seemed impenetrably high.

And then here I was, like, way beyond whatever the hell, that pilot was, we probably never was. I'm sure it never even became a TV series. And now I was in a big movie. I was like, oh, okay, never forget this moment. But the other thing I wanted to share was, you know, many years later, or over the years, I would, it took me a lot for, I would offer. I would often do that thing of like constantly comparing.

So where am I to where I think I need to be? Or with the barometers of success that we hold for ourselves. So any project that I was in like, how's it doing? How are the reviews? What do people think? How are we comparing? You know, all that stuff. And I go, oh, I know.

I'm not supposed to care about that, but I really do. And it would create this tension to me. And when I became a film director, so I directed a couple of movies. The first movie I did did very, very well. It was like a lot of attention. I got a lot of attention for it. It was great.

It was a very personal thing. It was very organic the way that it happened. It was beautiful, beautiful experience. The second one was more of like a studio movie and was the one where they were like, you know, gives me really commercial. Okay. So I do this and I just always try to keep my head level, but it did not do well. Okay.

And I remember like, and it was not, I honestly wasn't, it wasn't, I was not, it wasn't, didn't not that great, I don't think. I think it was fine. What movie was it? It's a movie. It was called someone like you was a romantic comedy with Ashley Judd and Hugh Jackman and Greg, it was great Casmarissa Tomey and, um. Oh, that was a good movie.

I'm sure it was perfectly good, but it's not, it was, it was fairly generic. Okay, gotcha. You know, it's like a run-of-the-mill rom-com. People seem to love it, but for me, you know, critics were kind of dismissive of it. And I think it did okay at the box office. but it wasn't like, people were like, yeah, you're the new whatever, it's going to be his huge hit, and it was not.

And I really, I took it so hard. It shocked me. It was like, I got really depressed after it. And I wasn't that, it wasn't a project. I was hired to do this, but I, over and, I don't know, I just, it was very, very painful to go through the failure, having had a big success my first time out as a director and everybody ooing it on.

over me and now people are like oh well I guess I guess that was a one one and done who knows that's what I thought right no that's the story you're making up right I'm making it my yeah you're thinking like okay I'm a vanilla ice here we can yeah we completely create all this crap yeah so then um the next film I did was the one I told you about conviction that took 10 years to make no no no I did one other one between them so I did one a couple years later and then when I made the first conviction. I was 10 years older than that. I'd worked so hard to get that movie made. And we did it. And I made it. And the woman whose story was Betty in Waters was thrilled with it. It was a great thing for the Innocence Project.

Whatever failings, the movie may have had, I felt like we made the movie I wanted to make. We did that. We made that thing. And when it came out, it was all, again, a lot of hoopla. People go, oh, this is going to be huge. Oscars, it's going to be incredible. It's going to be the one. And I was a little skeptical of all. Okay, just chill. Yeah, just hold on. Hold on.

And it didn't really perform in the box office. So the studio left like six weeks in the theaters. They were like, we're stopping spending money on this because it wasn't performing for them. So it just, it ended. And I had no, almost no negative reaction. It was kind of amazing. I was like, okay, that's, I have no control over that. I did everything I could try and get it out there.

Maybe it's honestly, maybe it's flawed. Maybe there's things that didn't work. I don't know. In my opinion, I know I made the thing that was in my heart to make. And we had this incredible experience doing it. And I thought like hell almost done to get this thing made. And we did that. I'm not going to let like what's happening today.

I'm going to let it invalidate all of that. Really? That's powerful, man. That would be insane. Like, why would I do that? Yeah. And it was a huge lesson for me, and I was, and I was cool with it, you know, and I, um, you know, my friend Sam Rockwell, who was in and gave this brilliant performance. And Sam, everyone was telling, oh, Sam, you're going to get an Oscar, right?

And they, and they were, you know, pumping him up. And it was hard for him because he was hearing all that. And I called me. I was like, man, you're so incredible. And he was like, I started to believe, I started to believe it. And it was really hard. He started, like, buy into that. And he's not like that at all.

and he's a great artist and a few years later he won an Oscar so he's okay at the end of the day. I'm just saying it was like anybody can fall prey to this so that was a real lesson to me that I've tried to hang on to because it just made

it made me enjoy my work and life so much more you know I realized to what degree I was allowing those those that comparison thing and having your eye on the summit all the time to completely invalidate these amazing experiences

that we can have in life. It's hard, man. It's hard. Like, very, very freaking hard. Yeah. You know, and it's like, the one thing that I want the audience to take away from that is, you know, we don't know when things are going to hit.

We don't know. For sure. Nope. And you're going to go through loss and it's going to be painful. I mean, we lost a multi-million dollar deal last two weeks ago. Oh, did you know? And I thought my world was done.

Mm-hmm. And then I realized I was being a little bitch about it. Yeah, right. I'm like, dude, I don't know. Like, what am I? This could be a saving grace. Right. Maybe God saved me from something.

It's like, and then I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, Tony. That's right. Something could hit tomorrow and it could change everything. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you're a little bit higher up the wall, right? But I think, and my wife gets on me about this all the time. Isn't, it's great to have a good woman in your life. Oh, man.

I mean, you know, you've been married to your wife since 1987. Yeah. You know, and when I look at my wife, Jackie, it's like, you know, she says, just enjoy where you're at right now. Because if you think it's going to be the end, you're going to attract that. You're going to attract more of that. That's also true. That's very true. That is very true.

But the end game is like when when something hits and I'm able to take my breath and she goes, see, was it worth that? And the answer, 100% of the time is. no. Like, let's just be where we're at. It's hard too. I mean, look, it's great to be ambitious, to be passionate, to drive. Those are all great qualities. And it's as an expression of passion. And you can't, you can't make things happen. You can't build things if you don't have that. But when you do have that, it means you care a lot. So you're risking disappointment and paint hardish. You are. It just is. So you're like, all right, that's part of the, that's part of the, it's part of the deal, man.

And we're competitors. Yeah, I mean, exactly. You're not in your industry. I'm not in my industry if we're not, if we're not fierce competitors. Right. Exactly. I'm here, I'm here to win. Yeah.

You know, I'm not at your expense, but I'm here to beat you. Yeah, right. Like, straight up. Like, that's, that's what I'm here to do. And when I look at everything that we've gone through with the determined society and the growth patterns and the doubting from people. Like, when I started it, dude, people made fun of me. Really?

Like, oh, hell yeah. About what? Just about, like, what are you doing, dude? What are you doing, dude? What are you doing, man? Like, how's your little podcast? Hmm. Sitting here with Tony Goldman. Like, it worked out, like, because I kept going, you know?

But I think when when people look at, you know, things like building something, you want to compete, but you all, and there's numbers. And you now, too, we're going to get to this. I want to be respectful of your time. But I do want to get to the new thing you started with your daughter. Yeah. Because that is heavily driven by analytics. It's like, like how big muscles do I have, man?

Like, where am I at today? And this podcast industry is like that, right? But, you know, to constantly worry and not move forward because of what people may think is truly concerning because a lot of people will pull back. And like I mentioned, man, when I look at everything that we've been through in this show and building it. And there was times where I'd look at my wife

I go, I don't know how much I have left. Yeah. And she goes, you got a lot more left in you. What's the brand? That's a determination, discipline, resilience.

So that's who you are. So yeah, I know, I'm just talking shit. I'm just like, I'm just tired. I'm just tired. And I think it's okay to be tired. I think it's okay in moments like you've had in your career and moments that I've had in building the show.

It's okay to think about like I'm done. I'm going to quit. Yeah. Because I don't think people really understand, you know, how powerful those moments are because you're able to be, you're able to reflect a little bit and be like, okay, I'll just, you get to your, you get to your why. Like, I had that, I've had it several times. I do that all the time.

Someone's like, you know, I don't want to do this. I'm done. I don't need to do this. And then I'll go, then that frees me up to go, but I want to. Yeah. Because it's in me. Like the first time I directed a film, this movie A Walk on the Moon, which was like 25 years ago, I remember being on sending him so, the pressure was so enormous. Like I just had not experienced, like all this money it cost to make it and all these people breathing down your neck about are you on time and the budget and all this stuff.

You're just trying to, you know, create this thing. And these producers were giving me shit. And I was really, and I had to take a walk. There's one guy I was like, on my ass about where we were in the day and my schedule, you know, it was behind schedule, whatever it was. And I like, I got up and I went for a walk. And I was like, I don't have to do this. Right.

Yes, I'm in the middle of this whole thing. I chose to do this. I don't have to do this. I could literally, I can, for me personally, I can make a living as an actor. I can go back just being an actor and make a fine living. It was all good. I do not have to do this. They can, if I want, I can say, you know what,

you guys direct this movie. I'm out. See ya. Yeah. And I was like, yes, I could do that. And when I, once I was like, I could just throw in the towel. Then I was like, oh, but I don't want to. I really want to do this and screw them.

Like, I went back and I was like, shut up. This is what we're doing. I found that the thing of going, maybe I'm done. Yeah. Can be also a powerful. I think it's very, because you're able to uncover certain things, right? And I've had many points like you're talking about. It's like, wait a second, this is what I love doing.

Like, I love doing this. This is not, you know, I think it's all a matter of like, you've mentioned the why, you know, or purpose or what the burn really is and why you do something. I think for a lot of people in, and I can say our industry now because you have a pod is they see people ascending to a certain, level of social media fame. And they think, well, I can do that too. And it would be nice to, you know, be bothered by the public. And, you know, say, oh, I know who you are. You're the person that has this show.

Right. But they don't realize it doesn't happen like that very often. Right. You know, and the problem is when you get into it out of this vanity aspect of like, I just want to be known and I want to be seen, if that were my case, I'd have been done five years ago, like maybe three months after I started. Yeah. But for me, it's this deep-rooted sense of purpose.

It's like, I truly feel that someone's going to listen to our interview, and they're going to listen to the words that you say, and it's going to change their life. And that's what we're here to do. Yeah. It's for hope. Yeah. Like, no one ever said this shit was going to be easy.

And I'm talking about life. It's hard. And it's not supposed to be. Like, it's no good if it's easy. Okay. It's not good. But we want it to be, right? Sure, of course.

Because it's painful. Yeah. But then to make friends with the discomfort so that you're, it's like being an athlete, you know. If you're not feeling the pain, like, you're doing something wrong. You know, and then you're like, okay, well, that's just what it, that's what it is. My daughter was a, my wife and my eldest daughter were rowers. And my wife was like a national champion. No way.

And then Anna was a D1 rower at UCLA. And so that sport is painful, man. And, you know, they, when I told, when I told, I. listen to her talk about the training that they had to do, way more than anything I ever did. It was just making friends with the pain. Mm-hmm. You know, because they like to win.

Yeah. And they like all the things that came with, the teamwork and the bond and all the, you know, the challenge and all of that. But the discomfort of it, you know, you can't do that sport. I mean, any sport on a high level. No.

And not, so what keeps you in it? What is that thing, you know, that constantly trying to get better? or absolutely. I mean, everything, every day I go to work is when I say like the, why am I here? What am I grateful for to be here? It's always like, oh, how can I get better? How can I do this better?

How can we make this? What else can we do here that hasn't, that we haven't done or that can be more interesting? It's never, oh, someone's going to come up to me on the street and tell me how great I am. or I'm going to get a great review. Someone's going to write something nice about me. Those are pleasant moment. Like that's pleasant. If someone says, hey, man, love what you do.

Like, how many jobs can you have for someone? That's really nice. But to me, it has nothing to do with the work itself. That was also a period of a separation, a distinction I learned well along the way was those, that validation has not. is a completely separate thing from the work itself. Yep. It's positive and it's a bummer if somebody hates it.

You're like, oh, that's too bad. Yeah. But it doesn't, it doesn't, I know what I'm doing. I know what, like I'm doing my thing here. Some, you know what I mean? The reaction, it's super nice and exciting when you get like the hoopla or something really works out or you make a ton of money or whatever it is. That's great.

But do you know what I'm saying? I'm just listening. Separating out from the, the process. itself is like completely, I feel that it's completely, and the way I evaluate it, I may be doing something and I'm like, that's not good enough. Someone else may come and go, oh, I love that. I'm like, thank you. I'm glad you do. Yeah. I don't. So I got to keep working on it. Or something I think is amazing and someone's like dismissive of it. It's like, too bad you don't like it. I love it. I love this. Sorry. Yeah, but no, you said the word process, man. Like that, that word right there is so

powerful and people overlook it all the time. You have to have a plan, you know, and you have to understand not just what you need to do in order to get to that point, the top of the Mount Rushmore, but you got to think about who I need to become. Like, what does that person do every day? Do they sleep in? Do they break their word to themselves? Or do they follow through on every freaking thing that they say they're going to do? And if you can do that, just like you said, you might hit a wall and it might take you right to somewhere where you don't even know what's Well, it's over there, but it could be the thing. Yeah.

Because you stayed in your process. I just think it's super important for people to understand that. Real quickly, you know, let's talk about the pod. It's with Anna, right? Yeah, my daughter, Anna. Yeah, you guys are good. We have this, but, so I can't remember if we even talked about it yet, but, so I think you mentioned it.

Like, I'm the third generation of people in show business and my family, and my daughters are the fourth. So, Anne and I got really interested. We were joking about the whole Nepo baby thing. and she was actually going to do something with her cousin, like a comedy podcast about Nepo Babies. Because she's a television writer and then a screenwriter. But we started talking about it seriously,

and we were like, you know, we love the fact that we can talk about. They were in the same business. Like, it's a real unique thing that we share. And ultimately, even though my dad had a lot of trepidation at the beginning, it ended up being a very important part of our relationship that we had this intimacy that we shared, we had the shared a passion for this business. So we thought, wouldn't it be cool to do a podcast where we talk to other parents and children who work in the same business and find out what their relationships are like?

So cool. So we call it Far From the Tree. And we launched in September, I think. And we've done, I guess, 24, 25 episodes now. But we've interviewed actors. We started with Jane Fonda and her son, Troy Garrity, who's a wonderful actor. We've done, you know, a lot of athletes. So we just had a great episode with Sarah Strong.

and her mom Alison Feister, Sarah is the star of the Yukon women's basketball. I was having a right in the thick of it at the moment. Yes. And her mom Allison was a WNBA player and played collegially for Stanford and now works for the Celtics. And they're these two amazing women. We did also in sports. We've interviewed Coach Vic Schaefer, who's the head coach of the University of Texas

women's basketball team. And his daughter is his assistant coach. Oh, my God. And we're talking about their relationship. And that was awesome. But other, you know, lots of actors and musicians and people in business. And today we just had this, we recorded this amazing episode with these two women who live, are activists in Louisiana. In St. James Parish, Louisiana, they live in this place called Cancer Alley, which is a 75-mile stretch of chemical and plastic plants.

that, you know, the highest cancer rate maybe in the world. Wow. And Sharon, the mom, you know, in 2018, said, this has got to stop. And she had a calling from God. And she said, I'm going to do some of this. And she started this organization called Rise. And within, you know, I think she was named on the Times 100 list of most influential people in 2020, like three or four years later. That's so cool.

And it's become this big thing. And they've really shut down plants. And they've, you know. And her daughter works and, you know, took on this mantle with her and their activists together in orgas. So talking to people who have a shared passion. So that's what we do. And we have these amazing conversations. And sometimes we'll do it with, whether we do one with our family, we do one with Jane, my wife.

And we did one with our daughter, Tana's sister, Tess. And sometimes we just talk to each other. But mainly we have these amazing accomplished guests. I'm looking forward to that one coming out. Because that is generational change. Mm-hmm. Like that's massive, dude. Holy shit.

That one hits hard. Yeah. That one hits hard. That's going to change lives. Yeah. These two, that's amazing. Yeah. So yeah, it's been really cool.

And just getting to do this with my kid, like we had the best time. I literally, you know, try and find things to give us a reason to be together to do. She lives in LA and I'm here and I'm in New York. And so, yeah, it was really just like, let's do a project together. That's so cool, man. I love the fact that you make fun of the Nepo baby thing. Like, I don't really. believe in that because if you weren't as good as you are and if you know I mean you can

look at LeBron James and Ron. Oh my God, look at that. I mean, yeah, he might be there because of it, but I mean, to stay there is up to him. Dude, it's got to have game. You got to have game. And you have games. You're not an EPO baby, man. You had opportunities.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the other thing that makes me laugh is like, if you were a plumber, you'd go, well, of course your plumber, your dad was a plumber. Like you took over the family plumbing business or if you're a, you're a, you're a, you doctor and your father or mother were doctors, well, then of course you're a doctor. So somehow in, I don't know, in other parts of our culture, it's somehow it's like this, it's taken on this negative thing.

It's not why we're doing it, but that's just amusing to me. Yeah. And especially because I've found to be such a privilege to have that. I think it boils down to one thing, man. It's all good as long as you're not doing astronomically better than somebody. And once you do, and it's so high purpose. profile. They're like, nepo baby. Oh, maybe that's what it is. Yeah.

If you're a plumber, like, someone's going to give a shit. That's right. It's like, you know, like, and so that's just, that's just how I feel about it. You know, one day, I think my kids will take over this. Yeah. Because I think it's going to be my girls. Specifically, I think it's going to be my seven-year-old. And Matt probably knows because, you know, he's very close to my family too. And Mia's just a jeeper. It will be a media empire by then. It will be. There'll be a show for all Don't look to the top of Everest, but I'm telling you. Dang, man.

I know. Seriously. It's just know that it's there. It's a guilty pleasure of mine. It's just there. It's just hard. Sitting up there and, you know. You know, I believe, I believe that whatever we put out and then we enthusiastically act upon,

that's what happens. That eventually comes to pass in your life. 100%. But you have to be aligned and you have to work your tail off, man. And that's just the one thing that you've done. That's the one thing that I've done. anybody with any amount of significant success to get even a quarter way up that damn mountain, you better work.

It's just a work. That's been the freeing thing for me is it's not magic. It's just like, and you don't have to like kill yourself. You just need to keep at it. Keep just have a work ethic and be like a therapist that I want to say. He was like have a workman, just a task, task oriented mentality. Yep. A workman like thing.

Like, oh, okay, what's now? What do we got to do? What are we got to do? We just keep at it. And then there are moments of elation like, wow, wow, wow, yeah. That's something is really exciting, but a lot of times it feels like drudgery or, but just do it. It's like training, you know. For me, it's the chase, right?

So like, not the chase. It's a bad way to put it. But like when in our business and like, you know, like when you have a really interesting guest that's about to come on, you get excited about it, right? Don't you? So it's like when you have that and then you're going through the whole scheduling thing and you're back and forth with PR and then all of a sudden it hits, you're like, oh, right, that's a moment.

But when the cameras are on, that's game time. Yeah. Right. And then you look back at it at the finished product and you're so grateful for how it turned out. But I know for me, like when I look back at this interview, I'm going to go back, in my mind, I'm going to go back to D.C. It's like being in the right place at the right time because I decided to show up.

Right, right, right, right, yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, how many people would sit there in that room and be afraid to come up to you? Right. Come up to you. Yeah.

I'm like, not, man, to hell with that. Like, I'm going to say, what's up. Yeah. You know, and let me read the energy here and see what he's about. And it just my point is, it's just, success is so cool because it leaves the breadcrumbs

to what actually got you there. Mm-hmm. you know, and it's just doing the work, you know, and I, and my definition of determination is this, it's simple. Doing what you said you were going to do long after the emotion wears off. So you can, and it's quiet. I used to think, early on, I used to think that it was this roaring thunder. Look at me, hustle culture, I'm going to bury you type shit. It's not. Some days, it's you taking your shoes on and off 10 times before you actually walk out of the door and get to the gym. That's right. It's quiet. Yeah, no, that's sort of why.

what I was saying before about the task-oriented thing. Because also the hard charging thing, aside of me exhausting, that can become overwhelming. Like, because also when you, like, sometimes when I have a lot going on, and I'm like, I've got to be doing this, I've got to be doing that, I got, and it can be quite overwhelming, like, I'm never going to be, or I'm never going to be able to work hard enough to get to whatever it is. And you just go quite like, I don't have to do that, but I just got to do one little thing.

Just got to, you know, and maybe, maybe or punishing yourself, I didn't get to the gym. It's like, no, maybe I have to go take my shoes. That's what's happening today. Yeah. You know, okay. Happened you the other day. I just don't have my shit together today. So I, but I'm going to go.

Yeah. I'm going to get there. And once you get there, you struggle through the first set. Yeah. Get some water. You wait a minute, wait two minutes because you're not, you don't really want to do it. Right. But somehow something's magic about the second and third set.

Yeah, that's right. You're in the flow state now. That's it. You're, I'm like, all right, I'm here. I'm going to get my effort. Yeah. And what, to your point is, is like, task oriented. What that really is for me is, like, the way I equate that is I just remove the emotion from the task.

If I can remove the emotion from it. That's great. Right? And it's just like, this is what I said I was going to do. Yeah. My emotions don't fucking matter. Right. So if, you know, I had to make, I don't like the word had.

In the morning, when I get to make breakfast for all three of my children and have my coffee after the gym while they're eating at the little island in the kitchen and I'm also standing up eating and talking to them I would never emotionally shut down and not do that for them. They're my children. Yeah. So it's like when I look at things in terms of doing the task, it's just like I'm not going to bring emotion to it. Because there's other emotions going on, right?

I've wanted to be successful and wanting to, you know, overcome and, you know, overcome. in wanting to be the face of this industry. Because I know if I can get there, then I'm helping more people with actual impactful conversations instead of, you know? But that's the result that will just happen as a result of the incremental stuff. One day, buddy.

It's like, I mean, parenting, I found very much that. Like, 90% of everything in life has shown up. I do. So, like, with kids, the things of, hey, what a beautiful thing, those, you know, those, making breakfast for your kids. kids. I mean, I wish I'd have those days back, you know, when I was doing that every day or, you know, so, but I realized you think, oh, my God, parenting is so hard. There's going to be this, these obstacles

or how do I, you know, you think of the big swings, like, what am I going to, and you realize that, no, actually, it's just, just being present for the dumb stuff as much as you possibly can, and you're not going to be able to do all of it, but that those little things where nothing really happens, or no, do you know what I mean? Yeah, they just accrues to people, but creating people who feel they have this solid foundation and just they know that you love them and they know they're just things are never in question

and you're always there. It's not like the big, oh, we had this amazing talk today and we, you know, we saw this big problem. It doesn't have to be that. Those aren't the things, those happen, but those aren't the determinative thing. So the same thing I find, it's just like the little task-oriented things that keep,

like how do you get in shape? People ask me like, How do you stay in shape? Like you're older and how do you? And I'm like, well, I just do it every day. Like, I don't have to go and hit a hard workout every day. I don't have time to do that. Sometimes I do I really like to, but if I do something every day and then if I skip a day for

whatever reason, okay, I skipped a day. But the next day I want to, you know, if I just do something every day, I've, I don't know, I'm just, then I'm on the road. And that's everything. That's consistency and that's compounding interest, man. Compounding interest, that's what it is. You know, it's not about these astronomical, you know, swings of, you know, getting in shape. It's like...

Losing, I've got to lose 50 pounds or whatever. No, no, just move. Yeah. Like, isn't that the win? Yeah. Like, move. Get on the process and the progress of that goal. And to not measure yourself every single day of out of shame.

Because there was a long time where I could not get in shape. let me explain i could but i wouldn't because i was shaming myself because i hated the way i look you can't get anywhere like that it has to be again taking the emotion out of it okay i need to eat better what does that mean okay so then you don't eat you know the fast food all the time you don't eat this you don't you're not shoving cookies you know in your mouth at 9 p.m right doing the thing and moving your body and then all of a sudden things start to happen yeah you know and it becomes not just something that you feel like as a chore to do, but it's, I get to go do this. Well, then it becomes a habit.

Right. Because then, then that's the thing about fitness, for example, is even just a little bit every the regulator, then if I don't do it, my body's like, what, what? Yeah, what are you doing? You can't sleep. Or even if you eat healthy, you know, if you then eat crap, your body's like, all right, you just ate craps. You're about to pass out.

But it's not, but, you know, it's, yeah, it's just giving yourself like this, doing it in small bites is just fine. The other thing is that what we were talking about before, the constant evaluation, I feel that we have to be very disciplined about that, but not allowing ourselves to be in constant evaluation.

You know, once in a while, yeah, we check ourselves in the mirror, okay, yeah, look, the way I want to look. Leave that shit. Yeah. It's why social media gives me so much anxiety. Because I, like, I do social media for, you know, it's part of our, what's part of our promotional system. That's what it's up.

We have to, we do, it's a useful tool. And it can be fun. But I find it gives me tremendous anxiety. So I pretty much try and stay off it as much as I can or like, because as soon as you start, wait, how many followers do I have? How many likes did I get? How did this do? Don't even give me fucking star.

So once in a while, like, check it. You go, oh, yeah, that's nice. Okay. That's where I'm at, fine. Yeah. And you either get a dopamine hit or you're like, oh, bummer. Yeah. But if you're doing that all the time as a habit, you may, that's, that's, but it's the same thing.

It's like working out in the gym and every day going, how am I, how am I looking or how many am I, I, I'm on the scale every twice a day. And the scale doesn't tell you anything about your body. Checking your like investments every second. Like, how am I stock? That's insane. Am I being there yet? What the hell's going on?

Am I? And then you're not going to ever, no, just live your life. And then check. back. It's funny because I mentioned to you before I had the TED Talk last weekend. And, you know, there was there, like my team was there taking pictures and, you know, they took professional pictures as well. And there's a bunch of video that's not out yet.

But you need to let the measuring stick be what the proof actually is. So you never know what you look like because we're talking about fitness now. You don't know what your work even looks like until you look back at it. it and you see the finished product, which I don't think I'm a finished product by any means. But I saw the pictures on the stage and my friend was making fun of me because I sent it to him. He was like, dude, do they put a muscle filter on you? He's like, what happened to you? I was like, I don't, I don't know.

I'm just, it's every day. Right. It's every day. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like I, I'm, I'm actually blown away by what this looks like because I did not think that's what it was. Right. Because I didn't focus on it.

Right. You know, and we have body dysmorphia. Oh, dude, can not evaluate it. It's bad. Can't evaluate. Yeah, yeah. That's why, like, when I don't, I don't, even looking at myself, evaluating my work as an actor, you know, it used to make me insane when I was younger because I'd watch stuff and I'd be so highly self-critical.

I literally had to go to a psychotherapist about it because I started to become very, very tense in my work as an actor because I was so self-critical that I'd watch me, go, and that wasn't good. So every time I'd get up to me like, oh, I'm going to beat my own ass after a time. He says, you know, punish myself. But I'm trying to get better. I'm demanding. I'm tough on myself. I thought that was supposedly a good thing. And I, you know, I went to this shrink.

It was like, you're not allowed to do that anymore. He said, so every time you do a piece of work, whatever it is, a stage performance or a take on a movie set or an audition or whatever. It ends. You take 10 seconds. What did I learn? Did I achieve what I wanted? Did I achieve what I set out to do? What can I learn from that?

Okay, done. Never think about it again. Never think about it again. It was so hard. But I was like, it was like an extra. I had to, it was like, never think about it again. And what started happening was I became very disinterested in watching myself. Or even in evaluating what I did.

It wasn't that it became not interesting to me. And what became interesting to me was the doing of it. Like, that was cool. Like that was interesting. And also sometimes it's frustrating. Like, oh, I'm feeling how. How do I find, but I was present in it. Right.

As opposed to it always being, how am I looking in the mirror? How's my, you know, measuring my whatever, you know, if you're a weight lifter or whatever. Because you cannot be, it's not, you're not a good judge of yourself. No, I'm clearly not. Like, I'm not. You know, I mean, it just, it is one of those things, man. It doesn't equate to actually what's going on, what reality is. But you can't, I think it's impossible to be if you do it constantly.

Like, imagine what a terrible parent you would be. Oh my God. If you were constantly evaluating your kid. Like, how are you today? So how did it's going? So did you get this today? Did you get that today? How is your, you know, do that you destroy your child?

And you would have no joy in parenting. So we could check in with our kids. Like, they're doing fine. Yeah. That's all good. Yeah, oh, great. You had that up moment. Oh, a downside.

Oh, bummer. You know what I mean? So how's it generally going? I get generally it's going pretty good. You know? Yep. That's, that's, anyway. I mean, I hear you, man.

It's just important. I mean, I think the moral of everything we're saying is just do the thing, man. Do what you love to do. And if you don't have the opportunity to do what you love to do full time, do something else, but also do what you love as well. Yeah, do what you have to do what you want to do. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Like, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you took the rules right on my mouth. But, I mean, I just think it's important because we have to enjoy this life. We get one shot, one shot. And I found what I loved to do when I was 42 years old. It was 42, dude. So I'm almost 48. Yeah. And, you know, I could sit here and say, I'm so fucking behind.

Not behind what? I mean, exactly, right? I was like, I don't know, right? I would say you're ahead. Well, I mean. Or you're where you are, but it's like that's a beautiful thing to have found something. Yeah. Like, I truly enjoy.

And I know I would do it for free if I had the opportunity because I did it for free for almost four freaking years. It took that long. Yeah. And, you know, it was just something that I loved so much. It's like, oh, man, like, I love this more than I love to play baseball. Wow. And that's, and when, dude, when I said that to my, my wife and my son, my son shot like this and said, what did you say?

I go, it's not even close, bro. Wow. It's not even close. Baseball is my first love. And she's still my mistress. You put me on a baseball field. I don't want to be around any of you people. Right.

Like, I can go hide there. I will literally hide on a baseball field and enjoy myself but this is just better I just love it I love it so much do thank you so much Tony this has been so much fun

we're gonna keep in touch and you know I'm definitely gonna come to the Broadway definitely come yeah yeah so hopefully later this year you know it's gonna be in 26 or is it gonna be 27 it depends on we're now trying to find out

when the theater's available because that's the game of yeah I bet Broadway you know what's gonna close what's gonna be so we're trying to find the right space for it but it all looks So it looks good, so I'll let you know. I will be there with bells on.

Yeah. Well, I want to go to the opening night. Okay. I want to go to that. Stay in touch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. That would be really cool. Thank you.

Well, thank you again, bud. Like, this has been a real treat and such an open and honest conversation. Yeah, your show's great, man. Thank you, dude. Thank you. I love your show, too. Thanks. I do watch it.

I do watch it. I'm proud of what you and your daughter Anna are doing together. That's really, really freaking cool, man. Cool, man. Well, people check out far from the tree. Far from the tree. And we'll, you know what we'll do is I will make sure that they link that. Oh, that'd be amazing.

I can link it in the show notes at the bottom of everything. They'd be so helpful. They check out far from the tree. And anything I can do, man, like we have each other's numbers now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know this is a completely different industry, you know, and there's a lot of things that are moving constantly. Yeah, I might hitch up for some advice, yeah. Anytime.

Because I'm always like, what are we doing? Dude, any freaking time, open invite. Awesome. I would be more than all. honored to help out. Great, great, great. All right, guys, thank you so much for listening. Share this episode with somebody you know love and trust.

A lot of great advice from Tony on, you know, persevering through hard times with your career and even parenting. So, and also, you know, second chapters and starting new things and doing fun things with your children. So I thank you guys so much. And what I really want you guys to do is share this episode with everybody you know, love and trust. And until next time, guys, stay.

determined.