The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 257 | Undercover FBI Agent Battled a DEMONIC Underworld | Scott Payne | The Glenn Beck Podcast  

Episode Date: May 17, 2025

“There are a lot of people out there who just don’t know how evil the world can be,” says Scott Payne, a retired undercover FBI agent who spent his career infiltrating violent motorcycle gangs and white supremacist groups. After growing up in a Christian home, he briefly fell into Satan worship until an encounter with a real demon sent him running back to his Baptist church. But that wasn’t his only face-off with a dark underworld in a career marked by burning Bibles, lighting crosses, and sacrificing goats, while undercover with the KKK and a new strain of young white supremacist chaos agents known as “accelerationists.” He and Glenn discuss George Floyd, Gretchen Whitmer's kidnapping, Aleksandr Dugin, and the humanitarian costs of an open U.S.-Mexico border. Scott reveals the connection between gangs, cults, extremism, and even radical jihad but says he remains an optimist through it all thanks to his family, the prayers of his wife, and his relationship with Jesus. In a time when so many don’t trust law enforcement or the FBI, Glenn asks Scott, “Is the FBI good or bad?” You’ll have to decide for yourself.   GLENN’S SPONSORS        Relief Factor   Relief Factor can help you live pain-free! The three-week quick start is only $19.95. Visit https://www.relieffactor.com/ or call 800-4-RELIEF.    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And now, a Blaze Media podcast. Hello, America. You know we've been fighting every single day. We push back against the lies, the censorship, the nonsense of the mainstream media that they're trying to feed you. We work tirelessly to bring you the unfiltered truth because you deserve it. But to keep this fight going, we need you. Right now, would you take a moment and rate and review the Glenn Beck podcast? Give us five stars and lead a comment because every single review helps us break through Big Tech's algorithm.

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He has infiltrated the outlaws, joined the clan, got an up close look at the new strain of white supremacy, recruiting young American people. Story of murder plots, drugs, demons, pagan animal sacrifices, a story of him in the basement that you'll never forget. But he's telling now a story

from somebody who was undercover from the FBI when less Americans trust our FBI. So it begs the question, who is still looking out for you? You're going to be riveted. Scott Payne. Don't miss the devil wears product too in theaters. Merrill Street, Anne Hathaway,

Emily Blunt, and Stanley Tucci are back. In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility. I did not hire you. And all I need to do is buy my time, Until you fail. On May 1st, icons. I'm going to make something of this job.

Rain. Be the bridges I burn. Night my way. Forever. I just love my job. Get tickets now. The Devil Wears Prada 2. Indeed is May 1st.

Directed by David Frankel. Reading your book, I don't know how you're not schizophrenic. Honestly, I don't know how. How did you balance the two worlds? In the beginning, not very well. You know, if you're doing, like I started at a street level, we call it street level. So you're doing street level buys. You roll up, you make a buy.

You know, you're not deep undercover necessarily. But once I got in the FBI and then you're doing deep cover for long times, long periods of time, yeah. The balance for me, where I messed up, really, it wasn't like a lot of people think, hey, you're acting. I'm pretending to be somebody I'm not. Yeah, I'm not a criminal. Right. You know, of course I'm not a white supremacist or, you know, a super violent person, you know, committing crimes.

But I'm still me. I'm still Scott, you know. Yeah, but I mean, I was fascinated in when you said, the friendships are real. Yeah. I just betray them. Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, there are times when, And, you know, one of the guys, you know, crying said, I love you, man. And that has to. That one hurt. It had to us. Yeah, that one hurt. Tell that story. So I did a two-year case inside the Outlaws motorcycle club.

That's one of the big four one-percenter clubs. You've got Hell's Angels outlaws, probably banditos, and then somebody else after that. Explain one-percenters. Oh, sorry. One percenter, for the listeners or viewers, one percenter comes, it came out around 1960. It was during Vietnam War, but a lot of veterans were coming back and they were creating these biker clubs. And the president of the American Motorcycle Association came out and blasted this media thing, you know, marketing that said, hey, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law-abiding citizens. It's only 1% this bad.

And they took that as a badge of honor. And that's why you see those clubs, you'll see a diamond patch with the 1% in it. But I've recently made the correlation that was kind of crazy to me because I did enjoy that lifestyle. I am a biker. But in law enforcement, it's 1% of law enforcement that does undercover work, like deep undercover work. So I guess I'm a 1% or in some point. But yeah. So you're in the 1% club.

And what are you there to do? Well, the case starts usually on the long-term cases, like the case team's already been working it. I'm not up there. I wasn't in Boston. I was assigned to San Antonio Division at that time. But the case team works. They get to the point to where they can actually maybe try to introduce an undercover.

And then we come in and we come up with a game playing. and try to do that. They had a lot of evidence and through law enforcement activity that crimes were being committed. But is it enough to get a federal charge? How do you know what they're what they're really doing deep within? And the undercover can give you that. If it's a success and ours was. So I went in there for two years developing relationships and getting the evidence of criminal activity.

It started with them. It started with like, um, um, um, um, um, um, insured. insurance fraud. Like, they would report their car stolen, and they would get their money from the insurance company, but I would buy the car or vehicle, truck, motorcycle from them at a stolen price. And then they believed I was taking them to Mexico, because I was based out of, I was based out of Macaul in Texas. And then that starts with that.

And the next thing you know, you start gaining more trust. You start becoming, you get more scrutinized as the circles open up. and then they carjacked somebody. And they call me and they're like, man, we need to get rid of this car. It is hot. We just took it from somebody at gunpoint, blah, blah, blah. Then they start talking about home invasions.

And then you're picking up some stuff on extortion and there's always dope deals. And we were building that case. You kind of go where the case takes you. But back to your original question is you do develop friendships. Now, don't get me wrong. On some cases, I mean, like, am I really, can I really bond with a violent white supremacists? Yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, I can try to find something to talk about. Right. But on some cases, and especially that one, you can develop some pretty close relationships, and I did over that two-year period. Is it, I, and maybe I'm just really naive, but I, I meet people who are supposed to be. you know, horrendous one way or another. And I can, I feel as though I can see who they actually are, not who they were born to be, who they really are, you know, without all the crap of their life. Do you, is that what you bond with?

Do you see that? Sometimes. Like good things in really bad people. Sometimes. Absolutely. I, I mean, I'm a human. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, you can look a lot of times, it's not every case, but there's been numerous times where I've looked at me looking at it through my eyes.

I'm going, well, that could have been me. They grew up in this environment. Something happened here, and they chose this way when at that proverbial fork in the road, I chose this way. But that could have easily been me. How many of these people do you meet and they're just like evil to the core? A lot. Yeah, I mean. So how do you deal with that?

How do you stay in a room? I watch movies, you know, I watch movies of people who are undercover, you know, even like, you know, Mission Impossible. And I'm a peripheral character going, I could never do that. I would freak out of my mind. How do you stay in a room full of just what you know is evil? How does that happen? What do you do to turn off?

Well, that's a good question. You're asking me what's popping in my head is I'm just in work mode, you know? I mean, I know I know I've got a job to do. I know I'm there, but essentially the job is to find out. I mean, we're being proactive most of the time in these cases. You're not reactive. You're being proactive. You've got reporting possibly of some bad things happening,

but let's just take the white supremacy stuff and that kind of rhetoric under the First Amendment freedom of speech protection, right? So you go in there and maybe after five months you find out they're not doing anything illegal. So I'm kind of in work mode, but don't get me wrong. When I'm sitting across the table from a pedophile who's hiring me to kill the kid that he molested, I have to, I mean, I have to, maybe that is acting right there. Maybe, because we don't say it's acting and we don't call it an acting school. I'm using what I know about me. And I'm just, you've got to be using personifying that.

But yeah, when you're sitting across from a, even as an agent, not just as an undercover, but even as a case agent. And you're working those types of cases. and you're seeing the horrific things. And there's a lot of people out there that just don't know how evil the world can be. Or is, yeah. And I get it. I mean, maybe their brain doesn't let them deal with that.

I got family members that can't deal with it, you know. You see something and they're like, oh my gosh, how can something like that happen? And I'm like, well, you don't even know the half of it. But I am an optimist and I'm my glasses half full guy and my faith has carried me through a lot of things. What is the role of faith that, I mean, And I was so glad to see this in your book.

You make a big deal out of faith. And I haven't really seen that covered on another podcast with you. And I think that's so critical here because I want to later go into what the dark side of the stuff that you have seen that is on the horizon with the kind of the new brand of really bad people. But tell me about faith. Tell me about your faith. When you were young, how'd you grow up? What happened? So I grew up in a Christian home.

It was more Southern Baptist when I grew up. It was the hellfire and brimstone, you know. Don't do this, don't do that. And then usually that's the person you find doing it anyway, which is, I'm like, yeah, it's human stuff. I'm like, you know, you're on the front line now. I'm like, you know, I didn't want it until you told me I couldn't have it, you know. But I grew up that way, and it was just the way I was raised by my parents and the love and my whole family.

I mean, both of my grandfathers were pastors. Wow. And I saw it. Did I see? I'm pretty sure I saw my mom's dad preach a few times. But he would get a shout out on the Gators, you know. They talk about being at a tent revival in South Carolina. I mean, they're like, ah, that's my grandpa.

Wow. But that's what I grew up around. Does that mean I stayed that way? Absolutely not. Did you have to brush with darkness? Oh, big time, yeah. My first seven years of school was at a Christian school. My parents were doing well enough to put me in a private school,

which had its own issues when I went to public school in eighth grade. You know, I was like, just to say peer pressure was a new thing for me, you know? You know it's wrong to do it, but if somebody calls you a chicken, you're like, well, I'm not a chicken. I mean, I know I'm going to get expelled if I do this. Right. I'm going to be a lot of things, but I'm not a chicken. I think I learned a lesson. I think it was in Back to the Future, two or three.

Yeah. Yeah. And the chicken thing. So in my teenage years, I did. And I put this in the book. I went through a little spell of, it started with like witchcraft stuff. And then it led into like just. You weren't.

Yeah. Yeah, like a friend. I always used to air quotes. My friend introduced me. And it starts kind of innocent and stupid, but I ended up just going into full-blown Satan worshiping, you know, wanting to sign a contract in blood and all this crazy stuff. I watched every horror movie from A to Z that was out, you know, when you could go rent movies on a VCR tape.

And I was just in a real dark place. I didn't realize at the time. Of course I didn't. I was a teenager. But when you get older and you look back, I'm like, oh, man, my parents had gotten divorced and that, you know, that, hey, are you okay with this? Because I'd never seen my parents argue at all. But that last year, that last year they argued nonstop.

And then they got a divorce. They got separated and then they got a divorce. And looking back, I could see that, you know, it's like, hey, are you okay with this? Yeah, I don't care. Yeah, I don't care. I was probably saying something else a little more vulgar in my mind, you know? I don't, you know. But that went in everything I did.

I started, and that's kind of like, I don't care. And it kind of goes, it goes with, if you look at gangs, cults, extremism, whether it's far left, far right, radical jihad, they kind of, you'll see this thing where they're grabbing somebody who has a need to belong, wants to fit in, maybe even as a young man, you want power. and you you that's kind of that's that slippery slope that led me down that path and then as I tell the story in the book I'm still unbelievable friends with my core high school group and the only thing we can chalk it up to is that it's everything we went through growing up that kind of made us

keep this bond um but one of my buddies uh was there we were drinking one night and I'd go to this full-fledged deal where I'm just talking and demon voices. I was losing friends. I was just, it was just evil, man. I would like, I had a Volkswagen, oddly enough, for my first vehicle. They do have good headroom. You don't seem like the Volkswagen. Beetle? Yeah. You don't seem like the beetle. Did you have the little flower in the bag? No, they didn't do that then. This is a 1971. So, yeah. But a solid white with chrome rims. Yeah. Doesn't matter what the body looks like

as long as you got good tires on it. But the place that worked on the car was a Christian workshop. And I would set the tape, say the band's Grim Reaper. And then somewhere in there in that 80s, satanic, you know, Pentegram stuff, there'll be some demonic speak. And I would set the cassette to where when they cranked the car, it would just be blaring. Because you could do that back then.

And it would be blaring that stuff. It's just evil. I mean, I was just being, I was not cool. And I was shooting everything in my back. backyard. I wouldn't, it, it wasn't good. And one night, I'd started doing these like skits, if you want to call them that. But I would like, I was acting out of a scene that I'd seen in the movie where it's a demonic possession. And you were with people? Yeah, we'd had a party and we were at somebody's house. I remember the name. I can see the guy. I can remember his name.

I didn't drive there that night. So just alcohol, no psychedelics, nothing to hallucinator, nothing like that and and I was doing the thing I was we were in the same rim as my buddy and his girlfriend and I was on a couch nothing nefarious happened everybody at least I didn't think it was you know everybody's passing

out but I'm doing this scene in my head where that I've seen in the movie and you talk like yourself and you're screaming no no no and then you laugh like the demon and you talk like that and I was going back and forth doing this I don't know play if you will and it ends

with the demon winning and the demon taking over your body. And I was facing the back of the couch. And when I rolled over laughing like the demon or the satanic whatever possession, when I rolled over, what I saw was all red like a watery image. And it was a demon looking at me, smiling with its crooked finger and nails and looking at me and giving me the come ear. And I screamed. I laugh now because I'm 54.

but I screamed probably the highest I've ever screamed. And from just me reaching, like sitting up on the couch and reaching for the light switch, I was as wide as a sheet. I was panting, pouring sweat. Of course, my buddy jumps up like, what the heck is going on, you know? And I looked at him, and I said, man, if I ever do that again, if I ever use that voice or even do this again, you got my permission to take a baseball bat and crack me over the skull with it

or something to that effect. He got completely calm, Glenn. It was like the spirit just entered the room. He just, everything just went, and he looked at me, and I don't even know if he remember saying it, because I think it was the spirit. He looked at me, and he leaned in

as if he knew what I'd seen, and he said, I told you, didn't I? That was it. I didn't sleep. I walked to church. I don't know how many miles it was. It was a Saturday night, and I walked to Edwards Road Baptist Church

in Greenville, South Carolina, and I think I sat through every service. I would have, too. That was it. That was it for the demonic stuff for me. What did he mean by I told you? I think early on, he'd said like, man, you need to stop that crap. You know, you're scared of people.

So he was not part of. No. Oh, okay. He was just a, he was one of the friends I was losing because I was going to such a dark place. And then, you know, throughout my life, have I seen demonic stuff? Yeah. Have I seen? Like, have I had to go to a, uh, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, uh, a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, a

Tantic Concertanic Concert Festival for three days. How do you do it? Very transparently, it's because they had Jack Daniels there. That's the only way I said. As an alcoholic, I can appreciate that. I'm like, I'm like, it's at a bar, right? And they're like, yeah. And I go, do they serve whiskey?

And they go, yeah, and I go, I think I can do it. Because I don't know about walking in to, it's just a bunch. For me, when you walk in, it's sad because it's a bunch of, of lost souls is what it is. How many of those lost souls actually know what they're dealing with? Like you didn't know what you were dealing with until it happened. Yeah, I don't.

I would venture to say a bunch because they're probably just on it for the kick or maybe they're saying they're atheists and they're doing it just to be funny, you know. But you start scratching at the service, I'm telling you right now. In my belief system, there's definitely spiritual warfare and all kinds of stuff.

It's the only way to describe, I think, what's happening because it's sweeping the entire world. And it is, it's either deep mental illness or its possession of some sort. There is, you know, I have friends who are atheist who have said to me, I don't know how to describe what I'm seeing other than evil. And I know that's not an atheist word and I know what it means. but I can't describe this any other way. Yeah. And that's what I try to tell.

I put it in the book. I'm sure it's been said before, but the best way for me to explain it, a lot of these interviews, I've been blessed on this book launch tour and stuff and even the Rolling Stone magazine article back in 2022. But I just say, look, you just need to understand

that there are evil people on this planet that want to do evil things to good people. And it's been that way pretty much since the beginning of time. If you can't deal with that, That's cool, but if we tell you, lock the door, lock the door. You know, don't, like, I think like a bad person. I didn't make me bad.

It's just, I think like a bad person. I'm like, I was dating my wife before we were married, and we're out in a great part in Nebraska. And I was a narcotics officer at that point at the sheriff's office. And you go to go to bed at night, and they don't even, not only do they not lock the door, they don't even shut the door. It's just a screen door. And I'm like, am I going to lock the door?

I've been there. And they're like, oh, you don't have to worry about that around here. I go, well, if I was a bad guy, this is where I'd come. That's the first thing I say, I go, this is where you see that murder show where some serial killer comes to town. Right. Three families are murdered and they don't find out for like two weeks. I'm like, man, lock the door. There's also crimes of opportunity.

Like you walk by a car with a window down and it's got a back when there were CDs, let's just say it's a CD or a DVD. sitting on the seat and you're like, man, I've been wanting to see that movie. You're not, I've never thought about thieving, but this person is dumb enough to leave their window down and leave it sitting right here. I'm going to teach them a lesson. I'm going to take this thing. That's a cry of my opportunity. So a lot of these things as I've been talking about since kind of going out, I just,

because I meet people that are way left of where I live, I meet people that are way right of where I live. And I'm like, look, if we just put it on the table, let's put everything on the table. first of all, we need to be able to have a conversation. You can't keep cutting me off. Let's have a conversation. But let's look at it and say, first question, is this good or is this evil? Because most of the time, you can break it down pretty quick, in my opinion.

You can see, this is not good. This is a bad thing. Do you wake up in the morning wondering how pain is going to affect your day? Michael from Connecticut used to, but he doesn't anymore. Let me tell you his relief factor story. Michael was dealing with elbow pain, which made everything in his hand and his arm really hurt. Nothing. He tried work. He started taking relief factor. Now Michael tells me his elbow pain has gone away. His other aches and pains went away too. And on top of that, he says, I feel like I have more energy.

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So talk to me about what did you call acceleration? Accelerationalachialism. Let's start with the clan, your grandfather's clan. The grandfather's clan. The white hudders and robes. Right. I infiltrated them too. I actually played music.

I played music for the spring and fall rally for a clan collection. Is it harder to do this, to be undercover now that the internet? Yeah. Yeah, it's got to be. Yeah. Wait a minute, I just saw you. Yeah. And you play in the band for your church.

Yes. Right. And they just didn't film you above the neck. For a year and a half, because the case, for that year and a half, the case I was doing was the public corruption case and it was close to where I live. So that's why that was off. But they stream these things into prisons and stuff too. You know, so that was another walk in faith for me. I had to say, look, am I going to let my job interfere?

I know it's not good operational security. I know it's not the wisest thing to do. But I've let my job interfere with me worshiping. up until this point. I would think you needed that. Yeah, I needed it bad. That's why I always laugh because it's volunteer-based. Sometimes I'm there, especially now that I'm semi-retired.

But, you know, even when I was working heavy, you know, maybe my wife is somebody like, man, you've been putting in a lot of time at church. I'm like, you can't get too much Jesus? I said, I'll take all I can get. I just need a D-minus. I want to get inside the gate. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. I just need to pass. So you have, you're with the old style clan, hoods, the robes, the. Yep. Very historical. I mean, it was literally, it was a lot of, it was like a history class. I mean, I had to learn a lot. How do you mean that?

I just, I mean, like, that's when you go in and you get naturalized as a clan member. Meaning what? Well, I went through it. I didn't know what was happening? I'm like, what am I doing right now? I'm blindfolded. They're telling us to say this stuff. And then at the end of it, I go, I think I just joined the clan.

And then as I was walking across the field, I was like, we're rehearsing everything, replaying everything in my head. I'm like, and I'm thinking about the legal is, I mean, the rules and the policies of the FBI. And I'm going, should I done? Okay. This happened. This happened. This is like, yep. I just joined the claim.

That's amazing. That's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like as an alcoholic, you ask yourself, am I an alcoholic? And all alcoholics will say, if you're asking that question, the answer is most likely yes. You can find yourself asking. I just joined the clan. Most likely you did. Yeah. So I,

yeah, those were, those were some pretty comical times. But literally you had to go to clan craft class every week. And like Facebook craft class. Like Facebook Messenger. And it would be like you, all the newbies would be in the group.

And like the leader of the group would be like they would throw, because they, they've got all these insignias and acronyms. And it's like, you know, like he would type. A-Y-A-K. So you try to answer quick, are you a Klanzman?

Because that's what it stands for. It's like, good, that's right. LODE, L-O-T-I-E, Ladies of the Invisible Empire. You had to know all these things. Like when was the first cross-liding? I don't think I remember that one. I want to say like 1945, 1915. No, no.

No. First cross-lighting? Yeah. It was in Stone Mountain, Georgia. I know that. Really? Yeah. Since I retired?

Not late? Because the Klan was around right after the Civil War. But it was Stone Mountain, Georgia. So it's somewhere in there. What is the cross lighting? That's when you see the cross on fire. I know. But is that a gathering or is that just, you just put it in,

you can put it in somebody's yard. Sometimes they'd put it in somebody's yard. But the thing I got to see was, or be a part of, was, and I remember the guy telling me, because my sense of humor also cares me through a lot of things. Right? Because I'm out in the middle of the field,

in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of Alabama and this guy's like, I'm like, hey, I see this like 20, 30 foot metal cross and you wrap it and burlap and then they take steel wiring and hold the burlap on, you soak it in diesel fuel and then you have to stand it up in the hole. And that's when I learned that you call, they call diesel fuel Clan Cologne because there's no way for you to stand that cross up and not get it on you. And then they go smoke cigarettes. I'm like, I don't know.

I'm like, I don't know how quick this thing will spark, but no. Get away from me. And you got like $500 with the fireworks in your trunk too. I'm like, what are we doing? But I remember you get naturalized. You take those classes and then you have to take a test. You take a K-U-No test to pass it, duo, trio, and then quad. And the case kind of fell apart before I ever did anything.

But I remember asking them, I was like, hey, are we going to have a crossburn in the night? and the chaplain, which was the clod, was like... The clod. That's whatever their chaplain is. You say, it's in the book. You break it down. But like I said, there's a lot of history. I'm sure some of it is very skewed.

But you see, Abraham Lincoln said that it's all this stuff. And it's the history of the clan and the secret, the invisible empire. But he said, now, Scott, it's not a cross burning. That'd be sacrilegious. It's a cross lighting. And I went... I'm like, but, but... I'm standing there like I don't know, and I don't, but I'm like all enthused.

I'm like, oh, okay, all right, all right. And he goes, he goes, see, a burning would be sacrilegious, but the lighting, it signifies the light of Jesus Christ coming down in the world and driving the darkness out. And I'm going, in my mind, I'm laughing to myself because I'm thinking, you're nuts. But I'm thinking, yeah, I met so many white guys named Jesus. You know? That's the first thing I think. I'm like, all right.

I mean, whatever you've got to tell yourself. Right. And by driving the darkness out, I'm assuming we're meaning non-whites, right? It just gets kind of convoluted. So you can go, there was a long-term belief system in white supremacy that's called Christian identity. Not to be confused with Christ's followers of Christianity. They take the story of the Garden of Eden and they twist the, you know what, out of it. They say that same kind of story, Adam and Eve, serpent, fruit of the forbidden tree.

sin, but they twisted to this. And it's a dual, it's called the dual, dual seed theory. And then a dual seed line, I think. But this is the way it goes. They say that the actual forbidden act was Eve having sex with the serpent, a k.a. Satan, aka a man of color. You got to follow me because it doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. the Bible. I've not seen that in any Bible, but okay. Apparently they read it different. So they say that, that Eve, the fruit of the forbidden tree was a sexual act with the serpent, Satan, a man of color. And from that intercourse, Kane was born. And that is what they call the mud race all the way down, which is non-white. And then they say, but the procreation between Adam and Eve is able. And that's the pure white race. That's why it's a dual seed line. And And it's that, I mean, but you can take paganism. I've got friends that are devout pagans that are some of the most peaceful loving people

I've ever met. It's not my belief system. Right. But I respect them. And now you see a lot of that coming into the white supremacy and extremism realm they're using because Hitler did, you know, that neo-Nazi. I mean, you see the Norse mythology and stuff like that. And, and I mean, it's good.

I mean, if you think about it from a young man, what's cool standard. point Viking. I mean, I got Vikings all over my own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool, right? Yeah. For them anyway. But they would take Christian identity and twist it. And that was the Reverend Butler, Red Rafearing, the Aryan nations up in Idaho. That was all that stuff. And then it's trickled on down. Then you get... Hang on just a just a personal note. I live part of the year in Southern Idaho. Is there still really bad up in Northern Idaho? No. I've got friends in Northern Idaho now. I know, but your friends are sketchy. We've already established that.

This guy's not sketchy. Former SWAT team leader, former FBI agent, not sketchy. And he says, he goes, yeah, we get a bad rap up here because of that compound stuff way back when. But they got, I mean, the government seized all that. And they went down and they're dead now. So that's Christian identity. So you see that. And then through neo-Nazi, you know, you might see like there was a phase there where

you have like 80s, 90s, maybe early 2000s, you've got your skinheads and all this stuff. And that stuff's still around. But then you saw a shift to like the clean cut white guy who was a neo-Nazi, like Richard Spencer and these other ones that would go out there and speak. And their idea was the entryism belief is to infiltrate the government left and right. If you infiltrate the left, bring it down from within. If you infiltrate the right, twist things. more towards white supremacy, which I don't understand.

There's not a lot of afterthought for a lot of these belief systems. I know, I know. I'm like, okay, so you take over as, let's just say you're a mayor, and you open the restaurants that's why it's only. You don't think people are going to notice that. I don't understand where this whole ethno state ends. Right. Is the ethno state we hang out of this one restaurant? I don't know what you mean.

But again, going back to your extremism beliefs, some radical jihad that's like, hey, they're going to get a caliphate. everybody kind of wants their own piece. So then you get to what you ask about accelerationism. In the 80s, there was a group that was there. They kind of had the belief system, but it wasn't called accelerationism. And we started seeing this stuff coming up, and I ended up going and being the undercover on one of the cases against a group called the base.

And I learned going in and infiltrating, this is where I learned the belief system. And the belief system is this. They call it siege culture. because there's a book out there called Siege that was written by James Mason longtime white supremacist created the Adam Woffin White Supremacy Group

but he's got a book it's a lot of interviews idolizes Charles Manson things like that I mean what a great role model right if you're going to pick somebody you know I'm saying that sarcastically that would be sarcasm

but that kind of lays out this accelerationism view and the view is this. They don't believe that there's a political solution that can save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse either on its own or from man-made events, and they want to accelerate it. So they don't, like, you're not going to see, if you see the division in the country back and forth, hate begets hate. I don't care whether you left or right. You do one thing hateful to this side. They do something hateful back to you.

It hate begets hate. But when they see, they don't like any government. right they don't they're not Republican they don't like any government and you're not going to see an accelerationist out on the corner with picket signs marching up and down the street like a Charlottesville type thing

or some protest maybe like a KKK thing they're going to be hiding because they want to do things like guerrilla warfare tactics they want to poison a water system start killing lefty journalist or or anti-fascist

I mean some of the these, I mean, it's in the book. I mean, it's in the action. It's in the court records if people don't believe it. I mean, I've had to sit there with these guys talking about, I can say guys, I mean, 20-somethings, you know, maybe a 30-something, but talking about when D-Day happens, which they referred to as the boogaloo, that if their father did not agree to be fascist, if you didn't follow fascist, that automatically made you anti-fash, and once the boogaloo hits, penalties he's death. And they're sitting there telling me, sometimes crying, saying, I'm going to have to, I may have to very well, I'm very willing to put a bullet in the back of my father's head, but I'll do it if he doesn't come to fascism. Now, are they willing to follow through with it? I don't have a crystal ball. Are you doing overt acts in furtherance of doing it? Well, that's how we built the case. They weren't against the parents, but it was against who they believed were an Antifa couple. And they wanted to murder everybody in the house as our first hit.

Murder everybody in the house. Burn the whole house. Murder everything in the house living. One guy even said, man, I don't have, because somebody says, hey, do we know if they got any kids? He said, I don't have a problem killing the comedy kid. Like, okay. What about pets? No.

So are you just talking or are you going to do it? Well, you buy catch bags to put on your ARs. So if you do have to shoot it, even though it's going to be super loud, it'll catch the brass. so you don't leave anything for law enforcement. You've got a pistol with a silencer on it. They've talked about all kinds of things to prepare for this night of murder. Leave all your electronics in one spot. Go to a paid-by-the-hour motel.

Scrub yourself of all dead skin. Put Vaseline on your facial hair. We're going to wear bala clavas, cover our whole body. Tape your sleeve to your gloves and nothing comes out. Same thing at your boots and your ankle. The guy leading the whole thing even came up. He did research and said that he had read that sometimes when people murder somebody for the first time, they lose control of their bowel.

So he was suggesting we all wear the pins. And then you still have a parent who says, you made my boy do that. And they were just going through a phase. They were just talking stupid. I'm like, hey, I was just as shocked when your son told me that we were going to kill people as anybody else. I thought we were going to put up flyers and posters. So I want to come back to what you just said about, you know, the acceleration. But let me go to there.

I used to trust the FBI. I always trusted the FBI. FBI was a friend. I trust cops. You know, I trusted the government. I trusted our secret service. I trusted our CIA. I trusted everybody because, you know, like after 9-11, we all.

stood. We all wept. We all looked and said, my gosh, I love my country. And then something happened to us in the last 25 years. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we don't all love our country. We don't all hold these truths to be self-evident anymore. And I don't know what to believe. I really don't. I mean, my son, my son was being groomed by somebody he was playing a game with online. Okay. And we would have a lot, by the line. We would have lost him if the guy didn't call once at 2 o'clock in a

o'clock in a morning and then hang up the phone. And we had multiple lines and I could see that the line went back on. And I'm like, one of my children or somebody is in the house that's using our phone and went up and he was talking to a guy and he was talking to this guy. And we were just talking about games, Dad. and he wanted to meet. And I was like, we called the FBI. The FBI came in.

They took the gaming thing and said, we can, we'll handle this. And they did. And it was fantastic. It tended to be your son. Yeah. And it was fantastic. But now you look and go,

is the FBI? And I'm asking you this question. Is the FBI good? Is the FBI bad? Is this like the Whitmer case? I was on the outskirts of that case. So tell me what happened? I don't know.

I really don't because I was on the outskirts. I was another undercover that they were using to possibly bump the guy that was making the bomb. I can't remember his name right now. But he doesn't need any publicity anyway. What do you mean bump? Like I was going to be introduced to him because what you saw was the main undercover going on, right? And I don't know, I really don't have any idea. I know the two guys that did it.

And I don't know what happened up there at that first trial. Because from what I understood, they had great over at acts. I didn't remember the guy's name. I won't say it. Yeah, I won't say it. But this guy, like the Baltimore office, I'd worked with him on the base case. And they called me and said, hey, just in case it doesn't work on this avenue, maybe try to talk to this guy because he likes to meet new people.

And he was the guy that they're trying to get him. Again, you're spewing a bunch of crazy stuff. You're putting all these videos out there. That falls within your First Amendment right. But how do we know if you're really going to go forward with it or not? And you get a lot of pushback and people that don't like law enforcement or have had bad experiences with law enforcement. I've always had good experiences.

I've had bad ones. I had bad ones before I became a cop. I had bad ones when I was a cop. I mean, look at you. I know right I'm not talking looking like this there's a line of a former buddy

I had I still love him to death but he says sometimes you forget what a piece of trash you look like I got to depends on where we're standing

we're at the biker bar we're not right but yeah the thing is this if you're not doing anything illegal

what are you worried about I've done many cases where I've gone in even if I was running it as an agent or I was the undercover and I'm in for five months. Thousands and thousands of the most hateful, vile, anti-Jewish, anti-African American, white supremacistism, but it's covered on the First Amendment

and nobody's planning on doing anything. They're just waiting for the day. So there's nothing to charge. So I got to pull Chawksin back out. Now you ask about, is the FBI good? Yes, I believe so in my heart of hearts because I did work a lot. I was a workaholic and I'm know my peers. Are there some bad things? Yeah. Like you see something come out on the news on that Olympic, that the doctor or whatever, molesting all the girls.

Apparently he came or somebody came and brought that to the FBI. And whoever got it, unfortunately, it was subjective, not objective. And you got that person that day and they said, oh, there's nothing here. I would have absolutely. Even though that wasn't even the violations I worked, I would have walked that baby. We'd have figured out something because you know it's not right. We just got to figure out what charge to go with. And if it's not at a federal level, well, let's go state.

But it's like, for me, it's a lot like anything else in life. One person or a group of bad actors, like the George Floyd thing, atrocious. I mean, I'm a defensive tactics instructor. I was the lead tactical instructor, firearms, active shooter, SWAT operator. I'm like, what is your goal? Is your goal to get that guy handcuffed and in the car? then why are we doing what is, you know? And it's tough because a lot of us don't want a Monday morning quarterback,

but we can't make those mistakes again, you know. And you see that, and now all cops are bad. And I'm like, no, no, they're not. I mean, does New Orleans have a history of correct? Yeah, you know, does the border? Yeah, does the border? Yeah. I mean, you're making, when I was down, let's just say you're making $25 grand a year.

and then somebody says, a cartel member says, I'll give you 10 to 15 grand if you just turn your head for three minutes. Let this car go through. That's over half your salary. You think there's a chance for corruption? Yeah.

You know? So do I think the FBI is bad? No. I've stayed very apolitical through the book and everything. Do I think that the FBI needed some changing? Yeah, I do, personally. Absolutely.

And like you said 9-11, what's sad is unfortunately it usually takes some catastrophic event for everybody to come together and swing the pendulum back towards better things. And I hate that, but it just seems like that's the way it works sometimes. It just seems as though there are more and more of these groups, Free Palestine, you know, Black Lives Matter, the clan, you know, neo-Nazis. crazy people, just all of these people who, do you know who Alexander Dugan is? The name is for me. You should, you should read, you'd love this. He is, um, uh, he is a guy was Putin's brain is what they called.

Oh, okay. Yeah, you know him? Yeah. So he, I mean, his symbol is the ancient symbol of anarchy. Okay. And he believes, and so do the, the 12ers in, um, in Iran. They believe that they can hasten the return of the promised one. He believes that we can hasten the correction of the world if we push the world into chaos.

And so they will work with anyone, anyone to bring chaos to the world. If it's going to cause problems, oh, I'll work with you. Absolutely. Because they want to bring their Messiah back? Yeah, they want the world to collaborate. lapse. Yep. Sounds like an accelerations.

Right, because they think that they're going to be the ones. I'll take care of, I'll take care of that group after. Let's get this done. You know what I mean? And there's so many of those. And when I'm reading and I'm seeing accelerationsists, that's what they are, isn't it? Yeah. But theirs ends with an ethno state.

Well, but everybody ends, you know, the 12ers in Iran end with an Islamic state. You know, Putin's guy ends with a Russian state. I mean, they all have that. I love how they all end basically socialism and you get your stuff for free. Yeah, yeah, right. And I did ask them one time, because my sense of humor, again, being somewhat dark. We were on a ruck, and it's like five, five of us, I don't know. And we stopped to rehydrate up on top of a mountain somewhere.

And I'm saying, yeah, so we're neo-Nazas. Yeah, okay, Bougaloo, yeah, man. D-Day, yeah, we're going to take over. Yeah, ethno state. Because the base was already looking at property in the Appalachian Mountains, was looking at the north-central was looking at property in the upper peninsula of Michigan. Pacific Northwest had land to create your own ethno-states. Again, not a lot of forethought or afterthought.

I'm like, so what do we do if the cops come? What do we do if the National Guard comes? What do we do if the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and anybody else comes? And it was just, and then I even asked one time I'll go, so who's going to be Hitler? And then it just kind of like, do, you know? I'm like, well, they're going to be one. Who's going to lead this thing, you know?

It's sad. And but you talk about like foreign influence stuff, absolutely. I mean, it's anything to create chaos. And you're right. Right. If people don't believe that our adversaries, our enemies, Going back to Cold War before, right? Aren't trying to feed chaos.

Feed things to create chaos in the United States. You're living under a rock, man. But the scary thing is, is we've lost a center of truth. And God has to be put back in. Absolutely, in my opinion. Yeah, God has to be put back in. And then the foundation of the country, which was based on God, needs to put back in.

We need to start putting people in jail that need to be put in jail. I agree. Just stop all of this crap. You know what I mean? But because we haven't done that for so long, you have all these groups. And, you know, when you talk about the boogaloo, they'll figure that out when they get there. They just want the collapse. And it's everywhere.

And I'm afraid regular people, if you start to read, become disenfranchised. You'd be like, you know what? These guys are wrong. Even though you don't believe everything, at least these guys are going to take care of it. Yeah. Wow.

Is that trouble? Yeah. And, you know, on a scale, like some people would be like, yeah, but it's only a one. It's kind of like you hear somebody say, well, they only took over two apartment building buildings. Two apartment buildings. I'm like, well, one's enough. You know?

And I'll get on a little bit of a soapbox for law enforcement here. It's very rare, especially when you're a uniform cop that you show up and everybody is happy. Yeah, yeah. You're showing up when everybody's at their worst. Yeah, usually. Yeah, it's not Facebook. Look at how happy I am right now.

Look how great my life is. But it's, you see things like that and you go, yeah, until something happens to you or something happens to your family. And then you want to know. I used to always say, before I retired, I only retired in 21, June of 21. I used to say, look, man, don't hate me. I'm a law enforcement officer. I'm here to serve and protect.

I took an oath. My title is peace officer. That's the way I should be acting. It's not always that easy, especially when you get, there's a whole other tangent to go down, but the things that law enforcement sees on a regular basis can be pretty horrific.

I would say the same thing to them that I said to you at the beginning. How do you do it? You're seeing the very worst. How do you do it? We're number one in suicide. First responders. And I'll throw a military one net. Military first responders.

And that's not just, that's medic. That's fire. We're first in suicide. We're first in divorce. We're first in alcoholism, which you can throw pills and other stuff in there now. And we're usually, if we're not first, we're pretty high and dying within five years after retiring. Because it's just such a pressure cooker. But I used to always say, look, you know, don't hate me.

I'm just enforcing the law. If you don't like the law, then change the law. Then that's my parameter, right? I'm looking, this is the law, you broke the law. And then we went through this phase where they were just picking and choosing what they wanted to charge. It's like, oh, well, I disagree with that federal law. So I think it's okay to break that one. No.

What kind of slippery slope is that? Yeah. You know, I'm like, and then you've got agency strapped that can't even do their job, yet you want them to go out there and be on the front line and take a brick to the face. It's tough. It's tough. But for me, I just, I think I love talking. And I think everybody just needs to come to the table and be able to have a conversation.

I agree. Like if I took, I'd say it jokingly, but I'm like, if I took a white supremacist and let's just say it's a black separatist. Because I've met a lot of people since I've retired like through eradicate hate, global summit. I'm talking about, they call them, I hate to put a title, but it's like a former. You're a former, like you're a former radical jihadist. You're a former white. You're a former black separatist, and we're all sitting down at a table and having a meal together because now they're with life after hate and stuff. I don't know where I was going with it, but yeah.

I was headed somewhere, but oh, well. I love that when that happens. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. I know. Let me take you to how are these accelerationists attracting new people? Oh, they're big on recruitment. Recruitment.

You kind of hit on some of it in the gaming. Like you said your kid was being groomed, man, that happens all the time. Parents need to be aware. Look, I get not wanting to be a helicopter parent. I don't agree with helicopter parenting personally. Online, you have to. You have to. I mean, there's great applications out there like bark, just like it sounds, B-A-R-K.

You can install that on your kid's phone, man. I don't know how many thousands of people they got working it, but they got people working it. It will notify you if there's suicidal talk, firearm talk, dope talk, sex talk, all that stuff. And it'll also quiz you as a parent to, do you know what this means? This is the current thing right now. This is the current. When you see this emoji, do you know what that means? How long has this been out?

I just, my kid, today, my daughter is graduating from high school. I would have liked that. Yeah. I'm with you. I found out from another law enforcement officer who had already done the research and development. And he told me, he said, I'm like, dude, or like, I'm in the FBI office. And I come in and I'm very transparent. And I'm talking to the guys and gals on the cyber squad.

about some things that I found on Snapchat when my daughters were younger. And they're like, oh, yeah, Snapchat's the double for young kids. And I'm like, well, see, that'd be nice for you to spread through this entire office. Yeah. Because I didn't know.

That'd have been good to know about three months ago, actually, you jack wagon? Right. So, yeah, just putting it out there. But gaming, huge recruitment is there, but all these dark web apps, like, and maybe it's not even considered dark web, telegram, gab,

wire, riot. Discord, all these things, they can be for good things, but let me just let you know that there are people with nefarious plans going to those things to recruit. And that's how I got in the base. I went to Gab. They were posting all kinds of stuff. Their channel would get closed down and they would change one thing and come back. What is the base? They said they were a survivalist group training for whatever. And then you start, you see like, save your race, join the base. And then it would have an email at ProtonMell because that's not in the States, right? So you can do that. Anything that they believe is encrypted. And a lot of people's mind, that means,

okay, basically the feds can't subpoena this because it's in another country. Right? And sometimes it's true. You know, VK was the Russian Facebook for a long time. I don't know if it still is because I'm not in the game anymore, but you go on there and it'll be like, hey, here's a room, whites only.

Well, I wonder what you're going to find in there. Right. 14 words, which is this is all throughout white supremacy. The 14 words coined by David Lane. I don't have it memorized anymore, but basically secure in the future of the white race and our children. So you start going in there, and then you see, like, people go to a lot of work. They'll put together these videos where they're showing real things that happen, where let's just say it's blacks attacking whites

or just brutal beatdowns and stuff and they show that stuff to get your hate going. But if you go over to the black separatists, they're showing videos of white people doing bad things to African Americans or whatever. And it's like, again, it's that whole, it's evil. It's hate, it's the devil, man. You walk over here, you're whispering this year.

And a reasonable person would say, both of those are true. Yes. Let's not be a part of any of that. Yeah. and they're just in there, and they go to these great lengths to recruit. In the base, the rule for us was every video we released for recruitment, the next video had to be better.

Had to get better every time. So putting up flyers, doing videos, and you see a lot of young kids diving in here, you know, from all over the world. I mean, we had members in the base from, because, I mean, you got a phone now. You got a smartphone. And that shrinks the world. I mean, we had members from Australia, in Australia, South Africa, Canada, the UK, Germany, I think Norway, and there's plenty more. How dangerous do you think it is to where, but I don't want to get you into politics, but in Europe, they are importing all of, or, you know, allowing all of these people to come on refugees, and they're not listening to the people.

And I'm not talking of white people. I'm talking people who are any color, but that's their country. And they don't believe in this policy. And they feel their country is being overrun. And nobody seems to be able to explain exactly how this is good for our country. And I'm watching these farmers, you know, with the W.E.F thing, where they're being told, you can't farm that land. You can't use fertilizer.

And they're like, well, how are you? going to eat. And nobody seems to have a good answer. And they're all going the same direction. And I look at this as a ticking time bomb for two things. One, civil unrest, like nobody's business, and extremism. When you back people into a corner and nobody is making any sense, you'll go to the only person that's saying the things that you're thinking about this deep, not thinking that

they're this deep on all of those things. It's like being in prison. Pretty sure I'm probably going to side with the white group because it's prison. Right. You know? It's like, all right. Right. Because, I mean, you're trying to survive at that point.

Are you concerned about that? I am. But again, I'm an optimist in the glasses half full guy. If I wasn't, I'd probably jumped off a building a long time ago, you know. Sometimes if they push far enough, hopefully everybody wakes up. Hopefully a catastrophic event, something horrific doesn't have to. to happen. And they can wake up and go, wait a minute, we have gone too far. There's humanitarian. I get the humanitarian thing. I work the border for six and a half years. I was at the president

two weeks ago. And he said, I know, I'm the same way. I said, look, if I'm living in Mexico and my town is overrun with drug lords, my kids have no chance of ever progressing. I tried to vote and they kill the guy I'm voting for. And America doesn't care about their borders. I am there. in a heartbeat. I'm taking my whole family. I'm trying to get everybody to America. I get it. I 100% get it. So we have to have compassion and understand. We also, we don't want to be the Titanic without lifeboats. We have to have lifeboats. How do you do it? Maybe they can speed up the process. I don't know. I'm not an immigration guy. I worked with them like crazy for years. but humanitarian side, man, I've seen a mother and a daughter get caught because I've apprehended a load.

Because when I was in McAllen, Texas for six and a half years, the bulk of that time, I'll say it was the flavor of the month, but it was special interest alien smuggling. So it was aliens, it was undocumented aliens coming into America from threat countries. But it was very rare that you would find a pipeline, say, Chinese triad from China all the way to New York City. It would be you've got multiple smuggling groups all on the Mexico side, and they're bringing people in. And it might be 10 loads of just what they would call other than Mexican or Mexicans. And then in that 11th load, you got nine Chinese or you got somebody from Yemen. So it was very rare that you had this straight pipeline. But I've seen horrific things.

I mean, and I wasn't even working it every day. But like a mother and a daughter who came from somewhere way away, had to come on a ship. There's no telling. I mean, I'm pretty sure I won't get into it, but there's been horrific things that they had to go through. I know. Or you see a girl that went through Guatemala in a hidden compartment

by the engine of a bus, no AC, and that heat for like 16 hours. And then through Mexico, in a hidden compartment next to the bus engine for 16 to 18 hours. And then you finally make it across the river and you get caught. And they send them right back. Or that mother and daughter, they flew them back. And I'm like, but I've seen evil people because they were Mexican.

They just kick them back across the river. And I'm telling you, Glenn, well before we're even close to finish and processing everybody or even attempting to get paperwork done, I have a source calling me going, hey, they're back in the stash house. And I'm like, I'm still at the board patrol station. And they're like, yeah, they're back at the house. They've already kicked them. They've already come back and cross the river. That's the, this is the problem, though.

I think all of our compassion is misplaced if we're not thinking about the compartment next to the engine in the bus. Yeah. By, first of all, by not being clear on what our rules are, that person, wherever they are, thinks they have a chance to escape. whatever horror they're in and get to America. And then, I mean, again, I would do the same thing. It's a dilemma because you also know that, or at least I know, because I've worked it,

when that opens up, you know that bad people are going to use that for their advantage. That's what I mean. And that's what happens. All of the people along the way that are making all kinds of money and exploiting those people, we don't seem to care about the suffering that goes on because we're, unclear and all of the bad guys were empowering. A lot of people don't know it. They don't want to know it. And depending on what your political stance is or what you're running for, some people, I mean, it's politics. They want, you know, they want the votes. How much do these clan and everything

else, how much do they have in common with what the drug cartels are really turning into? Does the drug cartels seem to be? It's different. It's different because like, a lot of the white supremacy stuff I did, there wasn't really a lot of, I mean, if it was drugs involved, it was because they were using, personally using Adderall to help them shoot faster. You want some pale horse? I got, no, I'm good. I got coffee. I don't even know where you got that, man. It's probably got fentanyl. No, I'm not going to do Adderall. I didn't see a lot of that. That was more about the ideology and getting your own ethno state or like even the Klan changed from being white supremacists. They go, we're not white supremacists anymore.

We're white separatists. And I'm like, because it sounds less. Right. You can have the politically correct races. You can have your town. Look, on this other side of this ridge and those pine trees, you can have all black, whatever you want. We just want our all white right here. And I think the words, it's in the book, but I forget the actual.

transcription it was like, I mean, you don't see, I was like, you don't see cats and dogs having sex, but we don't like race mixing. And I'm like, that makes absolutely, okay. So that's a cat and a dog. These are two humans. I'm like, I think if I see somebody with a giraffe having sex, I'm going to say no to that. I'm like, you know, I mean, I kind of see what you're saying. I don't see what you're saying. You were, you were at some thing. where me yeah you heard something where

they sacrificed a go yeah yes that would not be they that would be us I was there and took part in it so we'll circle back on that paganism thing so a lot of your white supremacy groups that I've been in

at the end were falling more towards paganism but I say that loosely because just like how the white supremacy movement took Christian Christianity and made Christian identity, Church of Jesus Christ Christian, all that twisted Garden of Eden stuff, and there's a whole bunch of other stuff too. The white supremacy realm was taking paganism and twisting it, and it's not what it's supposed

to be. So this was the group of the base, and it was a Halloween hate camp, 2019. Yeah, Halloween, yeah. I mean, we didn't call it Halloween. I was going to say, I'd love to see the flyers in the school halls. Come to the Halloween hate camp. Everybody's welcome. I mean, almost everybody.

Not everybody. I mean, not you. Yeah, oh man, people. But we had probably like 12 or 13 members come from all of the United States. And North Georgia was the cell, C-E-L-L. I always spell it because I got a country accent. The closest cell to me was in North Georgia. It just ends up luck, divine intervention, that that's one of the people who were

trying to find out about. And this guy, Luke, he went by the, he went, but for the most of the time, he went by TMB, the militant Buddhist. Everybody has a moniker.

I was pale horse, which is the title of the book. The, he had, he lived on a hundred acre. Can I stop for a second? Yeah. Why the pale,

because of the pale horse for his death. Yeah. Well, the story goes like this, I came in as white warrior, which was more of an, boomer kind of a thing.

But of course, I'd argue back and I'd go, well, I'm sorry when I was in this movement and I've been in it longer than you've probably been alive. We wore it proudly, tattoos, all this stuff. I just twisted it to make it believable. But pestilence was one of the main guys. And I asked him, I said, because he was like, White Warrior's such a boomer name. And I'm like, okay, all right, first of all, I googled it.

I don't even fall into boomer years, but whatever. You know, you little punk. But I'm like, so where did you come up with pestilence? And he said, well, it's one of the four horsemen. It's, you know, it's the plague. And I'm like, wow, that is really cooler than mine. I was like, now I do feel like I'm wondering. That was pretty good.

And then I said, I said, man, would you be offended if I took pale horse? I said, because I've always been fascinated with, you know, death on a pale horse, the grim reaper, you know. You throw in the Metallica song, you know, four horsemen. And he goes, absolutely not, man, take it. And that's how I became Pell Horse. I was Pell Horse etter of souls. You had to have like an et thing under you.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Okay. So you're back with these people. Now you're cool. You're at the Halloween hate party with all the kids, all the cool kids. All the cool kids, yeah, with guns. Great.

On Adderall. Some haven't slept in three days. Good times. Thank you. Again. Right. Jack Daniels. Yeah.

You know. But it was Halloween. We were doing this probably be like four days of training. Luke's dad has 100 acres out there. And it was gorgeous. I mean, gorgeous land. But unfortunately, not good things were happening on it. But we do like hand-to-hand combat training and some firearms training.

And then this wicked cold front comes in. And I went to charge my phone and I kind of dozed off for a bit. I wake up to them pounding on my window. Pell horse, pal horse, man, you're not going to believe it. You got to get up. I'm like, what's going on? And they had went and stole a goat or a ram. I still, I've talked to owners of both, it had horns.

It's pretty big. I don't know if it's a ram or a goat. I still haven't figured it out. I've even Googled it and I'm like, I'm still lost. I don't know. But they called it a goat and a ram. They did both. But they stole this ram from not too far away.

almost got caught doing it. And you got to picture the base members, we all wore like Fleck-Tarn camo because that's the German camouflage pattern. What is the fleck-torn? It's just the style of camouflage. So not that anybody wearing fleck-torn has got to be a white supremacism.

Well, it comes from Germany. But it's a German pattern, right? Dr. Gagermeister, you can figure that out. They woke me up and I go over there and man, they've got this ram. And it's crapping all over the bed of the truck. And one of the dudes is like, because they got their Bala clava zone,

their battle rattle, which is their plate carriers, gun belt, all this stuff. And all Fleck turned out. And I remember one of the members, Dima, he was like,

he goes, man, this thing's crapping all over. He said, worded it different. But he's like, this thing's crapping all over the place. And I said,

well, man, I would be too, if a bunch of big dudes with masks and just jerked me out of my backyard and threw me in the bathroom. So the guy that was going to be leading the blot, which is supposed to be the ceremony for paganism, was a guy named Eisen. And he was not necessarily like a Saw True certified. He was just twisting it.

But he was going to sacrifice the goat, Ram. And he named it Gar, because his middle name's Garfield after his grandfather Garfield. And I'm like, we're naming the goat that we're going to sacrifice? Okay, man. And I remember walking up to him and I was like, hey, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? And he's like, hey. You said that to him.

Yeah, I said it. And he's like, oh, don't let the goat hear you say that. And I'm like, oh, crap, it's too late. I just had a conversation. I'm pretty sure he's thinking of the things right now, you know. And he said this, we've got to show this goat. Love, we're going to be sacrificing this goat to Odin. It's going to Valhalla to kick off.

off the wild hunt. Well, in Norse mythology, Norse mythology, the wild hunt is essentially Odin and some other gods going out and just destroying their enemies all through the night. Rape pillage kind of stuff? I don't think it was raping pill. I think it was destroying. Yeah.

But I'm not a guru on it. But. What do you know? You don't know the difference between a goat and a ram. I know, right? It looks the same. I'm not going to lie. But the,

in his twisted version, the wild hunt after the sacrifice was going to be the kickoff of the wild hunt to the base neo-Nazi accelerationist movement was going to be us starting to cleanse the world of anti-fashioned non-whites. So I went over to my listening device, one of my devices. Won't say what it was, where it was from tradecraft, but. I mean, heck, I could have picked up a phone and called somebody. But I'm like, I tell the, because I know the case team's listening and they're covering me because I'm in the, I'm on this farm for four days. So I'm covered for four days.

And I leaned in and I'm like, hey, man, I don't know if you guys heard basically, but I think we're getting ready to go sacrifice this animal. And I'm running it through my mind. I'm thinking as an undercover coordinator, a senior investigator, I'm thinking all the policies. And I'm like, laws. I'm like, I can't come. up with a reason in my head to not go and blow this whole thing. I said, but if you guys don't want me to do this and you want me to shut it down or walk away, give me a sign.

And I sat there and I waited and I waited and I waited and I'm like this leaning over the device and I'm like, well, I guess I'm going down to the woods for this sacrifice then, you know, however I worded it. And we went down in the woods and Eisen said some things talking about the wild hunt and what the sacrifice was going to be. And he had something similar to a machete, and he went to come down on the back of its neck. He was like, he was a pretty stocky kid.

He's like, doing his practice swings and fums. Somebody's like, just do it. And we're all in a circle on our knees around the goat. And ram, whatever. And I'm at the back of it. I still don't know how I got at the back of it. Wasn't the wisest thing, but that's what I meant. So like musical chairs, that's the spot I got, yeah.

And he comes down full-fledged with the blade. And I don't even think it broke a hair. I don't know if the blade was dull or if the backstrap of the ram was so thick. But it just went bha-ha-ha-like that. And I went, oh, man. Somebody was like, hit it again, do it again. And somebody's like, it's probably going to take more than one swing. I guess he was picturing like a guillotine, like the head was going to come off.

And then somebody says, does anybody have a gun? We weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there. the one guy who was the least qualified to be handling a live firearm who hadn't slept in probably two or three days was the guy who had the gun. And it even shocked Luke, TNB. Because me and Luke were like, what? And he were like, what are you doing? And Luke took the gun from him, hands it, and it gets past Eisen. Well, Eisen chambers around, points towards the goat, ram, the head, and then looks away.

We're all in a circle. So the instructor in me comes out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? And he's like, what? And I go, man, look at what you're shooting. We're all in a circle. Jack wagon, you know? I mean, you know, for Odin and everything.

You know? I mean, we're supposed to look because he told me we didn't just show this goat love. This goat is being blessed. It needs to. So he comes out, he finally looks and puts it in, and you can hear it on the recording. You hear it fall on the ground. You hear it fall on the ground. around. It kicks for minutes. It's still shivering. I'm like, I don't know if it's dead or not. I'm

like, man, put another bullet in it. And he's like, uh, he goes, I'm pretty sure it's dead. And I go, you know, for the goat. It needs to be. Show it love. Yeah, love. Going to Odin. It's in Valhalla. Kind of. It's still wiggling. Finish it. And then he finished it. And then they, you think you're done and you're not. They go and slice the throat of the goat, fill up a big cup with this blood. And I'm holding it. in a flashlight for eyes and everybody's still on their knees and we're going because we're in the middle of the woods this pitch black um except for the torches and i'm shining the light and he brought acid so now he's tearing off acid uh hits off the sheet and giving it to members almost every member

did it um a couple of us didn't um but uh it gives them that and they chase it with the blood as part of the sacrifice so by the time the cup gets to me the blood is all coagulating it's chunky It's like clotted. It's like old, thick egg yokey looking, and I'm looking going, man, I really don't want to drink this. And I think it was eyes and the game. Meant Out. He said, you can just dip your finger and taste it.

It was getting, I was like, this thing is getting thick. And I dipped my whole finger down to blood and sucking my mouth, sucked all the blood off. And then they cut the head of it off, through its innards in the creek. Some members tried to cook it. It's not made for eating. Not made for eating. Glenn. That was the gamiest meat I've ever tasted

in my entire life. And then we carried the head around for like three more days. And there was photos of us blasted all over BBC because it turns out there was another member of the base that was not law enforcement, but

was working for like either Southern Poverty Law Center or something like that. And he had gotten the pictures and we didn't know where it was coming from, but we eventually found out. But that's why it was, they thing you know, it's all over the news and here we are and there I am in the picture with them. You can't tell because we're all covered up because nobody wants to get doxed.

That was the big thing with them is if you get doxed, then you lose. The far left was really good about showing up and protesting at your house, your kid's school, and then you lose everything because everybody now knows your white supremacists. Did you ever, did you struggle because you are, your faith is so important. Did you ever struggle with, I'm not kneeling at this goat and this sacrifice and even letting this blood? How did you deal with that? I would say yes and no because I know my belief, I'm right with my Lord. And I've talked to even pastors about it.

You know, I'm like, hey, I'm doing this, you know, because like my tattoos on this whole arm, it's Viking warrior stuff. But for me, it's the armor of God. I've got the shield. I've got the boots. I've got the belt. I've got it. The helmet. I've got it all in there.

And that's what it means to me. And once I retired, I put the Ephesians verse on there. But I'm in work mode. And I know that somebody had to kick Satan out of heaven. You know what I mean? Somebody. So there was times where I've crashed mentally, physically, and I had to really have a come to Jesus meeting and pray and figure out,

am I ever going to be able to get back to where I was at? what hit me after all these days of praying is that it was what I heard was the Lord saying back son you would have never been able to do what you did if it wasn't me for blessing you in the first place so I know that I've been blessed with that and and I'm doing that I'm not I'm not really worshipping right right right yeah yeah because there's a part in the there's that same weekend there's a part in the book I go into detail about where we do a bonfire two days after a because the second day was completely blown because almost everybody did acid.

So there was no training. Everybody was still high. But we had a bonfire, burning Bibles, burning American flags, death to America, F your Jewish God, everything you can picture being yelled

was being yelled there. How many people? Like 13, maybe. And... Must have been so... You just like, you just, must at some point just go, this is, your people are pathetic. You have 13 people in the woods.

Yeah. You're pathetic. Well, it's, but they found the bond. They, a lot of those guys have been bullied, um, uh, uh, are outcast. Some of them are on the spectrum a little bit, uh, autism spectrum. Um, you've got, uh, can't get a partner. And they sit in their bedroom all night on this phone and Dopp down rabbit holes of hate and find like-minded people who have been treated the same way. So they've, a lot, I mean, some of them can be fixed. They've just been led down the wrong path. But yeah, at that moment, a little crazy. A little crazy, but they're burning the Bibles.

And I watched the flames go up. It's even on the video, the propaganda video, you see them open face, put it down in the fire. And the fire goes up. it comes back down. One of the members is stoking the coals. And, you know, now he's trying to get the fire going again, and a Bible flips over, opens up, not a page burn on it. Sidge on the edge and on the, but pages.

He'd start tearing them out page by page, get the fire going again. And I'm thinking that was pretty odd, you know. But then people talk signs. They're like, well, some of the Bibles, the pages, made out of the clay, it doesn't burn. I'm like, whatever. I watched it burn an American flag. Right.

You know, whatever. So flames go up, it's dying back down. Yeah, I start stoking the coals again. Second Bible flips open, unburnt. I wish I could have seen what bucket was. That would have been cool. But one of the members said, man, these effing Bibles just won't burn. And I did my little, I didn't do it.

In my head, I did it. I did a little, little Sammy Sosa down. I look up like that, that's pretty cool. I get it. You know, but yeah, it's tough. I got to that weekend. I got home. I felt dirty.

I reached out to my pastor and said, man, I need you to pray over me a little bit, you know, and just get my head back in the game. How's your wife deal with all the time that you were gone and everything that you would go through, come back home? If you talk to her, she says she just gave it up to God. Because back in the outlaws case, that would have been like 2005 to 2007 or 8. And I didn't know. That's where I said I thought I was doing pretty good and I wasn't.

But she would be so nervous and worried that she would just move furniture all the time. I'd come home, the house would be completely rearranged. And she finally said, look, I got to give it up to God because she can't control it. And I'm like, if it's my time to go, it's my time to go, you know. And I'm not going in lax and I've got a skill set and I think I'm good at, you know. know what I do. And I think I'm doing it for the right reasons. But even, even towards the end of my career, like the base case, we were sitting out

and just talking and she's like, she said something about covering me. And I kind of giggled because I'm like, man, I was an arc when you met me, you know. I mean, we've been doing this for 20-something years. And she jerked a knot in my tail. She said, listen, I'm your wife and it's my job to cover you. And when you're out there on these undercovers, I'm covering you in prayer. And, man, I was like, I am sorry. I didn't mean to giggle.

Thank you. And that means a lot. So, yeah, it's not. And she's not a, my home in like a military home, you know, where you can disappear for six months and the family still stays together. My mom would probably implode. I don't know. I'm not even sure if the house would be there when I came back, you know.

Yeah, I know. The Operation Poetic Justice and Murder for Hire. How often were you an assassin for hire or played that role? Yeah, a bunch, actually. I mentioned the one, the pedophile who he knew that he wasn't going to do good in prison and he had gotten locked up for a purported, last station, but while he was in San Antonio, the jail, Bear County, he solicited somebody to help him find a hitman to kill this kid. Because in his mind, if the kid was dead,

no trial, which is on the scale of some of the murder for hours off, that's not a bad plan. But yeah, I went in and I met him. There's just two quick meets, but I had to go sit in the phone room with all the stainless steel with baby mom. and everybody yelling and screaming, and I'm trying to get a recording of this guy saying he wants to hire me to kill the kid. And that was probably one of the quickest ones I've done, but one of the most satisfying cases.

Oh, I bet it was. I bet it was. Can we just spend, I just only have a couple of minutes left, but I have to ask you, you, the guy you, that trained you, is kind of the original badass, Brasco, right? Yeah, Jeffa Stone, Donnie Bras. Joe Pistone is still a friend.

He graciously did a blurb on the book. Yeah, I mean, so in 1972, the FBI never worked undercover under Hoover. And pretty much when Hoover went out the door in 1972, they picked 25 undercovers. There's a black and white picture of the first ever undercovers in the FBI. And they were like from Philly, New York. Really? Hoover didn't do it? No, no, he didn't believe, for whatever reason, he didn't believe in undercover.

You just believed in wiretaps. Yeah, yeah. That's weird. But, so back then, there was no attorney general guidelines. It's like, here's this recorder about this big and here's a lot of money. Let's go make a case. So, yeah, Joe did six years in the mafia. And that safeguard process that we all do now, or I'm retired, but if you're an active

undercover, you have to be psychologically assessed. It's mandatory. And that program was built by Joe. and another FBI agent who was previously a psychologist. And that's to take care of, make sure you're mentally stable, your family is very important because we're type A personalities.

We'll go out there and keep saying yes and keep saying yes. I mean, I cover it in the book. There's at least twice. I've just been two times. I was put on timeout. They're like, you are not recommended. You are not going back on that undercover. And I'm like, okay.

you know what's the closest you've come to either breaking the cover blowing it where is there a time when you've gone oh crap well there's a bunch of there's a bunch of oh craps um but as far as blowing my cover just getting caught yeah just getting caught the biggest one's probably the outlaws case. That's where they took me down. After a year and a half undercover, they, a year and a half undercover doing all those insurance things, carjackings, whatever, and some dope stuff, we up the ante to do a big shipment of drugs so they could be introduced because they've been asking, so they could be introduced to some cartel contacts, because what does a drug dealer want? They want the highest purity product they can get for the lowest

price they can get because then they can step on it and you know and make more money right um so imagine if you're in massachusetts and you get a straight pipeline from mexico you're probably going to get some good stuff and uh we up the ante and then at that year and a half point they carried me down into the basement uh it's more like a cross space of the clubhouse um and stripped me at gunpoint looking for a wire the problem was as i was wired to the hill and they almost they almost found it It was close. It was close. And what are you going to do?

I'm like, even if you think you're a tough person and you can fight, you're in a crawl space, basement, whatever. I can't stand up straight. I could probably touch the wall on both sides. They've already shown me their pistols. I'm not free to leave. And even if I could get past those two guys without getting shot, you got everybody upstairs. I got another probably 10 upstairs with the door locked with a metal bar across it and everything else. And it came close.

Like I had a no crap mom. adrenaline dump, your auditory exclusion happens, your time dilation happens in your eyes, everything you sees and screen grabs, everything slows down, everything you hear is going whoosh, wish, real slow. And what seems like an hour is probably a couple of minutes. And I took all my clothes off. I wrote down my name and everything they wanted me to. I was panicking like crazy. You can clearly hear that my voice does not sound like this.

My throat is a lot tighter. My pitch is a lot higher. Some of my diction is terrible because I'm talking through my nose because I'm freaking out. And I thought I was done. And then close line, it was supposed to be my buddy.

Not the FBI undercover buddy, but, you know, the Scott Callaway buddy. He, he grabbed a piece of clothing and that piece of clothing had some equipment in it and he starts kneading it with his fingers he's like working it he cracked the joke

he's like hey man I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to like some naked pictures of my old lady and I'm like I hope not you know but I'm watching him do this and I don't even know I do it you can hear me on the recording go because I mean what am I going to do you know and he looks

looked right at it and missed it by that much, by that much. There's crazy, there's crazy things like that because that's another, it goes back to my faith. That night when I called my wife, I'd always called her, especially during that case, I gave her like a covert phone, a burner phone. I bought and set up so I could call her from my undercover phone. And I called her that night and the first thing she said is, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, why? She said, man, I was driving in McAllen with the girls,

which our girls were little at that time, about like three and one. And she said, I just got this overwhelming feeling, and I pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for you. And that's when I was in the basement. I looked at the time. That's when I was in the basement.

Wow. Yeah, that's some freaky stuff. But, I mean, there's been other things where, you know, somebody's got a double-barrel shotgun with both hammers cocked back like this on the table pointing at you. You go with my brother, and his brother's right there. My brother says you're a cop, and you're looking at his brother going, he's right, because I arrested him when I used to be a uniform patrol, you know.

How do you get out of that? How did you get out of that? I started counter-accusing, deny counter-aquis. Because I didn't have near as much training back then. That was when I was at the sheriff's office. But, you know, you find yourself in a situation again with another case, poetic justice. You brought it up. Guys got a shotgun, double barrel, hammer's cockback.

I should learn my lesson with those, I guess. And he's like, he's already told me, if I find out you the law, you're a dead man. You hear me? If I find out you the law, you're a dead man. And then I did something to bolster my bona fides, to bolster myself as looking like I know what I'm doing, like I'm really a criminal.

And I overstepped my bounds. I underestimated, and it's a chess game. He got me on that one. The next thing I know, I'm going to say what you did? Yeah, I told him that I've been like, like, hey, man, that dope that I bought last time from his relative, it was weak. And it was. And any dealer or user is going to know, and they're going to come back and be like,

hey, what the hell was that? You sold me, you know? And I told him, I said, oh, yeah, I said, that stuff was weak, man. He goes, well, this isn't. Try this. And I was like, oh. And next thing you know, I've got a red bone hound in my crotch. And that thing was mean, mean.

I was like, you just didn't move. You just like, because it's going, like touching you. And you're like, okay, and then he's got the shotgun, and then there's an open bag of cocaine in my face. And he's like, just do it, just do it. And I'm like, I'm talking, and I'm like, man, I told you I don't do it. I'm laying out everything that I think I could lay out for me and my story. And then I realized it was, this is his test.

And I even said, I said, this is your test. This is it. And I just did some real quick hand movement. And I didn't ingest anything. and I was pissed. I let him know I was pissed, but as soon as that happened, you have to be able to see.

Is this situation deteriorating? Clearly it was. But as soon as I did that, he immediately, everything was fine, and he's like, hey, come to the back room. Here's all the dope. My relatives of the cop, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was good to go after that.

But I shouldn't have let that happen. But again, that's a chess game. You're trying to stay. moves ahead while you're still connecting with people and gaining trust. I have to tell you, I think I should have worn it depends just for this interview. I would have peed my pants. I don't know how many times if I were you, but I'm glad people like you were out there.

Thank you so much. Well, thanks for having me. And, you know, it's an honor. I mean, again, it's a calling. You don't do it for money. Yeah, no. You don't do it for fame. I mean, there are men and women out there that have done way more than I have

undercover and, you know, I've been blessed. So I'm just trying to pay it forward. Yeah. You know. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. You pray. Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.