The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 3 and Out - Dan Quinn to Washington, Kyle Shanahan knew Purdy was the future, Leak-Gate in NY

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

John dives into the Commanders hiring Dan Quinn as their new head coach and why even though Quinn wouldn't have been a good hire in Seattle, he works in Washington, what does he bring to Washington, and can he have a future with the Commanders. John also discusses Jed York's comments on how Shanny told him two years ago that Brock Purdy was the future, and how Robert Saleh had a meeting with all of his coaches to find out who the leak within the organization is. 6:27 - Dan Quinn to Washington 19:41 - No more HC openings 20:38 - Kyle Shanahan knew Purdy was the future 32:39 - More problems with the Jets 42:44 - Mailbag 43:05 - Rating the new GM hires 44:30 - Should the Bears trade the number 9 pick 45:19 - How to fix the Jets 51:45 - Would the 49ers be interested in Cousins Follow John on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube for the latest. Check out Gametime - the fastest growing ticketing app in the US, and the official ticketing app of 3 & Out and GoLow -  for tickets to all of your favorite NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA teams. Concert and comedy show tickets, too. Go to Gametime now to create an account, download the app and use code JOHN for $20 off your first purchase. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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John Middilcock, Three and Out podcast. Beautiful Thursday afternoon. Just recording a little podcast about what's going on in the football world. Dan Quinn hired to be the coach of the team in Washington. Jed York said Kyle Shanahan told him two years ago that Brock Purdy was their future starter. and the Jets,

an article that makes them feel like they're falling apart internally, which clearly this year, if you followed them, know they have some issues. So we'll dive into all that. The plan was just to do a big mailbag, but then so much was going on in the league. I'm like, yeah, I'll do a little podcast first before we dive in the mailbag,

but we'll also do a mailbag at John Middlecock as the Instagram, fire in those direct messages. And this will be the last podcast of the week. So nothing on Saturday. So we'll have this podcast for tomorrow and it'll hold us through the weekend. Is there a Pro Bowl game? I don't even know if they're playing the game,

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use your wife's email just do whatever you got to do use that promo code promo code John don't need to thank you appreciate everyone who is using it keep hammering it. Let's dive into the news of the day. The Washington commanders hired Dan Quinn. Now, if you listen to previous podcasts, I thought Seattle, when it looked like all signs were pointing to them hiring him, was crazy because they fired Pete Carroll, who is a legend. National Championship in college, multiple, obviously a Super Bowl, went to another one, resurrected the franchise, to hire one of his former assistants who's not as good as him that brings a similar culture, I didn't love that.

And if you're John Schneider, more than likely, this is your last hire, like, take a big swing. So I understood, like, I think they made the right decision. The easy move would have been hiring the guy you know. If you're John Snyder, get this guy who might be a rocket ship and take a swing. Now, the commanders were in a different spot, because let's face it, when you think they got seven names and hell, there's been reports that they might change it again, there's a toxicity and a negativity around that franchise.

Even though Ron Rivera, high-level guy, good guy, that Dan Snyder stink is all around it. Now, I've said in Seattle, if I was a GM, I would hire Vrable over Dan Quinn. I feel more comfortable with Mike Vrable, the coach. Now, there's more to hiring a coach. Like, there were rumors you didn't get along with anyone. I sided with Vrable on that standpoint of like,

I don't know this GM, but you get guys who aren't exactly, you know, positive on a daily basis. It can wear on owners. And if you look at Josh Harris, the last two coaches he's hired in the NBA, they had history at a high-level coaching. They were successful. Technically, they were, I mean, they're both champions, Doc Rivers and now Nick Nurse. So I think it's fair to assume because I have pretty good knowledge,

not that Adam Peters told me this or anything, but that they wanted, because he did not, that they wanted Ben Johnson, or they were very, very interested in Ben Johnson, as well as they should have been. They got the number two pick in the draft, they're going to take a quarterback, you would think,

so you would want the best offensive coach available. And this wasn't a great cycle for offensive coaches. It was basically all defensive guys, right? Rahim Morris, defensive coordinator. Vrable, defensive guy. Mike McDonald, defensive guy. The dude, the Panthers hired. No one else was hiring him.

So this was a, you know, Antonio Pierce, former linebacker. Jim Harbaugh was really only going to the Chargers, one, and two, he's like this weird hybrid, former quarterback, but he's really wired more like a defensive lineman or a linebacker. So, and let's face it, the commanders weren't in the Jim Harbaugh business, and he wasn't in their business. Him and the Chargers were meant to happen. I do understand hiring a guy that you know can handle, being at the front of the room can be a head coach,

he's done that, and gives you positive momentum. Now, do I think Dan Quinn's upside is a top five, eight coach in the NFL? I do not. But I also think when you look at the available options, they're not going to hire Belichick,

and if Mike Vrable, they're not vibing with him, I don't even know if they interviewed him, which I do think it's a mistake to not interview every guy available. I really do. One thing, you know, I spent time around the Raiders

and good, buddies with Greg Papa who worked for Al Davis for a long time. And one thing Al Davis always did was interview everybody because you're just kind of sealing nuggets. 90% of his interviews I was always told by people around them were just to gather intel. So I don't quite understand not interviewing every single human available when you have a coaching opening. But I do understand the Dan Quinn hire.

I do because there's a negativity and just it's not positive. when you think about the Washington football team commanders. I hate even calling them commanders because I don't even feel like that's going to be their name in five years. So people always say like, why do you keep messing up their name? Because they fucking change their name all the time. But I understand Josh Harris going,

I don't want, if we can't get the number one offensive guy, which literally wasn't available because he went back to work. And even that, right? If he's asking for $17, $15 million a year, it's like, wait, we're going to pay a guy $60, $70 million, and there's no guarantee it's going to work. Though, I'd probably take that risk, but this is a franchise that can't afford.

Like, ultimately Seattle, like, they can afford to swing for the fences. If it doesn't work, whatever, but they've already been kind of at a high level and a positive level with Pete Carroll. This franchise, like, needs to just get the train back on the tracks. If they could just have two straight years of double-digit wins, it's going to be a big deal. I do think he'll just bring some positive momentum to the franchise. Now, from a schematical standpoint, there's no way around it.

That final game in Dallas is hard to forget. But I got news for you, like one bad game as a coach, just like one bad game as an NFL draft prospect, doesn't mean that much. It really doesn't. It's about the total body of work. Dan Quinn is good friends with Steve Kerr. Bob Myers is playing a big role in this search.

Well, Bob Myers, Steve Kerr, Dan Quinn, Adam Peters, John Lynch and Bob Myers are good buddies. Like, there are a lot of connections. I understand this. And if he would have passed on several other, like, you know, if there would have been multiple Ben Johnson's out there and you would have gone with Dan Quinn, I would have thought this was ludicrous.

But just lay out the candidates right now. Like, you're not hired Belichick because you just hired a GM. So Belichick, let's face it. One thing, I think the whole Belichick thing is kind of crazy. But if he's walking into the organization, like, I'm sorry, I kind of need to pick the players. Like, Bill, that's kind of on you. Like, I still think you're a big time coach.

and I think it's crazy that Atlanta didn't hire him. But if his number one thing is, like, I got to pick all the players as well as coach the team, which I don't necessarily blame him for saying that. But like, he's not going to get hired in 2024 when he says that. And once the commanders hire a general manager first, they're going to hire a coach who's not picking the players. So it was going to be a Mike McDonald, a Ben Johnson, a Dan Quinn. And let's face it, one thing Dan Quinn brings the table, easy to get along with.

Like, it's just a very, very, very. high character, good soldier. Now, he's very dependent on the GM. When you're a general manager like Adam Peters, you're a much better GM when you have a good coach. Brett Veach, John Lynch, less need. We're not talking about Howie Roseman. Like, when they have good coaching staffs,

like, they look better at their job. I don't care how good the players you're getting people if your coaching staff doesn't know what they're doing. Like, part of the unraveling that happened in Atlanta is Matt Ryan started falling off a cliff, Obviously, the last coordinators, and they started missing on draft picks left and right. Like Thomas Demetroff didn't do a good job. The big elephant in the room with Dan Quinn,

because overall his body of work in Dallas' defensive coordinator has been pretty good. It's going to be offense and his offensive coordinator. And we've seen he's gotten offensive coordinators before. They leave. Right? They go to him and then they leave. So how, if you do have success, if you draft, let's just say Drake May or Jane Daniels, and all of a sudden in a year or two

that guy looks like C.J. Stroud, the offensive coordinator is going to get a head coaching job. If C.J. Stroud has another year like that, Bobby Sloak is a lock head coach. It's just the way it works. So that would be a concern for me, for sure, just looking at it whenever you hire a defensive coach. But one thing we've talked about this earlier in the week,

a lot of these interviews have come like, who's your contingent plan? Which I think is also stupid. If you hire John Middilcock to be your offensive coordinator right now, now, if he gets a job in two years, who are you going to hire? Obviously, things are so fluid in the NFL. You can't keep track of everything, right? People get jobs, people get fired, things don't go well.

But I understand it. I'm not going to say, like, I love it. But I also go, well, who are they really passing on? Like, who could they have had? If Mike Vrable is cool with just getting along with everyone and not picking the players, then I think that's a mistake. But I don't know if he's really cool with that. I don't know if that's really his deal right now.

Obviously, Belichick, not interested in that. I think it's pretty clear to say. But once Ben Johnson says, no, you're kind of upstream without a paddle. And this is probably the best option when you just look at a guy that can get you pointed in the right direction. Now, more than likely, my guess is in three or four years, if they're just a consistent, solid team, you're going, do they need the next upgrade? Do they need the better version of this? But that's a good problem to have.

If you go from Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr, that's first-class problems. That means you're in the playoffs. And let's face it, this Washington team has been a joke for 25 years. Since Dan Snyder bought the team, it's been really bad. And Josh Harris has proven now, once he kind of blew out Sam Hinky and everybody, and just got normal coaches from Brett Brown to, you know, who was a San Antonio guy, to Doc Rivers to now Nick Nurse. They like a guy, these last two hires, with experience.

And I do believe that matters. Like, if you're John Snyder, you've been a GM for 15 years. You believe you can really help the guy. If you're Adam Peters, you've been at a really high level as the number two. But it does help to be working with a guy who has experience. Because now your suggestions are no longer suggestions. They're your decisions. So being with the guy that goes, well, we did this with this.

We used to do this with Pete. One thing, look at Dan Quinn's resume. he went from being Pete Carroll's right-hand guy in their prime, right, the best teams, to Atlanta, where he had some success when he got Kyle Shanahan for sure. I mean, they had, you know, one of the best teams in the league. And then he's been one of the better defensive coordinators the last several years.

So his resume, if he was a 45-year-old, be a no-brainer. I think sometimes there's like this agis, and listen, I'm guilty of that. Like, I don't really want that guy. Besides Belichick, he's kind of an outlier. But there's a reason no one's talking to Spags. No one wants a 60-year-old who's kicking everyone's ass.

Right? I mean, even Mike Zimmer, who's like an old crumudgeon, look at his resume. He was pretty successful in Minnesota. He wasn't exactly the village idiot, but he's never going to be a head coach again. And it gets back to Dan Quinn's right kind of at that sweet spot, early mid-50s before he's never getting a job again.

So if you're him, he was 100% going to take whatever he had offered. But he'd been in the mix the last couple years in Seattle, two years ago in Denver. and now in Washington. So if I'm a Washington fan, I'm not throwing a party for this higher. But I'm also, this isn't some joke higher, right? It's going to come down to his offensive coordinator.

And the key with the success is 100% going to be, do they draft the right quarterback? I had a buddy tell me this a while ago when Joe Douglas had all those picks, and we'll get into them here in a second, that they had like over the course of three years, a bunch of high picks in the first and second round because of the Jamal Adams trade.

And let's just pick an even number. Let's pick eight. He said, if we hit on seven of the eight of the picks, and six of them are pro bowlers and all pros, but Zach Wilson's a bust, we're in major trouble. But if we miss on seven of the eight, they're all scrubs, none of them can play. But Zach Wilson is a top ten quarterback.

Everyone in that building is getting extensions. It's kind of playing out that way. They're holding on for dear life right now. They had a trade for a 39-year-old guy who tore's Achilles. He tore's Achilles with them, but you know what I mean. So the success of this franchise moving forward is very black and white. Like obviously culture matters and drafting good players matter. It's a team game.

But is this quarterback good? Because ultimately I think Damiko's a stud. And I think he would be good no matter where he coached. But to be really good, and even he said this over and over, we go with C.J. And if you get a star quarterback, or you just get, you don't even need, like, C.J. has a chance to be like a top five quarterback. If I just get a Dak Prescott, a Kirk Cousins level guy, you got a chance to win every single year. And that matters.

That's how you get extensions. And this franchise, this is not the Chiefs or the 49th. This team has not been winning. They've been a laughing stock. They've been really bad. And that owner's now gone. That stink is now gone. And it's on this franchise to get this quarterback right.

And they have a great opportunity. They get the pick of the litter after Caleb Williams. So we'll find out who they have, highest on the draft board, right? You'll know whoever they take at quarterback, you'll know is their number two quarterback. Potentially they're number one, because they're not even,

pointless to even look at Caleb the moment you know, you know, one Chicago, assuming they trade the pick, and who knows? Maybe they trade up with Chicago, right? I don't know. Maybe if you're Chicago, you're like, we just trade down one and get like their second round pick. I don't know.

We'll have to see. That's a lot has, we got time to let this all play out. But the success of Dan Quinn and Adam Peters, at least in the short term, is going to hinge on this young quarterback. And I'm fascinated to watch it play out. Now every coaching vacancy is full, and we still have a lot of movement with assistant coaching.

We don't have to speculate anymore. Because there was a lot of speculation. We didn't know who Washington was got. We didn't know who Seattle was going to hire. I would say the Carolina hire was a little, I don't want to say out of left field, because what Canales did with Baker Mayfield this year was really impressive. But longtime position coach,

who just won your coordinator, boom, head coach. Now, I understand why they hired. I probably didn't have many options. Like the Jim Harbaugh thing, no-brainer, right? Even the Adam Peters, or not the Adam Peters, but the Antonio Pierce. I thought the Raiders would be players for Jim Harbaugh. Maybe he wasn't that interesting because they didn't have a quarterback. But the moment he was out, like they weren't hiring all these other guys.

They were going to hire Antonio Pierce, and they did. So we can move on and start now we can start discussing how these teams are going to play. Once we know the coaching staffs, who the coordinators are, It's going to be very, very interesting moving forward. Jed York talked to the media today and gave a little press conference, I mean, kind of impromptu to all the local guys. I love when a coach or a GM just gives the local guys some love. And he told this story about 2022, right?

So this was the 23 season, so it was last year. Brock Purdy's rookie season. And he said that Kyle Shanahan grabbed him after a training camp practice or sometime early in training camp and said, I need to talk to you. And he said, listen, I think we might have the best quarterback on the roster and it's the seventh round pick.

We might have found something. You know, essentially what he said. I heard the way Jed told the story is not exactly how the story was told, but essentially like, we got something here. And I was thinking about, like, one thing that's never really served me wrong, and I would imagine many people can relate to this,

is when your gut tells you something, there are things in life, whether it's as a football coach, whether it's in any business that we do, whether it's in our relationships, that you kind of know early, you're like, God, she's special. We might need to make this a long-term thing.

I want this woman to be the mother of my children. Or like, God, this is, this company is something bad is on the horizon. I need to get the fuck out of here. I've had it happen to me twice When Chip Kelly was hired After Andy was fired I knew early on after a little

I don't want to say an argument But I You know there was a contentious conversation Of me giving my opinion In a draft meeting Chip kind of firing back And everyone after like in the hotel room All the scouts were saying

I was like I don't know if that went well I'm like yeah I don't think so either And then it was clear my gut told me This thing was ending And I had the same thing happened in radio And my gut told me Something's off here when I, a boss who had originally hired me,

it put me on a radio show, and we had had a lot of success together, left the company. And then we hired this new guy, and it was like, this is not going to work out. This is no chance. And you know it right away.

Now, it doesn't mean you make a decision right away, but I think usually when your gut tells you something, positively or negatively, you kind of know. And I've been to enough practices in my life to know if you're just, like the way I go to practices now, or at least I don't go to as many anymore,

but to a training camp practice, if I go to Raider practices or Niner practices, it's kind of hard to tell, right? If I'm just attending practice, like, ah, this guy's making some plays. But when you work for a team or when I would text people on those teams, I remember texting a guy

who worked for the Raiders when they drafted Khalil Mack. And he said after like the second OTA practice, it was so abundantly clear that Khalil Mack was the best player on their team, it wasn't even funny. And sometimes you just know right away. Now, it's harder with later round draft picks

because in football, you're not wearing pads at practice. But I knew early on when Kyle had to change his offense for Trey Lance and then to a running offense, kind of like what Lamar did as a young player or what he did with RG3, but Trey wasn't a very good runner.

I'm like, I don't think this is going to work. And my gut, I don't, it's not like Kyle text me I can't imagine Kyle likes doing this at all. And then when they got Brock Purdy, he can just run Kyle's offense. And he told Jed York, I think this guy's going to eventually be our starting quarterback.

And I think, now listen, did anyone have any clue that he could be a starting quarterback and throw 30 plus touchdowns and help them get to the Super Bowl? No chance. But I do think you can like someone. And I do think you can know, especially these coaches,

with a guy running their offense or their defense, like we got something here mentally on a different level. And that's an element that coaches don't talk about publicly a lot. The stuff that, you know, we see the plays. I remember Andy Reid told me this years ago. He's like, you know the thing about Tyree Kill that no one talks about because he's catching all these touchdowns and he runs by everyone? Is he's one of the smartest guys on the team.

He's like, I can tell him a play because they're constantly doing shit in practice, right, inventing plays. I can tell him one time exactly what to do, and he remembers forever. The football IQ in the heyday of Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelsey, and Tyree Kill was off the fucking charts. Now, Purdy doesn't have those guys' talent. He was a seventh rounder for a reason. A lot of his talent is the intangible stuff.

Picked up Kyle's offense like that. Understood the reads like that. Makes the correct decisions like that. Is accurate like that. So coaches, listen, sometimes, the pushback of people in the front office, the scouts, the GMs, is we like talent. We like physical attributes. Because over the course of time, if you coach that guy up, he can be a really good player.

And coaches like people, ideally you get Tyree Kill, who's an elite talent and smart, right, football-wise. So you can give them everything, right? That's what like Kobe, Michael Jordan, you know, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning. Like, you get the total package. Ray Lewis. Most guys are somewhere in the middle. Super talented.

have some deficiencies. Not as talented, make up for it with try hard and work ethic and smarts, right? When you get the guy that's Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, you become an unstoppable with Aaron Rogers, you start rattling off MVPs and dominating. Right? But Brock Purdy's a great example of someone

who was valued more with the coaches immediately than us on the outside. And I think looking back, when the Niners kept him on the roster, listen, it took a broken foot for her ankle from Trey Lance and a broken foot from Jimmy Garoppolo, but the coaches liked him and they liked him early. And anytime as a player, and I would recommend this to any guy,

the faster you can learn the playbook, you know, as a mid to later round guy, the faster you could make plays in training camp that impress the coaches. It's just, it's a tried and true formula. Obviously effort and being early and being a good guy, all that shit matters. But the easiest way to make a team is not just make plays,

it's to know what you're doing. Obviously, you have to have the talent, but if you get drafted, you have football talent. But you'd be shocked how many guys struggle to know what they're doing. Because it's complex. A lot of these guys come from offenses. What I hear? What was the stat?

They had someone, the amount of guys in this upcoming draft that were under center. There's like 47 snaps. I don't even want to screw it up. But I remember one time they asked a guy, they asked how many guys at a six, senior bowl, this was years ago, had never been under center in college, and like every quarterback raised their hand. So what you're doing in college while you're playing football at quarterback, it doesn't parallel what you're going to end up doing in the pros. It doesn't mean

you can't figure it out or learn it or transition, but it is difficult for a lot of guys. And I think Brock Purdy is a good example of one of his traits that when everyone's like, this guy's not good enough, you know, half the league struggles making the right decision? I think a lot of guys, like once you become a starting quarterback or in the league, have a pretty good idea. Like when you're in a meeting room, I can tell you what we're supposed to do against this coverage. When it's this play call, what to audible in, when they're giving you this look. A lot of guys can do that great on a whiteboard in the meeting room with the quarterback coach

and the offensive coordinator. It's like shit, this guy knows what he's talking about. Can talk football like they're Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Then there's a smaller percentage once you take him to the field in practice. that can do that. If you can do that, you're going to impress some people. And then there's the next level of like, how about the game? When you have no clue what, because that's why training camp in the preseason games

are so much different in the regular season. Because you're going up against the defense in a preseason game that is just running their stuff. That is, for the most part, running pretty bland looks. It's not a game plan look. Well, once week one hits, I'm playing whoever, Mike McDonald, Vic Fangio, you name it. who at Wink Martindale, Dan Quinn, who are giving me all these looks, Spagnola. They're like, God, I didn't see this on tape. I didn't know this was coming.

And can you still function when you don't know the answers to the test? Because that's football. You don't know the answers to the test when you go into a game. That's what makes Patrick Mahomes and Brady and all these guys that can sustain it forever at such a high level. It's like, you know, football genius. And that's one element of Purdy's game. Listen, he does not have the strongest arm.

and he's definitely not the tallest quarterback. So it's not easy for him to see and get some balls batted sometimes. But his knowledge of what to do in big spots, he's also a very instinctive player. And this goes back to the draft. When they drafted Trey Lance, I went to a lot of practices with Trey Lance,

and I watched all his snaps in the four games that he started. He's not a natural, it doesn't feel natural. Like he just, you watch him, if something felled off, he didn't play fast, right? And he was a, you know, kind of a hybrid. player. When you watch some of these young, Herbert right away, who's a hybrid, big athlete can move, the game came very natural to him. And I'm not saying he's a perfect player by any means.

It just flowed. He played fast. And that's one thing with Brock Purdy. Now, when he gets in trouble, when he feels a little overwhelmed, he definitely doesn't. But he is a guy that as the game goes, he's a very instinctive and natural player. And that's how he makes up for some of his physical limitations. Obviously benefits from a good coordinator and good talent around him. But, you know, I think that's a pretty telling quote that it's why I said this entire offseason, Trey Lance was done. He was never going to be the backup quarterback. They heard Sam Darnold to be the backup quarterback. And everyone and, you know, some of these gutter rats, as I call him on the internet, the big Niners fans that for some reason wanted

Trey Lance to be the starting quarterback. I'm like, guys, he's not, they signed Trey, they side Sam Donald. He's going to be the backup. Pertie's going to start if he's healthy and Sam Donald's going to be the backup. I didn't quite know they were. we're going to trade them before week one. But you know what Jed told you today? Kyle had kind of turned on trade two years ago that said this guy can't run my offense. And I'll say this. It was a monumental mistake.

It's why you don't make decisions out of desperation. Anything in life. If you're fighting with your wife, don't try to have a kid to save the marriage. Right. If you're going bankrupt, I wouldn't recommend going to Vegas and putting it all on black. Or put it all in one stock to hopefully double. right just sometimes when you are in a desperate situation you just got to take a deep breath but when you know you got to be able to pivot one of belichick's greatest strengths i always thought as a head coach

he missed a lot of picks right he'd get rid of him after like two or three years like god bill just drafted that guy in the second round like a year and a half ago he's already traded and he had the equity and the juice to do that most guys do not and they play it out forever the jets were done with zach Wilson two years ago. They were done with him. But it's like Aaron Rogers can save him, and they kept him. They should have got rid of him when they knew.

And he would have had some value. Maybe you'd get rid of him for like a third round pick or whatever. This is after a second year, even as ugly as it was, because someone would have still been desperate enough. And now they're in a position when no one's touching that guy. Probably have to cut him. So I just think that, listen, they made a mistake,

and they got lucky, you know, that the seventh rounder can really play. But once they knew, knew it, they pivoted and they pivoted fast. And that's a big reason why they're here right now. I don't even think they're a playoff team with Trey Lance and Jimmy Garoppel is terrible now. So sometimes the football gods, when you're aggressive, take care of you.

Last but not least, speaking about the Jets. The report that there was a long athletic article by Diana Rusini and some other guy, like an in-depth, just, I mean, pretty salacious stuff on the Jets. And the thing that stood out to me the most, was Robert Sala. Remember, there was a report late November, early December, after Zach Wilson, he'd got a concussion and been kind of benched, and they were going to go back to him.

And one of the reports was Zach Wilson didn't want to go back and, like, didn't want the job back. Like, I don't want to go back. And you guys kind of gave up on me. And then remember, Aaron Rogers went on McAfee and talked a bunch of shit, like who's leaking this stuff? And then Robert Sala called a staff meeting. and basically called every single coach out on a staff

saying if you come clean right now of a story that was true, I won't hold it against you. And I'm threatening to like check phones. And I think the reason you're in those positions is because of the situation they put themselves in with Aaron Rogers. If they had just played it out, and I don't blame them for trading for Aaron Rogers,

but the moment you did that, it threw the whole building off kilter because everything was dependent on him. And one line in that article is like, Aaron Rogers isn't the assistant GM, Joe Douglas is. Essentially Aaron Rogers is the boss. And I think that's pretty risky, Ben. And it clearly blew up. And Robert Salah is a high character, good guy, people really like him. But when you find yourself like in this situation where everyone feels like they're holding on for dear life,

And the moment Rogers gets injured, everyone kind of scrams like a cockroach. And when Robert Sala's calling out his coaching staff, Robert, it's not one guy, it's probably seven guys in there. Like, no one trusts the operation right now. And this gets back to when you can't have a long-term vision and the willingness to not get in these desperate situations. And one of the stories was that Robert Sala didn't want to draft Sack Wilson. he wanted to keep Sam Darnold and to trade the pick. So already all these stories, and they just relieved basically the number two in command,

Rex Hogan the other day, so I think put the piece of the puzzle together. He was probably a leaker. But when not everyone's on the same page and everyone starts backstabbing each other, because that happens all the time in the NFL, your organization is fucked. Like that group and cohort of people is done.

I picked the Jets to, I think win the division this year, but I definitely thought if Rogers played all 17 games, they would be a playoff game. I don't think that's necessarily a fact, looking back because their offensive line was so bad. Here's what I do know. No matter what happens this offseason, I'm betting against the Jets. Their coordinator feels well over his head. I don't think Nathaniel Hackett knows what he's doing. Robert Sala has clearly lost control of his operation because everyone, the reality, you know the shitty part about football? Is this like this ultimate team game, but when things start going poorly, like players are getting a lot of

money, so whatever, I can point the finger a little bit, but if I'm making $7 million, who cares, I'll keep playing hard. As a coach, you know, like, he'll easily point the finger at me. And if he gets fired, I'm going to get fired too. So everyone kind of starts fighting for themselves. Yet the entire message of the coaching staff is like, stay together, team, fight through adversity. Yet the moment there's adversity, all these guys making $500,000, $2 or $3 million, non-head coach and the head coach making 7, 8, 9 million, start just stabbing each other in the back. The funniest part about this article is the main salacious line of

Robert Sala getting all of his coaches in a room calling out who leaked the article. Was this article with the leak about that thing happening? So it's like, it's just non-stop leaks. The dam is broken. It's a fucking disaster. And there's no way to rein it in. and a huge part of this is winning really makes everybody happy.

It was well reported. I said this, but other people have said it still. Wink Martindale and Brian Dayball's relationship was the exact same. Two years ago, was the exact same. He couldn't stand him. But they made the playoffs.

They were the 60th. They were in the second round of the playoffs. So when you win, it's like, even when you don't like each other, hey, things are going well, we're all getting praise, you do it. The moment you start heading toward the top five in the draft, that's when the machetees come out.

I just watched the show on Netflix. Is it Grizzadela? You know, it's this famous drug lord who lived in Miami, who did a bunch of business with Pablo in the cocaine era in like the 80s. It's just, you know, they're just beheading people. It's just a war zone. It's like a more chaotic mafia. I mean, you'll just cut someone's head off,

leave them in the middle of the street. It's crazy. No one dies in the NFL, but it's the same mentality. You know, it's like, I'm a sucker for mob shows. You give me any mob show. Gody, any of the godfather, you name it. Real movies, shows, docu-series, narcos, Netflix, I'll watch it all. They all tend to like sign this code and be loyal to each other.

The moment shit falls off the rails, everyone always turns on each other. It's actually a great kind of example of human psychology. Because I truly believe when you're making money in the mob or in the cartel, and you're a higher-up guy, like you're hand-in-hand with everybody. But the moment your ass is on the firing line, like, hey, you're going to go to jail for 50 years? Hey, you're going to go to jail for that murder? Well, hey, I might have murdered one guy, but let me tell you about the boss who murdered 17. And they start singing like a canary.

Those old days of maybe the 40s and 50s where people stay quiet, That clearly ended toward the 80s and 90s. And right now, I wouldn't trust the soul if I was in criminal activity to keep their mouth shut when things went wrong. Same thing always happens in the NFL. The moment adversity is the wrong. The moment you start losing and the moment controversy surrounds your team in terms of players and players acquisition, no one ever wants to take blame. You see it with the Atlanta Falcons.

I understand Arthur Smith did not do a good job Listen his team was headed nowhere The quarterback situation But was he alone in all this What about the Terry Fontinot And Rich McKay? They're like, oh yeah, just this idiot Not my fault

Not my problem So the Jets man If they were a stock I would short them and I would short them hard And they're not even expensive stock right now Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became

bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of

biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your

podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because. of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack.

So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

Okay, let's dive in to the Middlecoff mailbag. Very easy to get involved. At John Middlecoff. At John Middlecoff is the Instagram. DM's wide open. Fire in. From Luis. I can't express how much I like your content.

I like this guy. Question. What do you think about the do GM hirings? Well, let's go around the league. Adam Peters, love it. My guy, bias. But he's a stud. I think that's a no-brainer.

Dan Morgan, I met him years ago when I was scouting. Obviously, I had followed his career as a player. I just think that's a very, very difficult job. It's just so hard. I mean, to work for Tapper, we'll see. I mean, I thought he was the number two guy forever, so maybe they have a pre-existing relationship.

Maybe he's less likely to kind of walk all over, you know, former linebacker than he would just some former scout, but that's not an easy gig. Who else? The Raiders, to Lesco, I think they definitely needed to hire a guy with experience, hiring a head coach who's, I mean, only been coaching four or five years. I mean, he's only been the NFL as a coach a couple years now. So I totally understand that.

I actually makes a lot of sense if you're going to hire, if you hire Antonio Pierce, you could not hire a first time GM. Destin to fail. So I like that hire. and the Patriots, I don't even know. I think I saw they're not even guaranteed to hire a GM. Not quite sure how that's going to work, but kind of a bizarre situation.

Decided to give your show a try and love it. I've got some nice people today. Anyways, I'm a Bears fan. I think it's a lock we take Caleb. But our second round pick in the first round, I could see us trading, our second pick in the first round. Do you think we get enough value for it to be worth it? I think it depends.

If you could move a couple spots back from like 9 to 14 and accumulate, I don't know, a couple seconds, then I think you would think about doing it. But if you could get Caleb and still get one of the best players in the draft, assuming three or four quarterbacks also go, because if three quarterbacks go, right, if Caleb goes and then May, Jaden Daniels, and one other guy, that would be four, that would mean one of your, I've been saying this, one of your top five players in the draft you're going to get. So I would be very, very into doing that.

Question for the bag. Lifelong Jets fan, which as you can imagine has been rough. I recently read the athletic article that I talked about it earlier on the podcast. While I've been prepared for the 24 seasons and not live up to expectations, even with Aaron Rogers, the article put the nail in the coffin and continues to expose the fundamental issues within the Jets organization. I'm of the belief that the... the issues stem from the top with Woody Johnson and the people he brings in to manage the operations. Are you of the same belief? What are some concrete ways to fix the organization?

I think as long as Rogers there and they're all in, this is kind of the situation. You just, you either get a fantastic season out of a 40-year-old that's coming off of torn Achilles and you make the playoffs and everyone kind of rejoices or you win seven, eight games and it's a disaster and Rogers just retires. That's kind of what I would bet on. The year of seven and ten, eight and nine team, it doesn't go well,

and you're not a playoff team. If I was a betting man, that's what I would bet. But after that, you don't fire owners. You're stuck with Woody Johnson. Like, nothing changes. So even if you fire Joe Douglas,

Robert Sala, Rogers retires after a down year, it's clearly he's not the same guy. You're just, you're doing it all over again. you're just going to hire the next Joe Douglas and Robert Sala, which is kind of proven now. It's very, very difficult for it to work there.

I've always wanted to coach since the second I realized I wasn't talent enough to get a scholarship. I got a degree in sports administration at Boise State, and I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for me on getting into the industry. Intern with the athletic and media relations, but that ended during COVID, and I feel like I've hit a dead end. I have the passion and knowledge for football, and I want to share. The one advice I always give to people is if you're still around the program, they just got a new coach, who I guess he was the interim coach and they hired him.

If you still live in that area, see if you can help out the program. Recruiting coordinator, just get your foot in the door. I was talking mentor would be strong, but I gave advice to this guy. And it did, you know, the COVID hit and it didn't really work out. And he called me back and he's like, I have an offer to go work. at like a financial institution. And I would imagine make six figures. And he's like, it's very difficult.

Like my sports career, working sports hasn't really taken off. And I said, listen, I don't have a, have no issue with anyone deciding to pivot a career. But just know this. Once you do that, you know, even at 24, 25 years old, and this guy had a degree from a Power 5 program, you're probably never coming back. We were talking, my girlfriend got like she's in real estate. and they sent her the thing for taxes, how much she made last year. And I was like, she's younger than me.

She just turned 31, 32, 31, 32. And I was like, I never made that much money up until I was like 35. I didn't, I haven't make that much money in sports doing this, working in the league, working in radio. I mean, good, really good money till probably four or five years ago. And if I ever would have been in a position that, 28 making a couple hundred grand like most of my friends were doing most people i went to college were doing i never would have pursued this but when you're used to not making any money you're just kind of in it and you just keep swinging the pick and listen there's no guarantee things are going to work out

it's part of life but once you i would do everything you can to get your foot in the door however you want if it's truly a passion because the moment you pivot and go get a job at bank of america or Wells Fargo or insurance company or sell medical devices, it's going to be impossible to pivot back because then maybe you meet a girl, you get married, you have a kid, it's very, very difficult. It's so much easier to do this shit when you're young.

It really is. If you're wired, like to me money, and even now that I make it, it doesn't do anything to me. Don't get me wrong, I like making it and I like investing it and I like doing all that stuff, but it gives me no feels inside.

Nothing. So it was easy for about from the moment I was graduated college up until I would say about 1920 to just, it didn't phase me as much. But it's not, that's not for everybody. But the moment you get out because no matter what you do,

you start low. Eric Spolster just got whatever, $150 million. The most famous picture of him is in the video department. Probably making 15 grand for the Miami Heat 20 years ago or 25 years ago. That's the most guys. You know, most guys start, I remember Deuce Staley, who's now probably made millions of dollars as a coach at this point. And he's the running back coach for the Browns.

When I first got hired with the Eagles, I used to pick up Deuce every single day at the Marriott and take him to work. He didn't have a car staying at the Marriott. I would imagine at the time he was making 30 grand or whatever. I mean, he didn't, he wasn't even a quality control coach. He was just like a coaching intern that Coach Reed just kept on because it was clear like Deuce was a stud. and our quality control coach at the time, which might have paid 60, 70 grand, maybe low, maybe high,

I don't know the exact amount, was Matt Nagy. Actually, it wasn't Matt Nagy. He was lower than that. It was Doug Peterson. So you just, and this is the NFL. Doug Peterson fucking Super Bowl champ now

and former NFL quarterback. Duce Daley was played in the league for almost 10 years. You've got to be willing to go through the dirt. And you just got to do whatever. I wasn't going to be denied. I was going to find a way in. And then once I was in,

I'm like, there's not much money here at the bottom. The only thing that kept me going is I was always around people that were making a lot of money. When you worked in college, Coach Hill was making a couple million dollars. Not that I was going to be a head coach in college,

but so you just knew that there was money in the business. And then when I got to the NFL, obviously the GM coach, everyone's making a lot of money beside me. And even in radio, like working around Greg Papa, who was making a ton. You could just see, like, there was money in it.

You just had to find your way to fucking climb up that ladder. If Brock wins a Super Bowl and Kirk Cousins becomes available, do you think Kyle would take him? And do you think Brock's future if he wins or loses? I don't think win or lose. Kirk Cousins is coming to the Niners. So I think Brock Purdy is going nowhere. I mean, he'd have to throw seven interceptions,

and even then I think he's in the starting quarterback next year. What are your thoughts on the whole Mahomes, Kelsey, and Tucker situation? Clearly the chiefs are trying to push a narrative that Tucker was in the wrong, but they are failing to talk about the fact that they were out warming up before the schedule team warmups. I've never been an NFL player, so I don't know the exact rules on the warmups, but before quote-unquote official warm-ups, I used to, I mean I've been to, I don't know, 50 NFL games. That might be high, but let's just 30 NFL games.

and I, whenever I, every game I've gone to, because the first game I ever went to was when I worked in the NFL. So basically from 2010 till a couple years ago, if I work in a media, I would go to the game really early, like hours before, like three hours before, and go on the field. It's a great time to kind of, you know, bullshit with the coaches, talk to people. Players are everywhere. There is no like segmented, you can stand here, you can't stand here. Listen, I, I'll be honest, I didn't spend that much time on that story. I don't really care. Part of it is like,

I don't know, he's a kicker. I know he's the greatest kicker I've ever seen, and you've ever seen. I just don't really care. I also think it's kind of a free-for-all. You're allowed to kind of warm up wherever you want. This is before you put on the pads. Three hours before the game, you go out to a game,

let's just pick two teams. Let's pick the Cowboys and the Eagles. If I just went out three hours before a game, Cowboys Eagles, you might find like Micah Parsons and Shoe, shorts and a t-shirt doing a stretch over there and you know uh t-pollard in one corner working out and a j brown and fletcher cox doing their like everyone's kind of everywhere everyone actually is kind of kind of talked to some guys you might see some former teammates lightly say what's up you definitely

see the coaches on different staffs kind of bullshit and it's kind of like uh it's almost like a driving range you just kind of can do whatever you want there's it's not like some strict rules read the article in the athletic. Any interest in talking about Zach Wilson's story being leaked where he said he didn't want to start? The article said at one point, Sala held a coach's meeting and demanded cell phones. Personally, if my boss

tried to demand to look through my phone, I'd tell them to kick rocks. But is that common thing to occur in the NFL? When I worked in the NFL, I didn't even know that many people in the media. I would have been terrified to give any inside information. But the longer you've

been in it, you kind of become numb to it. Like, here, I talked about it earlier on the podcast, but think about this. If I think there's a chance we're all getting fired and I don't really like the guys I work with, why do I care? The other thing is, you're less likely to leak. Like, let's face it, when the Wink Martindale story broke, I piggyback it off it. It broke with Jay Glazer. What do you think Jay Glazer got that story? Where do you think you got it?

I don't want a source guess here, but you got it from Wink Martindale. When you're rich and you're older, you don't give a shit. Here's the other thing. When you don't respect who you're working for, you really don't care. Do you notice not that many stories come out

about Andy Reid or Bill Belichick this way? I mean, obviously, Belichick, some stories come, but they're all coming from the owner. Even Pete Carroll. Like, the last year's not perfect. there weren't that many crazy leaks. Why? Because you know you're working for a Hall of Famer. You know this guy is going to be the greatest recommendation you're ever going to get.

Even if you disagree with stuff, you kind of keep your mouth shut. Look at Kyle and McVeigh. It happens to bad organizations and coaches who other coaches don't think are good. Because you would never, if you're working for Nick Saban and something happened, leak to someone about Nick Saban. One, I don't think they'd write it. Like Deanna Rossini would not write something right now like this, even if something similar happened about Andy Reid,

Kowshanna, or Sean McVeigh. Those guys have too much power. You know when the media really attacks when they see the house on fire? You wouldn't write this because you're like, the chiefs will never let me around. The 49ers will cut me off. Do you know what these reporters are looking at with the jets? That building is on fire and that thing is going to burn to the ground next year.

So what am I doing? Why do I care? Because you are like, this doesn't make Robert Sala look good. So the moment you write that, you're kind of shorting Robert Sala. Now, once upon a time, Tom Jackson on NFL countdown or whatever, when the Patriots, the year they started O&2, said that everyone hated Bill Belichick and the Bill Belichick's career was headed toward the toilet. And that was 2001.

And then obviously things changed. He won the Super Bowl and won several cents. I think he cut, he hated Tom Jackson. So you got to be careful about when you unload the clip. But if you have information and you do it, you're kind of betting on this is not going to go well. Been watching for a while, big fan from Santa Cruz, California. Love Santa Cruz.

Anyway, my question is, should the Niners turn their attention to drafting a top-end offensive lineman, specifically guards? I say this because I remember watching Drew Breeze play. I always thought he had big, I always remember he had big guards to protect him and hold the ball. They were always good in the interior, center in the two guards. Jabari Evans was a stud.

Remember, they franchised him one year. Yeah, you could argue that the interior offensive line is a big emphasis. They drafted Aaron Banks in the second round. Aaron Banks was like pick. I forget the exact number, but he was a pretty high second round pick. Now, their right guard is an issue, and their center is kind of a guy. and their right tackle is not that great. And their left tackle is an all-time great,

but he's 35 years old. So big picture of the 49ers, I'd argue defensive and offensive line issues. Like, I would draft all linemen. I mean, Greenlaw, Warner, going nowhere, all their DBs under contract, all the wide receivers good, and running backs,

and the quarterback. Like, to me, linemen, offensive defense. Eric Armstead's old, and he makes a ton of money. He's going to have to have to, to restructure if he wants to come back. Hargrave is on his third contract,

so he's probably got one or two more years. They do not have any other defensive ends besides Bosa who are any good. And beside Trent Williams, if you replaced all their offensive linemen, you could upgrade if you've got a better player. Like, it's impossible to upgrade Trent Williams. Like, you're not upgrading Debo or Iuke.

Like, you can upgrade all. Aaron Banks, you know, when healthy, is solid. But the center, right guard, right tackle is definitely here's the problem they draft at the end of every round and they're not going to have that much money because they're going to buy iuk

not buy iuk he's already on the team but pay i yuk and they're paying a lot of guys you know kiddle makes some coin even juice for a fullback makes coin Debo makes money Fred makes money Bosa makes a shit tone of money Charverius makes a lot of money

but he's their best corner this is where they really benefit from having Brock Purdy's contract. What are your thoughts of the new Packers, D.C.? I liked they hired a new guy and not some retread.

I really hope he can bring some toughness to our defense. We've been lacking that since Dom Kaper's years. Looking forward to getting ready for next season. I talked about this a little yesterday on the podcast,

but when I used to go to 49er in practice he was an assistant coach. I remember seeing him the first time with Chip Kelly. I'm like, who's this guy? He's kind of a scrawny. He doesn't really look like an NFL coach.

But then when Chip got fired, and Kyle kept him on, and then people really around the building liked him. I was like, ah, this guy, pretty impressive guy. So I've kind of loosely followed his career. One story that was out there the last 24 hours on Jeff Halfley, so it's like, I don't know, I mean, he coached one year at Ohio State as the co-defensive coordinator. He knows defensive backplay.

He knows coverages. So that's, you know, if they do a good enough job with the lines, he'll be able to dial up coverage. He knows how to coach DBs, which is, To me, coaching db is a lot like coaching quarterbacks. There is a small, small group of people that can do it. And if you have that trait,

you are a valuable asset. So I like the hire too. But one thing I found funny was like, this shows us college football is broken. He left being a head coach at Boston College for the Packers defensive coordinator job. The Packers defensive coordinator job

is a better job than the Boston College head coach. With NIH, and the transfer portal, Boston College, I'd argue, is a bottom 10 college job. You have no fucking chance to win. Zero. Not possible. You are going to get mollywapped as this goes.

So he left, not because it's just not a good job. I'd argue pre-NI, it's just not a good job in general. So he's much closer to being a head coach in the NFL. Hell, Ohio State, if he takes the job. defensive coordinator job. He can never win more than seven games there. It's only going to get worse. So I don't even think it's that crazy like, yeah, most guys probably leave. The other thing, it's not like, you know, he was making $4 million there. The Packers are paying him $500 grand. He's probably making $3.5 million. He had leverage. Like, he was a head coach.

He was a head coach. I don't have to leave. You understand these coordinators in the NFL. Vick, Wink Martindale gave back $3.3 million. That's how much. money he was making. Vic Fangio and the Eagles, I bet they're paying them four or five million dollars. What do you think Boston College is paying their head coach? Is he in Ohio State or Alabama? So yeah, I like it. I've always just following his career loosely. I think he's just an impressive smart guy who can coach corners and safeties. And if you can coach the secondary, that means you can call defenses because a lot of calling defenses is the coverages, especially in a passing league. Lifelong Broncos fan here, who also always respected Brady.

from start to finish, but I believe these Brady versus Mahomes' first six years comparisons aren't taking in the full context. Though Brady's first six years, he had three Super Bowls, but only three Pro Bowls, and the Pat's defense was considered the driving force. And Manning was considered the best quarterback in the league. The debate early always was, see, this guy's my age, he remembers, Manning's accolades were Brady's winning. Whereas the moment Mahom stepped on the field, he was considered the best of one of the top

quarterbacks in the league and the driving force for the chiefs. He's the best of both worlds. Shouldn't this be considered? Yeah, I mean, as time passes, people forget. Right? And that's why as you age, listen, it's 2024. By 20 years ago, Brady already had multiple Super Bowls, 20 years ago. So as time goes on, you forget about the context.

When you hear people talk about Michael Jordan and the Bulls, the casual fan talks about 96 to 98 as their best teams. YouTube, Michael Jordan, and Scotty Pippen in 91, 92, 93. They were like fucking aliens. And I'm Michael Jordan is easily my favorite athlete ever. And it was, listen, in the late 90s he was unstoppable. But he wasn't near the athlete he was in the early 90s with Pippen. those two guys were the best athletes on the planet.

They played the hardest, and Michael was easily the best player in the league by a country mile. They were unstoppable. Because athletically, they were in a whole different universe than everyone else. Remember the famous story in the 92 Dream Team was like Tony Kooch was eventually going to come over, and they both wanted to guard him, and they embarrassed them. They ruined them. those two guys, the team's 91, those guys were better than,

now maybe Michael was smarter and understood basketball better in 97, but he wasn't near the dominant player that he was in like 92. It's like LeBron. And like he's been really good. You can tell he's, he's old now. I mean, he's still really good, but he's, I watched him the other night, it gets worse. He's clearly dramatically older.

He's not as explosive. It's honestly remarkable what he's doing, but like the end of Cleveland, LeBron, and even like the first year of the Lakers, was still really good. But the best version of LeBron, the most unstoppable version of LeBron, was the heat.

Because he was a total package. Like, this athlete, what are you supposed to do with this? That was Michael in the early 90s. Just like the best version of Brady was like 08 to 15. I mean, just an unstoppable machine. dominant.

Early on, that first Super Bowl, I mean, for sure. Manning was the better player, but... So back to the Mahomes thing, Mahomes was immediately better than Brady at the same age. Not even close. Now, can Mahomes maintain this for like 10 years? Because Brady had the best of both worlds. He got to win, he got to be good,

and then he became unstoppable. To me, Brady became Manning around 0708. but the first six years of Brady's career he was like a high-end like Kirk Cousins that sounds fucking crazy I know I don't that sounds worse than it's supposed I don't even mean it like that he was he was like the ultimate game manager

who was really because that's how the team play and then once they started leaning on him they got him better weapons he flipped the switch and then he became Manning and then there were basically two mannings but Brady was better in the playoffs when he became Manning you know what I mean

Sounds crazy that I just compared Brady to Kirk Cousins. But I don't totally want to take it back. Mailback question here. I'm a big Kelsey fan. But still think Gronk was the best blocking tight end, also being the best tied end in the league when he played injury, certainly cut Gronk's career short. He's the same age as Kelsey, but how they were used has a lot to do with it. For most of Gronk's career, due to the lack of deep threats outside, the seamrock was the only explosive play the Patriot's hat, which led to a lot of head-on collisions,

with the flying safety on the other hand. KC has been mostly a past first offense, so Travis has not asked to block as much. He also had most of his career a deep threat with Hill, helping to clear the middle of the field, atop of having a great Andy Reid designing the plays for him. He even said before that Andy's play design is why he's often wide open.

We'd love to hear your thoughts. Totally. I mean, I don't think that's debatable. Kelsey can't block like Robin Kerkowski. Kelsey can't block like Kittle earlier in his career. Or even, I mean, Kittal's still a really good blocker. He was a dominant blocker young. Kelsey is the greatest past catching tight end of all time. Forever, it was Tony Gonzalez and before that it was Sharm.

Gronk is much more in the camp of, like there are two separate tight ends. Guys that you could just run the ball all day behind. That's Rob Grunkowski, George Kittle, Mark Bavaro, way back in the day. and then there are the guys that are like an unstoppable pass threat. Most of my life it was Tony Gonzalez. Then, you know, before you, Shannon Sharp in the 90s. And now it's Travis Kelsey. Now, they all play the same position,

but they truly are asked to do. Like, those guys are closer to being like the best slot receivers of all time. And that sounds like a slight, but you know what I mean. Where Gronk and even Kittle to a less of extent are like pseudo-offensive linemen half the time. Kelsey's just not. So it's hard to really compare those two. And listen, we're in the business because of sports, comparing who's better in this guy? I think we can just say they're both first ballot hall of famers.

They're both championship level players. And every guy worth their salt would take them. I also think they both belonged with the coach they got. Belichick, little old school, more inclined to run the ball. Andy, much more of a past guy. And they went to the perfect coach. Belichick, a tough guy. Andy, a light up a scoreboard guy.

Both, I mean, the two best coaches of their generation. And both turned into Hall of Famers. And two of the bigger personalities in the league. Rob Grunkowski and now Kelsey with Swift is taking him to another level. Just two of the most famous non-quarterbacks of the internet era. I mean, they really are. When you just say Gronk, and now you say Travis has gone

his fame dramatically the last couple months, obviously. But he was, you know, in football world, he was really famous. Now he's probably surpassed Gronk. I mean, he definitely has worldwide, but, you know, Gronk was really, really famous. But that was a lot of tailgating, you know, Brady's fame

and being a part of it. This sounds like, I'm not trying to take shots into this. Like, I love Grunkowski, I love Kelsey. And I just think they're not they're not apples to apples, right? They're just, they're two different type players. Hall of Famers and either guy I'd want on my team. Depending on what kind of offense I'd ran,

depended the guy that I'd want, right? If I ran like Kyle Shanahan, if you could pick a 22-year-old gronk or a 22-year-old Kelsey, he'd probably go gronk because he likes running the ball. If you went, you know, the Andy Reid's, I'm trying to think of the, you know, just look around the league, the teams that pass more,

they would lean Kelsey. They'd like spread offenses. Cliff Kingsbury just got higher with the Raiders. He'd fucking love Kelsey. Four or five wide, put him out there. Not that Gronk can't do that, but if you have a run heavy offense. And even I heard Gronk,

maybe he told Rasillo this earlier this year is that like as he got older, he started not blocking as hard because his body couldn't take it. And he learned like, I got to be more of a positional blocker. You know, early on in his career, he took pride in being like,

being like Trent Williams of tight end. But it's hard to maintain that as you get into the 30s and you get beat up. The volume. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy,

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Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

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