The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 5 | Gene McGuire | The Glenn Beck Podcast

Episode Date: October 6, 2018

Glenn sits down with Gene McGuire who served 34 years, 9 months, and 15 days incarcerated in a Pennsylvania prison for a murder he did not commit. Gene tells the story of a mistake he made and the events that followed which eventually led to a life sentence without parole. Despite impossible odds, Gene experienced a transformative change that altered the course of his life and many others for the better. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We are living in a more chaotic and confusing time than ever before. The lines between right and wrong and good and evil. Men and women are so blurred, sometimes I don't even know which way is up. It's not a new concept that things aren't black and white. We know there's always been a gray area, and they'll continue to be gray areas. But we really have to start being more careful when we're claiming to know empirical facts. or empirical truths, because there's so much information that you'd have to know and sort through to be that confident that you're right.

Today's podcast is really interesting. Today, I'm going to introduce you to a man who was convicted of murder that he didn't commit. Now, was he perfect? No, but he didn't commit the crime that he was sentenced to life for. His name is Gene McGuire. He finally got out early, but I have to tell you, he had every reason to be angry and hold a grudge, but something happened to him along the way that changed his life for the better. We talk about the mistakes that were made that nearly ruined Gene's life

and the way that he was able to find forgiveness and use his life and story into ways of encouraging others. I don't remember what the occasion was, but I was having dinner with some friends and one of them said, oh, you have to meet. Have you met Jean? And I said, no. Oh, you have to meet him. And they told me your story. And I said, can you call him? Can he come to dinner? And you came to dinner. And your story is one of the, it's the best, horrible, yet unbelievably positive stories I have ever heard. Wow. Tell me, Gene. 1977. How old were you?

17. Sophomore in high school. Finishing up the year. Pretty good athlete, football track. Girlfriend? Not at the time. And went out drinking one night with an older cousin. He was 24 and went out the door. against my mother's wishes pretty much, but we sweet talked her.

And about 1130 at night had no business being out that late. Were you, did you know your cousin was kind of a bad guy? Duel. He had been in prison before. He had been out. But one of the things I had great respect for him was because he treated my mother so well. And since my mother went through some hard relationships, my cousin always came to a rescue.

So I had a fond respect. I had a great respect for a man who treated my mother well. So he's behind the wheel of the car? A stepbrother, an older stepbrother drove us. Okay. We left the three of us, left the kitchen table, drinking, playing pool, playing cards, went and shot some pool. My cousin wanted to shoot some pool.

So we went to a local tavern and 20 minutes or so into shooting pool, drinking shots. He turns and says, I'm going to rob this place, to our surprise. and he was serious. Did you know he was serious? Yeah, I believe I did. And the idea was, look, we were not going to do it. If you're going to do it, we'll leave.

So the plan was to leave the bar in the car, drive down the street, park, let him come back and we'll wait for you. So you were a getaway car. Yeah. And you were accomplices. We knew he was going to rob the bar. And so he walked back up into the bar. and by that time I got out the car

and I stood in a parking lot somewhere near the and he didn't come out right away and we heard some banging we walked up to the bar and he had murdered the owner. He had stabbed the owner to death using bottles. Oh my gosh. And he just went crazy so we yelled to him to stop. I did

and my stepbrother and I we hung around a little bit. He said come in to help find some money. We walked in and about 10 minutes he found a box, found about $1,000 of cats. and took it and my stepbrother left. He left and went home.

I left what my cousin went to New York City. I knew I was in trouble. The significance, the weight of it, it didn't hit me until I sobered up. When you saw a dead man. A woman. Dead woman. Yeah.

It was the owner of the bar. What went through your head? Well, intimidated, scared, caught up in that with my cousin. And it was dark. It was behind a counter. Any thought of,

we have to call the police? No, I was too into it as far as I'm following him. I'm part of that. I'm following him. I love my cousin a lot. I just had a,

I had a, I had a respect for him and I had a like a as a hero type sadly dysfunctionally how does how does

I mean I'm trying to get into your frame of mind here on um were you a bad kid no I wasn't I was high school I wasn't a good student but I was a good athlete I was in school all the time not something you would I mean you wouldn't have thought about beating

anybody up or no I mean I had some school fights and stuff like that, but, um, you weren't a juvenile thug. No, no. Okay. I grew up on a dairy farm and worked on a dairy farm and, uh, my cousin came came for that weekend, uh, from New Jersey. And I lived in northeast Pennsylvania, so he came. And so how much, how much shock were you in? Because this seems like if this, if I, and maybe I react exactly the same way where I walk in and I'm like, oh, okay, I'm not going to call the police, but I mean, I think you'd just be in shock. You didn't expect, you didn't, you didn't, I'd no way, never think that your cousin would have been, never, never. Never. Never crossed my mind.

It would have gone as far. When I went to the bar to shoot pool with them, I thought it was cool. It was a timeout, you know, it was like getting outside the house. It was fun and it just snowballed from there. And no inkling before. that he wanted to even rob the place. No. Not at all. So how you go to New York City. Go to New York City, walking the streets.

He said he had a plan to get away, he said he had a plan to get away, do something, and I was just kind of following. I was just in a following mode, really. If I can just put you in my mindset, I was just following him. And it wasn't good, but that's what choice of me. So walking the streets, he was shooting a hair. He used the money to buy dope. And I found myself in shooting galleries up in Spanish Harlem and looking around and people

laying around and what you'd see in movies. I was right there. It was just overwhelming. Walking the streets, no clue what was going on, sleeping, slept overnight in a hotel. It's 1977. There's no cell phones. There's nothing. It's a different world.

Yeah. It's still a still world of people listening to me. music on AM radio. Yeah. And so the next day, um, notified my, my parents that I was turning myself in. And my cousin said, you can run with me or you can turn yourself in. And I, I knew I knew I wanted to go home. I knew that wasn't for me. I mean, I sobered up. I realized that I was in severe, you know, serious trouble, not, I had no idea what faced. what I was facing, but you were willing to face it. Yeah. So I came back and what'd your mother say? The first thing, the first thing, so I took a bus back. They put me on a bus. The police put me on a

bus to turn myself. So you turn yourself up in New York? Yes, in the Port Authority. And they came and they said to you, G. McGuire. I said, yeah, you turn yourself in, yes. They were looking for my cousin. My cousin continued to run. So I get on a bus and did you know where he was or where he was. No, he just took off. And he, so I'm on a bus, and I get back, and the police come on a bus with my mother. And my mother just, the first thing she says, tell the truth. Eugene, tell the truth. She was distraught.

She looked, oh, my goodness. Her face was distraught and just lost. I can still see that in your eyes, the pain. Yeah. So we get, I was, I was arrested formally and taken to the Tunkanek, Pennsylvania State Police Barracks and gave a statement there. And for some reason, you know, I was talking about this the other day to some people, I said, I really thought, tell the truth and go home. That didn't happen. You know, my mother was there.

Does your mom think that? I don't know. I think she was just in shock with every detail that I told of what would happen. I think she was further and further. But there were no details you did not know. You didn't even know why you were in the bar. You and your stepbrother did say, okay, we'll meet you after you robbed the place. Yeah. Was there any other detail that incriminated you in any way other than? Knowing, well, the felony homicide, knowing that there was a felony going on during a homicide or homicide happened during a felony. And you knew about the felony? I knew about the felony, which was the robbery.

Yeah. Okay. So you go in and you tell the truth to the police. And they say, stand up. you're under arrest for the murder of Isabel Nagy. And it's just like, what went through your mind? I think immediately the weight of it, also, the embarrassment. I didn't know the victim in any personal way.

I've been to her bar before and drank as a 17-year-old. I've been able to go in there. So I just superficially just high and by. But my mother, the embarrassment, family, and then just trying to comprehend what every step was after they said stand up, cuff me and started booking me and fingerprinted me. Just taking one step at a time. And knowing I wasn't going home,

and I heard the police talking, to state police talking about taking me to the juvenile center. detention. Tell me a little bit about her first before we move on. The victim. Victim, 60-year-old single, a woman, no children, and she owned a bar. It was called the Marine Room Inn at the time, Lake Winola, Pennsylvania. That's about all I know. I know a sister. She had a sister, and she has some nephews. They were jumping ahead. They were in. my hearing when I was released. And there's a story behind that, too, that I found out when I was released.

So, um, when you, when you said her name a few minutes ago, your eyes welled up and, um, you, they got very red again. Mm-hmm. Um, is there a day you, you don't think of her or do you, I mean, what, it's been decades now. Yeah. It's really. 41 years. Not left you.

No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. So they book you, they fingerprint you. Mm-hmm. Then what happens? Transport me about a 30-minute ride to juvenile detention in Luzerne County. Never even heard of it. I never didn't know where I was going.

So all of us. Just a few days before, you're thinking about sports at school. Yeah. Yeah, working out, training. What were you going to do for life? What were you? What path did you at that time think you were gone? There was a couple things.

I liked welding. I took some shops welding, something like that. But I also had thought about going to Marines. It was a good friend of mine, Rob Mancuso, and we were talking about that throughout our sophomore year about the possibility of going into Marines. So now you're on the bus. And at that point, what do you think your life is going to be?

When you're on the bus and you're being transferred to juvenile, you haven't. What are you thinking this is going to be bad, but I'm still going to have my life? Well, yeah, I think I meant personally, I think I shut down and just, I just aware of, I was in a car, this trooper car. So I was just kind of being aware of the moment. I didn't want to think about what I was going to face in Juvenile Center. I heard my cousin talk about stories about prison and rapes and violence and stabbings and stuff when he was in there. Some of the stories he had told me. So I had no idea, but I was trying not to think, honestly think about it.

But I remember just looking at the driver, the screen that separated us. looking down at the cuffs and the belt I was wearing just for that moment. I didn't want to think ahead. You get to the prison or the juvenile dissension. Yeah. It's about 12.30 at night. I had been in the police station of about six to eight hours

and then they took me to them. So knock on the door, metal door. They opened it up and of course it's night and there's only the officer inside dressed in plain clothes, big set of keys. And I noticed that. And he brought us in. And they set me down.

And then they took the shackles off me, took the cups off me. And they shook my hand. And they left. And he proceeded to take me in and process me. A shower, a search, all that. Give me some clothes. Put me in a cell. How long were you living there?

I spent nine months. And that's during your trial? during, yeah, the hearing. The hearing. Yeah. Because there was no trial. There was no trial. Tell me you have an attorney.

They gave me a public defender. Uh-huh. Because you were poor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what does he say? When you're first, are you thinking,

I'm going to have some hope here when he comes in? Yeah. Yeah, no, I really did. And he was a nice guy. He was a young guy, good-looking guy. And I remember him sympathizing somewhat with me about drinking. He says, I know what it's like to have some drinks and you get drunk and being young. And, you know, so.

But then we'll go through the story and all that. And then I think about four, maybe five visits, four or five visits with him over the period of time. Within 90 days, he gives me a recommendation to the best, to plead guilty, your best thing is to plead guilty to murder, open charge of murder. It would not rise higher than second degree, but everything else, second, third degree, and manslaughter was be open and that you could be out in 10 years. I couldn't even comprehend two years, but I still remember the conversation, plead guilty, testify against your cousin, and in, and in let the judge set the degree of guilt.

What was juvenile detention like? Was it as bad as what your cousin said? No, no. It was only 15 cells. 15 rooms, cells. And most of the inmates were in there were for really petty stuff. Yeah, okay. But I remember when I came in,

there was probably six, eight guys in there. And you get up in a morning, and you know, you make your bed and all that and you go eat and come back and there's not a lot to do, you know, a little day room. And someone asked me what I was in there for and I said I was in for murder. Well, about an hour later, the staff,

they called me in the room and said, we're going to lock you up because you told somebody that you were in for murder and we can't let them, these young juveniles or these other people know that we have a person for homicide.

So they were like really protective of me letting them know. So I'm locked up for 10 days until they finally said, okay, we'll give you another chance. Don't tell anybody while here. You tell them that you're stole bike, that you, whatever. Right. So you go into the hearing. I go to the hearing. And you're going to do what your mother said. I plead guilty. Enter a plea guilt. Your mother in the courtroom? mother's in the courtroom, sister. What do you remember about that? That particular moment, I don't remember a whole lot.

So you have to stand up and you have to say guilty, or does your attorney do that? My attorney does it. Okay. And that's one of the things that I do remember. I was numb through it and not knowing exactly what to say or do. So he did a lot of the, you know, yeah. Judge says okay. Mm-hmm.

And then does a sentence come right away? No. Some six months go by. And so it was three months after my arrest. I entered plea guilt. Six months later, I go the day before my 18th birthday. And you are, you've testified against your... Testified against my cousin during his hearing.

We had separate hearings. Uh-huh. And... You've done everything that the state has. He played guilty. He, yeah, he played guilty. He assumes his idea that I had very little. the other guy had little. So I go in and

it was March 8th, 1978 and I'm stood there and they read off the charge again very embarrassing. I mean painful knowing that a life was taken. Her family there? Yeah. Not for me. My cousin. I think most of the was on Bobby.

Yeah. Not mine, that I know of. Yeah. But aware of, you know, the community and all that. So I plead guilty and then I sit down, some more conversation between the DA and all this, you know. I stand up and a judge sentence me to life without the possibility of Pearl, my natural life.

Still thinking 10 years, which really, wasn't the case. When he said life, were you, did it set in then? Or were you thinking, no, there's going to be a way to get out? No, it didn't set in. I thought I'm still on track. I'm going to do what I have to do, whatever it requires to come out to. When did it hit you? I go to the state correctional institution the next day, the 18th birthday. I come into Camp Hill, Pennsylvania and I remember walking in and you're no longer a juvenile you're in I'm in I'm now prison I'm in an adult facility going from 15 cells to 2,600 or so and how terrified was it it it it wasn't gripping terrified but it's it's scary and you're intimidated and so right

away I put on you know I'm going to put on this facade that I'm a tough guy I'm not I'm not scared you know I I keep my head up and so you go through the process. The early process is quite easy. You're under watching guard. You're going through medical exams. You're under key a lot, your first 30 days evaluation. So your problems come afterwards once you get into population. But I remember meeting some guys right away.

They say, hey, young buck, how much time you're doing? And I'm like, oh, I'm doing life. No, I said I'm doing 10 years. And they say, no, you're not. And I said, you're doing life. Like, gosh, you could die. And so, no. See, you're on the list, lifers list.

Then they had a list of guys doing life. And he said, you're on, you're going to die in here like the rest of us. You're not getting out. And so that comes like, hmm. So I started asking questions. And I got back on the phone. I went to the law clinic. You know, the prison has a law clinic with volunteers to help out.

And I started talking to them. And they said, you have a life sentence. without parole, you'd have to, the only way you could change that is to appeal your case. So you want to call your attorney and ask him to appeal your case. Didn't your attorney say something? When he said, you know, it would be 10 years, when he's, when the judge said life, no parole, the attorney knew what that meant. Did he not say, dude, I am really sorry.

Boy, I miscalculated here. Nothing, no. No, he didn't say anything. There was never any conversation that, other than, I remember, during, I remember, it was, I felt bad about this, but during, right after they sentenced me, he gave a statement, and I think it's in my transcripts, but he said, yes, Judge, there's a life, there was a life taken. It was a heinous crime. It was staff, but there's a life here that was wasted. And I, and I kind of felt uncomfortable,

even at 17 that you, you know, I saw my life. Yeah, I was going to prison, but I remember him. That was his kind of close. I remember that comment. And you were embarrassed because you're still alive. Yeah. Yeah. So. So you go back to talk to the attorney.

Yeah. And within about 15 minutes on the phone, he gives me every reason why not to. He said, I could receive first degree. He said, I would get more time. And with all that conversation going on, totally ignorant, really. I was intimidated, and I had 15 minutes, hung up the phone, and I walked out that law clinic and went back to myself. And I just said, well, I'll do my time. In my mind, I said, I'll do my time, whatever it takes. Also, I heard that there's an other avenue for life sentence inmates in Pennsylvania.

It's through the commutation board, through the governor, the board of pardons, and it's a commutation process. So I set my heart on that. I began to look toward that. It's the only other avenue other than dying. And you're going to be a model prisoner there. I'm going to do what I have to do. I wanted to get a job. I wanted to get some, a GED, I wanted to get my high school diploma, and then also get some,

I wanted to talk to somebody, you know, say, try to figure out how a 17-year-old ends up doing life without parole. And so that was kind of my initial, goal setting when I went in prison. You know, when you first told this story to me, and I know this is true, that you have had,

you know you've been forgiven. And do you? Yes. Yes. You know you've been forgiven. But yet you're this telling with me, I'm seeing

deep wounds in you still. Well, it's painful to realize that I'm alive and the only thing I can do is live my life serving others in that place. So you're in, you're now saying, okay, well, I'm going to hope for something else. How bad does prison become for you? Initially, the fights,

had a guy walk up to me. and blow some kisses at me early on. And it turned into a big fight and resulted in going to a hole. What's that? Solitary. And kind of dealing with all that and getting out and then being confronted with those guys again and them shaking my hand and saying, you're a cool white boy. You'll never have any problems with us again because I was willing to fight.

So after that, just a struggle of being isolated, you know, in the prison system from society. It is the whole. What is isolation? What is solitary confinement like? You're left in a locked cell, not seeing anybody, but you're locked in a cell. 23 hours a day, 24 hours a day. You're out for a shower.

You're fed inside a cell. Nobody talks to you. You can yell to other inmates, but you can't really see, you don't see them. You're not face-to-face, cells are back-to-back. But you're alone with your thoughts, your thought process. Which has to be hell. Yeah. And if you don't have a good thought process, which I didn't when I first started, it is hellish.

It's straining. Did you grow up religious? Catholic school early on. But you didn't have a... No. First second grade, went to church. Parents divorced and my mother moved this away. And church. So for me, growing up was church and then in the bar with my folks.

And some change and jukebox, yourself aboard. And then church and then back to the bar. So religion. faith, religion, I would say religion, and life didn't add up. It didn't, it didn't, it didn't, it wasn't together. When did you, when did you start saying, okay, if there is a God, I need a God. Right now, I need God. I was about, I, oh, there was a couple occasions, when I was 21 years old, I had already dove into some meth, into prison system. In prison. Yeah.

You're doing me. Yeah. So I've met up a couple guys that had drug businesses on the outside. They were doing life like me and some doing a lot of time like me. And they just, they had access to meth, prescription medications. How do you do that? How does that, I mean, you get into the prison through visits and work release or work guys, guys go outside the fence and work and you can bring it in. There was very little security at the time as far as there weren't drug dogs.

there weren't your analysis weekly, as there are now. Yeah, it was... Yeah, so... In 1980. Yeah. So, involved in the meth, involved in some coke. And I remember doing meth one night, and I had gotten a letter from a Christian girl.

And she was like a 10-page letter from him back, and it had a lot of scripture in her. And I remember this scripture, it said, that if you believe in your heart that Jesus died and you confess with your mouth, you'll be safe. And I remember reading it over and over and over and again. And I just remember getting on my knees. And I was 20, 21.

And I just said, God, I'm sorry for participating in a homicide. I'm sorry for the pain of Isabelle Nagy. And I remember saying her name and just asking her to forgive me, asking God to forgive me. Crying, crying, crying, crying. Is this the first time that you... This is the first time that I ever even opened my mouth to say anything to Jesus, to God. I had no clue.

I had a Bible. I read it. Once every six months, I read it. It was a couple of verses I liked. It was poetic poetry. And I remember it was about three, four in the morning. And I was speed. I was wide awake.

And I remember looking in a mirror after. after that incident. I got off my knees, and I felt like I got safe. I felt like some weight came off of you. Yeah, I really did. Something happened. And I remember looking in a mirror,

looking in this little five-by-seven plastic mirror they give us. And my eyes were different. My eyes weren't like little pin dots from speeding from the meth. And I remember, man, I just got safe. So I wrote her. I said, hey, I just, accepted the Lord and I said I feel wonderful well by the morning my buddies come and we start getting high again and from that point on I just never followed the Lord I never went to church

never heard the word but for another couple years I had a I had a respect for the Lord I mean I had a respect when I heard the name Jesus being used because of that moment I think so I think so I think God did something in my heart that day. I wasn't living for him. I was still getting high, but I remember seeing a guy with a cross upside down. And I told him, I said, turn it around, and I'll rip it off you. I just, I said, it's wrong. I said, don't.

And of course, you know, but that was my attempt to evangelize. As you being a good Christian. I'll rip it off your neck. And then 86, 1986, 1986, I was 12. I had been asking some of the staff members. I had a nice job. I was an institutional mail carrier. So I was in the offices exchanging mail.

And I was going in and these couple ladies in the medical department. I like going in there talking to them. It was a real peaceful place. I'd go and sit down and we just talked. And I told him, I said, you know, I said, I have a, I told him I have an alcohol problem. I've been drinking, I've been making my own, which is true. which is true, but I didn't tell them I was doing meth or putting a needle in my arm and shooting meth to that point. So they said, hey, there's, did you hear about the prison invasion program revival going on this weekend at the church?

And I'm like, no. I heard that for my meth dealer. So they say, you need to go. You need to sign up and go. So I signed up and I went on Friday night reluctantly, but I kind of, it was intimidating because church, you know. Yeah. But I went. I'm a recovering alcoholic.

I haven't to put a needle in my arm. Right. But you don't, there's something about feeling like I don't belong here with these people. Yeah. Yeah. And so I walk in and there was a hundred men. It was very organized. There was a hundred men from the outside community had come into the prison.

They spent all day Friday morning walking around. They had the tethers and the wristbands. And they would just share. something with you about the gospel, invite you over to the night service. And so that happened for me. Monday, there was a guy walking around saying, hey, I was an alcoholic and Jesus changed my heart. Hey, I was an alcoholic, Jesus changed my heart. I don't drink no more or another. And he seemed to follow me around the institution. I was on the block, cell block, he was there. I went to the yard, to work out, he was there. And intentionally. Yeah, yeah. So he was hunting me down.

Yeah. So I went Friday night. I walked into the chapel. and there was music going on. They had teen challenge testimonies. They had worship, and they had a gauntlet of men in line, and they were all shaking your hand, telling you, God loves you, we love you, we're glad you here about. You go from a world that has got to be pretty hard where you're a Christian act,

because I'll rip that off your neck. You're shooting up drugs into that world did it feel real to you? Did it feel genuine? Because you could, a jaded person would walk in and go, oh, you, please. Yeah.

No, it felt real. I didn't know anybody there. I didn't know any of the inmates that were there. And it was that type of, you know, I didn't, that wasn't my crew. That wasn't my crowd. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was really a fish out of water.

And I went in there. But I, men like yourself and like everybody else, they were just shaking my hand and welcome me. So I walked in and I went and found a seat. And the music continued of saying people worship in and then they sat down. And I remember the pastor got up and all I remember that night, the pastor, he got up and he said, Jesus died for your sins and rose again and he loves you, something like that, basically. and everybody claps and roars and he said real men make commitments real men make commitments

and I sat there and I was like man why is he looking right at me why is he like and that's kind of like leaning behind the head but as he spoke and he shared I felt like man he's talking to me I left that night without making the commitment I went back I struggled that night sleeping and, you know, I knew I wasn't right. Yeah. I wasn't right. And I wasn't where I was supposed to be. I went back Saturday night.

Again, Saturday morning, men were catching me on the walkway in the yard. Hey, do you know Jesus? No. Saturday I walk in. Same thing. It's a hype in air. There's music, loud music, worship, singing testimonies, teen challenge. Guys from Teen Challenge, these kids were talking about shooting one another drugs.

And I'm like, I can relate to some of that. and how Jesus changed your life. And then again, Jesus died, rose again for you, eternal life. Real men make commitments. And just, man, I've never made a commitment in life. I quit everything. Everything that got tough school, I quit, I went back.

Some things I finished, some things I didn't, relationships. So I'm sitting there at the end, and I don't make a commitment, But now there's a time of mingling and fellowship music playing. And people keep walking up to me and saying, hey, do you know Jesus? I'm like, no. They're like, have you made a commitment tonight? And I'm like, no. So in a room of about 300 men, I was bouncing my eyes around.

So if I saw you looking at me, I would look well. Don't come over here and ask me now. Right, right, right. I hear someone behind me, how are you doing tonight? And I turn around and there's this guy from the outside. And he says, have you made a commitment? I was like, I can't get away from it. I said, no, but I know some Christians.

And he said, okay, he said, wait right here. So he turns like 30 seconds and gives me his card. His name is Larry Titus. He said, hey, my name is Larry Titus. And if you need anything, give me a call. And I was like, he said, yeah, you need some shoes. You need a Bible. You need some money.

Just give me a call. And I'm like, can I ask you a question? He said, yeah. I said, you are a Christian? He said, yeah, I'm a Christian. And I said, well, how long you've known Jesus? He since I was four years old. And I said, you've known Jesus since you're four.

He said, yeah, I knew God called me to be a missionary at five. Wow. And I was like, it made me, not in condemnation, but I knew I was a big zero. I wasn't where I was supposed to be. And so he left, I left. When you asked him that, was it, when you said, Are you a Christian?

Was it because here's this stranger who just gave me a card and said, hey, I'll buy stuff for you if you need it, buy shoes? Yeah, I was like, are you a Christian? I didn't know what else to say. And he just like, he said, you need a book, you need some shoes, you need some clothes, you know, and I really don't even know where that question came from. So you are feeling like, you know, like all of us feel when you meet somebody who's really, you know, seems to be all.

together and you're like, what have I done with my life? Right. And I'm thinking this guy. And truth is, there was the preceding months, I had been walking the prison yard looking up. I still remember looking up in the sky and wondering if this is like one of those globes that you shake in the snow. And I said, is there a God? And I would say, is there a real God? Is there someone that really cares about us? Is someone overseeing us? And I just had that recurring thought whenever I'd walk to prison yard by myself, I'd get by myself. But you were not like reading the scriptures and doing all the stereotypical Christian movie things. No, not at all. Not at all. I was getting high right up pretty much to the time.

So he leaves, I leave and I go back and I can't sleep. I'm waking up every hour. And I'm sitting on the edge of my bed and I'm like, man, I want to be a Christian. I want to be a Christian. I want to be a Christian, but I don't know how, and I don't know if I can in that sense. Can I really live the life? Why did you want to be a Christian? I just... What did that mean to you? A better life is the best I can say.

I saw a couple guys, my friend Warner in my book, we call him Big Moses, his nickname. Liquid Love, this guy was... big, general giant, but I liked what I saw. Larry, in just a few moments of time, this loving individual,

confident. I wanted to be. I had some other friends that wrote me and witnessed to me. I remember an old girlfriend from high school wrote me when I was in a juvenile center and she let me know

she was a Christian. And I remember, I only dated for short, but I remember, remember her being a good person person so I remember when I first I started going to church and I was looking for some I'm alcoholic I'm really struggling to stay sober and I go to church and there's these people there that this is why I asked you about it if it felt foreign because with me I hated myself I mean I was the alcoholic I hated myself and I projected that as I

hate people no I didn't actually hate people I hated me And these people who are Christians were also very nice to me. And how I could think of, you know, give me 10 minutes and you'll hate me because I'm a very hateable person. And then after being with the community for a while for about six months, you know, because they were doing the same thing, have you made a commitment? I'm like, shut up. and after a while of being with him, I remember this one guy who I've talked about before, I used to call him the Amazing Mr. Plastic Man,

because I thought he was fake. He was so happy all the time. And I could not get my arms around that. And I heard him speak about loving people and really finding the way to love people, even if you don't know them, even if you don't like them, you still love them. And I mean, everybody in the room was crying and he was crying and I was crying. And I remember thinking, I don't even know what this step really means.

And I don't know if I can do it, but I want to be like that. No amount of talking, no amount of missionary work of, hey, do this. It has to, I think, at least, it comes from. being that example that somebody who's so desperately troubled just says, I want to be happy like you. Yeah. I remember with Warner, he was my next door neighbor. And while I was in there smoking and getting high and all that, he was living next door. And I even in the other cell. Next time. Yeah. And I remember we were in there. We were smoking some hash and there was about four or five of us. And I remember we had the sheet pulled across my bars, you know, and we were in there smoking.

And we get done and put everything away and pulled the sheet across and we step out. And when I stepped out to cell, he was standing there on the other side of the tear looking at me. And it was like my high was gone, powerful. And I was like, I need to be like that. He was looking at you like, what are you doing? Yeah, like, what are you doing, Gene? I knew that was wrong. That's all I can say.

I knew I was wrong. I wasn't living the life I should be living. And I looked at Warner and I said, that guy right there. That's somebody looked. So like you, I saw somebody. He was joyful. He had hard times. He would sing.

He was joyful. He was down to earth. We worked out lift weights, played football together. It's not the people. That's why I called him the Amazing Mr. Plastic Man for a long time because I saw him as a guy who was perfect, trying to be perfect and everything else. But it took time for me to see, no, no, no, he has struggles.

He has pain. He has difficulties in his life. But somehow or another, it doesn't beat him. You know? It doesn't define, yeah. Right. So you make the commitment? Not that night, Sunday morning.

In short, I go back Sunday morning, last service. You feel it coming, though. Oh, yeah. I felt like a rubber band, you know, stretched. And I sat the last pew. The only thing left was the door. I remember, I can leave. The officers will let me go back to the housing unit.

But he's preaching and Jesus died, rose again, the gospel stories. And he's saying, real men make commitments. And I was like, my stomach churning, my hand sweating. There's nothing like that feeling when you know you're being told. to do something and you just know it. You just know it. I knew that I needed to get up.

And so he had the altar call, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I remember I sat there and I wanted to get up. I couldn't move. My body wouldn't move. And then these guys came over to me and they said, hey, you look like you want to accept the Lord.

And I couldn't even open my mouth and say yes or no. I just kind of looking straight ahead. And when I heard him say, you want to accept the Lord or something. my dad. I remember leaning forward and got up and I went up front and these guys followed me and we I just got on my knees and and we prayed Jesus coming in my life set me free forgive me for my sins. I want to live for you. And when I stood up, I literally felt like chains, this weight, this heavy weight came off me. I felt like I can literally live. I can like breathe. I had been into power left

in weights and I knew it was to put hundreds of pounds on my back and squawful. and it takes your breath away until you rack it and you're like, and that's what I felt like it was off. And that's literally I felt this weight come off me. And I didn't know what I was saying, but I kept saying, Hallelujah. I left the chapel and I went back, hallelujah of my friends and started reading a Bible,

immediately started reading the Bible. People who don't, I hate to say it this way because it sounds horrible. But I feel bad for the people who think they don't really need it. You know, I mean, far as, you know, I know people who are Christians, but they've never really had, you know, it's never done the things that, you know, like you have done or many of us have done. And when you get to that place where you are desperate,

you, there is no other way. know I am going to live in a very dark place. If I don't do this, it's darkness or death for the rest of my life. And you need it. And when you have that release, there is no other way to describe it other than miraculous. Because it's your problems are still there. But it's like, I don't know how to describe it. It just, it physically changes you.

I always, now today, I understand it's for me to help describe it as God gives you the power to overcome those things. Walk through them, you know, it's like he gives you grace to walk through him and not around it, but go through it. You got to go right through it. You got to go through it. There's no bridges in the Bible. You're not going to do any of that work for you. Yeah. And so he gives you grace and I realized that I had, he gave me a portion of grace.

What does that mean? He gave me power through the Holy Spirit that now dwelt in me through Christ. When I accepted Christ, I accepted the Godhead. I accepted the Lord God Almighty in my life and he's living in me. And I'm walking and I'm alive. I was dead. My understanding I was dead in sins and trespasses and now I'm made alive in Christ. So I go back and I was reading a Bible.

I'm reading a Bible. I'm looking at my walls. I'm reading the Bible. I'm looking up and and I had pornography on my walls. I had like some pictures centerfolds. I remember getting up, tearing them down, flushing them and reading some more. And then I said, I have another picture. A girl sent me a picture of her and some lingerie.

So I get through my photo album, I get that, I rip it up. And I just had this overwhelming sense that I wanted to be clean. Yeah. Got rid of anything. I had some drugs, got rid of that. It's just, I just, I just, I just, I just, wanted to be clean and and I just felt this peace. And the other thing was that I started apologizing immediately started apologizing the people around the cell block for the next two days.

I would I would pray and say, Lord, I'm sorry for hurting Danny. And he said, yeah, but I'm not Danny. Go talk to Danny. I was like, oh, so I'd get up the cell and, you know, as much as, as as much as I prayed about that individual that I had hurt, cussed out, bullied, whatever was, no matter how much I pray for, God said, go apologize to him. You reconcile back to what we were talking about. Part of that reconciling God teach me, that's what I did with you.

I extended my life towards you, and you responded. They'll respond if you humble yourself. So that was a couple of day process of doing nothing, but going and going to sell to sell. There's nothing better. It was hard? It was very hard.

But there's nothing better. It was very hard because. I remember as a kid, I stayed out one night pretty late, and I got home, and my mother was real mad, and she tried to hit me, smack me around, and I grabbed her arms. I said, I'm too strong, too big. If you had hit me, won't hit me. Well, that ended it. She walked out. next morning I tried to apologize and she yelled at me and so I mean whatever the case was I remember

apologizing I felt bad I felt bad I grabbed my mom's arms and said you're not going to hit me you know no son should do that but I did it and when I apologized she kind of blew up on me yelling and so you were not you were trained apology as maybe yeah I was afraid

to apologize I was like I'm going to get rejected so God showed me and said no you're gonna go apologize all these people. So I remember that being a great, great lesson in my life. Sometimes when you apologize, though, you don't get it. You don't. And it's not about, that's not what the apology is for. Right. And you don't, and you're not entitled. Right. To, to a good response. Right. Which. Your pact is between you and God. Yeah. You have to do your part and what they do. How they respond is, yeah. You're 27? 26. 26 at the time.

Year. 86, December, it was December. Ronald Reagan is still in office. Okay. You went in with Jimmy Carter in office. 77. 77. Yeah. Are you watching television? Are you, I mean, how disconnected from the outside world are you? Just very, I wasn't a news person. I was involved in any news. But I mean, you were watching culturally?

culturally, you get some, you could have a TV, just basic channels. And so you're only three networks at that time. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're not ignorant of what's going on. Yeah. Okay. And you're still hoping that there's going to be some clemency, even though at this point you're not really living it. Yeah, I had to begin at seven years, seven years into my sentence. I started kind of, looking at the process of the commutation. And I knew that they, they, the, the, the, um, specialists that help you, part of the state,

uh, DOC, the Department of Corrections offers you some, uh, help. Um, they want you to do, um, I think they said 10 or 12 years for grieving periods for the victims. Yeah, yeah. Before you start. So I, I was kind of looking into it, looking, gearing up. So, um, Larry Titus, who had to be able to. church right down the street in Camp Hill, Christ Community Church he had. He started coming to

visit me. We connected. I wrote him a letter with the card soon after, and we started visiting every week, and I started disciplining with him. But sitting there, whatever he shared at church on Sunday, I'd say, let me get your notes. Let me get your sermon notes. Tell me what you taught your church, so I can learn it. And then I would teach you to other guys in here. And so when I had 11 years, in the system i filed a commutation with the board of pardons and i was denied um i had no no i didn't i did not have institutional support uh from psychologists from counselors from the warden they had not supported me yet um did you deserve it no did i deserve the the the you know your first seven years you're i messed i and you know and and every lot of stuff i never got caught

So they didn't have records of any of the drugs. They didn't have records of any of my struggles. Yeah, yeah. But no, I didn't deserve it. Never, never did. I filed and I was denied. And I just remember reading his verse in a Bible, it says give thanks in all circumstances

for this is a will of God in Christ concerning you. So I went back and I, God, it hurts, but I'm going to say thank you. And I started. I love those moments. Because when you look back on it, you're like, you know, it actually did work out to be really good. But man, it hurt to say thank you. Yeah, because I, though I knew nobody owed me anything, I still wanted to go home.

I still wanted. So then I waited another year, filed it 12 years, and I got denied again. Gaining some support, I had been in touch with the courts. I had been in touch with the DA who prosecuted a case, James Davis. who wrote a letter on my behalf to the governor saying, Gene should be released. He's accomplished GED. He has a vocation.

He has some skills, da, da, da, da, I'm supportive of his release. So I had that letter, which was humongous. And when I'd go up, they were like, how'd you get a letter like that? I said, I've been in touch. I've been in touch with my course. I've been in touch with my community. And I got denied.

Same process going back and giving thanks and literally worship in the Lord because it was what I did already. I did it Monday through my, I did it. I worshipped every day. That was, I love the Lord and I love worship and Lord and teaching other men to do the same. I waited, again, 17 years along the way.

And along the way, you know, I'm involved in church. I'm involved in LaBuck literacy. I'm involved in programs. I'm involved in raising funds for women's resource centers, become the president of the Lifers Association, chairman. What is the Lifers Association? Well, just because it's a nonprofit organization within each institution, the 26 institutions, everyone has the privilege of becoming active in this nonprofit.

So the inmates at some time in the 70s, early 70s, they formed a nonprofit. And what it does is it returns back to the community. It does fundraising. Inmates are paid anywhere from 10 cents to 42 cents an hour. And so they have some money. And so we could work with outside vendors, like donuts and hoagies, and say, hey, we'll sell your hoagies in here. And then some of the proceeds will raise it up and give it to big brothers, big sisters and organization local. Yeah.

So that's the, it's an organization, self-help, give them back community. You're now 17 years and you've got another 20. You don't know this, but you have another 20 ahead of you. Almost. Yeah, another right? Yeah, 17, 18. At what point do you become a pastor in prison? Not by title, but by heart.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And what does that mean? I've always, ever since I got saved, I think I always had a shepherd's heart. I was always protective of the guys. I was always wanting to see others get saved.

I want to see others learn and how to walk the Christian faith, walk it out and shoe leather, no matter whether you're in prison or not. And so I just had feeding my friends with the Word of God and the love of God. And that was just a daily, that was a daily activity that I did. They, in every prison movie you ever seen, you know, so I was like, I'm innocent or I don't deserve to be here. And the line is always, that's what everybody says. Sure. How many people in the prison system do you think are there wrongly?

Are there? I can never even put a finger on the percentage, but. I can right at top my head, I know three guys that were my friends for a period of time that did not do it and they were exonerated. They were exonerated. They were totally exonerated. They wasn't even, yeah, DNA exonerated them. And one was a lifer after 17 years. And another was both homicides and another was after four or five years.

So you were at least there. Yeah. Okay. Yes. But these guys weren't even there. They weren't even had no knowledge at all. And they were and what kind of hell is that? I remember sitting down on this guy Bill Kelly and he kept saying, I didn't do it, Gene. I did not do it. I didn't know. He had some mental, he had some mental health issues. Very light. I don't know how I explain it. But he was like taking lithium and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Active, smart kid, all that. But he said, I didn't do it. So he actually showed me his transcripts. And I said, let me see you. So he's, and in it, the police with his alibi, he said, called, Sheriff Stone saw I was playing, I was gold bullying with him and his wife that night. Call him, they called and they fake the phone call. In it, they even say it in the transcript, we fake the phone call.

And we didn't call, but we went back, Bill, God don't like liars, you need to tell us the truth. You need to tell us the truth. Did you kill that lady? And after so many hours, he said, I guess, what did he say? He said, I was with him. He said, no, you weren't. So they actually lied. And that came out later.

And so that's what exonerated. Yes. Yeah. And it was just, you know, corrupt police in that sense. But so Bill was released after four years. The other guy with the 17 years for a homicide. How? And then I knew a.

really good friend of mine who's released today. Today? He's out today. He served his time. He served and he served 10 years. He had a 10 to 20 for a drug charge. He was selling drugs in Philadelphia, him and his cousin. And he told his cousin, don't sell today. That's a police officer over in that van. And he said, he said, no, no, well, he was selling. And he, my friend didn't sell. And they grabbed him up And they charged him, not the cousin. Wow. And so your cousin is in jail at this point. He's in prison.

Yes. He serves it. You've done 10 years. You've done double that. The 90s go by. What do you remember about the World Trade Center's coming down? I remember where I was at working. I remember at the desk when the inmates worked in the, I was an ordering clerk for the institution.

I remember the inmates come in. And he said the World Tower has. falling over or something like that. World Trade Center has fallen over. I didn't even know what the World Trade Center was, honestly. I couldn't even, I couldn't even, I couldn't even, I couldn't even, 77 you're in jail. Yeah, they were young, so were you. Yeah, I heard him say a tower in New York City and they said it fell over and we're all like, oh, and then eventually we, we learn as time goes on, we learn what we went on and just glued to the, glued to the TV for days. You are, you went in and This is before the big huge black phone.

You probably don't even remember them. They're big huge block batteries with a phone and a cord with it. Yeah, no. Yeah, you don't remember that. The flip phones, you don't remember those. Afterwards. Technology is growing. Internet starts.

No, yeah. You don't have any. No clue of that. No access to it either in a prison. You're, when you go in, you're two years, I think. after disco and Saturday night fever. Yeah. So when you go in, that's what's in style.

Bell bottoms and yeah. Yeah. Take me to the year now that you are going to get out. Okay. It's 37 years later. 34. 34 years? Nine months, 15 days.

Wow. Yeah. But who's counting? Yeah. Yeah. I was. No, I wasn't. I had no idea.

Yeah. 2012, it was April, April 3rd. And I remember the conversations about cell phones while I was still in men talking about cell phones and doing homework for the kids on the cell phone and Internet. And I was like, what? You know? So having a little taste of that, I get out and I'm released. Tell me about first tell me about how you get released.

What happens? They had vacated through the process a couple months earlier. The DA agreed that I had spent 25 years over any sentence that I should have received. I should have been given a 10-year sentence. Why didn't you? Because the attorney pled me into an illegal plea agreement, which was proven. He pled me in an unconstitutional sentence. And he was doing this.

You were not the only person, right? Yeah. Well, yes. And Sid, too. my other, the stepbrother that was driving. And so they agreed, the DA agreed on all accounts. And then the judge had to agree and the judge agreed. And so I'm in court. I walk into court that day. I'm being resentenced. They said, are you willing to be resentenced? I'm saying, any sentence you want to give me. And it was sort of like the judge, even though the DA said,

you should be immediately released had to be a judge to determine that. The judge could say, and another 10 years. Yeah. Or none. And so they said, I kept my plea guilty and that they would give me a sentence. And so I walk in the courtroom and I have about 40 or 50 friends, high school. People have relationships over the past 25 years, Christians. Your mother?

No, she had passed away five years before that. Were you allowed to go to her funeral? No. No. My sister was there. My nephew, niece, brother-in-law. some cousins. It was quite a big crowd.

And so I go in and remember the judge saying some things, formalities and back and forth. And I said, do you have anything to say? And I stood up and apologized. Thanked everybody for investing in my life, mainly apologizing to the victim, the family, the community. high school. I always thought my sister had to go back to high school for another three years.

Oh, boy. So, you know, so I apologize, sit down, my heart pounding, you know, and I think, take me back to prison. I have an opportunity to publicly apologize, you know. I mean, that was more important. Yeah. I don't care if they give me 40 years. I'm, you know, I'm prepared to go back to the prison. Nothing was promised. Yeah. Nobody told me I was getting out. Yeah. And the judge stand up and said, the defendant, G. McGuire, having served 34 years, nine months, 15 days, has served as maximum sentence and has released affected the state. And the courtroom just exploded with applause and hallelujahs and praise the Lord and clapping. And I remember just crying, like, just head down.

I was chained, you know, shackled and crying. And I look up and thank the judge. And the judge walked off the bench. and the sonographer, she's walking away. And I'm just saying, thank you, thank you. And so he never closed a court. So meanwhile, someone yells, unshackle him, releases from his chains, he's a free man,

yells across the courtroom, bellowing voice. And they come over and they're unshackle me, and they're my sister, I hear the sheriff saying, and my sister, hold on, Mary, hold on, and she goes, no, I waited 35 years from my brother, I'm not waiting no more. So she's hugging me, and they take chance, We're just celebrating. I mean, oh my goodness, it's unbelievable.

Staying there and someone comes up and hands me some clothes and says, Mary, take your brother home. So I go back and change. And I reach in his bag and there's some jeans and there's a shirt and some socks and shoes. And the whole time, I'm like, I'm like, tripping. I'm like, it's surreal, you know. Is this really happen? Is someone going to you know, stop. And so, um, we, uh, I change and I reach in. There's a bottle of, uh, Cologne, Dose and Cabano, light blue, men's clone. And I spray it. I'm like, oh, I'm spraying myself. And the sheriff said, jean, stop. So I'm standing like the intake, outtake. And finally he said, get your stuff. Your family's waiting for you. So walk out. Families waiting. Friends.

we're celebrating, we're laughing, circled up prayer with the attorney, with the sheriffs, all there. People are videotaping things. Someone hands me a cell phone and says, the Papsons want to talk to you. So I grabbed the cell phone, and I remember looking at it,

and I put it to my ear, this black box. And I said, I can't hear anything. And I'm surrounded by people. They're videotaped me. And the one someone had to, now I know it was an iPad. But I thought it was like an etcher sketch thing, you know.

It was like, just, I was like, what are he doing? You know? So I put the phone in my ear and I can't hear anything. And I'm like, they turned it. They came up. It was upside down. It was like, so that was the beginning of technology. We left there, went to a restaurant.

We ate. I remember getting in my brother's truck. And I thought, this is plush. It was like, I've never sat in anything so comfortable in all my life. The last time you were in a car. Yeah, 77. Well, I went to a couple doctor trips. Yeah.

But basically it was sheriff's car. Yeah. So I was, so we, we go eat and we're sitting there. We're eating and it was about 20 of us at the restaurant. And I'm eating and I'm like, man, this fork is so heavy. I mean, it's really, I'm looking at it. It's heavy. And I'm like, man, and I look down.

I just realized I've been eating with plastic wear all these years. Oh, my gosh. Not metal. Silverware. and I look down, there's a steak knife. I'm like, seriously, I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't know if that should be sitting there as a weapon. But they're the things that, you know, I'm not familiar with, you know. But there was a lot of that, my first few years of getting adjusted and getting used to freedom, getting used to choices.

my choice for food was always made for me. I went shopping one morning. I got an apartment, and I had to go get some food. And I remember standing in the aisle, and I'm looking down this aisle of cereal. Kroger's, I mean, it was, I was like, so I texted a friend of mine in Pennsylvania, I said, took a picture with my little flip phone.

They gave me, someone gave, some of my nephew, provided it for me for a little bit. And I said, so many choices, you know, And it said, welcome to freedom. Wow. So it was, there was a lot of that, you know. Some funny stuff, something embarrassing. But most of it was all good.

Transition. What did you see in the difference of people? Had culture. Was that a culture shock? You know, I left Pennsylvania three weeks later. I spent three weeks with my sister and some friends. It took me shopping. in and I knew I was coming to Dallas because Larry Titus had relocated ministry to Dallas.

And he's the guy who gave you the car. And he spent 25 years visiting me. Never missed a birthday. Never missed Christmas. Always in a prison visiting him and his family. And so I come down here. You know, most, most my, my memory is guys that get out, they go to halfway houses in the inner city. And then they come back, oh, they didn't give me. me a chance. Oh, there's drugs everywhere. Oh, it's a mess. I don't know. I get out. I come to Collieville, Texas. Not really a halfway house kind of place. You know, and the enormous amount of wealth in Dallas, Fort Worth, opportunity, not just wealth, but opportunity. The most church dairy in the world, I think, probably. Loving, accepting people. I had no problem. No problem.

It's not a Jean Valjean yellow ticket of leave. Did you have any of the pushback that I just spent 35 years in prison for murder? No, nothing. I mean, people were very open, open, armed, open handed. When you tell people that who don't necessarily know you or don't, you know, you're just meeting out of the street and that comes up. Does it come up and how do people react? about the being in prison I think it's ruined

some possible relationships How long were you in prison? No, it's a good icebreak right now. So dating. Yeah, my first one, it was like that. I was out about a month and a half and I met a flight attendant. And we were at a place.

It's called Bonefish, I think, up in Pennsylvania. And I was with a friend of mine and kind of a blind date. And she came and I came. And she said, so what do you do? I said, well, I live in Texas and I do roofing. I started a roofing job. And she goes, oh, she goes, what did you do before? I said, oh, I was away.

So, China, I was going to, you know, and she said, we're like, you know, like an island. Yeah, kind of. I said, no prison. And she goes, oh, for what? And I said, homicide. Oh, like this, like this. She had a glass of wine every time. She took a sip of wine, you know, set it down.

And then I said, and she goes, I suppose you can tell me you didn't do it. I said, I didn't. She goes, I think I need to get outside, get some air. So I went out, I said, can I join you? She goes, yes. I go out and I tell her the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said, you know, I don't have no baggage. I said, I don't have no history, but I have no baggage.

I have no kids. I, you know, I'm not divorced. I don't know kids. I said, can I see you again? Well, you do have a little bit of baggage. I mean, just a little. So she goes, yeah, I like you. So she invited me over and she cooked dinner for me.

So that was kind of. But I, no, I think, I think, even with the homicide painful, but the redemption, the forgiveness factor in there. And people, what I did notice when I came to Dallas in Dallas text, when I got out, period, but I'm here. There's a lot of people who have never been in prison, never been addicted, but yet they're in prison to anger.

And I noticed, I noticed like businessmen, they carry a some they carry like an anger for bad decisions or they got bumped out or someone did something wrong to them women are hurt by husbands who divorced them I sense that and you feel that and I think when I started sharing my story and I tell them that I was able to forgive and I was able to be forgiven they they respond to that. And they said, well, if you can do 35 years in prison and not come out angry, why can't I forgive my husband, my wife, my business partner?

Why can't I forgive whoever? And I noticed that a lot. And that was kind of surprising because in the prison, I lived a Christian life. There was a lot of guys that do live the life. They're genuine, they're authentic. And I just thought that's typical of everybody, but it may not be. Yeah, yeah. I personally think hell is not being able to accept the forgiveness for yourself.

You know, you can, you're standing there and, you know, if you've tried and you've, you know, ask for forgiveness for all the things that you have done, that stuff's going to come relatively easy if you're sincere. It's so hard to forgive yourself. You know, when you said businessman, you know, they've been, I think there's people who have made mistakes in their own life. That's why I was an alcoholic. You make mistakes in your life and then they just start compounding on each other and you just feel like you can't get out. And so many people are walking around and they can forgive others, but they can't forgive themselves. Do you agree with that? No, I do.

Yeah. I think it's because they don't know the forgiveness of the Lord. And that's the only thing I can relate it to. If you knew that God forgave you, then to not forgive yourself is a pride issue. Yeah, it's like, who are you? Yeah. Yeah. And he can do it.

Yeah. And I remember that was for me, you know, on the cell floor asking Ms. Nagy to forgive me, whether she could have understood that or heard it, but I did, you know, and I knew I had to do that. And then forget up and forgive myself and not live in this guilt-ridden, you know, never forget it, never let it go for a moment, but the guilt and the shame,

I can tell the story, I can share that, even though it's painful. You now are a pastor at a big restaurant chain here in Dallas, and I love the people that you work for. The vineyards are just remarkable people. And I'll never forget when he first said to me, Paul said, oh, you got to meet our pastor. He was in prison for life for murder. And I was like, oh, okay, sure. But you are one of the happiest guys I have come across.

I mean, you are just a happy, happy guy. Who would you be without that night in the bar? If you would have listened to your mother, who do you think you would have been? Would you be the same man you are today? absolutely not you know and it's obviously you can't change the past but I mean I've thought about it and I know that I've probably been dead or I would have been alcoholic yeah and committed suicide a brother committed suicide a nephew committed alcohol from alcohol my father died at 20 when I was 20 he was 51 alcohol, sorosal liver.

And it was steeped in my mother, too, until she became a Christian and stopped. And so she lived to be 77. So I think by seeing it, I would have entered into, that's my thinking. It's for me. Very possible. Suicides, my mother committed suicide,

my brother committed suicide. Alcoholism is like a pack of wild elephants. And you can get to the point where you feel like, that's who I'm supposed to be. I come from that and that's what's going to happen to me and that's a big lie. Last thought or question. And this is really hard to ask

because it sounds weird, but maybe only an alcoholic and somebody like you can understand. Do you thank the Lord in any way for not what happened that night, but for that night? Can you get to a place to where you're, thankful that you went through all of that? Yes, I had to.

Yeah. Yeah. Because it, and I'm not one that will say that God ordains evil because he doesn't, but he's sovereign enough to use it. And it's choices I made, my cousin made. He worked and there's good, maybe I have to wait to eternity to find. out what God has to say about Isabel Nagy's suffering in that murder and the pain, but God's using that. Yeah, he doesn't cause it. He doesn't punish us like that. He just, that's not him.

But he is the best at making lemonade out of the strongest living. I like to say God doesn't waste the moment. He doesn't. And I really believe he doesn't waste the failure. No. We, we have to deal with, but God's like, okay, you blew it, okay. I'm not changing my plan for you. You know, I'm not, I'm not, I don't have to rewrite the script because Gene, you decided to disobey your mother and you decided to join him with a cousin and you decided to follow a bad character. And, you know, you made decisions and choices at night that he doesn't, he's not rewriting it. He's able to use it all. What's next in the next half of your life?

A second book. I'd love to get busy on that because the people who've read the first book, they're always asking about the second because the first book ends the day I got out. I bought a house, townhouse out in Fort Worth. Why is that so much emotion behind that? Oh, because it's answer to prayer.

It was in prison. I remember praying for a car a wife and a house and was able to buy a car um is able to buy a house and still waiting on a wife you can buy a wife it's not something you probably

would want to do but I don't think I don't have money for the quality you get the big Russian come over I don't have that type of money for the quality and the talent in the intelligence that I'm looking for but are you in a relationship are you no no no

No. How can people get a hold of you if they're like... 817. G.Maguire.org. Okay. Is my website. Gemagir.org. It's a pleasure to know you and thank you for reminding me. Yeah.

That everything is good. Yeah. Everything is good. The Lord is good.