The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos - Happiness Lessons of The Ancients: Lao Tzu

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

The challenges of life often cause us to work frantically to overcome our difficulties - but the Chinese thinker Lao Tzu recommended that instead we should emulate the slow, steady, yet powerful flow of a river.Solala Towler has studied and taught the principles of Daoism for more than 30 years - and explains how we can implement them into our daily lives. Things like retaining our childlike wonder, being content to go with the flow, and appreciating moderation in all things so that we don't burn ourselves out.You can read more about Solala's work at https://abodetao.com/ Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pushkin. What was Tom famous for? Well, he's made a name for himself by trying not to do, well, much of anything. I think I was born fairly idle. I always had a strong will towards idling. I'm a huge fan of Tom's books on being idle. They're clever and funny. But I came to Tom's work because idling, this philosophy that we should devote time to not being productive, is something I find super hard to do. When I sat down with Tom for an episode called For Whom the Alarm Clock Tolls, I was struck by the fact that his fear of overwork informs the entire way he sees the world.

Take Tom's view on the novelist George Orwell. Many of us think of Orwell for his warnings about political repression. But Tom focuses on a different tyranny. In Animal Farm, we have the example of the horse, Boxer, who, when faced with a problem, says, work harder, work harder, until he works himself into an early grade. He's taken off to the glue factory.

Now that, to me, that's a warning. Since talking to Tom last season, I've thought more and more about the importance of idling. When life gets stressful, my temptation is always to be like Boxer and just do more. I mean, these days everyone talks about being fully committed or redoubling your efforts or giving 110%. It can feel like heresy to say, you know what, I might be happier doing a bit less. But as I was gathering ideas for this series on the ancients, I realized that Tom's plea for more idling fits well with the teachings of an important ancient Chinese philosopher, Lao Tzu.

Lao Tzu argued that we should look to nature for our happiness inspiration. While we often talk about putting in 110%, Lao Tzu thought that the sweet spot was much less. He thought we should live life at about 80%. So welcome to Happiness Lessons of the Ancients, with me, Dr. Laurie Santos. When you think about the wisdom of the ancients, Lao Tzu is exactly the sort of philosopher that comes to mind. His Taoist ideas are the very antithesis of our hectic 24-7 modern culture. Instead of the ping of calendar alerts

and smartphone notifications, and the hurry and rush and demands and deadlines, Taoism is about calm and quiet and steadiness, like the waters of a broad river running slowly through a wooded valley. Part of why I think of Taoism as such a calming influence is that I first learned about it on the Insight Timer meditation app when I was listening to Solala Towler's course called Taoist Principles for a Prosperous Life.

Tao that can be spoken is not the true and eternal Tao. Names that can be named are not the true and eternal names. Just hearing Salala makes me relax and unclench from the stresses of my life. Non-being is the origin of heaven and earth. Being is the mother of the 10,000 beings, Wan Wu. So I thought I'd reach out and ask him to be our final guest on this season of Happiness Lessons of the Ancients, and to guide us all through Lao Tzu's work and the story of Taoism. It's at least 5,000 years old, and it was developed slowly over time.

And the most important and famous book from Taoism is the Tao Te Ching, which was written by a character named Lao Tzu. And today, it is the second most widely translated book in the world after the Bible. So basically, it's been a bestseller for 2,500 years. Lao Tzu talks a lot about the difference between head knowledge or intellectual knowledge and belly knowledge, gut knowledge, and that he really emphasizes gut knowledge over head knowledge or intellectual knowledge and belly knowledge, gut knowledge, and that he really emphasizes gut knowledge over head knowledge. And so Taoism actually contributed an enormous amount to what we think of today as Chinese culture. Things like meditation, feng shui, qigong, taiji, Taoist yoga called Dao yin, painting, calligraphy, music, all these kinds of things,

Chinese medicine, have their roots in Taoism. And for many, many years, Taoism was more what we call a philosophy, what today is called Tao Jia. And then about 600 years after Lao Tzu's book, a Taoist religion was formed called Tao Zhou. And today in China, there are many temples and priests and nuns and liturgy. But I think for most people in the West who are interested in Taoism are more interested in what we call the Daozhou or the philosophical Taoism, which incorporates these practices like Qigong and meditation and really basically advice on how to live a prosperous and happy life. And so one of the interesting things about the Dao Te Ching is that Lao Tzu, the author, isn't really a particular person, right? Historians argue about this. Scholars argue about this all the time.

Traditionally in China, it is believed that one guy, and Lao Tzu, by the way, is not his actual name. Lao Tzu means the old master. And the character Tzu for master also means child. So sometimes you'll see his name translated as the old child or the old boy. But the story is that he was a high official in the court in the Zhou dynasty and saw that China was entering what historians call the Warring States period, and society was basically falling apart. He decided to drop out, and he was on his way out to the wilderness of western China when the last gatekeeper before the wilderness implored him to please write down some of his teachings. And the story is that he didn't want to do that. Once you take the story or the teaching and imprison it on the page, then it doesn't get to change. So Lao Tzu finally came around to writing this very short

book, but the very first line of the book says the Tao that can be written about or spoken about or put in a little box is not the real Tao. So I think it's fascinating that the very first line of the book is telling us that what you're going to read in this book is not the real Tao. So I think it's fascinating that the very first line in the book is telling us that what you're going to read in this book is not the real Tao, but hopefully my words will point towards something that you can use in your life. I think one of the cool things about the Tao is that it's about kind of how we behave in life. But in some ways, the Tao is interesting because mostly it focused on how we shouldn't be behaving or what we should not be doing, right? Yeah, it's, you know, one of the main principles of Taoism is called u-wei,

which translated directly into English means not doing. But what it means is not overdoing, not overextending, not trying to force things to happen, and really just being sensitive enough to the currents of life that you can position yourself so things can naturally be created and can naturally flow. And so this seems to be part of a broader concept because the idea of ue, as I understand it, is it's really kind of tied to going along with nature to some important sense, right? Yes, yes. Traditionally, Taoists felt like nature is the best teacher. It wasn't until much later centuries that more emphasis was put on text, but originally it was about living in nature and observing nature and finding a way for us to flow in what we call the watercourse way, so that instead of trying to push against the current all the time and force things to happen

and be so upset and sad and depressed when things don't seem to be happening the current all the time and force things to happen and be so upset and sad and depressed when things don't seem to be happening the way we wish they were, we can be okay with how things really are working and we can find our way to enter that current of Tao. So that what we create, what we experience in our life is something that is very healing and very natural. The term in Taoism for an enlightened person or a self-realized person is jenren, which means authentic person. So people who are authentically themselves, who know who they are authentically and then can express themselves authentically, that's considered a very high-level person. In Taoism, we don't look to some sort of personalized deity to free ourselves. We need to find a way to free ourselves

by ourselves. And one feature of that freedom seems to be like not going to the extreme, like not pushing yourself past your natural boundaries or not pushing yourself to the point of burnout. But what's interesting is I feel like this is really countercultural right now. It feels like everyone in modern culture is kind of pushing themselves past the breaking point. But that was almost explicitly prohibited, right? Yes. In Taoism, we have this tradition of 80%. Never eat until you're more than 80% full. Don't push yourself or work, especially physically or even on the computer, really, beyond 80% of your capacity. Because the more you stuff yourself with food that you can't digest, the more hours you spend on the computer or even in a physical labor job, the easier you burn out. And Taoism in Chinese culture in general really respects the long life. And these practices that

we do, these qigong and meditation practices are called long life practices. And that seems to fit with one of the passages you talked about a lot in your Insight Timer course. I think the passage was something like, it's better to leave a vessel unfilled than to attempt to carry it when it's full. Kind of walk me through this analogy because I think it seems to get at this idea of not going overboard. Well, on one side, it's overfilling a vessel. Things end up just spilling everywhere. So trying to overfill your life by putting too many activities, extending yourself in too many different directions, then you end up actually

losing energy. Where if you keep to a little more sort of middle way, you can get things done, but you don't burn out. And people think, well, if I just keep going longer and longer and longer and get this project better and better and better, and then when they're finally done, often they just collapse or they may even collapse before the project is even done. So we want to keep a balance. This is the whole yin-yang thing, you know, the balance of yang energy, which is very expansive, fiery, outward projecting energy, and yin energy, which is very inward, restful kind of energy that we find a way to balance those two. much. And this can vary from person to person because some people are more fiery and can go out in the world and get a lot done, or other people are more reflective and may even compare themselves with the other person and say, look how much they're doing and I'm not getting anything

done. There must be something wrong with me. Taoism really respects that everyone has their own way of being and doing in the world. And also, sometimes we need to move in a young direction to get projects done. And then other times we need to be more reflective. And this can happen over years, days, or even in one day. Yeah, I think another one of the passages that speaks to this is those who stand on tiptoe don't stand firm, and those who rush ahead don't go far. Yeah, the metaphor is you're standing on tiptoe so that you can seem taller and bigger and better than other people, but you can easily lose your balance that way. And someone who's rushing forward to try to get ahead of everyone,

they also lose energy. The Taoists talk about leading from behind. The teacher, the high-level teacher in Tao Te Ching is described as the person who teaches without words. And the one other phrase that I love is the sage returns people to their childlike hearts. And so talk a little bit about this childlike idea, because I think that's so important, especially since Laozi in some ways means like a master child in some sense, right? Yeah, old child. Lao means old and ze means master or child. So sometimes his name is translated as the old boy or the old child. And of course, he talks just like in the Bible when they talk about becoming as a child to enter the kingdom,

Lao Tzu talks and Zhuangzi, who's the next most important teacher after Lao Tzu, about having those childlike qualities of joy, of flexibility, of excitement, excitement about learning new things, experiencing new things. He says when the plant is young, it is very flexible and can bend, but as the plant gets old, it gets dry and brittle and breaks easily. And as we age, it's very important to keep that childlike feeling, that flexibility of a new plant, so that as we get older in our bodies, in our hearts, and especially in our minds, we don't start shutting down and becoming brittle and dried up, so that we keep that excitement of adventure in our life, throughout our life.

And this is so perfect because it really connects with what the modern science is saying about how to stay happier. Right now in the happiness science work, there's a lot of emphasis on what's called time affluence, right? Just this idea that we feel like bountiful in time, like really wealthy in time. And it seems like that's exactly what the Tao

is really suggesting, that by going with nature, by not trying to squeeze too much in, you get back some free time, and that that in and of itself, by not trying to squeeze too much in, you get back some free time and that that in and of itself might be the key to happiness. Yes. Another big concept in Tao Te Ching is about an empty vessel. The cup or bowl is useful because of its emptiness. If it was just a solid block of wood or clay, it wouldn't be useful. Just like the openings or windows and doorways are so useful. And it's really in their emptiness that makes them useful and special. But it's so hard to stop sometimes that you think, I'll just do a little more. And suddenly you collapse and have

to take a whole week off. Or if you'd gone slower, you might've been able to work through the whole week. And this childlike heart, I think, is a real key to happiness and Taoism. You know, that idea that the more we keep ourselves open to learning new things, to experiencing new things without judgment or criticism, but just seeing where is this going to go? Where is this going to take me? You know, a lot of us have the experience in our life, and you know, this is almost a cliche, but people get sick, they get in a terrible car accident, they get cancer, they get very close to death's door, and when they come through that, they suddenly have a whole new lease on life, and they suddenly are enjoying and feeling exuberant about things that they never perhaps

even paid attention to before. And the idea is that we don't have to go to death's door. We don't have to get cancer or have a terrible accident or have some really traumatic thing happen to us. We can decide right now that we're going to follow that path, the path of least resistance, of the flow, the water course way, and we're going to keep that innocent air about us, the innocent childlike nature, because we all have it, but it's suppressed as we grow older and older, right? That's actually a wonderful transition because I think one of the things we want to discuss next

is how we can get back that flow to life, how we can follow the watercourse way. And we'll do that when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment. Lots of metaphors get thrown around to tell us how to act when life inevitably gets tough. We might get told to be aggressive like a wild animal and sink our teeth in. Or we might be told to take on the resilient qualities of steel and to become hard as nails. Taoism uses a very different metaphor, one that's a lot gentler. Taoism tells you to be more like water. The waterway path or the water course way is how to find yourself in the flow of what the flow naturally is. And that flow can change from time

to time, from day to day, from moment to moment even. And so how do we know what the flow is and where can we find our place in that flow? And over the centuries, the Taoists have created these practices like qigong, different kinds of meditation, and we call them self-cultivation practices. Because it's like we're planting a garden and we're planting these seeds of what we want to accomplish, of who we want to be and how we want to express ourselves in the world. And then we tenderly tend these sprouts as they grow up into beautiful plants, perhaps even trees, and then we get to enjoy the fruits of our labor. And it's self-cultivation practice. It's not that someone is going to tell you what to do, so we have to find what works for us and not compare ourselves to others. And that seems to really get at this idea of the water course way, right? Because water is constantly moving, right? Like it's never kind of stopped and it's achieved its goal. It's kind of constantly moving and it's kind of constantly moving into places that some people

might reject, right? Exactly. And not only that, but sometimes say the water is coming downstream and we're sort of floating merrily along with the water of our life. And suddenly we hit a beaver dam or a log or something, something that stops the water. Now, just like we're that person or we're that water, we can get very upset and we could try to bash our way through the obstruction. But that way we lose a lot of energy and we don't get anything done. We may even harm ourselves. And the idea is when we feel we're in an obstruction, the best thing to do is be quiet and wait, because eventually that water is going to rise and go over the

obstruction. And so the less energy we spend trying to bash our way through it, and the more we are quiet and just let the energy grow of itself. There's a term in Taoism called ziren, which means something that occurs spontaneously, sometimes translated as of itself so. And not only will I be happier doing that, but I will, if not be more successful, at least being good with what is instead of what we wish was. And that seems like part of the thing that we're using this water courseway metaphor to explain, right? This is this idea that water just kind of deals with whatever circumstances it finds itself in, right? Yes. If it's, you know, put it in a round container, it becomes round and the square container becomes square. It just does so naturally and it doesn't lose anything of its real

nature. You can freeze it, you can boil it, you know, you can put salt in it. The water always retains its own nature, just like when we find ourselves in a square container or a situation that we're not that comfortable in, we can find a way to flow with that. We can find a way to take whatever shape we need to in that moment and still remain authentically ourselves, just like water remains itself no matter what condition it's in. And of course, we know that water very patiently and slowly over time can carve through mountains and create the Grand Canyon. So Lao Tzu says there's nothing softer than water, but through perseverance, through patience, It can cut its way through rocks. And it's a way that we can deal with the obstructions in our life by remaining authentically ourself. And over time,

and sometimes it takes more time than we wish it would, we can actually not only get through or over or around that obstruction, but become even stronger for it. And I love this part of the metaphor in particular, because I think, you know, again, with sort of modernized, sometimes when you think of some substance like water that's very yielding, that's very flexible, you can assume it's very weak, right? Like you can assume it's not very powerful. And we want to be powerful in our lives. You know, we want to carve good things for ourselves. But I think the Taoist way suggests that sometimes the way you carve those good things is not through fighting against the tide. It's through kind of going with the flow. And persistence. Sometimes you can reach a state of what the Buddhists call enlightenment or what the Taoists call entering Tao. It can happen just in a moment, in a flash. And people may think, wow, how did that happen so quickly? But it's because of all those years or perhaps even lifetimes of persistence that you have been building your energy, your understanding over this time that finally you reach that precipice,

like the water going over a giant waterfall. It's just like, you know, the Beatles were so famous, right? One day they were just the Beatles and famous and accomplished and rich. And they didn't talk about all the years they played in these horrible dives in Hamburg and Germany and all the little funky gigs they did for many, many years all over Liverpool, all over England. And so sometimes we see someone become famous and we go, wow, where do they come from? But it's really because we are consistent and patient. You know, what my teacher watching me says that the high is built on the low and that when we're in that spot in our life where nothing seems to be getting accomplished,

where we feel like we're just not getting anywhere and we're not getting ahead, certainly, and we might get frustrated with that naturally of course but to understand that suddenly you see things you understand things in a different way and why not start right now where you are right now right here in this very moment we have all the power we need to free ourselves from the chains of bondage that culture and various religions and society and teachers and political parties have put us in and realize that we are already enlightened beings. We are Buddhas. We are the people who are authentically ourselves. And why don't we start experimenting with how to embrace that and show that to the world?

And so I wanted to touch on how following the Wu Wei has worked in your own life. You know, you're a practicing Taoist, right? I mean, how has this philosophy changed how you live and how happy you are? Very good question. I use that principle in my life. You know, when I'm writing books, when I'm recording music, when I'm teaching right now, you know, the whole world has changed. And I used to travel around the country teaching Qigong.

I used to take tours of groups of people to China and go way up in the mountains and work with the Taoists and the holy people in the mountains, the hermits who live in caves and things like that. And now I'm doing it all through Zoom. So in a way, it calls upon my ability to be flexible and to not get frustrated. I can't actually go to the mountains of China, but what I can do is remember what I learned in the mountains of China, what I experienced there, and bring that into my life and not feel like I'm losing anything. I can apply this principle of not overextending, not standing on tiptoe, not forcing things to happen. You know, I went through my own cancer journey last year, and anyone who's been through that knows it's a very life-changing

experience. But even in the midst of it, before surgery and all that, I had a feeling in myself that who I really was was going to be okay. No matter what happened to my body, I was going to be okay. So I think that's a little bit of what we're talking about. And of course, in relationship, that's a big issue too. Is it more important to you to be right or to have harmony in your relationship, in your life? important to you to be right or to have harmony in your relationship, in your life, not trying to force your opinions, your judgments on someone else, being open to listening to them,

using another very important Taoist principle of going slowly, especially if you're in a difficult conversation, speak slowly and listen slowly so that you're not sitting there listening to the other person, but half of you is just thinking about what you're going to say as soon as they stop talking. They all work together. That's the thing. Ooway, watercourseway, flexibility, going slowly. They all work together. It's like a band, right?

We had John, Paul, Ringo, and George, and they all worked together. And they had a special kind of magical synergy that is still moving people 50 years later. So why don't we do that in our life? Why don't we become the directors of our own life movies and the writers of our own scripts of our life? And sometimes in the movie, things aren't going well for the hero. And you were wondering, how's he going to get out of it this time? Although most of the time, you know, the hero is going to get out of it somehow, but you don't know how. So when something really tragic or difficult happens in your life, instead of going, oh

my God, what's going to happen to me now? You can instead, with that sort of childlike thing, hmm, I wonder how I'm going to get out of it this time. And I wonder what this is going to lead to. this time. And I wonder what this is going to lead to because so many really challenging things in our life lead to really wonderful things. So instead of just being depressed and scared and frustrated, more like, hmm, I'm really interested to see where this is going to lead me and what good is going to come out of this. I can't wait to see it. And this fits with so many of the things that we've talked about on this podcast,

sort of first reframing hard tasks as this kind of game, as this sort of challenge in this sort of childlike way. But it also fits with something that we see in the research, which is this phenomenon of post-traumatic growth, this idea that, you know, hard times don't necessarily always cause post-traumatic stress. Sometimes they can cause a lot of growth, right? They can make us recognize what's meaningful in life. They can make us stronger. We don't sweat the small stuff. And it seems like the Taoists were kind of onto this notion that the tough times are really the good builder times. We should be excited when we experience them. Yes, exactly. When you're working out, when you are trying to build muscles, what you're

essentially doing often is stressing those muscles and sometimes even tearing them a little bit so that when they grow back together, they grow back together stronger. So just like the experiences in our life are frustrating or challenging, we can understand that this is going to help me become stronger if we have an open attitude about it. If we just decide the world is against us, my body's against me, all my relationships are against me, then you don't have that post-trauma growth. You have more of the post-trauma stress. Another one of the Taoist principles that, again, doesn't seem to fit with modern culture is this idea that we should be going slowly. Rather than speeding up and racing to get everywhere. It's like slowness that's going to help us. It does seem, and it certainly is true that the world, historically, culturally, even politically is moving faster and faster and faster. You know, when people used to just walk or they might've ridden a horse, the first thing they got on a

train, it was going 30 miles an hour. They were just hanging on to their seats like, oh my God, we're going so fast. We were just going to explode. The idea is when you're presented with this world that's going faster and faster and faster, the way to counter it, to be more healthy, to be happier really, is to find a way to slow yourself down at least part of the time. In Chinese, the phrase is manzu. Manzu means go slowly. And years ago, I had a group in China, and we were going to a temple called Chingshenshan. And I like that temple a lot because you can't just drive there. You have to hike up many, many, many stairs through the forest to get to the temple. And we had these porters who were carrying luggage and things, and sometimes even people, they

have little chairs that put you in and they'll carry you up there. And I was kind of going along the path and just kind of trudging up without thinking about it too much, and I would have to keep stopping to catch my breath. And finally, one of the porters looked at me, he just said, Manzo, Manzo. And even though I had not heard that term before, it was easy to understand what he meant. By going more slowly, I wouldn't have to stop more often, and I would actually get further with less effort and perhaps even quicker. And in China, in the old days, when you were saying

goodbye to someone, nowadays they say zai jian, which is basically like bye. But they would say man zo, which means go slowly away from me. You don't hear that as often, but last time I was in China, I was in a train station and I went into a little store to get some water and I was like charging out the door. And suddenly the woman in the store yelled out manzo, manzo. And it like stopped me in my tracks. And I realized I really did have enough time to get to the train. I don't have to rush so much. So if we can live our life that way with this idea of go slowly, listen slowly, when we're about to run out the door, most accidents happen when people are moving too quickly, right? And not

in their center, not grounded and rooted. When we do our Qigong practice, for instance, we always do a grounding rooting practice so that we feel we are connected to the living earth, that we are sending roots like a tree from the bottom of our feet way down into the earth. So when we start moving and doing our form, we are still grounded and rooted. And the more you can do just that grounding rooting practice, very simple practice, you can move through the world in a much more graceful, more of a dancerly way. And you can live your life instead of being in a rut, you are in a groove, which is something quite different. So many of these Taoist principles are, as you mentioned, like thousands of years old,

and it seems like more than ever, we're not living by them. Do you think we'd all be a little bit happier if we could embrace a bit more of the Wu Wei? Yes, of course. That's how I try to live my life. And I just turned 70 years old, and my partner Shanti is 69. And, you know, our 31-year-old roommate, she said, you know, you guys seem younger than a lot of my friends. Because we still have that sense of joy. We dance with each other. And the more you can dance with life, when you're in a rut, it's like you're in a canyon and you can't see either side because of the walls of the canyon. But when you're in a groove, it's like you're dancing through the mountains, through the deserts.

And when you're dancing, most people feel happier. They feel a sense of joy when they're dancing, right? No matter if they feel you're not a good dancer, I'm a clunky dancer, you're embarrassed about it. You may only do it in the privacy of your own home. But the more we can feel that sense of grace, that sense of joy, that sense of excitement in life, I think the happier and healthier we will all be. And why not use these principles that have stood the test of time,

right, for thousands of years? Why not incorporate them into our life? And we don't have to change our religion to be a Taoist. You know, we don't have to change whatever spiritual path we're on. We can just apply these principles to our life and see how they work in ourselves. Don't just read the book. Don't just listen to my words. Try to apply these ideas to your own life and see how that affects your life. That seems like a perfect thought on which to end this mini-season of Happiness Lessons of the Ancients. Over the last few episodes, we've heard about a ton of new happiness practices, ones developed over thousands of years of human history. Learning about these insights doesn't mean you have to totally upend your normal life. Instead, take a gentler, more

Taoist approach. You can experiment. Maybe prioritize a bit more forgiveness, but start small. Forgive yourself for something and just see how it feels. Or maybe try to observe a mini secular Shabbat. Rest and reflect for a few hours, but don't feel like you have to make it a whole day. Or devise a fun new social ritual. Start a monthly coffee meetup with a friend. Or schedule a no-phones family movie night. Or when some annoying obstacle crops up in your life, remember Salala's advice and ask, what would a river do? We're already working hard on the next full season of the show, and we'll be back with you this summer.

So until then, stay happy, and thank you for listening to The Happiness Lab with me-written and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show was mastered by Evan Viola, and our original music was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to the entire Pushkin crew, including Mia LaBelle, Carly Migliore, Heather Fane, Sophie Crane-McKibben, Eric Sandler, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries

and me, Dr. Laurie Santos. you