The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 27 | Bob Goff | The Glenn Beck Podcast

Episode Date: March 9, 2019

Glenn sits down with Bob Goff, a former attorney of 25 years and New York Times Best-Selling author of the book, "Love Does." He is also recognized as a diplomat by the U.S. Department of State as well as an Honorary Consul for the Republic of Uganda. Their conversation involves Bob's philosophy and how one gets to that point of faith and contentment when it comes to loving those around you and who you've given control of your life. They also talk about the world as we know it and to ultimately realize that we don't know everything that goes on around us and to take a genuine interest in the people around us. During the conversation, they also discuss God's love in each of their lives and how people who don't believe in God replace that level of power that Christians have available to them through salvation. Ultimately, when we share God with other people, Bob Goff says that we should always do it with love because, at the end of the day, "it isn't flesh or blood that reveals Him, but the spirit itself." (Matthew 16:17)  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you could be anybody in the world, from any time period, whatever, who would you be? I think you would be on my top three people. Oh, man, I'm honored to hear that. Yeah, I just think this, it's just life is just so interesting, isn't it? Yes, it is. I'm just so glad we get to be back together again. And your, somebody asked you if you could write your autobiography in six words, you said. Yeah.

Remember? What if we weren't afraid? How powerful is that? Yeah, because I think most of the stuff that drives everything you and I and the people listening do is either love or fear. We just got to figure out who we're giving the keys to every day. Right, right. So I want to come back and how you get to that philosophy. But first, for anybody who doesn't know you, let's start with you're an attorney.

Yeah, isn't that crazy? Yeah. You're like the happiest attorney I think I've ever met. Yeah. So I put on this Mickey Mouse watch probably 30 years ago and say, you ever walk into a room and you feel like you're the only guy smiling? I'm like, buddy, me and you. Let's do this thing. All right.

So you're an attorney. But you found yourself somehow or another becoming general counsel or counsel. What is it exactly? Honorary counsel for Uganda. Isn't that crazy? So tie it from you're just a practicing attorney to now who you are. How did you thread that? How did that happen?

Yeah, well, you know, first of all, claim to fame is like husband to Sweet Maria Gough and daddy, these three amazing children. But just like all the people, let's see, you know, one thing leads to another. So I have a capability. So it's like practicing law. But we aren't just limited by what we're. capable of. You'd say like, what are some things that will actually light my passions? And so then those started taking me to some people. Uganda at the time was in a great big civil war, a 25-year civil war. And I thought, well, I could help out, maybe do something. So I just headed for the

courthouse. I met some judges. We started doing some things. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You headed for the courthouse in Uganda. Yeah, totally. Right. That's most people don't get on the plane. I know somebody who, and he changed my life, he was watching the news and he saw all these Christians being persecuted in Syria and Iraq and the Uzidis and everybody else. And he said, I can help out. And he got on a plane and he found himself in Iraq

and we started a fun together and we've rescued all these people over in Iraq and Syria and we're building houses for them. But it's crazy because if you think about it, you don't do it. You don't do it.

You say, I'm not going to get on a plane and go to Iraq. I don't know anybody in Iraq. I don't know anybody in Uganda. What am I going to do? I don't even know what language they speak. Yes, the Queen's English, isn't they great? With a little bit of an accent. But that whole idea is getting away from asking for permission to live your life.

You have permission. If we have agency over the things that we do, You just say, what's a passion and is that within my ability to do it? And then you just start. And I love that everybody's wired so wonderfully different. You know, there's some people like plan at all and I'm more like build the plane while you're flying it. And I really believe this life is more adventure than it is business trip.

Imagine, Glenn, if you and I were driving down the road and our left rear wheel past us in the fast lane, that'd make a lousy business trip, but it'd be an awesome adventure. And so I think one of the things that I've been doing is where there's an opportunity and you see something. You say, like, actually, I could get some skin in that game and just go be humble about it to say, like, I don't have much, but I'm available. And so bring all the availability you've got. And then what you'll do is that you'll find this opportunity.

We'll find this passion. And now you've got a ball game. That's why you started this idea. You said, we could do a fun. We could take a passion that you have. meet an opportunity and just see where it goes. So we found, and I found it bizarre, that people who had absolutely no experience in any of it, none of it, none of us knew what we were doing.

All of a sudden, when we realized nobody was doing it, we were like, well, somebody's got to do it. But most people and most times, you wait for permission or you, you wait for permission or you look for someone who's already doing it and you say, can I join you and then you wait for them to give you permission to do the things that they're telling you to do. Right? Yeah. So are there two kinds of people? Are there the people who are those kind of people that should do that? And then there are people like you who are just like, no, I got my own machete. I'm just going out into the jungle. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? And there's all those variations in between.

between like kind of like riffing on these personality types. Have you been like read the Eniogram and learned about these personality types? It's really fascinating. There's a one type would be a seven and I'm the enthusiast. So I'm just a flaming seven. I'm just like I'm always thinking what could possibly go wrong? Right. Just like let's do it.

Fail trying. Don't fail watch it. Another one would be a one. It's the organizer. We have some in our family who are just very detailed. And so just wonderfully, just figure out how you were hardwired from the factory and then live into that. But I wouldn't live in fear back to the original idea. Don't live in fair.

I mean, the disciples, those guys got the nets on the wrong side of the boat most of the time. And they change the world. And so what you say, like, I'm just going to fail trying. We'll just see where it happens. I'll bring all the capability I have and where it finds an opportunity. Now you've got a game. What do you think? the world seems to be going just rushing towards fear right now, just rushing towards fear.

You're afraid of everything. And some of it's real. Some of it's not. Some of it's overblown. There's stuff that you're like, I can't do anything. I can't do anything about that, you know? And that is causing more and more frustration. How does somebody, for instance, if you're concerned about,

the direction of things, okay? The direction of people or society or culture. And you don't want to unplug because you feel like, well, I mean, somebody's got to be in there and stand in guard, but you can't really do anything. I mean, is it better to unplug? And, I mean, how do you talk about the circle around you, your oval office. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Imagine this best way to describe it.

Imagine you and I are down in the Caribbean and we're in the water, like waist deep and it's beautiful and warm and all that. And swimming at you is a huge fin. Would you say that's a shark or a dolphin? What do you think? I would hope it was a dolphin, but probably say that it's a shark. Yeah. So if you say to your listeners, some would say definitely a dolphin. My wife, Sweet Maria Gough, she wouldn't say that's one.

shark she'd say that's a thousand sharks and the other 99 or not it because i'm the enthusiast even if it was a shark i'd say dolphin with a lot of teeth it's just like come on so figure out what's keeping you out of the water and if it's wisdom that you've gained through experience and all that then that's terrific but it's fear that i'd get back in the water i would say what's keeping you out and so if you take a social issue something that's captivated people's attention to say is it fear that's fear that's keeping me away from that or is it wisdom? One of the things that I do is I win arguments for a living, as to you. But I'm really picky about the things I argue with people about. I'm just trying to be actually a little bit more humble about things. It's just say, to be

curious to say, I wonder where that's coming from. And to be curious about the people that are sending the messages, there's a guy that calls me about every three weeks from the back of my book. He just cusses at me. That's all he does. I thought I knew all the cuss words, but evidently there's new ones. And we've never gotten to what he's mad about. But I finish the conversation with him the same way every time. I say, I will always take your call.

Because I'm not trying to be right. I just want to be like Jesus to the guy. I look at the way these people that have shaped history, take all the leaders that have influenced you and all the listeners. And to just say, how did they deal with people? And they weren't shouting at people. I'm just not going to be that guy. The only time I raise my voice is when I'm yodling. And I've never yodeled.

So let's go to Jesus for a second. I find it fascinating. Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Lincoln. They all used Jesus stuff. They were all doing Jesus stuff. They were all just love your enemy. Just love them. Just love them.

Just love them. Just love them. and all of the Christians, it seems, right now, when you say, let's talk to our enemy, let's love our enemy, let's be kind to our enemy. Don't hit back. Everyone says, Christians, that's crazy. And you're like, wait, but isn't that what Jesus said to do? So there's a disconnect between what we believe, or maybe it's a disconnect between us and Jesus. We think that's okay for Jesus, but it won't work for me. But wasn't that his message? It will work. And isn't the proof in the pudding with all of the great men that have lived, that it does work? I think you nailed it. I think there's a lot

of people that have awesome doctrine and a lousy theology. And this idea of, It's easy to say to love your enemy until you have an enemy. Until you have somebody that you feel diskin. I don't feel like I have enemies, but there's certainly people that are difficult for me to be around. One of the realizations that I've had is that this idea of loving difficult people that I'm one of them. Actually, among the difficult people in other people's lives. And I'm trying to say, how could I interact with people? There's a, for some people in faith communities, they're familiar with a verse that talks about,

like being ready to make a defense for the hope that's within you and everybody wants to like grab their swords and what they leave out the second half and it's said to do with kindness and respect and i think there's something beautiful about that like take switzerland they're not mad at anybody and i'm not mad at them right so i if you just walk around with a bob sled and a bar of chocolate you can decide who you are and everybody's trying to decide what role am i playing in this And I think there's a tremendous latitude in that, but I just like the role of grace, the idea of when people have just been kind to me, even when I've been wrong, that they just care more about our relationship than they do about winning an argument about something. And there's something really respectful. What has helped me with the people that like creep me out the most is to try to think of what is it that's driving this? Like what's the thing underneath the thing? And oftentimes it's just that they're really insecure. Me too. Like how do you respond when you get insecure In a setting like how do you deal with that? I get really funny I get like just I get so I start talking really fast and I get funnier and funnier than other people get mean as a rattlesnake so how do you deal with your feeling? You get quiet and you serve you go turtle on that like head legs tail everything inside and so that even in our relationships that matter the most to us to just say how do you do you do?

deal with that and to say how are we like going to react to people. You know what I wear? I'm mootering. I remember those things from the 70s. My wife's got one too. There's something actually beautiful. What we do is we talk about how we feel more than what we want. It would be an interesting experiment. Try that for a week to take the people that you love the most and say, don't say I want a hamburger say I'm feeling hungry. If we could get in touch with how we're feeling about something, And I'm not a touchy-feely guy, but that has been so helpful in my relationships to just talk about, I'm feeling really insecure right now. So let's talk about the difference here between feelings and facts, because we are entering a world now where feelings are all that matters.

I feel as though you're oppressing me. I feel as though you are whatever. Well, that may be the way you feel, but that may not be reality, you know. I feel that I'm an eagle. Well, you're not an eagle, and I appreciate that you feel that way. Here's a mirror. Right. I can be kind to you and appreciate where you're coming from, but you're not an eagle.

Yeah. So can you talk at all about separating? Because when people say, well, let's talk about feelings, that, part of that or the abuse of that is where we are falling apart. Yeah, I would say maybe another time. camera angle and this would say what are the things you're certain about and what are you just guessing about and if we could just say these are a couple things that I'm certain about and these are a couple things I'm just guessing about then the things that you're certain about

is it because you are feeling certain about that or that you have a base like where does that come from where is that coming from and you don't do that in being an antagonist to say where does that come from well my parents told me that well that's terrific but your parents might be flat wrong So to say, what do you certain from and where do that come from? That's actually a beautiful discussion because you're actually more interested in the person than the position. Because say, well, what's your position on? Like, you don't have to swing at every pitch. When people ask me, somebody called me up, they wanted to know what my position on was, what's my position on wrath?

Honey, I just haven't even thought about it. But if you want to meet some really weird people, go Google that and make a couple calls. So we don't have to take a position. There's some thing that crept in that probably wasn't true when there was, you know, our forefathers, that we need to have a position on everything to say like to say what I'm interested in is developing my character. I want to be a guy that says something and then does that thing. I want to be a person that takes a genuine interest in the people around him. That was like lifted right from Paul talking about this young guy named Timothy. He said there's nobody like him.

he takes a genuine interest in the people around. That's the guy I want to be. And so there's something when somebody has a really strong position on whatever big social issue of the day is, then, then, in them. Instead of just saying, like, well, no, I need to convince you. That ain't going to work. I've never lost a case. And it's not because I'm an awesome lawyer.

I'm an awesome picker. I only pick a case. Picker. Picker. Yeah. I don't lose. I only take cases that nobody could lose. And so there's one of the.

these things that just be a little bit pickier about the conversations that you're having with people. And when you see this, say, like, you know what, I wouldn't trade our friendship for the trajectory that said, you don't have to work for NASA to know the trajectory of where this is going. Say, that wouldn't be worth it. You'll know that I'm disinterested when I start talking about sports. Me too. But if you know why you're doing, you will not see me very often without wearing a Boston Red Sox hat. And I'm not a Red Sox fan, never even gone to a game.

But my neighbor, Carol, was a huge Red Sox fan. And we knew she was going to be in heaven by the end of the weekend. So we made a deal. I told her, Carol, I'll wear your Red Sox hat for the rest of my life and represent the socks here on earth. But in exchange, every time Jesus walks by you, you need to mention my name. There's a person that said, I knew you not. I'm like, Carol. But here's the deal.

when I go through New York, people hiss at me. And they just be like, because they're rooting for the other team, evidently. And if they knew that I was wearing my dead neighbor's hat, they would just actually have a different angle on that thing. And I don't stop people to tell them the backstory. But I think if I could just assume in people that I don't understand, there's probably mountains of stuff going on there that I don't know about. That'd be really helpful. 20 years ago. I remember when, I think it was the Bush administration, it was right after 9-11, and the White House

his statement that you have to watch your neighbor and report on your neighbor. Oh, yikes. Yeah. And I thought, no, no, that's really bad. The thing that we've always been, the one thing unique about America is that we generally trust each other and we generally like each other and we're just like, I don't, you know, you do your thing, I'll do my thing, and we'll meet over the fence and just leave it alone. Where other countries have been made paranoid because they've gone through times where

you couldn't trust neighbor, you didn't know who was working for what government or whatever. And we've kind of come to this place to where families aren't talking to each other and neighbors and friends and somebody says one thing on Facebook that I believe, leave this and they're befriended and it's awful. Are we, is this just amplified because of social media? Are we getting worse? Are we getting better? How do we navigate these days?

Maybe just assuming that you don't know what's going on behind the thing. Like you don't know the guy under the hat. You just see the hat and you think it represents something. And then to realize that there's this person underneath the hat and to take a genuine interest in them to say, hey, tell me about that. What are you certain about? What are you guessing about? And say, these are the three things I'm certain about. And then instead of challenging that to say, like, wow, where did that come from? You know, and it's not a deposition because I've taken thousands of those. But to say, just take a genuine interest in the like, wow, where did that go? What are the three things that you're certain about? Oh, I'm certain about my faith. Not because I read in a book I'm supposed to be certain. about my faith. And I couldn't tell you quantitatively. I saw a star or a, you know, a dove came down. I would say like, no, I'm just certain about it. Everything I see validates these suspicions that I had about faith. I'm certain about my family. I'm just like positive that I love those guys.

And then I've got about eight friends. You know, they, on our last day here, we're going to about have room for eight people around our bed, nine if they're thin. But like to say like, I'm certain about my friendship with about eight people that they would be there for me. They don't care what my faith looks like. They don't care what my family looks like. They care what it is. And they're not calling me out on stuff. They're just loving me. They're with me. They're with me. There's something beautiful about that. If you could just find out a couple things that you're certain about, then some of the things that are distracting us won't distract us as much. I just go like, I don't know, man. I got these three things that I'm pretty sure of.

And then to say, I'm guessing about these other things, but it's an informed guess. It's informed by knowing that I have certain biases that are coming into that and to try to identify what those are. But what happens sometimes is we avoid all the difficult people. And they're not dangerous people. They're just difficult. But we're seeing sharks when I see just insecure dolphins. Because insecure dolphins, if they're insecure enough, they look like dangerous people.

And they're actually, they're just dealing with their own stuff. And that isn't this like a soft, like, you know, touchy-feely kind of thing. But just assume that there's more going on in their life than you would assume. I have found, at least with politicians and celebrities, they're a lot like puffer fishes. The more insecure they are, the bigger they puff. Oh, isn't that true? That's really true.

Apparently there's some TED talk out there. speaking at some place and there was this woman stretching her hands and they were up to the ceiling. I'm like, oh, honey, are you okay? She said, I'm trying to get big. She's like five foot six. But I actually am trying to get small. Like I'm actually not trying to get big. I'm trying to get small because I don't want to be like this huge presence.

So there's no room for anybody else. And I think that idea you can tell people when they're humble, when they're. enter into conversations kind of palms up. Look at the difficult topics that you take on and the people have all kinds of opinions about you. And that takes a lot of courage to do that. And you need to be willing to be misunderstood. Like I get misunderstood all the time.

I bet you do. Because people are trying to think, well, you're trying to like you're this, you're this, you're this. And you can be misunderstood and just like Jesus was misunderstood. They killed him. But would say, like, what if you're just get. comfortable with the fact that living our lives will be constantly being misunderstood. And that doesn't make everybody the enemy.

It just makes them just either insecure dolphins that look like sharks. People that don't know the guy underneath the hat, they don't know why I'm doing what I'm doing. In today's world, though, that's really frightening. I mean, I know people now who are younger who are starting on the same, you know, kind of, you know, journey that I was on, you know, 15 years ago of just starting to come into the public eye and and they have an opinion. And the first thing I say is if I could go back and tell myself one thing, and that is always, always be humble with what you say. Stop speaking with such authority. You know what I mean? Because it's just you.

but other than other than that people now are starting to come and it's hard to say oh yeah no go do that I mean it's that's what I say but I always say to them are you prepared for what it's going to be like because it's and it's happening down to people who are just regular people you're I don't know if you saw the Covington story with the kids that were up on the mall. You talked about, you know, you're wearing a hat and somebody misjudges you. Nobody knew about that kid. Nobody even went and watched the whole video. That kid's life is now forever changed, forever changed.

And if he's who I hope he is, think he is, it'll be changed for the good and he will be able to use that and find good things that that can come out of that. But most people don't want to go through that. They don't want their family to go through that. They just would rather just, I got to be quiet. I'm just going to be quiet. And that adds to missing out on everything you're supposed to do. Yeah. And then so what thing that could happen is that we actually, you know, this idea of guarding your heart. It's just, it's a beautiful proverb 423 to guard your heart above all else. But we don't need to lock ourselves inside the vault. And there's some people in whether their faith communities or other communities that are getting inside the vault and closing the door

to say that isn't guarding your heart. That's isolating yourself. And so what's a parable of the talents. It's just yeah, totally, man, don't bury that thing. Let's go out and like make some moves. And there's something beautiful. And you don't need to be making everybody else's moves. Like, keep your eye on your own paper. Like my wife famously just tells me that all the time. I'm not trying to be like her and she's not trying to be like me. We're just saying how could we reflect in this marriage into the world these beautiful things we think are going to outlast all of us.

And that's been beautiful. When we got married, they said the two will become one. She thought we were going to become her. She's like so different. I get around people. I'm like, people. She thinks having me in the room's a lot of people. She's like, but there's something beautiful when we try to be like other people or to take on their issues.

That's where it gets murky. Or when we try to fix people, like just sort them out. I would say like, dude, you don't have the toolkit for that. Even just trying to, you know, I have found because I do some self-reflection, the biggest mistakes that I have ever made is when I'm trying to convince someone that they're right or wrong or misguided and that doesn't work. It just doesn't work. You know, it's this, and this is need is growing with people, this need to win. Yes. No, just don't draw. If you can drop the need to win and replace it with the need to listen.

When you can do this with kindness, though, to ask probing questions, which is what you do, to ask a probing question to say, where does that come from? What do you think? You can do that with kindness and say, like, what do you think? Prove it. We don't need to cop the attitude. What you can do is to say, I'm really, I'm curious about that. Tell me where that came from.

Is that a feeling? Was that something you learned from your parents? Is that something you read somewhere? Why was that among all the things you could be compelling to you? Why did that get your attention? So this is, I go back to our original question, and maybe I can ask it in a way that you'll answer with more than just, I guess, the facts. How did you get here?

I actually asked that question. I was making my way through this hotel. and all this. And I got there and said, how do I get here? And there's something, well, some people say evolution and something. I'm like, no, no, buddy. I just see how do I get to this room? So when you, when you say, how did you get here, like, in terms of, like, career and track and all that? Let's start with just more fundamental. Oh, you know, how did you get to be? I'll tell you. I'll tell you the happy and peaceful and open and California seemingly without all the weird stuff. Yeah. I'm actually wearing shoes.

The first thing that popped to mind is my grandparents. They were just so big and wonderful in my life. They thought I hung the moon. It was just so beautiful. I would go to Disneyland and they had rock candy there. Do you remember that? And I would get a little box of rock candy. I'd bring it home to my grandmother.

Every time she saw it, it was like the first time. She's like, that's a rock. And like, no, grandma's candy. She's like and then she put one in her mouth and she'd pretend that she hurt her tooth. She's like, oh, she's like, it's candy. And I would just beam with like, I was that guy that just, she just thought it was so amazing. And I think I learned from them this power of joy. My grandfather was a fireman in San Francisco Bay for 40 years.

He worked their graveyard shift. He never put out a fire. I don't even know if he knew how to, but he knew how to. but he knew how to love people. And when I think now, they're in heaven, but I think of this legacy they left behind of like, I still, I go to Disneyland, I see the rock candy,

and I think of my grandmother. She thought I was a boss. And so we can build into our lives. You find somebody that's poured into your life, some joy and a worldview that's really engaging and very open. And if that consists with, is consistent with who God made you to be,

if that's not true, your thing, like for Maria to be with lots of people is not her thing. But I would say find your space in there and then just delight in that. And then take the small steps. For me, it was like taking a small step. I'm going to be a grandpa this week. Is that awesome? First time? Boom. First time. Oh, yeah. This is the best. Oh, I'm so excited about it. But I'm imagining that day when this like, are you Billy guy getting a grandkids running around? I do. See, well, so when this grandchild takes the first. step, you don't say like, well, I've seen better.

You'd be like, no. Like, that's awesome. And then when they're crawling around, you'd be like, dude, just walk. Like, you're just patient with that. And so I'm trying to think of those same things in the interactions I have with people to just say they're small step. You don't need a Bible verse for everything, but there's a beautiful one. It's Zachary 410.

It says that God delights in seeing our small beginnings. He just loves to see the work begin. And so if you've had somebody's listening and they have, have an ambition that they've been thinking about, man, take this first step. Like, there's something beautiful in that. And I just don't think that the world is grimacing at me. And I don't think it's grimacing at everybody else. You might get that feel from watching a bunch of media.

But if you've ever had watched somebody take a picture of someone else, the person taking the picture is smiling. Right. They're like, yes. And just like that first step as a kid, I just think God's smiling, you know. And I think there's some things that paint. him tremendously. What I'm trying to do, though, is not to be Jesus's lawyer. I want to be just available to people and hear and curious about that. And then for me, I'm just going to do what I

think is right. And that means like starting schools, which still cracks me up because my worst subject in school was school. But I'm actually pretty good at starting. Every time I want to start another school, I write a book. If I made cupcakes, like people would die. But a typo, like no big deal. So tell me, let's jump here on the work that you're doing. First, anybody who doesn't know, tell the story of Charlie and Kabi. Oh, man, that's crazy. In Uganda, there's a practice witchcraft in these witch doctors actually sacrifice little children because they believe the head or blood or private parts have these magical powers.

And so in the history of Uganda, nobody's ever taken on a witch doctor. because they're afraid of these guys. But right back to our beginning, what would you six? What if we weren't afraid anymore? And so there was a little boy that got attacked by the head of all the witch doctors and he actually survived. And so I went to Uganda. Their chief justice let us bring Uganda's first death penalty case. And we tried this case and Kabi goes away to Lazira maximum security prison. But the little boy is all torn up. A doctor. It's Cedar Sinai Medical Center, finds out about the boys. And he calls me up. And he says, Bob, you don't know me. My name is Randy. I can fix him. Like, buddy, you didn't hear what got cut off. You

can't fix that. And he said, I'm the head of surgery here. I can fix him. And so I drive up there and I meet him and he starts drawing on a napkin, like what he's going to do, which is way too much information. If they find that at DFW, I'm going to jail. Two guys drawing private on Totally. So, but I asked him, how much would that cost? And he said, it'd be staggering, but I'll do it for nothing. And so I'm like, I'm in. So I flew back to Uganda.

I found the kid. I went to court and became his legal guardian. And we flew back here for the operation. And on the way, Obama is the president. And we get a text message when we're in London. He says, we'd like to meet Charlie. And so we divert to D.C. and this kid that was standing. in the bush two days before is now standing in the Oval Office.

I've got him held up. He's reading the original emancipation proclamation. I'm telling little Charlie what that means. Well, one of the things that we thought in this attack that all of this stuff, because he's essentially a eunuch after the attack, and we thought all of this would, this would be the course of his life. And then it was about eight months ago. I think it's since the time I saw you last took him in for x-rays.

and these two things we thought weren't there, they're actually there. And so two weeks ago, we went back to Cedar Sine, they did an operation. He gets to be a dad. Wow. Is that crazy? Wow. Yeah. And so this idea of getting...

So he goes back. He's back and forth, back and forth. That's got to be... I don't want him to turn into a surfer. Yeah, I don't want him to turn into a surfer if he lived in San Diego. I wanted to turn into the president in Uganda. But there's something actually kind of beautiful. If we're kind of hoping for other people,

these things. And then you just get some skin in the game. A couple things will happen. Your life will get messier, right? Because then you've got all this. My problem, though, is I spent my whole life trying to get more and more comfortable. And comfortable people don't seem to understand the power of love as much. And so I'm trying to get less and less comfortable. I got a house and a car and I got all this stuff. And it's not a bad stuff. I'm really grateful for it. But I'm trying to just like dive into a little deep. end with people. So what we've decided, we just start schools. We've got one in Uganda. I've got one in Mogadishu, Somalia, and that is a pretty tense place. Nepal and India, we've got one in Afghanistan. And man, there's just a lot of ambiguity surrounding this. But the thing that is really present in my

mind is that God is indazzled when you go across an ocean. What wows him is when you go across the street. This whole idea of loving your neighbor. But when love has an agenda, then it didn't love anymore. So sometimes these conversations we're having with each other, there's an agenda. And I don't know, I don't have an agenda with you. And I know you don't have one with me. We're just two friends talking. That's what we need to have. More of those. No agenda. I just delighted to see you again. Right. And that's where it gets good. And you can actually talk maybe more about what you feel than what your position is on all that stuff. I'm feeling delight. I've wanted to be a grandpa since I was in junior high.

Like literally because I saw. You had a great grandpa. That's it. What if we're the ones that are known for that? Like these things that might be eccentric, those are the things that actually people remember. I got no left pockets in any of my pants. Literally,

if I put my phone in my left pocket right now to end up in my shoe. And the reason I did it, I cut out my left pockets because it's a reminder to me that our faith, our lives will be the, The sum of everything we're hanging on to, right pocket stuff, and everything we're willing to let go of. And so I've been trying to move stuff from my right pocket to my left pocket. And it's only 18 inches until Christmas time and pecan pie.

Then it's about 20. But there's this whole idea of constantly moving stuff. Has somebody wounded you? Somebody hurt your feelings. A parent, a loved one. Somebody let you down. They said something mean about you. What I've been trying to do instead of hanging on to that, I've been trying to move.

move at that 18 inches to the left pocket, let it go out. I think people, you go find your, if you're listening, go find some scissors. Get your pants off first, but like cut those pockets out. And there's something beautiful that will happen. These little reminders, it'll remind you of who you are. It's really amazing how, because it takes, it really takes work and not work that anybody sees, you know? Like, I, at one point in my life, I was really arrogant.

I mean, really much more than I am now, really arrogant. And all I did was change my signature. And I changed, I never signed my name with capital letters now. Oh, get out of town. I love that. I did that. And nobody knew. I never said that to anybody.

I just did all lowercase. And it was amazing because every time I have to sign a check. Every time I have to sign anything, it reminds me. You're not all that. Yeah. And wouldn't we do that with our kids? Like to, instead of talking to them about career, talk about the character. Like, who's the guy that you want to be?

Who's that young woman that you want to turn into? Tell me about him. Think of you plus 10 years. I'm like going to be 60 here in a couple weeks. And I'm pretty pumped about that too. Going to try to jump a dirt bike 60 feet. next time if you see me in a body cast if I got like 42 and a half it'll be that came a little short but the whole idea of to say to one another like

tell me about who you're turning into like not and a lot of us are a job or two behind who we've become because it was a perfect job at the time like I was a lawyer I'm capable of being a lawyer in five or six states I know how to pass bar exams but just because I'm capable of doing it doesn't mean I'm called to do it and so right now, I'm just like, I've got the time. I'm going to go start some schools. And it's not because I want to be known by people as that guy. I just go like, I got the time to do it.

But in about a week and a half, I'm going to be a grandpa. And what I saw is my grandparents were available to me, I'm going to be that guy. And then we just get to decide, like, just choose the person that you want to be, the man or woman you want to turn into and then just start angling stuff. You said to me, which I think is fascinating when you walked in, you said, Oh, it's been a good season. You talked about, you described time as a season, which I find, I find wonderful because I think we all do have seasons and we miss the turning of the leaves. Well sad.

And so we just keep going. No, the seasons are changing. And so it's okay to let go. of what you were and what you thought and and it's a new season in your life. Yes. And I love the idea that, uh, of being a new creation. I've spent like almost 60 long years being old Bob and but like I met new Bob like five or six hours ago.

I'm like, so who's he going to be? Like what's he good at? So it's really hard in today's world to, when I was, uh, 18, I did the best thing I could do. I didn't realize it at the time. I moved to the other side of the country. I grew up in Seattle. I moved to Washington, D.C. At 18, that's good.

Didn't know anybody, took a job out in D.C. knew nothing about it. Kind of a, you know, small town sheltered kid, just took a job. Boom, I'm there. Didn't realize until later when I came back home a few times later, I'm no longer what my family and friends had told me and I thought that I was.

I had the time to become me. I was different. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And there are people that are 50 that still are what everyone says they've always been. They still are, but it's not them. Yeah, that's who they used to be.

But we get this stuff on this kind of loop going. Like little Bobby Goff at eight years old was super insecure. He would be like do anything to just whatever it took to make everybody happy. Like that was that little Bobby Goff. And even at 60, that little boy like sometimes shows up on my door and knocks. And I think, where's that coming from? Like what's making me so insecure? What makes me feel like I need to validate, you know, my worth by getting somebody's acceptance?

And it doesn't make me angsty, but it's just worth a little bit of reflection to say, what's the return address on that? And then just update, you know, just like forward the mail to the new address and to say, so now I don't need to be that little kid anymore. So at least for me and I've been correct where this is wrong. or guide where this was my journey. God, my understanding of God, one of the three things I know, God, God loves me, God lives. I don't know what he looks like. I don't know where he lives.

I don't know anything. I don't know how he creates. I just know he loves me and he is a part of my life and I have access to him. That I know. We all do. But I didn't really believe. that earlier. And so I had to puff myself up.

Once I believed in God, God changes you to where you have the belief in the power of just going, you know what? I'm covered. I'm good. I'm going to go do this because I know no matter what happens, it's going to be good. It may not turn out the way I want it or

but I'm okay. People who are really one with God. Somebody dies in their life and they might have some sadness, but really the overwhelming feeling is, hooray, what a party is happening now on the other side of the veil. This is great. You're going home, you know. But without God, if you are somebody who you don't have God,

how do you balance the the power that I have access to universal power? You know what I mean? So you have that power. And yet the Judeo-Christian philosophy is, and at the same time, let it all go. And so it's that great razor-edge balance. if you don't have God, how could you do that? How do you?

I'm asking because you and I are both believers in God. Yeah. So how does somebody do that who says, you know what? I don't believe in God. Yeah. And I, but I want to be there without the God. Yeah, yeah. Totally.

I think that people just do the best they can. Really, we're just trying to make our way through this thing. And I know one thing that I want. reacted to early on is when people tell me what to do or what to believe, I'm like, oh, heck, no. People don't want to be told what to do. But there's a beautiful verse that's in Matthew who talks about, like they were asking the same question. It's like it's a teacher. Is Jesus a prophet? And then Simon Peter says, no, he's God. And one of the things that he said is don't tell anybody. I love that. You would make all the evangelicals be like, wait, what? But the whole idea is show people.

people what you believe. You don't need to tell people what you believe. And so there's something, if you have a faith, whatever it is, like, I don't know, express it in what you do. Galatians 5, 6th, it says the only thing that matters is faith expressed in love. And so I want to be that guy. I just, I don't need to be licking a bunch of return addresses and saying this is why or what you need to believe, but to just express what you believe in with love. And for some people, they say, no, that's just like, that's just too cotton candy. I'm like, and I'm down. And I'm down. with that like but here's the deal that it's working for me what I'm trying to do is to the things I'm certain about in in my faith I'm not trying to convince other people of I don't think the

verse that follows that after saying don't tell anybody said flesh and blood doesn't reveal it to you but the spirit and so when some people say like how do you believe in God I go like it just feels like it was something that it just clicked it just makes sense to me it wasn't like a guy looking for the right life raft it just makes sense to me. And I didn't grow up in the church. I'm not that guy. I actually found a Bible in the back of a bus when I was in high school and said it was a good book. I'm like, I could use a good book. And I'm looking through all these, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, like, same story. I'm like, average book at best. But then I got to the story is the 10 lepers. I didn't know they were

lepers. I'm like, why are they leaving? Sharks in the water. So, and it was like that the whole idea of living grateful lives. That, you know, 10 get healed. One comes back to say thank you. And Jesus's words, like, where's the other nine? And I want to be the one guy that comes back to just say thank you. To the people in my life that have teachers that have impacted me, people that have done acts of kindness towards me.

If we can live these kind of grateful lives, and that isn't cotton candy, that's real life stuff. That's the stuff that will outlast us. I want to be known to my friends as the. guy that says thank you. Best, best spiritual day I've had with a group of people was with a group of preachers all from different faiths, started the day with them being a little standoffish with each other because they were all in the same community, but all from different churches.

And they had never gotten together before. And we spent the day serving. By the end of the day, they were great. friends and they were talking, they were laughing about, you're a sheep stealer. You're going to steal my sheep, blah, blah, blah. They were laughing about it. And one guy said, what are we doing? We bring our people together in these separate buildings and we stay inside every Sunday when

this is the best church I've attended in forever. Yeah. You know, going out and doing it. And too many of us, I think, don't do it. We attend church. We don't tend. Yeah, one of the things that realize that we actually are the church. I was talking to a guy and said, I'm so mad at the church. I'm like, I'm not going anymore. I'm like, you are the church. You can't quit the church. And that whole idea to like, you and I, you know, together two or more or gathered, say like, you know, we're the church. And then I'd love that they gather and some people wave their arms and some people wear cloaks and it'll be like whatever it is that lights you up. But to just be curious about that, to be curious rather than critical or to say that, you know, we've got something that you don't have and all that to say, that was what Jesus was constantly doing. Everybody thought they had something figured out. And I think that's why eternity is going to take so long. It's going to be this revealing. You used to think this.

But it was really that these people or these behaviors or these social issues. And you guys are saying that. I think we're going to be spending a lot of time unlearning a lot of the things that we thought we were positive about. And we go like, oh, dang. So I want to get like a head start on that one. And to realize for the people listening, wherever they are in faith, just realize what you've got. I tried a case. And the person that won, they got a cashier check at the end of the day for $1 million.

billion dollars and they put it in their pocket. I am not kidding. They went golfing. And they were out there golfing. The president of the bank started calling and they were like busy golfing. So they're like, yeah, whatever. He called about 10 times and he finally gets through. He's like, what's the deal? And he says, do you have the check? And he's like, yeah, yeah, it's on my pocket. It says, open up the check. They had made a mistake. They made it for one billion dollars. Oh my gosh. My first thought is go buy Maui. Right. But that idea to realize we don't know what we got in our pocket and for people to realize the value that they have and that the validity of the things that they have loved and they've been a little hesitant to express love or gratitude.

I'm like, go cash that check. They literally don't carry it around your pocket. Open that thing up and say, like, I actually have a tremendous amount of love and gratitude to come to. to like to release into the world. It's like stone soup. Remember that kid's story? Right? Everybody throws in what they've got and at the end,

everybody's fed. And I think we could have authentic conversations with each other about what do you want? The first thing they'd hear from me is I'd want to be a grandpa. And then they'd celebrate with me that I'm going to be a grandpa. And if somebody said, what I really want is to make the major leagues. I want to be a pitcher for insert here, whoever it is. they'd be, they wouldn't be disappointed at them because they didn't make the majors.

They would just be delighted as they made those small steps, those first steps towards it. They'd say, don't despise these small beginnings. And I think people that live lives with gratitude and are tremendously curious, get there. I'm a note taker. Like, I bet I send myself every day 150 emails. It's just things I'm thinking about. Like, I actually read that we're going through Earth, me and you right now, Glenn, We're moving through the universe at 25,000 miles per hour.

If you ever had a day, you didn't think you were getting much done. You're making moves. But to just be curious about, like, what's going on around you? And, like, man, that is now we got a ballgame. So I think the lesson that we sometimes miss is when Christ says, come to me as little children, that once we stop being curious, once we start, when you're, there's a great line in the movie Glass that has just come out.

And it's about this guy who is, one guy is schizophrenic, one guy is, you know, breakable. His bones are like glass, blah, blah, blah. It's kind of a comic book kind of thing. And he says to the guy who's schizophrenic to one of the, one of his personalities, which is nine, he said, you don't realize how special you are. Now, saying that to a schizophrenic.

And he said, what's so special about me? And he said, you're nine forever, right? Yeah. You will forever see the world as it really is. And that's kind of what he's telling us. And I think it's on two fronts. I think when you stop being curious, when you stop seeking, when you start saying, no, that's not the way you age. Isn't that true?

Right. Yeah. And I think when you just said it's forever learning through eternity, I think the Lord is telling us, come to me as a child because we have built up 50 years, 70 years, a hundred years. years of, no, it's like this. And if we are set in that old mindset, which has just now cemented everything that's true, he's got to undo all that. So when we get to the other side, if he's like, I don't know, if he's a woman and half, you know, half giraffe, I'm not expecting that. But if that's what he is, that's what he is. And coming to him as a child, a child would say, you got those like knobby things on your head like a giraffe. You kind of look like a giraffe in a dress

where we would say, you're not God. You can't be God. I know what God looks like. I know who God is. Where's the beard? Yeah, and I think you can inform your faith. If faith is important to you, you can inform it. I mean, there's some scriptures out there you can read. There's some people that are wise. What I'm been trying to do is surround myself not with smart people, but with wise people, right? Because smart people are a dime a dozen. Wise people, I've noticed, stay really curious about things. They're curious about their faith. They're curious about their friends. Are curious about their character. Did you know a banana is a berry and a strawberry isn't? Wow. Mind blown. But that whole idea to

to just be curious about things. Say, look, what does that have to do with your faith? I'd say everything. Because people that are curious about what's going on will be curious about people that are hurting. And to say, is there any way it can get some skin? Or they'll be curious about somebody who's really affluent to say, I wonder how life is working too.

Not with judgment, but to just say, hey, I think that's terrific. I wonder what you're going to do next. Like, I wonder what your next big step will be. I heard somebody say the other day, you know, searching for God, I'm searching for God. Why can't? I can't get a bead on God. I'm searching for God. And I'm sitting in church and somebody is talking and they said, you'll find God in the midst of human suffering. And it kind of goes back to what you were talking about earlier about you're pretty comfortable.

Yeah, that we're getting more and more desperate. And it's not our, it's not our suffering. I mean, he may be there in the midst of our human suffering. too, but we really want to find him. Go look for someone else's suffering. Yes. And you'll find him there for you and your suffering. It's weird how you get more out of helping others. It's almost like you can't use it to help yourself.

Yeah. When you're helping others, it all of a sudden helps you. It's not interesting. So the plan is instead of when you take all of the focus off of yourself and just to say small or big, whatever it is that you're doing, then you start. start, you aren't just looking for God's plan for your life, because I hear that all the time. The plan, I was actually, it was before the invasion that liberated Mosul. And there, all the Peshmerga army had surrounded the city.

And I went with a whole bunch of medals. And we just started putting medals on the chest of these brave Peshmerga fighters. Didn't ask for permission. I just wanted to let them know I was grateful for what they were doing. That in their war. That's like somebody else's. but they really said, like, I'm actually going to do this thing. And that person that's like heading up this whole deal, he says,

do you want to see what our battle plane looks like? I'm like, yes. It's when we go inside this tent. I think there's going to be satellite images and all that stuff. There's a sandbox. I am not kidding you, Glenn. It was six by eight feet. And there's a little green army men.

And that was the plan. I thought there'd be more to it. And I think when people are saying, like, God, what's the plan? for my life. Matthew 25 it says, I was hungry and you fed me. I was thirsty and he gave me something to drink. I was a stranger. I was creepy and you invited me in.

I was sick and you clothed me. I was naked. And I was in jail and he came. I just want to do that. So what I'm trying to do is not necessarily across the street or across the ocean, but across the street to say, is there somebody that has a need that I can help with?

And there's something beautiful and you don't need to make a hoodie every time you meet somebody's need. I have a neighbor as this huge restaurant chain all over the place. And he takes out the neighbor's garbage on Monday. That was really hard for me because I don't know. I'm

better at giving. Many people are better at doing things for people than receiving that. That was really difficult until about the fifth year that he kept doing that. And he would never make a big deal. It wasn't just my garbage. It was everybody's. And he's the big CEO guy.

But he knows how to love his neighbor didn't make a hoodie didn't make it there's no newsletter that goes out he just doesn't and that's those things that that seem to last those things that are just beautiful they're the simplest stories that just are heart warm he go like that's the guy I want to be because you have to get on an airplane go someplace else we have to end this but I want to ask leave with this explain this one thing alcoholics say one day at a time But you say, I'm trying to be more like Christ 30 seconds at a time. Yeah, bingo.

Just in the way that we encounter people, the way that you interact with people. Like I've heard somebody say, I'm going to follow Jesus forever. I'm like, dude, I'm just trying to do it for the next 30 seconds. Literally, I had a person ask me, I was speaking somewhere, and they said, are you a friend of Bill Ws? And I'm like, I don't know. You didn't know what it was. Yeah, it was just, I think perhaps maybe something I said reminded them of, you know, the steps in alcohol, cononymous.

And it was just such a kind way instead of saying, are you in recovery? Instead, are you a friend of Bill W.? Because if I was in recovery, I would know who he was. And I would say that's just such a beautiful example of treating people with kindness and respect. Because if there was something big, they didn't tee bone me with that. They said, hey, are you friend of Belduvius? And then when I said, oh, who's he? They didn't go into this big, long explanation.

They said, I was just curious. And there's something about that. Like, the words have that much power to them. But they're kind words. They aren't the big, loud words. You can have a life filled with conviction. I mean, I'm resolute. I mean, witch doctors who kill kids.

You will never be seen again, ever. But that idea to say to the same. witch doctors. If you guys need to learn how to read and write, I'll start your school. And we don't teach him how to be witch doctors. They already know. We teach him how to read and write. And there's something beautiful about it. It'll be that quarter of a twist. And that's the 30 seconds at a time. This idea to encounter people assume that there's a guy underneath a hat. And there's a reason why he's doing what he's doing. Whether he's mean as a rattlesnake or really kind or weepy or that there's a thing going on

and to take the time to find out who they are a little bit, you don't have to psychoanalyze them, but to just assume I, you know, you and I have met a couple times, I just assume you're a guy that loves people and that you've had some really good days and a couple bad ones and that you've had some things that you're hoping

for and a couple things have been very shattering as have I. Yet, here we are sitting at a table together. We're just two men. We're sharing some time. No agenda. Just love each other and be fully present. So thank you. It really honors me. Just get some time with you. Thank you. Let's do it again. Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass

us on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.