The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos - Sleep When You're Dead Tired (LIVE with Arianna Huffington)

Episode Date: January 27, 2020

Business leader Arianna Huffington nearly died because she didn't get enough sleep. She tells Dr Laurie Santos how this wake-up call changed her attitude to getting enough sack time and shares tips on how we can all prepare ourselves mentally and physically to enjoy the amount of sleep that is vital for us to be healthy, happy and effect in our waking hours.Recorded in front of a live audience at The Wing in New York's SoHo.For an even deeper dive into the research we talk about in the show visit happinesslab.fm Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pushkin. that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Gemini is because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too. Be more you this year and find them on Bumble.

When people find out I teach a class about happiness, they usually ask for the Clifton's version. What are my top 10 tips? Or top 5? Some people even go straight to the point. What's one thing I can change in order to be happier? When my Yale students ask me this,

my answer is always the same. Get some sleep. Having a solid 8 hours of shut-eye is the foundation on which all the other happiness habits rest. If you're exhausted, you aren't going to make progress on any of the topics we tackle in this podcast. So that's the simple answer. Happiness requires sleep. The problem is that getting the right amount isn't always easy. For me, there's always that one last email to send before bed, just to get it off my plate.

But then another arrives, and another. And before I know it, hours have passed, and the stresses of the day have just crept under the covers with me. In the final episode of our New Year mini-season, I'm going to talk about sleep with one of my favorite experts on the subject. She's not a scientist, but she's experienced firsthand what it's like to live on the edge of exhaustion. In her book, The Sleep Revolution, she explores how we got ourselves into this sleepless mess and what we can do to get out of it. I was so excited to chat with her about these sleep solutions that I decided to host our chat in front of a live studio audience at the Wings Soho Space in New York.

Who is the sleep guru? She is best-selling author, columnist, and founding CEO of the well-being giant Thrive Global, Ariana Huffington. So join me and Ariana in this finale episode of The Happiness Lab 2020. So I wanted to start at the beginning with your story, Ariana, because you learned about the power of sleep firsthand with a pretty scary wake-up call. So I want to set the stage. So tell me what your life was like before that big wake-up call. My life before my wake-up call, which happened in 2007, in the spring of 2007, was filled with sleep deprivation.

spring of 2007 was filled with sleep deprivation. I was a divorced mother of two teenage daughters and had founded the Huffington Post two years earlier. And I had bought into the collective delusion that in order to be super mom and super founder, I just had to burn out. And that was just the price you pay for success. But worse than that, if you had asked me that morning, how are you, Arianna, I would have said fine. And that's one of the saddest things because I had forgotten what it really is to be fine and what it is to be really recharged and fully engaged in your life. So I had actually returned from doing an early morning show on CNN and went to get a sweater because I was feeling cold and I fell. I collapsed. I hit my head on my desk, broke my cheekbone. When you suddenly collapse, they don't know what's wrong with you. So you go from echocardiogram to test for brain tumors, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, doctor's waiting rooms are a great place to reflect on your life.

And at the end of it, you know, literally after after all these tests i had this amazing kind of philosophical doctor who said to me i have all the results and what you have is civilization's disease burnout and he said i'm sorry to tell you that there is nothing the medical profession can do for you. You have to change the way you live, which was very profound because a lot of doctors still think there is a drug for every problem. Oh, you can't sleep? Well, just take Ambien. No, no, the problem is not that. The problem is that I don't prioritize it. So he actually took the time and had the wisdom to go deeper. Looking back, it was kind of a total gift. It stopped me. It got me reflecting on my life, on what I was doing. And because I'm a bit of a research nerd. It also got me looking at the fact that all around the world,

hundreds of millions of people were burnt out, that this was not an individual problem. It was a collective problem. So talk about some of the broad changes you made and then specifically about sleep. Well, the first change I made, being always the editor, was to bring all these topics into the Huffington Post. So suddenly the Huffington Post, which was a political site, started covering sleep. And we launched a dedicated sleep section in 2007. And I remember a conversation at the Huffington Post board with a lot of complaints from board members saying that they thought this was not serious. It was a trivial topic.

And why was the Huffington Post covering it? It turned out to be actually the best thing that could have happened to the Huffington Post because by the time I left in 2016, we had over 60% of our traffic coming from non-political issues. In my personal life, I really began to prioritize sleep. We have been treating sleep as something negotiable, something optional, or worse, something that really dedicated, ambitious people didn't really have to give in to.

You know, of course, we have all the sayings in our culture, right? I'll sleep when I'm dead. John Bon Jovi used to live in my apartment building here in Soho. And I said to him one day, I would love you to redo this song. Change the words to say, I'll sleep when I'm tired. The other thing, of course, that science makes very clear is that you'll be dead a lot faster. I remember going to dinner with a guy recently who bragged that he had only gotten four hours sleep the night before. And I

remember thinking, but not saying, you know what, if you had gotten five, this dinner would have been a lot more interesting. But I think the problem with this, I mean, the scary thing about this culture is that people believe it's a badge of honor. I mean, one of the problems with sleep is that we're not getting it, but another is that we believe it's okay not to get it. And just to kind of get a sense of that, I just want to see the sleep crisis that we might be dealing with in this room. So how many of you would say that you're not experiencing any form of sleep crisis? Like in the last two months, you've never felt tired. Oh, that's pretty good. Awesome. All right. So how many of you would say that in the last two

months you've occasionally felt tired? And how many of you are feeling like you self-report being tired a lot? That's great. You're in the right place. Yeah. We're preaching to the choir a little bit, but we definitely got more clapping on the kind of crisis type. So, I mean, talk to me about the level of this crisis. Like how, how bad is this right now? There is a scientific consensus that unless you have a genetic mutation and about one and a half percent of the population does, the vast majority of us need seven to nine hours to be completely recharged. Where you are in the seven to nine hour spectrum is individual. I'm an eight hour girl and 95% of the time I get it because I prioritize it. You may be a seven hour girl or boy or a nine hour, but you're somewhere there if you're going to be fully recharged. The consequences of not getting

enough sleep are so huge and monumental. You know, starting with our health, a greater likelihood of diabetes, of heart disease, of high stress levels, of Alzheimer's. I mean, that is like the latest amazing data on the connection between cognitive decline and sleep deprivation. It doesn't make any rational sense not to prioritize sleep. And what's amazing is it's not just our physical health. In your book, you talk a lot about the mental health problems that come from not sleeping at all. Well, absolutely. And you know, there's such a clear connection between sleep deprivation and depression and anxiety, which is why I'm so excited about the movement to start school later,

I'm so excited about the movement to start school later, which is absolutely essential. Kids go to school exhausted. They don't pay attention. They're classified as ADD. They are put on medication. And it's that vicious cycle, which is completely unnecessary if kids show up at school completely recharged. So where do you think this mistaken notion comes from? How did we get so off track with this? I trace it back to the Industrial Revolution.

Because it was during the Industrial Revolution when we started revering machines. And of course, the goal with a machine is to minimize downtime. I met someone here from Salesforce and proudly proclaims that I have 99.999% uptime. That is fantastic for software. But for the human operating system, But for the human operating system, downtime is not a bug. It's a feature. And, you know, if you go back to myths of creation, you know, every myth of creation has God or a goddess creating the universe in six days and then taking the seventh day off.

You know, clearly God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. She didn't need to talk the day off. She was sending us a message. We are now just beginning to listen. It's the time off from our worldly pursuits because there's something about surrendering to sleep. In a sense, every night recognizing the mystery of life that we don't have answers to. Of course, we have huge traditions of prophetic dreams,

but also dreams that simply work out through whatever it is that's unresolved from the day. So it's kind of a magical time. And when we acknowledge it that way, it's easy to surrender to it. But kind of thinking of ourselves like machines, we end up missing that magical time or not prioritizing it. I think the other key is just to, you know, if you really believe the statistic, I mean, the one that's most compelling for my college students is this idea that if you've been up for 17 hours, you basically have a blood alcohol level that you shouldn't be driving. And you wouldn't go to work like that. You wouldn't take care of your kids like that. Well, of course, you remember the tragic incident of a brilliant student after graduation whose boyfriend fell asleep behind the wheel and she died.

There are many tragedies like that. I mean, that became a big story because she was brilliant. She had written a book which was published posthumously. But there are a lot of traffic incidents based on sleep deprivation, a lot of injuries because of sleep deprivation, and then also an enormous lack of compassion and empathy in the way we interact with people based on sleep deprivation. Basically, just think of it that way. Look at yourself and you will recognize what I'm saying. When I'm sleep deprived, I'm the worst version of myself. I'm less empathetic. I'm less compassionate. I'm less creative. I'm more reactive. In fact,

I was giving a speech at a Facebook conference and I told the engineers there that I want them to create a feature that would allow me to unfriend myself during those days because I don't really want to be around me but I have no choice and this is so real it affects absolutely every aspect of how we show up and and I find the more you kind of look at life and reflect on life the more important joy becomes more you kind of look at life and reflect on life, the more important joy becomes. So I'm now at the stage where I don't measure my life by how effective I am. I mean, I know I can be effective. It's like that's kind of table stakes. And I think most people know they can be effective. The question is, can I also be joyful? Can I find joy in what I'm doing? And that's part of what

makes us really love our work more. And that's another thing that the kind of flip side of all the downsides of sleep are all the good sides of sleep that we forget, that it increases joy. You also talk in the book about how getting enough sleep can be kind of like a stress shield. It's sort of like a sort of resilience performance enhancing drug. Absolutely. We know that the same bad thing can happen to 10 people and they all react differently. Someone may be completely overwhelmed and broken by it and others can just find creative ways to deal with it. And if you are exhausted, it's less likely you'll be able to do that.

So it seems like sleep really is a medical miracle. I hope everybody in the audience here and everybody who's listening at home is convinced of that. But the fact that sleep is a medical miracle kind of raises this question about how can we get more of it, and that is a question I'm going to pose to Ariana once we return from a quick break. The Happiness Lab will be right back. all right welcome back so we've just heard that sleep deprivation basically undermines pretty much everything we need to be happy and if you just want one more statistic to drive this home for every hour of sleep you lose your risk of psychological distress goes up 14 for every single hour so sleep is basically fantastic. We need to create

more of it, but then that raises this cultural tension, which is even if I reflect for myself, I know the science about this really well. I mean, I've read your book and I teach a course on this stuff, but when I have to shut Netflix off and go to bed or put my phone away or really shut off for the night and put it far away so I'm not tempted to check my email, I honestly still struggle with that. There just is this tension between the benefits of sleep and this lifestyle where we're always connected. And that was one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you because you're a super successful business woman, but you've managed to solve this tension. And so how have you been

able to fight this? I guess, how did you come up with the commitment to really fight this? The way to commit to it is to break it down into micro steps and pick your micro steps, stay with it, and get an accountability buddy if you want. You can keep each other honest about shutting off Netflix. Incidentally, Reed Hastings, the CEO of Netflix, said that the main competitor of Netflix is sleep. So he knows exactly what's happening. And the way, of course, we are hooked is that one episode ends and the other begins. So that's where a certain amount of ruthlessness comes in about

priorities when you begin to see how much more you love your life when you're not sleep deprived. how much more you love your life when you're not sleep deprived. And I speak as someone who spent a large part of my life walking around like a zombie. I actually actively remember being in a board meeting and seeing in the back of the room a long table and thinking, if I go and crawl under the table, will anybody notice? You know, that's how exhausted I was. And another way I knew and you would know if you're exhausted is the minute I would be in a darkened auditorium, a movie and opera house, whatever, I would be asleep. Like literally it would take like a second and that's not normal. So Ariana, what are some of the tips that you've used to improve your sleep over time? One of the tools that I would love to sort of share with everyone here is a transition to sleep. Anybody here who's a parent knows that you have a transition to sleep with your baby.

You know, you sing it a lullaby, give it a bath. My transition to sleep is 30 minutes. But you know, start with five. My transition is I always have a hot bath. I love baths. If you don't like baths, have a hot shower. The point is not cleanliness. It's a ritual. It's almost like washing the day away, kind of imagining the day being washed away with all the good and the bad. And now you are getting ready for sleep,

the time to completely surrender and recharge. And then I actually love to rekindle the romance with sleep. So I love beautiful lingerie. If you don't like beautiful lingerie, you can wear a t-shirt or nothing. But if you wear a t-shirt, do not wear the same T-shirt that you're going to wear to the gym the next day because your body gets confusing messages. Are we going to the gym or are we going to sleep?

So have dedicated T-shirts for sleep. Whatever it is, dedicate a sleepwear. And then once I get into bed, absolutely zero screens. I only read real books and I read books that have nothing to do with work. I read novels, I read spiritual books, I read poetry, anything that helps me disconnect from my day. And I end my day with three things I'm grateful for. One of my favorite tips that you give in your book, though, and maybe the hardest tip, I think, for busy people,

is this idea that if you're experiencing sleep deprivation, that might not be the only problem. Like your sleep deprivation might be a sign that there are other issues that you are not addressing. Absolutely. I mean, it's like taking an inventory of your day and seeing what can you cut. And often it's things that are joyful and enjoyable, like watching a show you like or having a dinner with friends.

It's like something has to give. And there are times when, you know what? It would be nice to go to dinner with friends, but I'm just going to have a hot bath and catch up on my sleep. And the more responsibilities you have, a pretty relentless about what you are going to say no to. You cannot say yes to sleep without saying no to other things. And again, start small. You want to start with getting 15 minutes more. You know, don't say I'm going to go to eight hours or seven hours. Just start very small. So you build that muscle. You begin to have more energy.

You begin to see the impact it has and that impact it has, it becomes like a magnet. So I work a lot with college students and many of them, many of them will ask me, why can't I just not sleep now so I can sleep later once I'm successful like you? You know, what would you say to the college student who wants to do the grind right now and thinks they might prioritize sleep later? Well, thank you so much for asking that question, because it is based on a misconception about what leads to the greatest performance.

So if you are an entrepreneur, you are building a business, you want to show up the best version of yourself. Your business depends on the quality of your decisions. It doesn't depend on how many hours you're at your desk. And more than three quarters of startups fail. And somebody should do a study on the correlation between sleep-deprived, exhausted entrepreneurs and the decisions they make that lead to the collapse of their companies. So there is no trade-off between sleep and prioritizing our well-being and our performance.

On the contrary, the two things are completely interconnected. So we need to take sleep and well-being out of the realm of nice to have later in life and recognize it's integral to succeeding right now. and recognize it's integral to succeeding right now. When Jeff Bezos wrote on Thrive that he sleeps for eight hours because it improves his decision-making, it went crazy viral. I mean, there are many more very successful people who get enough sleep. And I know that because they confessed to me. But I remember when at a dinner,

Jeff Bezos said that to me and I said to him, you must write about it. I think it will help so many people. He said, I'm a private man. I don't write about it. But I harassed him until he wrote about it. And then he actually loved it because it had such an impact. And that is what is so interesting to encouraging people to come out as good sleepers. I mean, this is the exciting thing and kind of where I want to end is this question of are you optimistic? I mean, in your book, you presented, I think, what shows that there's a real crisis here. But I think since your book, you have Jeff Bezos coming out as an eight hour a day sleeper and so many people in this room who are excited to talk about sleep.

Are you optimistic that things are changing even though the culture isn't perfect? I am extremely optimistic. I'm optimistic for many reasons. I'm optimistic, first of all, I'm optimistic, first of all, because for many years we have really neglected this conversation. Your course was pretty instrumental in bringing that conversation back into the mainstream. in any transition, you know, from the dark ages to the renaissance, you are going to have multiple behaviors coexisting. So I'm sure you can have tons of examples from executives who are still bragging about how little sleep they got because they didn't get the memo. But, you know, it's changing. And I think now there is a different listening. Like if you told your boss something about sleep, it wouldn't be seen as something alien

because the Wall Street Journal very regularly covers sleep and so does the Harvard Business Review. And McKinsey did an entire study about the role of sleep in leadership. And when I first read it, I honestly thought it was an onion headline. You know, because it was like McKinsey is actually recommending more sleep for leaders. But that's a sign of the times. But we can also learn from the animal kingdom. I know you've studied animals also,

as well as human beings. And my favorite sleep animal is the cheetah. The cheetah sleeps for 18 hours and then she can accelerate going from zero to 60 miles in one minute. I don't recommend sleeping for 18 hours, but it's almost like a metaphor that the fastest animal in existence sleeps for 18 hours. So you could say like the most amazing, productive entrepreneur or business leader is somebody who shows up fully recharged. And that's why I'm optimistic. Fantastic. Well, I think of all the people who are starting this important conversation, I have a lot of gratitude for you for doing it so well and so eloquently. And so I want to end with giving a huge thank you to Ariana for all the amazing work she's doing and for sharing

that work with this audience and all the folks who are listening on the podcast. Let's give a big round of applause to Ariana. So Happiness Lab listeners, I hope we've convinced you to choose sleep. Cancel something you were planning to do tonight and devote that time to not being awake. It'll pay back dividends. You'll be fresher to tackle the tasks in your waking life tomorrow, and you'll be happier. That's all for this New Year mini-season. I hope it's been a

helpful start to your new decade. It would be great if you could rate and review the show, and spread the word to anyone you know who might like a few happiness tips. I'll be back with a new season of the Happiness Lab at the end of April. We have some great stories and fantastic guests, as well as the latest science on how to be happier. Until then, what more can I say except sleep? The Happiness Lab is co-written and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show was mastered by Evan Viola, and our original music was composed by Zachary Silver.

Special thanks to Ben Davis, Mia LaBelle, Julia Barton, Carly Migliore, Heather Fane, Maggie Taylor, Maya Koenig, and Jacob Weisberg. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. We're so done with new year, new you. This year, it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes.

More of you finding Gemini's because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too. Be more you this year and find them on Bumble.