The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 3 and Out - Carson Wentz 'Dead Cap' Convo; Kicker Blair Walsh on Pressure Kicks, Memorable Makes and Devastating Misses

Episode Date: February 19, 2021

In this episode, John discusses the massive "dead cap" hit the Eagles are taking by dealing Carson Wentz to the Colts, and why Philly is willing to take the hit. He also has an extended conversation with former Pro Bowl kicker Blair Walsh who shares an inside look at life as a kicker in the NFL pressure cooker, memorable makes, devastating misses, and trying to stay in the NFL. Follow John on Twitter and SUBSCRIBE now to get all the latest content!! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast.

For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians,

and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more. Surprise your Valentine with 1-800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stem in julys.

Chanted Rose Medley for $3999 or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more. Go to 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. What is going on, everybody? John Middlecock, that would be myself, three and out podcast. Thank you for listening. We have a big show coming up. We have Blair Walsh, the former Viking kicker, kick for Seattle,

for a year, join the show. And we just talk everything from playing in the SEC to turning down Nick Sabin to go to Alabama. He ended up going to Georgia, kicking in the playoffs, missing kicks, making kicks, what it's like to try out for teams. Kind of dive into it all. It's kind of unique, you know, and a big fan of Blair. I know he's a big Colin guy.

We met through Instagram. I'm telling you, you slide up in those DMs. You never know. I think I slid up into his DMs. But yeah, he was, it was fun, good interview. I'm going to start off the top. I'll dive into the quarterback stuff that happened on Thursday. And then Middlecoff Mailbag at John Middlecough.

What I think I'm going to do, because the interview is pretty long, and I'll probably just talk about the quarterbacks for at least 10 minutes, so I want the show to be too long. I'm going to put it on YouTube. Just go to my YouTube channel, John Middlecough, and I'm going to put the Q&A, basically the Middlecough mailbag, I'm going to put it up there. So that'll be today.

And yeah, this is like we always do, three and out podcasts. If you listen on Collins' feed, subscribe on the individual three and out feed. Would greatly appreciate that. Helps for selling. You guys know the drill. Leave a review if you like the show.

And let's dive into the quarterbacks. Okay, we had a big trade. Carson Wentz is now an eagle. We have Rathasberger, who looks like his job at any of, moment he could be cut. So we got some crazy quarterback movement. And I want to start with the financials.

One, people, I think people view money the wrong way. Money is all relative. If you don't have any money and I give you $1,000, that's a lot of money. If you are a multi-millionaire and I hand you $1,000, that is not a lot of money. anyone that started a business that first year any positive revenue you make let's just pick a

you know an even number $100,000 you start a business and that first year you make $100,000 in revenue you're probably excited as hell you started a business for scratch you made $100,000

$10 years later that number if things are going well could be $50 million in revenue So you started $100,000, that number was a lot. Because your first year, 10 years later, you could have office space, you could have 50 employees, you're making $50 million in revenue. Do you know the way you look at that business,

and you might be doing the exact same thing in terms of pushing the same product? Let's say you're selling clothes, and that clothing line has blown up. Do you know what you no longer do? you don't view that $100,000 revenue as a lot. Think of it in your own personal, you know, space. At one point in time, if you would have handed me $1,000, that would have been a shitload of money. Then you get to a point in time, life goes well.

If you handed me $10,000, that would have been a lot of money. And if things keep going well, maybe you hand me $50,000, not a lot of money. Then you hand me $500,000. That's not a lot of money. Why? Well, if I got 20 million in the bank, those numbers are small. If I have no money, or I'm worth $50,000 and you hand me $5,000, that's a lot of cash. Money is all relative. And I think a lot of people look at the NFL and they go, how can these people be eating this money?

They just gave all this bonus money to the player. Because like in basketball, Steph Curry signs a $200. million dollar deal. He has paid that deal over the course of his five-year contract. In football, the moment Carson Wentz or Jared Goff signed that $150 million deal with all that guaranteed money of $100 to $10 to $120, they are paid that money by that owner over like a 12 to 18 month stretch. Do you know what those owners no longer care about? $100 million. Where maybe 10, 20 years ago, they would have. Why? Because the NFL is printing money. NFL franchises are now banks.

The one NFL team that did not have any money, the Raiders moved to Las Vegas. And now whenever Corona ends and they could have the stadium humming, they will have a ton of money. Every team has cash. Because even if you don't generate any money, the media check that comes to every team is way more than the salary cap. It's paying for your coaches, it's paying for your employees, it's paying for your players. They print money. Because we know all these teams are making money. So a team like the Eagles, which I was lucky enough to work for, Jeffrey Lurie has been making such big cash for 20 plus years.

All this money, when I see, I can't believe they paid them all this money and they got rid of them. I can't. They don't like him anymore. They can't stand the guy anymore. Now, is it going to bite him in the ass? Did they screw it up? Maybe, probably. Is he going to succeed with the Indianapolis Colts?

I don't know. Is it risky for the Colts? Of course it is. Because this guy has not played well and he's been a locker room problem. But you know what the Colts have to do on March 3rd now? They have to pay Carson Wentz $10 million. Let me repeat. They have to pay Carson Wentz $10 million. You know what Jim Ursaid doesn't even blink or give a shit about?

$10 million. It means nothing to them. And I think we see this dead cap. And obviously you don't want dead cap space, you know, to exist on a given year, right? You would like to have the full allotment of the cap space to buy the, the players. But you know what teams are starting to realize? Yeah, it doesn't matter. We don't want the guy around. Get out of here. The Eagles wanted them gone. Did they screw up the situation? Maybe. Is Carson Wentz a pretty big diva? Yes. Is it a disaster on both there? You know, do they both

bear some responsibility? Of course they do. Are the Colts, you know, kind of benefiting from being able to buy low? Kind of, but they're taking on a huge contract. Which again, you know what they don't care about, a huge contract. Because $30 million to an NFL, it's like, whatever, none of this matters. These teams have unlimited money. Back when I worked in the NFL, when I first got there like 10 years ago, paying a wide receiver was a lot of cash. Amari Cooper last year, who's probably not even a top 7 or 8 wide receiver.

He's probably like somewhere like 8 to 15. Makes $20 million a year. And you know what? It's not even weird. I think a lot of people, when you see them talking about these transactions, like the dead cap, the cap space, the bonuses are living like 15 years ago. None of this fucking matters. They have unlimited cash.

You know what the Pittsburgh Steelers will do if Rathusberger doesn't give back a lot of cash? They will cut him. And I don't even think they'll think twice about it. You know what the Rams would have done with Jared Gough if they did not get Matt Stafford? In my own opinion, I don't have inside information on this, but just look at the way they talked about him. I think they would have cut Jared Gough. Because they don't care about the dead cap space.

They don't care about the bonus money they paid him. They don't want to see him anymore. They don't want him to be their quarterback. You know what the Eagles didn't want? Carson Wentz to be around the building anymore. And you know what doesn't matter to any of these teams we've mentioned? Money. For most human beings, right, money matters.

Even when it's relative, right? If I own a million dollar home, I've got to have a certain amount of money to be able to pay my mortgage, pay the taxes, all that stuff. If I own a $10 million home, it's still all relative. I got to have the money to pay the taxes, the mortgage, whatever. If I have an NFL team, this is what it costs to do business. Unlike most of us, the home analogy, we have to earn income.

And that's not guaranteed. We get fired, a business can go under, whatever. In the NFL, you know what, is not going to happen? No money flowing. Why? Because the media deals pay for all the players. So when these teams decide, I don't want this player anymore, Clearly the Steelers right now, Colin mentioned it.

Rathusberger is not a hard worker in terms of the offseason. His body's always, meh. His film study, below average, the offense. They've had to tailor it. Now, listen, I'm a Rothesburger guy in his peak. You know what I'm not Rothesberger guy? Right now, he can't move. He's old.

He got way worse toward the end of the season. And it doesn't matter what I think. The GM's admitting to it. Like, they're kind of over them. And you know what they will do? They're not caught up with the money. Now, it impacts you in the sense of how you can build your team in the short term. But when you get to a certain point in time when you have unlimited cash and I've never been this way,

obviously, most people listening are not, they're only a small percentage of billionaires and they're all NFL owners and then other people, right? But, I mean, all the NFL owners are in that small percentage. You don't get caught up in, you know, like, we always say this, use this word and this model. like it's water under the bridge don't worry about spilled milk that's easy to say if money doesn't matter to you but like most of us if we buy a home and we start going underwater on it lose our job like we're in trouble we might have to foreclose on the home short we're just we have to make a decision if you are worth a hundred and two hundred million dollars and you have all these properties and one is going to go under

that's worth a couple million dollars you know what you can do whatever fuck it I just lose it, we'll just focus on the ones that are doing well. That's kind of what NFL teams are turning into with the most important asset in the quarterback. But because of the ability to like, yeah, we paid this guy all this money, we don't want him to be our quarterback anymore. That never happened most of my life. You just rode out situations. And I think in basketball and baseball, it happens a lot because of the guaranteed money. You just can't cut the guy. I think these teams are realizing now listen, let's bite the bullet.

Financially, it only cripples our salary cap. It doesn't actually impact if I'm an owner the bottom line. I'm still making the same amount of money. And even if my team is not doing great, I'm still going to crush it. If I'm the Steelers or the Eagles, like the Eagles this year won four or five games. You think Jeffrey Lurie are like, yeah, we're just not making any money anymore?

No, you got richer this year. So I think we have to start looking at this different. and realizing these teams are not going to get as caught up on dead cap space because the one thing we know for a fact is irrelevant is the word cap space because you can change it immediately. You can cut guys, you can restructure contracts. Dead cap space, a little different. You're not, you can't really change that unless you trade a guy and even some of that stays

on your books. But I think these GMs and I definitely think these owners because they're the ones okaying these transactions realized, yeah, bite the bullet, let's move on. I don't want this guy on the team anymore. We've already paid them, so who cares? And they have the financial wherewithal now and the deep pocket books to like, you know, whatever. And I think we're only going to see more of it.

And I think it's going to be a new trend in the NFL. Because the more money you have, the easier it is to solve your problems. Most of our problems as like if you just look at like small businesses are always financially based, right? Like can we afford another employee? Can we afford to, expand the office. Can we afford to for a restaurant, bring in, you know, another chef? Can we afford to, you know, rent

the space next to us? It's just, you're always kind of nitpicking. It's why as someone that does a lot of advertising, I like dealing with the big boys because they don't really worry about little rounding errors. When you do business in my space with small businesses, you know, every $10,000 means a lot to them. I like, ideally, you know, you want to work with huge companies where money doesn't mean that much. And obviously it always means something. But a rounding error is just relative to how much money you have. And I think these teams in the league have shown us

their rounding errors right now are fucking enormous because of the cash that is being generated by the league. So Carson Wentz, the Eagles were tired of him. He was tired of them. Now we'll see what happens with the Colts. Somewhat low risk. Still pretty risky because they're character stuff. And he makes a ton of money.

Rathesberger. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions,

my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for Raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clivert Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and a TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, lover, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a paramedo ophthal chin here you do.

So let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast. How hard can it be with Deanna Maria Riva, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that nest was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive.

Wait, what sex? Dating at 45. How can it be getting naked at 50 with a new guy? That one's kind of hard. Well, that's lighting. They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears or tears of laughter, and dive into it unfiltered and unbothered and ask,

How Hard Can It Be? I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of My Cultura Podcast Network available on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed.

finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed.

He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stopped by like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that Isaiah,

you figure it out real quick. Oh, yeah. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Steelers go, listen, it's just we got to move on. and I don't think he's going to have a trade partner. I think if he's not on the team next year,

they're going to release him. So it just shows you these GMs now, which I appreciate, aren't sugarcoating any of this. You know, they're just being honest. What's the point? Like, listen, we're not bound by anything. Just because, yeah, we've got to owe this guy a bonus.

Whatever, pay the guy a bonus, tell him to go away. That's what the NFL is becoming very, very quickly. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1800flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination. 1,800 Flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise. Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1,800flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values. To order today, visit 1,800flowers.com that's 1-800flowers.com

slash tune in. If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside each other's mind walk a mile in my shoes

walk a mile in my shoes walk a mile in my shoes we've all felt left out and for some that feeling lasts more than a moment we can change that learn how it belonging begins with us.org brought to you by the ad council

Walk a mile in my shoes. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinnwity host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. Let's dive into our guest. Blair, what's going on, man?

Nothing much. How are you doing, John? I'm doing really good. Happy to have you on the show. I don't think we had Carson Palmer on a year. I've never had a kicker. I've had some quarterbacks. They get a lot of run, the quarterbacks. Right.

There's something funny about the fact that you just mentioned Carson Palmer in the same sentence as me. but I mean, I'll definitely take it. So, thanks. Let's start with this. You were just recently signed going into the playoffs or a little bit before with the Saints. And you and me were just kind of BS and before I hit record on just that process. Obviously, this year was kind of bananas, right? You don't just show up and sign and kick that day.

Tell us a little bit like once they want to sign you what the quote unquote onboarding process of the tests and before you can officially kind of be signed, how that worked. Yeah, I mean, we were just discussing it earlier. It's so unique this year and the process of even just signing for agents off the street. I got a call about a week before they even wanted to bring me in saying that, hey, we're thinking about bringing you in on, I think it was the 28th. And then we're going to keep you here for five days, pass all the coronavirus tests that you do daily. and then after that fifth day passes, you can then work out for the team. Then after that workout, they can either sign you immediately or they can wait another,

I think it's almost a week. And then they would have to be forced to make a decision to sign you or to let you go home. They can't keep you past that time. And, you know, as you know, in normal years, that's just not the case at all. They'll bring you in on a Sunday night, Monday morning to work out by, you know, Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning, you know whether or not you're being signed to that team. And if not, you just get on a plane and fly back to wherever you were. Yeah, I mean, my first year in Philly, I was like the lowest guy in the totem pole.

I used to pick up guys for those workouts. And, you know, for position players, it's more just kind of like a combine work. But for kickers or punters, I mean, there could be multiple guys that have given workout just kicking against each other. Have you ever been a part of a workout like that in the last couple of years where you just kind of been a kickoff against a guy to make a team? Oh, I've been, I've been in workouts where there was two, there was so many guys. There was two stages. They put the first five kickers in the first stage and the next five kickers in the next one. And this was literally to win a job and to be

their guy. And, you know, I've won some of them and I've lost just as many. And it's, I think the wild thing to me is that the coaches just will literally put you back on a plane and send you right home that day. To me, it's just insane. I remember we had a workout in Cleveland they had lost, I think they were still in their losing streak where they hadn't won in almost two years. Oh, yeah. And their guy was struggling. And we knew it was a workout to come in and replace him. And got a call Sunday afternoon, flew a red eye into Cleveland from L.A., got there at six, went to the hospital to get blood drawn and physical. And by about 9 a.m., I was on the field working out. And I just remember being like, this is what it's like to be a street for agent. It's not a great place to be.

So when you go into a workout like that, and once you have one, you realize you've been on the other side, I would imagine, seeing guys come for your job. And now you're on the side where you're trying to take someone's job. Would you say you're kind of just numb to the whole process now? I mean, it's still, we're all humans, but is there still an element where you're like, damn, this is kind of crazy every time you're part of it? At this point, yeah, I would definitely say I'm numb to that aspect of it. But I think you have to really want it in order to continue to live that lifestyle. Because unlike any other position, there's only one of. us on a given team. There's no backups. There's no guys on practice squads until this year.

But there's no guys on practice squads. There's no backups. You're either the starter or you're unemployed. And I think that's just such a unique position in sports because pretty much every other position across all sports, there's usually a substitute or a guy in reserve that's ready to come up and play if the starter is struggling. And the starter doesn't get fired. They just get demoted, a temporary demotion. So our lifestyles is pretty crazy in that aspect. And I guess it makes up for the fact that we don't have to hit and grind in the trenches like they do. So unlike another position, where even this year, and I think kind of moving forward, I would imagine they expand the practice squads to let you saw Des Bryant like this year was on a practice squad.

Like a position player, they get to keep practicing and kind of honing their skills for you. You're either on the squad or off it. What do you do? You go out to a park? Like, how do you stay locked in kicking? It's tough. What do you find a long snapper? Right.

This year's tough too because, you know, parks are closed. They're not letting you on the field. Nobody's really opening the facilities. Usually you can go to a community college or a place with NFL size uprights and practice. But this year, you know, you can't really get on fields. There's a guy you probably remember him, John Carney, who trains kickers. He lives in San Diego. So I'm only about an hour away from there.

So I'll go down and I have a good relationship with him. But he's kind of the West Coast kicking whisperer. And you'll get guys in a group where you can get a snap and a hold. And he provides field access. So he's been a good mentor for that. I feel for those guys around the country where they're literally trying to break into college field so they can just get on there and do their work. It's not like normal times. What would you say the percentage of kicking is mental to physical? I think over 50% is mental. I mean, if you and me put a number on it, I would say physically it's about 30% and 70% is total mental.

I mean, you can go practice and, you know, make 20 straight kicks, but, you know, your first kick in the game, you'll miss. And that's just to me, that's totally the moment, the pressure, whatever other outside contributing factors that you feel during the game that you don't feel during practice. So to me, I would say it's about 70% mental. Like you would be considered having a pretty strong leg, right, since coming out of college. Would you say, were you 31, 32 right now? Is your leg strength any different than it was like your rookie year in 2012? Not at all. I'm probably stronger now.

I'm in better shape. You know, the older you get and the more the sports nutrition has developed. I mean, I look back at my body composition when I was a rookie to now. And I'm in such better shape and I'm able to bounce back quicker. And it's just the mentality has to be the same throughout. And that's been the process for me is to keep that mentality just as good as it was when I was a rookie. And there's ways you can do that, sports performance coaches. Over to my shoulder, you'll see Bob Rottella, who's a famous golf sports performance coach.

I went and saw him a few years ago and he's helped other athletes. So it's a process and it's something you have to contribute your time and effort into getting better at. Is that like if we were using golf as an analogy like a pre-shot routine? Are you talking about like when you're kicking or just in general? Yeah. So Bob Ritella's whole thing is getting lost in the process. And there's so many similarities between a golf shot and kicking because we're kind of on our own little island. And so for me, it's always been about the process.

Control what you can control. And then once your ball, your foot beats the ball. it's over. You've done everything you possibly can to make that outcome go your way. And you have to take solids and comfort in knowing that and really focusing on that rather than, hey, did it go in or not? That's a tough part. So I would imagine you feel like your mindset and understanding of what it takes to kick now is light, you're stronger than it was like you were a pro bowler as a rookie, right? Do you feel stronger mentally now, you know, I mean, close to a decade later? Absolutely. And especially going through the real highs and the real lows of this profession, you kind of realize that, you know,

somewhere in the middle lies the comfortability and the way you want your career to go. You don't really need to ride the huge highs and really get down on yourself when it's bad. It's kind of right in that middle sweet spot of just saying, hey, I'm really good at my job. I'm a lead at my job, actually. And I can do it in any condition in any situation. So if I'm having a bad day, I'll be fine. If I'm having a great day, I'm still fun. Well, I'm fascinated by kickers because we understand like how a linebacker or a star point guard like those guys start balling out you know in high school and it's just everyone wants to ball or to score points or to hit home runs but with a kicker it's kind of unique I mean your story before you get to college do you are you a soccer player uh obviously you're playing

I would imagine on the high school football team but how do you become a kicker oh I was always a soccer player I've never played an actual position or are down of football outside of being a kicker and you know halfway through my high school career, I just got so burnt out of soccer and I kind of realized that wasn't really taking it anywhere. And buddy said I should try kicking, had a strong leg. And it just kind of clicked for me, that that adrenaline rush and that excitement of, hey, there's one play that'll either the outcome will be either good or bad. And soccer, there's a million plays. And nobody remembers the outcome and nobody can pinpoint one. The score is one to nothing, right? Right. Yeah, exactly. And I love that aspect of it.

I started to get recruited. I remember you and I were talking about this earlier. Coaches would come into our high school. And one of the most notable ones was Nick Saban. He would, he had just started coaching in Alabama. And I mean, I think they were projected to not even come close to being an SEC championship that year. And he came and recruited me and said, hey, would you like to be our kicker? And I just remember thinking, I have all these other big offers from big programs that are successful and really humming right now. why would I go at Alabama? And, you know, jokes on me two years later, they're holding up a national title trophy and, you know, I never got to plan that. So it's, it's funny how recruiting

works that way. You were from born and raised in Florida, right? Yes. Yeah. So that's either your junior or senior year. You're a really big deal for kicker, right? I mean, is every team could you have gone anywhere? Like Urban Myers at Florida at the time, Pete Carroll's at USC. Like, are they coming after you? Absolutely. I was kind of in the golden age of like high school kicking scholarship. too. We had just started to have all those showcase programs where college coaches could actually come out and watch you at a showcase and offer you on the spot. I know they can't do that now. The rules have changed. You're saying it was just kickers at like this camp, just kicking away. Just kickers. Like kickers and punters showcase. And I mean, you'd have 15 to 20 guys get offered

at that showcase. And I mean, nowadays, you get 15 or 20 offers nationally year round for a kicking class. So it's, I was definitely in that golden age of like, even if you were just above average, going to get an offer for scholarship to a big school. But I was fortunate enough where I was, I was pretty elite. And I just remembered that the recruiting process was insane. How did you decide on going to Georgia? I wanted to play in the SEC. And I actually, my goal was I wanted to play in the pros. And I went and looked at what schools kicked the most, what guys, you know, had a good track record of putting kickers in the pros and played good football. And Georgia kind of fit all those things for me. So yet, it was always a goal for me to take kicking from college to the pros.

So I definitely let that factor into my decision. Was there like a welcome to the SEC moment in a game when you were young? You're like, holy shit, this isn't high school anymore. I remember we were playing. Did you kick as a true freshman? Like, did you start right away? Yeah, I kicked as a true freshman. We were playing Tim Tebow in Jacksonville in the world's largest outdoor cocktail party.

Yeah. And me and a couple of other kickers are just stretching. And I have my head down. And all of a sudden I hear this huge roar. And I don't even really pick my head up. I just look to the left. And I see this big, like, almost lineman looking leg running by me with a knee brace on. And I'm just like, what's going on?

I flip my head all the way up. And it's Tim Tebow. And I was just like, well, they don't make guys like that in high school. And, I mean, he just continued to run all over us that day. And I don't think we see. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, But encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

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A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you'll say. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

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or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast, Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

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They were humming and they had more pros than we did. And we had a tonne. Yeah, our school was always known for having a ton of guys drafted and a lot of talented guys that always didn't reach their potential in college, but got drafted and they kind of crushed it in the pros. So I think we take pride in that. So you said you want to be a pro going into college and then you're playing and all these guys are getting drafted every year. But those guys are receivers, quarterbacks, linemen, right? Was there a moment that Mark Rick or your special teams coach? you know, obviously you dream about doing it, but when does it kick in? Like, I can be an NFL

kicker while you're playing in college. I mean, Mark Rick kind of brought me into his office when I was a true freshman. I had won the job. And he just, we had a conversation. And a great man, great human being. He's everything that he preaches to be, which is very rare in this world. He just kind of had a conversation with me. And it was like, look, if you want to be professional, there's certain things that you have to sacrifice in college to get to that level. And I remember that conversation hit home for me and I kind of just took off from there. And it wasn't always smooth. You had your bad days, bad games and good games. But I always stuck back to that conversation when he told me that I won the job and that I could really take this to the next level because he'd seen

tons of guys do it. So that really meant the world to me at that point. Did you ever have any like, quote unquote, devastating misses in college that cost you guys a big SEC game? I mean, my last kick in college was to, I had made two to keep extending the game. The third one was to extend it further and I missed it. So my last college kick was a game winner that I missed. So it's not the best way to go. But was that the ball game? Yeah. Bull game. Yeah. Who are you guys playing? Kirk Cousins and the Michigan State Spartan. Wow. Small world. Okay. So we have the car payment, the rent, utilities, and the repair bill. What should we do?

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The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. So college, you're done. Going into the draft process, do you go to combine invite? Do you expect to get drafted? kind of what was that process like? That's probably has to be a pretty big whirlwind from going to the SEC to kind of thrown into that pressure cooker. Right. Well, it's funny you said that though.

That's what I liked about the SEC is that it kind of was a pressure cooker. We never had games that didn't matter. So I wasn't in one of these conferences where you're playing two to three games a year that matter. And the SEC, almost every single one of them is big time. And I found it funny that when I went to the pros, the crowd and the atmosphere was so much less intense, actually. Whereas you get these guys from mid-range and smaller schools. And they're like, like, oh my gosh, the NFL, that's, you know what's funny about that is Phil Savage, who was a GM in the league and worked for Ozzie Newsom forever. Now he's on Joe Douglas' staff told me, when he was a GM, he'd see all these guys

that they had just drafted or young players be super nervous for preseason games. And he'd walk up to him. He's like, you played at LSU. He's like, you played at Florida. They're going to be half the stands. This is a preseason game. No one even cares. Like, why are you nervous?

Like, you've played in games that trump this. You played in spring games that matter more than this. Right. It's wild to see. Yes. I mean, yeah, you have spring games. There's 95,000 people in the stands. You're going, this feels like a regular game.

And then you go to the pros and there's 35 and you're going, I can't, you know, we can lose four of these and still make the playoffs. So like you lose one in college, your year's done. Yeah. So then leading up to before the draft, did you expect to be picked? Where were you thinking? Did you have a good idea of like the teams that were interested or was just kind of, we'll see where the chips may fall?

It was kind of an interesting year. I came off a poor senior season, which was obviously capped by that miss. And so I knew that when I went to the combine and all these other individual workouts, that I had to crush it to kind of get my quote unquote draft stock back. Is that because you were pressing going in, knowing the draft was kind of common? Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely attribute that to the senior year thing.

Because I toyed around coming out after my junior year because I felt like I was ready to go. And I just, you know, I was ultimately, you know, convinced to come back and try to work on my thing or work on my technique. and everything, but you think looking back, if you would come out after a junior year, because you were six-round pick, would you have been picked higher than that or probably around the same? I guess it's hard to tell. It's hard to say. I think the way I look at it is if I come out after my junior year, I don't think I was actually ready. So I think the senior year struggles and the senior year up and down, really good games, really bad games, kind of prepared me for life in the NFL. So I've thought about that to this day. I'm not exactly sure if I left after

my junior year, I would have the same success that I had after leaving after your senior. But I knew going into all these individual workouts and, you know, where they bring the special teams coach and sometimes the GM, I knew that going into these workouts, that was going to have to, I was going to have to make a team, quote unquote, fall in love with me and say, hey, that's our guy. And so I treated each one of these workouts like it was game day. And, you know, you end up having 10 to 12. You kind of get a good idea of who's interested. But I'm sure you've heard this before. The team you think is the most interested going into draft day is never the one that drafts you. And so I had four teams.

I was like, it's going to be one of these four teams that drafts me. Little that I know, I got drafted by the team that was not in those four. So it's just funny. What was the moment getting the call like? I mean, that had to be, you know, probably one of the most special things you'll ever have in your life, right? Absolutely. I've seen my mom get very emotional only a few times in my life regarding sports.

And that was one for me where I was like, wow, she, you know, she's seeing a dream of mind come to a realization. And it's just, it's an emotional moment. You know, I didn't want to have a big party or gathering or get together. because you hear those stories of guys who do it and don't get drafted. And it's also not really in my personality. But it's just, it's a really special moment. And for all the guys who have been drafted, we all probably have the same thing.

It's a moment of validation by the NFL. And you feel that like, hey, I actually do belong in this league. Yeah, I'd say for as crazy as like the NFL, once you're in it and the business aspect and people getting cut and coaches getting fired, it is probably just one of the purest couple three-day stretches in the league. league where it's just teams are excited to have a guy, guys are excited to be there. It's just very kind of like, you know, you go back to like Little League or, you know, junior Peewees or whatever. It just feels very pure and natural. Then once you get to OTAs and stuff, it just completely changes again. But you're no longer a draft pick at OTAs. You're the,

lowest guy on a totem pole rookie. That's what your job is. So you get drafted. They just released, was it Ryan Longwell? Was the kicker, right? And so, you know, sometimes a late round pick at other positions, you never know if you're going to make the team. Are you thinking right away? I'm starting kicker or you go into camp thinking I got to earn the position? What did they tell you? Yeah, I thought that I still had to earn it. And our head coach was Leslie Frazier at the time, who is one of my favorite people going. Coach Frazier told me when I was a rookie, he said, look, we released Ryan Longwell, who was an excellent kicker with an excellent career. He's like, we released him not because we thought you were

necessarily straight up better than him. We released him because we want you to get all the opportunities in camp, in OTAs, in preseason games. We want you to have as many live. reps as possible going into our, you know, our first opening game. And so I always appreciated that. And I think that's probably the way if I were a special teams coach, head coach, general manager, that's how I would do it for a young guy that I drafted. I'd want him to give as many opportunities as possible rather than compete against player B who's probably not on his level. And so for me, I just, I always felt like I still had to earn the job, though, because he basically told me you still have to earn it. You know, you bring up that word rep. And I think a lot of people in football

say it a lot. When I say the word, you get a rep. Does that for a kick or does that mean a kick? Does that mean? What does that mean to you? Yeah, a singular kick. Yeah, that's how we look at it too. But necessarily like a live kick 11 on 11 or could it just be you. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. To expand on that, yes. A rep for us is like a live snap holding kick while there's protection and blocking coming at you. So in practice, you usually do it two to three times a week and you probably get a total of 20 reps. And so that was his whole point was that if I bring another guy in here, I'm cutting those 20 reps in half. And that's, you know, that's not enough to really see how good you are and really get you prepared. You the kickoff guy too?

Kickoff guy too. So how do you balance? Would you say field goals? Like, what's the ratio there of focus on kicking field goals to kicking off? You kick off much less because there's such a wide range of variability from misses in kickoffs. Like you could miss hit one and it could still go eight deep and it's a touchback. You miss hit a field goal. It's missed. Yeah. So for us, you practice kickoffs much more infrequently. And it's also much more of a violent motion, which I don't think people will realize. To get the ball down the field, 75 yards, you have to really get pretty violent with your swing and your form, whereas field goals is much more of a composed thing and a much more rhythm and tempo. I remember when I left Fresno State to get to the NFL, the one thing that's

pretty jarring, and you know this at Georgia is like, in college, guys don't come and go, right? Your team going and trying to get injured or whatever, but your squad. your 100 man squad or 105 guys is your squad once you get to an NFL training camp guys are going in and out and cut workouts was that experience eye opening were you just dead focused on making kicks what was the you remember your first training camp and just the whirlwind that that was especially being a you know a drafted rookie kicker yeah I definitely remember the first training camp and the and seeing these guys each day you know you'd have three or four guys get cut and then the next thing you know three or four new guys are in you're like wait what happened to

my R5 on kickoff. They're like, oh, he was released yesterday. And you're just like, huh? You know, whereas in college, you know guys there for four or five years. Yeah. And I think the thing that's understated about the NFL compared to college is we were talking about this earlier on the intensity level. In college, you never really feel like people's jobs are on the line because at the end

of the year, coaches are assessed and, you know, players don't get cut in college. In the NFL, you're always like, man, we're one or two bad weeks stretches away from players getting cut, coaches getting fired, and that brings a different type of intensity to the NFL that college lacks, I would say. So when in that camp were you officially told that you were the starting kicker? When final cuts were made after the fourth preseason game. Was there another kicker there?

Did you have a pretty good idea? So you knew that like you were probably at a good show. Right. Well, the thing for me too is that I had had just an average preseason. We didn't have a lot of attempts and the only and the only, And the only couple long ones we had, I had missed. So I had confidence going into the first week, but not, you know, an overabundance of confidence. So when they told me that I was actually going to be the guy, that definitely boosted me.

Well, then you took that confidence. You were a pro bowler. You were, according to Wikipedia, you went 10 of 10 on 50 plus yard field goals. How do you go from just kind of having a shaky senior year preseason to having a pro bowl rookie season in the NFL? How does that happen? it's just a lot of self-belief and a lot of work. And I think having that bad senior year kind of put it in perspective for me of how close this dream is to not becoming a reality.

And so I felt that every day that I walked in, it sounds corny, but I felt that every day I walked into that really old and rickety Minnesota Vikings facility that it was a, it was a privilege. And it was something that I just was honored to be a part of. And so the next thing you know, you're playing in your first game, you're like, this is a reality now for me. How do I continue to stay here and have success? So would you say, were you getting better coaching?

Were you any better? Was it just the mentality, you think, and the confidence? Mentality, it's also easier in the pros when your entire job is football. So, like, you get there at 7.30 in the morning for a meeting. I don't have to leave the facility until I feel that my day is done. I'm not leaving the facility for classes, you know, group projects, nothing. I'm literally there for as long as I want to get as better as I want. And I love that aspect of the fact that you can really just grind

way and find different ways to get better. And as my years progressed and sports science got better, you found different avenues to recover quicker, get stronger, eat better, everything. So for a kicker, like what, you know, I think most people, the casual fan knows the players go to, they go to film, they go to practice, they hit a little bit, they come back, they watch a little more film. I have a good idea, but like tell just people that are listening like what, what is a kid, like on a Wednesday, first day of practice, the team gets, what's your day? Like what time you get in there? What are you doing? What kind of film are you looking for on film? What are you doing? For us, when we would get there, we always made it a habit. And I spearheaded this is that I wanted to be in all of the special teams meetings, not just fuel goal and kickoff. I wanted to be in a punt, punt return, kickoff return. So I could kind of at least show the other guys and the team, any other guys in the special teams that, hey, everything that I could be part of, I'm here for. But after our meetings, we would usually go work out.

because that's when everybody else goes to their specific position meetings and they break down film and break down what they have to do for that game day or that practice day. We would go work out and get that in and get that done. And then we would figure out what we have to do for practice at that point. But once practice started, we were always kind of in our own world. We were always on a different field, trying to find space, trying to get enough reps in before our actual live reps in practice. So yeah, like you mentioned earlier, we're never hitting. we're never, you know, part of the weird team stretches, none of that. We're just kind of in our own world.

Was there a pretty stark difference of when, obviously, Leslie's personality than when Zimmer comes in for you? Like, was it a different feel, a different vibe? I know you just hearing you talk pretty serious about your job, not a screw around guy, so guys like that, I appreciate it. But it does feel like there's a different intensity that Mike Zimmer walks into the building with every day than maybe Leslie Frazier. Definitely different intensity, but, I mean, obviously both very good at,

what they do just in different forms. Leslie was much more calming and much more, you know, of a figurehead presence. And, you know, Mike was obviously much more involved in the defense and was definitely more intense. But both are really good coaches and are at excellent what they do. But for guys like us, we don't try to get too caught up in that because it doesn't change our job at all. Nope. The head coach is not changing how you kick a field goal. They're not changing your kickoff scheme. None of that. So we have to kind of literally live in our own secluded world of how we approach our job. And then you go on, I think in 2015, you sign a contract to be one of the highest paid

kickers in the league. So your career is going really well. And I would say, you know, you guys go on to have a really good team with Teddy Bridgewater and you're playing the playoff game that's kind of crazy, right, because you guys have this new stadium coming. So you're playing outdoors. I remember Cam Chancellor said he had frostbite on his fingers after that game. Really?

I had forgotten kind of how the way that game played out. You were three of three before that. you know, the game ending. What's it like just being in that game how cold it was, you know, what was it like sitting? And for you, you don't, you know, you don't play that much. So you're on the sideline a lot. Was that the coldest thing you've ever experienced in your life? Ever. And we were fortunate the week before we'd played the Giants. And it was, I want to say like in the single digits it kick off. So we had a little bit. It wasn't minus seven, but it was in the single digits. Honestly, the hardest part about that game was not the game. It was the warm up. Because in a warm up,

You want to stay on the field for about, you know, 20 to 30 minutes warming up and getting your, your rhythm down. And for us, you're talking like two and a half hours before the game. Two and a half hours for the game. Yeah. It was so cold that you would go out to kick a ball and then you'd have to quickly kick another one. And then you'd have to run back to the heater because you were losing feeling in your extremities. And you're like, you know, I'm never going to do that in the game. So why would I practice that pregame? So that was the biggest pain in the butt was just running back and forth from the heater to the field to get the warm up process in. And that's when you kind of knew that the whole day was going to be an attrition of wants more. So you had made kicks that game. How were you staying warm on the sideline? You just staying by the heater with your foot, your hands? I mean, what's just living on the heater?

They had heated benches too, which is great. Always trying to move. That's the biggest thing. You can't sit still when you're in cold weather or else it just makes it worse. But yeah, living on the heater. It was so, I've told the story before. It was so cold that and I stood in front of the heater so much. that my leg hair burned onto my tights.

So when I took my tights off, patches of hair just came off. And it just was, it was one of those brutally, brutally cold days. So if you're having a kick, if we use the golf analogy, like if you make a put on hole eight,

it does feel a lot different than a hole 18, that's your last hole, right, if the money's online, do you feel a lot different when you come into a game in a situation like in that playoff game?

And you'd kick game winners before and miss game winners, whatever, like you said in college, you feel obviously a playoff. game, the intensity of that moment, but it's also freezing cold. Like, what are you thinking when you go out there? Because you had already made kicks that day. You feel good, I would imagine, right? Yeah, you feel good. You feel like, you know, especially being three for three, you walk into the kick going, you know, full of confidence. And I think the cool thing about game winners is that

each year rare opportunity to actually change the game with your one single play. You know, you're not a quarterback, you're not a running back. You're not on defense. You can't, you don't always have that opportunity to have the spectacular game-winning play. And so that's what game-winning kicks are for us, is that it's our opportunity to, you know, come out of the obscurity and kind of show what we can do. So for me, it was, you know, it was obviously devastating that that kick didn't go my way and I didn't make it. I think the toughest part about those moments is that you feel as if you let your team down. You don't care about necessarily the outside factors. You care more about the fact that you got guys that are, you know, grinding throughout the entire game, putting their bodies in the line to win

the game. And then there you are. You've had five or six reps. And that last one doesn't go your way. That's the toughest part to get over is that, you know, is to make yourself feel like you're part of the team again after that. That's the toughest part. And it takes a lot of good teammates and a lot of good human beings to kind of help you get through that. Because remember, you know, I've been on both sides of them. I've made the game winner where they're all celebrating the locker room. And then I've been on the side where you miss him and nobody really wants to talk to. you. So it just, when you're surrounded by great guys, it makes it a lot easier. But it's definitely a brutal aspect of our job is that we do rarely have those plays where it's all eyes on us,

you know, make it or not. I know, so you go in that locker room. Obviously, everyone's freezing cold, but you just lose a playoff game. Do you feel like, do you feel like you're on an island? Like everyone's kind of looking at you or, I mean, I know it's a team game. And, you know, the coaches say it, but you're a human. I mean, he just missed the kick. I mean, you feel like I just, what's that feeling like? I think that thing that helped me the most was that A, there was a lot of good teammates surrounding me. And B, I had a really good career with Minnesota.

So it wasn't like I was some guy who had never really proven himself that just missed in the biggest moment of his career. It was more along the lines of, dude, you're really good. You had a bad moment. And you can move on from it. And so that helped me mentally move on from it more than anything was that the guys made me feel like, hey, you really are still a good kicker.

got a great career. How long does that take going into next season kind of just are you able to block that out or is that something that kind of lingers? Because, you know, the way the media is and fans, I mean, it's just a talking point that shit, it never goes away. I mean, you saw it with the Bears a couple years ago. It's just in a playoff game because so many people are watching, it just, it takes a while to shake it, especially in that home market, right? I mean, it's funny. It doesn't, and I'm sure the guy the other, the Chicago kid would tell you the same thing. It doesn't take you a while to shake it. It's the process of that anytime you don't have success, that's brought up and that's rationed for the reason of why you're not having success. And that's the toughest part where you're

like, hey, this is a different year. This is a different kick. This is a different situation. It is nothing to do with the prior kick. And I think that's the most difficult part to move through is that, hey, whenever you do fail, you're going to have that extra bit of attention, scrutiny, or you know, people trying to tell you that it's involved with the last kick and it's not. Did you feel like your normal self the next season? Or was that just? Yeah, I was ready to go. Yeah.

I felt good. I felt good. The moment the first preseason kick was made, I was like, sweet. I feel good. And just started rocking and rolling. And then like as the season goes on, every time, like you said, if you miss one kick, even though you have this entire resume of like, I've been good, did it feel like maybe, I mean, the media and the fans a little bit were like turning on you?

that's not how I ever looked at it. I feel like I've had a pretty good perspective of this. I think if you want to be a kicker in the NFL, you have to sign up for that stuff. You have to sign up for the fact that you can be the absolute goat in these situations and you could also be the hero of the situation. So I never looked at it that way. I mean, I'm mad enough to say that that next year,

if I had made more kicks, I'd still be in Minnesota Viking, but I didn't start off as well as I wanted to. And then everything combined with that, I understood why what happened happened. You know what's crazy and like, I mean, the greatest kicker ever, Vinatari was it two years ago was missing all the extra points and it was a devastating.

Gutskowski this year with the Titans was his resume speaks for itself and he's struggling to make kicks. It's like a little bit, probably like a corner on an island, but a kicker because like you're actually either going to score a point or not or three points. Right. Yeah. It's just like everyone's kind of watching the coach. It's got to be a unique pressure.

That's why I'm fascinated talking. Like I, you know, Carson Palmer told me the one thing he missed about being a quarterback was all the pressure every day he walked into the building. Just like everyone looks at him. As a kicker, it's a little different because you don't, not everyone's looking at you every day, but on game day, there's all these situations where they are kind of like, you're either going to save the drive, save the game. Is that something like you said that built up through your senior year?

But I would imagine on the NFL level, does that just kind of build to the calluses? Do you think that senior year experience helped you handle, you know, kind of a shitty situation that just snowballed on you in Minnesota. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that pressure that Carson was speaking about, it's almost becomes an addiction where you're like, I try to find it in my life. That's why I'm continuing to try to play in the NFL is that I still have that ability and that talent. And I love that feeling of being part of this pressurized, intense situation where you have to perform in order to help your team, keep your job, have success, whatever it is. And that's a feeling that never really goes away. And I know a lot of players that are that transition

and out continue to talk about how difficult that is to replace. And for me, it's just, you know, that's the feeling I miss the most about playing in the NFL is that pressure and intensity of, you know, everything I do is being looked at and matters. And that's tough when you're on a field practicing, you know, in front of a community college by yourself. I've always thought the NFL of the three major sports just because how easy it is to get cut and contracts are, even though you guys make way more money than the average guy. It is relatable in the sense that, you know, people, like I've been fired.

I know a lot of people that go bankrupt or, you know, people have tough times. You just lose it all. And it's just like you either bounce back or you don't. And I think like you were a guy that's one of the highest pay kickers to, you know, a couple years later, you're cut, right, in the season from Minnesota. I mean, that is a relatable thing to a lot of people, you know, I'm just to go through times that, you know, are a little out of their control, also in their control, however you want to put it.

But, you know, I think that really makes the NFL unique to, I think, the fan base of just, you know, kind of seeing guys, highs and lows of their career and, like, legitimately lose their job. Yeah, I mean, you're spot on on that and the fact that and a lot of that has to do with the NFL's contracts and the fact that there's not a lot of guaranteed money tied up in NFL players. So the moment it kind of goes the wrong way and the team feels like they can get out from underneath your contract. They do. Where you look at a sport like baseball that's fully guaranteed, they're going to keep that guy around for as long as possible until he figures it out again because they've already sunk so much money into him. they continue to have to anyway. So whether he's on their team or not, they're still going to pay him.

Whereas in the NFL, it's kind of like, we've paid you 50% of your contract already. We're okay with letting the other 50% go because you're struggling for us. So, you know, that's the most brutal part about the business. And that's what probably makes us more relatable than other professional athletes and the fact that there's a lot of volatility in our job, in our jobs. When you got the news that you were being released from the Vikings, was it something you saw coming? Was it just did it come out of left field?

How did you, what was that day like? I mean, saw it coming to an extent. Like I mentioned earlier, I was not performing well enough to keep my job. So I understood the decision. But it's tough. You know, you're with an organization for at that point, almost six years. And, you know, they're the organization that drafted you and believed in you. And you've been through this whole process with them.

And then, you know, nobody prepares you for the fact that one day you're in the facility and the next day it's over. There's no access to it. there's no nothing. You know, you're almost ostracized immediately. And that's the toughest part about when you lose your job in the NFL is that you go from being so involved and so part of this community team-based thing to all of a sudden you're on your own again. And that's tough. How long does it take you kind of gather yourself and realize like, I'm going to have other opportunities? Did you kick the rest of that year? I know the next year you're in Seattle, but how did that, how does handling it? Because you come from a position,

you're one of the highest recruiter kickers in the country, if not the most. They drafted to highly paid to pro bowl to all of a sudden out of a job. Yeah. For me, I had a couple of offers to go and kick that year, whether it was to fill in for somebody or replace somebody who was struggling. And for me, I wanted to take a step back for the rest of that year because there's only about a month left in the season. And I wanted to really go into 2017, fully ready to go with a new team, with a new scenario,

and not try to have to replace somebody on the fly or fill in on the fly. Because I knew the next shot was probably going to be my last real attempt to kind of get the career back. And so that was smart, I think, by me to forego that opportunity, the rest of 2016 and be really ready for 2017. So a couple of years later now, sitting where you're sitting, do you feel like, do you expect to still get like a fair shot in an offseason to go to a training camp or is just an unknown? like this year you get a shot with the Saints and then the season ends and then now you're sitting here it's kind of a weird time anyway I mean for e-sies not for another month but and who knows with OTAs but how do you come to grips with like the unknown I mean the unknown is crazy because you will still want to kick and the good thing I guess with kickers is not the same amount

like at other positions come in every year like you could easily just all of a sudden be a starting kicker this year or it'd be hard of some other positions right if you've been you know kind of in and out of the league it's all about opportunity for us if if the right one hits and and a team as an opening or, you know, has a spot for you to come and compete. That's, that's the perfect scenario. And for me, like I mentioned earlier, I feel like I'm in the best shape going and which is such a cliche, but it's the true. It's the truth. I feel like I'm the best shape of my career. I feel really good mentally because I'm at the point where like this is all gravy. I know I'm still really good and I can still contribute. But I've had a career. I don't

have that pressure on myself of like, I have to make it. I have to make it. For me, it feels like I miss it and I love it. And I'm still really good at. it and I want that opportunity to continue to do it, but I don't have to make it. So that's a good mental mindset for me right now. And, you know, there's some teams that are going to have some competitions this year. And, you know, as long as I can get in there and compete, I know I can hold my own with anybody. What do you think the hardest part is just getting the call? I mean, your resume is your resume? Do they just, is it kind of luck of the draw at this point? Like, how did the Saints thing materialize?

It's a little bit of luck of the draw. It's kind of like, you know, which coaches like you, I mean, you know, you've been on staffs, which staffs have you higher graded than other guys that are out there? It just depends on what a team is looking for. If a team needs a guy with veteran experience that's seen everything, I'm your guy. And I'm still pretty young at 31. But if a team wants for, you know, to mold a guy and to really develop a guy, then I'm probably not your guy. So it just depends on what a team is looking for and what needs I suit for them. So it'll be interesting to see who's interested in this offseason.

Did you rub some elbows with Dan Campbell when you were in New Orleans? He's a head coach now. My guy do stay. Dave Fip, I'm a Cal Poly guys up there too. Cal Poly guys. I mean, when I say my time in New Orleans, I was almost quarantined into a hotel. They would allow us into a facility once a week, twice a week to just, you know, to kick by ourselves. And, you know, there was a snapper there with me.

So he was, he was fun to be with. But it just, it was such a unique experience. You never really felt like you're part of them. You know, one big difference between a professional. athlete and just a normal person is, you know, they kind of start their career once college ends, right? You just start working into whatever industry you're in and kind of work your way up. And it's something for most businesses you can do to, you know, 60, 7 years old. Your career, let's just hypothetically say, knock on what this doesn't happen.

If you never play in the NFL again, you start going like, what's my career now? Like what, what does that, how often does that cry? Like, what am I going to do? Is there something that you're passionate about that you want to do? Is it one of those that you want to get back into football? You know, what, how do you come to grips with going like, God, this might just be over? Well, that's the funny thing as you mentioned it. You're almost in that reverse, you're almost like Benjamin Butt. You're in that reverse career stage of life.

Like when you leave college, you're supposed to try a bunch of things to figure out what you're good at and what you love to do. When I left college, I was thrown into what I love to do and what I am good at. Now that, you know, you're on the other side of your career could be over. You're kind of trying to figure out what am I good at and what do I, want to do. So for me, I actually used the whole quarantine time. I was four classes short of my degree. So I went back and got my degree and, you know, kind of just going to go from there. I was supposed to do the NFL broadcast boot camp in last, jeesh, last April. And that whole thing was canceled. And we'll see. We'll see what I'm going to do next. Well, you got the broadcast hair.

I mean, Jay Feely is on it. So you definitely could do it. I appreciate that. Well, I mean, I was a communications major at Georgia and we did a bunch of on-camera work and all that broadcast journalism type stuff. So it's something that I'm interested in, but I don't know to be honest. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't stop trying to play NFL football until they drag you until your leg falls off. You know, you have the rest of your life to do whatever. There's only a finite time that you can do this because your body says that. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from my journey from. basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us every. everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. You figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court,

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, lover, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a perimenopausal chin here you do. So let's talk about it. Join me on my new podcast.

How hard can it be with Deanna Maria Riva, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that Ness was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45. How can it be getting naked at 50 with the new guy? That one's kind of hard, you know?

Well, that's lighting. They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter, and dive into it, unfiltered and unbothered and ask, how hard can it be? I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of My Cultura Podcast Network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. People love telling other people in sports to retire. Like, it's just like, well, everyone on the outside, we're all jealous.

We wish we could just play something for a living or even attempt it, you know. I mean, you know Tom Brady's playing until the wheels fall off. So, I mean, the people who keep thinking is going to retire, keep waiting. The good thing about kicking, though, is you can kick, you know, it is probably the one position where you could probably be more. much better in your 30s than you were in your 20s once it kind of mentally clicks, right? Vinotary, Gakowski, those guys have a couple examples that had incredible, you know, careers in their 30s.

And it's funny you mentioned that. The guy that I worked with John Carney that I mentioned earlier, he's a big, he played in the league for 23 years, which is incredible to think about, actually. He actually is a firm believer that a kicker, an NFL kicker doesn't enter their prime until like 29 or 30. And so he believes that those years from like 29 to 35 are the NFL kickers prime. whereas 29 to 35 for any other guy in the NFL is usually on the way out, if not out already. So it's interesting.

In golf, they tell you to visualize, have good thoughts, right? I'm going to hit this straight or I'm going to hit this. Is that a big thing? You know, you're talking about your mental coach with kicking that I'm, do you visualize the good kick? Do you visualize, especially if you're going to hit like a little fade or a little, you know, draw? Absolutely. Do you guys consider that in kicking? Are they fades and draws?

No, we try to hit a black and straight ball. I mean, you know you're missed and you know your tendency. Like sometimes you'll have a tendency for it to either move left or right. And you have to be aware of that, but you're not trying to move it left to right. What's your miss, left or right? I would say as I got older, it would tail left more. Because I hit a more powerful line drive shot. So that'd be a push a little?

That'd be a pull. Oh, pull. Yeah. Oh, left. Okay, I gotcha. I got you. But yeah, our thing is big time visualization. And then the thing that drives me crazy about young kickers is I call it bad body language,

is that you'll see these young guys, they'll be in practice and they'll miss a kick and then they'll, they'll mother F themselves or curse themselves into an oblivion. And I'm going, you're just, you know, over-emphasizing the fact that you just had a bad play. Why would you do that? Just, you know, kind of carry on, move on and visualize the next one of having success. So to me, it's more the bad body language and the outwardly signs of like, I'm in despair. Those are the ones you got to eliminate. Did you have that positive reinforcement that come naturally to you? Or is that something you had to come? Yeah, I was always raised that way to never get too emotional about sports

and your performance in them and that, you know, life's bigger than just sports. So to me, I never really looked at it as like, oh, my gosh, I missed a kick. Shame on me. And my parents never raised me that way. They were always super supportive and, you know, kept it real with me, but never made me feel like I had to do well in sports. You think back to the SEC thing, kicking at Georgia and just in the SEC, the pressure cook that is made the NFL the pressure is good and bad?

come a lot easier for you, just knowing how crazy that was. Like, did you feel when you were missing kicks your senior year? Like, could you hear the noise? Oh, yeah. See, the programs that like Georgia and Florida and Bama, they're covered the same way, if not more than professional programs. So you hear that noise and you have the interviews every single week about, you know, what happened last week? What happened with that kick? So you definitely feel that intensity. But the good thing about those schools too is that they are really good at propping you up when you're doing well. So, you know, early on in my Georgia career when I'm crushing it, they were definitely there kind of promoting me and making me feel like, hey, I actually do belong. And so that's the two sides

of it for me that it is positive and is negative. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see children. They see children. treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky.

treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bag's daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere.

Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off. Ah, but looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes! That's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. Visit NHTSA.com. Slash the right seat. Brought to you by Nitzha and the Ad Council. Who is the most talented player you were around in the NFL? Adrian Pearson, easily.

Free, you all. Just free. Never seen anybody built like him. Never seen anybody that big. that can cut that fast. I don't understand that. And that I was there. My rookie year was his year coming off of the ACL tear.

Did he run for 2,000 yards or something? And he ran for 2,000 yards. And the entire off season, all we're hearing is that, you know, oh, Adrian's, you know, he's not going to be ready for the start of opening camp. He's not going to be ready for the start of opening game. And I'm sitting there watching this guy do these drills on the side and going, I'm no, you know, physical therapist. I'm no rehabilitation expert.

But that guy looks like he's ready to go. He's pulling trainers with him. him on a harness down the field. I'm going, he's not going to not play. I mean, coming from the SEC, we're seeing a guy like that being like, wow, this is a different, this is a different animal here in the, in the NFL. This guy is a freak. He is a freak. I was blessed, though. Do you carry you guys to the playoffs that year with Christian Ponder was a rookie quarterback in 2012? And then our, that was the week 17 game where we played Green Bay. And if we win, we go to the playoffs.

And if we lose, we're out. And he's, I think he's like 15 yards short of the rest of, record or maybe 10 and he gets stopped on third down. We go out there. I kick the game winner. We go to the playoffs. I actually had the question from a media member that said, did you ever think about missing the kick so the game could continue and he could break the rush and I just remember being like absolutely not. That never crossed my mind. But yeah, that was the area. He almost broke it. He was he carried us. I mean, he'd have games where the second play from scrimmage is an 80-yard breakaway touchdown. You're going, that would stop him out.

Best player in college. On my team? Yeah. AJ Green. AJ Green was in my recruiting class, so we came in the same time. Same level of prospect, of course. Yeah, a couple five stars. Yeah.

But AJ was just so smooth. He just destroying people in practice every day? It's funny. I was just about to tell you, there was a practice where he's a freshman and he's playing, and that's kind of unheard of back in 2008. That's kind of unheard of. that a freshman wide receiver gets a lot of playing time. And you guys were so good.

And we were good. We were preseason number one, Stafford, no Sean Marino. But long story short, we're at practice. And you start to hear some DBs chatting up the fact that, you know, they're tired of AJ and the special treatment he's getting. So they're doing one-on-ones. First guy steps up, A.J. Burns him. Second guy steps up.

AJ burns him. Third guy steps up. AJ burns him again. AJ's the quietest, mild manner dude I've never met. Burns the third guy grabs the ball, throws him the ground, point to the first guy goes, he's too slow, point to the second guy goes, he just sucks. And points to the third guy and he goes,

he's not good any good either and walks away. And I've never, I've never let that story leave my mind. It just was perfect. You knew the guy was going to be a stud when he said that. So did he play a lot his freshman year? Yeah, he played a lot. He was our, I think he was our, say it again? Couldn't keep him off the field, huh?

He couldn't keep him out the field. He was their number one and then Mohamed Massacquo. I was our two. God, you guys had a squad. Stafford and running backs. Yeah, one of those dbs that I just mentioned was Rashad Jones, who ended up being one of the best safeties in the NFL for about five years. Crazy. Who was the best kickoff return man that you ever had to kick off to, or during that week, you guys were very focused on. We can not kick to this guy. I mean, there was a couple. You had the guys like Trindon Holiday. He was pretty good. But the return that we focused the most on was definitely and Tyron Matthew when he was at his height of popularity and stardom.

And we played him in the SEC championship game and he housed one. Oh, yeah. And I remember being in the bath because the way the old Georgia dome was, there's no bathrooms anywhere near the sideline. And as a kicker, you're always using the bathroom. I'm in the bathroom underneath the stands. And I knew that we were on punt, so I'm not going to be needed.

So I go to the bathroom and all of a sudden I hear this massive roar. And I'm like, that's not good. Come out of the tunnel watching him, you know, Gallivant to the end zone, just going, this game's over. Who is the best in the NFL? Devin Hester, easy. We had games where we have to scheme kicks. We're like, we can't kick it deep because he's going to house it.

And we'd have to scheme around him. What made him so sweet? It's funny. Cordero Patterson, who's my probably next answer to that question, they both do something where a lot of return, a lot of people think returns is about shiftiness, where, in my opinion, returning is much more about. finding the first cut and then hitting it.

And being really good at finding that first cut and hitting it. And both those guys to me were just exemplary at that. They would find that weakness in the coverage team, exploit it and take it. And you couldn't take them down. I think both those guys too have in common. They have elite speed, but they're built.

I mean, not quite Adrian Peterson, but they are physical freaks where they are going to break soft arm tackles, right? So it's like you better bring your whole body. If you're just getting an arm, they're gone. I mean, CP 84, still kicking ass. He's probably the best returner right now. His rookie year, he was our returner because he wasn't playing much on offense.

And I remember our special teams coach literally had him stand at the back of the end zone and be like any ball that you can get your hands on. Any ball, nine deep, don't care. If you can get your hands on it, take it out. And I just wild. The crazy thing about the NFL is a guy like him. Like clearly being a number one wide receiver and handling all the input is a little too much for him. But once he got lucky enough, some guys just get out of the NFL, right?

He found this niche and he's exploited it and he's just crushed it. And now he's going to go on to probably have like a 12-year career, right? Yeah, and the thing I like about Cordero, too, is that he embraced it. You know, he became a gunner on the punt team. You know, he was a former first round draft pick. And a lot of those guys have that throw out, like, don't put me on special teams, you know, unless I'm returning, I'm not touching special teams. And I always loved that about Cordero, he didn't care. If you wanted to play Gunner and play Gunner, if you wanted them to protect on a punt team,

you do that if he had he was asked so that was cool and that's why he's hung around for so long well thanks man i appreciate you giving me the time and uh absolutely i hope you get a shot i'd be uh be your biggest fan rooting for you to make some kick how's the game how's the golf game coming you know uh i had the worst 2020 uh if i was an NFL player would have been really yeah my game fell apart i think but that's because your bit but that's because your business is going up though yeah but the more i think sometimes golf i think kicking is like the more you play the more you start thinking about you can get worse, you know, sometimes like just relaxing and I got negative fast. I tried all these swing changes.

Play the other day, shot like 80. So it's coming around. I stopped thinking and I started being positive. Oh, yeah. See, I think playing is actually the way to get better. When I go to the range, I end up thinking about a million things and why am I not taking more for divot on that. Next thing you know, that leaks into the game.

You know, but playing for me is the best. Well, you know, most kickers and quarterbacks are like scratch golfers. Is that you? I'm getting there. I wasn't always like, I mean, I grew up playing, but I stopped playing for five years. And so I'm kind of learning it back. But my sister whips my ass.

She's, she played golf. Yeah. Where she played? Miami. God, you guys have an athletic family. Holy moly. Yeah, we tried. The U, Georgia.

Yep. Brother played soccer at Harvard. So it's, yeah, I'm the intellectual mourn of my family. Yeah, well, someone's going to be all over your children. that's for sure. Have them play golf. Right. Oh, yeah.

They're not playing football. That's for damn sure. Easier on the body. Yeah. Thanks, bro. Have a good night. Yeah, of course. You too, brother.

See you, man. See ya. Yeah. a new quarterback. If you're an Eagles fan, you, uh, Jalen Hertz, now your quarterback. See ya. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1-800 Flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination. 1-800 Flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise. Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1-800flowers.com for exclusive offers.

and great values. To order today, visit 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement, Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliver Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes,

creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.