The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 68 | Billy Graham’s Daughter: Kanye & Deepest Confessions | Ruth Graham | The Glenn Beck Podcast

Episode Date: February 22, 2020

Few people would expect the daughter of the late world-renowned evangelist Billy Graham to have the history of depression, divorce, addiction, and emotional abuse that she does. But through it all, she held tightly to God and has learned to forgive her husbands, her father, and even herself. Ruth Graham speaks with Glenn about the life she hid and the life of Christ she believes can work miracles in everyone. She reveals her deepest lessons learned growing up as the middle child of the pastor to the presidents, what Christians see in President Trump, and why she praises the Lord for Kanye West. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast, I want to introduce you to somebody who's had a lot of struggle in her life. And she is the least expected to have struggle in her life. She lived in the shadow of a very famous father, a man who led congregations around the world, who was the pastor for presidents, I think, from maybe Truman on. In one of her books, she wrote, I know what it's like to sit in a pew with a broken heart. She has battled depression, addiction, shame, divorce, bulimia, unwed pregnancy. Her latest book is Forgiving My Father, Forgiving Myself. It's a meditation on forgiveness.

In it, she quotes Pastor Greg Ogden, who writes, At the core of every human being is the desire for deep and satisfying relationships because we are all created in the image of God. Our conversation, I think, is proof of those words. She starts out by telling me a secret. And one, she was afraid to tell me. Ruth Graham, the daughter of Reverend Billy Graham. Hi.

How are you? I'm so good. So good to see you. Yeah, good to see you. Thank you. I love you so much. Thank you. And I love you.

Appreciate you. Yeah. You're a good woman. Well, thank you. And brave. As people will find out, if they don't know your story, they will find out. But I want to talk to you first about some things that are, have you paid any attention to Kanye West? I have.

As a matter of fact, I was watching last night on the news when he was with Joel Osteen. And just fascinated, just fascinated with what's happened. I don't know his story yet. I haven't heard his story. But I am fascinated. There's a couple of things going on that I'd be interested in hearing from you. Somebody who has led the life that he did. I mean, it's crazy.

It's crazy. Oh, yeah. Crazy. And he's with the Kardashian, so it's still crazy. Yep. But he seems to have had a road to Damascus kind of moment. And I think the dog piling on him when he said I was a Trump supporter, or not even that, just I don't have to vote the way everybody thinks. I think that pounded him.

And can you truly be... truly in God's hands if you haven't been pounded by him. Dr. A. W. Tozer said, a man, God can only use a man that he's broken. Can't use a man greatly until he's wounded him deeply, something like that. And I think that's true, Glenn. And I think you and I would both attest to that in our own lives. It was only in brokenness that we felt like God really got a hold of us. And so we can be grateful for the brokenness.

Because we, and I don't know anything about, about Kanye, but just looking at my life, and I think you could relate to this, you tend to puff yourself up when you're really afraid, you know, like puffers fish. You puff yourself up and you have to tell that story to keep going because you're so wounded inside. But once you let go, that's when God can. That's right. And I think the scripture says don't judge anything before it's time. Let God judge it. And I think that's what we need to do with Kanye is to let him, not use him. Because so often evangelicals love to use a new testimony, you know, and I think we have to be careful. Paul was sent to the desert for three years. So we need to give Kanye his three years, whatever that means. It doesn't even, does it matter? because I've been saying to the audience, this is great to watch. And I think,

and I'm picking him at face value, I think it might be real. That's great. However, he's going to make a mistake. Because we all do. And it might even be, and I don't think it is, but it might even be fake.

I don't think so. I don't think so either. But that shouldn't matter. Don't we get lost when we put our faith in man. His message is bringing people together and they're experiencing something. But it's not Kanye that they're experiencing. No, and he's lifting up the name of Jesus. Right. And that's important. And Jesus said if they're not against us, they're for us. So I'm going to take Kanye at face value

and praise the Lord for him. Yeah. In his testimony. Are the days, your father told me something the first time we met and I asked him where's the next you? Where's the next Abraham Lincoln and George Washington? And he said, I don't think it's going to happen that way this time.

Did he tell you that? I'd love to hear your explanation of this. He said that God is just going to use all these little people and everybody's going to stand up in their own way, and I mean this is before the internet really kicked out and he said they're all just going to find each other and they're going to all start connecting

and they'll think to themselves I'm alone and how am I supposed to accomplish this and then they'll connect with somebody else who was trying to accomplish something but they had the missing piece for this person and this person had the other missing piece and he said it'll come together that way everyone will know it's not man it's God

it is God and Glenn I tend to think that It might be through the arts, and Kanye may be a part of it. Look at the passion of the Christ and what it did. You know, it might come through the arts. It's not going to, I don't think it's going to come from stadium preaching like my father. But certainly there's room for that. But I'm interested to see what God's going to do. He's very creative, and he'll do what he wants.

Your dad, Stadium preaching, really changed the world. In many ways. And he was unique. Very. At that. You think that time has passed? Is it a... Let me rephrase it.

Millennials, they don't like church. No, not at all. But I got a news for... I don't like church. I talked to a pastor this weekend. He said, I say to my wife sometimes on Sundays, I don't want to go to church. She's like, you have to.

but they don't like church they don't like the central they don't like the doctrine that is spewed without the work they want to make a difference they do so i kind of see this millennial generation going down and saying i don't like church and i tend to understand it and agree with them and no one seems to be saying, hey, let's go make a difference. You know, church is a building the way we've been defining it, but that's not what it's supposed to be. No, no, it's people. Right.

It's people. So are you optimistic about the trends you're seeing with millennials or? I have to be optimistic because I know God is at work. I don't necessarily see it, but then I don't have to. You know, God's the one that's in charge. And I really, I trust God to do what he's going to do. I read Revelation a couple summers ago to study it. And the only thing I came away with was God has a plan, and he's in charge,

and that's all I need to know. And I think that's really all we need to know. How do you explain to people the Christian movement that has latched on to somebody like Donald Trump? I don't know that I can answer that, Glenn. I think they like his policies. They don't particularly care for the man and the language he uses. But we have to remember he is a construction worker from the Bronx.

And that's what we got. Yeah. And he's rough. He's very rough. But I like his policies. I like his pro-life policies. I like his Israel policy. I like the way he loves the military.

And I think he loves this country. I do too. I agree with his China policy. I have lots of things that I disagree with. But I can separate that. But, you know, on this impeachment that's been going on, I've been doing some exposés on. You know, Donald Trump is a handker.

grenade. You know, and the American people threw him into the Oval Office, and he's going to blow stuff up. And he did. With Ukraine, he blew some stuff up, and a wall came down, and if you take the time to look, you're like, wait a minute, yeah, yeah, dust him off. He's okay. What's behind that wall, you know? And I wanted to ask you, is there a difference between being used for good and used for God or used by God? They can be one and the same. But I think the ultimate good is God. So when we are doing good,

we are doing what God would have us do. But we don't necessarily, and I don't mean it this way. What you've gone through, what I've gone through, I've made some horrible mistakes. I had bad decisions surrounded by sometimes bad people drinking alcoholism, all bad. However, while that was bad, God used it for good. Absolutely.

And that's different than somebody who has been called by God, who is doing good works, and God is really shaping him. God, I think, can use a good person and a wrecking ball. You know what? It doesn't matter. He's God. Exactly. Exactly. He's in charge. Right. And I trust him. So let's talk a little bit about your journey. I am, and I want to get to this later, I think I pulled it out here.

There's a place in chapter 10. You caught me back to myself. My father put ministry before family. God gave him his family first, but he left his, let the pressures of his ministry take over, leaving his family sometimes for six months at a time. I felt as if when I needed him most, he was the farthest away. He once estimated that while we were growing up, he traveled over 50% of the time. And when he was home, he was tired, preoccupied, and surrounded by six.

staff and those who needed him. There were others nearly constantly present with him and our family. Our daughter of a daughter of a former U.S. president told me once, staff ruins intimacy. She was right. Privacy for long, thoughtful conversations or tender moments of intimate connection with my father was rare. And a busy, distracted father cannot spend much time developing a relationship with a

quiet middle child. And Glenn, I want to make it very clear. I am not criticizing my father, not in the least. No, I think in one time you might have. Yes, I might have. Yeah, but you're not now. No, I'm not in that place. I adored my father, and you know that.

Yeah. I just, he was my hero, and he still is, and miss him terribly. But it is true that his traveling did have repercussions in our life, and each one of us maybe handled it differently. I handled it the way I handled it, which was very destructive. I was looking for security because I didn't feel secure as a lot. little girl because he wasn't there. And I married early at 18 that ended in divorce after 21 years. So I had a rebound marriage that ended after three months. I married again, a man that I really

adored. But after 10 years, he decided he didn't want to be married. And then I married again. And this, Glenn, last time we had the conversation, I shared with you part of my story, but I was too embarrassed to tell you about my fourth marriage. I was so full of shame. It was It was eating me alive and it's eaten me ever since. And I need to ask you forgiveness for that because I wasn't totally honest with you. I wasn't transparent. And yet we thought I was.

You know, I left you with the impression that I was, but I wasn't. And I felt very badly about that. And I thought, oh, Glenn's going to find out I've been married four times and you'll think I'm a fraud. But I was looking for security. And it wasn't until someone looked at me. A conversation I had with a friend in Nashville. And he looked at me, he said, Ruth, as a little girl, you felt abandoned.

I did not want that to be true. Again, because my father was my hero, I adored him. But that piece of the puzzle fit. And since that day on, it was clear that I didn't need a man to take care of me. I had all I needed in Jesus. But it wasn't until that point and after four marriages. So let's start at the beginning. And I'm not married now, and I don't plan to get married again.

Yeah, good. Let's let's let's come from let's let's start at the beginning because I've I've doggyered a few of the pages It's a great book of a great spiritual book. It's a great book of common sense and and healing and I think I know I know we all struggle with the same things But nobody says them out loud and so you think you're alone And you think Do you really think I would have judged you that way?

I didn't know, Glenn. But I was, I was grieved in my heart that I had done that to you. And I just... I wish you would have reached out because... Well, I wish ahead. We would have laughed that off. It's we sit and we make things worse because we are somehow or another convinced that

we're the only one that says screwed up. That's right. When everybody is screwed up, but I already knew I had screwed up three times. Why could I admit the fourth? You know, to me that was just over the top. And I just couldn't go there. Okay.

So let's start here. You start with a summer in Switzerland. And your dad disciplines you for fighting with your brother, right? And he decides he's going to discipline you, but not your brother. So tell a story. Well, we were all gathered together for family devotions. and my younger brother was kept poking me

and I would poke him back you know as children do and finally you don't think of Billy Graham's family you know what I mean which must have been a problem but

so finally my father stepped in and he separated us and he put mother between us he said now stop it now so he proceeded to read the Bible to us and my brother reached around front of mother and poked no reached around her back and poked me. And I reached around front and poked him. Daddy saw me and he got me and he put me over

his knee and he spanked me and I was mortified because it wasn't just the family. It was other friends that were there. And my father never punished us ever. So I was heartbroken. But he held me close. He wouldn't let me go because I wanted to go to my room. After the spanking. He would, he held me close and he held me close to his heart, which was a good lesson. You know, sometimes we are And it is hard, but we're being held close to the father's heart. But you didn't feel that for a long time. No, not for a long time. Because I would imagine that, I mean, disciplining in front of strangers, even the family,

embarrassment, you know, humiliation, and then you not thinking it was fair. It wasn't fair. Right, because she's your brother, you know. did he say anything to you about that? Did he, when he was holding you? No, just that he loved me. And just to be still, you know, that this was something he had to do, that I was wrong for reaching around and hitting him, poking him.

But he didn't see that my brother had poked me first. But that didn't matter to him, I guess. And obviously, it's been 60-some years, so I still remember it. So it really made an impression on me. But, you know, that's something you have to, It is unfair. But we have to forgive the unfair things in our life. I was raised.

I mean, your chapter forgiveness isn't fair. I was raised. Life isn't fair. Who promised you that life was fair. And I think people are selling that now. That life can be fair. That somebody can make this right. Everybody gets a trophy.

Right. or or even you know you had a hard life so I'll fix that for you and it's there's there's no way to fix um you go on so you you start talking about you start talking about how it's not fair and then in in chapter three um you talk about um god's heartbeat and And you said, little did I know that in truth, time buries all wounds that are not dealt with. This is so, I spent so much of my life saying, oh, it's fine. I'm fine. You know, people would say, have you ever really dealt with your mother's suicide?

Yeah, I'm fine. How'd you deal with it? I love that phrase. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. And, well, how did you deal with it? I just got over it.

It doesn't bother me. And I really truly believed to that. But when you say it buries all wounds, they, so buried they remain, securely tucked away beneath layers of denial and repression, until I experienced a life-altering trauma, one that shook me to my core and threatened to tear off my well-worn mask.

suddenly I found my understanding of forgiveness wholly inadequate, and I floundered. Big time. Tell me. Well, that was after my husband's infidelity. I'd been married 18 years, and he'd been unfaithful for a number of years. And I was not prepared for that. I'd grown up around honorable men, and it just never occurred to me that he would have an affair. And not just one affair, but several affairs for years.

and I just, the rug was pulled out from under me, just, and I floundered. I didn't, that's when I sort of went into depression. I didn't have answers. I felt like I had to keep the mask on to pretend that everything was okay, but I was coming a part of the seams. Depression set in, I didn't know what was going on. What year was this? This was 1993, I think.

1993. Mm-hmm. Or 94. I guess, no, 91, because we were divorced in 91. And those that I expected to stand with me didn't. They didn't understand. And they thought I should remain with him, reconcile at all cost. I was even told to build an extra bedroom on my house and have him live in the house.

And I said, that's not honoring to God. I said, God wants us to be honest. So that was a rough time. That was a real rough time. And, but I came through it. And I was leaning on the Lord the whole time, sometimes not well, because then again, I had this rebound marriage because I wanted out. I didn't want, I didn't want stamina. I wanted it out.

What does that mean? It means I didn't want to go through it. I just wanted to escape this whole mess. But God wouldn't have that, wouldn't let me do that. I had to face it. I had to deal with it. And slowly, but surely, I did. But I kept making the same mistake.

mistake over and over again. It's interesting that, to me at least, that we always say the same thing. Why does this always happen to me? It's like, why am I, I always seem to be in, yeah, it's not them. After so long, it's, you have to realize, wait a minute, everything changes around me, The only thing that hasn't changed is me. And you have to face yourself, and you have to face the Lord. And people need to understand how much the Lord loves them, totally and completely.

There's nothing we can do to out-send his love. And that's a very strong security that we have. He died for us, even while we were sinners. One of my personal disappointments in life is I was doing the Jay Leno show. And right before I went on, Andy Williams called me. And he said, hey, I'm doing a show in Palm Springs tonight. Why don't you come down after Leno and come to the show, my guess. and I didn't because I had to get back home to New York,

and he died right after that. Oh, uh-uh. And the reason why is he played a crucial role in my life, and I didn't even understand it until I was 30. Wow. My mother, we would listen to the Andy Williams Christmas album, and every time the song Little Alter Boy would come on, she would stand behind me and she would hold me close to her and she would just hum it and I always remember

this is a really sweet kind of thing and um and she'd tell me how much she loved me and many times she would be all choked up and so I always associated that with my mom but I was a kid and I didn't listen to the words until I was in my 30s. And when I did, I realized she was asking me to be an intercessory for her because she wasn't, she didn't feel worthy to go to God. I think... That was a burden for her, wasn't it? Yeah.

Huge burden. And that's why she died. He couldn't get past her stuff. You know? And my mother used to say of suicides that God didn't call him home, but he welcomed him home. And I think that's a good way to look at it. You don't, until you've been through real depression,

people don't understand what that is. my guy who's like my brother we grew up together his father committed suicide and his pastor told his mom and he was a little kid he remembers it him as you would you know daddy's in hell oh dear yeah no no grace there no grace there and god is so much bigger than that so you talk in your book about being wounded

deeply wounded and you talk about how it's all a lie that those wounds are real but you don't share them with anybody because it's a lie you're right we all have an enemy

who tells us that confession is the last thing we want to do he holds us hostage to the fear of what others will think of us. But we break his bondage when we confess our sins to God, to ourselves, and those whom we have hurt. When we expose ourselves, the enemy can no longer dangle that in front of us, the fear of being exposed. Tell me about this realization. Well, I think, I remember particularly, and I think I tell the story in the book of a young woman, we were in a prayer group together, and we shared confidences. And I happened to break that confidence with a woman who wasn't in the prayer group. And I felt miserable. I knew

exactly what I'd done. And I felt miserable. And I knew I had to ask for forgiveness and confess it to her. And that was the last thing I wanted to do. I wanted to run and hide. I didn't want to see her. But I had to. And so she know you had. No, she didn't know. So I had to tell her what I had done. And then I had to ask her forgiveness. And she had a sweet spirit. And she said, of course. And she stayed in the prayer group and I did too and she continued to share confidences but I learned a lesson I learned a lesson that I was afraid that I would wonder what's you going to

think of me now is she going to take revenge all those kind of thoughts that run through your head none of that she was just very gracious and very sweet to me and stayed in the prayer group and shared her confidences again so she trusted me again so that's wonderful

only God can forgive us but so many speak of forgiveness of self we all seem to know what it means to struggle to define it practically I don't like the concept of hell no nobody does right and I don't understand how I just don't understand on some

some religions where they believe even if you even if you're a good person and you don't but you haven't gone to this church you go to hell. I just, I find that so hard to believe. I believe that, and you know,

I could get up and find all kinds of different answers. But what helps me is, I believe that hell is wanting to be right next to your dad or your mom. but you have so much crap that you haven't allowed to forgive yourself or be forgiven of that you cannot approach. It's not like God is saying strong arm. God is always saying, Jesus is always saying come, come.

Always come to me, forgive. But if we could forgive everybody else. But if we can't forgive ourselves, we can't come to him because we won't be able to look him in the eye. Well, and of course I believe hell is a real place. I believe the Bible teaches that. And I think it's a terrible place and will be separated from God for eternity. And I can't imagine anything worse. But we put ourselves through so much by masking, pretending.

So I think that we have to take it very seriously. but we can come to God at any time. And it's really all about Jesus. You know, what Jesus died for is my sin and your sin. And while he was being nailed to the cross, he said, Father, forgive them. That's what makes forgiveness sacred. It is a sacrament. I mean, what Jesus went through, you know, if we can't forgive someone, even ourselves,

spend a little time at the foot of the cross. Oh, my gosh. It's amazing. a truly amazing concept that he would, he didn't defend himself. He took it. He knew what was coming. He did. He set his face towards Jerusalem. Right. And he didn't want to do it. But forgiving them while they're driving nails into him. I don't ever see Jesus as an angry guy. Because of my relationship with him, I kind of can see him going, why is wrong? What? is wrong with you? That he did all of this and then

you could forgive others. But I, I, no, no, that was my job with everybody else and you did a good you know, you did a good thing by forgiving them. But my gift to you, you

won't accept. So we're saying that the cross is of no effect. Right. That we're not. We're everybody else but we're not. And that's wrong. Have you noticed how much your book it follows,

or I should say, your book is biblical and so was the, what alcoholics call the big book. Have you noticed how much you're in line with... Now I haven't. It's remarkable.

principles are true. Absolutely. True is true, truth is true. Right. And if healing, if we believe healing comes from God, he's going to package that as many times as he possibly can. I was really struck by this. When you talked about, a counselor asked me, unexpectedly, if I had subtly used my sexuality to attract men,

I said yes. And for the first time in my life, I admitted it to a real live person. As I left the office, I felt happy. Why? Because it was free. I didn't have to carry that burden anymore. It wasn't a secret anymore. And I was free.

Why do you have to do that to a person? I don't think you have to. For me, it's good. And the Bible says, confess your sins to one another that you may be healed. and that you may be whole. So that's good for me. That's my personality. But I think you're right.

And AA, I think the fifth step is you have to, you make a normal moral inventory, and then you have to tell it to somebody. And you have to pick wisely. Yes, you do. So you're not loading up, you know, an enemy or somebody who's going to give. A trusted person.

Somebody that you can say the worst to that will throw it away. And it means nothing to them. But you have to actually say the words out loud. To a person looking in them in the eye. Why do you think that changes us? Why is it not enough to confess, to confess to the people that you've hurt?

Why is that enough? Why do you think? I think it's good to confess out loud to someone. I mean, the Catholic Church has us hands down in that area, you know. And it works, you know, and I once was going to have a conference and we were going to have a confessional booth so that people could go in there and confess. Because confession is good for the soul.

We've heard that before. And I think it's a wonderful tool. It's not the end-all be-all, but it's a wonderful tool to get to the end where we want to be. We want to be clean before Jesus and before others. How do you choose that person? Well, you pray. ask the Lord to show you who it might be

or go to a counselor, go to a trusted friend, go to a pastor and say, who would you trust? This is what I want to do. Who would you suggest? Or just watch. Watch people in the church. Who do other people trust? And you'll eventually discern who that person might be.

And you can ask them, can I use you as a confessor? And they may be a little surprised. But don't just lay it on them without asking them and get preparing them. I want to, you talk about bitterness in the book. And I think this, I think I want to come back to bitterness.

Ten, I think is your fourth husband, is it not? Telling yourself the truth. Yes, yes. Do you feel comfortable telling this story? Yeah. Okay. So when was this? this was in 2000 I married in 2009

okay and it lasted until 2011 and he he was not nice we met he was not nice to me he was the one that actually introduced me to your radio show oh wow and you still like me

he was not nice to me and he was emotionally abusive abusive just about every way He never hit me. But I don't think people understand emotional abuse. It's worse than. The scars are just as deep.

Exactly. Nobody can see them. Right. And do you feel crazy? You know, just when you get beat, women or whoever is on the receiving end is convinced, well, I cause that. And emotional abuse is even worse because perhaps I'm just imagining that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Well, I kept giving pieces of myself away just to make him happy. What does that mean? Well, that just means I kept trying to please him. I kept doing everything I could to please him to make him happy. And it just didn't work. He wasn't in love with me, and he said that up front. And your kids knew. Oh, my kids were furious that I married him.

And what did that do to you? Well, it hurt me. And I should have just walked away when I realized that none of them liked him. But at that point I was too caught up. I was too, I needed that security. I needed those arms around me. I needed somebody to walk through life with me.

This is before you realize I've abandoned me. Yes, exactly. I did not know that. And that's what it was years of counseling. Nobody ever said that to me, which would think. Somebody would have said that. Especially with your history with your dad. Exactly.

But nobody had ever said that to me, or at least I'd never heard it. So this man was manipulative. He was a narcissist. He's a sociopath. And I just fell right into his trap. And he had known the family for a long time, so he knew all the buttons to push. And I just, I fell into it. And I realized I'd made a terrible mistake again.

But how could I admit that? How could I possibly admit that? Especially even to your children. Yes, exactly. you were right and he had so wait a wait wait wait wait so what did that say

to you that you would think I can't tell my children because why they'll say I'm the mother you know the mother's supposed to have it all together and I really didn't have it all together

how was I going to admit that to them and my fourth husband had a terrible accident and I was on my computer and my assistant was on the phone I could hear or say something and my ears picked up and she said let me get her on the phone so my assistant came in and said there's somebody on the phone for you and I picked up the phone and they asked me if my husband what medications my husband was on and I said well wait a minute who are you and she said there's been a terrible accident and your husband I need to know your husband's

medications. I said, I'll go get them. She said, no, bring them. And it was an hour and a half drive. So I drove. I had no idea what to expect. But when I pulled in, there was police officer was standing at the emergency door. And he said, we'll take you up to the trauma center. And I walked in, a team of doctors surrounded me. And they said, your husband is on life support. And it was a really strange feeling. They listed all the these traumas to his body. And I must not have heard him. I think it was shock. And I looked up at him and I said, are these life-threatening? Any one of them was life-threatening. So I said, I want to see him. And they said, maybe you shouldn't. And I said, no, I want to see him. So I walked down to his room

and I saw him and he didn't look recognizable. He was a mess. But Glenn, I had the strongest sense of God's presence, I knew that I was in his hands, that he was going to take care of me. And he did. It was months of recovery, months of recovery, and really abuse. He was ugly to me even then. So didn't you have an argument right before? Yes. He was leaving to have his car serviced in Richmond, and he had not worked for three years.

And I needed him to begin to make money for the family. I couldn't live off what if I was making, but he wouldn't do it. He just made no effort whatsoever. And so I said to him again, I said, Greg, you've got to get a job. And he cursed it with a crude word and walked out the door. And I went, oh, now what? And... What does that mean to you?

What was that feeling to you? Well, it was, again, I've done it again. I've got to somehow figure this out. And a pit in your stomach. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. But I knew I had to figure it out. And my assistant was coming within minutes. So I had to put the mask on and pretend everything was okay and went to work.

You hadn't confided with anyone? No, no. No one. And my children figured it out, but I hadn't told anybody. How did they figure it out? Well, they just didn't like him. And he tried to shut them away. He was a control freak, and he shut them away.

He didn't want them around. He made sure that I was away from them. And my children means so much to me. I mean, you know, Glenn, I just adore my children. But he had isolated me. And I knew I had to get out of that box. But how? And so when the call came and I heard there was an accident,

I thought, now what, God? how much more can I take? But I went, I drove down to Richmond and saw him and again, that overwhelming sense that God was with me, and he was going to show me what to do. And he did, he did. I quickly learned that he had put me in debt to the town of $100,000. Well, that was news to me. I was just floored. So he had been running up credit card bills or whatever?

So I had to sort that out too. I had to sell our home, which he was. unhappy about, but I said, I have no choice. I have to sell the house. How was he, didn't he lose, lost an arm? Lost an arm, had to go through dialysis, right? I mean, what were the, what was the extent of the injury? Well, he lost an arm. He had to go through dialysis. He was on a ventilator. For how long? Probably a couple weeks. And then he had a brain bleed. So he was a, he was an, he was an,

bad shape. He was in bad shape. But we got him into rehab and we got him patched up and got him home for Christmas and I was really pleased and we went to church together and I thought, well, maybe this will be a turning point. Maybe this will get his attention. It didn't. And I had to sell the house. I had to move on, pay off the debts and move on. And he became very angry and that's when he filed for her divorce. What was the turning point from there? How did you not turn, which takes me back a chapter in your book, how does this not turn into bitterness?

Glenn, I think bitterness is part of the human experience, and I think we do become bitter, but we can't stay there. The Bible says, don't let a root of bitterness dig down deep and spring up and defile other people. I knew I would experience bitterness, but I couldn't live there. I couldn't set up camp. I had to move on. And you do that with the scriptures.

You know, I believe firmly that the scripture is the truth of God and that we use that in our minds to renew our minds. So I agree with you. Now, tell me, because I think there's a parallel that runs in everybody's life. In fact, I've got to read this. I love the way you tell a story. You say, can you think of a person who nearly always finds it, you find particularly hard to forgive you?

If you're anything like me, the answer to that question is yes, yes, me. How can we forgive ourselves, especially when we're repeat offenders? Hang on just a second. There was, shoot, where was it? It was where you were talking about, no, it's this one. It's this one. One afternoon the phone rang. I picked it up and I heard her voice.

Instantly, I felt knots in my stomach. I pretended to be glad to hear from her while my familiar internal script scrolling through my mind. She is so patronizing and controlling. I've tried, but I can hardly bear to interact with her. If she tells me one more time, dot, dot, dot, dot. Here's the important line. Did anyone come to your mind when you read that? Yeah.

Yeah. And as I'm reading that, I think everybody does. And then in your case, extreme, here's a guy who's abusive. And you try to do everything you can. You then are with him and you nurse him back to health. And he's even worse. And, you know, he puts you in debt. He wasted all this time another notch to where you're like,

four is ridiculous. I even questioned whether I was a believer. I thought, how can I keep making these mistakes? I really doubted if I had known the Lord at all. But the Lord reassured me that I did know him and that I was safe in his arms. And the reason why you kept making these mistakes,

tell me about the discovery after this relationship. A, how did you not hold on to bitterness with him? Because that's what we're doing in all of our lives right now. We're constantly being told something. We're constantly fighting. We're constantly having to stand up and fight for simple things that we shouldn't have to fight for.

And we tried, we've all tried to be good. And I'm talking people on both sides will feel this way politically. and now we're so embittered and we're like, it's not my fault, it's your fault. How do you let that go? So much anger. We don't let it go on our own. You know, that's where the Holy Spirit has to come in.

And we have to ask the Holy Spirit to intervene and be our helper. And that God, Jesus says, he is our helper. He's our comforter. He's our advocate. We ask him to come in and help us. But it's a day-by-day thing. Forgiveness, letting go of bitterness is not an overnight thing. It may take a lifetime, but we have to be working through that process.

And it is a lifetime process. But I know for me, and I wrote about it in the book, I had always, when people talked about divorce, I always cringed. You know, at me. And one day I was in Sunday school class. And the Sunday school teacher was comparing the Corinth of Paul's Day to our culture today. And he asked the question, when did we begin this downward slide? And someone in the back yelled out when we accepted divorce.

Well, normally I would go, oh, no. But I didn't. And I heard him, but it didn't affect me. So afterwards, he said, oh, Ruth, please come. He said, I'm so sorry. I met to say, easy divorce. And I realized I was standing in Romans 8.1. there is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Can I tell you when it happened? Can I tell you where it happened? No, I just can tell you that it did happen. And that is a miracle. I don't remember the specific time like you, but I remember conversion. I remember being baptized, clearly, and I remember making that commitment.

That's not conversion. And then one day, three, four years, years later, I realized, wow, I only want to do good. I only want to do these things. I don't, I'm not that way anymore. And I can't tell you when it happened. No. But it does. When we open ourselves up for it, God will see that it happens. And that's how you got rid of your bitterness. And using the scriptures, renewing my mind, that I didn't want to be a bitter person. I've seen bitter people. And they're not pretty. I didn't want to be a bitter person. I didn't want to be a bitter person. I wanted to have the Holy Spirit fill my life and give me peace and contentment and courage.

And he has. Well, first, let's talk about when that person said to you, you were abandoned. Why, how did that connect? How did you not see that? How did that not connect with you beforehand? I have no idea. I have no idea. Because it's absolutely right there in front of your face.

That's why you were staying with these bad guys because... I wanted the security. Yeah. You know they'll leave and then who am I? And my father never knew this. He was not conversant by the time I discovered this. But of course, he's hearing our conversation now. So he knows.

And it would hurt his heart. But he said in his memoirs, you know, I'm sure that my absences had a profound effect on my children. And they did. I'm telling my story, not my sibling story, because they reacted differently than I did. We all do. But I just, I was grateful that I finally discovered my core issue. That was my core issue.

And we all have one. You know, I use Samson as an illustration in the book. His passion was his core issue. He couldn't let go of women. You know, he was just a mess. But God used him. Used him to Judge Israel for 20 years. You know, why?

He's listed in Hebrews 11. the chapter of faith. Why? Only by the grace of God. What's that mean? He did nothing to deserve it, not a thing. I mean, Samson was really sort of a yucky character. He did everything wrong, and he went out of his way to do things wrong. But God used him anyway. He did not deserve it. And that gives me hope. Yeah. Except you kind of want to see those people who have done wrong intentionally, you know, get their comeuppance. But God's in charge of that. Yeah. God's not me.

I know I have, in my worst times, I haven't had these for a while, but in my worst times when I feel like I've done everything and I'm just fighting the world. And I'm like, when are you coming? We're swinging it out here. when are you showing up for the fight? And I'll never forget. I've heard this several times in my prayers, but he has been very clear and almost stern with me.

We have a very different relationship, but almost stern. These are not enemies of yours. These are enemies of mine. And I will deal with them in my time. His time is not our time. His time is not our time. And his way of dealing with him may not be the way I would deal with it.

You know, we, we, we, we want revenge. Yeah. And we're so, we're self-hating egomaniac. In the quiet of night, we hate ourselves in our worst days. And, but the rest of it is, either we're hiding that wound or we actually believe I know best. It's the craziest combination. That's where the word of God has to play in.

We have to renew our mind with the scriptures because we will be self-hating, but we know that God loves us totally and completely and unconditionally. And that's what my father showed me. You know, I told the story at the funeral where my father accepted me home after the second marriage and just welcomed me home. No questions asked. And that showed me what God was like, because that's what God does for us. And I told that story at the funeral.

I loved your dad. I did too. I don't know if, I don't know if, I don't know because I met him towards the end. So I didn't, I didn't see the fire, you know, years of fire. He may not have gotten along with me at all. He would have enjoyed you. Yeah. And he had a special place in his heart for you, Glenn.

I truly believe that. I just loved him. I just loved him. And I've just never seen anyone so at peace. You know, he was. He was not troubled. No. And it was, he said to me one point, he said, because I was like, Billy, I'm trying.

He's not. I mean, it's, it's not loud enough sometimes. And I'm trying and I don't know what I'm doing and I'm bluffing half the time. And he looked at me and he said, I'm not afraid to die. And it was, I can, I mean, I can see his eyes when I say that. We were so close and he held my hand. And he said, I have screwed so much up. I have, I have tried. my whole time. I've tried, but I know I've failed all in areas I didn't even realize that I'll find out. He said, but I tried. I tried. And I know all my shortcomings will be covered. Absolutely. And he trusted that with every fiber of his being, that the blood of Jesus washes it all away.

Tell me what happened when you told your children about the fourth marriage. How did they react? The end of it? Yeah. Oh, they were pleased. There wasn't a question about it. And there was nothing that you had in your head. No.

Not one second of that. And I told the story in the book where I asked their forgiveness. I had to go to each child and say, will you forgive me? And they said, oh, mom, you don't need to ask us for your forgiveness. And I said, yes, I do. I said, I need to hear it from you. And so I looked each one of them in the eye, and I asked their forgiveness. And they said, of course, mother.

And that's freeing for a mother. Right. And why is that important that you heard that? It just was. I just needed to hear it from them because I had done so much damage. I had really made a mess of things. And they loved me through it. Do you think if you didn't have their voices recorded by your eyes and ears,

and you would have known it anyway that they'd have. forgave you. But do you think at all that would have been handing a tool to the adversary to play the whispers of night? Probably. I think when we ask for forgiveness, we take the tools away from him. And God gives us a whole new set of tools. And I'm very grateful to my children. There's nothing like living in the bright light, you know, because when times come and they're hard, and they They're hard in every family and every spouse. When you know I'm clean, there's no worry. That's right.

And it's... Nothing to hide from. It's where your dad was in the end. Very much so. Are you there? I think so. I am content. I'm at peace.

I truly am. And I'm grateful. I have family members who have been through. and have abandonment issues. And they're getting better. They really are. But it's, I... It's a journey.

It's a journey. And you think you're good. Even when you open everything up, you think you're good. And what's nice is you get to a point where you're like, oh, wait, there's something else here. and it just gets better and better. And the enemy will try to bring our emotions back and say we'll feel the revenge, we'll feel the bitterness,

we'll feel all the anger. That doesn't mean we haven't forgiven. It means that we need to let it go because emotions don't tell the truth. Only God's word tells us the truth. And his word will make us better and better. And that's both good emotions and bad emotions. emotions. Don't tell the truth. Right before your fourth marriage didn't tell the truth.

I think they were probably standing on tiptoe yelling, but I wasn't paying attention. Thank you. Thank you, Glenn. God bless. Thank you. The name of the book is Forgiving My Father, Forgiving Myself by my friend, Ruth Graham. Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.