The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 168 | 'The Only Jesus Show My Kids Will Actually Watch' | Dallas Jenkins | The Glenn Beck Podcast

Episode Date: December 17, 2022

Dallas Jenkins is changing the world by telling the greatest story of all time in a completely new way. “The Chosen” makes you feel like you’ve been dropped into the 1st century A.D. with all the social and political tension of Israel under Roman control, and it’s won over countless fans who never thought they’d be this excited to watch a “Jesus show.” And its unconventional style is paying off. On this episode of "The Glenn Beck Podcast," Dallas gives an insider’s look at “The Chosen” as season 3 begins, including the story of casting Jesus, the incredible experiences that he’s witnessed on-set, and the twists and turns he’s planning for future seasons (FOUR of them!) as he explores the humanity of often one-dimensional characters like Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, and Judas Iscariot. He also shares what the show has taught him about his own relationship with Christ. Because as the son of "Left Behind" author Jerry B. Jenkins, he feels as though he’s been similarly chosen to spread the Gospel in a unique way.   SPONSORS: Preborn is completely dependent on YOU, the pro-life community, as the company fights the giants. For just $28, you can rescue a baby’s life. Or, $140 sponsors five ultrasounds! And now, through a match, your gift is doubled. 100% of your donation will go toward saving babies. Our goal is to save 50,000 Blaze Babies. Will you join us? To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword “BABY” or donate securely at https://preborn.com/GLENN   Christmas is right around the corner, so give the best meal in America, support local S.S. farms, and head on over to https://GOODRANCHERS.COM/GLENN to get $35 off your essential gift with my code, “GLENN”   When you buy Grip6 Socks, you’re supporting the American ranchers who raise specialty-bred sheep that produce modern wool, you’re putting your trust and hard-earned money in a company that does it right, making American-made products with American labor. Go to https://grip6.com/BECK Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's never too early to plan your summer story in Europe with WestJet, from rolling countryside to cobblestone streets. Begin your next chapter. Book your seat at westjet.com or call your travel agent. WestJet, where your story takes off. Today's guest is the creator, the co-writer, the executive producer, and the director of the chosen. it's I think it's the best TV show on there on online on television it is by far the best story of Jesus Christ I've seen in my lifetime because it's so incredibly different and you see the story in a way you've not seen before there is no shortage of hokey Jesus movies that somehow find a way to be too preachy or botts. the greatest story ever told.

Usually a PG version that completely skips over the violence that Christ endured, or just the general living condition. Just the white robes. I mean, I do believe it was dusty, at least. If you're Mel Gibson, maybe you miss the opposite reason and you show the brutality of it all, but it also kind of misses the kindness. The chosen breaks both of these.

It has a chance to because it's episodic. It has two years going on its third season now. It does something that no other depiction of Christ has ever done. It shows him laughing and smiling, joking, dancing. But what makes the chosen so impressive is that it is a great piece of art in the same way. that, you know, the Sopranos, the Godfather is a good piece of art. Kind of the opposite of those, but it's beautiful. It began with a short video on Facebook and then grew into the largest ever crowdfunding campaign for a media project.

It aired online for free using a pay it forward model. An app for the chosen skyrocketed popularity on both iOS and Android. And around that time, I had today's guest on the podcast. Just a few days, I think it was before Easter. That Sunday, 750,000 people live streamed the season two premiere. From there, The Chosen has grown exponentially. From streaming on YouTube and Facebook to ranking fourth in shows searched on Roku, before long, it had half a billion episode views from all around the world. It hasn't even been translated yet. It got picked up by NBC's Peacock and Prime Video and earlier this year it was added to Netflix. Season 3 debuted last month in over 2,000 theaters worldwide. It had, I believe, 14 million tuning in. It will be dubbed into 100 languages,

subtitled into 500, and there are still four seasons to go. This unparalleled growth is miraculous, and it comes at a time when intellectuals are pushing the narrative that Christianity is dead and atheism is our future. As the Apostle Paul wrote, the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved, it is the power of God. The chosen is a much needed reminder that Christ is alive and encouraging us to walk with him in the newness of life.

Today on the Glenbeck podcast, welcome Dallas Jenkins. What a perfect message for today's podcast. I want to talk to you about pre-born. You know, in Luke chapter one, it's not the Jesus birth story. It's actually the story of John the Baptist and his marriage. birth. He was the one that came before the Lord to till the ground and prepare the way. If you believe in that and you believe the Bible, it just continually repeats. It just shows us patterns to look for. I think that means that the children that are being born now and

in these days may very possibly be the John the Baptist preparing the way I think there's going to be lots of them that's why it is so crucial

that we pay attention to what is happening with abortion all of these babies do you know this audience has saved 40, 45 or 46,000 babies you name them

They live today because this audience sent in some money so these women could have ultrasounds. And that was the key to saving their life. 47,000. Holy cow. For $28 right now you can rescue a baby's life. $140 sponsors five ultrasounds. That could be five babies. And now through a match, your gift will be doubled.

100% of your donation is going to go towards saving babies. Our goal is to save 50 on the Blaze, 50 on my program. That's 100,000 babies. Please dial pound 250, say the keyword baby. That's pound 250, keyword baby, or donate securely at preborn.com slash glen. Season three of The Chosen is out. Here's the trailer. troubled. I am. You're losing something. I know what that's like. What are you losing?

Time. I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Someone touched me. If you are really the one who is to come, or should we look for someone else? Go and tell John what you hear and see. Who is it? Where did we stop? It's him. I'm Judas of Keriot. I have chosen you 12 as my apostles. Don't feel any different? I don't need you to feel anything to do great things.

What is stirring in your hearts, middle of such division and unrest, is Father God being revealed to you. For who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. This prophecy must. Stop. renounce your words we will have no choice but to follow the law of moses here for jesus of nazareth we are still and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock who caused their hunger he who has ears to hear let him hear

how are you dallas i'm good i'm glad to be here it's so good to have you um you know i was singing before the interview i was I was thinking about it yesterday. And I thought, I remember interviewing your father on the left behind. I don't think it's a stretch to say in my lifetime, because I wasn't born with Cecil B. DeMille. Right. But in my lifetime, I believe you and your father have preached the gospel in a different way and hit more people probably than anybody else that I know. You've done remarkable things.

You ever thought of that? Do your dad ever think about that? Well, my dad right now is too busy finding new buttons for his shirt because it keeps, his shirts keep bursting. He's very, very proud, obviously. It's been fun to watch. We occasionally sit there and go, what is happening? How is this possible that this would happen?

It was 25 years ago that the first left behind books came out. And that's, what was it? 60 million copies? Yeah, 60, 70 million, something like that, yeah. For whatever reason, we don't know this side of heaven, why, but God seems to have chosen my dad and 25 years ago and now me to deliver the story of Jesus to the world in a unique way, but that's still faith.

to the intentions of the scriptures. And it's a, you know, it's something that I'm, I feel like I got a good front row seat on the bus to watch it happen. But I, because I don't think I'm responsible for it. I just get a chance to watch it happen. It's pretty cool. It is, it's just the best Jesus prediction. I mean, a depiction I've ever seen.

It is a remarkable series. And the only Jesus thing that my children will actually. actually sit down and watch with me. It's so accessible. The Jesus you picked to play Jesus is so different than I think most Jesus. He looks different, he talks differently,

and why did you pick him? It was about seven or eight years ago when the chosen actually first had its birth pangs, which was part of a big church that I was part of in Chicago. We had huge Good Friday services. We would do every good Friday we'd have about seven or eight services, several thousand people apiece would come. And I did a short film.

It was called The Two Thieves, and it was about the crucifixion, but from the perspective of the two thieves on the cross. And I was casting the two thieves who were the main characters. Jesus doesn't show up in the short film until the end, when they're on the cross and they meet him. and so Jonathan Rumi, who now plays Jesus in The Chosen, he auditioned for one of the thieves and did a great job,

but there were two other guys who were really good, and the people who were auditioning for Jesus were really bad. And I'm like, I know this is a supporting role in this short film, but he's got to be good. We need a good Jesus. And I said, that Jonathan guy seemed to have a good tenderness about him that I think would be interesting. So he auditions for Jesus for my little short,

film and 10 seconds into it, I saw what you see now. Yeah, yeah. Something, there's something special. Yeah. And I was like, it's kindness. Yes, but with masculinity, it's not, it's not like a weak, kind of passive wallflower kindness that you sometimes see in Jesus portrayals where he's so formal and, and, you know, distant and soft.

So he's your best friend and a fierce lion at the same time. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And as we say in Chronicles and our. He's not a tame line. But all that to say, we then, I shot this short film.

It was in a rock quarry in Illinois, almost as cold as it is in this studio right now. And he, and there was about five minutes of screen time where he's on the cross and I'm just like, my goodness, we got to do more of this. So each year, each Good Friday, I would bring him back and we would do vignettes.

and it was always short films of vignettes, stories of Jesus, but from different perspectives, honoring the scriptures, but seeing it through different lens. And that's where we were kind of formulating, I think, some of, we were finding it. That was where we first, I did a Jesus joke. A couple, there was a short film I did

where Jesus is with the disciples, and the disciples are arm wrestling. And Andrew defeats Thadius, which is a surprise to the disciples. And one of the disciples says, I can't believe Andrew won. And Jesus says, even I didn't see that coming.

And I saw, when we showed that short film in the church, the response to Jesus telling a joke and to being funny and even a joke about his own divinity, the response was this response of like, it was laughter, but it was almost like gratitude.

Like, oh, and I had people coming out to me saying, thank you for showing Jesus as someone who would have fun. He was a man. He was, yeah, who would have hang with his disciples, that they would make a joke like that. And that's when it was, again, like, there's something there. And so when it came time, the opportunity came to do the show.

Obviously, Jonathan was the first one that I cast. His life has had to have changed. Oh. I mean, it, and it, I mean, it has to be a heavy man. mantle, just walking around, people will see him and he's not Jesus, but he is Jesus. And I can't imagine what his life is like. He's wrestling with it. I bet.

Yeah. He has a good centered head on his shoulders. He's a believer. He knows that this is not, I mean, I think the thing that's most uncomfortable for him is the fact that he's not Jesus. Right. when he gets recognized, the first thing people say is, Jesus. You know, now they know he's not Jesus too. But there are some people for whom this portrayal in the show has changed their life.

I mean, I experience it. When I get recognized in an airport or whatever, people don't treat me like a celebrity. They come up and they start crying. Yeah. And they just want to say thank you. Yeah. And they'll say my life has changed or my relationship with my dad has changed or my kids are for the first time. you know, considering Jesus because of, so now that's just me.

Think about it when they meet the guy who's playing him, and sometimes they have a hard time separately. Yeah, I know. And so he gets it. He knows the difference between him and Jesus, but he does wrestle with being recognized and being treated the way that he's treated sometimes. I know Jim Caviesel quite well.

Have they talked? They haven't. They have a lot of mutual friends, and eventually it's going to happen, Jonathan has said eventually that we'll meet and the meeting of Jesus. Yeah, and the world will collide. There'll be some sort of cosmic disaster perhaps or it'll be awesome. But either way.

I know that played heavy, heavy on Jim for a long time. Yeah. But I think that part of, I think there is a difference between us and the passion of the Christ too in that I think there is in the chosen because of the multi-season format and the time that we take. I do think that Caviesel might have experienced even more of what Jonathan is experiencing because Passion of the Christ was so, I mean, it was about, yeah, it was so big and epic. And Jonathan's portrayal as we do it, there is a humanity there that makes them a little bit more

accessible. I think when people see Jim, sometimes there's almost a reverence. Whereas with Jonathan, it was just the last part. Right, right. And Mel's filmmaking style, again, very dramatic. is beautiful. Mine is a little bit more I don't know of raw is the right word.

I don't know. Your filmmaking is absolutely stunningly beautiful. Well, thank you. Thank you. But I think, but I would say it's probably more because of the smallness of it.

I'm not trying to do a big epic like Mel was. For me it's about the humanity, the small moments, the rawness of it. So when people see Jonathan, there's almost, there's an accessibility. Yeah. Where they're like, they want to come up and hug him. Yeah.

You know, and that's, that's been interesting. The other thing that you did that I, I love, and I, I don't know if I've ever really seen it before, at least portrayed as well as you have done it. The apostles are not apostles, you know what I mean? They're not, they're not the apostles that you expect. Right. There was a scene last season, it was towards the end, where Jesus is just nonstop healing. and you feel so bad for Jesus because he's there by himself,

drained, and they're having this normal conversation, not really paying attention, not really, not doing what apostles would do, you would think, and even arguments back and forth, they have no clue

as to what they're dealing with. Right. Yeah. Why that choice? Yeah, so it's a great question. So that was episode, three of season two. It's based on Matthew 424,

which it said Jesus was healing all kinds of people, just lines of people coming from Syria and Damascus. So instead of showing all the healing, I take you backstage. And so we spent time with the disciples, and

it's still early in the ministry. So they're wrestling with all this. So he's the Messiah? Why haven't we overthrown the Romans yet? What's that about? Why did he choose me? I'm not a student, like typical rabbi-rabid rabbinical students. I was a fisherman. And so they're wrestling with all of that.

Well, one thing leads to another and they start arguing. And in the midst of their argument, like where the argument reaches a height. Because again, think about this, Matthew was a tax collector. Jews hated tax collector. They were betrayers of their people. Such a great depiction of him. Yeah. And even Jesus, when Jesus would speak of tax collectors, it wasn't positive.

and then you've got he's called as one of the followers and now he's living with and spending time with these other disciples who would have hated him so they're arguing and arguing and arguing and in the midst of the argument Jesus just walks by

he's been healing for probably eight hours there's blood on him pouring sweat powers drained out of him he can barely stand up his mother helps him into bed just beautiful well all he does is say good night

and they're all just like ugh you know like we so You know? Yeah. And so that's the answer.

Why that choice? I've been to Rome. I've been to, I'm not a Catholic, but I've been to Catholic basilicas. They're beautiful. I've seen the stained glass windows. I've seen the statues. There's something. Michelangelo.

Right. There's something to the reverence. But for me, it's like, yeah, I don't, they were human beings. They were guys. They screwed up. They were just like us. And I feel like seeing Jesus through the eyes of those who actually met him. and who had the same questions and doubts and struggles that we do today,

I want to communicate that the answer and the solution to those questions and struggles is the same today as it was 2,000 years ago. But if I don't show you the questions and the struggles and the humanity, then there's not much for you to connect with. And so then the answer isn't as connectable either. So what I hear from viewers is they go, that's me. Simon is me. Matthew is me.

And because of that, then when Jesus, heals their wounds, it's like, well, maybe he can heal mine too. Yeah. And you, it's interesting because you look at, you know, you talk about going to the Vatican, seeing the stained glass windows and everything else. And the majesty of that, people, I'll say at times, Jesus is my best friend. He is my best friend. And I just talk to him. You know what I mean? And I've had to. people look at me and go, he is the Lord of Lords, King of Kings. And I'm like, yeah, I know. And that has set me that there are two ways that we have to appreciate it. We must worship him

as a king on a throne and humble ourselves. But there is also the kindness that he has, you know? The thing that some people were skeptical of when the show first came out was, well, if you humanize him too much, like the episode three of season one where you see him making camp and dressing his own wound and making his own food and trying to start a fire and doing his bedtime prayer. There are some people who were like, well, the risk is you're taking away from his divinity. But he wouldn't have gone. and poof, start the fire. Exactly. And I believe, and I can say this pretty confidently because it's what we've heard from millions of people,

is that it not only doesn't detract from his humanity, if anything, it enhances it. It makes it even more impressive. It makes him more humble. Because you go, the creator of the universe is doing this. Became one of us. Yes.

He didn't sin, but he knows what we felt. He did what we did. he he he he he uh we even portray him as as like he that he was a clumsy teenager you know like he he didn't sin but he but he was a human being now the whole god man conundrum has vexed us for 2,000 years we will never understand it but we do know he laughed and danced at weddings with his friends the first miracle a year every did was a favor for his friends because his mom asked him to the phrase the term Emmanuel means god with us it's typically a Christmas term. That's typically right around this time of year.

We're talking about Emmanuel. It's not just a Christmas term. It means God with us. Why did he dress his own wounds and make his own food? Because God was with us. That is an extraordinary concept. And I think when that hits you and you go, that's a creator of the universe. And he hung out with his disciples

and was a human being. I think it makes it even more humbling. Oh, I agree. And then of course, as you know, it's even more of an example. It's more of a... It's the first being last. Yes. I mean, that is... You know, you've always heard well,

General Patton ate after all of his troops. Yeah. Jesus served us. I mean, that's crazy humbling. Crazy humbling. 60% of the vans on Amazon come to vander independent, like Sac Magic.

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I want to play a clip and this is an exchange between Jesus and Little James watch.

Master, Little James. May I have a moment? Of course. I am, forgive me, I'm not always confident to speak. Slow to speak. It's a very good quality.

I wanted to ask you a question. Please? So you're sending us out with the ability to heal the second lane. Yes, that is what you said. Yes. So you're telling me that I have the ability to heal. I'm able to imagine with my condition, which you haven't healed. Do you want to be healed?

Of course, if that's possible. I think you've seen enough to know what's possible. So the actor who plays Little James is as cerebral palsy and scoliosis, you know, his real life. So when I cast him, I knew I was eventually going to have to do this scene, which is one of the toughest questions that believers and non-believers have ever faced, which is why does he heal some and not others? Why does a good God allow suffering? So finally in season three, I was like,

I can't wait any longer because there's a scene, I shouldn't call it a scene, a passage in the Gospels where Jesus sends out the disciples two by two and they heal and they cast out demons and they preach the word. It's a temporary moment during the ministry where he grants him this authority. And I just thought, what would little James think of that?

He's being asked to heal others and yet he still has this malady. and so that question is one that I guess I had the craziness to try to answer. It was beautiful. What is it like on the set? Because there has to be moments like that, that it feels personal. Yeah. What is that like?

I would say that there's been about a dozen times where the character of Jesus in the show is one of two things, either asking someone to follow him or a character is quoting scripture. Like actually, because he's a lot of the content from, I mean, that scene that you just watch isn't directly from scripture, obviously. But every now and then there is.

They're actually saying words that were uttered in scripture. And almost without exception, when one of those two things happens, Jesus calling someone to follow him or they're quoting scripture. Something happens. Something emotional. I've had actors come up to me and say, I don't know what happened there. I just couldn't stop crying or I couldn't.

They have to walk away and kind of gather themselves. It happens enough times that it's no longer a surprise. And I think there's, I think it just speaks to the, you know, to the power of scripture, but also I think that even though we know these are actors and this is a, this is a portrayal, whether you believe or not whatever wherever you are in your in your relationship with Jesus

whether you have one or don't or whether you're in the middle of one or searching or not when you're faced with that choice it is an emotional experience dramatic whatever choice you make even if you reject even if you don't believe and if you dismiss you can't ignore it

and I feel like that's sometimes what happens on the set and it's again it's It's a very humbling thing because you go, gosh, we are not, this is not just a normal show where I can just do this and walk away from it and hope it turns out well. It's, we're doing, we're portraying something that we believe actually happened and, and literally change the world and continues to today. Everybody, a believer on set? Oh, I would, a majority aren't, I would say.

Aren't. Yeah, correct. But so over half our actors are not. They're not believers. Yeah. Or, I mean, it's a spectrum. you know, but, and a couple have become so since doing the show. But yeah, a lot of them, either an agnostic faith background,

but just love the show, love the, love the historical portrayal and find the stories very intriguing. And some believe that some of this may very well may have happened, maybe not necessarily ready to acknowledge Jesus as God, but, yeah, that's, I would say it's a majority of our cast. to end crew. Back with Dallas here in a second. I want to talk to you about a more earthly power that we all have.

We have so much power and we don't ever recognize it. Some of our power comes temporarily here. It matters how you spend your money when you're putting it out there and you're putting it out in the economy and what are we buying? What are we building with that money? We really need to rebuild our country. And every chance you get to buy American, and I mean real America, not like cars, American cars today are not made in America. They're assembled in America.

A lot of American manufacturing has slipped over the years. Trying to make clothes in America is almost impossible. However, there is somebody that is doing it. And I love partnering with these companies. The company I want to tell you about is Grip 6. They have decided that they are starting small, and they just want to make a wallet, some belts, and I think the best socks I've ever worn. This is a true American experience.

Everything comes from America all the way from the sheep and the wool, all the way to the end product. The ink, everything. It's Grip 6. You're supporting American ranchers. you're rebuilding our fabric-making ability here in America. It's an American business owned by Americans. It has some extra risk because it's in America and it stands for something. But I don't know.

As I stand, I like to know that I'm in American socks. Grip 6. Check them out now. Grip6.com slash Beck. Grip6.com slash Beck. You know, the thing about your portrayal here is that, and, you know, this is the way the Bible is, it just feels like today. Yeah. And I find it interesting, I assume you believe we're living in end of days, and the possibility at least exists that we'll see Christ.

It's interesting to me that your father laid the groundwork, and that felt right at the time. But now, if we are indeed approaching these days, it's not the fear. It's the strength and the empathy and the kindness of Christ. And I wouldn't have thought that, you know? Yeah, that's a really insightful point and question. Yeah, 25 years ago, it was like, it was almost like the left behind books where, I don't know if a warning is the right answer, but it's kind of like, hey, this is what the Bible is predicting, and we're starting to see some evidences of it. Pay attention.

Yeah. Not last call, but a call. Yeah. And now it's, there's so much of what was predicted happening. I mean, the division alone. I mean, you know this better than anybody. I mean, there's never been a time, perhaps in history, where literally just even,

even potentially agreeing with someone who might be on the team, on the other team, on anything is a... Forboten. Forboten, and you shouldn't do it, and if you do it, now you're no longer on your team. I mean, it is insane. And the world is seeming to explode.

Well, you don't really need to give a warning anymore that the world might explode. It's exploding. The question then has become as, well, how now shall we live? what is our responsibility in the midst of this. And you might think, well, we need to fight. We need to overthrow.

And that's what the Jews were saying at the time. Jesus came, all right, finally, you're here. The world's exploding. Do your thing. Heal us. Take over. And he went, oh, yeah, no, I'm not here to stop that. I'm here for your heart.

I'm here for the kingdom in your heart. I'm building a new kingdom and it's not what you think. And they didn't get it until his death and resurrection. I've been saying for the last probably year, maybe eight months really clearly, there's coming a time right now. It's right now. Where if you're not, if you haven't had a relationship with the Holy Spirit, I don't know if you're going to survive because you have to be guided by him.

And that we have to be more Christ-like. And it's amazing to me from Christians, they will say, what are we going to do about everything? And I'll say, read your scriptures and just live like Jesus wants you to live. And they'll say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that, but what are we going to do? And it's almost exactly the same thing. Yeah. They don't, we don't understand who we are. I don't know.

We know it's not going to continue this way. And yet we're trying to, I don't know how to express it. We're trying to live our way when that massive change is coming where we won't live like this at all. Yeah. I think, well, I think we have, even those of us who believe struggle with wanting to control. We want to impact the circumstances around us. And Jesus called us to do that, but not in the way we expect. And I think for you especially, I would imagine a lot of your viewers and listeners are going,

Glenn, you're a warrior. You've been fighting for us for so long. Fight. You're like, yeah, but it's a different kind of fighting. Yeah, Jesus was a warrior. Yeah. I mean, if that wasn't war that he went through, I don't know what it is. Right.

And it's just, it's just not the way you think. It's, it's, you know, I've, I've found that I've been approached on the street many times with people who just lose their mind and just like, come at me and rah! And, um, I have found a way to, through God, to actually love them and to, feel the hurt that somehow or another, I have made them feel. And I've just said to them, I love you. And you keep repeating that. And it, they don't, nobody knows how to fight that.

Because I'm not giving you any oxygen for the fire. Right. You know? Yeah. And that's, I mean, he talks. about the last time he first he talked about a kind word can is almost like keeping hot coals a fire on someone's head I mean the kind of fight that he did was just so different than what we how we see it and and and I think the question that we have to ask ourselves is okay so

what does victory look like and I think we think victory looks like overthrowing the government overthrowing our pressures overthrowing changing changing the society so that we are now in control. And, you know, again, we're libertarians. We know the danger of that. But Jesus flipped on its head, on its head, what victory looked like. And victory is, and that's even the clip that we just played, where Little James is saying, well, why haven't you healed me?

And Jesus says to him, yeah, it would be a good story for me to do a miracle. But there's lots of people who have that story. The greater miracle is you proclaiming me in spite of your, weakness, you finding joy in the midst of your circumstances. That's where Christians can truly impact societies to go, yeah, we get it. We're suffering too. We know. And some of the most joyous people we've met have been in third world countries who are living in dastardly circumstances, living in oppression and going, yeah, but I still have the joy. That's the victory. That's the battle to win. I was in Iraq. One night, they,

this church was the church in iraq is awesome awesome they were they were scheduled to be bombed to be bombed and killed at seven p.m. and i'm asking my guys are they still going and he's like yep they're going to be there so i went but i was like uh he moved i was like what these guys these families the children the dads the mothers joy full of joy and they were like if it happens it happens What a great way to live your life. They'll talk about it. They'll say, we had a wonderful bombing last week. And they're like, oh, what are you talking about?

They're like, oh, we're closer to God than ever before. Yeah. I mean, because they find God in the midst of challenge, and that's what true joy is versus happiness, which comes and goes. And yeah, we do that a lot in the show, too, of trying to show that it's actually through the trial, the pain that you actually feel closest to God. It's a hard truth to grasp. It takes a long time.

But that's, again, that's the victory that comes when you can actually get there. It becomes a superpower. There's a part in this season where Jesus says, you think it's hard to follow me now. You haven't seen anything yet. And that was,

one of those moments where I feel like, wow, that's, that's today. Can you, can you talk about, a little bit about how, what you hope people get from watching

this, and not just from Jesus, but from the apostles on, you think it's tough. You're going to be crucified upside down. You know. Yeah, yeah.

What do you? Yeah, well, so there's a, this is the scene that you're referencing is in episode two of season three where it's the scene where he officially calls him. He officially says, you're my apostles. So we sometimes get those terms mixed up. Disciples, Jesus had many disciples, hundreds that followed him around. But the apostles were the 12 that he said, you're my leaders, you're going to go out and apostles means the one who's sent. And so he gathers them all in Simon's house and says, you're right, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're. my guys, you're the official 12 and you're my apostles and they're like, whoa, you're sending us?

He says, yes, we starts telling them, you're going to go out, you're going to preach, you're going to heal, you're going to cast out demons, but you're actually not going to take any money, you're not going to take anything to wear, you're going to go out there without me. And they're like, whoa, wait a minute, we've been with you and we've seen you when you do these things and you get attacked, you get threatened by our leaders. You're sending us out there without you. How are we going to do this? And he's like, well, you need to learn to not fear those who may kill the body, destroy the body, but it's more about the soul.

And John, the apostle says, you're saying we could die? And there's this moment where Jesus has, in the show has this, like he, and Jonathan, the actor and I talked about this, he's like, I see the future, but I can't communicate it to them just yet.

They need to have it kind of delivered in small pieces. So you see his face change and he's very sad, but he says, there will come a time. when you face the kind of persecution that I'm facing. And then you will know what it truly means to give up your life. But that's not on this trip.

You know, on this trip, it'll feel different. And we've heard from so many people who've seen that scene who felt personally convicted about their own, like they're like, well, he's called me to be sent and for me to sacrifice and me to be willing to give up my life if necessary. And that's the most affirming thing. I can ever hear about the show is when people say, oh, that scene was for me as much as it was for them. That takes the apostles off of stained glass windows.

That takes them down from the statues where they're standing there regally and makes, you go, oh, I'm that, I'm him. I'm her. And that's, that's my, that's the favorite thing that I ever hear from, from viewers is when there's a connection to that. And it's, it's not, you know, in Sunday school, growing up, you know, you sometimes see Jesus portrayed on a flanagraph. and he's wearing the white robe and he's smiling. And he's perfectly white. Yes, exactly. He didn't live in the first century.

He's got to have some clone on of some sort as well. It's clearly being laundered every couple hours out in the desert. But the chosen, the theme of season three has come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. We don't skip over the weary and heavy laden part. And season three is a tough, tough season because we portrays the kinds of things. that we face today that we know they face then and jesus doesn't erase it all he just is present well christmas is right around the corner which means you're probably tearing your hair out trying to figure out oh wait who did we forget if you have somebody on your list that's hard to shop for

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Embarked and profited. Embarked and relax. Syrotay, bookine, oh, that also. And profite. Villaray, the voice that we love. I think this is like perfect timing, at least for me, when where I am in my view of things. But what's must be strange for you,

you know, when Lucille Ball had her baby, first time anyone was pregnant, first time baby was going to be born. 70% of every television, every person that had a television, 70% of them were watching that night. I knew what it was like at Fox was not, you know, it was 3 million a night. There's something about that because you can feel it. this is spilling out into people's lives all the time. Yeah. How does,

how do you, how do you react to that? How is what, because this feels right this year to me. Yeah. But it might hit somebody four years down the road. Oh, sure. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So when we, when we launch each of our episodes right now, season three coming out each Sunday night, you know, Sunday night, seven o'clock, Eastern, we, we have a big live stream on YouTube,

Facebook and the chosen app. and it's all at once and we get, you know, a couple hundred thousand people show up for that. But 99% of our viewers are watching this over the course of multiple years. And there's still plenty of people

who all run into who go, hey, you know, you're downshadians, the creators of chosen, yeah, yeah. And they're like, I just started season one. Yeah.

And I'm like, oh yeah, season one. That was like, I've made that four years ago. It came out a year and a half ago. The season one just debuted on Netflix a couple weeks ago and it's going really well on Netflix.

And so, I mean, and it's translated into 25 languages on Netflix. So there's people all over the world discovering it. And that's the weird thing about it is they're talking about how I was so moved by, and I'm assuming they're going to mention something that I just did. And they're like, when Jesus redeems Mary in a bar, and I'm like, oh, that's episode one season one. Oh, yeah, that's right. Okay.

I got to refresh my memory. But yeah, yeah, this is a living, breathing, constantly changing. It's almost movies changed when the videotape you know came out and they could have that

extra life television's always been television and you know when the DVD came out I guess you know some shows but now this is almost like music it is

yeah that's a good point it just lives at any time anywhere in the world and will continue to affect for decades. Well, and right now, we're only reaching the tip of the iceberg

when it comes to the show expanding around the world because we just established a new partnership with a nonprofit that's going to be raising, and it already has, hundreds of millions of dollars to translate it into hundreds of languages.

And so what's happening in the states with the shows and is starting to happen in, I mean, it's starting to really blow up in Brazil, the Philippines, Philippines, India, there's places where it's starting to grow. We're trying to catch up with it. I mean, it's growing bigger than we can keep up with it. And they're going, to your

point, they're going, we just saw season one, which we had it, we had translated a couple years ago. They're like, all right, season two, translation. And I'm going, hey, the translation takes longer to do than it does to watch. Like, like this is hard and there's hundreds of languages, but it's growing and the demand for it

is growing so big. We're trying to keep up with it and we're establishing an international team and trying to get it out there. But the other thing that's interesting to your point is, and this is also like music, how many times have you heard the same song that you love or that has spoken to you? And sometimes being a father now, a song has huge meaning compared to what it did when you were a teenager. Oh, sure, yeah. And so we have people who say, I, people who will say to me, I watch the scene of Jesus and Mary, or I watch the scene of Jesus healing the paralytic

or Jesus calling Matthew once a month or I just watched it again for the 50th time because it comforts me or brings me so much like they need to see it again to remind them of who Jesus is and that's really cool too when unlike television back then when Lucy Ball had her baby

you watched it. You didn't get a chance to see it again unless it was maybe in a rerun during the summer and then that was it. Yeah. So that's, I think this show is uniquely positioned for such a time as this because it can, it can heal people repeatedly.

And yes, and build, yeah. And even because the seasons, this is the third time we've watched the chosen start to wherever you are. Because the seasons take a while and then when you have the new season, we're back watching it from the beginning. Yeah, you want to kind of

Yeah. The portrayal of the women on the path, and thank you for your portrayal of Mary Magdalene. I think she's, I think she gets slighted and not a lot. And I think she was most likely a really truly remarkable woman as you portray. And the actress who plays her,

Elizabeth is a miracle. Yeah. You've shown it, I think, once. I'm trying to remember the woman who is traveling. Her father was like,

wait, you're going to go out on the road. I can't remember. Yeah, Rima is the name of the character. She's not from scripture, but she's right. Yeah, she's matched with Thomas, the apostle.

And so they're, traveling that did not happen i mean it happened in the scriptures yeah but back then that was unheard of right yeah so women back then were um property may be too strong of a word uh but they they their fathers controlled their lives including who they who they married and um and so then when they were married, then they belonged to their husbands in a sense. But when you read the Gospels, there's some things that you can pick up on

that are pretty surprising. One is there were women who followed Jesus, traveled with them, and actually supported the ministry. Right. Because the disciples, they gave up their jobs to become official rabbinical students.

That's what would happen when you would follow a rabbi. You'd give up everything and you'd follow the rabbi. Well, a woman wouldn't be an official. official rabbinical student, but she still followed Jesus wanted to be around, the ministry wanted to be around the sermons. So they had the jobs. So when we, when people talk about our portrayal of women in the show, and they talk about how we honor them and give them strength, and I'm like, yeah, but that's, that's not as, that's not as anti, that's not as against type as,

as you might have expected. Now, to your question, Rima, who plays, who's, who's, who's, who's, who's, the daughter of a man named Kofny, who was at the, in our portrayal, the wedding at Kana. This is episode five of season one is when we meet her. She and Thomas are the caterers, the wine providers for the wedding. And they see this miracle.

And so they want to follow Jesus. Well, the father of Rima has to give permission. She can't just leave the house and go off. A, it wouldn't be safe, but B, even in Jewish law, like she would have been living outside of the authority of her, of her father.

So it's been a really cool way for us to explore some of that by showing just how big of a deal that would have been. And so, yeah, her character, her father, especially, who's not a believer, who finds even Jesus to potentially be blasphemous. But we portray it as though Jesus did a miracle that saved his business. And so he's kind of like, all right, I feel like, my daughter really wants to follow you. I'm going to allow this. Thomas, you better keep her saved.

Jesus, you better take care of her. So we portray some of those kind of family dynamics. And the Gophiles talk about that. They say, I will cause division in your household. You may, you know, there may be even hatred within your family because following me actually takes precedence. What's the process like when you go off script, when you go off of scripture?

Yeah. And you're trying to tell. something and you're writing scenes that are out of your head, what is the pressure and the process like to write that? Yeah, for sure, it's a tight rope and I don't always have the balance on it that I'm trying to find. So the one word that is the banner above all that we write is plausible. Now, that applies biblically, spiritually, historically, culturally, and artistically, which is this is a traditional Bible show in the sense that we're not just reenacting verse by verse miracle by miracle, which has been done before and done well. And I'm not, this isn't trying to replace that.

This is a show about the people of first century of Galilee. It's a historical drama. Using the Bible is the primary source of truth and inspiration. So when I go off script, which is actually the majority of the time, in the Bible, Jesus never said hello. You know, I mean, never says Jesus, you know. Said good night. Yeah, exactly. Or was, you know, eating a piece of bread while he was talking to his friends. So it's a dangerous territory we're walking through and waters to wade in. We operate from, is this plausible? Now, the answer to that question is a tough one sometimes.

But does this fit within the character and intentions of Jesus and the Gospels? And I have Bible consultants that I work with who read all our scripts. They don't have veto power. because they're different religious. Yeah, so I have a Catholic priest, a messianic Jewish rabbi, and an evangelical scholar. I'm an evangelical, so I'm going to obviously see everything through that perspective.

And I'm the final say. I mean, even if I disagree with one of them, we have another process where if there's disagreement, we kind of take it to a few more people. And we only go farther than that if there's what we would call a red flag, meaning if especially my messianic Jewish rabbi who really has a great handle on the hands.

history of it. If he says this would never happen, like red flag, then I'm going to take that very seriously. That's not going to be something I go, well, we disagree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but that's very rare. I mean, it's happened maybe once or twice. Has there been something that

you all really agonized over it that did make it in? Yeah. So in season one, we introduce you to Simon as someone who is fishing on Shabbat. He's breaking Jewish law to to feed his family, to pay his taxes,

all that stuff. And Rabbi Jason Sobel, who's our consultant, said it wouldn't happen. Jews do not break the Sabbath. And I said, okay, well, what if we portray it as a huge deal? Like, what if we, like, because the exceptions in the case of breaking Sabbath law

were when your life is at stake. And I can't even pronounce the term, but it's Pekethe, Pekotenefesh or something. I'm butchering it, so forgive me my Jewish brothers and sisters. But which is if your life is at stake, then you can break a Sabbath rule. So what if we portray it as Simon really believes his life is at stake here? He might be wrong, but he's doing it.

So Rabbi Jason kind of reluctantly tolerated that. And so because we portrayed it as a big deal. Because there are people. Yes. There are good people, religious people who are not diehard religious people, who would go, who that, yeah,

my life is at stake and it's a little, it's a little snakey, but it's also. Well, I even think Simon, I would have considered him a diehard religious person,

but I would also say he was a diehard everything. I mean, Simon Peter, he, he did everything like a bull and a china shop. And so to me,

it was plausible that he could go, I am a practicing Jew, but right now, I have no, my life is at stake because if I don't, if I don't pay these taxes,

if I'm not able, able to survive. And so it's a, you know, the plot of it you can see in season one. But that was the kind of thing that we, that we wrestled with. There's another moment in season two that was, season two episode five is probably the most controversial episode we've done. It has a few moments that were controversial for people. One is Mary Magdalene relapses. Oh, yeah. She's someone who'd been redeemed by Jesus, walking the straight and narrow path, healed from her, her alcoholism, and their demon possession, and she gets triggered by a few things and has a relapse. And in that same episode, Jesus has a couple of conversations with John the Baptist, and they have some arguments. They like

her two cousins. They have some teasing each other. They have some arguments. I love that. Yeah, see. And so did my message, I'm a Jewish rabbi who was like, because some people were really upset with that. Mostly evangelicals who were like, if you have two rabbis, you've got three opinions. that's conservative but all my Jewish friends who were like because it was mostly evangelicals who were like John the Baptist

had huge respect for Jesus which is of course true but they have not been around enough Jews yes that's they argue and it doesn't they're not mad they're just that's how they're learning

that's how they learn and so Jesus is saying to John the Baptist certain things and John's like wait a minute well why don't you do this and I'm and And Jesus has an answer, you know, and that's how John is learning. So that scene was controversial for some people, but then the big one, 10 seconds that kind of broke the internet when it happened, is Jesus preparing for a sermon, the big sermon on the mount. And he's by himself, and he's kind of working through the words that he's going to say.

I loved that. And he's like, salt has lost its flavor. No, no, he's kind of working through it. And there were some people who lost their minds. Just were like, he's God. He never struggled with anything. And I'm like, well, this isn't sin. this is this is Jesus genuinely thinking I'm going to be speaking to thousands of people I'm God

I want to trend I want to I want to say things in a way that they're going to also man and he's also man I don't think I mean this idea that Jesus is born all knowing I don't there there would be no struggle then well the scripture says he grew in wisdom and character which means that and we're still at the kind of the beginning of his ministry at that point and he is still trying trying to, I thought it was great. Yeah, and many people did. In fact, the majority of people thought it was beautiful, but there were some people who have a very,

what I would consider to be a rigid view of Jesus. Now, to be clear, I don't know for a fact that Jesus struggled with the words to try to figure out what he was going to say. It's not fact. The whole hypostatic union, God, man, fully, God, fully man, has vexed people for 2,000 years. It's not going to be solved from a comment on YouTube.

No. But there were plenty of people who thought they could solve. but their YouTube comment. And I'm not trying to solve it either. I'm saying, I think this is plausible. I think it's actually really beautiful. And, you know, episode three of season three, which you haven't seen yet,

but I can't wait for you to see it because I think you're going to absolutely love it. We show Jesus going to his hometown of Nazareth. And it's a famous book gospel story where he preaches in the synagogue and he asserts that he's the Savior. Yeah. And it doesn't go well.

It doesn't go. Suboptimal. Well said. And that's actually the moment in the trailer where the man says, the Pharisee says, if you do not renounce your words, we have no choice but to follow the book of Moses, which is when Moses said, you kill false prophets. And Jesus says, I am the law of Moses. Well, in that episode, we see him going to his childhood home.

He goes to his mom's house. She's got food for him. He stays in his childhood room. The next morning they go to the festival, Rosh Hashanah, where they're all celebrating. It's a carnival. He plays a game. with his childhood friends. He's lousy at it. He was never good at sports. Some of those things when you think about like, how much could Jesus bench press? You know, was he good at sports?

Right. And I think sometimes we think, well, of course, he's perfect. He's God. He could do anything. He's not Superman. He's not Superman. He grew up in wisdom and stature. We also show a flashback of Jesus as a six-year-old. And his father Joseph is teaching him some of his carpentry. And while that's happening, Jesus is learning to read. And there's this moment where Jesus, six-year-old Jesus is like reading some scripture and he's sounding out the words and Joseph is saying, no, sound it out. And he's like, broken, he's like, broken, broken he arted, hearted, you know, broken, what's that? What is broken heart? And Jesus says, what is that? What is broken heart that? And Joseph is saying, what's the heart that's broken? And it's not the heart in your chest. And portraying that and

exploring that. To me, I fell more in love with Jesus just even in the writing of that scene, because I'm like, was he born knowing how to read? Of course not. Was he born knowing how to walk? Of course not. That's the beautiful thing about the story. And so I do think that we sometimes don't, I think we sometimes miss out on that. And so that to me was that figuring out what he wants to say to me was part of this whole beautiful story of God becoming man. This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Hear that? That's your next obsession. Every coffee, a new world. Every sip, a new taste. This is the new Nespresso. One touch, endless possibilities. Iced, flavored, long, short. Because some days call for that espresso kick. And sometimes, a smooth,

silky latte just wins. It's exceptional, but effortless. Like actually effortless. Simply press, brew, and explore. Nispresso, what else? Keep exploring at nespresso.com. I don't know if you know I'm a I'm a painter and this this year I'm going to paint a painting of Judas which I never never thought you know but it's really because of the chosen that I because he is always he's always he's hated he turned Christ in turn Christ in but also if it wasn't for him, you know, it was a job that had to be done. And I, the fact that he hung himself, he knew. He knew. And if Christ, if he wouldn't hung himself, Christ would have forgiven him if he was, sorry, you know. How are you going to portray,

are you looking at him as more of a Josephus kind of character from history of there's a lot of false messias out there I mean the hills were full of people saying they were the Messiah people don't realize that Jesus was just one of many at his day and they were all warriors all of them they were all expecting warriors and you see it in the second sea or yeah second season where they're like, but why aren't we like, why aren't we going to build an army? Right. You know? So it would be logical that he would say he's not the Messiah.

Right. How are you going to play him? Well, I can't give all of that. But you're seeing the hints now. So in season three, Judas has now, is now following Jesus, goes home to kind of settle his affairs and talks to his sister. And his sister says exactly what you just talked about. She's like, you're following this Messiah. The Romans don't like messias.

The Jews don't like false messias. They kill people who are false prophets. And Judas says, which is a line that people have said just broke their hearts. He says, if he's the Messiah, he won't be killed. I mean, think about the ramifications of that, of Judas saying that. He really believed, though. I think it's unarguable that Judas joined the team. believing and healed sick like the other disciples,

cast out demons like the other apostles, we show that actually in episode four of season three, which is coming soon. The scenes that we're portraying of Judas now are, I'm hearing from people, are heartbreaking. When he meets Jesus in episode one, Jesus says, so your name, the meaning of your name, Judas. Judas actually means praising God with your hands.

And Jesus says, yes, Judas says, yeah, praise God, and Jesus says, with your hands. And Jesus says, so will you praise God? He says, yes, with my whole heart, you know. So absolutely Judas believed that he was the Messiah, at least initially. Without giving much away, I do believe that ultimately Judas was saying, all right, I'll say this delicately, poop or get off the pot. Like, if you're the Messiah, do your thing. thing. And if you're not the Messiah, then we need to know now because otherwise we're doing a lot

of damage because a lot of people more than normal, more than normal messias that have come along are following you. And Judas saw miracles. So when did he actually stop believing Jesus was the Messiah? And are you going to, are you going to show, that's why I want to paint is the moment after where he knows that what he's done. Are you going to spend time in that period? Of course. Yeah. Of course.

I mean, that's the thing that what we're setting up now with Judas and introducing you to Judas, I think, is what's going to make seasons six and seven that much more painful. And people are already saying that now, is they're saying the first couple of seasons are like, I can't, when I start to think about what's coming, it's even worse than normal for me because I now feel like I know the disciples, I know his mother, I know, I've seen Jesus laugh and dance. Oh my goodness, I don't want to see him on the cross,

you know, and that's what they experienced. And that's why it's going to be painful. I'm not going to shy away from it, obviously. But the Judas stuff is especially painful. And we wouldn't be the chosen if we didn't, if we skipped over it and just tried to, and then Judas betrayed him and then he hung himself. Right. No, it's, it demands, it demands,

Demand some time because I think we need to feel the weight of it. And I think we also need to feel our own culpability in it as flawed, sinful human beings of who he was dying for. I have to tell you, if you believe troubled times are coming, I pray I'm not a Judas, you know? Or a Simon Peter who denied him. I mean, think, when you portray, portray that, it's going to hit home to people, I think. For people who, for guys who saw his miracles, ate with him, drank with him, went to weddings with him.

New, saw his miracles. And still when a couple of them, when faced with the threat, go, it went, now what's interesting is, once he rose, spoiler alert, season seven. Wait, wait, why? Yeah, sorry. When he resurrected, they all were like, never again. I mean, that's one of the. greatest evidence is for it is how passionately they were like we saw him rise from the dead he

conquered death we don't care if we die right are you taking this beyond his resurrection will you go into paul and well right now i'm right now i'm trying to just get season four written and uh and at the end of season seven i'm going to take a year long nap but um season seven will go past his resurrection yes but it's not going to go into the whole, all the book of Acts where all the disciples are. That'll be another show or series of movies. We're talking about that now, but I'm trying not to get the cart before the horse.

It's really, really hard to do a TV show and to have it be good, and so I got plenty to work on now. But, yeah, I think if God calls me to be telling Bible stories the rest of my life, I could do a lot worse. We'd love to tell those stories. The Apostle Paul, obviously one of the greatest stories

in the history of humanity, potentially just second only to Jesus in terms of the impact he had on the world. He wrote the majority of the New Testament. And if you want to talk about a great conversion story, a drama. I mean, there's no better drama than death to life than blindness to sight than killing to being killed

for the same cause. It's something. So I'd love to tell that story, but I've got to figure this out first. Thank you for what you've done with Nicodemus too. Yeah. love that character. Yeah. And kind of quickly mentioned in the Bible, but you've really made him real. Yeah. What a great actor, too. Eric Berry, who plays him in that season one, he's just, he's astonishing. But, but yeah, I think it is also one of the reasons we chose him as a main character was, um,

kind of the double agent that Nicodemus clearly was in scripture. And this is, this goes to an important point. You mentioned he's briefly mentioned in scripture. This is, you want to know, like, How does the chosen get made? You can look at Nicodemus. Because we look at what's mentioned in Scripture, and then we work our way backwards, and we build around that. So we see him first meeting Jesus in secret,

asking him all these questions, clearly believing that Jesus is the son of God, but not knowing what to do with it, not fully understanding it, but saying, look, I've seen it, the miracles, you clearly are from God. But he can't admit it publicly because he's a Pharisee,

and he's part of this group of people who actually are opposing Jesus so he meets the Jesus under cover of night. The next time we see him is when Jesus is being discussed by the Sanhedron in Jerusalem and they're going, what do we do with this guy? I think we need to kill him.

And Nicodemus kind of goes, hey, maybe we should consider giving him a fair trial like we normally do, you know? Like he doesn't come out and say, hey, I've met him. He's the son of God. I've seen the miracles. He's like, hey, would you consider just a fair trial?

How about that? Still not willing to come out of the shadows. Jesus dies. and then what? Nicodemus then, I believe, almost like a guilt offering, contributes tens of thousands of dollars worth of perfumes and spices,

helps bury the body. Now there's no being in the closet about this. And I believe the secret is in John chapter 3. John chapter 3, Jesus is talking to Nicodemus and mentions Moses. And that during the time of Moses,

we actually portrayed this moment as a flashback in the episode that that people, the Israelites were dying of serpent bites and God had Moses fashioned a pole

that was shaped like a cross actually. That's how you, when you read it in the Hebrew. He lifts it up and all you have to do is look at it and you're saved from the serpent bites

and you're healed. He told that to Nicodemus so you can imagine when Nicodemus is at the crucifixion and seeing Jesus up on a on a cross and providing the redemption

that he had told Nicodemus he was going to provide that Nicodemus went oh, Moses, he's the new Moses he's better than he's above New covenant. The new covenant. And like so the opportunity

to kind of portray that we can do that and actually stay very true to scripture. This is not, this doesn't take a whole lot of artistic imagination to go John chapter 3. Later in the book, he shows again and he's completely committed to Jesus, not hiding it anymore. That's a fascinating storyline to portray and very, I believe, relatable to us today because there's plenty of

people who are religious and who are practicing something and who really don't truly know Jesus. And I think that's, those are the ones who can identify with Nicodemus. Thank you for everything you've done. Oh, thank you for having me. I, uh, I've loved, I, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, chad with you about this a few years ago, right when the chosen was first coming, and you seem to be kind of in on it pretty quickly. Like, I think you, I think you seemed to sense something was growing. Yeah. There's very few filmmakers that could say, I'm going to make the Jesus story that had the credibility that you had.

I mean, I just, it's beautiful. It's just beautiful. Well, honestly, I mean, it's very kind of you to say, but it's also, I think some of that credibility may come from abject surrender. I mean, I am, I may, if any credibility I have is because I believe I'm, the only credibility I have comes from him, you know, so it's a.

Billy Graham told me once, everything I've done that was great or worthy, that was all his. Every mistake. All mine. All mine. Yeah. Well, thank you.

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