The Glenn Beck Program - Best of the Program | Guest: Andrew McCarthy | 9/16/25

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

Glenn tells the story of a mother whose young son called her out for not preparing him enough for what’s to come. Glenn reacts to actress Jamie Lee Curtis’ statement about Charlie Kirk’s assassination. Former Chief Assistant United States Attorney for New York Andrew McCarthy joins to break down why the harshest charges against the man suspected of killing the UnitedHealthcare CEO were dropped.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are we doing what we need to do to prepare our kids for a battle between good and evil? And what does that mean? And are our kids capable of it? I think there's a lot of people who think the younger generation just not capable of anything. And I think you are dead wrong. And I'm going to talk about that. Also, Jamie Lee Curtis reacts to Charlie Kirk's death. United Healthcare CEOs killer, the terrorism charges have been dropped.

But we talked to Andy McCarthy about that. He gives us an inside. This guy is going to pay, I think, the ultimate price, but he is going to never see the light a day. Even though New York is doing their best to keep him in jail for maybe only 25 years, Trump is going to make sure those federal charges stick, and he explains it all on today's podcast. First, let me tell you about the burner launcher.

If you're armed, you probably carry for the same reason I do, because evil does exist. But what about those moments when a lethal response? isn't legally justified, but it's still a threat. I mean, it's a real threat. That's where the burner launcher comes in. It's a non-lethaled handheld device that is for self-defense. It looks and feels like a firearm, but it shoots powerful pepper, tear gas, and kinetic rounds that can drop an attacker in their tracks, giving you the time you need to escape and react. Now, here's a thing. It's legal in all 50 states. No permit needed. No waiting period. You can carry it in your glove

box, your purse, your backpack, ready to defend you from the unthinkable. We train for the worst scenarios, but sometimes the goal isn't to end a life. It's to protect yours without firing a bullet. And the burner launcher gives you the options. Look, I don't know if you have a kid in college. I got questions for you. Why do you is your kid in college? I understand. But the other thing is, if your kids are in college, they should have a burner launcher. They can carry it on campus. It's legal in all 50 states. And it could be the difference between life and death. Burna, b-y-r-r-n-a.com slash Glenn. Burna.com slash Glenn. Learn more about it

at burna.com slash glen. Also, you can try before you buy it a sportsman's warehouse location near you. To find that location, go to burna.com slash glen. Hello, America. You know we've been fighting every single day. We push back against the lies, the censorship, the nonsense of the mainstream media

that they're trying to feed you. We work tirelessly to bring you the unfiltered truth because you deserve it. But to keep this fight going, we need you. Right now, would you take a moment in rate and review the Glenn Beck podcast. Give us five stars and lead a comment because every single review helps us break through big tech's algorithm to reach more Americans who need to hear the truth. This isn't a podcast. This is a movement and you're part of it, a big part of it. So if you

believe in what we're doing, you want more people to wake up, help us push this podcast to the top. Rate, review, share. Together, we'll make a difference. And thanks for standing with us. Now let's get to work. You're listening to the best of the Glenn Beck program. Welcome to the I will be at

TPSA tomorrow filling in for Charlie Kirk and I am honored to I have to tell you boy

I don't know what it's going to feel like to sit in his chair but we'll do that tomorrow. Listen I want to

talk to you about a friend of mine. I have a very dear friend. She's mom. She has some older kids. Later in life, she had a surprise, and it was a joyful surprise. So she still has one

young son at home. I remember she told me years ago when her son was four, he was getting ready for bed one night. And she pulled his pajamas on over his head, and she took her face in his hands. And she said, I just love you so much. And her son reached out, grabbed her face and said, Mom, someday I'm going to have to fight a great battle. And you are not getting me ready for it. Now, when she told me this, I said, what are you telling your four-year-old? You're like, by the way, Jesus is coming. And there's going to be a great battle. And the devil's going to get you. I'm like, what are you telling your kid? She's like, Glenn, we have never had a conversation about any of that.

Never. She's like, he's four. Why would I be saying anything like that? And she was just, her and her husband were like, what is happening? And he was dead set. There is a great battle coming and I have to fight it and you're not preparing me for it. Now, he's 11. She called me after.

the shooting with with charlie and she told me that the shooting reminded her of that moment with her son and then she said something so tragic because i know this woman i just i love her to death and i know i know her heart and i know the way she's raising her kids and she said to me i don't think i have been raising him, Glenn. I, I, I, even, even knowing that I'm supposed to, I don't know if I've done enough to prepare him for what's coming next to get ready for, him to get ready for what he has to do in his life. We all go through this one way or another as our kids, my kids, my two younger kids, moved out of the house this year.

And I'm terrified. I'm terrified. Because Tanya and I both say, we didn't do enough. We didn't do enough. And I got to believe our Heavenly Father might have had a moment of that as he's sending us through the, you know, through the veil and through the birth canal going, did I do enough to make sure? I mean, the work we have to do is the work of uniting all of us. This generation, I'm absolutely convinced. This generation is the generation that has been sent here at this time for a reason. And I think I know what that reason is, but I could be wrong.

I don't know. But I know it. And I've seen it. I've had two gatherings of youth at my house in the last 10 days. I had about 70 people over at my house last Sunday, and I think I had about 50 people over the Tuesday before Charlie was was shot. And I sat there and I taught them civics and history of our country and I showed them artifacts and tried to engage with them to get them to see the things that I see that they have

never been taught. And I saw it in their eyes. They are engaged and many of them know. Tough times are coming and while they don't want to talk about it per se, they know. They know. They know they're going to be the ones that are going to fix this and change this and take all of this on. I see it in the faces of my own children. My friend sees it in the face of her four-year-old who's now 11. And I think you see it too. The God-given potential of the generations that are behind us that are now coming up. William Wordsworth, the poet, said that birth is not.

not the beginning of our existence. Quote, trailing clouds of glory, do we come from God, who is our home? Each child comes to us with this divine light inside, an infinite potential. And if you've had more than one kid, you know it's not just nurture, because all four of my kids are wildly different.

as the kids raised the flag here at my ranch on Sunday, I looked around at them and I wished I could show them what I saw in them, the potential that all of them. I wish I could share with the youth just the glimpse of what I see. I wish I could send them a YouTube or Instagram or a TikTok video of who they really are, you know, a video of how I really see them, how God sees them.

But I think that is our mission. And we have to understand, can you imagine what the parents of the shooter feel like today? Hush, if you live in their community, I hope you let them know they're not alone. I mean, not to excuse the shooter or anything else. But my gosh, I've raised 14 teenagers now. and it is not easy.

And all of us, all of us, we all know you've got a wayward kid. And in today's world, it's even worse because there are predators out there waiting to take your kid. Our job, I used to think it was to save America, but our job is actually bigger than that. Our job is to lead the next generation to their work and not tell them exactly how to do it.

Because I don't know how to do it, do you? If I knew how to do it, I think we'd be doing it. I think too many of us think they're not capable. And we're treating our kids like kids. Stop it. They're not kids at 26. I don't think they're kids at 16. Things have changed.

Childhood has changed. Stop treating them like children. I mean, I know I'm like you. I get frustrated that our kids, you know. They're not like, used to be. They didn't have, you know who used to say that to?

The greatest generation, their parents used to say that too. They didn't have to work hard for a living. They don't know what it's like without these, this is literally what they said, without these fancy cars and refrigeration. They don't know what it was like to get a block of ice out of the lake

and bring it to keep your food cold. They're never going to be able to fight anything. They're weak. They were the greatest generation. We got to stop calling these guys lazy and lost because they're not. They may be lost, but just as lost as you and I are, I got to tell you, I'm lost. I fight every single day with something. There's something in my head.

Oh, man, pray for me, please. I've got so many things. I got this tangled knot in my head right now, and I haven't had this. Honestly, I had the opportunity to baptize my knees. on Saturday and her husband. And I stood in the waters and I'm like, Lord, can we just start over with me too? Can I just, you know, I know I'm not going under the water.

I'm baptizing somebody, but can we just start all over? Because I got this tangled knot in me and I've got so many things. What I did, what I didn't do, and I got to get rid of it all. Take it from me. Please. Take it. They're lost, but let's admit it. So are we. And I know the answer for me.

We just have to put our hand out to bring them to bring them with us and ask them to bring us with them as they fight for freedom. Bible says, and about the 11th hour he went out and found the other standing idle and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They said unto him, because no man has hired us. We have left them idle because we have left them idle because we. have, we've made the decision that they're not as capable as we are. Have you ever worked for somebody like that? Nah, I just do it myself. You don't get anywhere with that kind of person. They weren't sent here to be like us. That's the point. Again, if we could have fixed it,

we would have fixed it. They weren't sent here to be like us. They were sent here to be the battalion that God needs them to be for this time and for this moment. Let's stop trying to shape them in our image. It's our call to help them see who they are and to grow into the image that God has intended for them. I would love for my son or daughter to be like me, you know, like the things I like, because we'd have such an easy time on things and, you know, do the things that I want you to do. That's not the way it is.

It's not the way it's supposed to be. It's our call to help them. and he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds and from one end of heaven to the other. I think Charlie was one of those angels. I do. He saw the potential in the youth,

even though the culture was saying they were addicted to screens and they're apathetic, and they don't know what it's like to go drag the ice out of the lake. Charlie was gathering the elect, so they could bring together all of God's children from the four corners of the earth. Now it's our turn. We are the angels and they are the elect. Charlie saw that.

Charlie lived that. And it's time for people of my age to live that too. Mom, Dad, someday I'm going to have to fight a great battle. Please get me ready for it. If you're carrying a credit card balance right now, you're probably paying about 20% interest or more. Think about that for a second. While you are struggling to make ends meet, the banks are getting rich off your interest payments. You make a payment and the balance barely moves because you're spending everything in interest, right?

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May I compliment somebody on the left that does not agree with a word I say, and I know, because I know this individual, Jamie Lee Curtis. Jamie Lee Curtis came out and made a statement about Charlie Kirk, and I want you to hear it. Charlie Crist was killed two days ago. Yeah, Charlie. I'm sorry. Kirk. Kirk, I just call him Christ. I think because of Christ, because of his deep, deep belief.

I mean, I disagreed with him on almost every point I ever heard him say. Yeah. But I believe he was a man of faith. And I hope in that moment when he died that he felt connected to his faith, even though I find what he, his ideas were abhorrent to me. Yeah. I still believe he's a father and a husband and a man of faith, and I hope whatever connection to God means that he felt it.

Yesterday was 9-11. I know there is video of his assassination. I know people who've seen it. yesterday we watched again these images of those buildings coming down. We as a society are bombarded with imagery. So we don't know what the longitudinal effects of seeing those towers come down over and over and over and over again. or watching his execution over and over and over again. We watched the Zabruder film, by the way, my birthday, November 22nd.

I'm associated with this awful day of someone being assassinated on television. But it's, as you know, the Zabruder film is the only visual document that moves. that shares that horror of what happened. But here we have now these images. All the time every day. And we are inured to them and we are numb to them, but they are in there. We don't know.

We don't know enough psychologically about what that does. What does that do? That kind of, I don't ever want to see this footage of this man being shot. I didn't watch it. I think it diminishes the depth of humanity. Now, I would like to point out that she's making a very good point of what this does to

you psychologically. She is also, you know, making, you know, the Halloween movie, the Halloween movies as well. And I would like to just point out, and this is not a critique on her because I love, I love her. I love what she just said, okay? She strongly disagrees with him, but she handled it perfect. But I, you know, I would like people who make movies to ask themselves, okay, but are we also cheapening death and life by the movies we make?

Because I think the answer to that is yes. I don't know by how much, you know, but it has to. You put garbage in, you get garbage out. But again, she handled that perfectly. and I don't know how if she's getting hate or anything else. I know it's talked about this yesterday that Kristen Chenoweth, a big Broadway star did the same thing. And she is being blackballed now by her own industry.

For what? For standing up and saying, this guy shouldn't have been shot? I mean, it just shows the depth of darkness that is living. in our society. And it just, it just has to stop. So thank you,

Jamie Lee Curtis, for handling this the right way. And, you know, it's funny because I, I met Jamie Lee Curtis. She was on my show years ago. And,

oh my gosh, you found a picture. If you're watching the blaze, wow, is that even me? Wow. But she looks great, Ben and now,

weirdly. I know she does. I can't say the same. No, thank you. But she was on my show at that time, and I'll never forget. Do you remember, I spent an hour with her, and at the first, she was sitting in her chair, and she was just pushed back, and she had her arms across her chest, and I said to her point, I said, are you okay?

And she said, you scare me. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, you scare me. I watch your show, and sometimes you say things that scare me. and so we talked about it and that picture was taken after and look at her I mean she's

next to me she's got her head on my shoulder her arm around my arm and I thought we had become not friends but friendly to one another because and we still disagreed with each other we still disagreed with each other

but she was a reasonable human being and obviously she is still a reasonable human being that I I disagree with almost everything she says. And I'm sure she says the same thing about me. But thank you, Jamie Lee Curtis, for being a decent human being. Thank you for that.

Now I wish that could happen to everybody who steps out a line. And I mean that on both sides. Not on this issue. But, you know, sometimes, you know, you step out of line. Who are you to say that? Now, let me take you to New York. A decision has just been made. And one, I absolutely positively do not.

understand. And we're going to get, we need to get Andrew McCarthy or somebody on today or tomorrow to help me out with this one. But the killer of the United Healthcare CEO, let's remember who he is. He went to New York with a gun, with the intention of killing that guy. Stu, I know we have laws when you have when you have a plan to murder someone and it's a well thought out plan and then you do murder them what is that called we usually call it first degree murder first degree murder why what is premeditation yeah premeditation okay premeditation did he have premeditation Absolutely without question. Without question.

Without question. Have you heard any piece of evidence that would make you say, well, that is kind of questionable? No, not at all. Not at all. The New York, is it the Supreme Court? The New York Supreme Court? New York Supreme Court Justice Gregory Caro is his name. He said the evidence presented to the grand jury does not support charges of murder in the first and second degrees under the state's terrorism staff.

statute. Now, when I first read that, and this is why Andy McCarthy would be perfect on this, because he actually operated in this world constantly. But like, you know, a terrorism statute, there are certain things, and we've seen this in previous cases in New York, where the normal way we use a term is not the way the law is exactly written. And so to me, this is absolute crystal clear terrorism. This is what he was trying to do. He was trying to create a sense, in his own words, basically, about how he wanted these executives to walk around, constantly turning their heads, wondering of whether they're going to get shot or not, right? Like, this is the textbook definition of terrorism. By the way, Andy McCarthy just confirmed

he'll be with us in 45 minutes. Oh, perfect. He'll explain this. We're going to get the answer on this one. But that is the textbook definition of terrorism. Murder in the first degree, the textbook definition is, I've got a plan, I'm going to go kill this guy, I'm bringing a gun, I'm driving through the tunnels, I'm going in, I'm parking my car, I'm waiting for him outside of his hotel to come in or come out so I can shoot him.

That's the definition of premeditated murder. And the Charlie Kirk situation would be the same type of thing, right? Like both terrorism and premeditated first degree murder. I mean, it is as... Exactly right. Now, again, not being an attorney in New York, it's possible that that terrorism situation has some distinct characteristic that makes this not qualify. We'll know that from Andy very soon. So then drop the terrorism and just try him for first degree murder.

This is what they say. I mean, this murderer, which I'm not going to say his name for many reasons, will still face trial on murder in the second degree and other related counts. But he no longer, Glenn, faces the possibility of life in prison without prison. parole. Let me just tell you something. New York, you keep going down this road. You're going to elect Mom Donnie and you're going to have free buses, which are going to be basically mobile homes for the homeless. You're going to have crime that is absolutely out of control. Your industries in New York City are absolutely going to collapse. You keep passing these laws. You keep doing these things with these Democrats that are far leftist in your state. You're going to get. You're going to

the future you so richly deserve. Now, when I say that, I just want to put a caveat. When I say richly deserve, do not confuse that with being rich because there won't be any businesses that will want to do business in New York State or New York City. So don't confuse the future that you so richly deserve with actually being rich. You will be poor, you will be destitute, you will be living in an absolute hellhole. You cannot, look at, I mean, the choices between left and right, good and evil, have never been more clear in my life. In my lifetime, they've never been as clear as they are this week, just this week.

Are you celebrating the death of somebody? Are you excusing the death of somebody? Okay, nobody excused, I mean, well, I'm sure there were people that excused the death of Martin Luther King, but is it anybody you'd want to be associated with? Was there anybody that was excusing the death of JFK or RFK? Sure there were. Is it anybody you would want to be associated with? Why are you doing it today?

Why are you doing it today? You should be crystal clear on that, crystal clear. And so much of America is not crystal clear on that. when it comes to policing our own streets, you can disagree with what the president is doing. Well, you actually can't because he did it legally in D.C. And he's doing it now in Memphis because he was invited in by the governor, exactly the way the Constitution calls. You could have argued with him if he would have gone into Chicago. And I would have been on your side, making a case both ways, but probably leaning more towards your way.

I'd have to see how he did it. But he can't just bring in troops without very special. specific things. So he didn't do that. But how are you arguing against policing your own streets? How are you arguing against this guy not being tried for first-degree murder? Like Stu said, I don't know, the terrorism part. We'll find out about that. But what kind of loophole is that? That's insane. If you don't start punishing people, if you don't start holding people accountable, it's only going to get much worse. And that is simple common sense.

This is the best of the Glenn Beck program. We have a good friend Annie McCarthy, who is a National Review contributing editor. He's also a former Chief Assistant U.S. attorney, and a guy who when he speaks, I almost always agree with him. And when I don't, I'm probably wrong. especially when it comes to things like this because this is his expertise.

He was a former chief assistant U.S. attorney and he worked on terror most of his career. I mean, he is well versed on terror charges and how to try them. This Luigi Mangione case, the terrorism charges have been dropped. And Andy, if I remember right, came out with an article, I think of last year, and said, this is not going to stand. These terrorism charges aren't going to stand. And I don't understand why they won't. And I also don't understand how he's now only going to be charged with second-degree murder.

When he was clear, he was stalking the guy. He was, I mean, he planned on killing him. He was waiting for him outside. I mean, that's premeditation, which is murder one. But I know Andy will have all the answers for us. Can you make sense of this for us, Andy? Yeah, I'm afraid I can, Glenn. And I think to start with the second point first about why it's murder two rather than murder one, back in the Pataki days, which is like the 1990s in New York when he was governor, they tried to revise the New York capital murder statute because they haven't done a death penalty case in New York in decades.

And this was not, this ultimately was not a successful effort. They still haven't revived the death penalty. what they did was they took the things that you could get the death penalty for, which in New York were only things like killing a police officer or killing a prison guard in the prison. And they made those the only murder in the first degree varieties of homicide. And all other murder. Well, because they were trying to clean up, their idea was they were trying to clean the statute in a way that murder one would be.

revived as capital murder. Death penalty. And all other murder was going to be second-degree murder. So because what we're dealing with with Mangione, under New York law, would not have qualified for the death penalty because that would have been very, very narrow, and it's mainly killing police officers or prison guards. That puts it into the category of second-degree murder. That doesn't mean, by the way,

that it's unsurious. It has a, I think the offense in New York is like 25 years to life. So it's, for a state, it doesn't have a day. I mean, you can argue against the death penalty, but the guy should get either the death penalty or life without parole, not 25 years. This guy is, help me out on this one. How is he not a terrorist?

He had the intent to terrorize. He said himself he wanted people to look over their shoulders. I mean, he is a textbook terrorist and premeditation. Textbook. Yeah, to prove terrorism, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt an intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. And you have to sort of get out of the mindset that murder is terrorizing. I mean, all murder is terrorizing to the people who are obviously involved in it

and to the extent that it intimidates people, but we can't turn every murder into terrorism. Correct. But terrorism is about... But isn't terrorism about trying to scare the population to either vote different or change the laws to be so terrorized that they, in this particular case, he was trying to send a message to the industry.

You better watch your back because there's more of me and you'll get it in the end. That's terrorizing a group of people to get them to act in a way the terrorist wants them to act. Yes, but it's not terrorizing. Isn't that how we define it? It's not terrorizing the government to change policy or terrorizing the whole civilian population. What the judge said is this was very narrowly targeted at the health care industry and this particular health care executive. and I guess I just don't think it trivializes the murder to say that it's not a terrorism crime.

Okay. You know, the federal government, Glenn, just so we're clear on this part of it, there were two charges brought here. There's the federal charges and the state charges. So Alvin Bragg, the New York DA brought the terrorism charge. I said at the time, I thought he was bringing it because he knew the Justice Department wanted to charge this guy. So he wanted to make a slash like the Justice Department wanted to make a splash. The Justice Department, when the Justice Department indicted it, even though Biden is against a death penalty and the Democratic administration was against the death penalty, they indicted it as a death penalty case because they wanted to make a big to do over it. even though, you know, if you look at the fine print, they would never impose the death penalty.

They had a moratorium on the death penalty. So in order not to be out of 10, indict only as a murder case, if you could get Greg to indict something that was actually a crime. And he decided to make it a terrorism murder case so that, you know, they could compete lines in the press. Unfortunately, this is kind of what happens in these turf battle cases. point about charges, which are the death penalty charges, include exactly what you're talking about,

the fact that this guy blooded. If he gets convicted in the federal system, the Department rather than Biden, if he gets convicted on the death penalty charge, he's going to get the death penalty. Okay, so it's not like he's getting murder in the second degree and he'll be out in 25 years. The federal government is also trying him.

Will it be the same trial? No. No. In fact, the interesting thing, Glenn, just from a political standpoint, I hate having to get political in this stuff. I know. Me too. Avoid it. The Biden Justice Department was working cooperatively with Bragg.

I don't think the Trump Justice Department is going to work cooperatively with Bragg. No. The interesting thing about that is under New York law, they have a very forgiving double jeopardy provision, which basically means if the feds go first, that will probably block New York State from going at all because of their expansive protection. And I think what Biden's Justice Department was willing to let Brad go first so that they'd go second and then everybody would have a piece of it. I'm not sure that Trump's guys are going to play ball with that. Okay, so are you confident that justice will be served in this?

Well, I think that, you know, look, I think if your idea is justice served, will this guy be convicted of a severe murder charge and never see the light of day again? I am confident in that. Yes. If you believe, as I do, that if you're going to have a death penalty in the law, which our Constitution permits, He deserves it. If you're going to have it, he deserves it. And if he doesn't get it, he would be, you know, he'd be among a long line of people who probably deserved it and didn't get it.

So I guess it depends on what your idea of justice is, but I guess if we can agree that justice, this guy never sees the light of day again, I think justice will happen here. Okay. Can I switch to Charlie Kirk? How is this unfolding? What are your thoughts on this? What are your thoughts on, you know, I really want to make sure we don't go too far.

You know, I don't want another Patriot Act kind of thing. But I do believe, you know, it appears as though there may have been many people involved, at least in knowing. What does that mean to you and what should happen? What should we be doing? What are we doing that is right and wrong? Well, to the extent, I do think, Glenn, that this is being very aggressively investigated by both the state authorities and continuing by the federal authorities. I heard Cash Patel, because I happened to be on television this morning and they broadcast that while I was on. And he was talking about how they are going through all of the social media stuff to see who.

may have had an inkling about this beforehand, and if there was any conspiratorial activity, they're going to go after it. Now, the chats that have come out so far that have been reported in the last couple of days are chats in which Robinson admitted to committing the homicide and told the people that he was chatting with that he had already arranged his surrender. If that's all these people knew, that is to say that he had, you know, he was discussing and he was turning himself in. Well, they might be good witnesses in terms of what his state of mind was at the trial of Robinson, but I don't think that implicates them in criminal misconduct. On the other hand, the feds are going to keep digging, and I assume Utah is going to keep digging,

and if they find out that somebody was involved in planning this, I think those, people? You know, there's probably Texas would be a bad place to commit this crime. Utah, however, they have the death penalty and they use the death penalty and the governor who I'm not a big fan of this governor

but boy, he has been very strong and I think right on top of this whole thing and he said day one, you will get the death penalty. We catch you. We prove it in court of law, you will get the death penalty and I think that's coming for this guy. It should, well,

Just for anything that's indicative of premeditation and repulsive intent, I would say this is a textbook case of that. The idea that Trump is now going to go after possibly RICO charges for people like George Soros and, you know, organizations like that that are pushing for a lot of the, you know, the Antifa kind of stuff. Do you see any problems with that, or is this a good idea? I just think the first thing, before you get into RICO and all these, you know, RICO's a very complicated statute, even when it obviously applies. So I think the bedrock thing they have to establish is that you are crossing the line from protected speech, a lot of which can be obnoxious speech,

an actual incitement to violence. And if you can get incitement to violence, you know, I didn't need RICO to prosecute the blind shape, right? I was able to do it on incitement to violence and that kind of stuff. Those are less complicated charges than RICO, but the big challenge in those cases, Glenn, is getting across the line into violent action as opposed to, you know, constitutionally protected rhetoric.

Is there anything to the subversion of our nation on, you know, that you're, you're intentionally subverting the United States of America? You're, you're pushing for revolutionary acts? You know, there's a lot of those out of that in connection with the Cold War and the McCarran Act. And, you know, you remember all the stuff from the 40s and 50s forward. Yeah, I know. And I think when that stuff was initially enacted, the country was in a different place. I think when the McCarron Act was enacted, it was a consensus in the country that if someone was a member of the Communist Party, hadn't actually done anything active to seek the violent overthrow of the U.S. But mere membership in the party, I think if you asked a question in 1950, most people would have thought that was a crime.

and by 1980, most people would have thought it wasn't a crime based on what the Supreme Court was doing with the First Amendment. If you're a member of the Communist Party, you can be a member of the Communist Party. But if you are actively subverting and pushing for revolution in our country, I think that's a different, I think that's a different cat all entirely. Yeah, that's exactly right. But if you have that evidence of purposeful activity, and look, if you have a conspiratorial agreement between two people that contemplates the use of force, you don't need much more than that. You don't need an act of violence if you have strong enough evidence of conspiracy, but you do have to establish that they get over that line into the use of force, at least the potential use of force. Okay. Andy, as always, thank you so much. Appreciate your insight.

Appreciate it. Thank you, Glenn. me feel yeah make me feel a lot better about this i don't know about used to