The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 167 | The Levi's Exec Who Sacrificed EVERYTHING to Stand Up for Kids | Jennifer Sey | The Glenn Beck Podcast

Episode Date: December 10, 2022

Within two years, former Levi Strauss & Co. brand president Jennifer Sey went from voting for Elizabeth Warren to calling out the Left for its woke hypocrisy. On this episode of "The Glenn Beck Podcast," Jennifer shares her story and what she discovered about the cultish behavior of “woke capitalism." Once, she had a chance at becoming CEO of Levi’s. But when the COVID-19 pandemic led to school shutdowns, she spoke her mind as a frustrated mom — and the backlash was beyond anything she could have expected. "Are you one of us or one of them?" Levi’s asked her. Her answer is summed up in her new memoir, “Levi’s Unbuttoned: The Woke Mob Took My Job but Gave Me My Voice.” But she’s no stranger to fighting corruption. She and Glenn also discuss her experience as an elite gymnast who gave up a chance at an Olympic gold medal to escape the abusive coaches and trainers she has since exposed. SPONSORS: Better Spectacles, a conservative American company, is now exclusively offering Rodenstock eyewear for the first time in the U.S. Rodenstock is a 144-year-old German company and has been considered the world’s gold standard for glasses. Go to https://BetterSpectacles.com/BECK to get an introductory 61% off Better Spectacles' progressive eyewear plus free handcrafted Rodenstock frames. You see, when an expectant mother has an unplanned pregnancy, Preborn is there. Preborn clinics introduce moms to their babies through ultrasound, and it’s a divine encounter. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword “BABY” or donate securely at https://preborn.com/GLENN   If you're one of the millions of Americans who suffer every day from pain, there is hope, and it comes in the form of Relief Factor. If you want a drug-free and natural way to get your life back, go to https://relieffactor.com or call 800-4-RELIEF to get the $19.95 three-week quick start.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a child, today's guest was an elite gymnast. She was considered a U.S. hopeful for an Olympic gold medal when she was just 19 years old. A year after, she won the national champion. But beneath the surface, she was battered by injuries that still impact her today, both physical and emotional. She had to make a tough decision. Keep suffering, keep hurting herself for the chance of Olympic gold, or quit, put herself back together, and hope. for redemption. Well, she quit. And since exposed her abusive coaches and trainers in the Emmy winning documentary Athlete A, she would not let them control her life, which seems to be a trend

with her. After a 23-year career at Levi Strauss in company, she rose to the rank a brand president and had the chance to become the next CEO of Levi's. But when Levi's went woke, she was faced with another decision, fall in line and continue climbing the ladder, or quit and keep her voice. She quit. She also gave up a million-dollar exit package, which would have required her to sign a non-disclosure agreement,

but she still remembers that sensation from her gymnastic years of flying through the air beyond everyone's reach and control, and she wasn't going to let anyone take that from her. Today's guest, on a personal note, also, led me to a destructive seven-figure decision in my own life because of a choice she made. Doubt she knows it, but we'll talk about it. Her latest memoir, Levi's Unbutton, the woke mob, took my job, but gave me my voice, details the whole wild story in the chronicles of the secrets of woke capitalism. Today's guest on the Glenn Beck podcast, Jennifer Say.

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That's relieffactor.com, 800, the number four, relief. Welcome, Jennifer. Thanks, right. How are you? I'm good. Good. Thank you for coming in. Absolutely.

I've wanted to talk to you for a long time for a couple of reasons. I find you fascinating from the beginning of your life. And you also, one of I believe your decisions caused a domino to fall in my personal life and it was a seven-figure decision that I made, I think, because of something that you did. We'll get into that later. If this was your decision, in my mind, you were a villain, but I can't wait to talk to you about it. Okay. Let's start with your childhood, because I think if we don't understand your childhood, we don't really understand you. So let's start there.

Sure. I had a pretty unusual childhood. I was an elite gymnast. I started gymnastics at six years old, and by the time I was 10, I qualified for the elite level. That's the level to get on the national team and travel around the world. I was on the national team for eight years, national champion in 1986. It is a brutal sport, an incredibly cruel training. environment, absolutely physically, emotionally abusive. And as I think now, the world knows,

rife with sexual abuse as well. That's crazy. And especially, and maybe not, I don't know, but talking about the physical and mental, back in the 80s, we were going up against the Soviet Union. So I don't know if it's changed at all, but we knew what they went through, not thinking that we did that to our own people. Has it changed at all? Well, you know, in 2016, the story of Larry Nassar broke. And he was the USA Team Gymnastics Doctor for 30 years. And he sexually abused hundreds, over 500 young athletes.

He went to prison for life in 2018. So that sort of blew the door wide open on the story. And I had written a book about the abuse in the sport in 2008 and was just, I mean, that was my first sort of taste of being canceled. Kind of prepped me, I guess, for being canceled on a larger stage, if you will. You know, I think we like to present an image in the United States that we were different and we did it because we loved it. But, you know, I started in the 70s. It was bad.

I mean, coaches hit the kids. Oh, my God. The national team coach for the 80s, the Olympians. coach in 1984 he was a sexual assaulter he was a rapist oh my gosh of the team well we don't have to get into yeah I mean the one specific case that I know that he was actually banned from the sport for is one of my closest friends and I wrote about it in the book and everybody said how dare you you know tarnish this man's reputation you're a liar and a grifter all the same terms they always use liar and grifter um and this was a

before me too, so no one had to believe women. We were just, you know, I mean, I was considered, you know, a failed ex-gymist, that it was bitter and trying to get back and make money. And to bring you back on track, it wasn't, you weren't a failed gymnast, you chose to leave. You were at the height, and I assume your parents were there, obviously, from six, which is a huge commitment for a whole family, right? Yeah, it really is. And so then you get to the top, you're ready to go to the Olympics two years away from it. And you say, I'm quitting. I actually quit just a month before the Olympic trials in 88.

And I really was so broken at that point that I could not continue. Explain that because you had several things going on. Yeah, I mean, I had a ton of injuries. I had broken my femur at the World Championships in 1985, which is bad. Bad. Yeah. I mean, having had four years, children, I will tell you it's worse than childbirth.

I wouldn't wish it on, you know, on anyone. I came back from that nine months later to win the national championship. So, you know, I wasn't letting my injuries heal and I just kept getting one injury on top of the next. And by 1988, I had been training on a broken ankle for two years. I didn't know it was broken. The doctor kept saying, there's nothing wrong. You're fine. Take another cortisone shot.

But more than that, my mind, was I was just unraveling. I had a bad eating disorder. I was anorexic. And I just lost the ability, frankly, to do the sport. And the Germans, it was against the law for you to feed a Jew anything over, I think it was 600 calories a day just to keep them completely weak. I never knew that. You weren't allowed to eat over 400 calories.

Well, that was my self-imposed. Okay. But to maintain the weight that I was asked to maintain, that's what was required. And we were, you know, weighed twice a day and screamed at over the gym's loudspeaker. You know, we don't coach fat gymnast. Jennifer gained a quarter of a pound. Oh, my gosh. I mean, the humiliation and the bullying, it's pretty horrific.

And so I, yeah, I mean, I was on a. starvation diet, but so were all the members of my team. We all were. We were told lose weight by tomorrow by any means possible. Wink, wink, you know, that's, you're not going to do that in a healthy way if you're already 98 pounds and 18 years old. Oh my gosh. So I was falling apart. Yeah. And I, you know, I'd like to say it was an empowering decision to walk away, but it wasn't. I mean, I left feeling ashamed and just like a complete failure. It took me years. It took me years. to rebuild myself. And why is that?

Everybody, you know, you mentioned the parents, my parents had given up so much, arguably too much, you know, and really upset with me. I mean, I didn't talk with my mother for over a year after I walked away. Everybody was disappointed and angry and felt they'd put so much into this career,

and I was disappointing them. And I was like, but, I'm falling apart. I mean, I was suicidal. You did tell them this, right? You told them about, you know, fat-shaming and not when it was happening. Not when it was happening. And parents weren't really allowed in the gym. Although my mom did work there periodically. I mean, I think she knew, but it was so normalized. Do you know how you can be in this, like, microcosmic world? And suddenly these completely horrific behaviors become normal. Yeah, it's called America. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get to that. And so I think it just became normalized, and I even thought it was normal, but I was suffering.

And the problem is, and this is what abusers do, they, if you weren't bad, I wouldn't have to treat you this way. If you weren't fat, I wouldn't have to treat. And so you internalize it, and then you feel ashamed for suffering. And that's what was so hard to get over that took me two decades, really, was to not kind of internalize the shame and make it about me being a bad, weak person. So you leave there, you go to Stanford. Tell me what you pursue. Where do you go from here? Well, when I went to college, I was exhausted.

You know, I was 19 and I felt like I was going to a retirement home. And I get there and all the kids are, you know, excited to be out on their own for the first time. And I'm just tired. And I'd lived on my own to train. I'd traveled the world. I was a good student. You know, I wouldn't have gotten into Stanford. But I wasn't a very curious or I had a lot of insecurity about me.

intellect school had not been a focus mostly I wanted to have fun and I got you know I was pretty I was rebellious as one can be when they're young and it was a good period of time for me and I sort of learned what I was interested in academically but I was still I lacked confidence to actually pursue what I wanted to we stop there for a second just as a unrelated side note the I don't think people realize the importance if you're in a position of authority or people just look up to you the importance of saying you're smart you're good you belong here you should continue to question people I think all of us have this this view of ourselves

that we kind of hide that we're not worthy or we're not good enough or smart enough and when somebody somebody says to you or you have to a vet prove it to yourself that you are smart enough. It's incredibly freeing, isn't it? Yeah, I don't know if I would have listened, but yeah, no one. I mean, my dad did say it. I always felt not smart enough and not good enough. I don't think dads and moms count. Yeah, you're right. Probably somebody else needs to say it. I did. I had terrible imposter syndrome, as it's called. I was waiting for them to throw me out of school. And I probably had it well into my late 30s, you know.

I don't know where that comes from. I don't think everybody has it. I think a lot of people do it. I think you're right. I think a lot of women type A women have it. That's for sure. I know I might be one of them because I had it real for a very long time. So how did you?

Somebody said to me, you know, you're smart enough to figure this stuff out. and he was a Yale professor. And then couple that with being called everything under the sun and being a decent human being that doesn't just blow that off, you actually go, wait a minute. Right. Am I that? Do I do those things?

Once you've self-examined enough, which should never stop happening, but you really know who you are, then you don't care. And that's the most freeing of all. So how old were you when that happened? I was 32 when somebody said, you're smart enough. And I was probably 43. When you believed it. Yeah, and I didn't care anymore.

Interesting. Because I had, like you, I had been attacked from every angle. And even your allies that you thought were allies, attack you from behind and you're like wait what is happening here yeah that's about the age i was 43 yeah i don't think i had that person to say that to me um and in fact as i was kind of coming up the ladder in corporate america which you know we'll talk about it was sort of the opposite you know it was because they you're you know you're this that and the other you're not this you'll never be a leader um you know you're a good number three and you can do the appointments and the

you know, the tactical stuff, but you have no vision. And it took me until I was probably in my early 40s to say, you're wrong. Yes. I am good enough. Yes. Yeah. And those are the people that changed the world.

It's amazing to me how many people. I didn't understand Frank Sinatra's New York, New York, until I actually live there and then I was at the top of the heap. If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. what he means is there are thousands of people who will shiv you in the back for that opportunity. You know what I mean? And that opportunity is usually not given. You have to come in and just, I don't care what anybody else says.

This is who I am and this is what I'm going to do. Those people change the world. Yes. And this is what I'm capable of. Yes. I don't care what you say. Correct. This is what I am capable of.

Corporate and political and everything is geared to, make you feel small, I think. Yeah, they do a pretty good job. And I started in a hole, you know, with the training that I described. And that's part of why I lay all of this out in my new book to say, if I can get there, having started in this deep hole and didn't even, you know, start to climb out of it really until my mid-30s, then you can do it too. Yes, yes.

It's hard. It's hard work. And it's not to say, I think you raise a really good point, that you don't listen to what other people have to say who are offering feedback in good faith, but you get to decide what's true and what's not and what you need to work on. And even if they say things about you that are not true, if you can figure out if more than one is saying it, maybe there's something I'm doing that is causing people to feel that way. So what is that? And then you have just a series of just life is nothing but a series of decisions. Yeah, you have to kind of integrate it and kind of, am I presenting myself

this way? Am I, is there, you know, something I need to adjust? What is true? Yeah, exactly. But it takes great, you have to really, you have to have a lot of self-knowledge to be able to do that, and it took me a long time. Do you think you can do that without, um, severe setbacks of some sort, without your childhood, without what just happened at Levi's? Can you get there if your life is pretty charmed and no there's no real resistance that's a good question i don't know the answer to it i've been wondering if anybody does i'm not sure i mean i've certainly encountered lots of folks that are sort of the opposite that yeah i think it's called dunning kruger syndrome that like you know overestimate their abilities and their capability and certainly never listen to any feedback

because they're so confident and that's a problem also in the opposite direction. I don't know if that's a function of a charmed life, though, or just a sort of innate personality disorder. Every minute in this country, babies are dying from abortion. It is perhaps the worst stain on our country's conscience in her long history, bringing shame and tragedy into the world every single day. But in the midst of darkness, there is always a light, and that light is preborn. Preborn introduces mothers considering abortion to the their unborn babies through ultrasound. Once they hear that heartbeat and see the precious life with their own eyes, 80% of the time they choose life. Preborn. The pregnancy clinics are positioned in top abortion areas where most abortions, unfortunately, still take place.

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Our goal is to save 50,000 blaze babies. Will you join us? just dial pound two five zero and say the keyword baby that's pound two five zero keyword baby or securely at preborn.com slash glen so um you leave school when do you get to levi's so i left school in 92 i graduated in 1992 i didn't start levies till 1999 so i had a couple few jobs in between okay and you joined levis because You love the product. You love the company.

I had worn the brand since I was a child. Who hasn't? I know. I mean, almost everyone has a pair of Levi's in their closet. Are you from right coast or left coast? I'm from Philadelphia. Philadelphia. My wife didn't grow up with Levi's.

It was so strange. On the East Coast. On the East Coast. Buttonflies where everybody wore them where I grew up. They really didn't cross into the East Coast until like 84, 85. That's so strange. Yeah, and, you know, they were a big sponsor for the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, and that was really when the distribution opened wide in the U.S. Isn't that interesting? It was very much a West Coast brand. Okay, so you join as?

About as low level as you can be assistant to the assistant something. Very low level. And you, when did you become chief marketing? I became chief marketing officer in 2013 in the fall. of 2013 and you know it's interesting because I had risen the ladder and I was a vice president there's a lot of vice presidents people don't get that in in corporate but when the CEO that is the current sitting CEO started in 2011 his name is Charles Berg Chip Berg he liked me a lot and it really kind of accelerated my career it also ended it which we'll get to it was interesting he didn't have this baggage you know he hadn't known me since I was an assistant. He took me as I was as I presented myself, you know, because if people have known

you for 12, 13 years, they have all this data and they remember when you were 29 and maybe said something dumb. The best thing kids can do at 18, I think, is move away from their hometown. Oh, yeah. Because you get a chance to be you. Yep. Not what everybody. I'm still, my, my sisters are still not impressed with their little stinky brother. Yeah, yeah, of course. Still, you know, small one in the family so yeah get away from it so it was um you know it was a real gift you know he came in and he took me as I was in the moment and um he appointed me as the CMO in 2013 and I sat in that chair for eight years which is really long for a CMO most I think the average tenure is 18 months 20 months so then you were not the person that made the decision you may have been on the team

um that affected me I'd love to hear I I've always loved Levi's, always loved Levi's. I'm a big fan of Cone Mills. Yeah. Oh, you know Cone. That's awesome. And I have always loved the product. It is America. It's not politics.

It's America. Hard, working. Best values. Best values. Yeah. Best representation of what we think of as America. Correct. Levi's was the symbol of America.

Yep. To the Soviet Union, the people would give their arm for a pair of 501s. Did you know? We had pictures in the hallways at the plaza, as we called it. When the wall came down, man atop the wall, all wearing Levi's 501s, not product placement because some smart market would try to do that today, but because it was a symbol of freedom, the world over. So you ran Levi's land, ran a spot of.

I know what you're going to say. You know what I was? I think so. Keep going. We are the uniform of the revolution. It's not mine. Thank you. I'm glad. I started my own gene company. I ran for about 10 years and, you know, I had nothing.

I did it out of, I love Levi's. And if you are going to take that stand, I don't love another pair of jeans. I personally will make it from the cone mills. I will make the jeans that Levi's used to make. And it cost me a fortune. I bet. But everything made in America.

And it was just because of that ad. I was so angry at how dare you take that position when there's lots of us that don't have that position. Yeah. So I write about that campaign in the book. it was not mine. I was running e-commerce at the time. I was the recipient as the commercial leader of that content

and was like, what? No, I can't use this. One, it's dark. Like, forget the, you know, politics or, you know. No, it was revolution in these Molotov cocktails. People have fun in jeans. What are we doing here? You can't even see any product.

Our business was terrible at the time. And this was like this desperate attempt to appeal to younger consumers by capitalizing on their perceived activism. Horrible. It was terrible. And I was like, I can't even use any of this. And to his credit, the CEO did not like it either. You know, he was in early days. And I think some stuff was already about to go.

And that was, you know, why he put me in the role. He was like, we got to get back to marketing the gene. in a relevant way with a focus on the product. So you cannot be mad at me about that. I'm not mad at anybody anymore. Or him. He didn't like it either. I still don't buy Levi's because of that.

But so I want to, because there's so many labels and none of them are ever defined. And I'm convinced that so many people have so much more in common than they have. I agree. You say you're a progressive. And I define progressive clearly as the early 1900s. Most people don't even know the origin of progressives. But instead of using labels, do you believe in the Bill of Rights? Yes.

All of them, all like the top 10. Yes. Then we have no issue. Yeah. I would say, I formerly, I formerly, identified as a lefty. I would have said left of left of center, used progressive in that place. You know, given the last few years of my life and what we've all experienced, you know, I wouldn't use those labels anymore. And I wouldn't use any of the labels anymore because I still believe in the

idea of progress and, you know, making life better for the most possible people, including as many people as possible in the American dream. I believe in this project. I believe in free speech, which does not seem to be a progressive value right now. So I would just shy away from using any of the labels. Yeah, I'm with you. I don't know what conservative means anymore.

I just want to conserve the Bill of Rights and the amendments. We want to change things. Great. Let's do it. Let's just use the process to do that. And not coercion. And I think where we collect. I mean, my belief sometimes fail is we don't include everybody in that Bill of Rights or in what it means to move forward and have opportunity.

And I think we make progress there. That's progressive. Progressive is not itself a bad. I believe in progress. Yeah. If you just think of progress as the root of that word. And I think while we failed at times to include everybody in that dream, I think we continue to work hard to make that better. and make progress.

And so I still believe in that. Yeah, okay. I don't think I've changed, really. I mean, we'll get into the story. I've changed in that I reject the left, right binary. I reject, you know, red, blue, any of that. I don't identify as blue. I just believe in everything you just articulated.

That's why we have been separated, I think. We lost the understanding of e-pluribus unum from, many one what are those things that we all believe in and they should be life liberty pursuit of happiness you know first amendment second amendment third amendment we can argue about some of these and where they go but generally speaking that was what brought us all together and that's where the argument kind of ends everything out of free speech we can argue about we'd argue all day long about those things and still love each other and still be one. Yeah, I feel like what is most concerning to me is,

I think this is sort of where you're going. What I've seen in the last three years, let's say, is a vast majority of people do not believe in individual rights. And we're completely fine giving them up and demonizing anyone who said, hey, wait a minute, what about the right together, the right to worship, all of it. All of it.

You were a horrible person, and there seems to be this lack of, you know, Bill of respect for our humanity and the individual, which is why we need individual rights. It was like, I don't, I worry that younger generations are willing to give that up. Oh, I think studies show they are. When I left Fox, one of the reasons I left Fox was Roger L. said to me, and we all love the Constitution because I was pounding on. on the Bill of Rights to the right.

And he said, we all love the Constitution, but there are things we have to do. No, no, that's what leads you to internment camps. Yeah. You know, sorry, Bill of Rights, Constitution. If it's outside of that, you're gonna have to find a legal way to do or just not do what you're planning on doing. Anyway, so you were doing fine and, um, and, um,

trying to pull the company back out of its whole of the revolution. Yeah, and we did it. Did you? Yeah. Okay, good. We put ourselves on a trajectory, and I, you know, I'm proud. I was a big part of that. And was that sales, or is that perception?

Both. Okay. Both. We set in the beginning, you know, 2013, I sort of look at that as the beginning of our kind of march. We called it the 20-mile March, improve every year. bit by bit, top and bottom line. We IPOed in, gosh, was it 2019 or 18? I think it was 19.

So we went public. I got to stand up on the thing. It was a cool moment. I definitely, you know, was a huge part of that process in rebuilding the brand's image and connecting to more and more people around the world and driving sales. Our women's business was through the roof.

It never had been before. We set a goal for ourselves to hit a billion in sales for women's in five years. We did it in two. I mean, we were on fire, and I was definitely kind of the public face of the brand as the chief marketing officer. I was credited with a lot of it, not all of it, a lot of it. Right. And then COVID happened.

Yep. And what happened? From day one, probably even before day one of shutdowns as I sort of saw it coming, I was very outspoken about how wrong it was to close the public schools. Now, I was alarmed about all of it, lockdowns all of it. I knew somewhere in my brain, this was controversial. I didn't feel it yet, but I knew it would be. And I thought, I'll keep my advocacy to children, because to your point, can't we all agree on our kids?

Yes. Isn't that one thing? And if I can get people, I thought of myself as pretty logical and diplomatic. You know, you learn that as a woman in corporate America. I thought I can get people to see it through our children. So I had feelings about all of it, lockdowns and everything, but I focused on kids and restrictions to kids from March 13th, 2020, which is when... Wow, you were really early. I was early.

Good for you. Yeah. Yeah. What were you going to say? No, you know, and I was, you know, what does that look like to be outspoken? I was outspoken on social media. I didn't have much of a following at the time. But it sort of evolved, and I was on local news shows by the fall of 2020.

I was writing op-eds. No one reached out to me at the company until September of 2020. So I had a six-month run where I was like, maybe no one noticed. I'll just keep going. I should mention my husband was also very outspoken, and that'll be part of the story in a bit. And he is, you know, he is a more aggressive communication. than I am. He doesn't work for anyone. So, you know, he went for it. Good for him. I would never tell him he can't do that, although I did get a lot of criticism for the things he said. I said he doesn't work here,

but, you know, so yeah, I was very outspoken from the very beginning. And then, you know, I got that first call from the head of corporate communications. You know, she sees her job, and it is her job to protect the company's reputation. She said, we were all working virtually, so I get a phone call, which no one called anyone, you know, they just sent emails. And I was like, oh, gosh, this is it. This is the one I've been waiting for. And she said, people are noticing your Twitter.

And I said, oh, yeah. When you speak, you speak on behalf of the company. I said, I don't. I don't have Levi's in my bio. I'm a mom of four kids, public school children in San Francisco. She said, You never went on TV as anything Levi-Strauss. And at this point, I don't even think I'd been on,

but I always asked them explicitly, do not identify me as, and usually they said, oh, we didn't even know you were. Because I wasn't out there waving my arms around as the head of Levi. You had to look for it. She said, I don't know, she went on for a bit, and I said, are you telling me I need to stop? I wanted her to say yes, you know. And she said, no, I can't do that.

And I don't know if she meant because, you know, we were peers and she wasn't my boss or because I actually have a right to say or a little bit of both. And I said, okay, then I'm not going to. You know, this is a continuation of the advocacy I've done for children in sports because I became very outspoken about that after my experience in gymnastics. And I wish as a child someone had stood up for me. kids aren't going to do it. And it sort of petered out because neither of us wanted to really keep talking.

And then this is the part that just lit me on fire around that same time all the private schools in San Francisco opened. So she and all of my other peers were sending their kids back to school. Yeah. Mine were in public. Mine are still in public. And the nerve of waving your arms around and talking about a quality of. because this is after the summer of 2020

and the murder of George Floyd and everybody's posting black squares and all you remember we're going to do our part in defeating racism and they're saying to me you can't advocate for what we have

we are wealthy white folks in San Francisco sending our kids to $60,000 a year private elementary schools I'm not crying poor here I chose to I chose to send my kids to public. You cannot advocate for the 50,000 children in San Francisco public schools, 60% of whom are low income to have the same opportunity. So that just sort of let me on fire.

It's the same thing with don't go out, no social, you have to social distance, you can't be any crowds, but go ahead and protest. That may actually be healthy for you. Well, only one kind of protest. Only one kind of protest, yeah. Because my husband had led a few rallies and participated in a few anti-lockdown rallies, and those were all broken up by police. Those were not acceptable. Those were very dangerous. Yeah, they're very dangerous. Even though there were like six people there because it was San Francisco after all. So from that first call in September, it went on that way for another year and a half that I kept getting calls. Different people were assigned to speak to me. They had the unfortunate job of calling me and having me be rather intransigent and just kind of repeat the same

things. Head of HR, a board member. My boss avoided the call. He was a CEO. He doesn't necessarily like having those. But eventually he did. I mean, he called me a trumper and an executive team meeting. I mean, I don't know what that has to do with anything.

You voted for Elizabeth Warren. In the primary. Yeah, that's it. That's not a Trump. I had been a registered Democrat my entire life. If anything, they criticized my views as, you know, Warren, the anti-business, you know. But I was never told I couldn't say things. I was never told not to post about any of, you know, my political leanings until.

So it went on that way. I'd get a call every two weeks. I would say, no, thank you. I don't think I want to stop. The head of legal. you know, said you might want to think about it when you speak on behalf of the company. And he said an interesting thing, the head of legal

when he called me, he said, okay, I understand, but make sure you get to him first. And I was like stopped in my tracks. I didn't know what he meant. And I realized, because at this point I was on some local news shows, he meant I needed to tell Chip my boss if I was going to say something publicly

because this woman in corporate communications was running to him and basically updating him on a weekly basis on my... He wasn't on social media. He didn't know any of it. And of course it was very slanted, you know, the way she was doing that. But it went on that way for a while.

I chose to move my family to Denver in February of 21 so that my youngest children could be in school. And at that point, you know, I post about that on social media and I got a call from... Fox to go on the Ingram angle. You see where this is coming.

I called my little open... You can be on anything except anything on Fox. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I kind of knew that. I mean, I didn't watch the show. I didn't need to. I knew I didn't watch any news at this point.

I was like obsessed with reading COVID data. I called my little group of open. schools, moms, you know, across the country, because at this point, we were all kind of in it together. Most of them came from the same political leanings I did, and they said, you need to do it. This is a chance. We'd been trying to get ourselves in the mainstream. I don't even know what that means. No one would talk to us. We were just billed as these, like, racist, horrible people who QAnon. Oh, I got that. Theoryist, a conspiracy theorist. I had a hood in my closet in the life.

I wanted to kill all the black children. And grandmothers. Those two and teachers. Yeah. All those. Yeah. So, you know, I'm a trained media professional. They said, well, you're going to get dragged for it, but do it.

Do it for us. You know, represent the open schools' moms and go on the show. So I did it in March of 21. And that's when things started to get really bad for me at work. I mean, they were pretty bad before, but they got really bad then. Are you unhappy with your progressive glasses? Have you been told to just go home and get used to your progressives? Not me. I use rodentstock glasses from Better Spectacles now. I love these glasses. Better Spectacles, a conservative American company, is now exclusively offering Rodenstock eyewear for the first time in the U.S.

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dot com slash back this is when yes you got an email for levi's this is this is astounding they wrote to you jan i've been who is it that's writing to you well i'm not going to tell you a name because i'm not going to be mean and but it was somebody in corporate communications and between HR and corporate communications they were suggesting i needed to do an apology tour so this was meant to kindly prepare me for said apology to our. Okay. The thing about this, and my sense is that there are people who just don't like what you're saying or where you said it. It's in conflict, I'd say it's where you said it. It's in conflict with a good bad world we're living in. Doesn't that tell you everything right there,

that we shouldn't be living in a good bad world? Where Fox is bad, MSNBC is good, was going on Fox and that show in particular an endorsement of what they stand for. Are you one of us or one of them? That's the kick in the pants, isn't it? Oh, my gosh. Perhaps an oversimplification. But that's what it feels like. I think explaining why Fox is important.

I don't think you actually need to address each of those, but I'm guessing the following is pretty close to a list in an apology to her, right? Why did you choose Fox, Laura? Ingram's show my guess is you didn't choose them they were the only ones offering correct correct um do you endorse do you endorse the views of fox news and laura angram can you i mean think of that you're being held you're being held to an impossible if i went on msnbc do you endorse the views of whoever that is rachel matt out of course not of course not of course not You're having a conversation.

Well, and I would go on those now, and I don't endorse anything they did for the last three years, but I'm fine to have a conversation. Yes. Are you anti-mask? Do you want me to answer that? Yeah. I had been outspoken about masking of very young children, toddlers. I did not speak about adult masking. I am opposed to it.

I think it hinders communication. But we had a policy, and I didn't talk about it. Great. Are you anti-vax? I was vaccinated in May of 2021. Are you into conspiracy theories? That's the best one. I love this.

Are you into conspiracy theories? Yeah, because you're conspiring against me. So I think it's not a theory. There's a difference between conspiracy theory and conspiracy fact. Are you anti-union? That's an amazing question. Is advocating for school reopenings, perpetrating systematic racism, mostly white moms.

Is there a conflict of interest between your role as Levi's brand president, what you're saying on your personal Twitter? That's the only one that I would push you on their behalf. Sure. If you are the, are you the spokesperson? I was the president. So I got, amidst all of this controversy internally, in October of 2020, I got promoted to brand president.

And that's probably next in line for CEO if you do a good job. Right. Right. Yeah. So, but you never went on. You never identified. Nobody ever identified you as that, right? Can I just tell you I still get, like, right?

I had a book come out two weeks ago. I still get people writing to me now and say, I didn't even know you work for Levi's until your book, which is called Levi's Unbutton. I had no idea. People didn't know. I was just this mom saying we need to open the schools. people really didn't they didn't know so as a business person if the president of my company is saying things that are against me and i just like to hear your response do i have any rights because you're causing disruption with everybody who works here and i understand you know my clientele i i totally

hear where you're coming from no i'm i think it's a fair question it is a fair question i guess i would answer it in it two ways. The first is the business was great. So all the fears and, you know, all the arm waving and hysteria around, you're going to destroy our business and our reputation was false. We were coming out of the COVID hole. You know, our stores have been closed.

You know, our business had been down 70% in the spring and summer of 2020. But we were emerging strong because of the strength of the brand, which is what I led. So I think that's the first and most important point, is it was not impacting the business. The second is, if you're going to have a rule that your leaders can't do this, then you better make them sign something. You better have some sort of policy in place because you had no issue with me

being very outspoken on other issues and politics when they aligned. So now, and I promise you, if I was up screaming about, keep all the schools closed or you're going to kill all the teachers, it would have been fine. So now we're into viewpoint discrimination. That's a problem. And then I will end by saying, I guess they have that right. Fine. I chose this.

I said, I decided for myself this was more important. And if I, and you know what, I was right. It was damaging. Horribly damaging. So does that count? Apparently not. No. But it also, if you were the, if you were the uniform of the revolution,

I would understand that. But if you were trying to dig yourself out of that hole, it would have made people like me. That you leaving only reinforced what I believed about Levi's. You hadn't made that impact on me. And if they would have said, hey, we really disagree with her, but we believe in the right to disagree. See, this is the thing.

I think it could have all been handled so easily. And you mentioned, if you've lost, lost the trust of employees, and certainly as a leader in a company, you know, you have to be aware of that. It was a tiny, tiny percentage of very vocal employees. It was not the entire organization. And in fact, when I did that apology tour, what was the apology tour? So, you know, after I appeared on Ingram's show, the noise, I'll call it noise, that kind of louder and louder, but again, I think it's a small minority of people and they're complaining and they're chit chattering. And so a friend came to me who was on my team and said,

we might want to do this. You might want to do this. And then HR got involved in corporate communications. And I was like, you know, my husband said, you should refuse. And I said, no, I'm just going to do it. I'm not going to apologize. I won't bend a knee, but I will explain myself. I still had this sort of naive faith in my ability to explain myself and build a bridge. So it took some planning. You had a naive, not in your ability, in the ability of others being honest. There. So we had it in June. That was the preparation for it.

I introduced myself. I explained, you know, my background and history and, you know, my advocacy for children in sport and how that was related to this. the fact that two of my children are mixed race, which shouldn't matter, but I, you know, explained all of this. And you got torched for that too, didn't you? Not internally, but certainly don't, you shouldn't bring those. It's like a shield. It's using a shield for your actual racism. Yes, that's what I think my children are. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And so I did it, and there were three questions. only so not all those questions um one was about you know the racism of school advocacy as a white mother although our group of moms in the Bay Area was always diverse so that was a lie perpetrated by the press saying it was just this movement of rich white yoga moms that was never true um one was about my husband and his voice which you know the short answer is he doesn't work here. I support his right to speech and yours and yours and he can say what he wants. He has no constraints, nor should I, honestly, as an employee of this company, spouses can disagree.

How retrograde is that that you assume? I agree with everything my husband says. So we moved on. And then the third was a comment that was just, thank you. I understand better now. And I got a couple of emails the next day, people saying, I really get it now. I do. I understand. So I thought it was like a moment that we kind of, I was like, whew, let's get on with the work. But it just didn't stop. You know, we would have these town halls at work and people would submit, they were all virtual questions about my racism and my conspiracy theorizing. I was called anti-trans, which I don't even understand where that came from. And it just went on and on. And, you know, he got tired of it.

Although, you know, then in the summer, he and I had dinner. My boss and I had dinner. And he said, you're a real candidate for CEO. You're one of two. He'd never said that to me before. It might have been bait to get me to stop, which I didn't do. He then requested a background check. He said it was standard operating procedure, which I believe to be true, but did one on my husband as well.

which included social media and by January, you know, reported back to me and said, you're going to have to leave. Wow. On my performance. It was solely on my advocacy, my social media presence. And here, so, and then he offered me severance. A million dollars. A million dollars.

That comes with a non-disclosure agreement. That's standard. How much is your silence worth? I don't I was going to say more than that but I don't that's a lot of money you know it would make a big difference in my life certainly I certainly would be less nervous about the future I'm not so old I got to make a living I'm a breadwinner for our family but everything I'd been fighting for for two years beyond the children was free expression free speech the First Amendment and

And so taking hush money felt so wrong to me. I just wouldn't have been able to look myself in the mirror. Good for you. So I didn't. And I quit. And then the next day publicly published a piece on Barry Weiss's common sense of sec. Why Barry Wise? Question.

I just, you know, I followed her story closely. I think there's a lot of parallels. You know, she famously wrote, Twitter's not on the masthead of the New York Times, but I might get the quote a little wrong, but they're certainly kind of driving the policy and content, and that was so comparable to my story, you know? It was this Twitter mob,

demanding my ousting and hashtag boycott Levi's and all of this. And I just thought she was, the right person. I think she's amazing. I think she's making a, there are a few people that are stepping away from, I don't know, the play. Well, I think outside of the binary, they're stepping outside of the binary, whether it's the political binary. I mean, I think it's funny that she's always filled as this like right, all right. I mean, she's not. She's not at all. And so I, yeah, It just seemed, and she's been amazing and supportive and wanted to tell the story. And I just felt like we were of like minds, you know.

So let's go into, because you've talked about it in your book, let's go into woke capitalism. Sure. What it is and the lie that you now think it is. Yeah, in many ways it's illustrated by that campaign that you hated. Right. I think there's a lot of things going on. I think the first is it is corporate America's attempt to profit off of Gen Z activism, Gen Z and millennial activism, right?

They're trying to kind of, I know that's a cynical take, but it's factually correct. That's part of what capitalism is to either create a need in you or to exploit a need. you already have. Right. So, you know, they're not even exploiting a need. They're exploiting a value, which is kind of gross, I think. So that's part of it. I think there's this other piece, which is, you know, for many, many years,

it was assumed that corporate leaders were Republicans, right? They were greedy and greed was good. And now, really, a lot of corporate leaders, and some of the biggest industries are Democrats. And, I mean, it really is the party of elite. And you have, you know, tech led by the left. And, you know, even Goldman Sachs is waving their arms around being woke. I mean, it's banking for God.

Yeah, I know. I say, I used to hate things like Blade Runner where, you know, the bad guys worked for the corporation, which was the government. And I used to think, come. come on so this is what this is it they they don't want to be the bad guy right but the left was right you were right you were right you got it right you got it you nailed it we were wrong you were right and we're like now we're like wait a minute you the bad guys and they don't recognize it or they it's so weird it is so bizarre it's very bizarre and so there's this

real desire for these leaders to distance themselves from the, you know, robber barons of the past, from the greed is good of the past, and to say, no, I'm a good person. I'm a philanthropy. I would have been in philanthropy or I'm an altruist. I just happen to make billions of dollars, which never happens on accident. Let's be clear. They're just as greedy as the ones that came before them. and they have their children who they've sent to these very woke elementary schools and high schools and colleges and they want to impress them. There's this new dynamic between parents and children's children. I'm your friend, not your parent. And it also serves as a cover, although I do think I believe in my heart of hearts they do believe it about themselves.

Like it might, I think they come to believe it about themselves. You have to or you recognize or you're recognizing that you are. you are the evil you say you're trying to destroy there's there's a yes there's a cognitive dissonance that is too big I think for you have to convince yourself your own I think that's right and that's why it is quite convincing because they really believe it but at the end of the day there is a real disconnect and dissonance because what does still matter most is making money and you know I'll give you an example during COVID Levi's we laid off the 15% of our workforce, perhaps required, right?

The business, it was tough out there. It was hard to run a business. Same time period, the CEO cashes in $43 million of stock. Tell me it wasn't just about the money because those layoffs bolstered the stock price. The socially just thing would have been to find a way to keep people employed, possibly demand the world open up so that we could keep people employed. So that's why I say I think they believe it Because deep down they also know they're going for the money

And they don't want it to be exposed But I think you're Why that's true The thing that I think we're missing here on this conversation Is the fact that They've added There's there's I don't know who has added But there's another level to this this delusion

And that is some people know more than other people. So if they're part of the decisions and we're all going woke, we're better than these people. So making money, yes, but we're making things so

much better in the long run. The ends justify the means. But it just, yes, I'm not arguing any of that. I agree with that. I think they also, I believe that somewhere in their brains, they still kind of maybe know. I'll give you another example.

When I wrote a formal proposal in October of 2020 saying, let's take a stand on this. We've done taking stands on all sorts of things, as I'm sure you know. Let's write an op-ed from Levi's in the local paper. Like, we're a big business in this town. We can make a difference and influence. The response back was we can't, we'll look bad. Our kids are in private.

It'll make executives look bad because our kids go. So it's like it will reveal, that we are really elitist. I'm like, first of all, who doesn't think you are? I mean, everybody knows you said you're, I'm the weirdo sending me to public school. No one's assuming you're not. Right.

And why is it bad to say, my kids go to private? I want the same thing for every child in San Francisco. But it was sort of very revealing. That's like being in the Carnegie organization and being against when he decided to build libraries and all of the poor towns all across America. Right. We can buy our own books.

Everybody knows. Everybody knows you are so wealthy you can do this. This is doing good for the people who can't. Yes. But it revealed the lie, which is ultimately it's all about reputation laundering, these stances. You know, and I think it's laundering of reputation so that, hey, don't look over here. We're still taking all the money. And it works so well that even when they lay off 15% of the work, workforce. They say they're doing it with empathy and everybody's like, oh, thank you. Thank you. So how does, I think one of the reasons why they attack so viciously and relentlessly is because they

know it's a house of cards. That's right. Right? That's what I was going to say. Yeah. So if there's someone that threatens to reveal the lie, they've got to be destroyed. You're a, apostate your hair. There's a like, come on, we're all in the, you know, they don't say it, but like, come on, you know, I know, you know, like, let's do this and we get our big bonuses and we've got to lay these people off so that we can get our bonuses so that the stock, you know, continues to go up. It's like an unspoken pact and I think that my quitting and not accepting the money was so astonishing because no one gives up the money. I know. What lunatic gives up the money? when I walked out the last thing

Roger Ailes said to me when I walked out they were offering you know more than my million I'm sure the world and he said you're not going to leave you're not going to leave he said no one leaves here

exactly and he had always called me Jack Parr and I said hmm I would have thought you would have understood because one guy who did leave was Jack Parr. And that was the first moment.

I saw the fear in his eyes of, this guy's leaving. He's really leaving. Yeah. They don't get it. No. But there's... Because they've already sold their soul.

That's right. And they can't even fathom or imagine that somebody else would do different. And that makes them hate you even more, I think. Oh, God. Yeah, you've, like, I keep thinking about what they're saying to themselves now. They're like, see, we were right. She is hoarse. Yeah, yeah.

She wasn't with us. She wouldn't keep our secrets. Right. She didn't care most about the money, first and foremost. We say we care about the other stuff, but let's be honest, guys, we all know what we really care about as the money. She didn't. She's evil. She's a heretic.

She has to go. So how do we break this? Because this is, this is, it's destroying our nation. I mean, the, the, the, the, the, the, smartest things that the Uber, Uber left, those who hate everything America stands for, the smartest thing they did was get into the boardroom. Yeah. You know, they got in and they infiltrated everything.

Once they got into the boardroom, everything changed because even I buy Apple products and I hate myself for it. I'd really do what they're doing in China and the Uyghurs. it's inexcusable what they just did with turning off the air what do you call it you know where you download to a friend just through the air drop airdrop in China it's crazy evil it's crazy evil but how do you break it how do you get out of it because it's everything yeah it's also proof that you know consumers don't really care right like Levi's is thinking they're taking all these stances because that's going to you know that's aligned with these young people's values they don't

care they still buy nikes they still buy apple um none of them care they don't they don't actually care they like to pretend that they do um and it's it's true on the right as well you know they burn their nikes and then they go back to buying nikes the next week they burn them because of conge well a lot too brand is doing fun one of the biggest things i think conservatives wrestle with is do you still have Disney Plus? Do you still take your kids to Disneyland? I mean, if you are really, morally, this is wrong. But what else do I do?

You can say, I don't want the old stuff. I mean, I don't want the new stuff. I just want the old stuff. But it's still feeding the same beast. So what do you think they do? What are they doing? I think they hold out as many times as they possibly can. and then still take their kids to Disneyland, you know?

Yeah. I mean, there's, like, I don't give up my Apple product because it would dramatically change my life. Sneakers don't change my life. Levi's don't change my life. At my age, with my kids' age, Disney doesn't change my life. Right. But if I had little kids, it would be extraordinarily hard.

Yeah. And I don't understand, I mean, I do because I understand history, people call this woke capitalism. You call it woke capitalism. And I'd like to... It's a shortcut for me, yeah. Okay. Because it's actually fashion.

It is the definition of fascism. It is, absolutely. And I have written at length about this. And, you know, the issue now, and we've seen it writ large during COVID is corporations either directly or indirectly are furthering or colluding with, government to further their message. It is grotesque. And, you know, we've seen now with Twitter that it's direct with the Twitter files being published, although we kind of knew before, there's literally direct communication from government operatives to Twitter saying, take these people

down. They cannot say these things. My own husband has been banned from Twitter for saying the following. Are you ready? The vaccines have known side effects, myocarditis, blood clots and strokes. That's a fact. Just read the Pfizer documentation. He then offered an opinion, which said, that is not my idea of, quote, unquote, safe, banished. I think close to a year now. Still not back.

Whether or not he has a lawsuit that's active with two other men who were kicked off for similar reasons. So you have direct communication, but. I would argue that the alignment is so tight. There doesn't even need to be direct communication. It just happens. Now, with Levi's in particular, there are family connections to Gavin Newsom. There are family Democratic office holders. So there are direct connections.

But I don't even think there has to be a direct communication. There's just they're like this. They're in lockstep. And that is the definition of fascism. I said at one point got a lot of heat, at one point that there would be a caliphate, and you would see communist, Marxists, capitalists, and Islamists all working together to forward this. And they all said, oh, conspiracy theory, blah, blah, blah. They'll never work together.

Are you a conspiracy theory? Yeah, I know. And I was very, very clear working. together doesn't mean they call each other. That's right. They're in lockstep. This is good for us. That's right.

They're going that way. Let's go. Yes. And I would add to that the press is also in lockstep. And I think, you know, what we're watching now with Sam Bankman-Fried and FTCS is really illustrative. Will he go to, will he pay at all for this? I don't know.

And even today, when we see the fraud and what appears to be obvious, criminality. He's on stage at the New York Times Deal Book Summit last week with Andrew Ross Sorkin. People are saying, oh, he asked tough questions. No, he didn't. He giggled. The guy got like a standing ovation or at least like a round of applause for his aweshocks. I didn't do fraud to anyone.

And, you know, the press's glowing articles about him for the last two years is why he avoided any scrutiny for so long. He says it himself. He says, we take these. stances so people like us. He said the quiet part out loud. He said it to a Vox reporter who by the way he thought was in on the pact. She's one of it. Like I can say this to her. Now obviously she doesn't have the kind of money he had, but he still thought of her in the same. I imagine. That's why he said it, right? The last questions were way over time already. I can talk with you. Would you come

back again? This is not the last question. Would you come back again? I would love It's a lot. If I'm listening to this and I'm like, okay, I know, I know, I know, I know. What do we do? I didn't answer that part. What do we do? Goodness. I really am at a little bit of a loss, but I just will not stop talking about it.

I mean, I think most people are followers. I think we've learned. And we'll do whatever the group is doing. They would rather stand with the group than stand apart and alone and do the right thing. But that means we can bring them around. That's the good news is we can. And if you have a few outspoken, brave people who are willing to keep saying it and make it make sense. And despite the opprobrium and name calling, keep going, it happens slowly and then all at once.

Now, they don't, if they come over and say, yeah, this is wrong, the 65% of the American. who are quiet right now or confused. They don't really, they'll believe the next thing too. Yeah, yeah. But it doesn't matter. We can bring them along. You know, it happened to me in gymnastics. It was, I was vile and hated, and suddenly, 10 years later,

they pretended they always stood with me. They didn't. I got the emails, you know. I also think that companies, look, I'm the first real insider that's come forward, but other people are going to do it. to do it. They're going to think twice about this. There are, I have no doubt there are conversations happening. How do we avoid this PR nightmare in the future? Now, they might decide that the way they avoided is make everybody sign something that says you won't be active

on social media. That would not be the outcome I would want. But that's a real possibility. I don't know. I think what, I think your solution of, you know, courage is contagious. Contagious. And for the 65%, you know, there's always 19 to 20%. I think the far, far, I hate everything about America is less than 20%. And it's not going to get, it's, well, I think it's less than, I think it's less than, I think it's less than 10 on either side.

I hope you're right. I hope you're right. But 20% changes to the world. There's a tipping point. And if those who wake up who truly value the Bill of Rights, and because at this point, that's all I want to preserve for my kids. That's all I want to preserve for my kids. It's a lot.

Constitution Bill of Rights, let them be free. If those who believe that, even if we disagree on absolutely everything else, would come together, that's when this will happen. Because there's still this divide of trust. I'm not sure if I trust you. You wouldn't be on the show if I didn't know you believed in the Bill of Rights. But that's what has to happen. We have to come together with people that make us a little afraid of.

I don't want to necessarily be on their side. You know what I mean? But do we join here? Yeah. And not that I don't want to be. I'm with you 100%. No, I'm not afraid of, look, I have met every sort of conservative in the last few months that I was told, you know, was evil. And that is, I've found to have amazing conversations.

And I have easily found the commonality with no struggle whatsoever. And that's what has to happen. I've had the same thing with people who, you know, were I thought Mark. as professors. Interesting. That are fantastic. We love each other. Yeah.

I mean, I guess I feel like, you know what? You may be fine with this, you know, for me, COVID is what brought it all to the four. And you may have been fine with that. But guess what? You're next. You're not going to agree with everything. I guess if enough people get canceled, then we can all live on canceled. And we can be the big voice that.

kind of pushes back. It's going to be enough people one day. It's kind of my theory on the border. I say leave the border open, let everybody from Mexico come here. Then at night, we'll go there. We get the beaches. It's a good strategy. It just seems like the group will keep growing and growing and growing and you can't cancel everybody. And that we on canceled island find the commonality because we're forced to. And we just become a bigger and bigger force over time. And I mean, look, even in China, they're protesting now. You can push people too far. It's possible.

What are you doing now? What's next? Well, I spent the summer writing this book. I wrote it in like two months in a fever dream. It's hard, isn't it? It's really hard. But I recommend doing it that way instead of dragging it out for five years. Just get it done.

I'm making a documentary film about the impact to kids from the prolonged school closure. for you. And it's going well. We're probably 80% filmed. Probably won't get an Emmy for this one. I probably won't. That's okay. You know what I will say is I do think that some folks are trying really hard to kind of distance themselves from having either been silent or advocated for closures. I mean, even Fauci is, right? He says I had nothing to do with it. So we may find some brave streamer who wants to distance themselves and put the film on. And then I mean, I'm going to figure out what to I actually have had corporate offers. I'm a little hesitant right now, but one day. Good for you. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. God bless. Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.