The Glenn Beck Program - Best of the Program | Guests: Russ McKamey, Bill O'Reilly & Megan Phelps-Roper | 11/1/19

Episode Date: November 1, 2019

McKamey Manor is so intense that it requires a 40-page waiver and a safe phrase, and NO ONE has made it to the finish line (and the prize)! Founder Russ McKamey walks Glenn through the tactics the Manor uses and what the petition to shut it down has gotten completely wrong. Bill O’Reilly has the latest impeachment news. He and Glenn debate whether the Pope is a good man after he says it’s “an honor” to be attacked by conservatives and whether Barack Obama is “woke.” But reformed Westboro Baptist member Megan Phelps-Roper recognizes the division overtaking our country. Her new book, “Unfollow,” details how to help people who hate others. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, welcome to Friday. We have the McCamey Manor. Well, we don't actually have the Manor. We have Russ McCamey on. He's the guy from the McKinney Manor. If you've not heard about this, this is a place in Tennessee that Pat told me about yesterday. And we started reading about it. We're like, I got to get this guy on.

It's a freak show. It is. There's over 80,000 people signing a petition to try to shut him down. And it's supposedly the best haunted house in the world. Scariest most extreme. Yeah. And no one's ever. He offers $20,000 to anybody who can make it.

No one makes it. We talk to him about it. And it's really bizarre. Not as bizarre as our time with Bill O'Reilly today. Or Megan Phelps Roper, who is a woman who was part of the Phelps family, you know, the Westboro. Baptist. Baptist Church. That and Sugar Bear, the pimp that, you know,

killed his girlfriend. No, he didn't kill her. No, he just chopped her up and put her in in the freezer. Okay, all right. You're right. You're right. You're right. He's being tried for murder. But he testified just yesterday that he didn't kill her. He just chopped her up. This is a Friday episode you don't want to miss.

You're listening to. The best of the Glenback program. Remember the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland and his most famous line? We're all a little mad here. Well, welcome to 2019 in America. Congress is trying to impeach the president this week for, well, I don't know. You know, they had to drop their attempt last week to impeach Kavanaugh baselessly, so they could baselessly impeach the president this week.

They're basically squirrels. you know, or dogs that are like squirrel, squirrel. They keep seeing a nut, something shiny in the wind, and they've got to move. The constant assault on our constitution, the rule of law and liberty is something that is subsidized by many large corporations in the United States. And your cell phone company may be among them. Patriot Mobile, you know, we've often said, you know, I can't stop going to see movies because we're not making enough good movies. you know, with a conservative or at least a common sense bent to it. I can't boycott Hollywood.

I can't boycott Johnson and Johnson. What am I going to do? Well, you can. You can replace your cell company and get the same great service at a fraction of a cost, and you will ensure that your money is going for that service to a veteran-led company. and they're not taking that money and spending it at Planned Parenthood, giving it to La Raza, giving it to anti-free speech movements. They're giving it to the things that you believe in.

So now is the time. Put your money where your mouth is. Let your money do the work while you are on the phone. Switching is really easy. Go to patriotmobile.com slash back or call them at 8773.3. 3677524. That's 877-367-75-24. Or just go to Patriotmobile.com slash Beck. Switch today. Patriotmobile.com slash Beckamy Manor, not your standard haunted house. It's an audience participation event in which you as an individual will live your own horror movie. You have to be in great health. you have to be drug-free.

You have to have a doctor's slip, I believe. You go through all kinds of things that you must complete, including a three-to-four-hour release form. And of all things, you also cannot swear. This is the craziest thing ever. Russ McCaney is the owner. He's been doing it for about 30 years. And there is actually a petition now to get him to stop doing it. Nobody's hurt by it. It's not any kind of sexual gratification kind of thing. This guy used to be in the military and knows how to get to people. and he is a fascinating individual. Russ, how are you?

Do we have Russ on the... I see him there. We have him? For some reason, we can't get him on the phone. All right, can you call him back, please? For some reason, our phones aren't working. This is really going to piss me off. Yeah.

There he is. Russ. How are you? I'm here. Yeah, where are you guys at? We're here. We're just your worst nightmare. No, actually... I can't, I really cannot understand what's happening here because everything I've heard about you is that you are a really good, normal, nice guy.

And yet you bring everybody's worst nightmare to reality. Yeah, they get kind of hysterical about this whole thing. And I don't know what the deal is. I mean, it happens every year around this time of the year. the whole shut McCamie Manor down. But no, I don't get it either. It's just that, well, I do get it. I make these crazy movies.

I make these wild YouTube films. And they look scary because they're supposed to look scary. I mean, I'm a filmmaker, so I'm trying to make it look as scary as possible. And people just get really upset, blow things way out of proportion. And now they're doing anything and everything to shut me down. And I don't know if it's going to happen. I mean, this is America. This is, you know, I don't know.

Look, Russie, here's the thing. I am so intrigued by you. You're a fan of the show, are you not? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, okay. So you're, I mean, a lot of people on the left would say that shows how sick you are. But I'm fascinated by you because you are a, you are a, you don't seem to be doing. this just for hype or for kicks. You've never heard anybody, right? No. Okay. No, it's not that. No one gets

hurt. It's very safe. It just seems frightening when you're going through. And it's all just a big, a big show, big illusion. But I definitely have a few people kind of fooled into thinking it's something other than the other aspect. Right. But you have been, I've seen a video where you've buried a person except for their open mouth. Well, yeah, of course. Well, yeah, of course, obviously. You got to put a cage over somebody's face and bury them alive. Obviously.

I mean, who hasn't done that before? Right, right. So I'm wondering, let's just start here. Why do people do this? They're just major adrenaline junkies. These are people who have lived and they've done all the bungee jumping and skydiving and then all the exciting things out there and nothing really affects them anymore. So they come to me like, oh, I really want to feel this again.

I want to feel what it was like when I wrote my first roller coaster. I saw my first scary movie, help me out, Russ, help me out. I'm like, okay, I can help you out. That's bizarre. So it's definitely not some sort of, you know, sexual thing. there's there's none of that going on no in fact there's there's there's three very very big rules in the manner there's nothing sexual there's nothing inappropriate and there's nothing religious so we keep it there's nothing you know satanic or i mean there's nothing like that

in there whatsoever never has been it's very pg 13 it's just like an indiana jones ride on steroids kind of you know and like you mentioned there's no cussing i mean how scary can it be there's no cussing. Well, there's no cussing. You are, you find, everybody starts with 20 grand. And then I understand that if you cuss, you're, you're docked $500. So there might be cussing, but they're panelized for it. That's right. That's right. Okay. You learn real fast. Well, I won't say that anymore. And so, yeah. So now each of these are custom to each person, because aren't you just doing really enhanced interrogations? Basically, yes. And it's customized for that one individual or two folks that go through per week. It's funny, you know, we talk to their parents or talk to their family

and friends or the coworkers, and they're more than willing to throw them under the bus. They're more than willing to get us all the dirt about what really scares them. And so we do a lot of investigative work to find out what's going to make a good show of that individual before anything starts. So there's a lot to it. It's not just showing up and going, okay, I'm here, Russ, torture me now. You know, and I hate that word because no one's tortured anyways. But, you know, that's what the audience seems to think.

And that's why that petition has gained so much speed, which is just incredible. It's like 80,000 plus, you know, signatures now, maybe more than that. It's over a haunted house, over somebody just doing a hobby. It's not even a business. It's just a little old hobby. People pay you in dog food, right? Dog food, yes. One big bag of dog food helps towards the best of animals.

And, yeah, so that's it right there. It is. It's crazy. Okay, all right. Let me just add it. Is there, I mean, if you go through enhanced interrogation, I know Navy SEALs and I know people in the military who have gone through it for real, and it does psychologically scar you.

Well, hopefully we're not scarring anybody. It's not as intense as if you went to like Sears School, which is search and rescue and survival school, that type of thing. And our buds training, you know, which is a SEAL training. It's not like that. but I definitely do take aspects of what I learned in the military after 23 years. And it's just a lot of common sense. I mean, you know, I do hypnosis, which everybody knows I do that.

And I'm not hiding it from the audience when they first come here. One of the first things on the contract is saying, you know that I'm going to try to hypnotize you. Now, I may not hypnotize everybody, but I'm going to give it my old college try here. Because if I can do that, then they're like, putty in my hands at that point again. And so there is mind control

techniques, but in a fun kind of way. Not in some... That's what's so crazy about this. I've seen videos where this woman is just, she looks like, and I know it's not, but she looks like she has blood all over her face. She looks like

she's in hysterics. She's got something in her mouth that's keeping her mouth open and you're like, okay, it's about to get intense. and you're like, what? Are you okay with that? Are you okay?

You seem like Santa that is bringing somebody through hell. Maybe a little bit. I'm always checking on people. I'm always stopping the show to ask if they're mentally and physically okay to go on. And that's what a lot of people don't see. You saw that little tidbit, and that's probably a mistake in editing. But who knows? I'm sure it's out there.

but I'm always trying to make sure that people know and that the person going through knows that they're safe. And they have total control. They can stop the show any time they want to. This deal of not having a safe word that ended several years ago. Because there was a time, I have to admit, that we didn't offer a safe phrase, and they signed up to go as long as we wanted them to go.

It's so interesting. Wow. But now, yes. there's absolutely a safe phrase. So you would be fine, Glenn. I think you might want to try this just as a... You know. No.

What's the longest anybody's gone since you've had the safe phrase, Russ? How long is... Because you say the show can last up to 10 hours, right? Right, right. So the way it works is that you have to start the clock. You have to do an event, grab a key, open a door, do something to start the clock. Once you start the clock, then your 10-hour meeting. is on, but nobody has even started the clock yet.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Wow. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. You've buried people with their mouth open.

That's not on the clock? You have to get to a certain point of being buried. You have to have a certain depth, so to speak. And once you get to a certain point, now the clock starts. Now, I must say, there is a certain point. There is one woman who's actually coming back here again in November. She's been through it nine times. And she's this solid, upstanding individual, you know,

who works in Washington, D.C., and a big high player. And she just loves the stuff. But we counted up how much time she spent inside the actual manner. And she's been inside 45 hours of actually doing activities, He's 45 hours of doing different things. So. My God. There's a lot.

Is Elizabeth Warren? Nancy Pelosi? Yeah. Have you ever had like a Navy SEAL or Delta Force try this? I have. You have? I have. And they have not made it through, huh?

They have, they have not. They have not. And I get a lot of military folks. In fact, military folks are my favorite because they have their head on a swivel. They know how to overcome. adapt. They know how to, you know, they're not, they're not knuckleheads. And this is definitely a non-knucklehead zone. And, you know, we don't want the crazy ones. We don't want the ones are just trying to come here just for the money, because if you're coming here for the money,

you're going to be really upset when you leave here because you're not going to walk away with anything because the manner is always going to win. But in a fun way, you know, it really is fun. That's why the testament to that is why people come back time and time again. No, it doesn't sound fun. No, it doesn't sound fun. I know, I know. I'm telling you, you got to try it. No, I'm not a candidate for this.

Let me hypnotize you. Yeah, yeah. All right. Hang on just a second. We'll continue with Russ McCamee from the McCamey Manor. You can follow it and find it at McCamie Manor. com. It is while Netflix just did the movie on it.

It's pretty intense. So Russ McCamey from Macaamy Manor. You're in Tennessee, a place called Summertown, which I believe the Heatmiser had to give it to his brother so it could snow there one Christmas. But you are, how does the town react to you? Oh, they see over me, and they still do. In a good way or a bad way? in a bad way. At least the leadership.

You know, the leadership, my first got here, they put out a community alert saying, get this guy out of town. This is where he lives. Go get him. You don't want him here. You go tell him you don't want him here. Basically, I had a target on my back for quite a while.

And then the town folk, they started kind of coming around my way. They started meeting me and thought, this guy's okay. It's not like what we thought he was. But the leadership, a whole different ballgame because they kind of put their neck out there saying we're going to get him out of town no matter what and that hasn't happened so they're still looking for ways to

get me out of town is that what happened to you in san diego or did you just move no no no that's a rumor that's a rumor that's a rumor that probably i started because i like to start a lot of stories I love a guy who says, I probably started. Can't confirm nor deny. Right, right. Right. Okay, so now let me give you some things. The petition claims that you hire employees with violent histories and you make people ingest pills that cause hallucinations.

Right. Well, first off, there are no employees because it's just a little low russ. So you come to the manner. There is nobody here except me against the contestant. That's it. My noggin against their noggin. And their job is just not to let me get in their head. So that's not true.

In San Diego, we had some actors, but as far as what their backgrounds were, I have no idea. Never heard about violent histories or whatever. So that's a nice little story. The pill situation, again, here's where people have. to put on their logic caps. And I know it's hard to do sometimes for certain folks, always wanted to sign that silly petition. But if I was really, really doing things that were illegal and giving medication to people and torturing people and doing this and that, that would be illegal. I don't care where you're at. That's not allowed. So there must be something more to the

situation. And that's where the hypnosis comes in the play. Because if I hypnotize you, like I was saying earlier, I can make you believe whatever I want. And that's the magic of the manner. Without giving too much away, just kind of add two to together and realize that if all this stuff is going on that's in the petition, I wouldn't be here right now. I'd be locked away in the Burkage Theater someplace. I'd be gone. The petition says you're literally running, literally, I'm quoting, a kidnapping and torture

house. Some people have had to seek professional psychiatric help. and medical care for extensive injuries. Jeez. I know. Sounds amazing. It's good PR, but that's about all it is. But they can write,

it just goes to show you they can write whatever they want. And what they're doing is they're just taking their own thoughts based upon movies that are five, six, seven years old that I made back in San Diego. They're not basing anything upon the reality of what it really is. And in fact, every show, before every show, I called the police. I let them know what I'm doing. I volunteer for them to come down and watch the show anytime they want to.

Law enforcement, the district attorney, anybody can come here unannounced, anytime they want to with cameras in hand, film everything they want. But no one ever does. So no one's ever taken me up on my offer to actually see what I do. Instead, they do things like the petition. All right. So if you wouldn't mind hanging on just a couple more minutes, I want to talk to you about how you design these things, you know, some of the weirder things that you've had to do

to freak people out and get them to not win the 20 grand. Also, the four-hour waiver process, what that's all about when we come back. So we have Russ McCamey on. He is the owner of McCamey Manor. Macamy Manor.com, you might have seen an episode on Netflix of Dark Tourist that is really quite frightening. And you'll see, you know, you'll see military guys go through and they won't make it an hour with Russ. And they're tough guys. It is, it's truly a frightening haunted house, if you will.

He's on with us now. You know, is water, waterboarding is considered. torture, right? Right, right. Actual real waterboarding is torture, correct. You do a form of waterboarding, though, don't you? Well, I mean, there is a lot of water

at the haunt. It is a, it is a water ride, for sure. Water ride. So it's like going to the water park, it's all. And water is a great way to motivate people. Now, we

have, we have, we've done, waterboarding here at the studio, Pat and I waterboarded stew. With insure. Yeah, we used insure. But it was too chocolatey. He couldn't handle it. He couldn't handle it. He thought he thought he could handle it with the chocolate

opposed to water, but it was just too chocolatey for him. We have a guy on staff who is trained in enhanced interrogation techniques and he said, A, that when I told

him you were on this morning, he said, oh, I'd never go because you're never going to win. You can't. There's no way to win. Everyone breaks. True? Right. Yeah. True. Absolutely. He says he knows because he will neither confirm nor deny. But I, I know some, you remember the hairy back guy from Al-Qaeda that we got years and years ago? Sheikh Mohammed. Yeah. He was at least around the area when they were talking to that guy. And I'd like to send him with a bag of dog food just because I'm a good employer. And put him through your course to see how long he lasts.

Sure. We can do that. All right. Absolutely. All right. Now, let me ask you this, Russ. you've had really tough guys. What is the,

what's the shortest amount of time somebody has lasted in the manner who was a tough guy or thought he was a tough guy? Oh, that's easy. I'd say half the people quit during the contract, so they don't even get inside the manner. So these rough and tumble guys, once they read what's coming down, they'll hike for them, And they're like, no, I don't think so.

I'm done. Really? Okay, so is that part of it, is that part of it is the release form? Is that part of the psychological workup? Absolutely. And that's also where I do all the hypnosis, too, because I'm not so good that I can hypnotize somebody in five seconds like some people can. I need several hours with them. I need to really get inside their noggin.

I need to do all the repetitive words. I need to do all the tricks that it takes. hypnotize somebody, I need that time. So I'm not so good that I can just click my fingers and you're hypnotized. So time is important. Time is on my side. And that's why, that's why when you first get there in the morning, you're there at, you know, like 10 a.m. and you're there until sunset. And then when the sun goes down, the sun begins. So this is also wearing, this is also wearing people down. So by the time they hit the manner, you've already worn them out. Absolutely, because we do a lot of physical activities during the daytime. I call it kind of kind of a mini boot camp. And this way,

this way it's important. I need to know what type of physical activities and they can do what they can't do. So I'll have them hold their breath underwater, you know, in a nice way, not in a violent way, but I'll just say, well, how long can you hold your breath? Because these are things I need to know because there is breath holding inside, you know, whether it be dirt or whether it be water you're going to deal with. I need to know these things. So during the daytime portions, that's when I'm finding out what their limitations are. And then I'll work around that because the last thing we want to do is have anyone get hurt.

So I really need to know where they stand physically before they roll inside the real show. What is the most common fear and what is the, What is the fear that you thought, wow, I'm going to have to work on that one for a minute? Most common fear is definitely water. Water is a great equalizer, for sure. And because there's so much of it being used, it's always on you. You're either cold or, but, you know, if it's hot outside, you're glad the water is on you. But you're either getting cold or you're just wet and comfortable.

It's not always in your face, but you're always wet. And it just drains you. It drained your body after hours and hours of having a big heavy onesie on. Because everybody has to wear these crazy onesies, like a bunny rabbit or a cow or something. You got to be something silly when you're inside the haunt. It just looks so goofy on film. But there's also a reason why you do it because it weighs you down. You get those big old suits all full of water, and it's hard to move.

It's just another means of tiring you out. Absolutely. And what is the, have you met with anybody that you thought, this one's going to be hard to crack or this person's fear is unusual? I did. A few weeks ago, we had a war veteran who lost both his legs, a double amputee. And I thought, how in the world am I going to put this guy through the show? but he is a really motivated young man who's a rock climber one of those really athletic guys you know he weighs 170 pounds follow his rock but he's got no legs and i thought should i even do this i thought you know what he's so motivated and it's so inspirational that i was like i couldn't

say no to him and this guy just kicked it this guy was great he did everything we needed him to do I didn't need to dumb down the show whatsoever. Eventually, I think, the water and just fatigue is what got to him. But he held in there just as long as the big rough tough guys with all their extremities. It was incredible. I mean, really inspirational. I've never seen anything like it. Men break slower than women?

No, no. Women are much stronger. Oh, no. Because it's mainly psychological, right? right? Absolutely. Yeah, the women have a much, have a much higher tolerance to my little shenanigans than the guys do. Why is that? They don't fall for it. Why is that? I just think women are tougher overall, right? We all, we all have women in our lives, and they're just tough. Come on, we have to admit, guys, women are tougher than we are. We know that. So for being honest with

with ourselves. They go through some really amazing ordeals in their life and things that a lot of guys would say, no, I don't think so. And I think that there's a lot. I think there's something to girls. I've had girls. I've had boys at raising them. Girls are mean.

Girls are mean to each other when they're in, you know, their teen years. They go through some really nasty things in, uh, in, school years. Yeah, I agree. And they're very competitive. I mean, they're much more competitive than the guys are. The guys are like, hey, they're fun. But the women are like, no, this is serious, Russ.

Bring on. Bring on, Russ. We're doing this right now. And do you use animals? I do. Lots of spiders and snakes and scorpions and rats. And rats? A lot of bugs.

Yeah, rats. But they're field mice. but field mice. Field mice are worse because they're smaller, they're quicker, and they love to get beside your clothes. Oh.

So as you're, you know, and then they stay in there. And so now you're walking, you're walking around the rest of the day with field mice and your little outfit. Oh. Yeah,

yeah, that's what I say. Oh, my gosh. Could you make it through, do you think? Could you make it through your own show? Yeah, because I know how it works.

Yeah. But if I didn't know how, I didn't know how it, I didn't know about work, then no. No. So no one's going to make it through. You know, just be really clear with that. And that's why when people come here, they need to come here for the right reason

because they want to push themselves and they're coming here just because it's entertainment. And it really is fun. And it doesn't sound fun. It doesn't. You know what it sounds fun for, you know, honestly, if you watch like Mission Impossible and you see, and, you know, I don't know. I don't imagine there are very many people, if any people. like this where, you know, he's rock climbing without any rope or anything, and he gets his

thrills doing that because his life is so crazy. If those people really exist, I could see those people saying, oh, I want to go through this. They're out there. I mean, they fly from all around the world to take on this little challenge. It's amazing. It's not a local thing. The locals don't go. The locals are smartened up like, no way, I'm not doing that. But all these folks that flying from around the world, you know, cross the pond. It's amazing. They spend all this money to get

here. They spend their vacation time to get here. So I kind of, I'm hard-pressed. I have to give them a good show because this means a lot to them. Do they sell the dog food at the airport? Because that's what I would do. I would set up a little dog food stand there at the airport.

It's your dog food here. Russ has there Has there ever been a person you thought was going to make it that you thought, okay, maybe they can go the distance? Never? No. No. Never.

How many people do you turn away? Oh, my gosh. I turn away thousands and thousands because the waiting list is I can't even comprehend what it is anymore. In fact, it's so big right now, we have to go to a lotto to win a ticket here, especially since all this craziness. That's one thing that these petition people don't get. All they did was just gain more attention to the manner and made it more popular.

I just hope that nothing crazy does go on because, you know, it is life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. And this is just a hobby. It's like saying, you know, Glenn, you like flying remote control airplanes. Well, you're no longer allowed to do that, Glenn, because we don't like what you're doing. And it's the same thing. Nobody is getting hurt. It's not what the petition says whatsoever. So it is frustrating because I have people coming out of the woodwork.

You know, this weekend I have an inspector coming out now. They have to inspect for fire safety now. And there's no fire safety codes. But they're just doing whatever they can do to kind of harass at this point in time. So it is kind of frustrating. You only charge dog food for doing this. This is something that, you know, you're doing it part-time. Are you really actually a wedding singer as your full-time job?

I well kind of as a part-time gig yeah like if you there's a movie on Netflix called haunters the art of the scare that's a really good movie that's a feature documentary and it stars stars me and there's also the dark tourist one but but haunters is a feature film and it's got me doing the wedding stuff out there yeah if you if you go to dj party dot org you'll see me in all my glory out there entertaining folks and stuff. So how scary can I be? I'm a wedding singer. Come on now. It's bizarre. It's just bizarre. Russ, it's really good talking to you and best of luck. The best of the Glenn Beck program. Hey, it's Glenn and you're listening to the Glenn Beck program. If you like what you're hearing on this show, make sure you check out Pat Gray Unleashed. It's

available wherever you download your favorite podcasts. Mr. Bill O'Reilly from Bill O'Reilly. com and the author of the new book, a new book called The United States of America, according to Trump. Welcome, Bill O'Reilly. I want to start with this. You've done an updated message of the day, which is 10 ways the impeachment process is hurting every single American. Let's start there. All right. It's the United States of Trump.

I know it's a complicated thing. It is. I didn't read it. I haven't seen it. You read it and referred with Pat, and Pat will tell you. You see, if I want your listeners to know before we get into the heavy-duty stuff, if I were advertising on Beck, the United States of Trump, paying him money, he would be, he would know the title.

And he could tell you the title backward. Nope. Okay? He'd be sitting in the book. You're the one that still wrote the book? Wait, you're the one who still wrote the book? I wrote the United States of Trump every word. But I mean, in this scenario where I'm doing advertising, you're paying me to do it and you are the author of the book. Yes.

And I am telling everyone that you would not boot the title of the book if you were being paid. You are wrong, Mr. O'Reilly. But let's get to the 10 things on how the impeachment is actually hurting the average American. Yes. there's nothing good about this, number one. And if you see other people celebrating impeachment, you need to just pull them aside and say, do you understand that we all are in this together in this country,

that we have to have a functioning federal government trying to solve vexing problems, that we must have a robust economy to support 330 million people, most of whom want to improve themselves, do you understand that destroying the office of the presidency, not just the president, but the office of it is counterproductive to freedom? Do you understand any of that? And you'll get silence because this isn't the way impeachment is being presented. This is awful.

You know, I said earlier this week, Bill, that this impeachment, the all of the, all, of the so-called evidence that they're presenting on TV is not evidence. And this is really reminiscent of the glove in O.J. Simpson's case. African-Americans wanted O.J. Simpson to be innocent. So it would be a win for them because of history of, you know, blacks getting crushed by the system. They wanted this guy to beat the system. And so the glove was, it didn't have really anything to do with the evidence. They had blood stains and drops in his car.

They had DNA evidence, everything else. But the glove gave them permission to say, yep, he's innocent. And the same thing. Certainly a jury fought that. Right. But the same thing is happening here with this. This phone call is giving permission to people who want Donald Trump to be out. It's giving them an easy way of, even though it's not based on any fact of, yep, we win.

He's out. Sure. That's what it's all about, the destruction of Donald Trump. And whether it's Russian collusion or impeachment or whatever they'll come up with next, abuse of power, it is a game now. It's a game. All right. So someone's going to have actual board game, like Monopoly, and then you roll a dice, and then you'll stop on a square, and the square will say, Trump did this. It's ridiculous. Now, I'm not in the business of defending Donald Trump, even though I wrote a book on him, a fair book. It's not a pro-Trump book. By the way, if you're looking for a great book to read, Bill wrote that book called The Country, according to the president.

Yeah. Okay. The Little Red Book by Mousa. There you go. All right. So I'm in the business of trying. to improve America. And I've always been in that business, and that's why I'm successful.

So whether it's books or commentary or radio, whatever it may be. And I'm seeing this as, number one, a division in the country now based on hatred of one individual. Now, there is a system attached to the individual. I understand that. But when you've got a guy like Adam Schiff, by the way, I am counting my trick-a-treats. I went as Adam Schiff last night, and it was not easy getting a shirt three sizes too big.

Not easy. Right. I did it. Yeah, good for you. I scared every urchin. Urchins were screaming. That is crazy. So did you see the news that we know, we think we know who the whistleblower is now?

I reported last night. We know. Yeah. It's a 33-year-old Yale guy who's a hate Trump guy who worked in the deep state and still. is in Langley, Virginia, who was associated with Biden and with other people and has two best friends working for Adam Schiff. And so it's a total con. I haven't heard anything about him for three weeks.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting, Bill, is he is connected with Chalupa, who was a main figure on our chalkboard. And we did the chalkboard about a month ago. five, I think it was five days later is when they said, yeah, we're, don't worry about that. We've got another whistleblower. And as we find out now, this guy is connected directly to the storyline of our chalkboard. He is evidence that it's true.

If this were a criminal case, we'd have been thrown out. Yeah, easy. Well, we'd have been thrown out. Everything's gone because the original complaint and is a fraud. So it's gun What does it say to you yesterday Not a single Republican voted for this Big time for a win for Trump

And the reason is That there are senators Like Romney and Murkowski Who hate Trump, hate them And would vote to remove Now they can't Because if they do They'll be blackballed by their own party

And That would make me happier Yeah, okay I mean look politics is politics But I was surprised. I thought there would be a couple of Republican congressmen to vote for the inquiry. Remember, this was a vote to continue the inquiry, to continue compiling evidence of a possible misdemeanor and high crime. Not one person.

Not one witness is said that it is a crime. Not one. So that is emboldened Donald Trump. So let me give you some insight in focus. As you know, I know him pretty well. I'm very good sources. So there was a big meeting after the vote in the White House. And why I shouldn't say big?

Because there aren't a lot of advisors in there. And he just doesn't trust Mulvaney. Mulvaney is going to be gone and, you know, a matter of a very short time. Mulvaney's out. So there's a meeting about five or six people who trusts. And they basically sat around and they said, look, now let's let this go forward, because we have Nunez, and this is a big key that every American should know. Nunez is stronger than Schiff.

So Nunez is the minority guy on the House Intel Committee, all right? Devin Nunez from California. He's stronger than Schiff. So it's him and Schiff that will direct the questioning, Nunez and Schiff. And then in the summaries and the leaking to the press, it's Nunez and Schiff. Nunez will be on Fox News every second of every day. All right. And so they believe that Nunez is going to kick shifts butt all over the place.

And this is going to directly lead to the re-election of Donald Trump. So they're happy. This is the first time that the president's been relieved. I mean, last time we talked last week, I said I was worried about him personally because it was taking some emotional toll on him. Now he's almost buoyant. in the sense that he believes this whole thing has turned after yesterday's vote. I would agree. I think this week was a turning point in this,

and I think it's going to get worse and worse for the Democrats. With one exception, what do you think is going to happen with John Bolton? Very interesting. Yeah, they keep holding him out like, oh, he's going to be the death knell for Brownfront. I don't know the ambassador. that, well, I never used him on the O'Reilly Factor, not once. And the reason I didn't use him, a very smart guy. Very smart.

Was because he, I knew what he was going to say. I knew it. I mean, it was, there was never a surprise, never a nuance. He was, but he wasn't a, he was not a guy who was parroting a lot of other people. I mean, hard right view of foreign policy. Correct. All right. And I didn't use any hard left people either. I never did. So here's the dilemma for John Bolton.

Bolton, you can't assume that he has any regard for Donald Trump. We can't assume that. I mean, he doesn't like him because it didn't end well in the White House for him. But if he goes in and crushes Trump, and he could, he could, he's dangerous, in a sense that he knows a lot of of things. He will alienate himself from his entire ideological structure. He will be a pariah in this country. I think he's on that road already. But he knows that. There's not going to be anywhere for him to speak, speaking engagements, no book audience for him, no comeback on Fox News, none of that. So he cuts himself off. Now, the Trump administration has anticipated the worst. They don't know. Nobody knows what Bolton's going to say. So the counter to Bolton is Pompeo. And you saw that this week as well. Pompeo came out. So look, I was on the call. And we didn't deviate out from what our policy for the Trump administration is. So they'll put Pompeo up against. Bolter. And Pompeo's strong. Remember, X-CIA chief. All right. He's strong.

So does this boil down, Bill, really, to an extreme disagreement in the policy of the State Department and the State Department just saying, we don't work for Donald Trump, even though they do, we don't work for Donald Trump. And Donald Trump's not going to get involved. And the State Department engaging in some really nasty stuff over in the Ukraine? Well, the State Department now is very sympathetical with President Trump. I mean, Chris Pompeo is a Secretary of State. They're buds. Yeah, no, I mean those long-term players, for instance, the whistleblower.

But they don't have any access other than leaking whatever. There are two people that Donald Trump deals with every day. vice president pens and pompeo those are the only two and they're both very loyal to him and as long as they stay there as long as he has them he can use them to go out and and negate a bolt now as for your question about the state department and the justice department and everybody else they all hate trump they hated him from day one all right and that's why you saw the whistleblower yes this guy was was working for to undermine Trump from the very beginning.

Oh, he's the guy who said that Putin and Trump, you know, Putin told Donald Trump to fire Comey. He's the guy who started all of that. This guy is an activist. He's an activist. Very bad. Very bad. But Schiff is in trouble because he went to Schiff because his two best friends work for Schiff. I mean, he's really bad. This is the best of the Glenn Beck program.

Hey, it's Glenn. and if you like what you hear on the program, you should check out Pat Gray Unleashed. His podcast is available wherever you download your favorite podcast. Hi, it's Glenn. If you're a subscriber to the podcast, can you do his favor and rate us on iTunes? If you're not a subscriber, become one today

and listen on your own time. You can subscribe on iTunes. Thanks. When you say, at least 15 years ago, hey, can you name a really horrible, divisive group? You could probably say, yeah, Westboro Baptist Church. Oh, yeah. But now we are all kind of, we're kind of turning into that.

We see that everywhere now. We see people screaming these things at each other. America has become an online version in many cases of the Westboro Baptist Church, not necessarily screaming the same things, but being just as vile and mean and awful. Well, Megan Phelps, she's a writer and an activist and a former member of the Phelps family, member of the Westboro Baptist Church. And she joins us now. She has a new book called Unfollow. Welcome, Megan.

How are you? I am wonderful. What about you? I'm good. Good to have you on the program again. First of all, can I ask you, you kept the name Phelps. you're Megan Phelps Roper. And Phelps is one of those words, you know, like we say, your name is mud around here.

That's because the guy who is helping John Wilkes Booth, his name was mud. The doctor was mud. Phelps is kind of one of those names. Why'd you keep it? Because I wanted to reform it. You know, my name, Megan Phelps Roper for a very long time, it meant, as my family would say, God hates fags. And I didn't want it to mean that anymore. I wanted to change. I wanted to take it back.

And, you know, my husband recently, we've been talking about, you know, we want to start a nonprofit at some point. And he had the idea of calling it the Westboro Foundation. Because I want people when they hear Westboro to not think of people who celebrate tragedies and death, but people who are there when tragedies happen to help people who are suffering. I mean, in some ways, it's what Chip and Joanna did for Waco, Texas. but it was, I mean, that wasn't, that wasn't personally them. Right. And you have a, I mean, you were there on the front lines.

Tell me, tell the audience, I know who you were, but tell the audience who you were and how you changed. So Westboro Baptist Church was started by my grandfather, and it's almost entirely my extended family. So my mother was the de facto spokesperson for a very long time, and I was right there. I grew up right at her elbow. I'm the third of 11 children. I'm her oldest daughter. So she called me her right hand, and I was right there in the middle of it. I was a hardcore believer, a zealous believer in everything that Westboro taught,

and I defended them in the media. I was the one who took our message to social media initially and helped with all of the logistical work, you know, orchestrating the protests. So I was not, you know, as I put it, it. I said I was all in. That's how I felt. And then the... Before you change, before you talk about how you changed, was there ever any discussion like,

hey guys, I don't think this is working. This approach is not working. Was there ever any discussion like that? No, because for Westboro, you know, they do not use conversion numbers as a metric of their success. They don't believe that, you know, changing hearts and minds is in their power because they believe in predestination. So only God can change someone's heart. And so we basically saw our, you know, we measured our success as the amount of publicity that we were getting.

Because all we were trying to do was publish this message that we thought was the Word of God. So from that perspective, we were very successful. We were all, I mean, you know, pop culture phenomena, you know, true blood, that, you know, really popular series on HBO, the opening credits included, you know, God hates fangs, you know. which is part of our, you know, just a play on our God hates gays message. But so it's, you know, for them, they just, that's, they weren't trying to change people's minds. And that's why they, to change, the idea of changing tactics didn't even occur to them. And when people would insist that they should, that it was biblical for them to change tactics, for us to change tactics, we basically just dismiss them out of hand.

So, Megan, when, when, when you, are away from this now and your eyes have been opened and you know what you were part of and your family is a part of and you know what's what's true and what's not how difficult is it for you to look at our society today and to see what people are doing online on air everything and and not just cry out, you fools, what are you doing? Well, I can't say you fools because I was exactly where so many people are now. I know how seductive that way of seeing things is, you know, the appeal of absolute certainty. You know, my grandfather used to say that it was, there was something wonderfully liberating in the idea that in the notion, the knowledge, that you are 100% right.

And he believed that. He believed that we were 100% right with no possibility of error because we, again, we had the Word of God. And so when I see this, you know, this spirit kind of the same spirit taking over, you know, the Westboroization of politics in American culture generally, I know I know why people are drawn to it. And I understand the group dynamics that lead people to it. But I also know, you know, how incredibly destructive it is to see the world. that way and how ineffective it is to try to change hearts and minds to

come to collective to compromise how difficult that is to do when you have completely demonized anyone who doesn't agree with you on everything anyone who steps outside of the party line on any notion it's it's

it's not good it's it's interesting because I wrote in one of my books I think it was my last one where I said the only thing I am now certain of is that I'm not certain of anything. It is our certainty that is, is dividing us. And it,

it feels, it feels different than what you went through because you see and you claim what's happening over here is evil. And, and I know the difference between good and evil. And this is just,

this movement is, evil, but that's what you guys thought. Yeah, and that's the thing. If you are only looking at things from your perspective, you know, you're, you are looking at current events in light of your own experiences. And if you cut yourself off from trying to understand why other people have come to different conclusions, if you just attribute it to, you know, this person is evil, they are ill-intentioned, you are immediately cutting yourself off from really understanding that person and what

has let them to those conclusions. Right. And it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you are going to change your point of view or, uh, or, uh, that you're not necessarily on the right track,

but you don't understand that you are limiting, um, yourself by not listening to how other people got there or viewed it, because they are going to teach you something. Uh, and if you close yourself off to, that. You end up alone, right? Yeah, absolutely. And there, you know, there is this instinct that I think is very human. You know, when we encounter people that we believe are doing and believing

destructive things, the instinct that we have is to isolate ourselves from them. You know, we don't want to endorse them. We don't want to have any part with what they're involved in. And again, I think that's a very human response. You know, you're trying to shame them into changing. The problem is that when the divide is as great as it is now in so many different spheres, I was talking to an anthropologist last year, and she explained the feeling of shame as, you know, the feeling that we get when we know that we have violated the norms of our community. And so, you know, for me, Westboro was my community, and I didn't have any community outside of that. I felt completely alienated from the rest of the world.

It was this very us-them mentality. And so when other people, outsiders, attempted to shame me, I felt pride. I was happy that they thought I was wrong because I thought they were evil. So clearly, it just reinforces your sense of righteous. What's the difference between this and moral relativity? I think you're, I don't believe that you have to, like, have no opinions about things. Like, I don't think that you have to say, well, I can't, when you said certainty, is the root of this. For me, I totally agree. This toxic sense of certainty in your own righteousness.

It's not that you don't have opinions or that you don't have strong values and strong beliefs. It's that you hold them a bit more loosely because you understand that there is information and experiences outside of your own, which are necessarily limited, that can and should change the way you see things. We have to be willing to listen because, not because we are trying to, you know, say that, okay, white supremacy is okay, or whatever the specific issue is, it's that what is in this that I can learn from? And how can we build a bridge from where they are to where I am? So show us how we need to change our behavior. You know, your book is called Unfollow, and you're not necessarily saying disengage from social media.

you because at least I don't think because that's that's what that's what changed you was somebody using social media in the right way so what's the right way to approach this or another way yeah so I on I gave a TED talk a couple of years ago about this this was I think the last time I was on that it was basically detailing these strategies that that people used with me so the first was to don't assume bad intent because, again, you need to understand what is actually motivating this person. I think very few people are actually deliberately trying to do things that they know are evil or wrong.

They have somehow become convinced that this is the right way. And so you need to understand where they're coming from if you're going to actually reach them. The second is to ask questions, partly, again, to help you understand where they are, where they're coming from, but also partly as a signal to them that they're being heard. And so, you know, there's this reciprocal thing that happens where, you know, somebody, you ask them questions and they go through their whole position, they explain it all to you. And then they get to the end and there's this natural, you know, sense of reciprocation often where they want to know what you think. Where are you coming from?

And how is. And it's not asking questions. It's asking honest questions. It's asking questions of, I want to know, not questions that will get them to change their mind. Because I'm going to have a, I know the answer to this one. Right. Yes. Yeah.

Okay. And then the third is to stay calm, which is, you know, as you see in conversations on social media, on television, all over the place, it's really difficult, it seems like right now, to be able to stay calm in these discussions because we, these are conversations about deeply held values and disagreements that we cannot fathom how somebody has come to a different place. And so if we can be very intentional and deliberate about keeping, you know, keeping the hostility level as low as possible, trying to acknowledge, you know, that the other person is coming from a place of genuine disagreement and to be able to tolerate that. Like, this is, you know, embodying the value of tolerance. I think it's really important. So that's the third step.

And then the fourth is to make your argument. You know, and again, this is one of those things that sounds very obvious. But when we have these deeply held values, there is this, you know, this sense that anybody that is a decent person would have already come to the same conclusions that I have. And so we end up not actually articulating the defenses and the argument for our position. So we actually need to do that. And then, you know, I think I mentioned this last time, too, the fifth point that I would say that was not in my TED talk because I ran out of time, but it would be to be patient because people don't change these kinds of deeply held values overnight, like in a moment.

Like even though I can look back in my own experience to how my mind changed over time, I can point to several moments. where I absolutely became aware that there was a contradiction in what I believed. And what it caused me to do was kind of to shut down momentarily, right? And that's what happens to human beings. As we, you know, this cognitive dissonance, like to finally come to the place where we understand, wow, maybe there is something wrong with my position. Maybe I need to reconsider this. And if you push that, you know, if you try to use that as a gotcha moment,

that people react very negatively to that. It pushes us. Exactly. It pushes you deeper into your position. Megan, I think you're a remarkable, remarkable woman. And your message is so powerful and right on the money and right for this time. I urge everybody in the audience to read this and share this with people. What she lays out is, look, what we're doing isn't working. We have to change tactics. and I think she has a remarkable message.

The name of the book is Unfollow, Megan Phelps Roper. Unfollow. It's available wherever you buy books currently. Thank you so much, Megan. God bless. Thank you, thank you. You bet. The Blaze Radio Network.

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