The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos - Simple Ways to Feel Great Every Day - with Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

Medical doctors are waking up to the importance of happiness, partly prompted by the work of people like Rangan Chatterjee. Dr Chatterjee is Professor of Health Education and Communication, the host of the hit podcast 'Feel Better, Live More' and author of five best-selling books including Happy Mind, Happy Life: 10 Simple Ways to Feel Great Every Day. Rangan sat down with Dr Laurie Santos at the 2024 World Happiness Summit to discuss his life and work - and explain why physicians like him are joining the fight to make happiness a health priority.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pushkin. all the people working hard to put things right. These days, there are so many people in government, in medicine, in academia, and in the media trying to draw attention to the importance of well-being that they can easily fill a whole conference center. The World Happiness Summit, WAHASU for short, has been bringing experts together since 2016 to meet, swap ideas, and give talks to the public. This year's summit was in London,

and I went along so I could record a live episode of this show with a total rock star of the British happiness community. Welcome to the Wahasu live version of the Happiness Lab! I am super excited to introduce my guest, Dr. Rangan Chatterjee. Dr. Chatterjee is professor of health education and communication, the host of the Feel Better Live More podcast, which is the most listened to health podcast in Europe. He's also the author of five best-selling books, including his most recent, Happy Mind, Happy Life, 10 Simple Ways to Feel Great Every Day. And today we're

going to be talking about why medical doctors need to pay even more attention to happiness. Wahasu audience, are you all interested in medical doctors paying more attention to happiness? Yes. So Rangan, you've long been an advocate of the importance of all kinds of healthy practices, but lately in your most recent book, you've been making the claim that medical professionals also have to pay attention to something else, something that historically doctors haven't paid much attention to, which is people's happiness. Why is a happy life important for a healthy life?

So I've been practicing now for over two decades. So during that time, I've seen tens of thousands of patients, and it's very clear to me, and it's very clear in the research, that about 80 to 90 percent of what a doctor like me is going to see in any given day is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles. Now, let me be really clear with that. I am not putting blame on anybody. Okay, modern life is tough, it's very stressful. And so, if you start off with the belief and the view that 80 to 90% of our medical problems

are in some way related to the way we're living our lives, the next logical step is to go, okay, well, we need to educate our patients on what those things are that they can then change. Food, movement, sleep, stress reduction, the things that I call the four pillars of health. And for many years, I've been talking about that in public, and I think that's incredibly useful. But for the last few years, I've been wondering, is that really the root cause, or is there something even higher than that? And that's what led me to happiness because I realized that actually for many people, their lifestyle behaviors, they weren't necessarily the root cause. They were a cause of sorts,

but they were a downstream consequence of their moods, of the way they approached the world, of the state of their lives, of their happiness. So I think most people will intuitively understand that happier people will naturally make better lifestyle choices. You're not going to dive headfirst into a tub of ice cream in the evening, generally speaking, if you feel pretty content with life. Usually, for most people, that's a way of managing stress or internal discomfort or loneliness. So I found that we can tell patients about these lifestyle choices, but if those lifestyle choices are their way of coping with the stress in their life, they're never going to change their behavior unless I

help them change their stress, for example. So that's one way of answering your question. But actually, if you go into the research, there seems to be this link between happiness and health that goes beyond these lifestyle behaviors. And actually, Laurie, when you came onto my podcast maybe two or three years ago, you shared with me a really powerful study that made a real impact on me, which was that study where, I think it was psychologists who did it, when they took people into a laboratory and they injected rhinovirus up their nostrils. Pretty pleasant study, right? Rhinovirus is the bug that causes the common colds. Now, what was interesting about this study is that they could see quite clearly an association between your mood and whether you got sick from the virus. So basically,

as Laurie told me on my show, the group who were in the not so positive mood category, right, got sick three times as much, right? So that's pretty remarkable. So why does a doctor then need to know that? Well, if we're not thinking about mood and well-being and happiness, well, that study is showing a pretty compelling association between your immune system function and your happiness. So more and more, I've been led down to the belief that actually we need as doctors to be talking about happiness, A, because it directly affects your lifestyle choices, but beyond that, independently of that, and there's more research to support that, happiness is associated with better health.

And so as we think about happiness being associated with better health, I think as the nerds that we are, we also have to think about our definition of happiness. And there are lots of different definitions of happiness out there in the literature. You use a sort of three-prong approach in your book, which I really quite like. So talk to me about the sort of three parts of happiness as you think of it. Yeah, so it took me over six months to try and figure out what I call the code to happiness. Now, of course, many people have got their models for approaching happiness. For me, as a doctor, I'm always thinking about what's practical. We can talk about big ideas, but how does that busy person with a busy life actually put this into practice?

So I was trying to develop a model that really underpins this idea that happiness is a skill. Happiness is a skill that you can get better at if you know how to cultivate it. And so the best way I could explain it to people was with the core happiness stool. So it's basically a three-legged stool, and each of the legs is an ingredient of happiness. So each one in isolation is going to help, but each one in isolation is not enough in and of itself. So the three-legged stool of happiness, the way I see it, is composed of alignment, contentment, and control. So alignment is basically about when the person you are inside and the person who you are being out there in the world are one and the same. So when your inner values and your external

actions start to line up more and more, that's alignment. The next leg is contentment. So what are those things in life that give you a sense of peace, a sense of calm, an inner sense of contentment? That's the leg of contentment. And the final leg, which I think is even more important today if we think about the state of the world and what we might be exposed to if we go online or look at the news, for example. The third leg of the stool is control. Now, I thought long and hard about this word because it's not about controlling the world. It's about giving yourself a sense of control. And it's actually subtly different. What are the things you can do

in life that give you that sense of control? We know from the research that people who have a strong sense of control over their lives, they're happier, they're healthier, they do better at work, they earn more money, they have better social relationships. So for me, the whole book is basically about practical things that work on one, two, or three of those legs off the stool. So you're not directly working on happiness, you're doing something, hopefully each day, that works on alignment, contentment, and control, and the side effect of that is you're going to feel happier more often. And I think most people want to feel happier more often. One of the things I love about your book

is that you don't just stop with this definition of happiness. You really try to come up with these 10 practical domains in which people can apply different strategies to start getting happier. And one of the ones that you start with is trying to get past what you call the want brain. What is the want brain? And how do we get it wrong?

And can I just say the reason why everything I do is so practical focused is if you think about my life, you know, for many years it's been seeing patients. So I can't just say to them, hey, look, there's a strong link between happiness and health. Okay. That was going to help your immune system function. I'll see you in a month's time. No, no. I mean, I have to be able to tell them and explain something, but then I have to, for me, I feel I have to give them something that they can go and develop and cultivate and start to feel it for themselves. So that's why I'm always so practically focused. But the one brain, okay, so the one brain is that part of your brain that evolved a long time ago, many thousands of years ago, that makes you think you have to compete.

There is limited resources. I have to get what's mine. It convinces you that a promotion, a better salary, a nicer phone, a piece of chocolate, although you may disagree with that, but it convinces you that that's going to make you happier. And actually, for most of those things, it's actually a myth. And we know that because there's a lot of research showing us that. There's some research where they phone people up at various parts of the day after they've engaged in certain activities, and we find that actually when people have just bought something online, or they've had a bit of chocolate, or they're getting seduced by the modern myth of success, which often means in the workplace that people feel less motivated, they feel less confident, and they feel depressed. But the one brain

is very, very powerful. And I think we're living in a time where society and culture very much prioritizes the one brain. So many of us get sucked into this trap that more work, more promotion, more Instagram followers, more whatever is going to make us happy. And by and large, in most cases, if you identify that with your happiness, it's going to be a disappointment. And I can tell you, I started the book with a very, I think it's a very powerful story of my dad's. So my dad came to the UK in 1962 from India for a better life. And dad faced all kinds of discrimination and all kinds of things that many immigrant families of that time will have

experienced. But basically for 30 years, my dad worked four nights a week, right? So he worked in the day as a consultant medical doctor at Manchester Royal Infirmary. Dad would come home every night, he would shave, he'd have his dinner, and then a car would pick him up at 7pm and dad would be out doing GP house course all night. He'd come back at 7am, shave, mum would give him breakfast, and he'd drive for 30 minutes back into Manchester and work all day. So for 30 years, my dad only slept for three nights a week, right? And at 57, my dad gets lupus. He gets chronic kidney failure, and he's on a dialysis machine for 15 years. And my dad died almost 11 years ago now. And I'm convinced that this wants brain, that this belief

that this want brain, that this belief that success and more money is going to make you happier and the people around you happier, I'm convinced that's why my dad got sick and that's why he's no longer here. I mean, it's such a powerful story. Of course, the problem is it's so hard to shut off the want brain from the like basic physical wants of like ooh chocolate to ooh promotion ooh more money um what are some strategies we can use to tackle the want brain you have an exercise that I think we might even be able to try out quickly here with this audience right yeah I mean one of my favorite exercises is in chapter one of the book it's called write your own happy ending and it's so simple but I think if you take nothing else from our conversation, but just do this exercise and maybe share it with someone in your family or someone

who's sitting next to you later on, I honestly believe it will change the trajectory of the next few weeks and months of your life. And it's so, so simple, right? So the first stage is, and yes, as Laurie says, try and imagine it and do it now if you can. Imagine you're on your deathbed, right? Now look back on your life and ask yourself, what are three things you would want to have done or spent time on? Right, so you think about that, okay? And then the second part of the exercise is you bring it into the present day and go, okay, what three happiness habits do I need to do each week that will give me the happy ending I've just defined I want?

It is deceptively simple, right? So for me, at the end of my life, I will want to have spent quality time with my family and friends, like everyone else. I will want to have done something that impacts the people around me in a positive way. And I will want to have spent time or have had time to pursue things that I'm passionate about. So for me, my three weekly happiness habits are, and these are written up on my fridge at home, so I see them every day just on a piece of paper, nothing fancy, very low-tech, scrap piece of paper and a pencil, right? I specify I want five meals

a week with my wife and my two kids where I'm completely undistracted. Okay? It may not work for you, that works for me. I need to record one episode of my podcast each week, which I've been doing for six and a half years, because I know that will have an impact on the world around me. And if I've had time each week to either go for a long walk in nature, play my guitar, write some songs, play snooker with my son whatever it might be I know I've had time to pursue my passions now why that's such a powerful exercise it doesn't necessarily remove the want brain right it doesn't mean I don't also get seduced into these belief systems that the culture will kind of feed into you but it means that I'm intentionally focusing on the things

that are important every single week. Now, those things don't take long, right? It doesn't mean that my email inbox won't overflow, and I might get stressed about that. But the problem today, in my view, is that we fit in the important things when everything else is done. But the problem is today, everything else is never done. There's always something else. There's always another email to answer, another person to get back to, another WhatsApp message group to reply to, right?

And so if you don't intentionally put in your diary the things that are important for your happiness, I think your happiness is going to wither away. And it's a simple exercise, but it's very, very effective. I do it myself, and I've done it for years with my patients, and they really, really like it. I think it's so powerful, too, because what this exercise causes you to realize is that, like, you're never going to have time to get everything done. Like, you're going to have a bunch of balls

in the air, and a lot of those balls are going to fall. But the key is to make sure the right balls fall. And our instinct is never that we let the email ball fall, because it's, like, you know, pinging in our phones, in our pockets. But this sort of forces us to say, there's a reason I'm not answering my email and it's because I'm having dinner with my kids. Yeah. And I often, I'm the worst person or one of the worst people in the world at getting back to emails. But you know what? I've made peace with that. I'm okay with that because me not getting back to emails generally means I'm spending time with my children and my wife. And so I've got very clear that that's important. Now, here's the thing about that deathbed exercise, right? We all think we're different and we all have individual likes

and needs and wants. And yes, of course, there's variability. But on one level, we're not that different. You know, palliative care nurses who have sat with dying people, like Bronnie Ware, who wrote the book, The Five Regrets of the Dying, who I had a beautiful conversation with last year when she was in London on my podcast. She explains that after eight years of sitting with dying people, what are the things that they say? And they all say the same things. I wish I hadn't worked so hard. I wish I'd spent more time with my friends and family. I wish I'd lived my life and not the life that other people expected of me. So for me, these things aren't just cute Instagram memes

which go viral, right? They don't have to be. We can convert it into action. We can use it as a way of thinking, I don't want to wait until my deathbed to learn what's important, right? And here's the thing, I did mention my dad. One thing I will say though, which I think is really important, and I've reflected on this since I wrote the book and shared the story of my dad, one thing I can't say is that he made the wrong choices. And I'll tell

you why I can't say that. If my dad was here today, one of the questions I'd love to ask him is, dad, was it worth it? Because you know what, for him, coming from India, where he didn't feel there was much opportunity, he may go to me, and I suspect he would actually. And this is where my view has evolved since I wrote Happy Mind, Happy Life. I think my dad was alive today. He may say, hey, son, listen, it was totally worth it. I'd do it all again because look how I've set you up with a great education. Look what impact you're having on the world. Look what your brother's doing. And I'm now sort of seeing the other side and going, actually, for him, maybe it was worth it.

But the key and the beauty of this exercise is you can figure out what's worth it for you, which is so powerful. And so in our second tip from your book, we're going to explore a practice that you find most important. But unfortunately, we have run out of time. And that means that all of you can only figure out Rangan's second most important thing if you listen to the Happiness Lab podcast. Can we get a big round of applause for Dr. Rangan? That's right. Rangan and I only had about 20 minutes on stage, and then we had to make way for some other great speakers. But kindly, the World Happiness Summit folks set us up in an empty auditorium next door

so we could continue our conversation, which is coming up right after this quick break. this quick break. So Rangan, we're now done our conversation at Wahasu in front of that big, amazing audience. And now we are in a different auditorium that might sound a little bit echoey because there's nobody in here. We're sitting out here looking at like a hundred empty seats, which is a little strange, but. Yeah. And we were just getting going, weren't we? I know. Like there was a real energy in there in the room and now we've got to recreate that for the second time, but... Which is a good way to jump to your second tip that we were just about to talk about before,

which is this idea that we need to treat ourself with kindness and treat ourself with respect, even when the situation like this one might be a little bit tricky. And one of the reasons I loved your book so much is that you're really candid about the fact that this is something that you have struggled with be a little bit tricky. And one of the reasons I loved your book so much is that you're really candid about the fact that this is something that you have struggled with yourself a little bit. Yeah, it's interesting, Laurie,

that I mentioned the three legs of the stool, right? And I mentioned alignment and the importance of living in a way that is aligned with who we really are. And for this book, actually, it's the most vulnerable I've ever been to the point where my wife, who never reads any of my books until the final stages, when she read it, she actually said, hey, Rangan, are you sure you want to put all of this in your book? And I think I've been on this happiness journey myself, and I feel that it is

important, as long as I'm comfortable with it which I am to share the things or some of the things that maybe I previously wouldn't have shared because it's kind of who I am it's led to who I am today and I think that negative inner voice is one of those things that I think I've had a pretty vicious inner voice for much of my life I never felt good enough growing up. You know, there's two sides to every story. It's definitely not about blame. But this is actually not that uncommon in immigrant families,

certainly here in the UK, I would say. I can only speak for that. But if I came home from school when I was six or seven with 19 out of 20, it was never well done. It was always, what did you get wrong? Why didn't you get 20? If I ever came back and I was second in the class, mum and dad would always ask, well, who came top? How many points lower were you? How can you come top next time? And I didn't realise until about 10 years ago what an impact that has had on me in my life because I never felt fully loved for who I was. Now, I'm not blaming my parents. They were doing the best that they could. And for them, as

immigrants to the UK, their belief system is we face a lot of struggle and discrimination. If my child can be a straight-A student and get a really good job like a doctor or a lawyer, they're not going to have any problems. The problem is that little Rangan developed the belief at a young age that I'm not good enough unless I'm number one. And for all my success, and we spoke about the want brain earlier, I've had more success than I could have dreamt of as a child. But that success is not why I'm sitting with you here today, Laurie, as happy and contented as I've ever been. In fact, that success has taught me that success doesn't make you happy.

For me, at least, it didn't make me happy. What makes me happy is when I live in harmony with who I am, when I have a meaningful relationship with my wife, when I get time each week to spend quality time with my children. You know, I live five minutes away from my mother. I help to look after and care for her. These are the things that actually make me happy. So how does that fit in with being kind to yourself?

Well, when you don't feel like you're good enough, you will develop certain traits to compensate. So I have been very competitive for much of my life. A lot of my best friends will tell you, Rongan's one of the most competitive people I know. But you know what? I'm not anymore. Because that competitiveness was an adaptation.

If you only feel that you get love when you're top of the tree, while developing the behavioral traits of competitiveness is a genius adaptation because it drives you to do more and to achieve more. But as I've made peace with my upbringing, I've done a lot of, for want of a better term, inner work, I feel very at peace with who I am. I like the person who I am today. So I no longer need the trait of competitiveness. So I believe that you can actually change a huge part of who you are, not everything. If you go in and do the work, maybe with a healthcare professional or a therapist.

And today my inner voice is really, really kind, but it wasn't. And it's really important for happiness, Laurie, because not just happiness. But health too, right? Yeah, it's really important for happiness and health, right? So Kristen Neff has done a lot of research, Professor Kristen Neff on self-compassion, and her research has shown a really strong link between self-compassion and physical health.

There's other research that shows that people who are more compassionate to themselves, not only are they kinder to others, but their immune system works better, they age more slowly, and they're better able to stick to healthy lifestyle habits. Right, so self-compassion is massive, and we don't realize that if we call ourselves a loser, massive and we don't realize that if we call ourselves a loser and I used to like if I wasn't doing well I'd I mean I share this in the book it's in fact this is one of the stories my wife said are you sure you want to share this I can remember at university in Edinburgh at medical school if on a Sunday afternoon we were at a local pool hall just me and my buddies you know

playing pool if I was losing, now I consider myself a decent player. If I was ever losing to one of my friends, sometimes I'd go into the restroom. I'd look at myself in the mirror, give myself a little slap and say, come on, you loser, get yourself sorted, right? That's what I would do. And you're not like a competitive billiards player. This is like you and your mates. Yeah, I'm not a professional, right? And it would often motivate me to go back and sort my game out.

And usually I would then go on to win. But when writing this book, what I realized, Laurie, is that I didn't enjoy winning. The pain of losing is what I was trying to avoid. So I didn't feel elated when I'd won. I was relieved that I hadn't feel elated when I'd won. I was relieved that I hadn't lost. And that's pretty dark. Yeah. I mean, but this is a general feature of the want

brain, right? Like when the want brain gets what it wants, it's usually not very happy or as happy as you thought. It's usually not satisfied. You just like want something else immediately. And the pressure that that can put on our mindset and our self-talk is just incredible. And so I'm curious kind of how you got out of this sort of really self-critical voice. But I also want you to talk about the specific practice you recommend in the book, because as usual, you have this like incredibly straightforward, practical kind of strategy that folks can engage in. And so talk maybe about kind of how you got out of things, but then also what you recommend for your patients. And I think it's important just to say that when you call yourself a loser in your head, that is not neutral. It's not just something you're saying to yourself.

When I spoke to Professor Krista Neff on my podcast, she said to me that, and she showed me research, that when you talk negatively to yourself, you elevate levels of the stress hormone cortisol. negatively to yourself, you elevate levels of the stress hormone cortisol. So you are literally stressing yourself out with that negative self-talk. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. They think, oh, I'm just saying it to myself. It doesn't matter. No, it absolutely matters because that's the start of all kinds of negative emotions like guilt and shame and all kinds of things which spiral and lead us to make poor choices in our life. And negative health consequences. I mean, one of my favorite bits of Neff's research is that she looks at people who are more self-compassionate versus less in their level of healthy eating. And she finds that people who are more self-compassionate

can make healthier choices in terms of what they're eating. And the cortisol story makes total sense there, right? If you're flooding your brain with cortisol, you're like, I need snack food. I need like, you know, comfort food. I feel terrible. And what I found is that lifestyle change for me these days is a lot easier than it used to be because I'm not trying to overcome something. Because I'm kind to myself these days and compassionate to myself. Well, a compassionate person, someone who truly likes themselves and likes to be compassionate to themselves, then probably not going to binge eat sugar as much, right? And I'm not saying that to be critical to anyone, but we have to understand that self-compassion is a critical ingredient for health and happiness. So how have I done it? Well, there's been a combination of different ways.

Yes, I have done a bit of therapy, something called IFS, internal family systems, which for me was incredibly helpful. But I know that therapy is not either available or accessible to everybody for all kinds of issues. Cost, you know, what you have available to you in your area. And I don't think you necessarily need it. You can do a lot even without it and so just being aware and catching yourself when you have a negative voice I think is really useful. For me

having children has been really really helpful because what a lot of parents I think need to hear is that if you have a negative voice that you say out loud in front of your children, oh, stupid me, oh, I can't do anything right, well, what voice do you think they're going to develop? So for me, having children was a really, it was a huge motivating factor to catch myself and not do it in front of the children. Doesn't mean it's good to do it away from them, but initially I didn't want to do it in front of them because I didn't want them to pick it up. For much of my life, until the last five or six years, I don't think I was that happy. I think I thought more, I need to compete, I need to do better. That's going to make me happy. But I got all that and it didn't. That's when I stopped

looking outside and I started to turn the ship around to look internally and go, ah, you need to do some work here. That's what's going to make you happy. So one of the practices in the book that I really like, that is really practical for people, is to write themselves a love letter. Now, to a British audience, I'm not sure there's anything more uncomfortable than saying something like that. Maybe it goes down easier in America. I don't know. I think not, unfortunately. But the point of it is, can you, in fact, let's make it easy. Can you write down on a piece of paper or in your journal, five things you like about yourself? And one of the things I love about the suggestion in your book is you say, if you can't think of those five things, pretend you're

your best friend, pretend you're your dog,end you're someone who really cares about you. What would they say about you? Yeah, pretend you're that teacher who you had in high school that was awesome for you. What would they say about you? Start there because you're opening the door to self-compassion. It can be that easy.

Now, if you can't do five, but you can only think of one, start with one, right? And maybe over the next few days, see if you can build up to two or three. And look, what does the research say? There are some really good research showing that for seven days in a row, if you write yourself a compassionate letter, a love letter, let's say, right? Or just a letter where you say nice things about yourself, three months later, those researchers can still measure

improvements in your happiness and your subjective well-being. I mean, this stuff, what I love about it is it's simple, it doesn't cost any money, and it can have a real impact. Now, Laurie, if anyone who's listening to this right now is pushing back a little bit and going, I'm not writing myself a love letter, I would say, okay, I hear you. But if you're pushing back, it's probably a very good sign that self-compassion is something you need to work on. And I would just say, like with anything, start small. And this is, you know, something that you obviously as a medical doctor know really well. We assume like, oh, we're fixing our traits. If I'm self-critical, I'll just be self-critical forever. But like our brains have neuroplasticity, right?

You know, what fires together, wires together, right? The more you do these activities, the more likely it is that it's going to become a habit that you can pick up. So this writing this love letter might seem kind of cheesy in your journal some random Thursday night, you know, do that every night. But then naturally when you're playing pool,

it will just be the talk that you bring up it just becomes more of a habit you bring up something really interesting first of all what I've realized in life is that we get good at what we practice if you practice stress every day you get pretty good at feeling stressed if you practice negative self-talk every day you get really good at talking down to yourself if you practice self-compassion every day, you get really good at talking down to yourself. If you practice self-compassion every day or gratitude every day, you get really good at those things. And it's interesting, just to tie the loop with having children, I remember a few years ago, I was actually playing pool or snooker with my son, who at the time was about eight or nine. And I remember this really well,

I fell into an old pattern, Not as bad as it was at university, but not quite as compassionate as I would have liked to have been. And it wasn't that bad. I think I missed a shot. And I said something like, oh, you could have done better. You should have made that shot. And my son said to me, daddy, don't talk to yourself like that. And it was so powerful because A, it helped catch me. And that wasn't that bad, honestly, compared to the past. That was good. But I thought, this is awesome. Like, I hope my wife and I have brought him up in such a way that he is compassionate to himself. And he's heard me say something. He said, no, that's not nice, daddy. Don't talk to yourself

like that. And it was a really special moment for me, A, for me, but also for what I hope that I'm teaching him. Rangan is so open and honest about how he's had to change many of his habits to improve his happiness. But there's one strategy above all others that he credits with making his daily life better. He'll share what that is when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment. I often say that social interaction is the key to happiness, but you and I both know that people can kind of suck. They can make us angry or even make us feel disappointed. Dr. Rangan Chatterjee says that the biggest breakthrough in his happiness journey

was to change how he dealt with these tricky interactions. It can be done, he says, by exercising our friction. So what exactly does that involve? So we're social animals, right? It's very hard, I think, for us to be happy if our interactions with the world around us and the people around us are problematic. And a lot of the time we feel that we have to be a victim to the way the people around us act. If they're not nice, or they criticize me, or they say certain things. Well, I have every right to feel down

and depressed and unhappy. And that's what I used to think. But I've realized there is another option. The way you interact with people, the way you interact with the world, it comes down to you. You can interpret various situations in a multitude of different ways.

And once you understand that, you empower yourself. So just as you can go to the physical gym and do bicep curls and make your biceps bigger, well, seeking out friction for me is working out the social gym. You're using social friction with the world around you to make your social muscle stronger. And so how does this play out for me? Well, anytime something happens in my life that I don't like or I'm getting frustrated by, I think, well, what other story could I write here? Okay, instead of being a victim to this situation, how can I empower myself here? So let's say I'm driving somewhere and someone cuts me up on the road. Instead of saying, that guy shouldn't be driving,

they shouldn't have got their driving license, they need their eyes checked, I could have been hurt. Whatever story you want to create, hey, you're entitled to make whatever story you want. But if you have that sort of outlook, you're not going to be happy because you're going to generate emotional stress. You're not going to feel good. And that emotional stress will have to be neutralized at some point. And often we neutralize it with sugar, with more caffeine,

with alcohol, with whatever, you know, our habit of choice is. But we generated that emotional stress by the way we reacted. And once you understand that you don't need to react like that, you open up a new possibility of living. This is exactly what I've done. And when I really got this, Laurie, honestly, the conversation out of all conversations I've had on my podcast, which is 400 plus now, the one conversation I always come back to is the conversation I had with Edith Eger, who when I spoke to her was a 93-year-old lady. When she was 16, she got put on a train to Auschwitz concentration camp. Within two hours of getting there, both of her parents were murdered. Later that afternoon, she was asked to dance in front of the senior prison guards.

So she's in a concentration camp. Her parents had just been murdered. She's 16 years old. She has to dance for the entertainment of the senior prison guards. And there's many things I remember from that conversation. But she said to me, when I had to dance for them, she said to me, when I had to dance for them, I wasn't in Auschwitz. In my mind, I was in Budapest Opera House. I had a beautiful blue dress on, the orchestra was playing, there was a full house. And I remember Laurie thinking, you were able to do that in Auschwitz? Then in the conversation, she said, when I was in Auschwchwitz I started to see the prison guards as the prisoners they weren't free in their mind in my mind I was free and there was lots more but at the end this is the thing she said to me that I think about I would say on most days she said

Rangan I have lived in Auschwitz and I can tell you that the greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison you create inside your own mind. That phrase has changed my life because I realized that we all create these mental prisons every day by the way we interact. So that person who cuts me up on the road, instead of me being a victim to that situation, it's training myself to go, oh, I wonder what's going on in that person's life. Maybe that's a dad whose daughter was up last night with earache and they're exhausted and they think they're going to be late for work. And if they're late for work, they're going to get fired. You know, maybe they genuinely didn't see me. Whatever story you want. And here's the thing, Laurie, that I've realized. And you know,

you're a psychologist. I'm interested in your perspective on this. All situations I've realized have multiple realities. And I often talk to people about this through the lens of a couple's relationship. I say to people, let's say you're a husband and wife and you have a disagreement. I don't know if you ever know what that feels like. For people who experience that, right? I say, okay, well, you've had a disagreement stroke argument, what actually happens? Well, it kind of depends who you ask. If you ask the husband, he may give you a certain narrative and story about the situation

that may be completely different to what his wife says. And they can both be right for them. There was this really great study done by some psychologists where they found football fans and after the match they showed them the same incident, right? So they're sitting calmly watching the same incident, depending on which team you supported would determine what you think happened in that incident. And so the reason for me sharing that is you realise that every situation has multiple stories

that you can create about it I want to say in the book is create the story that empowers you not the story that makes you a victim so this can be a very simple practice that people do in the evening or once a week you reflect where did I get really frustrated by someone and make them like a really bad person? And one of the tools I recommend is you say, what stories you need to create to make that person a hero? And here's the truth of this situation the way I see it, Laurie. The truth of what actually happens, for your happiness, it doesn't really matter. For your happiness, it doesn't matter. And when you can let go of the need to be right and the need to know that person does have a driving license and they should have known that I was here. You never know. And I've

been doing this for over five years now. I've been slowly using every bit of social friction in my life. In the evening, I'd reflect and, okay, Ranga, what's a different story that you can write here? And yes, at first it was an effort. Like when you first learn to drive a car, if you're learning to drive a manual or what you guys call a stick, I think stick shift, right?

It's conscious, you're thinking, this is the clutch, this is the accelerator. But what over time, it's automatic. So now, genuinely speaking, most of the clutch, this is the accelerator, but what over time is automatic. So now, genuinely speaking, most of the time, unless I'm under really high levels of stress and or I'm sleep deprived, I will naturally write a happiness story. And it means that you feel good because you lead with compassion and curiosity. What's going on in that person's life? Does that all make sense? No, totally. And I think when you do that, you do a couple of curiosity. What's going on in that person's life? Does that all make sense? No, totally. And I think when you do that, you do a couple of things.

First, you end up often changing the other person's behavior. You imagine somebody cuts you off and you get to interact with them after. If you scream at them and stuff, you are going to turn them into a jerk. But if you say, are you okay? Like what happened? If you just show a tiny iota of compassion, often that will change someone's behavior. They will become the hero. They'll kind of want to behave in the way that you want but another reason i just love this technique so much is that when you realize not just that these kind of construals

or these ways of thinking about people these sort of hero stories matter for your happiness but when you also realize that you can get better at it that this is a social gym and you can train you can actually in a funny way become excited about these moments of social friction. 100%. Where you're like, oh, somebody cut me off. This is a wonderful, these are my reps today. Like I'm going to get extra reps. This is like leg day for social friction. And what does this do? If we think about the core happiness stool that I mentioned right at the start, alignment, contentment, and control, well, this does several things, but particularly this speaks to the control elements. If you feel that the social world is out of control, that people are acting in these sort of ways, and you are basically just like a puppet on a string that if someone acts

badly, you're going to have a bad day. Just think about that for a minute. You're putting your happiness in the hands of other people. Now I get get it. Of course, we want people to interact nicely with us. But you can't rely on that if you want to be happy. And another phrase which might help people here, if they're struggling to write a hero story for the other person, this phrase literally has changed my life. I think it's very powerful.

If I was that other person, I'd be acting in exactly the same way as them. And when you really, really get that phrase, what I'm saying is, if I was that other person and I had their childhoods and the bullying they experienced and the parents they had and the first boss at 16 who was toxic and took advantage of me, whatever it might be if I had their life I would see the world the way that they see it and I would be acting in the way that they're currently acting now I choose to go out in the world every day believing that everyone is doing the best that they can and if I were them I'd be acting in exactly the same way for me it's

been a transformative practice because it means that, you know what, you're curious, you're thinking, why does that person think differently to me? Why is that person being rude in that situation? What has gone on in their life? It doesn't mean you have to accept poor behavior, just to be really clear, but by not getting emotionally triggered, you feel better, you feel calmer and in control. And let's say it's your boss who sent you a curt email that you don't like and you think is inappropriate. If you get emotionally triggered, you may fire one back that you regret. You may have an unproductive interaction with your boss because you're so emotionally triggered by it.

But if you receive that email and you think, hmm, that's out of character for my boss. What's going on in his or her life? Oh, you know, maybe he's having marital problems. Maybe he's worried about his or her job. Whatever it might be, you just calm everything down. And then if you do have to talk to your boss, you're better able to make changes because you've not been emotionally triggered.

So that chapter, honestly, is one of my favorite chapters in the book because I would say it's had the most impact on me. I realized how much I'd picked up from my parents, how much I thought that my feelings were because of the people around me. And I didn't quite realize that actually I've got a lot more agency here than I previously thought. And so I can see this just in interacting with you, but I'm going to ask the question anyway. Has kind of recognizing the agency you have to change your happiness really changed your overall sense of joy and well-being? It seems like it just interacting with you. Yeah, look, honestly, and again, I would have been too insecure

to say this in the past because of how it might make people feel but I also understand that how people feel is up to them it's not that much to do with me so I'm going to share something with you that if people feel bad about it it says I think more about them and I say that with an open heart Laurie I'm not blaming or criticizing anyone I'm'm 46 years old. I've never felt happier and more content with who I am than I do today. And it's been like this for a couple of years now. I think writing this book on happiness has really helped me. You know, what do authors do? We often write the books that we need for ourselves, right? That was absolutely the case with me. I was on that journey and writing it. Yes, I know it's helped a lot of people, but it's also helped me. And what I'm passionate about,

what I've always been passionate about is we make health, we make happiness so complicated. We really don't need to. Like, I do think it's our birthright to be happy. I mean, if you look at a young child, a two or three-year-old, they're in the moment, they're playing with their toys or their siblings. That happiness, that presence, I think it is something that all of us can get, but we need to know what to work on. That's why I created this model of the three-legged stool, because I think it's, rather than thinking, what can I do to be happy? I think, well, what we need to do is,

what can I do to improve my alignment? What can I do to improve my contentment? What can I do that gives me a sense of control? And if I can do those things regularly, I'm going to be happier more often. I mean, it's so cool to hear how much it's changed your life, but I'm curious,

given your status as a doctor in the UK and so on like do you think that more books like this are going to change the medical field that is not just you but really like the way we think about physical health is going to incorporate happiness even more I'm an optimist okay so I believe it will and yes I get contacted a lot by the public, but I've had hundreds if not thousands of messages from medical doctors saying, wow, I had no idea about this stuff. Firstly, it's helping me with my own health and happiness. And it's also given me a toolkit to start introducing these conversations with my patients when appropriate. So I am optimistic. That's one of the reasons for writing the book. And there is a course that I teach to doctors called

Prescribing Lifestyle Medicine, and we train several thousand healthcare professionals now. And some of these concepts I'm bringing into the course because I think it's important, yes, for patients, but also for the doctors themselves, right? I shared a very personal story about my dad before, and that may seem extreme, you know, only sleeping three nights a week for 30 years. And yes, it is quite an extreme situation, but there is a version of that that I have seen regularly with so many patients. And that version is, I'm working too hard. I'm doing too much. I'm chasing this fictional idea of success. I already have enough. I've already got enough to feed my family, but I'm so used to pushing for the next thing that I keep going and I'm making

myself sick. So that write your own happy ending exercise, I think it's a damn good one for doctors to do on themselves. And I have used it with patients also because it helps them realize, oh, maybe I don't need to go for that promotion. Maybe I'm all right where I am. You know, I once had this teacher who was a patient of mine,

and I remember that he did this exercise, and then he came in a few weeks later to say, Doc, I've got it, I'm not going for the promotion. I said, okay, great. He said, yeah. I realised like I quite like my current position, like I earn enough, I can pay the mortgage, I get to spend time with my kids every weekend. If I take the promotion, yes, I'll get paid a little bit more, but actually I'll have to stay extra evenings in the week at school and I'll be in at weekends. And I thought, awesome. Wow. I wish I'd been able to make those decisions at that age. So, you know, I think it can help patients, but in terms of the medical profession, I think that it is inevitable at some point doctors will have to start understanding happiness and the skill of happiness better for themselves and for their patients. there's record rates of people leaving the profession. There was a study in the UK recently that says 88% of the UK workforce has experienced a form of burnout in the past two years. Now,

I don't know whether that stat is truly reflective of every workplace, but even if it isn't- It's still pretty bad. It's still pretty bad. What does it say about us as a society? So, you know, in answer to your question, yes, I do see there's a movement now with more doctors being interested. You know, we've just been on stage at the Happiness Summit and there's been several doctors

who've come up to me and spoken and saying, Dr. Chashi, I'm using your book with my patients already and I have been, it's making a real difference. So yes, I'm an optimist, but I do think the medical profession is starting to change. I wish it would change a bit sooner, a bit quicker, but I think it's going to happen.

Rangan, thank you so much for coming on the show and thank you so much for the great work that you're doing. Well, Laurie, it's been an honour to come on your wonderful podcast and you literally are a trailblazer in the world of happiness and you've inspired a lot of my work over the years. So it really is an honor to meet you in person and come on the show.

Thanks again. Yay! Our great audience, standing ovation. Dr. Rangan Chatterjee was just one of the inspiring people I met at the World Happiness Summit. I also spent a bunch of time with the event's founder, Karen Guggenheim, and I got to hear how a painful bereavement kick-started her mission to improve global happiness.

My husband caught the flu, which developed into a pneumonia, and within 10 days he was gone. Okay, well, I'm done. And I don't think that I was suicidal at all in that regard, but I think we can be alive dead just being numb to life. That's all to come next time on The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.