The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos - How Good Manners Made Me Happier (with Etiquette Expert William Hanson)

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

You might think etiquette is outdated. Who really needs a dinner with nice napkins and four different forks? Etiquette expert William Hanson disagrees. By observing good manners we show others we respect and care about them - deepening our bonds.  William (author of Just Good Manners and host of the podcast Help I Sexted My Boss) explains the origins of many formal behaviours and how they can make us happier. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Pushkin There's a long tradition in audio recording. To test someone's microphone, you ask them what they had for breakfast. So I put that question to today's guest, William Hansen. I had two poached eggs on some toast. If that sounds a bit elaborate for a random breakfast at home, you haven't heard the half of it. I used a fork and a knife. I put a placemat down, napkin.

We did it relatively formally for a Monday. Placemats? Napkins? I can't remember the last time I used a cloth napkin for breakfast. I'm not even sure I own any cloth napkins. Does everybody not have a napkin collection? They should. I can strongly advocate for having one because, you know, as anyone knows, in etiquette we have four different types of napkin size and I think it's nice to have an array.

I think a proper napkin is so much better than a sort of a tatty paper one or a piece of kitchen towel or something like that, which is not pleasant and very coarse on the lips. And years ago when I was living in a flat, we had a fire that was in the laundry cupboard and the napkins were right next door to the fire. And this is not what we advise people to do in the case of a fire, but I decided to save the napkins and was very carefully moving them out whilst the flat burned around me. This season of the Happiness Lab is all about the creative coping strategies real people use to get through their lives as joyfully as possible. And don't worry, this isn't

a show about using napkins. William Hansen is a self-confessed happy person. I think it's better to be happy if you can. It's very easy for me to say that, of course. But for me, I'm quite happy. I'm sort of consistently chipper. But aside from being a chipper chap, William is a respected expert on etiquette. And he shares that expertise on his podcast, Help I Sexed My Boss, and in a great new book

called Just Good Manners. I usually associate etiquette with prissy rules about which fort to use first at dinner, rules that make the uninitiated feel stupid and small. But reading William's book showed me how wrong I was. Turns out etiquette has more benefits than I realized. Because thinking deeply about how to behave in the company of other people

so that you're polite, considerate, and respectful, that can make you feel great too. William's been thinking about etiquette since childhood, and as you'll hear, it's made his passage through life far smoother and far more enjoyable. This will come as no shock to you, Laurie, but I think I was probably quite a precocious child and my late grandmother gave me a book of etiquette when I was 12 for Christmas. Not because I was feral, but because she thought I might enjoy it. And I did, And I was reluctantly

ready because there were more exciting presents to be playing with. But I started to read it. And as well as it being funny, that particular etiquette book, and I think it had been written sort of deathly seriously, I don't think I'd be sitting here now. But it opened up this sort of framework, most of which, you know, certainly the basics I knew, because my parents brought me up very nicely. And we sat at the table for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I had to write thank you letters after birthdays and Christmas. And we followed this sort of ritual of politesse. But there were other rules. Your average person probably didn't know, probably doesn't need to know. But I found it helped me sort of give structure and confidence

that actually in certain situations, some of which age 12 or 13 when I was reading this book, I mean, ludicrous, of course, I'm not going to be dining with an archbishop tomorrow, but I was ready should that happen. And of course, Etiquette is not just all about dining with archbishops and things like that, but it gave me this foot up in a positive way because I had chosen to learn and I bought more books because it posed lots of questions and that's really how my interest started. Do you think it came to you at a time, I'm just thinking of like, well, I was like at 13 and you know, you're kind of going through awkward puberty and things are weird.

Do you think it kind of helped your social anxiety? Like was it kind of coping to kind of dig into those etiquette skills? Yes, I think it probably was helping with that and knowing how to behave. At 12, 13, for anyone, we're all sort of a little bit all over the shop, our hormones are doing all sorts of things as we grow. For me, there was the gay thing as well. I knew at that age I was gay, but I hadn't told anyone. It wasn't long after that that I did come out. Now, whether actually etiquette sort of helped me, in my head, I probably was like, well, it doesn't matter that I'm gay because I actually know how to behave and I probably know how

to behave better than your average person. So I've always got that as a bit of a shield. And where were you when you decided to come out? If you don't mind sharing, like was that? I was at home in the summer between, we would call it year 11. So I was 16. In the summer between year 11 and year 12, we were waiting for my GCC results, which are the exams that you do at that age. And I was not a natural academic. I wasn't at the class dunks, but I was an average student. And I was very tense tense as indeed, I'm sure everybody is tense waiting for exam results. So there was quite a lot of heightened tension as we got

closer and I just sort of finally snapped and just thought, I just tell my parents. I think we were having an argument, which is unusual because I didn't read I was very apparently I was quite a placid child. But I think we were having a slight argument and I was losing and I thought I need something, a grenade to throw in to distract from the fact that I'm losing this argument. Oh, I know what, I threw in the gay thing. I forget what the argument was about. So one of the things we're sort of thinking about in this episode is this idea that like etiquette can be a way to sort of cope when things feel really uncertain. And I feel like

the times right now are feeling just incredibly uncertain, I feel like especially in the US right now, but probably all over the world. Do you have the sense that etiquette can be used to kind of give structure when things feel out of control? Yes, absolutely. It's parameters. It's just knowing what is expected of us, what is expected of other people. And I think children supposedly like frameworks and they are given a framework at school and at home as to what is expected of them. Not everybody is, but generally most children are. I'm not a child psychologist, but I think child psychologists would agree

that most children do thrive with frameworks and guidelines and knowing what is expected of them. And I think the same is true with adults as well. It's a different framework. It's a different form of expectations. It's more advanced in many ways. But I think actually sort of having a rock to cling onto in uncertain times, I don't think that's a bad thing. So how do you define etiquette? Because I think a lot of lay people, people who have not been as well versed in etiquette as you, might kind of misunderstand what it's about. Oh, yes. And look, people misunderstand etiquette on a daily basis. It doesn't help that etiquette as a word is an old French word. It sounds terribly posh, and it does go back to the

Court of Louis XIV in France as a word. But it is just about treating people with respect, tolerance, compassion, civility, charm, grace, whatever similar word you want to put in. And anyone who sort of says that we don't need to do that needs to be very politely just ushered off the planet really, because it would be a horrible place if we were treating people without any of those. I mean, I agree that we want to treat people nicely, but maybe just because I'm an American, I feel like at least before I read your book, I had this knee jerk reaction against etiquette. It just sort of felt a way that people were being overbearing or kind of holier than now. Like it seems like, okay,

we need to treat people nicely, but do we need to care where the fish fork is and where it goes on the plate and stuff? Tell me about the history of why etiquette kind of peaked in the aristocracy and why it started there and why maybe those of us who are maybe not as so aristocratic need to give it a chance. I would say that humans back in the days of cave people were forming a social construct as to how you should behave, who got access to the meat first, et cetera. So in terms of being codified and written down, it was Louis XIV and XV, as I mentioned, in France, who really structured it more or less like we have today or as close as two. However, there,

it was quite exclusive. It was designed to exclude. And if you didn't follow this code, you were demoted down court life. And they would have rules on how many ruffles your sleeves or collars would have depending on your status and what part of the grand levee, which was Louis' sort of morning ritual, which sounds hideous, basically, all these people watched him get out of bed. I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't want anyone watching me get out of bed. To be fair, it wasn't him actually getting out of bed. He got out of bed 10 minutes before and then got into another bed. But still, there was this sort of ritual. And if you were in that room, you had one of the highest statuses in the court. So there it was exclusive. But as

life has progressed, and we sort of finessed it, I would say now good etiquette and manners when practiced are inclusive. They are there to bring people together, to help us so we know what to do and what is expected of us. France don't have a monarch anymore. British monarchy monarchy is a very different monarchy from hundreds of years ago. No royal family anywhere in the world is now making up the rules as to how to behave. I would say now etiquette is quite democratic and we the people are discovering through trial and error often what we like as a group of people and what we don't like as a group of people. And it will always change. Etiquette will evolve and develop as humans walk the earth. And whoever are doing your and my jobs in 200 years time

will be talking about a completely different type of etiquette than what we're talking about today. If it's okay with you, we're gonna take a short break, but we'll return in a moment so William can explain how following a few rules can help your next social gathering go with a swing. The Happiness Lab will be right back. Hey everyone, Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab.

I was just looking at my calendar and wow, I can't believe we're halfway through 2025. This year is flying by and that made me realize that it's time to prioritize my travel goals. My husband and I keep saying that we want to visit Europe this year and that means my computer tabs are filled with Airbnb links. I've been finding some really cool spots. I love that Airbnb has so many options. I can always find a place that really fits the mood I'm looking for. I'm not sure which European place I'll choose yet but knowing me it'll probably have a pool.

If you've also got some exciting travel plans, or maybe you have a spare bedroom going unused, think about becoming a host on Airbnb. Hosting on Airbnb is easy. It's a simple way to make extra money for a vacation of your own. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. This is an advertisement from BetterHelp. Guys these days face tremendous pressure to perform,

to provide, to keep it all together, but bottling things up can lead to depression, burnout, and other unhealthy habits. So let's make it clear, guys, it's okay to struggle. Real strength comes from opening up about what you're carrying and doing something about it. If you're a man and you're feeling the weight of the world, you should talk to someone, anyone. That could be a friend or a loved one or even a therapist.

I know firsthand that therapy can help you gain positive coping skills. It can also teach you to be the best version of yourself. If you're considering therapy, why not give BetterHelp a try? As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of experience. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month

at betterhelp.com slash lori. That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p, dot com slash lori. That's better h-e-lcom.slash.lari. That's betterhelp.help.com.slash.lari. That's betterhelp.help.com.slash.lari. That's betterhelp.help.com.slash.lari. That's betterhelp.help.com.slash.lari. That's betterhelp.help.com.slash.lari. That's betterhelp.help.com.slash.lari. That's betterhelp.help.com.slash.lari. Every week on the Moth Podcast, we hear from incredible people who have found their own voice. There's this little bit of wisdom people say all the time, you know, that you should live

in the moment. Let me tell you something. There is nothing worse than being forced to live in the moment. Let me tell you something, there is nothing worse than being forced to live in the moment. The Moth podcast features real people telling their stories live on stage. To connect and learn from them, follow and listen to the Moth on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you listen to recent episodes of the Happiness Lab, you may have heard that sharing meals is a great way to create stronger bonds with the people around you and to feel happier. But a lot of us find organizing a dinner party or entertaining in our homes to be a bit daunting.

Etiquette expert William Hansen says a few simple rules can help. And he should know, because his homeland, the United Kingdom, has had quite the history when it comes to table manners. We are a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny country in comparison to, let's say, America or China or France. Our nearest country is at least double the size. And thus, we're much closer to the people that we live with. We're all living on top of each other.

Thus, we have to get on quite nicely. And you know, we're very closer to the people that we live with. We're all living on top of each other, thus we have to get on quite nicely. And, you know, we're very fortunate in this country, our weather is fairly bland. We don't have hurricanes, we don't have tsunamis, we don't have earthquakes. And so we don't have anything else to worry about, particularly. And we're very fortunate, again, very fortunate that it's generally a nice country. So, yes, we sort of thus have had the time and the headspace to develop this code. And yes, our food was historically, I mean, it has dramatically changed in the last 40 years, but historically our food was fairly plain. And so you can see why you might want to develop a series of rules to slow down how to eat it, because

it wasn't the most delicious. And maybe make it more festive too, hence the exciting napkin collection, I guess, right? Well, exactly. Yes. And again, there's a logic, particularly with dining, there is, for most things, there is a logic behind them. The knife goes on the right-hand side because that was your sword-carrying hand historically. That's why most people were right-handed and certain religions would say that anything held in the left hand, it was the hand of the devil. So thus, forks for many years were considered very suspicious of you using a fork. You used your hand and a knife. And then when various religions realized that actually if you used a fork, there was actually

nothing wrong with you. And actually forks quite helpful. And so, you know, the napkin of whatever size is there to protect your clothing and to take any sort of residue off your lips. So most things have been developed with a logic. And it's normally those that don't understand the logic whose default reaction is, well, it doesn't matter. Well, it does. It's just that it hasn't been explained to you correctly, or you've had some negative experience where someone else has used etiquette for bad, not for good.

Okay, can I talk to you about some of the things I learned in your book that I want to share with my listeners? Because it was like mind blown, like I had no idea where these things come from. Oh, great. Okay, love it. So one of my favorites, which comes up for me in my own dining as a kid, was the no elbows on a table rule. I just thought this was a completely arbitrary thing that, you know, parents and nannas come up with to like yell at the kids at like the Thanksgiving

table. But it turns out no elbows on the table. Very functional. Why? Yes. So that goes back to sort of medieval dining in the middle ages and the sort of 1500s, where you would have trestle tables with sheets of wood and they were created for the meals that they had and they only ate twice a day back then. So they weren't having three meals a day. These tables were cleared away and then basically these multi-purpose rooms then became bedrooms and you'd sleep on the floor. And so the food again we ate not like we eat now, it was almost sort of a big buffet style. The food was laid down the center of the table carefully balanced

so the table did not tip. So all the heavy stuff was down the very middle of the table. So if you put your elbows on the table and put a particular weight, particularly if you were an adult, the table would probably tip. And so it became the etiquette to not put your elbows on the table. And yes, so many people think, oh gosh, I can hear my mother, my father, my grandparents saying that to me. I would also say it's actually terribly difficult to eat with your elbows on the table. If you're using an iPhone 4, the angles don't align. Having your elbows on the table at the end of a meal, perhaps if I've come around to your house, Laurie, and we finished eating, we're having a cup of coffee at the end or a cocktail or whatever. If you've got your elbows on the table as a host, I would say

as a guest, that's fair enough. I can put my elbows on the table. But actually during a formal meal, no, don't put them there. And I have to say, like even in grad school, I had some tables that might not have been like medieval, but they were cheap things that, you know, could fall apart. So I love this one. Another thing that I learned from your book, makes sense, at least at the right time, was seating charts. This was another thing I never knew as a Yale professor. I sometimes have to go to these formal dinners where everybody has to sit in this specific spot. And I was

kind of like, who cares? Then I learned that this too came from important times back in the day, because as you mentioned before, of the swords. So explain why the guest of honor is often sitting in a very specific spot at the right hand side of the table and kind of where that came from. Yeah. So it's always to the host's immediate right is where you put the guest of honor. And actually, if you look at the White House, as you have the photographs of those two armchairs that are in front of the fire and the Oval Office, the president is always on camera right and to his right is always the visiting head of state, whoever it is. And that was because

your sword was on your left hip. And so if someone was sort of going to attack you, you would draw your sword and protect them. So it would be across your guest of honour or whoever you were protecting. And that's also why, I mean, Britain gets a bad rap for driving on the left, whereas everyone other countries drive on the right. Should just say that all countries drove on the left historically and it wasn't driving, it was horse and cart. And you did that because again for necessity, because if someone was a highwayman was going to attack you, you would take out your sword. And it was Napoleon and the French

who thought, well, they hated us. So we'll just switch sides to annoy them. And lots of other countries shocked, didn't like the British either. So they copied suit as well. Everyone else changed it, not us. Okay. So I didn't know it was driving that was about swords, but I love that it was formal dinners were about swords. But there was a lot of etiquette is about swords. It's quite violent actually. It actually makes so much sense. Okay, the other fancy dress thing that I loved you explaining, which has to do again with formal seating, is why so many of the formal dinners I go to, including weddings, are set boy, girl, boy, girl, which felt very gendered, very weird. Why do

we have to do that? Yeah, so sort of at the start of the Georgian period of history in Britain, so George I, it was all men down one side, all women down the other side of the table. And you didn't have the concept of dating, as we have now, and courtship. And so as life began to progress, they thought, well, actually, let's sort of alternate the genders. Obviously, it was Georgian England and they assumed that there were just two genders, which we can unpick that another time, but just we're going with what they believed. So it was this boy, girl, boy, girl, which I think is probably preferable to all men down one side, all women down another. And the etiquette was that if you were married,

you were actually seated apart from each other, not drastically far apart, just a little bit. So you can talk to other people because you do live with them. So you might want a bit of a change as much as we love our spouses. If you were engaged, we look at Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice, you know, they weren't going off to the cinema and sitting in an olive garden having a nice get to know you dinner. There was none of that, really. They just saw each other at balls and might have had tea with the family. And then suddenly, they were going to spend the rest of their life together. So hostesses would put these couples next to each other at dinners. So at least they could have some sort of private conversation.

I would say now you don't need to do such gendered, strict seating. I would just say just balance it. Try not to have clusters of any particular gender all in one bit to the detriment of another space on the table. I love my husband to pieces, but I don't actually want to sit next to him at dinner because I want to be able to in the car on the way home go, guess what I learned tonight? And be able to share and swap stories. But equally, if I was going to a dinner where I knew nobody else other than my husband and the host, actually then I do want to sit next to my husband probably, probably, not always. So we can take a lot from where we have come from in order to work out what we like from back then, what we don't like, and also create our own etiquette as

well. Can I ask a different, I think you mentioned in the book that another reason for the boy-girl boy-girl thing with women's dresses were just enormous and that they couldn't fit. Yes. So, you know, again, sort of Georgian and Elizabethan, sort of like Victorian era, early Victorian era, women's dresses were so volan, sort of like Victorian era, early Victorian era, women's dresses were so voluminous, often with hoops, and they couldn't actually physically get to the table. So you would have to have somebody not wearing such a voluminous outfit, i.e. men, to assist you getting in and out of the chair. Yeah, the pulling out of the chair was not

because the women were the weaker sex or anything like that. It was just out of absolute necessity because women couldn't physically do it. And then obviously, when dresses became a lot more practical, you sort of still did that as a bit of a nod to where we had come from. Today, some people like it, some people hate it. I would say just pull out a chair for anyone you're sitting next to, however they identify. And actually, I saw the other day a woman pulled out the chair for her husband, who was a man, and I thought, gosh, that's lovely. There's nothing wrong with it. Again, we're still sort of tipping the hat to where we've come from.

So yeah, do it for any fellow human being. And the huge dress thing gets to something we've already talked about, which is the importance of napkins of different sizes. Another thing I didn't realize, with the different size napkins, also actually had a function too. Yes. So you had the largest dinner size napkins, which were between 24 and 26 centimeters. I think you work in inches, so apologies.

But they were the largest and so they would sort of be completely over the ball gown because you were wearing this huge ball gown and so you would need a larger napkin to cover it. If I look through your book and all the domains where we see these etiquette rules popping up, they happen in all parts of life, but they seem to crop up especially at these moments of rites of passage, right? Weddings, funerals, these big scary state dinners. And that seems like exactly the time, psychologically, where you might want more of the structure to reduce uncertainty.

Is that your sense of kind of how these rituals developed? Is it that they were kind of during these moments of uncertainty? Yes, I think so. And I think probably the hatched, matched and dispatched points of our lives are probably when, you know, we have large groups of people that come together, particularly for the wedding one, and you've got lots of different personalities, lots of different family dynamics and always have done as far as sort of matrimony has been a thing. And so that's why these rules have popped up in particular. And everyone's got an opinion, particularly on weddings.

I also think you see this just in times where there are these subtle things about the psychology that are hard to understand. But if you just stick a rule in, you can protect people. One of my favorite examples that my colleague, Dave Disteno, the psychologist who studies rituals, talks a lot about is in moments of death and certain rituals that come up during grieving.

He talks about a case in Shiva, in the Jewish tradition, where during the period of mourning, you're supposed to cover up all the mirrors in the house, which kind of seemed like a very strange etiquette rule or ritual. But it turns out that seeing yourself being sad or seeing yourself being anxious in a mirror amplifies that sense of being sad or seeing yourself being anxious in a mirror amplifies that sense of being sad or being anxious. And so the Shiva tradition of covering up the mirrors makes all the grievers not kind of compounded their grief just by seeing how messed up you look and how sad you look all the time. Any other examples kind of like this that come

up in more traditional etiquette moments where it seems like it's about kind of protecting people psychologically in ways that we might not expect. Yes, and that fundamentally, I mean, and also say a lot of our more traditional etiquette has come from religion, whichever religion that is. And I would say most religions do share the same core principles. But yes, it is just a consideration for other people before ourselves. And the idea is that I'm putting you first first and you're putting me first, and it's this nice, homogenous unit. That is the idea. And actually, the shiver thing reminds me of, for many years, I was really reticent to post videos of myself on social media, doing etiquette tips, which is something that's very commonplace now for lots of people in whatever industry. But I was really reluctant because I don't think it is healthy to constantly look at yourself,

whether you've got an ego or you're insecure or not. I think it can be quite harmful. And so I take away mirrors generally, to be honest, whether we're grieving or not. So sometimes etiquette comes up in these big scary times, the, what did you say, hatched, Sometimes etiquette comes up in these big scary times, the, what did you say, hatched, catched. Hatched, matched, and dispatched. Yes. So etiquette comes up in these hatched, matched, and dispatched times. But there are lots of times that are a little bit anxiety provoking when we're engaging

in social connection. And a big one is the dinner. Talk about some strategies that can reduce uncertainty during moments of dinner. Thinking about well-set tables, that kind of thing. Well, yeah. uncertainty during moments of dinner, thinking about well-set tables, that kind of thing. Well, yeah, I mean, I think when you arrive to eat, whether it's in a restaurant, your friend's house, anywhere, however grand it is, if the table and the room look inviting, and there's been a little bit of consideration into the table setting, you're probably a

little bit more relaxed than if actually all the cutlery is in a pot in the middle of the table, some of it's a bit grubby, there's a few scraps of slightly unattractive kitchen towel on the table, you think, do they even want me here? Have they really prepared? Am I being a burden on them? And I think hospitality is, whether you're doing it professionally or you're doing it sort of socially, is about making others feel welcome and relaxed and thus putting in a bit of effort if you're going to have friends over is key. If you don't want to have friends over, that's fine. Don't have friends over. Go out to a restaurant or do it another way. And then, yes, if you're eating food and you don't know what to do with it and you're presented with

something new, don't be afraid to ask. Ask your host, gosh, this looks delicious, how best do you suggest I eat it? Or just sort of slightly hang back and just see what everyone else is doing. May not be correct, but if they're doing it, they're going to think it's correct. Yeah, I'm a big believer in the hang back. As someone who hasn't studied a lot of etiquette and is American, but finds myself in lots of these formal moments, I'm a big hang backer and watch what everybody else does. Especially for the positioning of the thing. Somehow the bread little dish, I never know what's going on.

Okay. Well, with your bread plate. Yes, exactly. What you need to remember is you need to remember BMW motor cars. So as you look at your place setting, B for bread, it's on the left, M for meal, it's in the middle, and W for wine, it's on the right. So as you sit down, you know that your bread plate is on the left. If you start taking bread from the right-hand side, that's someone else's bread plate, that's stealing. That's very bad manners. So your bread plate is on the left. This happened recently. I was giving a talk and we were at a restaurant and they had the

bread plates set up and I was like, which side should I be taking it from? Which side should I be taking it from? And I realized they just set the wrong number of bread plates. So there's one too few. So I did the math and I was like, wait a minute. Okay, this is not me. This is yes. This is something that I have more and more frequently as I write about these rules, whether it's in just good manners or doing a video on Instagram or whatever or teaching. And it's all very well, we go, well, this is this is how glasses are arranged or this

is how cutlery is arranged. But if the restaurant or your friends has not done it properly, you might actually, what I have told you to do might be complete rubbish. You're like BMW, but you're like, wait, MWB, I don't know what's going on. It's all very confusing. Exactly. Yes. So I would always, you know, and I think that's why it's good to sort of know what the etiquette should be. And then you can either choose to apply it or you go, do you know what, wrong setting here, tear it up and do something else. I love this idea of just kind of making the table so beautiful and having all the napkins

and so on. But one of the things we've talked about in the show is this idea of sort of scruffy hospitality, that social connection is so important and loneliness is so prevalent that you shouldn't let kind of worries about cleanliness and worries about having the perfect table setting come up. wouldn't let worries about cleanliness and worries about having the perfect table setting come up. Any advice there of how you can be minimum about the etiquette stuff and the table settings and the fanciness, but still get the social connection in and still get the hospitality into?

Will Barron Well, one of the things that I see a lot of, particularly if people haven't hosted an awful lot and good on them for trying, and we've all had our first dinner party, And for most of us, it probably went horrifically. But like anything, the more you do it, the better you get. But don't run before you can walk. If your dining table seats four at a push, don't invite five. I mean, it's extraordinary how many... It's happening less now as I'm getting older, but how many friends' dinner parties we've gone to, and they're trying to cram it in because we want five. We're not comfortable. Wherever we are eating, we want to be comfortable eating, particularly as we get older. We want chairs that sort of support us and we want to not think, thank

God I can go home. So comfortable environment. The food does not have to be cooked yourself. You can buy it in. You can have cooked and the food can be just passable. It doesn't need to be delicious. So food that's nice but doesn't need to be phenomenal and you can have bought it in. A clean table, clean cutlery, clean glassware, not glassware where I can see your thumb prints and your fingerprints as you've placed it down on the table. That's not very appetizing or hygienic. A nice napkin. if you're going to do paper because you can't be bothered to wash napkins, there are some really good sort of three or four ply thicker proper paper napkins you can get. Most supermarkets or stores that sell napkins will have them so you can just still throw them out and they can be

recycled. And if you're going to have music on in the background, a lot of people get triggered by really loud music and actually the best soundtrack to any sort of party is just people chatting and laughing. And actually, so don't spend two days curating the perfect dinner party playlist because we really shouldn't be listening to it. We might hear it at the start when there are a few of us there, but as the party gets into the swing of it, we shouldn't be hearing the music. So have it there in the background, but really on very low. Social gatherings, when they go smoothly, can be a great source of happiness. And observing a set of agreed upon rules without being a jerk about it can help ensure that these interactions go well. But that's not the only benefit of taking etiquette more seriously, which we'll hear more

about after the break. Hey everyone, Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. I was just looking at my calendar and wow, I can't believe we're halfway through 2025. This year is flying by and that made me realize that it's time to prioritize my travel goals. My husband and I keep saying that we want to visit Europe this year and that means my computer tabs are filled with Airbnb links. I've been finding some really cool spots. I love that Airbnb has so many options. I can always find a place

that really fits the mood I'm looking for. I'm not sure which European place I'll choose yet, but knowing me, it'll probably have a pool. If you've also got some exciting travel plans, or maybe you have a spare bedroom going unused, think about becoming a host on Airbnb. Hosting on Airbnb is easy. It's a simple way to make extra money for a vacation of your own. Your home might be worth more than you think.

Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. Every week on the Moth Podcast, we hear from incredible people who have found their own voice. There's this little bit of wisdom people say all the time, you know, that you should live in the moment. Let me tell you something. There's this little bit of wisdom people say all the time, you know, that you should live in the moment. Let me tell you something, there is nothing worse than being forced to live in the moment. The Moth Podcast features real people telling their stories live on stage. To connect and learn from them, follow and listen to The Moth on the free Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration in the United States. Recipients have done the improbable, showing immense bravery and sacrifice in the name of something much bigger than themselves. This medal is for the men who went down that day. It's for the families of those who didn't make it. I'm JR Martinez. I'm a US Army veteran myself and I'm honored to tell you the stories of these heroes on the new season of Medal of Honor Stories of Courage from Pushkin Industries and I Heart podcast. From Robert Blake, the first

black sailor to be awarded the medal, to Daniel Daly, one of only 19 people to have received the Medal of Honor twice. These are stories about people who have distinguished themselves by acts of valor, going above and beyond the call of duty. You'll hear about what they did, what it meant, and what their stories tell us about the nature of courage and sacrifice.

Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. William Hansen's new book, Just Good Manners, taught me that etiquette has a lot of unexpected benefits. And one of my favorite benefits is that etiquette often acts like a break, which can be a good thing when it comes to our happiness. Our lives often pass at lightning speed.

But if you organize a dinner party following William's tips, considering the seating plan or giving thought to the napkins, you have the time needed to anticipate just how fun it'll be. Research shows that humans get a happiness boost from this sort of anticipation. We also enjoy events way more when we have a chance to savor them, rather than rushing through everything all the time. So does William agree that etiquette can help us find room for pause in our hectic lives? Yes, and I think it's about just slowing down life. And I think as life is so fast paced now compared to how it was in sort of etiquette's heyday, I think it's good just to pause and

take time. Let's look at communications, written communication. We can communicate instantly with people and get a response. That's fantastic in so many ways. But if we had to do it like they did in Jane Austen time, where you would write a letter and then you would wait for it to be collected, which might have been the day or the day after that. And then it would go via horse and cart to even somewhere within your city, but it could be two cities away. And then, you know, you might not get a response for a month. So you had time, they had the luxury, it wasn't considered at the time, but they had the luxury of time of considering how are we going to respond? What's the best thing to do? I need to be concise as well because

I've got papers expensive as well and we're not, we're going to try and keep it as short as possible. Whereas now we are expected to sort of have the answers immediately upon sending a message and we have to speak and hope or write and hope that what we say is in some ways comprehensible, not offensive, clear and it's not always going to be possible. It also seems like this act of being more present can come from things that I sometimes, again, as my first American background brought me up to be, things like dress codes, right? Whereas I often think of the dress code as something that's overbearing, that's constraining my freedom and so on. But you've argued that it's a way, again, of being a little bit more

present, maybe even of honoring the being a little bit more present, maybe even of honoring the people that are kind of throwing whatever event this is. Can you explain what you mean? Again, if you have been invited to a party, someone has spent money, presumably, or time and effort on looking after you and taking interest in you

and wanting you to have a nice time. And so by doing things correctly and honoring it and following what is expected of you, you are honoring them and the friendship rather than this sort of, well actually I don't want to do that, I'm just going to ignore that. And thinking somehow that someone is above the rules. So it seems like one of the ways that etiquette can really help us is doing this sort of honoring, is this kind of other-oriented take on how you should behave in these kinds of settings. Will Barron And I would say also treating people with respect is a constant. How we treat people with respect might have changed over time,

from the time of George III to now, and it will always change etiquette as a shapeshifter. And it would be ridiculous for me to say what's published in Just Good Manners in 100 Years' Time. Every single sentence I write is going to be exactly the same. I think the core principles hopefully will be the same, but it will change. Yes, I think it is important, particularly when the world around us, our social, political, diplomatic life might be incredibly uncertain. The easy thing to do would be to sink to that level. Life is not easy. We know that. And actually, what we need to do is raise people to a slightly higher standard, particularly those in higher office. And I

can see why some people, whichever country, and so many countries have, you know, it's not peachy for everybody. But I can see why a lot of people think, well, why should I be nice? You can be a bit of a brute, or you can be a bit of a bully, or say the wrong thing, and you can get to the highest office in the land. It applies to many, many heads of state. And what we know from the science is that this is very effective in terms

of boosting people's happiness. I think we assume with so much in the world right now talking about self-care and treating yourself that being as selfish as possible when it comes to food or whatever would make us feel good. But study after study shows that doing nice things for others, whether it's spending money on other people, doing kind of like charity acts for other individuals, that makes us feel better than doing for ourselves. So another thing that you talk a lot about in terms of being a good guest that really

resonates with the science is the importance of expressing gratitude. And you are a big fan, I know, of the thank you letter. Why are thank you letters so important, so powerful? I think they're more powerful now in an era where so little is handwritten by hand. Most things are emails. I think actually to have something, I think it shows more effort. I mean, that's it. I'd rather someone emailed me a thank you than literally a void of silence. But for someone to actually put pen to paper and to pay for a stamp, which I'm sure in your country, but it's definitely an hour's stamps cost rise and rise and rise almost every six months, but actually to sort of have taken a moment to put in a little bit of effort to say thank you, especially if the effort has been quite considerable on my part, just to squiggle

a few lines, I think is so nice. I think it carries more clout and basically gets you brownie points more than if you just send to send a quick sort of DM to go, yeah, thanks so much for dinner. See you soon, kiss, which you've probably written lying in bed, picking your nose, thinking about what you're going to have for breakfast in the morning. It's not quite the same. You've seen the benefit of these brownie points

kind of, I guess, secondhand with your friend Daphne. Tell me the story of Daphne and why her thank you notes were so powerful. Daphne is a gorgeous person. She's now in her 90s. When I first stayed with Daphne in her early 80s, I was not living in London at the time, but I was working in London a lot.

If I'd had an early start, I would stay with Daphne. Daphne told me the following story. I should say Daphne's house, beautiful Mary Poppins-esque Chelsea townhouse, gorgeous. And Daphne and her twin sister grew up outside of London in the north of England, and every Christmas was sent a one pound note. Now we don't have one pound notes anymore. But back then, 95 years ago, a one pound note was a lot of money, particularly

for two girls to be getting. They would each get it. And they would sort of once they got to four or five, they would start squiggling a little thank you letter to say thank you to this great aunt who was sending them the money. And sort of as they got older they begun to understand that this great aunt was persona non grata with the family. There was some family feud. You just did not talk about this great aunt. And as Stephanie and her sister were now in their twenties, they were living in London, they thought, well, we'll put in our thank you letters. We don't care what this argument was. We don't know. Can we take you out for lunch, please, to say thank you properly?

Never did they get a response. And then one year, Daphne's sister said, look, I'm going to stop writing because I sort of, it's embarrassing. It's not worth as much as it was. We're earning money. She never had any other contact with her, I sort of want her to save her money and give it to someone else. So she stopped writing, Daphne continued and still for about five or six more years, they were both sent their one pound note. And shortly after one Christmas, they receive nothing. And then after Christmas, Daphne received a phone call to say, I'm so sorry to tell you, but your great aunt has died. And in her will, she has left you her Chelsea townhouse. It's because you always wrote a thank you letter. The sister was not left anything.

Swamp, swamp. Yeah, exactly. And so I always write to Daphne when I stay with her because she never knows. That's awesome. I mean, I think that's a case of getting brownie points, you know, like literal brownie points from the person you send a thank you letter to. But psychologically, there's lots of evidence that we get these kind of happiness boosting brownie points just because the act of writing a thank you letter to someone else, especially in research has looked at this a by hand thank you letter that you put some detail into. It winds up not just making the person who receives the letter happy, it makes you happy too.

In fact, a study by Marty Seligman and colleagues finds that the boost in happiness you get, small but significant boost in happiness you get, lasts for somewhere between one to three months, which is sort of incredible, right? It's like this really long-standing little boost in happiness that we get from a handwritten thank you letter. And so-

Oh, I love that. That's great to know. And actually, so strongly do I believe in the thank you letter thing when we were doing the book for America, it came out in Britain last year, I said to gallery, Simon and Schuster, the publishers, I said, look, can I do an appendix, which I should have done for the UK book, but I didn't think of it at the time, of sample thank you letters, because sometimes people say to me, oh, yeah, well, I don't know what to say, which I don't think is much of an excuse. I mean, whisper it quietly. I mean, you can get AI to help you write a thank you letter if you really are struggling. You know,

an AI helps thank you letters better than nothing. So yes, I've done this sort of additional appendix of all different scenarios and just things just to help inspire people so they know sort of how long they should be writing and what sort of tone it should take. It's funny that we have such trouble with thank you letters because I think we don't have that much trouble with the opposite, which is like writing complaint letters or complaint reviews on Yelp or something like that. It seems like the negative part of it comes really easily to us. But you have a little etiquette suggestion here as well.

You know that we should try to limit our complaints generally, or at least try to balance our complaints with the positive. I think it should be a two to one ratio at minimum. So we've talked so much about these kinds of traditions that have come from back in the day, from our time of swords and aristocracy and so on. You've noticed the etiquette is changing and probably will change if we add this podcast

in 200 years, none of what we said might be the same. Where are the domains where you think it's changing, especially in some of these spots where we might be dealing with kind of new moments of uncertainty or new sort of social times that feel potentially fraught? I think attitudes and more enlightened approaches generally to gender, I think is changing etiquette. Certainly, I've taught etiquette for nearly 20 years. And 20 years ago, I would have said socially, in terms of the introduction precedence, deciding who is more important than others in the introduction, you've got to say somebody's name first. Obviously, in a business case, gender is irrelevant,

ditto age. But socially, 20 years ago, you would have looked at age and gender. So granny being 80 is lifted beyond Annie, who's 18. So you would say granny may introduce Annie because granny is older. But if you had Annie and you had Matthew, you would have gone historically, Annie may introduce Matthew and you would have risen Annie and not Matthew. I think that age is still socially looked at and that's fair enough. I say it's fair enough. Come back to me in 20 years, I might have had an epiphany and say it's not. But the gender one, we are completely, as we are more accepting and more aware of different genders, we are just revising that

and the weight that we give that. And sometimes it will be correct in the introduction to do it that way, but not always. And actually it's probably moving towards a more business-orientated structure of it goes on rank or position. Socially, we don't, of course, have ranks. I mean, we do in Britain, because we have the aristocracy, but they are infinitesimal in comparison

to the general population. Do you think that we're gonna be developing new etiquette rules for new technologies? The folks at OpenAI sort of issued this plea asking, hey, when you talk to Chad GPT, can you not tell them please and thank you? Because just like those words take up so much space in the AI, it's like so much computing power for OpenAI to kind of deal with the thank yous that if just people just deleted them, it would be faster and would save, you know, whole rainforests of computing power and stuff. And I just found, oh my gosh, it's so hard for us to shut off these etiquette rules, even when we're talking

to an AI. And I hope we don't. I hope we keep our please and thank you when we're talking to Claude and ChatGPT and so on. Exactly. Yes. Ignore what OpenAI say, please. Keep saying please and thank you to your smart speaker. I mean, I still will ask whatever my smart speaker is called. I won't say it now. You know, I'll say, do this, please, which I think is nice. We need to sort of keep the reflex and keep the politeness muscle honed.

Hopefully we can write her a thank you letter too, because she does so much for us, our smart speaker. Exactly. Yes. And especially we gratefully, gratefully receive it. And just as a last question, lightning round, top three etiquette tips that you wish everyone knew. Well, yeah, you don't need to have read just good manners, gone to etiquette class or gone,

you know, watched an etiquette video on Instagram to know you should be making eye contact with people when you talk to them, especially when you greet them, but also when you talk to them. Have a good handshake. Now, culturally, what is a good handshake changes, but in the West it's basically two pumps locking the fingers and the thumb, again making eye contact, firm but not too firm. And try to use people's names as much as possible because we respond better. A little happiness valve is released in us when we hear our own name and when it's used and we actually the opposite valve the valve gets turned off when someone gets our name wrong and if I'm allowed a fourth you cannot say please or thank you enough. And to honor that spirit of politeness I'd like to offer my deepest thanks to William Hansen for

such an enlightening interview. After chatting with him, I'm gonna try to embrace the rules of etiquette a bit more, because a little formality does seem to be a great way to show love and respect to the people you care about. You know, I might even go out and find some cloth napkins. In our next episode on creative coping strategies, we'll be moving from the gentility of dining rooms to the wilds of mother nature,

because I'll be talking with someone who finds her comfort in birds. That's all next time on the Happiness with via video, phone, or chat. Here's BetterHelp head of clinical operations, Heshew Jo, discussing who can benefit from therapy. I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're having panic attacks every day, but before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing

that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships, that could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody. There's always a benefit in talking to someone because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people. So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody. Find out if therapy is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com today.

That's betterHELP.com. The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration in the United States. Recipients have done the improbable, the unexpected, showing immense bravery and sacrifice in the name of something much bigger than themselves. This medal is for the men who went down that day. On Medal of Honor, Stories of Courage, you'll hear about these heroes and what their stories tell us about the nature of bravery. Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your

podcasts. The destruction is nearly incomprehensible unless you see it for yourself. I found that my house was gone as well as every house on my block. How could this have happened? And where do we go from here? LA is rebuilding. There is no doubt about that. Less clear is how. We know the faster we can rebuild, the faster we can heal. There are kind of two separate conversations at a high level that I don't think we're having that we could have in this rush to kind of build things back as they were.

I'm Kate Kegel, host of the new podcast Rebuilding LA from LA Times Studios. We will try to answer some of these questions as we assess the path forward. Rebuilding LA launches June 11th. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. Find it wherever you get your podcasts.