The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 53 | The Truth About Jihad – From A Woman Who Escaped It | Tania Joya | The Glenn Beck Podcast

Episode Date: October 5, 2019

Tania Joya grew up in a British Muslim community believing that she was only half as valuable as a man. She was radicalized by a college friend who told her America “deserved” 9/11 and soon after became a mail-order bride to an American who would rise in the ranks of ISIS. But through it all, she sensed something truly evil about the oppressive, hate-filled culture of Islamism that told her she had no rights. She now proudly says that the FBI and America saved her life – and gave her the freedom to tell quite a story. Tania doesn’t hold back as she lays out exactly what jihadism is and what she’s doing now to deradicalize the individuals it has enslaved. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today's guest promises to be one of the most riveting guests we have had. It was six years ago, the woman you're about to hear from, dodged machine gunfire as she carried her three children while pregnant with a fourth across the Syrian border into Turkey. Her husband, now the top-ranking American commander in ISIS, paid a human trafficker to take his family to a bus stop. From there, they were on their own. This story is very complicated. This mother of four small children was radicalized at a very young age. She believed in jihad in the name of Allah, and it was her mission. Her husband was an American from Texas.

He was her partner in terror, and they traveled the world hoping to recruit radicals while they raised their sons, same time to be holy warriors. But something changed because while living here in America, he went to prison. and a window opened. Today's podcast asks several questions and attempts to have them answered. What drives a young, intelligent, beautiful person to become radicalized?

And if it does happen, is it possible for that person to de-radicalize themselves and seek redemption? This story is going to attempt to answer these questions. It's not only a literal journey spanning multiple countries, multiple war zones, time zones,

but it is also an internal journey of the mind and the heart as she grapples with breaking free of her radical ideology and extremist husband. Today, she works with organizations to help counter violent extremists. She uses her past experience to try to de-radicalize those that have become radicals. She works in prisons. She works with U.S. law enforcement. Today's episode, The Islamic Terrorist's Wife. So I want to get into your story from really the beginning, but I have to address the elephant in the room first. There are these ISIS wives, if you will,

that we have seen that are trying to get back into their own country and be normalized. And I haven't believed any of them. I believe you, but I haven't believed any of them. Why should anyone believe you? I mean, that's your journey is night and day. Why should they believe me? I think, I mean, I think I'm an open book.

I definitely am. And the fact that I do criticize, now, see, it's a long story, but originally, like, I started off being a teenager at 16 who is very who is bullied at high school and I went through a mental breakdown with no therapy or counseling available to me and then I turn to religion so so let's so then so because if I want to go through your story and maybe the way to believe you is just hear your whole story so so let's let's instead of giving a real quick weekend cap. Let's start at the beginning. Tanya, you were born in Great Britain.

You were born and lived in a family. Tell me about your family. Mom and dad. Yeah, so I come from a Bangladeshi, British family. My grandfather moved to the UK in 1945. Then he bought my mother over 10 years later. they weren't my parents and my dad came in the 70s married my mom for a passport that's this pretty normal it's pretty acceptable in a Muslim culture and and they weren't religious but what happened to me as a teenager was I had from the results of being bullied at high school I ended up turning to religion to cope and

And the only religion accessible to me at the time was Islam. Okay, so wait. Mom and dad, not religion. Rinda religious. Kind of culturally religious. What does that mean culturally? Like, they would force us to read the Quran two hours every day in a language we don't understand. It's like Catholics reading Latin and not knowing a word that they're saying.

Okay. And the way they could control us was teaching us. They didn't want us to be too westernized. because that was forbidden in Islam. It would insult their culture. It would be like things like wearing makeup, wearing heels, wearing jeans, we would be slut shamed.

But naturally, we wanted to be integrated, but our parents were the obstacle. Was your mom, was your mom, did she buy into that? Was she more of a mom or a wife? of somebody that was kind of keeping her under the thumb? No. What was...

The problem was, I think, I'm going to be really candid here, but my mom always wanted a husband who would be a patriarch and a provider, the breadwinner. But she had to take on that role. Because my dad was a bit of a troublemaker and got himself. in a lot of trouble. I didn't grow up having a lot of respect for him, and I always heard my mom complaining that he's not a good father. He's not a good provider.

And so I longed for patriarchy. I longed to have that male role model who would protect the family, take care of the family. And I didn't have that, and I was missing in my life. I also had a lot of issues with my dad because he wasn't the most law-abiding human being and got himself into trouble my mom. So there was a lot of problems at home

and it always stems from the home at the beginning, especially with values. I wasn't taught values like human rights, the law of the land, respect the law of the land. It was like, Haram Halal. You are controlled, you can't integrate, you can't be Western, that's satanic. you've got to be, you know, you've got to worry about shame.

You can't date boys. You can't be like a normal Western girl growing up and learn how to have healthy relationships. You've got to have arranged marriages and things like that. So, you know, I had this conflict. And then after having a, and it's really embarrassing for me to say, but I was practically schizophrenic at the age of 16 because I was so lonely. and I'd been chased out one town, Harrow, which is northwest of London. And then I had, I moved to East London.

What do you mean you were chased out of it? Well, they were, like, attacking me if I came outside my house. And when I had a job, I was working on a closed door, and they would come harass me. It was girls from my high school. And it became too much that I was unsafe. Wait, was it a, was it a color thing, a religion? thing? It was just they just didn't like you, bullies. What? Yeah, they were the cool girls that I felt, the cool girls at school who were popular and I fell out with them because, and it was over silly things.

I was dating a boy that they didn't like me dating. And it just so happened that the boy who was dating, he was a Sikh nationalist. And I know that's not too commonly known in America, but they hate Muslims. And they say that they, they, they, they, they, they. grow their hair and they grow turbans and they say they're only going to cut the hair once they've killed off every Muslim, which is impossible. So what happens is that these Sikh boys will intentionally date Muslim girls to abuse them. And so I was in an abusive relationship from a very young age from 15 to 18. And my dad wasn't present because my dad was actually running away from the law because he had been molesting a 12 year old. It's so bad. It's so bad.

It's really hard, I think, for any girl to grow up, we long to have a close relationship with our father. There was nothing I could respect about him. And so also, to move on further, I wasn't allowed to leave home unless I was married. So it wasn't like go to college, do well, and then you can get married and live freely. It was like, well, once you get married to a guy,

you're not our problem. anymore. So I understood that was the dynamics and I really needed to leave that toxic environment of my family. I was also, so once I left Harrow, which is north-west of London, I moved to Essex, East London, Barking. And Barking was a breeding ground for terrorism. If, like, a lot of the terrorists who went driving their vans into people on the London Bridge and stabbing, they came from barking. So once I was embarking, you know, I was searching for an identity and I didn't know what to do. And these conservative Muslim girls that I was around now in this working class area, so there were two groups.

There were the Muslims who were very conservative Muslims, traditionalists, and then the English people were more on the B&P side. It's B&P? The British National Party. And then they evolved into the EDL. which is something English Defence League so they were white nationalists and it's a working class neighborhood so everybody was like moving away from the center

and becoming very tribal and so I had you know I wasn't the brightest girl I was a bit of a follower I wanted a follow I wanted religion I wanted God to love me so you know there was no movement where nuns were revolting

and like bombing post boxes and things like that. I would have loved to have joined that, but instead it was Muslim. There was the Muslims were like aggravated. They had all these grievances and my cousin Nabila Chaudhry, I idolized her and she was the first person in my family to go to Oxford University. She was a normal, beautiful girl. I just adored her. She went to Oxford and she became radicalized and she came out even worse. It's unbelievable. Just like how the universities in England were infiltrated by Islamic movements, the political Islam. And I was a few years younger than her and I was like, I knew my family adored her and I wanted to be like her. So she, at the age of 17, she taught me

about the caliphate. So this is the first time I heard about a caliphate. You never even knew about political Islam. September 11th happened. And that was a huge turning point in my life. I was just sure. I didn't want to believe that Muslims did it. I also didn't believe Muslims were intelligent enough to do something like that. You know, because you just think of Muslims.

There's like light years behind judo-Christian communities. They really are. You know, like we can go into that further about how they kill a apostates and things. Like those were rulings that were outdated 2000 years ago by Judaism and still go continue today. Right.

But I didn't know any better. And I really was desperate to feel a belonging because I felt rejected by my family. I felt rejected by society. And I was a pretty girl, but I didn't know how to handle the catcalling that it got. when I was a teenager.

And most of the time, I was blamed for it. I was blamed for the way I look. Right. And you're, so you're, and you're living in a society that slut shames. Exactly. So the solution was,

you cover up because it's your fault. You shouldn't be tempting men. Oh, my God. It wasn't men should just control themselves. Right. And so I, and I felt like God didn't like me. childish and I was like

and I was desperate for God to be protected by God. Because you had no one else in your life. No one else, no father figure to protect me, had an abusive boyfriend and only Islam actually made me separate from him. And... Because of the abuse or because he was a Sikh?

Both. And he wasn't healthy. He abused me only because I was a Muslim. So there's all this like within the Indian subcontinent communities, Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Muslims, none of them get along. There's no like shared values. And plus they're so traumatized from the separation of India and Pakistan during, you know, after the British left and there was a lot of trauma. And our parents, you know, they didn't get therapy and they weren't

pacifist. They didn't understand children have human rights. They were abusive. There were all these problems. Plus they got a lot of their, like, rulings from Islam, which says things like, if your child doesn't pray at 7, beat them. And it was very draconian, like, very violent. So, you know, this was the environment that I grew up in, and it wasn't until later that I realized that if you keep this cycle of violence and hate, it's a continue.

I didn't want to do it. Yeah. So you're in, your, your cousin is in Oxford. She's been radicalized. And September 11th happens. Yes. And you see Osama bin Laden? Well, I was, I came home from school.

I was studying politics, government and politics, law, sociology, psychology, at my A-levels. And so I was already very politically driven. and I came home, switched on from school, and I switched on the news, and I saw what happened. And I was like, I was devastated. I was like, this is horrible. This is inhumane. I went to school the next day, and I was in my government and politics class, and I sat next next to my best friend, who was a Pakistani girl.

And I said, wasn't it terrible what happened? And they're saying Muslims, why do they always blame the Muslims? And she said to me, well, was it so terrible? Was it so bad? And I was like, oh, maybe she didn't understand what I just said. I was in shock by her response. So I tried to reword it. And she said, okay, come home after school,

and my parents will tell you all about it. So that's how it began to radicalization, not only from my cousin, but from my school friends. And it's a new area. And barking, Essex, where I come from, is renowned for breeding terrorists. What did the parents say to you? My parents didn't know.

No, no, no. Her parents. Oh, her parents told me it's an eye for an eye, life for a life. America has been intervening in Muslim countries for far too long. They attacked, they used propaganda from Osama bin Laden that I wasn't familiar with, but they said something like America intervened with the war in Lebanon, and they killed thousands of people. also, you know, a life for a life. We, they kill us, we kill them.

And I can't say that I was, I wasn't a healthy-minded person. I was a follower. I was, I was looking for leadership. And so I was like, oh, I get that. Yeah, I understand because my ex-boyfriend used to beat me up for being a Muslim. And even though I told him, I'm not really a Muslim. I don't care about the religion. but it's like it ended up where I just ended when people are like confronted about their identity

and they don't know what their entity is they end up just like going backwards and so I was I was like okay no one accepts me as an I'm not English I'm British but I'm not English so and my roots are not deep enough what does that mean in America you're an American yes especially you're born here. But even if you come here and you take the citizenship, test you're an American. Not in England. And in America, everybody has ancestors that were immigrants. Even the natives were immigrants. They came from Asia. But it's not quite like that in England. There's a lot of xenophobia. And the Muslim community wasn't helping because they weren't integrating. So I see from

both perspectives. Right, right. So I ended up just like, I really just, like, I had this reputation where I had a boyfriend and my family were not happy with it. And I was like, okay, I've got to turn my life around. I've got to be a good person. Like, I have to be the equivalent of a nun, but the Muslim version. So I was like, I'm going to be a good Muslim girl. I'm going to be a, I'm going to hear and obey. I'm going to find a Muslim husband and get away from this country that doesn't accept me. Okay. So it's not at this point that you are this is a big turning point in your life, right? This is the first real turning point to where you're seeing,

okay, I can build a better life. And it's not about killing people or anything else. It's just about listening and obeying and putting these principles into play in your life for a better life. Yeah, because I thought God would protect me from being unlucky. I learned that I define my future. I determine my fate, not God. But I didn't know that at the time. So my friends were getting married very young,

and I was kind of just following their footsteps. So going back to my high school, I came from West London, and I moved to East London, and it was a big culture. shock. I spoke differently. I walked differently. I talked differently from them. They had a very strong Essex accent. I had a northern accent. I had boyfriends. I was like for, and then I, I had peer pressure. Like, you can't be this. It's not Islamic. Are you ashamed of your roots? So I felt the pressure. And being the weak-minded ahead that I was, and I'm very ashamed, I really was. I was.

We all made mistakes and we were all stupid when we were young. Also, I was the fourth daughter, so I had three older sisters, and I was used to just following their following, being a follower. My parents weren't, they were busy working. My sisters practically look after me. And as girls, we weren't wanted. So as the fourth unwanted daughter. And my parents made it very clear to me that they didn't want me.

So my education was not a priority. I didn't care if I went to school as long as the house was clean. So I became the cleaner and the servant. We had to clip my dad's toenails, take his socks off after work. I can't even believe that I had to do that back then. And then also knowing things like a girl is worth half of a boy. When we're born, we have this sacrificial ceremony where we kill goats. It's so sad.

But goats are lambs or whatever. And a girl gets one animal, one animal sacrificed, but a boy gets two. So a girl's worth half of a boy. And our testimony is worth half of a man. So if we're in court, you need two women witnesses as equivalent to one man. because our deficiency in our mind. How did you not, how did you, how are you raised in England, which doesn't have that system and not understand, not see the two and go,

this one's better than that one. How did you not see that? See, at the time, I, because of my Muslim upraising, I wasn't allowed to drink. I wasn't allowed to party. I wasn't allowed to have relationships with boys. And we were just isolated. Yeah, isolated and told that that's all evil and you're evil if you do it.

And this suspicion that Satan is around completely possessing us. Also, after the bullying, I turned to my religion because I felt so unsafe that I felt like only God can protect me. So I went into, I delved into Islamic research, not with a health. mind, feeling like I brought it on myself because I hadn't been a good Muslim. Before the bullying, I couldn't care less about my religion. I didn't even want to be a Muslim. I was so embarrassed of being a Muslim, I wouldn't even tell people. But like the backlash between like the B&P and the EDL and against the Muslim community, I saw this with my family even. They became more and more religious after September 11th. That's when I,

it's like everyone became very tribal. And so that's where it stemmed. And I wasn't allowed to leave home. My family dynamics were toxic. Like I said, my dad was a huge problem. And my mom was a problem. She was very abusive. I need to get away from her because she was a bully.

And so I knew the only way I could get out was to get married. So while I was at a march for Stop the War in Iraq March in London, it was like a million man march. It was very historical. Some Muslim guys came up to me with a piece of paper saying www.w.mashimony.com. And I just looked at it and I was like, they saw me with a hijab. And they was like, okay, fine.

I realized that the only way I can get away from my family is if I get married. kind of like a male order bride. I'm not proud of, but that pretty much was how I became. I met John Georgeles online. And John, an American who came from a military family, his dad was a general in the Air Force, a doctor. So he lived the life that I wish I had been born into. You know, who doesn't want to be a white American

upper middle class family with a great legacy. But I met him and we had a lot in common that we had problems in our homes, with our fathers and felt rejected by society, but we were most welcomed by the Muslim community. Because the Muslim community will embrace everyone, anyone. You can be the most retarded, anyone like psychopath, murderous person. You're welcome as long as you come in and join the group because they need everybody. And so it's almost like a gang culture. But it gave me some belonging, which I didn't have anywhere else.

And so that was my initial stage in England. Yeah. And so when you met him online, how did that transpire? What attracted you to him? What did he promise? Very superficial. And again, in Islam, you can marry people for four reasons. You can marry a man for his wealth, for his status, for his piety, or his looks.

I went for status. And I went because his parents came from a good family. and I, like I said, I wished I had come from that kind of background. Like, when I was a child, I used to wish. I wish I could be adopted by a white family in middle class. I get away from my parents. But it's sad to think like that, you know, because I felt so rejected from the age of five. I was running away from home.

And John, I don't know exactly why. John's dad was absent in his life. His dad worked really hard. as a doctor and in a military, so he didn't spend much time with his son. But when John's dad did spend time with John, my ex-husband, there wasn't a good relationship. John didn't meet up to Tim's expectations. Tim is tall, he was athletic, he played football at West Point.

He had achieved so much, but John, on the other hand, had a drug addiction at the age of 11. Oh, my. Yeah. And it never really got dealt with. He didn't go to therapy. He didn't get counseling. He should have probably gone to a military camp or some boot camp or something.

But none of that happened. And his rebellion against his parents just, it got out of hand. And so with John, I'm going off a bit. No, no, no, that's fine. So, like, after September 11th, you know, so I'll go back to my story and then I'll explain what happened to John. After September 11th, I went to school. I was in my politics class and I said to my friend, who was a Pakistani girl, she's

now graduated from Queen Mary's University and as a lawyer, but I spoke to her and I said, wasn't it terrible what happened? And I think they think it's Muslims. And she was like, well, was it so bad? You don't think they deserved it? And I was like, and I was like, hang on, let me ask you that again, because I didn't think she understood what I was. She said, come home after school and talk to my parents.

And they'll explain to you the history of the Soviet Union and how these Majahedin, these glorious Majahedin, had defeated communism and they are heroes. The problem is those so-called warrior heroes sought asylum in England, and they got asylum, and they influenced us, and they influenced like a lot of groups, the Hizbat Tahirir, which is a band group in England. They were calling for a caliphate,

which my cousin had learned from in Oxford, and she taught me about. And then there was another group called Alma Harjurun by Omar Bakrari, their band now, and they wanted to make England a Islamic State, which was a complete joke. So I wasn't really with any of them, but I had lots of friends, and they were all from different groups.

who all supported jihad in different ways. Hsbathahari H.T., they said they were nonviolent, but only up until a certain time. They're like, we don't do jihad now, we do it later. And it's the same with the Sufis. They're like, now is not the time to fight. We'll fight at the end of days when Christ returns to Damascus and we'll kill off all the Jews.

And I was like, whoa, okay. And I had never met a Jewish person. I was like, okay, the only references I have to Jewish people are from the Quran. And as far as I know, God curses them. God hates them. All this stuff. It's the most anti-Semitic book. I mean, if there's any book full of hate speech, it's the Quran, and that's where I learned it from.

I didn't have to learn it from any group. You just have to read any translation, and it's there. The misogyny. the barbarity, the war booty, all this stuff. And I was like, okay, these are my values. Because I was like, I was so willing to be led. And how did John get there? John got there.

So he was first, I would describe a Christian fundamentalist. He was part of the Orthodox Greek church, who he had been raised to actually hate me. Muslims because of the Ottoman Empire and what they had done. They had enslaved the Greeks and they didn't do much good anyway. They were really into pedophilia and all those things and making it legal. So I could understand why Greeks don't like the Turks, but then they generalize and make all Muslims as if they're all Turks.

And that's how he was raised. But then something about his, him feeling rejected by his father made him more inclined to research this monotheist religion. He also had trouble understanding the Trinity. Because he was like, it's not monotheist, it's illogical, it doesn't make sense that, you know, the God impregnated Mary and was born by it, born. And then when he's dying, he's praying to a God saying, God, why have you, like, forsaken me and you know it didn't and then when he went to his priest because he was a devout

Christian he wanted to be a priest his parents weren't happy about that they wanted him to be a lawyer or something but and so when he spoke to his priests about it they were like oh no one really believes in the Trinity we just go along with it when it doesn't make sense you don't have to have to have it doesn't make rational sense you just have to have that leap of faith that wasn't good enough for John. He was also experimenting with terrible amounts, high amounts of LSD. And I don't, I've never taken it, but he was like, he said that he would see things like light spirits in the case. He was in Colorado Springs and he was with his friends and they could all see these spirits, these beings of light. And then later on he thought, oh, they must have

been Jinns after reading of the Quran. It was just a chemical reaction in his brain, but he didn't know because he was a young boy. So he becomes Muslim. You go online. You start talking about... Hidro and jihad. Two concepts that I want to eradicate in Islam.

What are the? The first one is... Jihad is... Jihad. Yeah. And there's different levels. there's jihad of yourself where you just like deprive of yourself

from being a human being and having human desires and then the jihad like defensive or offensive it's the physical jihad and these are things that we couldn't deny because they were actions of the prophet Muhammad and in the Quran we're told imitate him we have to imitate Muhammad

because he's perfect and we're told we're not allowed to question because only we're told you, there's a verse in the Quran. I haven't read the Quran since 2009, so it's too traumatic for me. But it was like, you do not question God, God questions you. And then other things like imitate Muhammad and imitate Abraham. Well, these two guys, okay, Muhammad was a pedophile. Muhammad was, you know, like, from my understanding of my readings,

after I read Hugh Kennedy's book called The Caliphate, and I could clearly see Muhammad had an inferiority complex to Jews and Christians because they had moved on from polytheism to monotheism. They were moving ahead. And so he wanted to catch on. I guess he felt some sort of shame about the polytheist ways of Arabia. So, you know, these connections, didn't come until later.

I'm jumping from... It's all right. But John never saw it. And then... But like imitating Abraham. In Islam, the scriptures are... They've been changed from the Old Testament. And things like, you know,

you've got to imitate Abraham. He's the father. Abraham wanted a sacrifice his son. And he was winning to do it until God stopped him. That meant we, Muslims will take that as meaning as we have to sacrifice our children for God to prove ourselves. But then there's like no human rights.

And children don't have human rights. But they don't believe in human rights because it's not from God. So you guys hit it off? We hit it off at the beginning. I didn't really like him. I think he was a little bit autistic. I didn't realize that I married him. It was a stranger.

I married him three days off. after meeting him. And it sounds crazy. We wrote to each other, we emailed each other for two months. We were only 19 when we got married. And I understood that I never felt at home in England, not the way I do in America.

And I never picked up on English values probably because it's too tolerant to bad ideas and cultural abuse. But also just feeling like, I'm not allowed because it's against my race. religion and I'll go to hell if I'm like like them. And so I met John and we've gone on gray and we're like, oh, we're dreaming about a caliphate, we're dreaming about jihad.

You know, this is all in our imagination. And then I had children. It was slightly different. And then it wasn't until I had my second child that I, so John went to prison for three years. He had been, he had, um, was charged for hacking into Apex website because he worked for a company called RAC space, which web hosts, uh, a lot of pornography and AAC, their website. So it made him all really angry because Islam is a, makes you angry about everything, right?

And, you know what I mean. And then, um, so he was, he was actually talking to an under, cover CIA agent from Canada and he didn't realize it. His friends warned him. It's a trap, but he didn't listen to me. He didn't listen to his friends. So he ended up selling for this website he had unspun. He started doing IT work programming for them and selling Osama bin Laden propaganda, which was the stupidest thing. I didn't really know about it. And another thing in Islam is that there's two times you can lie. You can lie. You can, there's, there's, there's, was Takia, I think it's called,

when you lie, when you don't want to say you're a Muslim to save your life, and you can lie to your wife. So my husband took advantage at that, and he lied to me a lot because he didn't want me nagging him. And so he didn't tell me everything, but he went to prison for almost three years at Seagoville, in Texas. It was a detention center, it was low security. During that time, I was able to breathe a little bit.

I was allowed. First time alone. First time alone. So he wasn't in charge. I didn't have a family or brothers or mom or dad. Me and my child, my first son, and I started unveiling slowly. Like I would wear the headscarf, but I put on a colorful one. I took off my veil because he made me hated wearing the veil.

You cannot breathe under the veil. like wearing a sack over your head. And I tell every man who says that it's righteous and everything, I'm like, put a bag over your head, you know, and you'll know what it feels like. But then they say, oh, our mothers don't say it feels like that. Their mothers are lying. Because it does feel like, especially when you're pregnant and it's hard to breathe.

And they're always making us pregnant. And they treat us like baby-making machines just so that they can subdue us. because I had this problem that I always wanted to accept my independence and say like I want a job and I don't want to just be at home and you know I want to do what other 20 year olds do because I was in my 20s of the time

but he thought that was too feminist and too American so while he was in prison I got to have some freedom and he came back and the night is crazy because I always say I was married to John for 10 years.

The best time, the best years of my marriage was while he was in prison and while he was on probation for three years. Because I had a foot over him on his neck for the first time. It was before it was the other way around. And so if he stepped out online, he knew I would report him to his probation officer, who I got along with really well. It really helped having a relationship with the FBI. for that duration because they could also see the control John had over me and they could see me trying to fight it. So like they were concerned.

They understood there was some manipulation. There's manipulation going involved and, you know, they were caring. I don't care what anyone says about the FBI, but they saved my life. This government saved my life. And I owe them my loyalty and my love. and my life and so do my children and I remind them of that every day because we would be in those camps in Syria right now or we would be dead if it wasn't for the US having a heart you know like

having sympathy on us and you know of course the FBI agents saw it and they were concerned for me but there was only so much they could do um and so what year was this um so it started so they arrested him in 2006 and then he was off probation 2011 and the plan was so in 2011 October 2011 he said we have to leave we're going we're leaving we plan to go to Libya first because I actually liked Gaddafi he was good for his people even though as a socialist but you know like he was better than all the other dictators of the region there's a difference Americans have a hard time hearing things like that, but we don't live in the Middle East.

And the Middle East is a warrior kind of area. They need the, they look for the strong men. They need autocracy because I don't think like a four year, like in America they look every four years in their terms. It's very hard to look in the future, far ahead. like let's say China, where they look, you know, like how is everything going to still function in 40 years? And that's how the dictators in the Middle East think very much so. So, yeah, they're not used to democracy and they're not ready for democracy.

And they are like, I lived in Egypt when I moved to Egypt in 2011. John wanted us to move there. I didn't want to move. He said in 2008 there was a recession. He scared the living lives out of me. He said, the country is going to have a civil war. We're going to be attacked. We're going to be the scapegoats because we're the Muslims.

And being a stay-at-home mom, I wasn't allowed to leave the house without his permission. I didn't want to leave the house even because I hated wearing the hijab. It's hot. It's Texas for crying out loud. Who wants to wear? And also, I knew that no one was going to harass me. Like, it's not in England when I was growing up in England, you know, this all this. cat calling, all these drunk people, there's pubs everywhere, you get harassed constantly.

So, and I used to see women in America jogging and freely and no one's harassing them. I was like, I don't have to be afraid of men here. They're going to respect me. They're not going to care. And so that was an issue. I was like, John, I don't have to do this. You know, I don't have to be so uncomfortable and feel stigmatized and polarized when I go outside. Because no one, more people look at me when I'm covered.

than if I was uncovered, then he didn't care. He thought I was becoming too Americanized. He didn't like it. He didn't like me questioning him. He wanted me to be more submissive. And it was hard for me when I had children to be that submissive because I knew I was paying my children arrest. But at the end of the day, I was financially dependent on him

and I had no family. I didn't want to go back to my parents. My parents didn't want me. They never wanted me to be. begin with. I argue with my mom, like, why didn't use contraception properly? You know, like, that's how bad our relationship is. Like, if you didn't want me, why didn't you take the right precautions? Instead, I was raised like a servant. I know, I didn't, they didn't care if I went to school. I just had to make sure the house was clean, you know, and take care of my brother,

because my mom had to work, and my brother was too young to go to school, so I'd skip days of school to look after my brother. All my sisters had to. My sister's had to. My sister. My even when my sisters went to university, they were working jobs to provide for my parents because that's the only reason why that community from that very third world mentality region

thinks of children. Like, as if, like, okay, so I can explain it. If people work on a farm, they have children so that their children can work on the farm to help them. So it was very much the main. of we have children so that they can look after us and provide for us.

So that's what I saw my sisters go through. And I saw how depressed they were. And basically I wanted out. And I thought, and my parents weren't too religious then. They were just like culturally Muslim, didn't really care. And so I got married to John. They were happy with me marrying John because, sadly, because he's white. a white convert,

American passport, and from a military educated family. So they're like, oh, if they have any problems, they'll take care of her. Because they didn't want me. So, um...

So you take off the hijab and... I take off the jihad a hijab ten years later after I divorced John. After I leave John. No, but when he, when he is in prison, you start unveiling. Yeah. The robes and the face veil.

I kept the colorful hijab if he didn't like. And, and, but when he gets out, you still want to raise your kids as warriors. Yeah. You still. I was still indoctrinated because at that time, I was still, so in Islam, I don't know how it is of Christianity,

but your thoughts, if you have a thought that contradicts the Quran or Mahal Muhammad, it's a sin. So it's really hard to... So do you know what the word Israel actually means? Yeah, to wrestle. To wrestle. I want to be Jewish.

Yeah. I'm trying. It's a long process. I'm going to study it this year. I love Judaism very much. So... So you... You actually go to recruit people.

I didn't recruit anybody. I was a stay-at-home mom looking, homeschooling my kids. And that was hard for me. Like, I was homeschooling my kids. But so I started doing this. When John came out of prison, he wanted a child. I wasn't ready. And this is my second child.

I got pregnant straight away, had a baby. But then I came across this program called Your Baby Can Read and Your Child Can Read. And it's a great program. So I taught my, my second. son, his name's Laith, I told him how to read at nine months old. And by the age of two and half, he could read English, French, Italian, Greek, and Arabic. Holy cow. And I was, that was like, the most I had achieved in my life. Like, I was so proud of him. And he made me, like, the proudest mother in history. And I just said to John, he is not going on the front lines. Like, I would, like,

get sleepless nights and nightmares about losing this precious child. And I was like, I want so much more for him. I want him to give to the world. I don't want him to destroy the world. And so my mentality completely changed. Also, he took me to Egypt thinking that if Tanya goes to Egypt, she won't care about wearing the hijab, because everyone wears the hijab. But in Cairo, it's only half half, half the women do and half the women don't. And when I went to Egypt and I saw, what a broken country it was where like no the government does not function

whatsoever and I was like I don't want to be part of this I would rather live in the enemy's land of America you know the satanic America because life functions there if there is corruption it's not so blatantly in your face and I couldn't stand

all the bribery and all the it's a disgusting country Egypt is disgusting you know I'm very candid But, you know, I thought, oh, my God, it's almost just bad as Bangladesh where I came from. And so he thought being in Egypt would change me, but it made me resent Arabs and Islam so much more. And I just, I wanted to get away. And I wanted to, and so I would have John right to Homeland Security asking them, please let my, please let my wife and her children.

back because she can't handle being here, but they would reply no because of your reputation, we won't. Right. So that was really hard for me. I couldn't go back to England. My family would have just told me to go to a homeless shelter. And so I was stuck with him. And at this point, I was very suicidal.

I was trying to suffocate him. I used to tell him with the abuse. and just feeling so trapped and not having, like, any choices of my life. It was suffocating me and, like, if anything, my consciousness was suffocating. Because, like, things that I just hated, things like child marriages and, and, like, the treatment of the Dimmie class, the Christians and Jews, and how they would be demonized. And I just, I guess my Western upbringing in England

made me feel like, well, there's still humans and they shouldn't be treated like that. And they wouldn't treat us like that. It was, we were, my husband and I were always bumping, you know, hitting heads. And I'm like, and I always, like, felt like all these Muslim scholars in history, they're all men, because they're the ones who have access, education and they're talking about women's issues which they have no understanding of they don't know

what it's like to have a child they don't know what it's like to be a daughter-in-law or anything like that and and that used to frustrate me so I would encourage John to talk about women's rights online when he was in his speaking forums he had a following online it was called we hear and we obey and even that title comes from the Quran because there's a very anti-Semitic passage that says that the believers say we hear and we obey but the Jews say we hear and we disobey. So, and you know, even in the first,

the very first verse of the Quran, Al-Fatihah, it says, you know, something on the lines of God do not curse us like the Jews and do not be angry at us with the Christians. And you have to use the explanation of the Quran to understand the passages. And you're saying that five times a day. So it makes you, it's just like this religion of fear.

You're just like scared all the time. I'm paranoid that there are jinns. These genies, whispering in the ears. But really, that's your consciousness warning. It's a siren. You have to suppress that. And it's really hard. So I would,

my point was, you know, so we're always bickering, and he found me very difficult. He wanted a different wife. He wanted more wives. He wanted. So when, at what point,

um, did he say, I want to go to Syria? Okay. So that was, that was, so he wanted to go to Syria during 2011. and I wasn't ready.

I was like, there's no way I'm going to go with my kids. I have all these health issues. How am I going to have access to an electric toothbrush? Or, you know, like all my toilet trees and all these things. Like my lifestyle. I was selfish, but I was like, you know, I love Syria. It's Holy Land. In the Islamic scripture, it's where the Messiah returns to kill the Jews,

which just sounds horrible, but that's what it's. says. And then I was like, I just don't want to be part of it. I just want to be like, I want to be a grandmother one day. I want to see my children do well. I want to, you know, just live life, you know. Was Egypt a middle step for him hoping to get you to Syria? Well, well, Egypt was a place since there was no government for one year. So 2011 happened. There was no government. It was anarchy in Egypt. No one obeyed any single law. There was like no traffic laws, nothing. It was completely broken. He loved it. He thrived in it. No one was watching him as far as he was concerned. He was free. So that's where he could ramp up his rhetoric of jihad and also mistreat me and know that I have no probation

officer or anyone to turn to. I did ask his parents for help and I used to complain. They never believed me. They didn't want to believe that their son was a monster because honestly they didn't raise him to be that way. There's a little bit of misogyny, you know, like it's like old school relationship traditional with the father and the mother, but it wasn't, they just didn't want to

believe me. I was the outsider at the end of the day. So I was alone and I was dependent on him. And then so Syria came along where when the coup happened, the military coup happened and Mosei went, and there's even stories about Morsi where there were people from Europe coming over to us, they revered John because he had this website called the strangers guroba.info and it was, it had laid out all the criteria for who should be a caliph. Because John was one of the very few people that

had studied this, the caliphate, and wanted to implement the caliphate. And he knew that it was necessary. And under Islamic scripture, it is necessary. You can't have a body. Like, you have a community of Muslims. We're a body. But you can't have a body that's decapitated. So you have to have a head.

It's interesting because I know all of this. And while you were probably here and then on the way to Egypt, that's what I was being mocked. Everyone said there was no caliphate, and you were talking to your sister about one 10 years before, 11 years before. It's always been a plan. It's always the agenda, and the agenda is world domination.

Right. And it's, you know, it is, you know, right now, I always have this problem with some Muslims, and I'm not anti-Muslim. I feel like Muslims have all been manipulated equally as much as I have by this doctrine. We've been duped by this ideology of hate. And it's from Muhammad, a man who, like, suffered some sort of illness. I was on the Pierce Morgan interview once, and I suggested that maybe he had epilepsy. Maybe that's what made him see these visions, you know, we don't know,

because back then they didn't even have science. You know, they were still into medieval beliefs, You know, so what can we really trust? If a man is walking on a street and collapses and has a dream and says he sees God and gives him the message, I'm not going to believe him. I don't know him. He could be a criminal. But back then, they did. You know, so it was tough.

So you go to Syria. Unintentionally, he took me there. We weren't supposed to go to Syria. He wanted to go to Sudan to study, to teach English and Arabic because he was fluent in Arabic, fluent in a lot of the ancient scriptures. He had memorized the first Arabic dictionary, the very first grammar dictionary. Yeah, and I didn't realize he was autistic at the time, because he didn't look at it. So he like, he made me feel inferior because I just thought, oh God, I must be like a complete bimbo because he memorizes books. and I don't, mainly because I don't have the time.

I've got to focus on my kids' education. But so we wanted to go Sudan, but we needed money to escape because at the time in Egypt during the coup, Sisi was arresting anyone, all the foreigners. And if he were non-Islamic, he was saying, charging people for being spies for America or whatever. And if you're Islamic, he was saying, oh, you must be Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Aqaeda, even if you're neither. And I was living in Nasser City right there when the helicopters came and were shooting at the protesters.

I was lived like around the corner was the mosque. I forgot in the name of something like Rabia. And it was burnt down with people in the protesters were in there seeking sanctuary. the CC government burnt the place down. And I was horrifying, you know, like, but other things disturbed me in Egypt. While I was there, I used to see children going through garbage cans trying to pick things out. And I would just like burst out crying.

I could handle it. And John thought it was embarrassing. But I was like, these children should be in school. Why are they picking up trash for their parents? I couldn't handle the whole, it was a complete culture shock for me, it was unbearable. And, you know, at that time John was like, I'm going to get another wife, I've had enough of you, just like go back to your parents. I was like, yeah, like that's easy, you know.

There's three kids. Yeah, and then, and three kids with no reproductive rights, there's no, in Muslim scholars, reject the idea of, marital rape even though it's very real. John knew very well. I didn't want any more children with him. And still he impregnated me and I didn't want it with my fourth child. And then he went and left me with, you know, in Syria, while five months pregnant, just make it on my own, you know, because there's a verse in the crime that says that your

wives and your children are the biggest FITNA, which FITNA means like temptation, problem. So he didn't want the responsibility of us. He won't. Okay, so he becomes a commander in ISIS.

He kind of follows in his father and his grandfather's footsteps, except with the enemy of the United States. And that's what you wanted to do. He wanted to follow, he was like, he had some sort of pride. He was like, My grandfather was fought in World War II. My dad was in the Air Force.

I'm going to be in ISIS. Well, I used to say to him, and guess what's going to happen to your kids? Because I learned the history of the Russians and the Chechnians. Chechnine fathers would abandon their fathers, and the children would join the Russian army. Now my kids want to go to West Point and join the military, which I pray to God that they will, you know, because they really want to make their grandfather proud

and they want to prove to America that, you know, that their loyalty is for here. So tell me about your time in as an ISIS bride. I mean, you were there, he was a commander. Okay, so to make it clear, I left ISIS, so I left Syria six months before ISIS declared a caliphate. Okay. I am the luckiest mother and wife who got out in time because I could have been one of those women trapped in those prison camps with the Kurds. I'm the only one who has made it back to America, de-radicalized and not had to face prison or be in those camps or be dead. But you, there was a chance you were going to be dead trying to get out.

Yeah. Tell me how you got out. I wasn't expecting that. Like I wasn't prepared. It was entering Syria. So like first, it's a long story how we got there. We were never planning to go to Turkey. But we needed finances to leave Egypt.

But the only people, the only person we could get money from was his dad. And his dad was like, no way. I'm not sending you to Sudan. That's a crazy idea. I didn't want to go sit down. It's too hot. And the people are lazy because it's hot. And then John was like, Philippines.

And I was like, the Philippines is fine. But I looked at pictures and I was like, I don't want to live on stilts with like snakes underneath. And I was like, I want a real home. And so I wanted to go to Greece. But then John's parents were like, no, you can't go to Greece with a hijab. They're going to think you're a refugee or a gypsy and they're not going to treat you right. I was like, well, I'm happy to take my hijab off, but John wouldn't allow it. Seriously, I did not want to wear the hijab for so many years, and I was locked in my house because of that.

And so Turkey was the compromise. So we were in Turkey, Istanbul. I was so happy. I was like, oh, it's clean. It's not filthy like Egypt, and it's more like Europe. And I was so happy, but he was like, it's too expensive, and I'm not going to learn Turkish. We've got to go to the eastern side where they speak Arabic. And I was like, okay, fair enough.

How bad can it be? I've never been there. I went there. I was horrified. It was full of Syrian refugees. And I was really panicking and hormonal from being pregnant. And I was freaking out every moment. And he was like, we, we.

We were waiting for money to be transferred and the money didn't come. And then we ended up getting on a bus because we were sleeping on the streets because we couldn't get a hotel room. All the hotels, the Syrians were given priority over hotel rooms. So the only place we could stay that night in Gaziantap was a Syrian hostel. And I refused to stay there because I was like, oh, like, I haven't. My kids and I are allergic to bed bugs, like really badly. and it was filthy and I said I'd rather sleep on the streets with my kids pregnant and we were there

two o'clock in the morning on the streets and a bus came to the Syrian hostel for the refugees and let them off to go stay there John went and spoke to them I didn't speak because I wasn't allowed to have interaction with men and so yeah so like 10 years of having no interaction with the opposite sex, which is difficult, right? And so he went to talk to them. He said, get on the bus, because you knew we were exhausted. And I was like, oh, I can sit down and sleep. I didn't know where the bus was going.

And it ended up driving to the checkpoint of the Turkish Syrian border. And there we got out, and I was, like, having a meltdown. And John was like, don't make, you know, women aren't allowed to. We're not even allowed to speak loudly in public. We have to keep quiet. It's like, it's only two weeks, it's only two weeks. I reassure you, it's only because we don't have the money. And then he said, as soon as we get the money, we'll go back to Turkey,

because that was the plan to stay in Turkey and help the rebels from Turkey, because there's a lot of that happening. There was no mention of the caliphate at the time, because at the time I didn't really even thought, I didn't think I'd see a caliphate in my lifetime, but I thought maybe my children would. and then so we ended up going into Syria the Turkish border guards didn't care

they didn't question me they didn't question my friend who's an Irish citizen because women they didn't want to talk to us John Lai so at this checkpoint there are Tunisian foreign fighters and you know you can see them they got the big beards they got the collational coughs they got it and and they just said to John just say your passports on the other side.

And he did. And he passed. They didn't care. They let us through. As soon as we got there, then the militia, the Islamic militia, question John. They said, who do you know? He gave them some references. They called up the references.

The people said, take care of this guy. Take care of his family. So they put us into an abandoned general's home. It was like a mansion. but the windows had been shattered. There were gun bullets, there was holes, the water tank at the top had been broken. We had no electricity.

It was really hard. So I was there for, like they kept moving us. It was a military base, so it's where the militia would come and have meetings, so we could only stay there for a week. And then so I was only in Syria for three weeks, and John didn't have a cell phone at this time that worked in the Syria. He had a cell phone that worked in Turkey, but it didn't work in Syria.

So we kept moving. And then as soon as John got a cell phone, I called his mother, and I said, John did exactly what he said he wouldn't do because he promised me and he promised his mother he would not take us to Syria. He said, we were going to stay in Antioch in Turkey. But he ended up taking us to Gassian, Turpin from there to Syria. And I called her up and I said, please. call the FBI,

tell them that I'm so desperate to get out of here because if we don't, we're not going to just have one terrorist, American terrorist, but he's going to make my children terrorists. And I didn't want to see that. That was the biggest problem to me and John is that I really wanted my children to

have a fulfilling life. I wanted them to live and be educated, and all he cared about was an Islamic, primitive medieval education. And it was a huge problem. And the differences arose from, strangely, from the internet. So like using Facebook.

I was, so prior to Syria, we were in Egypt, and we would speak in political forums with Jews, Christians, atheists, and John was Muslim, and we would debate. And I loved these debates. And it made me realize how much I love Americans, too, because they're a prince of all. I fell in love with John, even his Americans. side, but I loved American people.

And so he, you know, this opened my mind a lot, like just hearing their arguments and the debates and not, and feeling more of an affiliation to them than I did with the Muslims. You know, the Muslims were so nihilistic and the Muslims didn't care about things like, I cared about saving the bees. I cared about, like, you know, pollution and things. And for them, they're like, it's the end of the world. Jesus will take care of it, God will take care of it, whatever. And I was like, well, you know, we can help with these problems.

But we just had different priorities altogether because at the end of the day, their goal was to die to live an eternal life in paradise. Because to them, and my husband, my ex-husband, this life is a dream. It's not real. And so the hadiths say, when you go to paradise, you look back at this world and it's just like a dream. Dreams are insignificant. And so that's how lightly they take this world.

And that's how much they depreciate life. They don't value human life. Not for their families, not for their children. And that's why it's so poisonous. When you came across the border to leave Syria, how did you get back across? So that was really rough I was five and a half months pregnant

So I'd waited three weeks Until the fighting had stopped So that the borders would be open for me to cross And the Syrians were like Malash Malash I would say like Or that's the Egyptian are like This is no problem, it's easy I thought I was under the impression

It would be as easy to leave as it was to get in because the Turkish border guards didn't care. But it wasn't. The Syrian guards were on these posts shooting at us. We were running. I was so scared. My kids were frightened. We had to run through barbed wire.

We had to get into a human trafficking truck. John paid the human trafficker. He crossed the border with us to Turkey. He could have come with us, but he wouldn't. He said, I'm not going to. I begged him on my hands and knees while pregnant cry. please take me to the airport because I'd never been alone in my life. I said, please take me to the airport.

And he said, no, because you've reported me to the FBI and they're going to arrest me. So it's your fault. So he wouldn't take me. So he left me with this human trafficker that left me, he drove up, you know, took John's money, drove up, left me in the middle of nowhere in Turkey. I didn't know. I didn't speak Turkish. it was a dirt road with just grass and fields and heels. And I was solving.

I didn't know which way left right anywhere. Everybody else in the truck just, they scattered like cockroaches in their own ways. And I was just there alone crying and sobbing. My poor kids had to see me. My kids were just carrying the luggage and I was pushing a stroller. And then a guy came on a motorcycle and saw us how distressed we were. And he said, he can speak Arabic, he can speak English, he spoke Turkish.

And the only word that we could get across was Mechtad or like station. I need to get to the bus station. So he said, I will take one child at a time, a luggage, and take them to the station. And I was so afraid. Yeah, I bet. Because they have organ trafficking, drug trafficking, sex trafficking in that region. It's so dominant. Even in Egypt, it's so prevalent. Kids go missing all the time. So what made you decide to take him up on the offer? I put my trust in God. I didn't have any other option. So I didn't know what else to do. So he went, he took my eight-year-old and a luggage bag, and then he came back. Then he took my four-year-old and a luggage bag and went back. And as a Muslim woman, I wouldn't have sat in.

near him on a bicycle motorbike because it's like too close proximity. So I walked with a stroller and I had two racks, six months pregnant, and dehydrated. I forgot to bring water with me. And I get criticized for that, not bringing drinking water, but I was like, my hands were full. I thought John had water. He thought I had water. We didn't have water. My kids had infections.

I had an infection. We were sick. But this man was very good and he took my kids to the bus station. He came and he drove slowly while I pushed up the hill. It was like a two-mile walk and then I got to the bus station. I saw my kids were safe. And then John had arranged another trafficker, Syrian trafficker, who I could tell was a real radical.

He had shaven his beard and everything, but he wouldn't look at me with disgust because I wasn't covered up. my face wasn't covered, my body. You know, I didn't wear the robes like his family does. So he wouldn't even talk to me. Like I was not even human. Like something disgusting. I was like, okay, I've got to work with him regardless.

And then him and his family, I gave them 60 euros. They drove me to Gaziantep Airport. And from Gazianept Airport, John's father had booked tickets for us to go to Istanbul. and then by the time I got to Istanbul, I had to go to the emergency room because I nearly had a miscarriage. I had to leave my kids in a hotel room alone,

which really frightened me, because that's like three kids. I got an eight-year-old, a four-year-old, and a one-and-a-half-year-old staying in a hotel room by themselves. While you're having a baby. While I'm getting, like, fluids put into me because I was so dehydrated.

And the Turkish, the ER, people were horrible. They just didn't show an ounce of kindness to me. And they were wondering why I was mad at them. So at one point I was just so mad. I was like, I was tearing out the IV. And I said, just, I'm going to go back home. I need to go to my kids.

I went back to the hotel, found my kids asleep, sound asleep. This was like six hours. I was in the hospital. And then they were sleeping. and there was like this a male hotel guy sitting there. But I kind of freaked out because I would have preferred a woman to be watching my kids. I got paranoia, but I was like, I know what happens in hotels. I know what kind of business they run.

It's not shady sometimes. But, you know, he didn't harm my kids, but I was a very overprotective mother. And so he left. Then my former mother-in-law, John's mother, caught my family in England. and said, please help Tanya. She's in the hotel. She had to leave. John abandoned them.

And my family said, no. They was like, no, we're not going to help her. And then she basically had to beg. And so one of my sisters, my parents told one of my sisters, please go help. So she came, picked us up from Turkey. Because they all familiar at Turkey. They're Muslims. They go all over the Muslim world.

they were fine with it. They won't come to America, though, because they're anti-American, but they picked us up from Turkey. I was in a wheelchair, and the American government said, we can't save you from Syria, but if you cross the border and come to the UK, you have to come back to the US within two weeks because we have to record everything you saw in those two weeks.

And I was like, I'm more than happy to help you. America saved me it goes back to before I went to Syria where I was a stay-at-home mom I was you know homeschooling my kids which is really tough work and I would watch things like Fox News business I would listen to

Judge Andrew Napolitano I would listen to Ron Paul they taught me about the U.S. Constitution this was enlightenment for me it was You said that when you read the Declaration of Independence, you had never read anything like that before. Freedom of thought, freedom of thinking, rights for humans.

It's incredible. Like, as Muslims, we have to think the word of God is perfect. We're not allowed to disagree. But I was like, hang on, this is a value system that is so much more humane, so much more merciful to human nature than a 14th century angry Arab god and who's also misogynist and homophobic and hates everyone who's not a Muslim

and I was like you know I was like I found something more beautiful and and you know of course John didn't appreciate that but I I fell for it I fell in love I was like this is what I need this is what my children need this is what the world needs you've read Thomas

pain. I love Thomas Payne. Yeah, I read The Age of Region, the Age of Reason, rights of man. I got some of the words. What did you think of that? Okay, so I went to Facebook headquarters once and I had to go discuss with them their responsibility for spreading terrorism with the groups, the foreign groups. But that was why I went there with a group, the parents, for peace. But I had to thank them because I was like that I read a meme and the meme said a cruel god, I don't have my bag here, but I had a notes, but it was something like, the belief of a cruel god makes a cruel man. And when I read that meme, it's so powerful, a small meme, it struck me so hard. And I was like, no one has expressed what I've been feeling so clearly.

Because I knew it and I felt it every single day. And he had the freedom as a non-Muslim to put it into words. Because it's blessed for me to say such a thing in Islam. But it was true. And I remember saying to John, John, Thomas Payne says all these amazing quotes. And, you know, I wasn't raised with the American founding fathers or anything. So I was like, this is so incredible. He said, yeah, I read Thomas Payne while I was in prison.

He's good, but you stay away from him. And I was like, oh, I'm fine. But once John was out of the picture, I could read every material I wanted. You know, I started studying humanism. I started just reading everything. I could, like philosophy, psychology. I wanted to make sense of why my life was the way it was.

Like, because even I was like, this is too crazy. I need to make sense of, of it. So are you, you're not Muslim? No way. Yeah. And I don't want to be a slave. And that's what I got to say. Islam is enslavement. It's enslavement for men, women, children, minorities. And if you're not a slave, you're going to be killed. I know it sounds Islamophobic, but it's legitimate. It's a legitimate reason, even the Crusades. Like, the Muslims and everybody wants to criticize the Crusades,

or how they attacked the Middle East and everything. But if you look at the secular history of it, the Muslims were invading Europe and killing far more Europeans than in comparison to what happened to the Crusades. The Crusades was like a

very minor battle compared to the invasion of the Ottomans and the Arabs. of Europe that had been going on for so long. So like I was without John, without my husband being my God, telling me what I can and can't think, I could see the picture clearly.

And it was enlightening. So you probably think that Thomas Payne atheist? No, he's a deist. Isn't he? He believes in God. Yeah. I just want to show you something. Thomas Payne was known as he went over to help free the people of France.

And he got into a real bad argument with George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, who was like his father. And he said, you don't you see it? It's liberty. But when he got over there, they started beheading everybody. And it turned into just a bloodbath. And the reason why he said this, he started to get into trouble with them because he said, wait, this didn't happen in America. But what he noticed was they were rejecting God.

And that's when he wrote his books that you have read. And he was trying to explain to the French. But the Americans read that and said, you're rejecting God. Most people leave the story at that, and most scholars leave it at that. This is Thomas Payne's letter to Benjamin Franklin. That's his action. I love Benjamin Franklin. This is, that's his letter.

And in it, he talks about how I'm trying to, I was trying to express to the French who have lived through. horrible, horrible religious persecution, where their churches were just organs of the state, and it wasn't about God. And I was trying to tell them that they need God, but I understand how they feel about the church. This is beautiful.

This is amazing. And my handwriting is very similar. It is it. I'm not a writer, but I'm good at a handwriting. I'll show you one more, one more, one more thing. Oh my goodness. So this is the actual document that Thomas Payne wrote to Benjamin Franklin? Yeah.

Oh my God. Yeah. It's pretty amazing, isn't it? It is. And it goes on page. I know. I wish I could read all of it. Yeah.

Well, I'll leave it with you for a few and you read it. This I thought you might enjoy as well. This is the plan, but this is the first American printing of it. Oh. uh this was he says edited it's not edited oh well i'm going to have to go in and scrap out every misogyny homophobic every yeah well actually i think what's interesting is this came Thomas Jefferson said when they started the Barbary pirates uh the war with Barbary pirates it was our first war and it was a war against Islam and um and Thomas Jefferson

and he fought it, but he didn't snuff it out. And so he said everyone in America should read the Quran. And so they printed the entire Quran. He didn't edit, he didn't take it out of context, but what he did do is they added to the reader. And it says here that you have to read this and you will not believe the absurdities, of how many people in the world believe that this stuff is true.

And it comes with a warning that if we don't understand this book, they will never stop. This is a book of jihad. It's a manual for jihad. And you can interpret it to believe anything you want. Like the apologists can interpret it however they want. But Muhammad took it literally the book. He didn't interpret it. He heard and he obeyed. And every ruling of jihad is in that book.

It's a dangerous book. But it can easily be refuted to because it's inhumane. It doesn't apply to modern times. It can't be changed. And it's just unscientific even. Like Muhammad, for example, he was a merchant. I think the closest he knew to, like embryology was goats having miscarriages or whatever because he talks about the fetus and he talks about how there's not a heartbeat

until like three weeks into the process and so you can, in Islam you can have an abortion within before 21 days and I know in the Bible it says life starts

at contraception that signs it says it's with a zygote and then it becomes a baby. But I like that those are the things that fascinate people. Also like another unscientific thing that Muhammad said, he said that sperm comes from the ribs of man. Then what is the scrotum for? He was a merchant who was illiterate. He didn't know science.

So tell me, how come you're not dead? I don't think anyone cares. I'm killing me. Thank goodness. They got bigger fish to fry. But, you know. I mean, I've sat with Ian Herssey Alley. I don't know if you know her.

I admire her. Incredibly brave. And so intelligent, yeah. And she had a security person right off the side of the camera. How come, I mean, you're, you have said several things that. I said that crime is a terrible book. Yeah, you've said several things that would mark you. Yeah.

Is your ex-husband, John? Is he dead? He's probably dead. He died in 2017 in the Battle of Mayodine. It was the Russians and the Syrian government attacking an entire city. They blew it up. And, of course, there's no evidence. They can't, they can't, so no one can investigate and find the DNA because the war's going on.

Until the war's over, then they can go to these areas and find. Are you close to? his family? I love his mother. His mother's was a better mother to me than my own mother. And I know that's because she's got a very

good Christian heart. My children are Christian, Orthodox Christian. I love his mother. We're very close. His dad is a very staunch military type of man. Very proud.

He has every reason to be proud. He did everything by the book he was very successful you know quarterback in must point he's a doctor i mean i can but we don't we're from two different worlds it's almost like i wouldn't never have anything to do with them if it wasn't for john and my children so we don't get along too well but he loves my children and and that's i mean i can ask for more you know like my children are privileged I don't always say the right thing. Like, sometimes I flip out and say, well, at least you're not an orphanage.

Or at least you're not in a boarding school. But those aren't the right things I say, I should say. But they are loved. You know, most people in the world would die for to be in their place. And they know that. Let's drive you nuts hearing people talk about America. Yeah, I hate, like, a lot of things that I hear, like the inequality. I'm like, you have no idea what you're talking about.

And the racism, people talk about America being racist. I'm like, you have, this isn't true. America's not racist. I've lived in Europe and they are very hostile. Like, I had to live with racism most of my life there. And then when I came to America, I was like, people are so nice. And, you know, a little bit of... You have our problems, but everybody does.

The history is bad everywhere in the world. There's always genocide. There's always this competition of survival of the fittings. and who has the stronger weapons. And I get it. Even with Israel, I understand now, you know, a much better picture. Now that I know Jewish people, I understand, I'm studying the history of Israel. What Israel has done, you know, the Jewish people have done for that land,

and they had nowhere else to go. And it wasn't even developed by the Palestinians. The Palestinians weren't even a thing until, like, the Philistines or the Palestinians, The Palestinians in the Bible, they're not the same people that live today. These are, the Palestinians are, you know, they probably have, you know, hereditary Jewish lines in their family, but a lot of them are Egyptians, you know, and they never made Israel a democratic country the way that it is. It was empty land. It was just desert with nomads. And these nomads are the most primitive human beings you can imagine.

They don't have any concept of science or recycling or human rights. They don't know. All they know is their poetry, songs, and drinking tea. And I sound crass. I'm sorry. That's all right. But it's from my experience, I've seen it all. And I know Israel helps the Palestinians and the Palestinians do not, they don't shed light on it.

They just completely, it's all like they're the victim. And that's the problem with Muslims. They always play the victim. Well, how about thinking about for 1,400 years, how many people were victimized by jihad? Millions of people's lives were ruined. You know, you get genocides from every part, you know, from anyone who wasn't Muslim. You surrender or you die or you pay the jizier and you're humiliated. What are you going to do now?

Well, for the last four years, I've been really trying hard to work with NGOs to get into prison. systems to do de-radicalization program. I want a mandatory education for these people. I want them to learn exactly what I learned. I, you know, what did I study? I started American history. I studied human rights. I studied things like YouTube channels like crash course history and science. So educational and it's free. I did Coursera courses. Are you familiar with Coursera? So they're like Ivy League schools who do classes online. You can pay for certificates or you don't pay is free. But since it's free, these things taught me how to be a good citizen.

Like, you know, it reprogrammed me. I needed it, but I was open to it. I wanted to relearn. Because I wanted to survive. I mean, I wanted my children to survive. One thing I cannot understand about the Muslims who are still stuck in that mentality is that they really don't believe this life. real, they're delusional, they're living in a fantasy world and I was there once, we need to break

that free from them because that's an oppression on them even. They've been exploited. But as a, you know, they've been exploited and then they spread tyranny and then they think they're the victims. I just want them like, okay, if we imprison them and they're or in how, under house arrest, they need education because education is enlightenment and they will get that. You know, we do comparative studies of different value systems. It's really important. If I can learn, and I'm telling you, I was never a very bright child. If I can learn, they can learn.

But not enough people support it because they don't have the heart to invest in helping these extremists, even like neo-Nazi... You know, neo-zis and Antifa. Is there a... So much in common. So much in common. So much in common. And the main point is using violence to achieve a political means.

If we could just teach them, like, you don't have to turn to violence. You have to do it through the political process, through process. It takes patience. It takes teamwork. But you don't have to kill people for it. If you have to kill people for an idea, guess what? It's a bad idea. you know and they need logic but when when they're in this collective mindset and they're like trapped

in these camps and things they're not hearing my voice they're hearing only each other's voices and right now in these camps the Kurdish camps the extremist women are bullying and killing women who don't want to be affiliated with ISIS the 14 year old girl got killed the other week because she didn't want to cover like she's just a woman. want to go to their face veil. And women who talk to reporters, they get poop thrown at them. Their children are beaten up. I just can't understand. I understand there's 70,000 people on a camp. We have lots of money to go to war, but we need to go into these camps and separate the dangerous people from the harmless people. It's really important. These harmful mothers who are still

brainwashed by ISIS are child abusers. They are not good. They should not have rights to their children. I know it's cruel to separate your children, but even I needed separation from my own children to grow as a human being. I needed an identity. I needed to re-educate and reprogram myself, to survive for my children's sake. And it's the only way. Like, it's just like, there's not enough people who care about those people in the camps because it's far away. But if we don't do something about it, the Kurds are suffering. They can't cope with the amount of people. They don't have the resources to feed these people even,

and they're going to let them go. And ISIS are waiting. ISIS will are determined to come back. And I just want to end it. I just, if I feel like if we could just educate these people and make these people see that Islam is something of the past, and it should stay in the past. But there was a stage of enlightenment thinkers,

which was the best thing ever, and now we have things like the scientific methodology. We understand how that works. We've grown. We live in the age of knowledge, and they're in the dark ages. Well, we've got to get them out. And especially the American children. There are American children there.

They don't deserve to be there. Tanya? Yes, sir. Thank you. You're welcome. Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend

so it can be discovered by other people.