The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos - Beat Your Isolation Loneliness

Episode Date: March 16, 2020

Many of us are being advised to stay at home and avoid social contact to help slow the spread of the coronavirus. Human interaction is a vital component of happiness, so Dr Laurie Santos asks Stanford's Professor Jamil Zaki to explain his research into how we can maintain meaningful links to our loved ones, friends and colleagues even if we can't be in the same room with them.If you have a question you want answered on a future coronavirus bonus episode then tweet @lauriesantos or @pushkinpods using #happinesslabpod Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pushkin. that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Gemini's because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too. Be more you this year and find them on Bumble. Welcome to the first of some special episodes of the Happiness Lab. It felt like I could only use half my lung capacity. The now global spread of coronavirus is affecting all of us. Keep a safe distance with other people. Stay at home. This disease has brought a whole host of medical, economic, and political problems. But it's also given us a ton of uncertainty and anxiety,

which are beginning to have an enormous negative impact on our well-being. But whenever I'm confused or fearful, I always remember that looking for answers in evidence-based science is the best thing to do. And that's why I'm hoping this podcast can help. For those of you that haven't listened before, I'm Dr. Laurie Santos. I'm a professor of psychology at Yale University, where I also live on campus with students. In the past two weeks, university life as I know it has been totally upended. We've halted research and classes and have told our students that they can't come back from spring break.

They just have to leave all their stuff where it is and complete their studies online. The whole process has been stressful, scary, and really sad. My staff and I spent the last week dealing with problem after problem, buying flights for students who couldn't afford it, and fighting through a web of emergency issues. And as of today, nearly every one of my 500 students is gone. Buildings that usually hum with the sounds of hundreds of young people will now be empty for who knows how long. It's eerie and really lonely. And so I did what

I'm guessing many of you are doing right now. I began panic scrolling, surfing my social media feeds, but it didn't provide the distraction I was craving. The latest news wound up making me even more anxious. I saw articles about panicked shoppers fighting over toilet paper. But then I saw a video that was a little more hopeful. Italians who were quarantined in their homes had opened their windows to join together in song. It was just after that singing video that I saw an article in the Washington Post written by one of my friends, Jamil Zaki. Jamil is a professor of psychology at Stanford University and author of the book, The War for Kindness, Building Empathy in a Fractured World. He's also

genuinely one of the funniest and most optimistic people I've ever met. Jamil's article was the first real breath of hope I'd seen in a while. He argued that our main weapon against the spread of coronavirus, social distancing, doesn't need to break the social bonds that are so vital to our happiness. With my entire community kicked off campus,

social distance is a challenge that I'm really struggling with right now. And it's probably a challenge you're facing or will soon be facing. So I decided to call Jamil to get his advice, and record our conversation so you could learn from him too. I started by asking about the videos I'd just seen. As an empathy researcher, Jamil has the scientific scoop

on how people actually react in a crisis. His work shows that supermarket fistfights over canned goods aren't as common as we think. Disasters and catastrophes are so interesting for this reason. Many of us have a stereotype that when the lights turn off and the rules are gone, that we'll tear each other apart. That's what movies like The Purge are about, that just under the surface, we have this kind of violent instinct towards each other.

It turns out that basically the exact opposite is true. When disasters happen, like earthquakes or terrorist attacks or giant blizzards, people pour out of their homes to help each other. It's what Rebecca Solnit calls a carnival of compassion. So you basically see people helping strangers in every way they can. They line up for hours to donate blood. They overrun charities and then start their own. to donate blood. They overrun charities and then start their own. They help people and ignore boundaries of race and class and all other social divisions that sometimes would separate them

because almost as though a disaster in putting us all at risk makes us realize how much we have in common. But what's really scary about the coronavirus situation is that that's not happening, right? This is the paradox of and really adds to the tragedy of an outbreak like coronavirus is that we have these deep instincts that when things are going really poorly, when we're under stress, we have these deep instincts to seek out others for their help and to help them to use one of our greatest strengths, which is our connection to each other in one of the toughest moments. But the thing about coronavirus and other epidemics is that they force us for the interest of public health to go exactly in the opposite direction, apart when we want to be together, when we most need to be together. That's what makes this so tragic at even another level. And I think you've probably seen it at your university. I know we're now implementing social distancing, right? So my

staff is just standing behind, you know, this big rope that says really stay super far away. And what's amazing is people just normally have a hard time with this. Like they want to walk up to each other and start talking. But I think in this moment, people really want like hugs and to be close to each other. And it seems pretty crazy. It's so weird to see people who are obviously struggling. And you do, you have that impulse to reach out to them, to make contact, to lay hands on, right, to comfort each other. And we're being stripped of that possibility. It really does double down, I think, on the damage of this epidemic because it's

already scary. It's already killing people and scaring so many other people. But it also has the potential to have this long-term psychological mental health fallout from this increase in isolation. I mean, we know that loneliness is basically psychologically poisonous, right? It produces depression and anxiety. It worsens our response to stress. It increases inflammation, worsens our cardiovascular health. I mean, it damages us in ways that are really quite long lasting. And so to add a loneliness epidemic to the viral epidemic we're already living through is really, you know, it's dangerous. It's tragic. Yeah. I mean, loneliness is bad, but the flip side is that social connection can heal us in these incredible ways. So talk about some of the research that's

shown how powerful social connection can be, even in times of like physical and emotional trauma. I would say especially in those times, right? So people, when they're going through stress, if they feel as though there are loved ones around them, people who care for them, they are able to bounce back more quickly from those stressors. They experience them as less psychologically damaging. They recover from trauma more easily. There's even evidence from the brain that when people go through pain, for instance, like getting zapped with a painful electric shock, that they experience those shocks as less painful if they're holding the hand of somebody who cares for them. So at a physical and psychological level, that connection really buffers us against suffering and against anxiety and against many of the experiences that we're having right now. But an additional thing that's really terrible about this virus is that it makes us avoid our fellow man in a different way, right? We have to have this physical distance.

But in some sense, the scariest thing for me is that other people become a threat. It's like we're living in a slow motion zombie movie, right? The people who you love, the people who you typically would want to be around, you have to kind of look at them and say, are they one of the infected, right? And it's not a great feeling. I mean, I went to the grocery store and was panic shopping for toilet paper like everyone else, and somebody sneezed in a crowded aisle. And it was like they were going to be gang tackled, right? I mean, it's frightening because there are vulnerable people in all of our lives and we want to protect them. But in order to protect them, basically the threat becomes other people. So as you say, it's not just that we're between us. There's been xenophobia and racism attached to some of the, you know, some of the ways that people are talking about this virus, which often happens when people are scared. When they feel as though they're anxious,

they often brighten the lines between us and them, which is, you know, yet another way that this outbreak can be psychologically damaging. The other thing that's really awful about this virus is that the people that are most physically susceptible to coronavirus also seem to be the people that are most mentally susceptible to things like loneliness. That's right. Yeah. And especially older adults, you know, suffer from an increase in loneliness and also suffer more from the consequences of loneliness, including the sort of added cardiovascular and immune risks. So for instance, a giant meta-analysis recently

demonstrated that sort of chronic severe loneliness among older adults was significantly increasing mortality among older adults, right? So we've got this really, you know, possibility that feeling deeply isolated can actually shorten one's life, which again is really difficult given that, you know, older adults in our culture are getting this kind of double whammy, you know, this sort of both from the disease burden and from the burden of isolation. So that's the problem so many of us are facing, social isolation and the loneliness that it brings. As I've said in previous editions of the Happiness Lab, loneliness is as bad for our physical health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, which means that as we isolate

ourselves to fight this awful virus, we might be harming ourselves in a different way. And that's why I was so hopeful after reading Jamil's article. He's come up with some practical solutions, ones that he's implementing with his own friends and family, for how we can physically isolate in a way that doesn't feel so socially isolated. And I want to turn to those next.

Ugh, we're so done with New Year, New You. This year, it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Gemini's because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention

because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too. Be more you this year and find them on Bumble. Someone else will too. Be more you this year and find them on Bumble. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to Jamil so badly and to share this conversation with you is that he's surprisingly hopeful that we can continue our meaningful interactions in a time of social distancing.

I totally get how lonely it feels to be isolated, but the great news is that Jamil's work offers us some hope. I do think that this is going to be a hard time for many people, and it's going to be a lonely time for many people. But one thing that I'm trying to remember myself and tell as many people as possible is that, you know, actually, we're all going through something pretty similar. You know, you might be holed up in your apartment working from home, feeling confused and scared and lonely, but guess what? So are the other people who are normally at your office.

So is your third grade best friend, you know, so is your cousin, right? I mean, we have more in common with more people than we usually do. This is in a way a vast shared experience. And if we could acknowledge it that way and try to truly experience it together, I think that we'd be able to cultivate more social connection than we realize, right? When you talk with somebody, even if both of you feel anxious, a lot of things happen. One, you realize that your experience is shared. You're not alone in feeling what you're feeling. In fact, maybe that feeling brings you together. You express care for one another and you feel supported and you feel able to support

somebody else. Oftentimes, comforting someone else is one of the best ways to be comforted yourself because in doing so, you locate a strength and calm that you didn't realize you had for the benefit of somebody else. I think we all share that instinct. But then when we try to connect, we do it in a way that provokes more anxiety. Like for me, I'm panic scrolling, which makes me feel connected to the other people on Facebook, sort of. But it also really increases our anxiety. Yeah, I think you're totally right. I've panic scrolled a fair amount myself recently.

Panic scrolling, first of all, is an overload of really anxiety-provoking information all at once. It's like a tsunami of just distressing facts and figures. But I do think that there are ways that we can more intentionally engage in ways that build social connection rather than just making us feel even more alone and worked up. And I think ironically, right, a lot

of us have spent most of the 21st century blaming technology for like tearing apart our social fabric. And right now it might be our best shot for keeping that social fabric together, right? So I write a lot in my book about how technology can build empathy, and a lot of it really depends on the way that we use it. So around moments like this, around the coronavirus and social distancing, one thing that I think we could really try to pay attention to is how can we use technology to have the types of interactions that we would have in person, right? So we don't normally just scroll through each other's minds, right? We interact live and try to share experiences together, right? So I think that FaceTime, Zoom in these moments are terrific, right? But not just

using those technologies to like check in and say, ask people how they're doing. We should do that, but also just to hang around together, right? I mean, when we have a research meeting in person, right, we don't just talk about work and then leave. We dawdle, you know, we kibitz, we goof off together. And those in-between moments are what matter most sometimes to our sense of connection to each other. So my thing has been, to our sense of connection to each other. So my thing has been, let's try to get online and do nothing together. Watch a TV show with your cousin or go on FaceTime with somebody and make the same meal together and then drink some wine together, right? I mean, my lab, you know, we have a coffee room where we all used to just kind of hang out. And so we've created a

Zoom channel that's just called The Coffee Room, right? It's just for people to take a break together, right? So I think that if we can use technology to recreate at least some of the informality and sense of togetherness we have in the analog world, that would be one really helpful strategy. What's so funny about this idea to do more of our social events via Zoom and things like that is that our workplaces have figured it out, right? We instantly translate to doing like, you know, distance learning or kind of distance like meetings. But we forget that we can do our social events at distance, too. I know. And it doesn't feel as natural, right?

I mean, I think that we're used to using technology to work, not to live. And I think a lot of us have the stereotype that technology is kind of anti-social. And I think that this moment is going to require us to really try to get over that perception and challenge it and push on it and see how much we can just be there with each other online. I mean, this even goes for kids, right? I mean, so schools are closing and a lot of us are going to be hanging out with our kids while they're isolated too. And that's, I mean, so schools are closing and a lot of us are going to be hanging out with our kids while they're isolated, too. And that's I mean, if it's hard for us, imagine how hard it is for them. Right. Kids depend on their social interactions to build their sense of self.

So, I mean, one thing that we're doing is with some of our kids, really good friends, we're buying the same color. Our kids are very young, so we're buying the same coloring books, we're buying the same games, and we're going to try to see whether we can do FaceTime playdates where, again, it's a co-activity. It's not just talking because, you know, a two-year-old and another two-year-old aren't necessarily going to make scintillating conversation for hours, but maybe they can compare what colors they choose to draw the unicorn that they're working on. Yeah, but the adults don't have to make scintillating conversation either, right? I mean, you forget that you can just plop down and like watch RuPaul's Drag Race with someone else, but just over FaceTime. Exactly, yeah.

And I think we should lower our expectations for, maybe that's another issue with online interaction is we don't just over-professionalize it, we over-pressure it. We feel as though we should only be interacting so long as there's something to say, but that's not what we do in real life. So I just want us to bring the casualness and the informality of life offline into our technological space.

I think that's a really great shot we have for retaining connection right now. So what do we know scientifically about whether or not this technology works? Is there research showing that you can get this kind of empathic connection from people online just as much as in real life? Yeah, I mean, I think that, again, we have stereotypes about online connections, and we feel as though they're necessarily shallow, or it's just a bunch of people posting sepia-tone selfies or pictures of their last meal or whatever. But there's a long tradition of people using the internet to find real deep connections, maybe connections they can't find offline. So one example of this that I write about in my book is rare illness communities. So it turns out that rare illnesses are any illness that affects

less than one in 1,000 people. But there are hundreds of rare illnesses, which means paradoxically some big proportion of our community has an illness where their friends and neighbors don't know much about that illness and don't share their experiences. Some of those folks also have to self-quarantine for reasons that have to do with those illnesses, so they can be extremely isolated. But many of those folks take to online communities like Facebook groups or standalone websites like rareconnect.org. And there's a lot of evidence that on those communities, people don't just share information about the latest treatments or whatever. They share their stories, and it's an opportunity for them to feel seen. And you can think of them as basically oases of empathy in a desert of connection for a lot of people. And it's not just people with illnesses.

There are a lot of us who have parts of our identity that we don't feel comfortable sharing with the people in our lives. And ironically, the anonymity of being online actually makes some people feel free to express vulnerabilities that they don't feel like they can talk about in other settings. So there is a tradition of real, true, and deep empathy on the internet. It's one that we will all have to tap into more now. You've seen examples of this even at your university, where folks are using technology to bring students together. That's right. Yeah. So I teach a little seminar for Stanford freshmen called Becoming Kinder, and it's all about designing experiences and interventions to help people tap into their really deep-seated desire to help with and

connect with one another. And so, of course, when coronavirus hit and we were all meeting by Zoom, the first thing we were talking about is how do we recover this? And they spontaneously said, well, you know what? We eat together all the time. You know, the dining halls are sort of the arteries of social life on a college campus. Why do we need to be eating alone just because we're in different parts of the country? So they've now created, it's awesome. I mean, they've created dining halls that are virtual and they've created dorm lounges that are virtual as well. So they actually do different types of hanging out in different places.

I mean, this coronavirus thing is incredibly scary, both in terms of our physical health, but also in terms of our mental health. Are you hopeful that we can really use these technologies to bring ourselves together in this scary time? I mean, look, this is a scary time. It will continue to be scary and it will be sad. And I think that I'm hopeful that we can work together. I'm always hopeful that we can work together. That's what our species is best at. And I think that we can work together at this as well. I think it will be important to do a couple of things. One, to bring the most vulnerable people into these conversations, right? So my kids are digital natives. My college students are digital natives. My parents are not. And older people are not just the most susceptible to really dangerous symptoms from coronavirus. They're the most susceptible to isolation. So I think it's going to be important for us to be inclusive in the way that we generate whatever digital or other types of interactions we can manage. There's one more

point that I want to make, which is that, you know, as you said earlier, one of the tough things about an epidemic is that we have this desire to be kind, to help others when we need to, when we're going through something together. That allows us to assert community, to gain control in a time that we otherwise feel helpless. And one of the things that is hard about this moment is that it's hard to find ways to help other people. But I want us to remember something. Social distancing for many of us is something that we're doing to be kind to others. Very young, healthy people don't have that high a risk of really developing severe symptoms from coronavirus. So their decision to engage in social distancing is really a way to protect vulnerable individuals in our community.

So I think that one thing we can do is just remember that even our choice to be alone is something that we're doing together. And it's something that we're doing for each other. to be alone is something that we're doing together, and it's something that we're doing for each other. I hope this conversation has given you some practical tips for fighting loneliness and feeling more connected in this tough time. Talking to Jamil over a video call certainly made a rough day brighter for me, and so I'm super grateful that he took the time to connect. We'll return for another special episode of The Happiness Lab really soon, because I want to bring you even more science-backed tips for getting through this worrying time. I plan to talk with leading experts as often as I can over the coming weeks and to share all their important evidence-backed advice with you.

But I also want to be sure we're tackling all the big challenges you're facing during this pandemic. So if there's a question or topic you think the Happiness Lab needs to address in the coming weeks, let me know. Tweet us at at Lori Santos or at Pushkin Pods. And please include the hashtag Happiness Lab Pod. Until then, stay safe. The Happiness Lab will be back soon. The Happiness Lab is made by me, Dr. Laurie Santos. It's produced and co-written by Ryan Dilley.

Our original music is by Zachary Silver. We're a Pushkin podcast, so special thanks go to Jacob Weisberg, Mia LaBelle, Heather Fane, Carly Migliori, Julia Barton, and the rest of the team. Ugh, we're so done with New Year, New You. This year, it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Gemini's because you know you always like them.

More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too. Be more you this year and find them on Bumble.