The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos - Malala on Burnout, Guilt and How to Disagree Better

Episode Date: July 11, 2022

Nobel Peace Prize winners feel burnout too. Malala Yousafzai - who survived an assassination attempted by the Taliban - works tirelessly so that more women and girls can access education. But she often feels guilty at taking time off, but knows she must to avoid burnout.  She shares her tips with Dr Laurie Santos on how to achieve work/life balance; how to deal with disappointment; and how to build bridges with people we disagree with.  (Recorded live at Yale's Silliman College.)  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pushkin. Malala Yousafzai grew up in a remote part of Pakistan, then ruled by the violent militants of the Taliban. Life for women under this oppressive regime was incredibly hard. And Malala, though just a child, spoke openly about the restrictions placed on her and her peers, and how it had become hard just to attend school. And then one day, on a bus ride home from an exam, two Taliban gunmen approached her vehicle. Who is Malala, they asked. The next thing Malala remembers is waking up in the hospital. She had survived a gunshot wound to the head. But instead of wavering, she began championing harder and louder for equality in girls' education worldwide. And at the age of 17, she became the youngest person ever to receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

Recently, I was lucky enough to host a live event with Malala at my residential college at Yale. And I thought all my Happiness Lab listeners might like to hear not only her inspirational story, but also to listen to a remarkable woman like Malala, talking about burnout, self-criticism, guilt, family frictions, and even relaxing with Ted Lasso. Everyone at Yale, everyone around the world who's joining us, please join me in welcoming Malala. So settle in to hear some happiness lessons from Malala with me, Dr. Laurie Santos on The Happiness Lab. Lab. I'm imagining that talking to a professor like this over Zoom on a clunky internet connection must take you back to when you switched to remote university back at Oxford in 2020. I'm just curious, that time was so difficult for my students at Yale. What was it like for you,

and how did you handle it? This was a tough time for students all around the world. When the pandemic hit, no one was prepared for how it would impact their studies. I took my exam from home. I graduated from home. And then again, I was stuck at home. I was so excited for life after university. I was just waiting for that moment when I would be able to move out and just explore what was out there. It was quite difficult because you realize that it's not just explore what was out there. It was quite difficult

because you realize that it's not just you. It's like, it's everybody. It's all of us. And unfortunately, some of us were impacted more than others because of where they come from and which geographies they were based. I do advocacy for girls' education

and I dream of a world where we see the number of girls who are out of school reduced with time. But when COVID hit, at Malala Fund, we did a research which showed that 20 million more girls are at risk of dropping out because they're stuck at home. They're more likely to be forced into marriages. They also will be helping their families financially. And I realized that, you know, progress is not linear as we are promised or as we are told. There are these setbacks, there are these external shocks that can damage the work

that's been done for the past many, many decades. COVID was such a tough time. But I mean, the amazing thing about your work is you're constantly turning your attention to these awful, awful situations that face women's education and that face refugees. And one of the things I wanted to talk about in our conversation today is how you get to keep doing such important work, you know, how you kind of take care of yourself, like in the context of kind of dealing with so much suffering. The thing that I admire most about you, and I know so many people admire most about you, which is your courage. You know, it feels like you're constantly diving in and doing really hard things. And I'm curious what you do to cultivate that. Like, are there strategies that you use to like psych yourself up to do all the kinds of things

that intimidate you? You know, what advice would you give for, you know, budding activists to think about how they can gain some courage? Activism is, you know, sort of my day-to-day job. And I do not limit activism to just appearing on stage or doing a TV interview or visiting a refugee camp. I think when you are an activist, you have to ensure that you are reflecting the message in your own actions as well and how you live your life. So if I am promoting forgiveness and kindness and if I'm bringing attention to justice and fairness, and I believe that, you know, we should be living in a society where everyone is treated fairly, regardless of their gender and their background, then I need to question myself, you know, is that reflecting from the way I live my life or not? You know,

sometimes you have to make tough choices, you have to ask tough questions, and it does require a lot of strength to do that. But in my own personal journey, you know, I know what it is like to be told not to go to school. And I know what it is like to be deprived of education. It was in 2008 and 2009 when the Taliban gained a lot of influence in Swat Valley in the north of Pakistan. They banned girls' education. They banned women from going to markets. They were actually against the presence of women in public. And they did not see a society where women could practice equal rights as men. So I was part of that.

I wanted the world to speak out for me. I wanted someone to raise their voice for me. And in this moment, when I look at the fact that there are 127 million girls out of school, that right now in Afghanistan, girls are banned from secondary education, that refugee crisis is worsening, and more and more children are impacted by wars and conflicts, and more and more children are not receiving safe and quality education that they deserve. So I look back and I think about that Malala, who wanted the world to speak out. So I feel a sense of responsibility because I wish more people had spoken out for me. And I know that there are

girls who want us to speak out for them. This work of sort of speaking out is so, so important, right? Both doing it yourself and kind of being this ripple effect so you can cause other people to speak out. It's so critical, but it also can be so exhausting. Like kind of holding the crises of the world so close, you know, is tough. And so I'm wondering, especially being so young when you started this, like, you know, how you're able to keep doing this work that requires so much resiliency? You know, have you ever gotten close to burnout? Are there things you do to protect yourself from burnout and doing this work? The burnout is there in different phases. It's like, you know, you focus on one cause and one mission

and you put so much energy into it and then you achieve nothing. So I do advocacy for financing for education because there's a huge gap in financing for education and it's reaching up to 200 billion dollars. So if it keeps expanding and we are not investing enough into education, the crisis worsens. And we know it has that ripple effect as well. Our health, our economies, gender equality, all of these things are impacted when we don't invest in the education of girls and the quality education of all of our children. So, you know, these things concern me. And when I do advocacy and I push for like, you know, these G7 leaders or G20 countries

and other policymakers makers and then sometimes they say a few nice words and and when you look at the policy they have not made any financial commitment they are not actually making the right policies that can ensure that we see gender equality and we see enough investment in in girls education so it does frustrate you so there is that burnout in that sense that you feel like could I have done a bit more was it a bit optimistic of me that I even considered it to be impactful but then in those times I remind myself of the positives and of the success that we have made for instance seeing the progress that has been made in terms of focusing on this

higher secondary education of girls. The focus so far had been on primary education, but now they have pushed for complete 12 years of education. And I know that, you know, we need to give complete education to every child so that they can make choices for themselves for their future. So, you know, that has been a success. So there is a bit of hope and optimism in those times. You have to remind yourself that if you are exhausted, you are not going to be productive anyway. And you are not going to be able to help in your activism and your mission as much as you would want to be. So you need to recharge yourself. So I'm wondering how you do that. I know, you know,

my students at Yale, sometimes they feel kind of stressed and anxious when they take time off. I feel like that must be even worse if you're an activist like you doing such amazing work. You know, I'm curious, you know, how do you get yourself to take a break? What does Malala do for fun? I guess is the question. Yeah, I think the guilt is always there when you take a break. And for me personally, it is spending time with my friends even if it's you know one video chat even that helps or spending time with my partner and just you know going for a nice dinner or just taking a bit of time off I love to play badminton and cricket as well yeah just just spending time with your family can really help you and you know know, watch a comedy show, watch Ted Lasso or watch, you know,

Inventing Anna or something like that. And it sort of distracts you for a moment. And then you are back into your mission with a fresh mind and with a new perspective. And it really helps you to be more productive and more efficient in your work. That's awesome. I love to hear that you prioritize taking rest and having fun and just like, you know, watching Ted Lasso. Amazing show. I'm also curious about a different kind of stressor that you face that's maybe different than some of my Yale students, which is that like, you know, you're this public figure, right? You know, I know, I know so many of my Yale students, especially my seniors now are facing this hard choice of like, what should they do after college and sort of thinking about next steps. But, you know, with a huge public platform like yours, I'm guessing the consequences of your choices must feel even bigger. Like, there just must feel like there's so many important things at stake. And so, you know, having just graduated from Oxford and things like, you know, how you handle this, like, how do you make such big decisions? And do you grapple with the same kind of indecision that I see with my young people at Yale too?

Yes, I think, you know, young people in this time are facing a lot of pressure. They feel the urgency to take action. And there are a lot of issues that concern us. And we know that if we don't take action sooner, these issues would get worse. And climate change is one example of that. I think with this generation, we do dream of a better, fairer, generation, we do dream of a better, fairer, kinder, more peaceful world. And it still really frustrates us to imagine that we still exist in a world where wars are happening, where people are not actually understanding how, you know, for some economic gains, we put the lives of people at risk and that we are still discriminating against people based on their gender, based on their skin color, based on their background, on their income level. So, you know, but I'm really happy to see

that young people are concerned about these issues and that they care and that they come out and they take action. But I think at the same time, it's really important for young people to prioritize their own learning, their own expertise as well, because, you know, with time you realize that you also deserve to be in those positions of power. You also deserve to be in politics. You know, you need to be the CEOs of the future. You need to be the prime ministers and presidents of the future. You need to take the roles of ministries as well. And you are in a best place to make those decisions that can actually help people. So I do encourage young people to take a

role in these organizations, in politics as well, build your expertise, continue your education, learn from other people. But in future, like do imagine yourselves as the decision makers, and then you can make those decisions for the future. That's awesome. We had one question from my Silliman student Akio who asks about what it's like to be a pop culture icon. I know your name was like featured in movies and like people talk about you on TV shows and stuff. And so I think Akio is just wondering, like, what's that like? Is it just weird? Like, do you enjoy it?

I will be honest that I caught up with the pop culture stuff pretty late, but the pandemic really brought me to watch TV shows and also like university time as well. I started binge watching like Big Bang Theory and other shows. It's a big source of procrastination. I have seen like my name being mentioned in a few shows,

especially, I think in Succession. I was just watching it randomly. And then they mentioned my name. And I'm like, that's pretty awkward. I don't know how to react to that. But sometimes, you know, it's fun to see that. It's a bit of a surprise, but it's fun to see that. But what really makes me happy is the support that I receive from people from all around the world.

They are supporting my organization, Malana Fund, through which we support and advocate for girls' education. They are supporting us through following our newsletter. They're following my personal journey and my personal opinions and thoughts through my bulletin platform, Podium. So I'm really happy to see that. And I really appreciate the support that people have given to me. That's amazing. And so another one of our community members, Victor asks, during your recent keynote at Education Summit, you said it's easier to feel distant from current crises around the world, like those affecting refugees. And so Victor's asking, what can we

do to shake ourselves from the stupor, especially when the media might not be helping us? How can we reframe things to become more effective supporters? Because there's so many people who need our help, who are just people just like us, but sometimes things can feel so far away. Any ideas for how we can feel closer and really take more action? That's a great question. There are definitely ways in which you can support That's a great question. There are definitely ways in which you can support refugees and you can bring attention to other causes that you believe in. One of our biggest power is voting and then those who we vote, holding them accountable. And it's writing to them, it's putting more pressure on them and asking them what are they doing for refugees for other issues and you know young people writing a letter to their their local politicians and also participating in in those

local organizations and also in the international organizations like supporting their causes raising awareness so i think you know those local led activism can be really powerful. And at Malala Fund, the way we do projects is we support local activists in 10 countries, including Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Brazil, Ethiopia. And these are activists who are figuring out what are the barriers that prevent girls from schools. And it could be like lack of female teachers, or it could be sanitation, it could be infrastructure, or it could be the lack of other facilities.

And when you address those specific issues, you can help many more girls to enroll into schools. And sometimes there's policy changes that you need to make that can enroll more girls into schools. In Nigeria, for instance, our education activists in the state of Kaduna passed a legislation that helped them to reduce the hidden fees that students had to face in schools from like covering uniform or other school stationery, books, etc. That impacted girls more because families were less likely to cover these extra costs for their girls.

And even in this COVID time, they were able to do classes through radios, through televisions, through mobile apps to ensure that even if girls can't be in school, they can still learn from home so that these girls do not miss out on their education. So I think it's supporting these local activists, supporting local organizations. it can really help us to bring more impact and that positive change in our communities and in communities around the world. When we come back from the break, Malala will share more of her tips on advocating for change

and how you can begin to win over people who are deeply opposed to equality and justice, even if they happen to be in your very own family. The Happiness Lab will be right back. Even though we're doing this as a Silliman College Tea at Yale, because we're on Facebook Live, we're kind of all over the world. And someone in our Silliman community shared this with their friends community, which got to a fifth grade classroom in Tucson, Arizona. And so I want to share one of their questions, which is coming from a fifth grade student who's, you know, thinking about what

life must have been like for you when you were kind of being treated differently just because you're a woman. And so the question is, how did you feel when men in Pakistan thought less of you simply because you were a girl trying to get an education? How has that shaped you? And how do you see this shaping even women today who have to fight for education and girls today who have to fight for an education? I would share my personal story first. So when I was growing up, there were these gender stereotypes that were influencing my life already. And I was not the only woman or girl whose life was impacted. Women overall are impacted by these gender stereotypes. They are called lesser. They're told that they can't be leaders, they can't be activists, that they can't be better decision makers. And I was really lucky that my father believed in me. He just believed in this basic idea that men and women are all equal and why should they be discriminated based on their gender. And I always tell people that I started speaking out and I was able to raise my voice. But this could have been any other girl in Swat Valley.

What's different in my story is that my father did not stop me. There were so many other Malalas out there who could have raised their voices and who wanted to and who even had started, but their brothers, their fathers, their male family members stopped them from speaking out. So sometimes it's, you know, it's the small step of not stopping women. As my father says, don't clip women's wings. Allow women to go forward. It sometimes sometimes you know means they're giving them the space giving them the room to step forward don't stand in their way be their allies be their supporters uh you know i was lucky that my father and my brothers and there are other

men right now who are you know becoming advocates for women's rights and when they see women in their own community become leaders become um activists, it really gives them, you know, that role model. Yes, it is possible for women to be leaders, to be in sports and to be in science and to be inventors. You know, I know that this is not a problem, you know, just in one part of Pakistan. This is a global problem. So men do have a role to play. this is a global problem so men do have a role to play and i would ask men and boys to become allies of women may become allies of your sisters your mothers your wives you know your female colleagues and friends and uh whenever you see that there is something going wrong and you know

people are being sexist or they are discriminating against women, like do step up. Your voice can really be powerful because, you know, other men do listen to you. So when it comes from you, it can be pretty impactful. But that's a good question. Well, this one kind of builds on that. This is from a soon to be Yale student. But one of these students is asking how you kind of convince people to be allies or how you deal with people who have different, you know, perceptions than you. So if you meet somebody who disagrees with you, what can you do to open up conversation? You know, how do you change people's minds and get them to see the light? I would say this is this is not an easy question. And this is something that's on my mind all the time.

I think, you know, in my personal experience, things do change with time. And sometimes it's not a conversation that actually changes people's minds and perspective. It's the time that they spend with time. And sometimes it's not a conversation that actually changes people's minds and perspective. It's the time that they spend with you. It's the more experience that they have with you that can really change their perspective. Because as I mentioned, even our activism for girls' education was initially seen as an external idea, as a foreign idea. And with time, now that I am educated, that more and more girls are receiving their education and it doesn't make us like any different.

You know, we're still the same women. I'm really proud of my culture and my religion and I don't leave any of that behind. And I want to tell people that these ideas are universal and we should not really associate it with some sort of like a foreign idea. You can make equality and fairness as part of your own culture as well. And in fact, like your culture and your religion is also promoting these ideas. So I'll give two examples. One is of my father's cousin who had worked on our family tree.

And when my father's cousin showed that family tree to my dad, my dad wrote down my name. And his cousin was like really surprised because that family tree was full of men's names. It's not that we did not have women in our family, but that women were not recognized as part of that family bloodline. And he was quite shocked. Like, you know, why would you write a woman's name there? Like, you know, it's silly. But then like today, that cousin of my dad is so proud of me and he supports us and he believes why it's important to educate your daughters.

And the same was, you know, the case with me as well. Like one of my very close family members, he was asked by my dad to take me to this press conference and somehow like I needed a male companion to take me. And he was, you know, he was pretty frustrated and he complained to my dad that, you know, Malala should not appear in front of TV cameras and she should, you know, at least sit in the house

or at least she should cover her face. Like it's a shame to the family. And he was facing a lot of pressure from other people in the community. But my father stood up for me and he told him that it was none of his business and that I can make any decision for myself. But today that same family member is the biggest supporter of mine because they realize that education is sort of beyond these personal opinions. And it's something that not only benefits women and girls, but it benefits our communities as well. So these things do change with time, I think. And it's when people are exposed to more experiences, more opinions, it really helps them.

So it's good to like be open to more opinions and perspectives. And like I do that for myself as well. Sometimes I have this idea like we're the righteous ones and we are on the right path and whatever is slightly in disagreement with our opinions is sort of wrong. We should not have this approach at all. We should be always open to more and new ideas and try to understand that perspective. We may not fully agree with them, but sometimes we realize that, you know, we start with the same frustrations and then somehow reach to different conclusions. So it's quite important to understand, like, you know, what are the frustrations that other people are facing? So it's finding those commonalities, it's finding, you know, what can bring us together and say, like, you know, we agree,

yes, it's the same problem that we are talking about. So how can we address that? And I think that connects to another question that we just got, which is how we can kind of take part in this conversation without kind of doing it the wrong way. And so one Yale student asked, how do you suggest people from the global north, from elite institutions, like how can we get involved in advocacy for girls education without it being kind of colonialist or paternalistic right it's yucky to sort of think about you know people from the west going to liberate muslim women like these have yucky connotations and so you know how can well-intentioned students how can they help in a way that kind of doesn't have as much of a colonialist bad side, I guess? This is a good question. And I think there are ways in which, you know, we all can find a role for ourselves.

And like, even for me, we have an office in D.C. and an office in London, but also an office in Nigeria and Pakistan. But I know that I'm not exposed to the culture and the economy and the politics of every country. So I don't know how to fix the education crisis in Nigeria or in Brazil. I may have more experience in Pakistan, but not in other countries. And the best way to actually push for these changes is to support local activists. Those who are doing advocacy in those provinces and those who are doing advocacy on a

national level as well and also on a global level so supporting local NGOs smaller NGOs can be very helpful but then also like you have to remember that the criticism in itself is I think it's debatable because even if I start doing activism in Pakistan or in Swat, you know, it could be still called like, you know, a foreign idea or like a Western idea or a colonial idea, because there is value and there is significance in it to an extent, but also you need to remember that it could be

just exploited for the wrong reasons as well. So we should not be so afraid to step in and do our bit and ensure that we are communicating and engaging with the local community members, with the local NGOs, with the civil society, and they can best guide us. You know, they can tell you what are the gaps. We have another question that's come up a few times here, and it's actually one that I wanted to ask you too. I think, you know, one of the reasons your story is so literally unbelievable to us is, you know, how close you are to assassination at the hands of the Taliban.

It's awful for any of us to imagine. It's awful to have gone through. So my version of the question is sort of, you know, how do you come around to forgiveness and kind of dealing with the, you know, these people who harmed you? Is there a way that you frame it in a positive way that allows you to move on? Like, what advice do you have for people who are going through their own terrible things and need to find a way towards forgiveness or moving on? was that I had my last day of school. I was on my school bus going back home. And then there are these sort of mixed thoughts and stuff. And then like, I don't remember anything. I just could not figure out if it was a dream or like, what was I going through? And then I suddenly wake up in a hospital in the UK. And I see doctors and nurses around me. And I'm like, what's happening? And I couldn't speak because of tubing in my neck so it

was a like a difficult time and the story is in my book I am Malala so you can read more about it in that but when I realized that I had received so much support from people around the world I was shown these baskets of cards and letters from people and I just could not believe it I was in complete awe of the support that I had and I realized that that it was a second And I just could not believe it. I was in complete awe of the support that I had. And I realized that it was a second life. It was a chance that I survived. And this seems like a new life. It's given for a purpose. And that is to continue fighting for girls' education. And I realized that the best way to take revenge is to go and educate more and more girls. That's the best way to defeat the ideology of extremism. I'm not against any person. I'm not against people. I'm against the

ideology of extremism, of hatred, of intolerance. And we can defeat these ideologies by giving people safe quality and free education to ensure that they are in a place where they're open to ideas, they can seek more knowledge, they're not stuck in an extreme mind and ideology, and they can all take different roles in society and make this world a better place for all of us. So I believe that education is the best way. And we know that when women and girls are educated there are so many advantages we live in a in a much better world when we have educated women and girls with us so you know that is that is my fight now and i have been doing that and i keep working harder and harder each and every time to ensure that i see that day when all girls can go to school safely.

And I hope that countries realize that there is a sense of emergency emerging right now for girls' education, especially when we look at the crisis, when we look at what's happening in Afghanistan, when we look at the fact that financing for education has been stagnant. So I hope that we see more attention towards this issue. I think there's one more question that I would like to answer in the comments and which is what's my favorite ice cream flavor? Yeah, so that's vanilla ice cream. It's quite basic, but I like it. Next time we get you on Yale's actual campus, I promise to take you to one of the best ice cream shops in the United States, I think,

but definitely in New Haven, Connecticut. Malala, thank you so much for giving us hope, for showing us the right path, for being such an inspiration to so many people here today. And thank you so much for taking your time out of your busy schedule to come here to Yale to chat with us. So Happiness Lab listeners, I hope my conversation with Malala has inspired you as much as it's inspired me. When you're faced with adversity, ask yourself, what can this teach me? How can I grow from all this? And remember that in those moments when you're hesitant to take a break from all your hard work, remember that it's important to take time to unwind. Even amazing people like Malala find time to watch some Ted Lasso.

Thanks for listening. To hear more tips and tricks on happiness, be sure to tune in for the next episode of The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab is co-written and produced by Ryan Dilley, Emily Ann Vaughn, and Courtney Guarino. Our original music was composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing, and mastering by Evan Viola. Special thanks to Mia LaBelle, Heather Fane, John Schnarz, Carly Migliore, Christina Sullivan,

Brant Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and me, Dr. Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.