The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 11/26/2020 - HOUR 3 - Pearlman, Gray, Fleck, Crosby

Episode Date: November 26, 2020

Best of The Herd Thanksgiving Day specialGuests: Jeff Pearlman, Jim Gray, P. J. Fleck, Maxx Crosby Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

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Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but the show.

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I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening to The Heard podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday from 12 to 3 Eastern, 9 to noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and FS1.

Find your local station for the herd at Fox Sports Radio.com or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Heard. You're listening to Fox Sports Radio. The new book is Three Ring Circus. And what's great about dynasties in sports is they never get old. They just don't. You can read about dysfunction on dynasties. I just read a Patriots book. And it's like, it's just incredible.

I just can't get enough on dynasties. And obviously the Shack, Kobe, Jerry West, Phil Jackson, a lot of ego. a lot of greatness and Jeff Perlman, three ring circus. The book is now out and he is joining us live. So, you know, it's funny, Jeff. Usually dysfunction punctures momentum. And Kobe and Shaq, I mean, different backgrounds,

a lot of dysfunction, but they made it work for quite a while. How did they make it work? I mean, the number one thing is they had two of them. most of the five most talented guys on the court at all times. And that's a huge thing. That's a huge thing. I just think they chose to coexist, not lovingly, but they chose to coexist. And I really think what the Lakers did, the most important thing they did, is they always had these role players who doubled as almost like guidance counselors. So whether it was Derek Harper, Rick Fox, J.R. Reed,

John Sally, you know, on and on, Ron Harper. There are always guys who are there to kind of sue things over in the locker room, Brian Shaw, guys like that. And it just made a world of difference. So even though it's funny because Shaq and Kobe occupied their own orbits in that locker room. And the media would go to Shaq and he would say something about Kobe. And then they would go to Kobe. And it was the most passive aggressive, aggressive nonsense ever, truly ludicrous.

But these guys, these veterans were all able. able to handle it well and sort of work it out so it was okay it wasn't that big a deal and also Phil Jackson to his credit like when Kurt Rambis was the intern coach shack's big complaint was he need to stop baby and Kobe he needs to stop baby and Kobe and Phil Jackson didn't baby Kobe he kind of let it be he let these guys run the locker room and it kind of worked so I remember when shack was in college in fact I talked to Jerry Tarkane and I was in Vegas and he said he told me about shack he said there's a kid down in Louisiana, he's going to change the game. But Kobe was different.

He grew up in Italy. He was a high school player. We didn't know much about him. I mean, literally, it wasn't a time when you drafted a guard at a high school, okay? So, Jerry, it doesn't, you don't think about it as a risk. But Jerry West drafts a high schooler makes a trade with Charlotte. I mean, was there any misgivings? Was he nervous?

Was there any doubt for Jerry West with Kobe when he's 18? All right, so it's the best thing ever. So it's all John Calipari's fault. It's all John Calabari's fault. So John Calipari is a coach in the Nets. He's a young coach, first year. And they have decided they're going to draft Kobe Bryant with the eighth pick in the 96th draft. It is a lock.

That is who we are drafting. And John Nash is a general manager. They're all on board. They brought Kobe in four times. They love him. Leading up to the draft, they actually meet with Kobe's parents. And they're like, we're going to draft your son. And Joe and Pam Brian are like, that's great.

He'll be nearby. Day before the draft, Kobe Bryant calls John Calipari on his own and says, I want to get away from my family. I don't want to play in New Jersey. I don't want you to draft me. Kobe's agent calls John Calipari and says, yeah, if you guys draft Kobe, he probably won't play this year or he might go to Italy. Calipari's freaking out.

He's like, oh, my God, he goes to John National Gym. He's like, I don't know what I'm going to do. What are we going to do? John Ashley, you need to calm down. It's all just a bluff. It's just a bluff. Kerry Kittles out of Villanova is represented by David Falk. David Falk calls John Calapari and says,

Kerry really wants to play with you guys. If you don't draft him, if he's there, I'm never going to have a player go to you again. Calipari is freaking out. He goes into John Nash. John, I don't know what we're going to do. John Ness is like, Cal, you need to calm down. It's all just a bluff.

And behind the scenes, there's this whole mechanism to get Kobe to L.A. Because he already signed a deal with Adidas. They don't want him playing in the swamps in New Jersey. They want him in L.A. Jerry West, his friends with Kobe's agent, aren't telling him. And John Nash is telling Cal, we got to do this. We got to do this.

We have to draft him. He's going to change a franchise. It's a day morning of the draft. John Calipari, who has in his contract, has final personnel say, gathers everyone around. And he says, I've made a decision. If Kerry Kittles is there at number eight, we're going to take Kerry Kittles.

and if he's not there, we're going to take Kobe Bryant. And John Nash just does one of those and puts his hands in his head. Of course, Kerry Kittles is there at number eight. I talked to Kittles. Kittles was like, I played with Kobe in the summer. I would have drafted Kobe too. They end up drafting Kerry Kittles. Jerry West is doing a freaking dance in his office because he knows the next four picks

are not going to be Kobe Bryant. He has his deal worked out with Charlotte. And he ends up trading Vladay for the rights of Kobe. And he says to Jerry Bus, right after that, that happens, I just got you the best player in this draft because they had worked out Kobe twice, once against Michael Cooper, once against Dante Jones, and it was the best two workouts Jerry West had ever seen. Wow. How about that? You know, when you do these books, I mean, again, it's scuba gear, you deep dive. There's always a crazy story. You have to find, I mean, I, I, you, you have hundreds of

sources per book. Was there a crazy, who did you track down that was crazy? What was the craziest story in the book? I mean, my favorite trackdown. I love the trackdowns. And J.R. Rider, you know, he was a Laker for one year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was a Laker for one year.

Former slam dunk champ. So J.R. Ryder, who I love, I actually really love. He twice in his career, when writers wrote something that he did not like, actually said to them, I know where your family lives. Like, that was his threat to them. I know where your family lives. All I had was an address for J.R. Rider. I did not have a phone number.

And I was going to be in Arizona. it. So I decided I'm going to drive to J.R. Riders' house. And I drive out there. I get there like 930, which is a little early, but that's okay. I knock on the door, a kid answers. I have my USFL book with me. I'm like, hey, it's J.R. Rider here? He's like, hold on. A woman comes the door. I'm like, hey, my name's Jeff Ferrellman. I'm a writer. Is J.R. Rider here? She goes, hold on. They close the door. I hear her and a guy, adult male, yelling at each other. And then the door opens, and there's J.R. Rider. And he goes, Who are you?

And I'm like, hey, my name is Jeff Perlman, and I'm a writer, and I'm doing a book about the... Bro. Bro. Are you effing kidding me? Bro, you just knock on my... Bro, you just knock on my door. Are you kidding me?

He opens the door and comes out, and he's like, this far away from me. And he's like, bro, that is not cool. And I'm convinced at this moment I'm about to get punched by J.R. Rider. And he goes, what's that book you have? And I'm like, oh, it's a book I did about the USFL. It's that Trump?

Is it Trump? I'm like, yeah, Trump owner team. What do you, so what are you working on? I'm like, well, I'm doing a book about the Lakers during the Shack Kobe years. All right, man, I'll talk to you. I'll talk to you. Ans are giving me two hours. Wow.

And he was awesome. And I just want to say, the best story ever is J.R. Riders playing for the Lakers. And they're on the road and he oversleaps. And he asked the front desk clerk to write him a note to give to him to Phil Jackson explaining that he did not get a wake-up call. So literally, J.R. Rider arrives at practice and gives Phil Jackson a note like a student late for class that says, dear coach Jackson, we are sorry on behalf of whatever hotel was the Hyatt. We regret that we were unable to provide J.R. Ryder with the requisite wake-up call. It is our fault. And he gives it to Phil Jackson

as his excuse for not being practiced on time. These are the kind of stories you get. It's a great book. It's called Three Rings Circus with Jeff Perlman. You know, it's when you read the book. Shaq and Magic Johnson has his quality too. Magic likes you to ask for help. Like if you're, Magic's offended if you move to L.A. and don't ask him for help. And I think Shaq wanted to be a little bit

of a father figure for Kobe, right? Like not only the physical stature he was so big, but, you know, he, he went to college and but it didn't work that way. And why, tell the audience why, because I think Shaq wanted that and would have been

comfortable with that, but it didn't work that way. I, you know, I talked to a guy named Mike Penberthie. Do you remember Mike Penberthy? Yes, I know. Yes, I do. He played with the Lakers for a spell for a year, and he went to Masters College. And he told me, when he first got to the Lakers, he had a, he made the team, and he didn't have a suit.

He only had a jacket. He bought a Nordstrom off the rack. And Shaq sees him wearing this jacket. And he says, Mike, do you own any suits? And Penn Berth, he's like, I don't. Jack's like tomorrow, meet me here. And he brings his personal suitmaker, his outfitter, and he pays for six of Mike Pemberthy suits.

Wow. When Shaq was teammates with Mark Madsen, he would go around and ask women if they were Mormon and if they were single. So he could introduce them to Mark Madsen, who was Mormon and single. Like, he would fly people in the parents of teammates in to see their kids' first game in the NBA.

He would pay for the funerals of teammates' parents. He was, Penberth, he said to me, he's the best teammate who has ever existed, just the best teammate who ever existed. And that's what he wanted to be, to his credit. He just wanted to be that.

And Kobe comes along, and Kobe's first introduction to the Lakers is first training camp in Hawaii, Dale Harris as a coach, all the players gather around, and they introduce each other. So it's like, hey, I'm Nick Van Exo, I'm Eddie Jones.

I'm Kobe Bryant. I played a lower Marion last year. and nobody here's going to punk me. That was his introduction to Lakers. Nobody here is going to punk me. He's 18 years old. And Kobe just wants him to say, can we go out to dinner?

Can you help me with this? I don't understand this. And it just wasn't who he was. And Shaq kind of had this thing in his head. I'm Batman. Kobe's going to be Robin. I'm big brother. He's going to be little brother.

But it just wasn't who Kobe Bryant was. And you're right. You are 100% right. The magic Shaq comparison is a really good one. He just wanted you to ask. He just wanted to be loved. And Kobe was not someone who did that. By the way, Jeff adds a prologue to the book.

The book had been written when Kobe passed, so he adds some texture and context to that as well. It's in the book. The book is called Three Ring Circus. What I love about this stuff, there's a shot of the book. You know, it's interesting now that LeBron's in town. The Lakers are a fascinating legacy. You've had, there was kind of the flaky wilt into the. the sort of academic, prickly Kareem, into everybody loves magic, into bigger than life shack,

and then there was, there's magic. And then there's kind of the aloof prodigy, Kobe. And now it's LeBron. And I know, you know, you're not writing a book with LeBron in mind, but I love your take on this, is that what's fascinating about the Lakers dynasty is all these superstars have been unique. They're all just, I mean, there is. is a magic shack thing that's kind of similar. But you're kind of feeling on how the Laker,

if the Lakers won the title, Jeff, how Kobe and Magic were so deeply embedded into the lore of the franchise. You know, here comes LeBron moving into town. He's already won titles. If he wins, what does it mean for the Lakers? How much of a Laker is LeBron, in your opinion? It's so funny.

I have a 20-year-old nephew named Jordan, and he's always like, LeBron is the greatest Laker ever, right? And it's like, no, what are you talking about? You know, no. I feel like in history, we're always going to think of LeBron first and foremost for Cleveland. I just think it's a guarantee and that's what it is. And I feel like that's the big difference here is that when you think of Kobe, he's a Laker,

when you think of Magic, he's a Laker, even Shaq with the four years in Orlando, he's a Laker. Will Chamberlun who played in Philly, a Laker, Jerry West, a Laker. And I do think the big difference here is his legacy will be great, who brought the is a title. It's wonderful. I just don't think he goes down the same way because I don't think he will be thought of as a Laker, a career Laker. And I think here in L.A., that really means something, not just that you played here, but that you, like Kobe, when he died, I'm a native New Yorker. I've lived here for six years. The thing that just did it for me and shocked me is how much people felt that death. And they felt like he was, it wasn't just a star dying. It was an icon dying.

He was a part of L.A. dying. Yes. And I'm not sure if LeBron has that. Yeah. You know what I mean? No, I think you're totally right. When Kobe passed away as somebody that lives in Los Angeles, I was in an airport. I just landed.

I literally was sick to my stomach. I went to the back of a restaurant. It was very emotional. Like, I felt like Los Angeles lost something. He was so Los Angeles. It's very much, it feels Troy Aikman, Dallas. Like, I just Aikman, he sounds like he's from Dallas. He looks like he's from Dallas.

He is Dallas. And I'm with you. I think LeBron is remarkable, but the depth of that relationship with fans. Speaking to depth, the book is called Three Ring Circus. There's dozens of stories. Jeff writes a book every couple years. We bring him on. Strongly recommend it.

And boy, I'll tell you, it's a dynasty with egos and stories and conflict, and you get all of it there. Jeff, it's great talking to you. I haven't seen you in a while. Keep safe for you and your fam, your kids, and your wife, and continued success. Thank you so much. It's very a pleasure being here. All right. The book is out. This is the Herd Best of. Coming up next.

Jim Gray. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeard Radio app. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman. documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space. For honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness,

this month. I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro.

Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now.

It's not about zoo animals. It's about the greatest athletes of all time. Jim's first interview, he was 18 years old, was Muhammad Ali, who was the biggest star in the world. He is now joining us live, and we appreciate that. All right, how'd you get Muhammad Ali at 18 years old? What's the secret sauce to that, Jimbo? Hey, Colin, thanks for having me. Well, I was a sports intern for the ABC station in Denver, KBTV, and my internship expired,

and they were converting from film to videotape. So all the union guys took the buyout. And so a bunch of people who didn't really have any idea what they were doing became videotape editors. I was in my edit room one morning very early, getting ready for the draft, a Red Miller show. He was the Broncos coach. Lady named Sue Tews, the assignment editor came running in. She said, I'm at all these two and a half hours early at the airport, run out and get him. Well, Ali was getting ready to fight Spinks, and then he was going to fight a Denver Bronco named Wild Al Zado.

Well, I'd never done an interview before. So I went into the weatherman's office, tried to find a coat and tie, couldn't find anything, went out to state with an international airport, did the interview with Ali after the first question. He said, you're the one that's doing this interview? And everybody started to laugh. Well, Colin, that just made me feel so much more comfortable because I had gone from nervous about interviewing the most visible and famous person on the planet to now they were laughing. But they weren't laughing at me. They were, you know, laughing to make me comfortable, the whole entourage. So after the third or fourth question, he said, you sound like the local Howard Cosell. Colin, that was the greatest compliment I had ever had in my life, and it gave me so much confidence. I took the interview back to the station. The news director was a man named Roger Ogden for ABC there. He looked at the tape, and he was with me for about 45 minutes, and he looked at it again, and he said, huh, we're going to put you in this tape on the air. It's barely adequate.

So I tell everybody I've been barely adequate ever since. The only athlete that rivals him in terms of flair and greatness, Muhammad Ali, is Michael Jordan. They're both like great-looking, stylish, thoughtful, smart. What was it like to interview Jordan? He was always impeccable. I mean, I never once saw Michael have a bad public moment. He always was great. every youngster on the head, you know, and he'd walk out of the building, you know, back when there was proximity, he'd sign autographs. He was nice to the security people. So interviewing him,

Michael, Michael was just, you know, easy. He was easy to talk to. He was easy to be around. I know his teammates in the last dance have a different portrayal. But in terms of how he was with me and with the media, he was great. And he was just terrific in all those years that we had him on NBC and, you know, in the pregame meetings where he would come in and Marv or Ahmad would interview him. He was just a perfect, perfect gentleman. And then a few times that I got to be with him outside of the court in Barcelona. We played golf on a few occasions. And he was just great. There was nothing, there was nothing intimidating off the court about Michael Jordan. What about here's somebody that's interesting. Mike Tyson, you interviewed him after the

bizarre ear-biting Evander experience. Now, that had to be odd, right? That was quite odd. And that was one that was one that I knew when it was going to happen after he bit the year that nothing like this would ever happen again. And, you know, he left the ring and didn't talk in the ring and we went back underneath. I was working with Showtime, where I still do the boxing. And David Dinkins, who is the producer, was in my ear. And he said, see if you can get Don to get him to come out. So Don King brought him out. And Colin, it's the only time that I have ever seen, actually, somebody who is alive and I could see their skull. That's how deep.

That's how deep over his eye, the headbut was, and the wound that had opened. You could see the orbital bone in his skull. And that's why he felt he had to bite Evander Holyfield. That was the reasoning he had, that he had to retaliate. So we did the interview, and I took it in chronological order and asked him what had gone on. And finally, well, was that the proper response to bite his ear? and he answered the question. And I've always had tremendous respect and admiration for Mike Tyson

because at his worst moments, and he's had some bad, despicable moments, at his worst moments, Colin, he always had the wherewithal to stand there and answer the questions. He didn't hide behind some PR person. He didn't come out with a statement four days later. He stood there and he took his medicine and he gave you a response. And that's very, very rare. Were you surprised the pushback? I certainly was the LeBron decision interview created.

I still can't figure out why the nation imploded. I thought LeBron looked nervous and thoughtful. Were you shocked by kind of the national response and the anger at LeBron? Yes, I was. And like Rich Paul has said to me and Maverick Carter, none of us had a crystal ball. None of us could foresee what went on there. And could we have been more sensitive to the fans,

Cleveland? Absolutely. And could we have explained better that we were giving away millions upon millions of dollars, the biggest donation ever in the history of the Boys and Girls Club? Yes, we could have. So yes, we could have done better. But to make LeBron into a villain, it was wrong then, and it should have never occurred. And if you look at that show now and what the decision has become, that was the moment. It was the Kurt Flood moment for this generation of player empowerment. and of the birth, really, of communicating through social media and the rise of the Players' Tribune and just how things go now, the reverberations of that show and the passage of time, the NBA players, and all of sports, every player in sports, owes a tremendous debt of gratitude

to LeBron James. Talking to Goats, now we know you've done Tiger and we know you've done Brady, and I'm going to save those for people to buy the book because I want an autograph copy as well, but I've got to ask you this. I remember interviewing Charles Barkley when I was a local reporter, and I knew he was going to be a star. He was so funny. He made fun of my shoes. He made fun of me.

You just knew. You're like, that guy's going to be hysterical on TV. Is there anybody that's not a star that you interviewed and you just loved? You just went home and you know, that's that maybe we wouldn't talk about or maybe a lower star or somebody perhaps you haven't interviewed you want to. Well, you know, Charles was great. in the book that Charles was the most entertaining, most fun guy to be around. And we used to go up and down the ramblers at night in Barcelona at the Olympics and then hung out with him a tremendous amount. And Mike Tyson threatened to kill me on the air. And 45 seconds later, he kissed me on the cheek.

And I'm still trying to figure out, look more disturbing. Charles Barkley kissed me on my cheek twice on national television and for no apparent reason at least mike was trying to make up for threatening to kill me yeah charles did it and i still don't know why he did it but to answer your question i mean there's a lot of guys who i've walked away and i thought you know that's what a pleasant really great guy and you know they're superstars too i mean brady is as nice a guy and and as cordial as anybody you'd ever want to meet at wayne gretzky julius irving joe nameth i don't know anybody who's more comfortable who's been a bigger superstar who forced a merger of a league and brought the afl to the super bowl that we now see that joan name it so uh and a guy who was really understated

but who had just a incredible heart and and really didn't seek the limelight or anything i love spending time around marvelous marvin haggler he was really special calling oh yeah you know my first job no one i waste time here my first job at a college was covering boxing so instead of going to your usual first job in middlin texas i got to cover Hagler Sugar Ray Leonard and I've always thought of it as the great career break. Now I made about $8 an hour and I lived on peanut brittle

but both of us started basically for free. The book is called Talking to Goats. Buy it. I want to copy. This is just great. Jim, absolute pleasure. The Emmy winning sports reporter, Sportscaster of the year in America in 1997. Great seeing you and thanks for stopping by our show.

Colin, thanks for having me. Love your show. Appreciate it. All right. You soon. This is the Best of. Coming up next. PJ Fleck. PJ Fleck, the hot young college football coach,

one of the really interesting, fascinating guys in this sport joins us. Fourth year at Minnesota, 23 and 15. So let's, you know, it's funny. When I watch you, you got a lot of energy. You are just jumping through my television set. And I think to myself, who is this guy's mentor? Who is his idol? Who was your guy?

Were you a bow? Were you a Woody? Where did you get the inspiration? When you get to a dark time in your life and you know that you lose a recruit, you lose a game, who do you go back to? Who's PJ Flex mentor in this stuff? That's a great question, Colin. Well, first of all, you got to know that I was an elementary school teacher and have an elementary education degree before I even got into professional football and then obviously get into coaching.

But it really dates back to a few guys. Jim Tressel is really the guy that first took a chance on me. and I was a GA at Ohio State during the 2006 run where we lost to Florida in the national championship. And I still remember going through that year going, boy, this coaching thing is not that hard. I mean, you show up. You're unfeated. You're playing the game of the century.

You win. And then you go get beat by Florida. But there were so many lessons Coach Tressel taught me of how to care for the complete person in this profession, not just the football player, but academically, athletically, socially and spiritually. And then when you look at Mike Nolan, who was my head coach when I played for the San Francisco 49ers, who also thought that I should be able to get into coaching. If it wasn't for those two guys, I wouldn't be where I am today. And then Greg Schiato kind of helped me with college and in the pros.

And here we are today. You know, one of the reasons, I don't know much about COVID. I wear a mask. But the one thing I said that I was rooting for college football is there is no Joe Burrow if he didn't play last year. He probably goes undrafted. That you often recruit young men who come from tough environments. you can literally change their life.

And if we would not have played college football, let's be honest, after about 20 guys, PJ in the first round of the draft, most of these guys played their way into getting drafted in the second, third, fourth round. You literally can change lives. And there was a point a month ago. We didn't know three weeks ago we were going to have Big Ten football. How was it landing for you that you want to be respectful to COVID and the dangers of it, but no football, there's a lot of kids that need it. Well, there's a lot of kids that need it.

You know, this is their way to be able to, one, get an education paid for. One, get a bachelor, sometimes get a master's. We have some kids getting their doctorate degree that if it wasn't for football, they wouldn't have those opportunities. But we've stressed to our team. We're a proactive football team, not a reactive football team. This isn't about just because COVID-19 came up. You have to have contingency plans upon contingency plans

in all areas of these young people's lives. I mean, here they are the one normal thing they've all had in their life that they all been able to schedule their whole life around was football. Then football was taken away from them. They left us for three, four months, and then you get them all back together. You're playing, you're not playing, you're not playing. And by the way, there's a national pandemic going on with testing and everything else that we have. So it really is, I'm really thankful that we do have football back in the mix,

but I'm even more thankful because it's a safe environment. for our young people to be in as they continue to play football and go towards their dreams of playing in the National Football League as well or in the professional world. You're two-time Mac-Ten, Mac Coach of the Year, Big Ten Coach of the Year, and this is not meant, I'm asking this respectfully because you're an unbelievable coach. But have you ever looked across the sideline as a young coach and thought, I'm coaching against Urban Meyer, I'm coaching against Jim Harbaugh, you know, a guy that was in the Super Bowl. Have you ever had one of those moments as a young coach and thought, I am in the Big Ten.

I'm on national television. I mean, six years ago, PJ, that may have been a dream. You're living a life, a young coach, mostly never gets to. Well, I am living my dream. I tell our team that all the time and our staff. My job as a coach is to make everybody else's dreams come true because mine has already come true. I don't come from a long line of lineage of coaches. My dad killed Bugford Living, my mom's a teacher's aide.

We had no coaching in our background. It was all about education. My sister's a kindergarten teacher. My mom was a special education assistant. And I got into the elementary school teaching. Really ancient Rome on that side is where I have a specialty. So when you start to think about how I got started and where I was, I'm incredibly thankful for everything that I've been able to get.

But I've looked across in the Mac, looking at Frank Solich. These people had no idea probably who I even was at 31, 32 years old in the Mac, getting a chance to coach against Urban Meyer when I was at Western Michigan. And even when we get to Minnesota, you're across from James Franklin, I think is one of the best coaches in America. You get a chance to be against Gus Malzahn and the Outback Bowl and be able to coach against those guys. And for someone who comes not from the coaching tree of so many others,

I take a lot of pride into who raised me in the profession. You know, I wear a tie on the sideline, not for me. Not to be looked at, but because Mike Nolan wore a tie on the sideline, who's one of my biggest influences. And then Jim Tressel wore a tie on the sideline, who's my biggest influences. And it's my way to be able to thank every single person who made me, me. Because if it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be in the position that I am. And they put me in those positions. And I think not even just looking across the sideline, I remember I was a GA at Ohio State looking next to me and seeing Jim Tressel saying,

I'm actually on this guy's staff. So it's always been fun. I'm very appreciative for where I am, and I have an amazing staff around me that are able to make the success possible at times. So it's interesting, and I had said, I remember years and year, I mean, this is, I'm dating myself, but I remember when Urban Meyer went to Utah. And Oregon, he beat Oregon and Cal, Utah did. And Oregon was pretty good. They had Mike Bellotti. They were winning games.

And I remember telling my friends, I said, I don't know who this guy is with a different name, but that dude can coach. he's got two-star players and he's beating people with three and four-star players. So you have now twice gone into a program and very quickly turned it around. And this is really a business question, as much as it is a football question. So when you go into a culture like Minnesota football that didn't have, you know, that's not Alabama, give me two things. How do you turn around a business that doesn't have a winning culture? and not only did you do it, you did it quickly.

Yeah, two things. One, you never sacrifice what you really want down the road for what you want immediately right now. That's very difficult to do in our profession. We've won where we've been because we've done it with a lot of high school players. We've played and have been in year twos of programs where we're the youngest team in America, but it was necessary to have the success down the road. And the second thing is you win with people, period.

We don't get all the four star, five stars. I think in the Auburn game, they had 54 stars, and we had five. But we call ourselves Howe University. And it's the how of a person that makes them really special. It's their heart. It's their spirit. It's their unconquerable will. It's their crack on the shoulder, not just a little chip.

It's finding a way to constantly give your people an advantage, being proactive, and really getting yourself around a really positive environment where you can find a way to be able to grow in that environment every single day, fail, grow, and want to come back the next day to do it all over again. So that's what we've been able to do, but people is the biggest thing. We have incredible people inside our organization. We have an incredible culture with our road-the-boat culture or never give up mantra. And again, it might be a little bit different.

It might be maybe not what everybody does, but it's our way. And it's the only way I know. And we're really happy with where we're at and where our programs headed as well. PJ Fleck, Minnesota football coach. By the way, you said your dad killed bugs. He was, give me a little more on that. What's that story? Terminix.

He was a Terminix, man. He went there and made sure you didn't have all those creepy crawlers in the house. He worked for AT&T prior to that, too. So he did a lot of things. He's a hard-working man, blue-collar. I love that. I love your story. I think your energy's infectious.

You're incredibly easy to root for. Okay, folks, their season starts. They're hosting Michigan. That's about 30 days from now, right? At home against Michigan in 30 days. They were 11 and 2 last year. They beat Hubbard and the Out. Love it.

So easy to root for. PJ, congrats to you. Continued success to you and your staff and your kids. Call, I appreciate it, man. Roll the boat, sky, go gofers. This is the herd best up. Coming up next. Max Crosby.

Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon eastern 9 a.m. Pacific. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast, Superhuman, documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed. That's correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite

therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth,

or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way.

Open your free, our heart radio app. Search, learn the hard way, and listen now. And he's from, like, Rochester, Michigan. So you would think, oh, he played. for Michigan. No, they didn't recruit him. Oh, Michigan State. No, they didn't recruit him. He goes to Eastern Michigan, and he's the best defensive linemen for the Raiders. And his stats are fantastic. They force five turnovers. And he's in Vegas, baby. And we love Vegas on this show. Max Crosby, Raiders defense event is joining us live from Vegas.

So good Lord. First of all, it's great to have you on. And I mean, I'm sitting there thinking, and nobody offered you. So how many offers did you get at a high school? I had one. It was Eastern Michigan. Yeah, you know, it's funny. Being from Michigan, you know, I would think somebody would want me, but I didn't get anybody.

So, you know, Eastern was the only one. And, you know, they offered me, and I was expecting maybe some more offers, but, you know, they were the only one, so I committed right away. You know, it feels like, it honestly, Max, it feels like Gruden and the Raiders are a good, fit for you and your personality. And I'm not there every day, but give me your relationship with Gruden.

I mean, Gruden's a tough guy and he's a fighter, and you're obviously a fighter to go to Eastern Michigan and end up as a great NFL player. What is Gruden like to play for? Yeah, you know, I think you're spot on. You know, Oakland, you know, now the Las Vegas Raiders are, you know, it's just a perfect fit for me and my personality, you know. We're hard-nosed, you know, and Gruden loves guys like that. He wants guys that love football, and, you know, that's everything I am.

You know, it's an awesome, you know, organization. You know, it's fun, and we have a lot of fun, and it's laid back, but when it's time to work, you know, they're on it. You know, they push me personally every day to my limits, and, you know, I know they do that with everybody else. So it's an awesome environment to be around, and we're really just having fun and trying to be the best we can be. Well, you're winning, and that's all I know. By the way, you're kind of a power football team. you run the ball, you get after it. Now, Vegas can be distracting as a young guy from cold weather Michigan,

and you got a beautiful girlfriend, and you go to Vegas, do you go to the casinos ever? You all football? I mean, what's it like to live there for a young guy? Yeah, you know, I moved here in February, so, you know, I kind of got to see the town for the first time. And it was, you know, it was awesome. You know, it's beautiful. There's a lot going on all the time. but for me personally, you know, especially with this COVID going on and everybody's got to be safe and nobody wants to miss games.

You know, I've, I literally have the same routine every day. You know, I come home, I eat good, I hang out with the dogs and my girl and we just relax, you know. So it's not like I'm living on the strip. You know, I'm far away from that. So I'm definitely ducked off and just, you know, having a good time and relaxing. So you're in a division now with Justin Herbert, Patrick Mahomes. when you guys beat, and nobody else is doing this, you beat the Kansas City Chiefs. Take me inside a little bit what it is like to play with Mahomes.

Is he talkative? Does he audible a lot? Is he a trash talker? What is it like to face Mahomes, the world's best football player, many believe now? Yeah, you know, I believe that too. You know, he's a once-in-a-lifetime type talent. You know, the guy, he doesn't really talk much. You know, he's super focused when he's on the field, but the way he plays is just so much different than any other quarterback you face.

It's just like when you play the Chiefs, you know, it's not like a regular football game. You know, you know you're going to be running for your life trying to get him down. You know, he's trying to extend plays, trying to make, you know, underneath passes behind the back. You'll literally do anything. So he's just a, he's a different type of player. And, you know, every time we play Casey, we know it's going to be a, you know, it's going to be a crazy. game. So last time you beat him, and I thought this story was hysterically funny. It's so Raiders. It's so Gruden. It's perfect. So you guys drive the bus around the victory lap thing, and

Gruden, it's so funny. So Gruden was asked about it yesterday. I got to play this by of Gruden getting all pissy. Here's Gruden yesterday at the press conference. Here he is. Hey, John. Today, Andrew, we mentioned a couple times the victory lap you guys took in KC in the first game. What exactly was the victory lap? And is that something that you think about this week as far as Boat more material or anything like that? Not really. I mean, you can find a smart Alec bus driver in Kansas City who made some snide comments when we got on the bus. Maybe that's why we drove around the stadiums to tick him off.

You know, this is ridiculous. Next question. I mean, so can you just, you won't get in trouble. What happened? Can you tell me the story? I honestly, it's funny. After the game, you know, we were also fired up. You know, obviously winning in Casey is very, very.

rare and especially with that team you know it's it's a big deal anytime you beat them so on the bus you know I noticed when we took off we were like I didn't even nobody said anything like yeah we're taking a victory lap blah blah blah I just noticed we were driving around the stadium because we were just going in a big circle so honestly a lot of the guys we had no idea so we were just we were just noticing we're like wait like where are we going in circles so I don't know you know I honestly don't know the backstory at all. And yeah, you know, it is what it is. People are trying to make it bigger than it is.

Yeah, the media, that's what we do. So you have 16 sacks in 25 games. You're a very, you know, you're an emotional guy. You get after it. Can a defensive lineman be a leader? And by the way, when you're young, I mean, you're a kid still in this league. Is it okay? Like, do you like the leadership thing?

Yeah, you know, absolutely. You know, a D-Lyman definitely could be a leader. You know, we're in the trenches, you know, we're going, going toe-to-toe the biggest guys and strongest dudes on the field at all time. So, you know, being a young guy, you know, I feel like that was something I struggled with a little bit last year, you know, as far as a leadership standpoint. But this year, you know, me and Cleland and the rest of the guys, you know,

our defense is a bunch of young guys trying to, you know, generate, you know, pressure and generate a new type of football that, you know, is just hard-nosed and gritty and play to the end of the whistle. And that's, you know, that's something I'm trying to do. You know, be a part of that and help the guys any way I can. Boy, your speed is incredible. You just don't play like most offensive linemen. You're fast.

Has there been, obviously, you know, it's funny. You play at Eastern Michigan. That's nothing against the league you were in. But the offensive linemen aren't quite as good as the AFC West. Who has been the best offensive linemen you faced? Oh, that's tough. In the last two years, you know, I feel like David Bakhtiari's definitely up there. We played him in Green Bay last year.

I think Taylor Luan, Larry Mutantel, there's a bunch of guys like a name. But, yeah, no, you're not wrong when you say that. You know, there's every week, you know, that's the biggest difference. Come from the NFL to college. It's like college, you know who you're playing this week. Like, oh, it's about to be one of those weeks. But the NFL, everybody's good. and there's guys that are athletic that are 320 pounds and 6'7.

Like, you just don't see that in the back. So, you know, the talent is incredible in this league. So it's always awesome, you know, to get up for a challenge like that. Were you worried a little bit when you came from a smaller school? Take me to your first practice because, you know, you're Eastern Michigan. You go to the NFL first practice. Was there a moment, Max, when you're like, okay, I can play in this league. I know I can play in this league.

Yeah, 100%. You know, coming from the back, you know, we played, we always played like a Kentucky or like an Illinois or Purdue during the season. So I always had big games against, you know, the Power 5 team. So I was confident, you know, I wasn't worried. But when I first came to training camp, I saw Trent Brown lined up at right tackle and nobody wanted to go against them. And I was like, I'm going to take it on, you know, as a challenge, you know, to try to beat him. If I could beat him one time, I know I could win in the. league. So I was going against him every single day. And this dude is 6, 8, 6, 9, 400 pounds.

These are different animal that I've ever gone again. So the first time I beat him, I was like, okay, I can do this. Like, this is easy. If I can beat Trent, I can beat anybody. So that's always been my mentality. I always think about going against Trent when I first got in the NFL. And, you know, that gives me a ton of confidence. Well, it's great meeting you. The Raiders are a great story. I'm old enough, and I still think I'm pretty young. But I can, I go back. to the Raiders when they had Kenny Stabler and John Madden. It's an incredible

tradition. Vegas is a perfect fit. And I think I just, the whole John Gruden thing is just, by the way, when they drafted you, did Gruden get on the phone? A, Max, it's Gruden. Did he get on the phone when he drafted you? Oh, yeah, 100%.

The first thing he said is, I need you to get Mahomes. We need you to get Philip Rivers and all that. And I was like, all right, let's go. I got this, let's do it. And it was hilarious. So you know how Gruden is. He always, always loves challenging his players, and I love it.

You know, he's one of a kind. Easy got a route for. Max, good luck to you and the Raiders, my friend. Thanks for coming on the show. Good luck to you. Your girlfriend, your three dogs, which you locked up for five minutes so we can hear you on the air. We appreciate it.

Yes, sir. Thank you so much. All right. Max Crosby, Raiders, defensive. That is so Groot. Hey, Max, I need you to get after Philip Rivers. Patrick Mahomes, Max. You've got to get after it.

You've just listened to The Best of the Herd with Colin Cowher. Please tune in tomorrow for more of Colin Cowherd right here. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. It was a wild year.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliver Show.

This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.