The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 161 | How Christianity Was INFILTRATED by Woke Politics | Voddie Baucham | The Glenn Beck Podcast

Episode Date: October 29, 2022

What does the future hold for Christianity? Is it actually in decline, or is the cultural depravity that’s entered even our churches just another trial for Christians? While these are troubling times, Pastor Voddie Baucham believes they should also be “hopeful times.” He joins Glenn to break down how we got here, where we’re heading, and what the Church must do next. Voddie and Glenn dive into how woke politics infiltrated Christianity and debunk the media’s fearmongering about “Christian nationalism.” Voddie also describes the “brutal attacks” his family faced after he was nominated to be president of the Southern Baptist Convention, reveals his top three most important books for these times, and advises Christians on how to peacefully stand up for their faith against a government that’s hostile to it. SPONSORS: If you're one of the millions of Americans who suffer every day from pain, there is hope, and it comes in the form of Relief Factor. If you want a drug-free and natural way to get your life back, go to https://relieffactor.com Almost one out of every five pregnancies in this country is aborted — over 63 million babies since the beginning of Roe v. Wade. Now after Roe, blue states are gearing up to become the abortion mills of the country. Will you help rescue babies’ lives? To donate, dial #250 and say the keyword “BABY,” or go to https://Preborn.com/GLENN Covenant Eyes wants to help equip parents and grandparents with resources that will help you protect your families. And it wants to give you a free parenting e-book, called "Connected," which explores how a strong family connection can protect children and teens from the dangers of hidden pornography use. You can get your free copy of "Connected" by texting “Glenn” to 66866. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, their hatred is nothing new. The elites have always hated, despised really Christianity. All through the Gospels, Jesus, Jesus narrowly escapes being lynched as the Pharisees, the elites, chased him. He told them, he didn't come to call the righteous. He came to call the sinners, the blind, the disabled, the poor, the possessed. Now, anyone who actually hates Christianity actually, really, I think hates them as well, the blind, the disabled. the poor and the oppressed. They seem to enslave them.

Give them. Anyway, if you want proof, look at how they attack anyone who disagrees with the elites. Chance of Black Lives Matter. Well, that evaporates. Once a black person tells the world that they're a Republican, right? Believe all women, unless they're conservative.

Everything they claim, everything they say, oh, we believe. even this so much is a distraction so that you won't notice what they're really up to. But as Paul writes in Romans, professing to be wise, they became fools. Doesn't it seem like our experts are foolish right now? Today's guest knows what they're really up to. He's a former pastor. He is a author, a professor, and current dean of theology at African Christian University in Zambia.

I've been waiting to meet this guy for a couple of years now. he happens to be in the States for a few days and he stopped in. He's a spiritual man, a community leader, an academic, a Bible expert, and a man who strives to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace, although he carries a pretty big stick as well. He's written books and articles detailing the complicated realities of a world that is increasingly dangerous for Christians. Today on the Glenn Beck podcast, I am excited to introduce you to Dr. Vody Bachman Jr.

Before we get to Vody, I want to talk to you a little bit about Relief Factor. There is a giant pain in my that I can't seem to get rid of. And even Relief Factor doesn't help. I'm thinking November 8th might help a lot. But if that's not the pain you're experiencing and you have pain every day and you just can't, tried everything. Please, would you do me a favor and try relief factor? I hate to paint this into such a corner of being, you know, your last attempt for anything.

But those are the testimonials I see, the people who take the time to write because it's been a miracle in their life. It's been a miracle in my life. I'm out of pain. I can use my hands. It's unbelievable for me. But this is also something that, you know, instead of ibuprofen or Tylenol, this relief factor, is great. Not a drug.

Developed by doctors. It's all natural. You can get the three-week quick start to try for only 1995. And 70% of the people who try it, go on to order more. If you want a drug-free and natural way to get your life back, go to relieffactor.com. Relieffactor.com. I find myself thinking thoughts I've never thought before. Yeah.

And wondering. Where are we in time? Where are we as a people, as a nation? You know, I tell you one thing, we're in trouble. I got that. I know that. I know that we're in trouble. I know that there are things happening in the midst of our society that, you know, if you look at Romans chapter 1, or if you look at history, these are the kind of things that happen toward the end.

of a society's lifespan, if you will. And I think unless things change dramatically that what we're going to see is going to be catastrophic. I mean, I think on the other hand

that there are some unique aspects of American culture that kind of give us a reprieve. I think, you know, our federal system, the fact that there are 50 states. Yeah. The fact, and I think COVID showed us that, right?

Mm-hmm. There wasn't, there wasn't one response to COVID in America, right? Yeah. Not everybody had the same experience. I think, you know, we, we see an end to Roe v. Wade, and now what happens, things go to the states, and these different states look very different in their response. So I think because of that, you know. But that doesn't give us a, I, I'm, I will be really true.

heartened that it's not a delay tactic. Some things like that, nice delays. Buy us more time. But until we, I mean, I hate to sound like a preacher, but until we recognize crap, we have gone way astray, way astray. I can't hear sheep. There's no sheep for miles around. We've really gone astray.

Yeah, yeah. And we then ask for forgiveness. Yeah. His protection is, it has to come off of us. Yeah. Looking at the things that are happening in our society. But Glenn, I would say it already has. I would say that's why we're seeing what we're seeing.

Yeah. But I don't think we're, I'm not sure if he's fully withdrawn. Yeah. We're at the beginning, I think. Yeah, this is judgment. We're at the beginning of that. Yeah. This is judgment.

We're experiencing judgment. And when you experience judgment, you're right. The response is to repent. And, you know, I'm afraid that we're not seeing much of that. We're not seeing any humility. We're not seeing humility. We're not seeing repentance. We're not seeing brokenness.

We will. Yeah. I think of you ought to, you will. Oh, you will. I was. Well, let me, let me go here. I feel like we're battling evil. We are not, I keep saying on the air,

it's not Republicans versus Democrats. It's not. It is elites versus the people, but it's not really even that. It is evil against good. Can you give, can you flesh that out? Yeah, I mean, I think the Apostle Paul in second reading the year's chapter 10,

is as though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. And I think it's important for us to keep that in mind. that that we are battling. What he talks about in Ephesians chapter two is the Prince of the Power of the Air, right? That spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

This is a spiritual battle. It's always been a spiritual battle. And I think that we're seeing that more clearly. You know, go back to Roe v. Wade. I talked about, you know, that earlier. What's interesting about that is, you know, all of us, sudden, when that happened, the gloves came off. Oh, yeah. You know? And people were just essentially

saying, I can't believe we're not going to be allowed to kill babies anymore. I know. You know? I know. I mean, no, I think it's been, in some ways, it's been a real blessing. Yeah. You know, if Donald Trump would have won again, I don't know if all of this would have been fully seen. You know what I mean? But now that things, now the things are progressing as quickly as they are, you're hearing things like, yeah, we should let the baby die if we wanted to abort. Yeah. Then if he's born alive, then he should die. Crazy things that we all knew that men can have a baby.

Yeah. That we know these things aren't true. That pedophilia is somehow okay. Because we're minor attracted persons. Right. Yeah. I mean, and I feel like saying, look, we all knew. We all knew 10 years ago.

That stuff's crazy. If I would have said it that you're going to be arguing for it, you would have called me insane. And now you're arguing, I didn't change. What happened to you? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's happening in many areas across. the board and unfortunately what happens is we get numb to it you know it's kind of like the the

frog in the kettle right yeah we get numb to it and for example we're not talking about same-sex marriage anymore right but i mean we were right but now you know because of all of these other things that i said i said on the air when we were debating same-sex marriage to me as a more of a rights person, I don't, what are you doing your life as your life? Do not force my church to do what you want. And I won't force your church to do what you want, you know what I mean, or what I want. But I said, this opens up the door. You can't say man and a woman and a woman and then not say man, woman, woman, woman, woman. Everything is going to change and you will see pedophil. You will start to be normalized and they said how dare you ever say that right right that no and then we say no

that's not what we're arguing yes yes that's you know that that whole slippery slope argument that's not what we're arguing for we're just arguing for this not that but the implications are clear and there was a case in new york recently um where i i think there were there was a polyamorous triad three guys right Three guys in the polyamorous triad. Yeah, you know the case. And the judge is essentially pointing to the dissent in Obergefeld and saying the dissent is right, right? When you get rid of the male female requirement, the numerosity requirement makes no sense. Yep.

So essentially, they're saying that slippery slope that you were arguing that we said was an overreaction. Yeah. It wasn't really an overreaction. Exactly right. And for a long time in this movement, people have been trying to get rid of age of consent laws. So we get rid of age of consent laws. We get rid of the numerosity requirement.

And all of a sudden, marriage means absolutely nothing. And the foundation of civilization, right? Is gone. Yeah. I mean, you know, when you look at, there's a lot of things you can look at and say, nah, that's evil. I can see how you get there or, you know, maybe not. But the things that are happening with children, that is the one thing that, you know,

Christ wasn't really a fire and brimstone kind of guy, but it went, when he came to harming his little ones. Better to have a millstone tied around your neck and be thrown into the deepest part of the sea. So how is it so many people are just duped? Well, but listen, okay, we talk about the whole idea of the millstone, but don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah, right? So we've done this before. We've come up to an issue that from a biblical perspective and from an historical perspective was something that was absolutely unthinkable,

right and and and and we cross that line and now you know as we sit here we're having a conversation about another line that we think should never even be approached let alone crossed but what history tells us is it's only a matter of time before we get to that one is it is it exciting to live at this time or is it what is it My father died and I thought, you know, he was too young to serve in World War II. He tried to join the Marines in Korea, but he had flat feet so he couldn't go. You know, civil rights thing, but he lived up in Seattle and, you know, he really didn't have any time where he was pushed up against the wall by society or anything, you know. And I don't know if you can ever really truly be who you are.

meant to be until there's a force that is pushing against you. Yeah. So is it a good thing to live now? You know, it is. First of all, you know, if we believe in a sovereign God and if we believe in its providence, then we're living exactly when and where we're supposed to be living. So that's number one. And secondly, I agree with you. It's not until we face pressure. and opposition that we actually see what we really believe and what we're really made of. And so, you know, these are frightening times. Terrifying. But at the same time, they ought to be hope-filled times for those of those who live with that kind of hope.

I can't remember his name. Do you remember the guy? He went blind. He was a minister. He was in one of the concentration camps. and he was a pastor and he was happy and everybody in his barracks was happy and so they said you got to beat him down

and they put him underneath the barracks they didn't feed him he went blind but he was still singing in the end singing until they shot him in the head finally same thing with Bonhofer he thanked his executioner boy I really want to get there I don't know how to get there how do you get there

You know, only by God's grace. I don't think that's something that any of us is necessarily prepared for until the time comes. You know? And, you know, of course, we hope and pray that the time doesn't come. But God gives us grace for whatever he calls us to. I was reading in the New York Times this week that, that partial birth abortion doesn't exist. Yeah, it's apparently just a Republican talking point.

Who knew? Huh. Really? Mm-hmm. And saying that an abortion where they cut the baby's limbs off and stuff, that's just a pejorative. Oh, I thought it was a baby that you were cutting up. Look, life is life.

and I don't want to, I mean, unless it's a bug, I really don't want to take life. I don't. Especially human life. Kind of important things. Good safety tip. Preborn is a ministry that we have partnered with. They are the largest provider of free ultrasounds in the country. And they are also the direct competitor to Planned Parenthood. we would like to this year by the end of the year rescue 50,000 babies. When an expecting mom sees her child on an ultrasound, it's not a clump of cells anymore. It's a child.

When she hears the heartbeat, which by the way, doesn't exist, that's just a made up sound out of the machine. Oh my gosh, really? Are we there? 80% of moms are more likely to choose life. Preborn. They go beyond just the ultrasound. They provide maternity and baby clothes, diapers, car seats, counseling, books as the kids grow up.

I mean, it's really good. And it's all free of charge. Preborn has a passion to save unborn babies from abortion and women to come see Christ. So over the past 15 years, they've counseled over 450 women who are considering abortion. About 200,000 babies have been saved. 200,000 babies, will you help? us rescue a baby's life today donate dial pound 250 say the keyword baby that's pound 250 keyword baby preborn dot com slash glen it was at a restaurant um the other night and somebody

came in and just gave me the dirtiest look and i'm like okay yeah you are and then uh i looked around the restaurant and i saw all these young people all these people just out doing the thing, don't know how many of them even really know what's going on. Yeah. And I began to think how quickly they could be turned because there's not going to be anybody on the sidelines. You can't sit on the sidelines now, can you? No, neutrality is not an option.

Yeah. So you have the burden of Ezekiel on your shoulders. How do you wake people? How do we wake people up? Boy, you know, ultimately that's not something that we can even do. All we can do is be faithful and all we can do is continue to beat the drum, right? All we can do is continue to warn people. All we can do is, you know, continue to try to be the watchman on the wall.

I read something that you wrote and it was about not using the name, You know, not associating your good works with the name. And I thought of, unfortunately, me a lot of times. I try to look for language that is uniting. And that a lot, it has become sin, don't say that word. Sacrifice, don't say that word. Judgment, don't say it. I mean, you really are out.

as somebody who believes in God. You're out of language. How important it is, is it to use the language? Yeah. But here's what's interesting, Glenn. We feel like that or we've felt like that. But now all of a sudden, the other side has absolutely no problem using that language. They have no, I mean, you know, Gavin Newsom puts Bible verses.

on billboards advertising for people to come to California to slaughter their babies, right? When, you know, Madam Vice President wanted to encourage everybody to get the jab, she, she, no problem quoting scripture in order to do that, right? The president has no problem quoting scripture. And the press doesn't run around with their hair on fire if you do it on the left. Because I think they don't, I think they think that's just pandering. Yeah. They really do, they think, well, they're just saying that to get those lunatics.

They don't believe it. They don't believe it. Yeah, right. If somebody believes what they're actually saying, then it's a problem. Now all of a sudden they run around with their hair on fire. So, you know, I, I think it, I think it's important for us to be open and honest about what we believe and where we're coming from and unashamed about what we believe in where we're coming from, you know, especially when.

And I'm, you know, all this this talk about, you know, Christian nationalism, you know, this ooh, have you ever heard a preacher preach any of that nonsense? Well, actually, I have. Have you? Have you? Unfortunately, you know, I have. But is it prominent? But no, no.

But there are people who do that. There are people on the fringes who do that. But, you know, the problem with people. who are running away from it is that what these people are running away from is our foundations, right? They're trying to act like America has always been this secular republic that never acknowledged God. Never. Not true. Right? And the danger in that is we are the freest, most prosperous, most tolerant, right? Yeah.

That's who we've been since our founding because of the foundations upon which we're built, right? This is the place where, you know, Jews and Catholic, Mormon, even, I mean, everybody, right? This is the place where people can have that kind of liberty. Now, you and I know who's been to other parts of the world. It's not like that. That does not exist. Where does it exist? In the Christian West, that's where it exists.

And so the great irony is that when we run away from that, we're running away from the very thing that has given us the freedoms that we enjoy. So let me ask you, is Christianity seems to be diminishing quickly. in the West. Yeah. The numbers are quickly diminishing. And in some ways, I wonder how much our churches are responsible. Some have made it so easy to be a Christian that you don't really have to question anything except other people.

You know what I mean? Or they've made it about money and success. And it's not about praise. principles. And I don't see, I mean, I don't like when preachers get into politics, but I'm not talking about politics. We are so far beyond politics. We are in basic bedrock principles. And they're afraid to do it. Yeah. Well, this is where I go back to the unique nature of the American landscape. And the fact that the fact that. the matter is most of the things that go by the name church are not.

Right. Right. But there's a remnant. And unfortunately, most of those people who are being faithful and who are being consistent are tucked away in places where you don't necessarily know their name. And as a result of that,

It sort of looks like everybody's, you know, sold the farm and everybody's, you know, gone astray. But doesn't that happen? Awakenings don't happen in the church usually. They happen outside of the church, or at least the big power structure of the church. Do they not? They start with individuals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're saying.

Yeah, outside of the power structure and start with individuals and start. And really, you're saying. you know, kind of go, go, you know, beyond the walls. Yeah. Sort of by definition. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, yeah, the interesting thing, though, is like, like right now, we need awakening inside

as much as, if not more than outside. You know, over these last couple of years, it's been shocking, um, to see the number of people who have been willing to embrace. race ideologies that are not just unbiblical but anti-biblical. Yeah. You know? It's changed. It used to be, you used to be able to say, well, I can see if you're really misguided, how

you think that way. Now it's like, no, this, you're not. This is antichrist stuff, not the antichrist, but this is anti-Christ. This is opposite of what the Bible would teach. So it's not like we've decayed and are kind of sloppy on it. No, no, no. We've decayed to a point to where there's a side standing up going, all of that is evil.

Good is evil and evil is good. Yeah. And I think part of that is because we were kind of lulled into it. I mean, think about movies and television and the portrayal of Christianity, right? if there's a positive portrayal of Christianity in the movies or on television, it's either somebody who's a political leftist, right? It's the minister or the priest who's out there fighting for social justice. Or it's the person who's running a soup kitchen, right?

or it's the person who's, you know, running an orphanage, or it's the only positive pictures of Christianity are those pictures that are social gospel pictures, right? And if anybody is, you know, in any way, you know, conservative or anything else, then those are the images of Christianity that are basically the Christian Taliban, you know, if you would, And I think in many instances, Christians decided, no, you know, we want to be thought well of. So we emphasized, you know, those social issues and social aspects. But Christ would have us do those things. So shouldn't those two sides be the same coin?

Yeah, but if you do those without the gospel. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. That's my point. Okay. Yeah. Is that those are the only things that we're seeing. Sure. And we see those things because of, you know, the sort of universal brotherhood of man sort of ideas, right? Nothing connected to Christ and the Gospels, right? Nothing connected to this idea of sin and redemption. Nothing create, you know, nothing that gets you to, you know, here's our. biblical worldview and this is our response because of our biblical worldview just this sort of there's the universal brotherhood of man there's a group of people out there who are good people and

they're good people because they do these sorts of social things correct right and the christians who join the ranks of these good people and do these good social things are good people not because they're christians but in spite of the fact that they are christians because they've joined this group over here that does these good things. And I think what has happened is there a lot of people who sort of bought into that. Yeah. And that's the face that they want to show. Because the new Christ is one of just do good things. Listen, just be good. The 11th commandment is thou shalt be nice and we don't believe the other 10. It is. Yeah. It is. Talk to me a little bit about the, you, you talked to a little bit about the church. You're a Southern Baptist.

Yes. You were, you almost became the head of the Southern Baptist. No, not quite, but you were, I don't think the votes were pretty close. And I don't, that's not to disparage the other man or anything. But what happened? What, why were you standing up and? Yeah, there's a couple of things that happened there. And first, I was asked to allow my name to be put forward as president of the Southern Maps Convention. And even before I had processed that, you know, agreed to it or whatever, the news kind of leaked. So the, you know, left-wing progressives within and without the Southern Maps Convention just went on the attack.

Oh, I bet they did. And it was, it was brutal. I mean, it really was. Attacks on me. Attacks on my family. It just, it was bad. And I hadn't even, you know, my hat wasn't in the ring, right? But just because it was rumored.

And then what happened is some of the powers that be, you know, went, you know, deep into the to the books and the bylaws. And, you know, they said, well, technically, you know, because this guy lives outside the country. And because he's a member of a church, it's outside the country, technically. He's not eligible to, he's not eligible. he's not eligible to even put his hat in the ring. And so I thought your hat was in the ring. I know. So what happened was, you know, a group of the brethren who had asked me to put my hat in the ring,

we basically said, okay, fine, you can't do that. But there's another position, right? President of the SBC Pastors Conference, which, again, there's a whole other story about, you know, why that would have been significant. And so myself and another brother, Tom Askell, Tom Haskell accepted a nomination as president of the convention. I accepted a nomination as president of the pastor's conference really to sort of run with him. Of course, we were in Anaheim and a little inside baseball here.

The further the convention meeting is away from the south, the more to the left. Yeah, of course. It tends to be. So, you know, we didn't have much of a shot going to Anaheim. But both of us were willing to do that because we feel like it was almost like a last-ditch effort. It's almost like if this thing doesn't turn around, kind of like what we were saying about, you know, America. If this thing doesn't turn around, we're in trouble. So we both allot ourselves to be subjected to that, you know, for those purposes.

Neither one of us ended up winning those races. What? Because your denomination is not alone. It is infiltrated. Somebody asked me today, how did it even get into the churches? Liberation theology, I'm guessing. Is that how at first? How did this perverse anti-Christian kind of message or anti-Christ sort of message?

get in. I think a number of things. And you're talking about, like the whole social justice and all this other stuff. I think for many Southern Baptists, let me say two things. Number one,

the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptist churches are not there. They're just not. I think though the, what's crazy is our government is there. The vast majority of Americans are not there. But that disconnect between the two is dangerous.

It's absolutely dangerous. But I think what led people to even entertain this is the subtlety, right? Social justice. I mean, if you don't know what that means and you're a Christian, you're like, well, yeah, right? Anti-racism. of course right um you know and so i can't tell how many people i've had racial justice yeah i've had so many conversations with that and say yeah yet the label sounds good just like the inflation reduction act sounds good that's not what it is yeah yeah inflation reduction act well what does it do

um not that yeah it causes more inflation Yeah. So I think for a lot of people, right, again, when you're talking about people who love the Lord and who love their fellow man, right? And they see people in pain, right? And despair and anguish. And people are saying, you know, there's this injustice out there. And when you be about social justice and racial justice and racial justice. and anti-racism and da-da-da-da-da-da. I think there is a tendency for folks to say, well, yes. You know? And it's not only until later, I was talking to somebody, I guess, the day before yesterday,

who was in Denton and a college student, and they were out, and, you know, there was a Black Lives Matter March. And so I think he was with his sister, or somebody and, you know, people were like, you know, Black Lives Matter and they're marching and this, that, and the other. And his sister's like, you want to join them? And he goes, yeah, I think we should, you know. And he said they marched for a little while. And a sudden they realized, you know, this might not be what we, this might not be what we thought it was. And I think that there are a lot of people

who, on a, you know, broader scale, had that experience. And I think they began to use the terminology. They began to perhaps even, you know, try to get involved. And then slowly but surely the masks came off. And they realized that this, this is not what we thought it was. And I think even more significantly than that, the premise was wrong. So people always, for me, when people start talking about, you know, racial justice and this justice, I say, okay, let's back up and tell me how you're defining injustice, right? And then when they say, well, we're defining injustice as, you know, disparate outcomes, right? We're not saying that there's, you know, nobody's saying, hey, there's a lunch counter

over there that's saying that people who look like this or belong there, they can't come to the lunch count, right? Because you and I both know if that's the case. then we posse up and we go we go we go right go with you they're not saying that they're no no no no no there there there there's these disparate outcomes right and these outcomes only exist because of the racism that's baked into the system and so we've got to go and deconstruct this and fix these disparate outcomes I call it chasing ghosts right yeah and and so you know that's so that's what I want to know you tell me what the injustice is And then I'll tell you whether or not I'm going to partner with you in order to correct that injustice.

Because what you're defining as injustice may not be injustice at all. And it often isn't. Two decades ago, somebody came up with the idea of covenant eyes. Because he faced the same questions many people face today. I have children. How can I keep them safe on the Internet? I mean, you get online and all of a sudden it's just everywhere. How do I guard my own heart and remain pure online?

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That's Glenn, G-L-E-N-N to 666866. most of these Marxist things are really the same, aren't they? They're just, they're all about tear you apart from your family, tear you apart from your own self-worth. Tear you apart from any kind of religious belief that teaches you that you are unique and special

and, you know, that winning isn't, that's not justice justice isn't found in in that stuff aren't they all pretty much based on just the destruction of the individual at the end of the day they're based on power right and it's ironic because you know what they do is they set up this paradigm and this paradigm says you know everything is about power dynamics. And there are these people who have power and they set up the system in order to maintain that power and they oppress people, you know, who don't have power. And then, of course, therefore, tear them down and give us power. Correct. Right. Because we'll, because we'll handle it the right. Right. Right. We won't be like them. And so essentially,

it's all about power. So you talked about, for example, you know, the family and the church. And And why are the family and the church, for example, enemies to the Marxist? Because. Challenge of power. Yes. Yes. If you have a family that is raising you in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, right, Ephesion 6.4, if you have a church that is proclaiming, you know, law and gospel and pointing you to faith and

and developing, you know, biblical worldview. If these things are happening in your life, then Marxism is not going to be able to get its hooks in you like it can if we can divorce you from your family and divorce you from your church. It's a cult. That's exactly what a cult does. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Absolutely. And so that's why. Because it's all about power. And it's all about removing those things that are a threat to that power. I think it's important to, which again, remember Black Lives Matter on their website before they changed it, right?

Destruction of the nuclear family. Yes. I know. Yes. I know. So, but it's power, it's their power. Yes. By disempowering you or anyone else that they don't select.

It takes, I mean, the World Economic Forum has been talking about ESG and all of this crap. And their goal, they say, is by 2030, you will own nothing and you'll be happy. Yeah. I don't think so. Yeah. But I do think they could get us to a place to where we own nothing. Yeah.

But it has to be destroy it. You have, you can't take that much. You don't have to destroy it. You just have to basically, you know, take it. Give it to the state. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to take it or destroy it. You destroy the individual's ability to maintain or have or any of that.

I think I said in some of our discussions before that I'm telling people that, you know, the three most important books right now are the Bible, 1984, and animal farm. It is. It is. It is. It's crazy. We're seeing it. I know. We're watching it right now. We're watching the.

rules on the wall will be changed, you know, from, from day to day, you know. And again, we're watching those people who, on the one hand, talk about despising, you know, power and power dynamics. But do everything that they can to accumulate power for themselves. Talk to me a little bit about, well, first of all, do the Southern Baptists, do they believe in, do you believe in the rapture? Well, some Southern Baptist do, some Southern Baptists don't. There's 47,000 Southern Baptist churches. And, you know, when you start talking about eschatology, right? And in times, there's different groups and different camps.

Yeah. And so that's not an area where Southern Baptist rule one way or another. Yeah, yeah. I so want this to be true because I have a lot of Southern Baptist friends. And they're like, yeah, Christ is coming. And I'm like, oh, I hope you're true. I hope that he takes me too. But I worry about some of my friends because people have, I mean, I personally think we're living in the latter days.

But they've been thinking about that. The apostles thought that. And if you don't do the things you're supposed to, if you're just like, the bus is going to come pick me up before it happens. If the bus doesn't show up, you're in trouble. you're in trouble. Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about, I just, I keep coming back to this with you. I feel like teach us how to prepare, how to be obedient.

What the important, obedience and endurance, I said to my kids when they were young. That's what life is really all about. Obedience and endurance. And they were like, dad, you make it sound like life's a drag. And I'm like, if you have those two things down, it's not. Right. If you don't recognize that, it's going to be a hell show. Right.

Yeah. You know, I was talking about 2nd Corinthians 10 earlier. And, you know, you continue on in that first paragraph there in that chapter, you get to this two-pronged approach, right? And it's, you know, we destroy every argument and lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of Christ. And we take every thought captive to obey. Christ. That's what we have to do. That's how we prepare. And I like to talk about those in reverse. Number one, take every thought captive to obey Christ. And one of the major, one of the major problems that we have is that people have not taken every thought captive. In other words, they have this

kind of bifurcated view of life. And they say, over here is God and over here is Jesus and over here is salvation and over here is church right and here's my that spiritual part of my life and then over here is politics and economics and you know all these other things and so we're not bringing this under this umbrella and so we don't have a full-orbed biblical theological theological understanding of civics for example so i know you're i knew you're a history guy right so if we look, you know, pietism, you know, takes hold. Piatism is the idea that basically, you know, we're just here to be religious people in church,

not involved in that secular world or, you know, whatever, right? Liberalism, let's say, you know, again, we're back 1920s, 30s. Liberalism takes hold and the fundamentalists respond. Jay Greffield from Machen and so on and so forth. Now, now fundamentalism is a, you know, it's a pejorative, right? But when I say fundamentalism, I mean, those people who said, no, to the liberals, no, we believe in the fundamentals. You're denying the virgin birth, right?

You're denying the resurrection. You're denying the supernatural. So the fundamentalists say, no, no, no, we believe in those fundamentals of the faith. We move forward, you know, in history. and all of a sudden we get this kind of the sort of religious right movement right now the religious right movement um was a powerful movement but it was based on their ability to get people organized and motivated and and out you know to vote and whatnot but it was a mile wide and half an inch deep the theological foundations weren't there.

It was just activism for activism's sake. It was things are bad. We'll give you a voter guide. Go vote for the guys that we tell you to vote for. And then we'll turn this thing around because we voted for the right guys. And that's not the answer. We have to take every thought captive to obey Christ. I don't just need to know who to vote for.

I need to know why I'm voting. Amen. Right? Yes. I don't just need to know I like this policy. I don't like that policy. What's wrong with this policy? Like fundamentally, what's wrong with this policy?

See? So I need to all of Christ for all of life. Take every thought captive to obey Christ. And destroy every argument. and lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God. That's the two-pronged war that we fight. Number one, having this, you know, full-orbed, well-developed, biblical worldview.

And then number two, with that, being able to say, no, that's problematic because. No, he's problematic because. Right? It's not enough to just say, you know, know, we're, you know, going to vote against this, that, or the other. You know, we're going to be pro-life. Why are you going to be pro-life? From a biblical theological perspective, why are you going to be pro-life?

Talk to me about being created in the image of God and having inherent dignity, worth, and value, right? Talk to me about the sanctity of human life because of the incarnation of Jesus Christ, who doesn't just come into the world as a full-grown man. in order to redeem and ransom humanity. He comes as an embryo, right? Thereby sanctifying human life from its very origins and beginnings all the way through to its natural end, right? So that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

We've got to be able to think through these things biblically so that nobody just can come and, you know, just drag us by the nose, right, and for us to be carried away by every wind of doctrine. So it's a long way around to answering your question. No, no, no, it's a good answer. So take me to, and I don't know if you can off the top of your head, but take me to, you said economics need to be brought under. Talk to me about our economics, what we're doing right now.

How is God in that? Yeah, and what we're doing right now? or what we should be doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why is this wrong what we're doing? Yeah. Partly because it's theft, right? I mean, that's the main reason that it's wrong

is because we're actually taking from people. Render unto Cesar's, what do you mean? In order to give to other people. Wait, isn't that render under Cesar? Sort of, right? But what are we rendering under Caesar for? Why does Caesar exist? What is Caesar's purpose, right?

Under when Jesus' time, though, Caesar was, he was not a good... No, no, absolutely. But we have to understand what the purpose of government is. Yes, right? To protect rights. Yeah, absolutely. And to, you know, encourage what is good and to punish what is evil, right? That's government's purpose.

It's not government's purpose, for example, to be in the business of raising children. It's not government's purpose, you know, to be in the business even of taking care of the poor. That's not their sphere, right? It's our sphere. And the churches. It absolutely is. So from that standpoint, you know, Abraham Kuyper, you know, he, he, you know, he, had, you know, this big idea of sphere sovereignty, right?

God gives us these institutions. He gives us the family. He gives us the state and he gives us the church. These three different spheres, right? And these three different spheres have certain responsibilities and they have sovereignty in those, you know, particular spheres. And what we have is we've got these jurisdictional usurpations of sphere sovereignty, like the government, basically, you know, usurping the sphere sovereignty of the home, of the family. So again, but just particularly back to economics, the idea of personal property, the idea of personal responsibility, the idea of, you know.

How is personal property tie into the Lord? Yeah, well, I mean, we're told, for example, in the Bible that we shouldn't move, you know, the ancient landmarks. You know, we're, we're, the idea of people's property being their own in the New Testament. You know, Anonias and Sapphire, everybody talks about, you know, Anonis and Safire because, you know, God judges them because they withheld, you know, part of the money that they got, you know, from the sale of their, their home. The problem wasn't that they, you know, didn't give that up. Right. Peter says, you know what?

Before you sold that, that was yours. But then you sold it and you said that you were going to give it, right? Right. That's where the judgment came. But before you sold that, that was yours. It didn't belong to someone else. It belonged to you, right? I mean, you know, the respect for the respect for personal property,

the stewardship of personal property, you know, the parable of the talents, you know, all of these things are clearly outlined in the scriptures if we are willing to study to show ourselves approved, if we're willing to, you know, tease these things out. And not only that, but we also see the things that are wrong. when government, for example, begins to usurp the sphere of the family. You know, families, by the way, were meant to be places of, you know,

not just consumption, places of production, right? So anyway. Let me build on that a bit with this question. How do you how do you balance just recently with now the military is now flying military members out of state to be able to get abortions so not only is the government paying for the abortion with my money but they're also paying for the flight and they're encouraging all of these things I stand firmly against and they become abusive really abusive

to things that I hold sacred, not that I like, not that, but sacred. How do you, how do you square that circle with, you know, obeying your governments? Yeah. Here's what's interesting. We're not necessarily called to obey our government in everything. Nobody can command what God forbids and nobody can forbid what God commands. Okay. COVID regulations notwithstand.

that was inappropriate. The government doesn't have the right to tell the church that she can't meet, for example. And I think we have, for example, in Acts chapter four, we have an example of this when, you know, Peter and John are told not to, you know, preach or teach anymore in the name of Jesus. And their response is, right, whether it is right to obey you rather than God, you be the judge, but we cannot stop speaking about what we heard when the Apostle Paul is in jail in Philippi. He's been jailed there,

and eventually they find out that he's a Roman citizen, and, you know, okay, you go? No, I'm not going. You bring the magistrate here, right? He jailed me illegitimately, right? So as Christians, our position is not, that the state just, you know, has the right to do whatever the state wants to do.

As Christians, on the one hand, no one has the right to command what God forbids or forbid what God commands, right? And out of deference to the state, we're willing to accept whatever punishment we have to accept when we say no, right? Right. But on the other hand, as citizens, we have rights. And here's the other thing as Americans. We're in a very unique position. And again, all of Christ for all of life, right? Most Americans look at, like Romans 13, you know, I think that you're alluding to.

And they say, well, you know, according to Romans 13, you know, we have to submit to them. Guess what? As an American, do you know what my governing authority is? It's not an individual. It's God. God is ultimately my governing authority, but as an American citizen, my governing authority is the Constitution. Yes. Correct.

That's my governing authority. And everybody is held to that governing authority. So one of the problems that we have is we don't know what it says. So when this person says something that's completely out of line with that, well, we go, oh, I guess I'm supposed to be. to do it. No. What you might ought to do is confront that based on the fact that they are not obeying what we're all, you know, agreed to obey, which is our

Constitution. We are a we're a constitutional republic. Right. There's people going to jail now. You said you have to take responsibility and they are taking responsibility. But they're being unjustly, I believe, unjustly held 11 years in prison is insanity. It's a misdemeanor. If that, if that,

for what do you talk? For the abortion, the FACE Act, have you? No, no, no, no. Oh, you haven't heard this? No. So, I live in Africa. Yeah, I know you live in Africa. So the FBI has rounded up 12, 11 or 12 people now. One of them is like an 84-year-old

grandmother who was praying at the entrance of an abortion clinic. At the time the abortion clinic came and told them they had to go. Some of them were hit with a misdemeanor for trespassing, I think. And it was over. Two years ago, the DOJ has started opening up cases now of those misdemeanors that were just misdemeanor and dismissed. And they are now charging them with a face act, which is blocking the entrance.

And they are facing 11 years. Wow. Our government is completely out of control. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Well, you know, we have a recourse.

Right. We have a recourse, you know. Right. So at the ballot box. Right. So what I have a recourse at the ballot box. box. What I want to ask, I want to ask you, because that's my response. Yeah. But where do you think, where do you think the Lord stands on difference between protecting yourself and going out and

creating violence or looking for violence to correct it? Where do you think the Lord is on peace and advancing? Yeah. Well, we don't look for violence. I mean, vengeance is mine. I mean, vengeance is my said the Lord, I would repay, right? So, I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a pretty clear line there. But at the same time, you know, defending our own lives. That's different. You know, that's, that's, that's, if they come for me and they're trying to take my life or take my children's lives. I don't have an obligation to let you kill me. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Let's change the subject to, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, let's, let's change the subject to, um, the culture a bit. It is almost impossible to ride the culture right now. I saw some things on Twitter yesterday that are happening in our inner cities where this crowd was just beating this guy down, black on black, beating him down, just kicking him in the head, vicious. His girlfriend, wife, I don't know, came and actually put her body over his head because they were kicking him in the head. He just lifted up and slapped her out, slapped her out, knocked her out. I see a video of these guys on stage doing vile, vile things on stage. And then the next video related to that was these kids this tall doing.

that and actually having adults around encouraging it. What the hell's happened? How do we... Where is anyone stopping this? Yeah. This is that Romans 1, you know? This is that 2nd Timothy 3. This is that devolution of culture.

It's incredibly sad to watch. but it seems like incredibly discouraging to watch it's so discouraging yeah Kanye has stood up against this and was brutalized yeah for it you know and I don't yeah yeah I don't know about I really honestly don't know about Kanye where he's at but

I mean he at least was speaking out against it yeah and but you know here's the deal that comes from somewhere right that that comes from brokenness. And it comes from a broken worldview. It comes from a devaluation of humanity, not to mention our fallenness in sin, right? So, you know, man is fallen and sinful. That's the problem internally. And then the culture is broken and fallen and sinful. And that's the problem externally. And then what we don't have is we don't have, you know, the state, again, that sphere, doing and being what it's supposed to do and be, right?

And courage that which is good and punish, that which is evil. Instead, they're encouraging that which is evil and often punishing that which is good. So that causes this to mushroom, right? And then, of course, if from the individual perspective, we're not coming at that with law and gospel. If we're not coming at that with the law that points us to our need for Christ. And if we're not coming at that with the gospel, right, that shows how what we need is repentance and faith. But instead, church just becomes, like we talked about earlier, just this sort of social institution. right, you know, or some other perversion, you know, of this gospel.

I mean, where's we going to go? But see more of this. Is Satan real? Yes. So describe what is it. The prince of the power of the air. Yeah, what is he? Working the sons of disobedience.

Yeah. There is a real devil. There is real evil. But, you know, in Ephesians chapter two, those first, you know, three verses, is we see this triad, right? We do see Satan. We do see the devil. I mean, he is real.

He is a fallen angel. He is the prince of the power of the air. He is at work in the sons of disobedience. Father of all lies. Father of all chaos. Absolutely. We do see that. But we also see the world, right?

This world, this world. world system that we live in, okay, that teaches us what to think, why to think, when to think, okay, how to think, um, it teaches us, you know, what to desire, when to desire. So we see the world and they also see the flesh. We are fallen in Adam. And we inherit, um, a sin nature from Adam because of our fallen Adam. Now you put these together. It's the world, the flesh and the devil. And that's what gets you, this chaos that we find ourselves in. And again, when we're encouraging that and when we're calling good, evil, and evil good,

we're pouring gasoline on that fire. The people who are, I think there's a small number of people who know they're doing the bidding of evil. and I don't even know who they are, don't, you know, but I think there are those who know exactly what they're doing. But the most part, the others are not. Is that why we're supposed to love our enemy? Because they're by the grace of God, go I? I was just talking to somebody who wrote the book

the, oh, I can't remember, but it's on, it's on fascism and what we're going through right now. And he said there's this, not to get into a Gnostic kind of belief, but there's this, there's a percentage of people who when this stuff happens, they just, and he said, I don't know why, but they just don't go there. They just don't, they see the world differently than the 70%, you know what I mean? And they're from the beginning going, what are you guys doing? and I don't believe that we were born just knowing.

I don't believe any of that. But there's a difference between the leadership and those who have just fallen slowly and don't even know, isn't there? Yeah, there absolutely is. And most people fall into that category of follower, you know, and who've fallen slowly and don't really know. but back to your your question about you know loving our enemies that you're right i mean for the grace of god go i but also these are people who are made in the image of god

there are there are brothers and sisters and he wants all of his kids back these are people who are made in the image of god um and and our our desire my desire for that individual is for them to come to repentance and faith. My desire is for their sin to be nailed to the tree. My desire is for Christ to have the fullness of the reward for which he died. That's my desire. Now, if it were not for the fact that I know that God is going to set everything right, then, you know, I would feel like I had to write everything.

wrong and I would feel like I had to exact vengeance. Correct. I don't, right? Whatever those wrongs are, they're either going to be punished upon that person if they don't come to repentance and faith or nailed to the cross, right? But in either way, it is not incumbent upon me to bring about that judgment. And the other thing is, again, back to what you said, there but for the grace of God, you know, my sin was nailed to the tree. Okay. I placed my faith in the finished work of Christ. So I'm not who I am because I figured it out. I'm not who I am because I'm inherently better than anyone. You know, I am who I am and I stand where I stand because of God's grace to me through the person and work of Christ. So that takes away boasting, as Paul would say in Romans, right? There's no room for boasting. Right. Yeah.

You're going back to Africa tonight. Tonight, yeah. Yeah. Why? I mean, I used to think, you know, go to Australia, go to New Zealand. Now I think, no, there's really no place. There's no place. But what do you, what do you, why Africa?

Why the poll? You know, I'm in Zambia down in South Central Africa. And really, I went there to, to help. to help start the university, to help start the African Christian University. And it was a fit, you know? It was a fit. My gifts, talents, abilities, and desires

were just a fit for this need and for this unique opportunity. And it is a very unique opportunity. In a country about the size of Texas with, you know, about half the population, it's a constitutionally Christian Republic there's receptivity there you know to the gospel and and there's just there's an opportunity

to do something with with lasting impact and you know and so we're there I ask you this because I know why you're there but you know people who will listen to you and hear you I know they're like come back to a merit you're a voice we really need.

Does that ever pull at you? No. Really? No. It doesn't. It really doesn't. I think for a couple of reasons. One, you know, I have opportunities to, I come back three or four times a year, and I'm here for about, you know, 10 or 12 days during different speaking tours. And I get to see and be around and have relationships with folks who get it and who are doing incredible work. What did you what did you feel from Africa that when you arrived you didn't have locked in do you learned anything about where we are or what's happening that you

couldn't feel or see from across the water? I think the speed with which it's happening I come back about once a quarter and it's crazy you You know, when I see certain things out. I was watching something the other day. It was probably like a football game or something. I don't get to watch football games anymore, you know. So when I'm here, you know, I go to a restaurant with people and you know how they have the games.

And I'm the guy who's, you know, too, you know. I just don't get to see them anymore, you know. I've got 11 days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I saw a commercial. I think it was a commercial for, you know, some kind of pharmaceuticals or something. Maybe in age drug or something.

And it was just open, blatant, you know, just in your face. And I was, I'm sitting there, you know, my jaw practically on the ground. And I'm going, wait, what? What am I seeing right now? And people around me are going, oh, yeah. You know, so I think for me, you know, being away and then coming back. It's good. It just really does.

The other thing is, because we moved in 2015. So we were there at the end of the Obama administration. And, you know, I'm a news guy, you know, and talk radio, whatever. And, you know, I stay up on what's happening and, you know, think about things. I try to think about things. And, you know, and I go over there. and I'm listening to, you know, BBC Africa and to their reporting

on the Obama administration and on America and it's, and I'm going, what are they talking about? Where are they getting this from? You know? And so, in the end, of course, you know, Trump wins and, you know,

talk about people running around with their hair on fire, right? Oh, yeah. And so it's just really interesting to be in another, country and listen to the way that people perceive what's what's going on in America. And then the third thing is being in a developing country, I have so come to appreciate what we have in America. Things that people take for granted, right?

Such as infrastructure. but not just infrastructure, just the cultural differences. For example, you come to a four-way stop at most places in the United States, and people will stop and take turns. They don't do that. Really? It's the Wild West, man. Wow.

You know, you come to it because, you know, we got, you're trying to. lights, but they don't ever work. And, you know, you come to a stop and you just got to, you got to, you know, you just got to be really careful. I have a lot of faith, man, you know. But, but that's a cultural thing. Yeah. You know?

And, and it's, those kind of things I've, I've just come to, you know, to appreciate. And also, I've come to see what the deterioration. you know, and the degradation of those things look like over time. And then on the other side, you know, I'm in a country where, you know, there's certain laws, you know, in terms of morality and things like that, are more like what we used to have, you know, here in the United States. So, yeah, I just, I don't know, I see things from a different perspective. You know, we've been there for seven years now.

and it's just been very interesting to see the changes and just to become more and more aware of what it means to be an American. I tell people all the time, if I've learned anything by living in Africa, it's that I'm not an African. It is great.

It is great to see you. We've known each other now for two or three years and have never had a chance to sit down face to face. It's an honor to be your friend. Yeah, it really is. And I appreciate it. I appreciate our discussions,

whether it happened in front of a camera or behind a camera, you know, and I'm grateful. God bless you. Thank you. Bless your brother. Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate

and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.