The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 3 and Out - Former #7 Overall Pick Darrius Heyward-Bey on Crushing the Combine, Al Davis Draft Shocker, Misconceptions

Episode Date: April 23, 2021

In this episode, John sits down with 2009 #7 overall pick Darius Heyward-Bey looks back at his college recruitment, why he chose Maryland, deciding to turn pro, inside the agent selection process, his life-changing NFL combine performance, why he thinks he could have run faster than his 4.30 40, the draft day surprise of getting picked #7 by the Raiders, meeting Al Davis, the chaos at the time in Oakland, why it was important for him to become a key role player with the Steelers.Follow John on Twitter and SUBSCRIBE now to get all the latest content!! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year,

unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1-800flowers.com.

From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more. Surprise your Valentine with 1-800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stem in june. Chanted Rose Medley for $3999 or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more. Go to 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. What is going on, everybody? Three and out podcast.

Appreciate everyone coming and listening. I'm recording this Thursday afternoon. Officially, it's actually 420 as I'm talking into the mic, a little less than seven official days till the start of the draft next week. Can't wait. Have a big show. Darius Hayward Bay,

D.HB, the number seven overall pick back in 2009 to the Oakland Raiders, went on to have a decade-long career played for the Steelers and with Mike Tomlin and Rothesburg and AB for years, played with Andrew Luck and the Colts. Having D.HB on to talk about,

you know, he ran 4-3-0 at the combine, and there's a short list of guys that run that fast, how that changed his life, the draft process, just a unique interview, a guy that doesn't do much talking. I actually ran into him at the Combine a couple years ago, and we've stayed in touch a little bit, and I text him a couple weeks ago,

and I'm glad he was awesome. He agreed to do this. I need to get dinner with him once as Corona ends here where I live. But I'm excited, excited for this interview, and yeah, everyone that lists on Collins feed, if you could subscribe to the Three and Out podcast separately. Also, leave a review on the Three and Out. I greatly appreciate everyone that has.

And yeah, hopefully you guys have a good weekend and you enjoy the interview. Well, I'd like to welcome a special guest, a barian native. I call my neighbor. We ran into each other a couple years ago at the Combine. Obviously, a lot has happened since then. But Darius Hayward Bay, what's up, man? How you doing? Doing well.

Thanks for happening, man. big fan. I listen to your podcast all the time. I appreciate that. How's life been treating you during these corona times? You know, I think it's been a roller coaster for everybody, including my family, living on the West Coast, being away from family on the East Coast. It's definitely tough, but, you know, we've all managed to kind of gather things, get things right, and just move forward. So I can't complain. I'm blessed. Yeah, you were telling me you live right down the road and you bought your house a little after the housing crash in the Bay Area in the last, the last decade, I'd imagine it's been good to that property value.

It's been good. I mean, usually, you know, guys, when they move on to different teams, you know, they sell their house, they move on. But I met my wife out here, and it was just, you know, it was smart to keep the house. And over time, I've just won when it comes to real estate in that area. Yeah, I wanted to have you on because, obviously, you know, you've been through the draft process. you've been a high pick and you were a guy that really kind of moved the needle during the draft process. But even before the draft process started for you, just looking, when you were coming out of high school, you were a big recruit.

When was the first time you realized when you were playing football? Like, damn, I'm pretty good. Well, it took a while. I mean, a lot of people don't know. I didn't make varsity until I was a junior in high school. So my first two years playing football ever was in high school and I was on JAB two years in a row. my sophomore year I tried out and my head coach told me I was the worst football player he ever seen. But you know, when you're 15, 16 years old, you kind of take that to heart and

you know, I was already good at track and I was a solid basketball player. So, you know, just kind of playing those next two years on varsity and just really showing my talent and really my speed really took me to that level of being like, hey, I could go to college. But I didn't know about the NFL until after my rest of junior year. I mean, my red shirt freshman year, that's when I realized, like, hey, I'm good enough to really go to the league. So there was, obviously, before you get to even high school, you remember the first time when you realized I'm fast?

Yeah, man, it was eighth grade. It was eighth grade. And we had this regional, like, you know, sports day in middle school. And I had no spikes, no nothing. I just had sneakers. and they did a hundred yard, you know, meter dash. And when I ran it and I beat everybody by like 50 yards, the whole stadium was just like in shock.

It was kind of like an all. Like they never seen somebody run that fast. And I was, you know, 13 years old when I did that. So that was my first moment of knowing that I had elite speed or world-class speed. So then you start playing football, you start getting a little bit better junior year. When was the first time you had the recruit, you know, the offensive coordinator, head coach start running into you, start talking to your coach. What would you remember that?

Well, that kind of happened at the end of my junior year. I've already had scholarship offers for track, you know, LSU, Texas, Texas, Tex, those places like that. And then football, of course, when they hear a guy that's fast, I mean, they follow, you know, fast, you know, right behind that. So when I started getting those calls from Joe Pah, Penn State and those, Coach Friedian at Maryland where I end up going, that's when I was like, man, like, do I do track, do I do football, which way do I go and decide to lean on football? How'd you end up picking

Maryland? I picked Maryland. It's crazy. Everybody in my school loved Alabama, and this is before saving. This is Mike Scho. Because I saw, I was looking at your offers, and I was like going Maryland over Alabama, and then I remember, you know, this is a little before, right? Just when he's in late. Yeah, just before the, you know, what everybody knows Alabama now for. So for me, it was just staying home, being close to home family for high school. I went to boarding school. So to be a little closer to my mom and having, you know, those people still, that support system behind me was very important.

And it became really easy to choose Maryland. And then you get there, you start playing right away and producing. Well, I don't, I don't do that. I don't produce right away. And I don't play right away. I get redshirted. And I think that was a really turning point because when I got redshirted, I was thinking about leaving football.

I was going to run track. I was going to transfer to LSU and not play football. But Coach Rieson set me down and said, hey, Darius, who will make a whole lot more money playing football, they're running track. He's right. So that's kind of how bad. That turned around, and then that's when football at Maryland started going good for me.

Okay, let me rewind then. So were there promises or anything? Did you think you were going to play right away? No, no promises at all. I mean, I think being recruited by all these schools, basically all off of how high my ceiling can be. It was all potential. I was a guy in high school

that ran hitches, slants, and goes. Didn't know much about the game. I was just letting my athletic ability take over. So there's no promises at Maryland. But when I was there, you're frustrated because we came in with five receivers and three of them played as true freshmen. So when you're the two out, you're like,

do I stay here? Do I? Maybe track will be better. But after that talk with Coach Free, and he was being real honest with me. I took his words and I started putting in the work. Yeah, I guess I said that because in 06, your first year playing, your redshirt freshman, you have 45 catches. And that in 2020, that's not that crazy.

But 15 years ago, like 45 catches in college is a good year, you know, let alone for a freshman. Yeah, it's a solid year. Definitely, I put, you know, my name was out there. People knew who I was. And it was kind of cool because that redshirt freshman year, I had an opportunity to be around. Vernon Davis. He was a junior.

And just to be around him and seeing how his draft process was, I was like, okay, I really want to do this. Who wanted to race when you two went at it? Man, it's crazy. We've never raced. And no what? Nobody's asked me to race. They don't want to lose. Yeah. You get him. He was fast, though, for how big he was. He was fast. I mean, everybody's talking about Kyle Pitts, and they're like, they've never seen anything like this before.

and I'm like, you've seen Vernon Davis. He was a free show. Yeah, he went five back when that was unheard of. Unheard of me. I think Kellen Winslow, you know, maybe a few other people. Mercedes-Lu, so I think he went nine. You know, you don't have guys that go that high. So was that, I mean, that moment, once he gets drafted that high,

you just on his team, I mean, you start thinking right away, like, God, this is pretty real. Like, you ball here, you make plays here, you show out here. Like, you can go to the league. You can get drafted high at this program. Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. When I was getting recruited, I wasn't really thinking much about the league. I was thinking more just like, how can I get better?

How can I play here? You know, and after that red shirt, getting redshirted, you're really just focused. How do I get on the field here? And the guy in front of me who started, who was starting in front of me, broke his ankle first game. And, you know, I never left the field after that. And I think Maryland, you can see it with Stefan Diggs, DJ Moore. You know, it doesn't matter where school you go to. If you produce and you show your ability, I mean, the NFL will find you.

This could be wrong. I read this on Wikipedia, but, you know, I know, like, there's usually a junior day and maybe even sometimes underclassmen. You guys run 40s. And you had ran like a 4-2-3 when you were a sophomore. Yeah. So then Word, I would imagine, starts getting out fast. They got a dude at Maryland that's running a 4-2. Yeah.

Did you think everything kind of changed when that moment got at least publicized? Was that public back then or is that something that wasn't as big as we act like it is now? Yes, it wasn't as big. I think it was known locally. Is that true, 4, 2, 3? Is that the number? That's a real number. Of course, it was hand in time.

But that's a real number. And I think for me, the word around the country was more when they saw me play against Miami and Florida State, my freshman year. You know, when you look at Florida State, Miami, those are the fastest guys, you know, on the planet. in college. You know, all those guys were running four threes, fours. And for me to have, you know, over 150 yards receiving and run by

these guys, I think that really put my name on the map like, man, this guy can run. So by the time you're coming into your junior year, like at the start of that season, are you thinking pros? I was thinking pro at the end of my rest of your sophomore year. I put my papers in to get evaluated, you know, with the league.

And the NFLPA gives you back something, and third round. They give you a grade. Yeah. And when I got it's pretty conservative, right? It's really conservative. And me being a rest of sophomore, even though I thought I was the bottom of the first round,

second round talent, they told me third or fourth round. And, you know, talking to the right people, you realize like, okay, yeah, I can still go second round. Let's do one more year. And I had a conversation with my mom. I remember walking across campus and I'm like, mom would have stayed for my junior year, but this is it. So I went into my junior year knowing that,

that was it for me. Was she on the opposite side pushing school? No, she was definitely saying, let's go. Oh, she was ready to rock and roll. She was all about it. She understood, because I broke it down to her. I talked her about how the O line, I talked about everything.

She understood all that. I'm like, hey, the O line's not going to be the same. We won't have a quarterback. We won't have this and we won't have that. And she was like, okay, well, then this is it. I said, cool, let's do it. So then that year happens. And by the end of the season,

season are you, you know, is everyone coming at you trying to sign you, all the agent community? I mean, what's that at control? What's that process like? That process is a little crazy. You know, they have this thing. The agents have a runner, somebody who goes to these campuses and goes to the parties, talks to the people. They want to know who you are. And hopefully they can bump into you. Yeah. And start up those conversations. So I had a lot of that. You have a lot of people come out of woodwork. But like I stated before we even started this interview. you, man. I'm just, I'm my own person. I know exactly what I want. I know what type of the people I want around me. So, uh, the, even though the process was crazy, I knew where I wanted to be.

Who'd you, who'd you end up signing with? I end up signing with CIA with Tom Conger and those guys. I mean, um, I'm a guy who's into the film. I'm into film. So that made it easy because, you know, their agency, you know, also deals with actors and people who do filmmaking. So that made that easy. But also just the, the relationship, you know, You know, I build a good relationship with those guys, even though my mom liked Drew Rosenhouse. I had to go out and just fall in my heart. But it's crazy. My mom liked Drew Rosenhouse.

That was crazy. So tell me a little bit about meeting with Drew. I mean, he could sell ice to an Eskimo, huh? Yeah, he sold it. He sold it. I mean, he was actually the only agent who was like, hey, I'm going to be with you draft day. And I'm like, what makes you think that you should be with me for draft day? like usually you want to be guys who go top 10.

And I think he gave me that first like look like, you know, well, I think you can be that type of guy without saying it. So that kind of let me know right there. I'm like, okay, he might know something I don't know at this moment. So it was fair to say that obviously he's a hype guy? He's a, I mean, he's a lot of passion. Is Tom a little more black and white not selling you anything fake or anything? Or selling you anything that doesn't necessarily exist at the time?

For sure. I mean, I think age. And when you're going through this process, they like to sell, well, I got this guy, this contract. Or I signed this guy to this. But in reality, those players did that, you know, those players, what they did in college, what they do in the league to get that second contract is the player. It has nothing to do with the agent. I always tell young guys, use agents to your advantage.

If you have a marketing guy, use them to the fullest. You have an agent, use them to the fullest. If you need to get things done, if you want to meet the right people and be in those buildings and being. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so... Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes, I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years. from black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, lover, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a perimenopausal chin here you do. So let's talk about it.

Join me on my new podcast. How Hard Can It Be with Deanna Maria Riva, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that nest was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex?

Dating at 45. How can it be getting naked at 50 with the new guy? That one's kind of hard. Well, that's lighting. They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter, and dieting. into it unfiltered and unbothered and ask, how hard can it be?

I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud in public. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva as part of My Cultura podcast network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At those dinners, use your agent for that. But if you want your agent to sell you on, oh, I signed this guy, we got him 60 million.

Well, you know what? The next safety's going to get 62. So it doesn't matter who you. go. As long as you're comfortable, you feel like his family, and they're working for you. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox SportsRadio.com. And within the IHard Radio app, search FSR to listen live.

Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more. Surprise your Valentine's. with 1,800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stem enchanted rose medley for $39.99, or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more. Go to 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in.

Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. guide. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about and we're here to change that.

I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. So because you're an underclassman, you're not going to the Senior Bowl or anything. What is the process leading up to the Combine, which obviously changed your life? Right. The process from there was just finding a place to train, finding a place where I can hone in for those five to six weeks leading up to the combine.

And I chose to go out to Arizona and it was cool. I had an opportunity to work with Matt Stafford, you know, when we did one-on-ones, I had an opportunity to work out with Alvante Davis, Vern his little brother. You know, he was another first rounder. So just that training and that being in a competitive environment was perfect for me. leading up to the combine. Because once you get there, it's real, that's what,

it's a track meet. Everybody's sizing everybody up. You know, nerves is running. You got to perform right there on the spot. There's a lot of waiting. So just having that time to prepare and be ready for that was key. So the buildup to the combine is Tom and CAA.

I mean, are they hyping up to you how important this moment is? Do you just naturally know it? Like what, did you feel pressure going into the combine? No, I didn't feel pressure going into the combine. I think the only thing.

I think the only thing that I had to kind of prove to my peers and also to Tom and my agents at CAA is that, of course, Word was getting out, oh, he probably can't catch the ball that well. So I was just like when we was doing workouts in Arizona, I was just trying to hone in with Matt Stafford and just being like, hey, let's throw all the time. Let's go out there and run around. So I want to, I know what I can do, but I want to even prove it to the people that are working for me, people who are, you know, talking to these agents. scouts, you know, I want to show them that I can do that. But I knew what I was capable of doing. I wanted to showcase that at the combine. Because it's fair to say looking back, I mean, Crabtree was the consensus top wide receiver in the draft, right? 100%. Yeah. I think, I think, I think, and Jeremy, and Macklin. And Macklin and Kenny Brick,

I would say me and him were in the same spot. And then I put Percy Harvin in a, in a category of special. Just different. He's in a different category. I mean, coming in, you know, you watch TV. You watched the Mel Khypers, the Tom Chays, and they had me as the fourth, fifth receiver out of that class. And we knew it was going to be a heavy wide receiver class because the year before, no receivers went in the first round. That was the Sean Jackson. That was, um, Avery Brad.

So we knew there was going to be a heavy load on receivers. Now, where do they fall from there? So you go to the combine. And I've been my first year, I was like the intern guy when you guys check in. and then you go to those rooms. It's got to be kind of a crazy feeling, right? You're meeting all these guys that you know the names, you've read about them,

if you've watched them play, you've played against them, but now you're all in the same, you're all trying to do the same thing, like I'll get to the league. Some of them are going to be your teammates. You know, it's just,

and that first, you know, you do the interviews that next day, just talk to me about the day that you ran, you know, the 40 that changed your life. But you get up at like 4 a.m., right? To do that piss tests and medicals,

it's crazy. It's funny you say that. The first thing I'm thinking about, is the times that we had to get up, the lack of sleep that you get. My roommate at the combine was Mark Sanchez, a cool guy. I mean, I'm a kid from Maryland, you know, from the East Coast, and he's a Southern California kid, completely opposite. But we just had a cool, cool time those three days there.

But up early, going to sleep late. I mean, you're meeting with scouts in that little room in the basement until 1030 at night. So it's crazy. but talking about my 40 time and what I did because I believe I finished top five in every category. Shuttles. So I had a great combine. It wasn't just, you know, the 40 time. Even when we ran routes, didn't have a drop ball and really just really ran, did well at the combine.

But for the 40 time, I hope you don't mind me being honest. Yeah, you're right. You ran 38 and a half vert, broad jump 10, 6. Even your bench 16 reps. Yeah. No slouch for a guy, I mean, for a wide receiver. But I think that's what makes the whole story unique when it comes to my 40 time. You have, if you look at everybody who's ran 4-3 or under in the NFL history when it comes to the 40 time, those guys are all under six foot.

Yeah. Nobody 6-2. That is a good point. And I think when I ran my 40, which I'm going to throw it out there, I could have ran faster. I think I think I think a little bit of nerves and you know you've been in the combine they have the guy there to scout from the Steelers telling you hey get back and get back flinch so you know the guy two or three guys before me had a couple of flinching so I'm like well I don't want that to happen and when I ran my 40 time I ran a 430 and a 429 but they rounded it up for a 430 and everybody's in shock and everybody's like man you really ran that fast and I'm just thinking to myself I was so. slow. Yeah, because the start was funky. The start was funky. I kind of came out wide instead of kind of lifting and driving. He stops guys when they roll, right? They roll and I didn't want to roll. So I was just more thinking like, well, let me make some emphasis on these first three steps.

And usually when I come out of my 40, it's really a lift instead of find my balance type of thing. I know I'm talking track stuff, but that's how I talk about running. And I felt like I could have ran faster. So maybe I could have ran like a 425 or something. Well, I think someone like you who's just a legit speed guy, you're going to run fast no matter what. But I think a lot of it gets talked about like guys manipulate it, right? They train so much. Like you were running fast in eighth grade.

But some guys, can you manipulate the 40? Like, you believe that? Like the tricks they teach you? No, I mean, there's tricks and stuff. But if you're fast, you're faster, if you're slow, it was show. And I think it's funny when guys go from the combine to their pro day and they went faster. Oh, I worked on. No, somebody's just hand timing. Nothing changed. And I always tell people, and even when I was with the Steelers and I was talking to a lot of the scouts there, man, the film

doesn't lie. If a guy's fast on film, that's what he's going to be every day. So base it off the film. The 40 time doesn't really mean anything. Well, I think that's a big thing right now because the combine didn't exist this year. And like last year when when Ruggs ran a 428, like that's a legit at 4-28. Oh, I was there. He's all on ass. Oh, yeah. I mean, now you get Jamar Chase, who plays fast, but he doesn't play four, three, eight

fast. And so the hand times, it's fair to say they're all a little manipulated this year all over the country at the pro days. But I think that's something that the media gets hyped about. Yeah, teams don't. They don't care about the 40 time. I mean, if you're a guy who's fast, that just confirms it if you run a good 40 time. You got that slow or a guy like a Keenan Allen, a 4-5 guy, and you ran 4-5 guy, and you ran

4-4, you might be like, okay, but you're not changing him on your board based on the 40-time. That's not happening. Because Crabtree didn't even run that year, right? He never ran. I don't think he ran. I mean, I think he maybe had a few workouts for some teams. I think he was dealing with injury. Oh, yeah.

So he didn't run, but like I said, the tape doesn't lie. So always base information off that. So you have the combine. And like you said, you know, your 40 time is fantastic. everyone knew you were fast. Your explosive numbers, your short shuttle were all eye-opening. Did it change everything from then? Like, did you feel a change just the way the teams wanted to see you? You start traveling around the country. What happens after that, the combine? After that, really, you know, I'll go back to Maryland and have my pro day,

had to work out with them, I mean, in front of those teams. And then I had a good round of workouts, had to work out with Baltimore, had to work out with Philadelphia. So the workouts start moving, up, but things don't really get crazy until I had to work out with Baltimore. Joe Flacco came, me, Joe Flackle threw balls. So you had Hugh Jackson was the quarterback coach. John Harbaugh was there. And after the workout, Hugh Jackson said, man, it was good workout. But unfortunately, we probably won't see you.

And I'm like, what do you mean? He was like, yeah, we're picking at 20. We won't get to you. And I'm just thinking to myself, that's when it started clicking, like, wait a second the teams know I'm not going to be there at 20 I'm not going to be there at 15 so what does that mean and that's when I started thinking hey maybe might go a little higher than 20 25 because if I would have told you when your season ended and you sign with condon if you would have went 20 you would have felt pretty good about that I would have been fine with that so once you start getting that you're like okay

then when did it did Al Davis and the Raiders bring you out for a personal visit one of those top 30s? No, they didn't. They didn't. I never set foot in Oakland. I had a conversation with James Laughton, who was the wide receiver coach at the time. And actually he left after the draft. So he never coached me. But I had a conversation with him. He flew into Maryland. We had like a 30 minute conversation. And I was it. That was my interaction with Raiders, the whole drafting process. So they weren't really on my radar. I didn't think I was on their radar. at the radar at the time. So once Hugh tells you that and you guys realize that you're going to go a lot higher, where were you thinking? I was thinking 17 to the Jets. Henry L. Heller was the wide receiver coach and he came out to Maryland too. No workout.

Just talk. And he was telling me how much he loved this game. And I'm like, man, my mom is from Jersey. It would be kind of cool to stay on the East Coast. And I'm thinking, hey, 17 to the Jets will be awesome. And then just to give you a little bit more information the night before the draft, my agent calls me and throws out a couple teams. And he does mention Oakland.

But still, you're thinking seven, probably not. But on draft day, when the Jets made the trade up to five to take Mark Sanchez, my phone rang. And that's when I knew it was Oakland. It was Tom Cable gave me a call. Two picks before the seventh pick.

Are you at the draft? No, I'm not at the draft. I'm at home. I'm with family and friends, yeah. So you get the call. What's he say? Oh, he just, you know, let me know I'm going to be Oakland Raider

and if I'm ready to work. And of course, I mean, you say all the good things. You're, you're height, you're telling him, yeah, and then, you know, the family's celebrating. So the trade happens, you look down a 415 number or whatever. I'm literally the trade happens. I mean, just didn't even pick Mark Sanchez yet. The trade happens.

My phone ranks. It was like, same time, I'm like, what's going on? because I'm thinking it's the Jets. I'm like, they moved up. Like, they're going to take me at five. And then it was Tom Cable, and I'm looking at the TV, and they're taking Mark Sanchez, and he was like, hey, we're going to take it with the seventh pick. And I think the Bengals had the sixth pick, and they took a tackle.

And then I was the seventh pick. What's that feeling like when you see your name go seven? I mean, that's a pretty legendary pick. Yeah, definitely a legendary pick. It was cool. It's funny because I had the true emotions two picks before my actual pick. Usually guys don't know. They're sitting there.

They kind of getting the call while, you know, the commissioner saying their name. But I knew for good 20 minutes before my name was called. So we had our excitement already. So when we have our sit down and the TV, we have ESPN there and everything, my family's celebrating because, you know, for the cameras, but I'm kind of, I have an air butt in my ear listening. I can hear Chris Carter and all these people's talking so bad about me. So if you go back on YouTube and you watch me get drafted, you don't see me celebrating. You actually hearing me listen to the bad mouthing that I'm getting about me getting drafted. It's supposed to be

the happiest day of your life at that moment. What's that feeling like hearing people basically talk shit about you as you get picked number seven overall? It's a crazy feeling. When you're 21 years old, I guess I was 20. I just turned 22. When you're 22 years old, that's hard to handle. That's hard to hear that when you're supposed to be happy. I mean, did you ever talk to Chris about that later?

Do you ever run into him? No. I actually reached out to Chris Carter maybe three, four years into my league. Didn't want to because I think I had some type of feeling towards that situation, but I don't know the man. So I wanted to become a better receiver. So I reached out to him to try to get better, see if he can help me become a better receiver and never heard back from him.

So that's just how the cookie crumbles, man. So you get picked. So the first time you ever met Al Davis was when you actually flew out after you were picked. Man, it's crazy. It didn't even get flown out after I got picked. What happened? Looking at your face right now. Yeah, it's kind of surprising.

I was probably the only guy in the top 10 who didn't, get flown in the next day until a press conference or anything. My first press conference was it wasn't even rookie minicam. We had a mini camp because we had a brand new coach with Tom Cable so we had that extra mini camp. So maybe a month, maybe three,

four weeks after the draft, that's one of my first time I came to Oakland. Wow. Times have changed because now immediately the press conference. I wouldn't even say times would change. I would say that was a Raider thing. That was a Raider thing. So what was it like showing up? You get drafted by the Raiders, Al Davis, that practice field with the fence all blacked out.

You know, so no one could see because Al's freaked out. What's that? I mean, you're just going to a living legend at the time. I mean, I think that's what it is. You know you're going to an historic place. You know you're going to an owner that is revered in the league. I mean, you got Jerry Jones, you got Al Davis. That's who I look at the owners, you know.

I look at that. I mean, of course, Robert Kraft with. what he's done with winning. But you just look at these iconic figures. So, of course, there's this mystique about Al Davis and the Raiders when you pull up. And it's all there. Like you said, the black fence, you pull up. You see the three Super Bowl rings.

As soon as you walk into the building, they let you know, hey, we have these. And just meeting Al, just seeing how smart he is, even in the state that he was in in 2009. You know, he was just very smart. He was sharp. He knew his stuff. He knew football. Do you remember the first time you ever met him in the conversation you guys had? Yeah.

I was in his office and, you know, he's shown me all the pictures of the great players. And I asked them, I said, is it okay for me to wear the number 12? Because I knew that was Ken Stabler's number. And he said, hey, you're worthy of it. You can do what you want, you know, because I don't think, just like in Pittsburgh, I don't think any numbers are retired. Yeah, I don't think so. So things are open, but I wanted to show respect and ask them that.

question. But it was an awesome conversation. Well, I was lucky enough after you were gone, but be around that franchise and the old guys that come around. It has this kind of collegiate feel for an NFL franchise, right? Their old legends come around. It's a powerful place. It really is. That had to be pretty eye-opening for someone coming across the country, but then the Raider, who were big on the East Coast, too. I mean, they're just a national fan base. The fan base is unbelievable. I mean, my mom still talks to the fans from the Raiders. I mean, she still goes to the parties. So everything about Oakland, the fact that I still live here,

and I'm still amongst the fans who still love their Raiders, even though they're in Vegas. It's just kind of cool just being in this area, in the Bay Area. You know, you have a great perspective because you then went later in your career, played Pittsburgh for what, four years, five years? Five years, yes. I had to play longer there than I've been open. I mean, you were drafted the Raiders when Al's health was kind of declining.

He passed away when you were there. there, right? And it was just going through some pretty low moments in the franchise. You know, coming from Maryland, Ralph Frie, you guys had a pretty, you know, successful program. Did you know right away? This is kind of a crazy, because when I look at your stats, I mean, you were a productive player in the NFL for a team that had quarterback issues. It's not like you were having 10 catches a year. You know, I think that's kind of the perspective, I think that's perceived out there, but it wasn't necessarily the case. The Raiders were a disaster, right, 09, 10, 11.

Did you know, like, this is pretty nuts? You look back and you just think about what happened at your time at any team. But it was definitely crazy. I mean, it's not easy to come onto a team. And, you know, four years there, you have three head coaches, four OCs, eight starting quarterbacks. That's tough to handle for anybody. And for me, it was.

I tried to find the silver lining and everything. I enjoy my time in Oakland. But there was times where we were actually were good. We had two eight and eight seasons. And both times we were eight and a, both coaches got fired. And the teams that was on in Oakland where we went four, I think four and twelve, I knew those teams were bad. Yeah.

I knew in training camp we were bad. I called my girlfriend and be like, we suck. And she's like, what do you mean? You was eight and eight last year. We suck. And you just know, I mean, you've been to NFL training camps. You know the vibe. You know what players are playing to their level of their capable of love.

So in Oakland, it was tough. But for me, I think it just gave me a strength to kind of push on and further my career. And for me, I always looked at it like this. I've had a full career. I've been a starter. I've been a role player. I've been a guy firing for his life on special teams. And I think I've seen it all.

So I think it is a cool perspective to have. It's pretty great because when you got there, it was Jamarcus's the second year. He was a starting quarterback for third, yes. By the end of it, like Carson was traded. You saw it all. I see it all, man. I see it all. I mean, to go through Jamarcus being there, you know, Jason Campbell playing well, breaking the collarbone and then two weeks later trading for Carson and learning a whole new offense mid-season. It was a lot. But, you know, we were built for me, Lewis Murphy, Jacoby Ford, you know, our crew, we was built for. Al Davis Special, you had some speed right there.

We had speed, but I think he had guys who had character to handle the chaos that we was around. I mean, Al dies, you know, we have Hugh Jackson as a head coach and things completely changed. You know, he trades for Carson. So it was a lot, but I wouldn't change it for the world. I know it was just someone from the outside who knew of you mainly because you were drafted really high. And then once I got in the league, you spent the one year at Indy, but then your career you had in Pittsburgh, I mean, that was, I mean, at the time, your teams were dominant there.

Really, the only team you couldn't beat right were the Steelers. Or I mean, we're the Patriots. But like you guys had some fantastic teams. How did that happen? Did you know that were they interested the one year when you were a free agent when you went to Indy? Just talk a little bit about how you ended up signing there. Yeah.

So after Indy, I got a call for my agent and he said, hey, Pittsburgh wants to bring you in and I was just coming off with a hamstring injury with Indy. Was that Lux?

Was that Lux rookie year in 13? Second year. Second year. Yep, that's the second year. And that's the season where we beat Kansas City. We was down like 28 points, 24 points. And we come in that crazy shootout in the playoffs. Yeah, in the playoffs.

So that was my first taste in playoffs. So that was crazy. First playoff game, that happened. So that was cool. But got a call from my agent, and he was like, hey, Pittsburgh wants to bring you in. And I'm like, hey, but I can't work out. Like, the hamstring is not good. And he's like, no, they just want to bring you in.

They just want to get a feel for the person. So I went out there to Pittsburgh, met with Tomlin, Kevin Colbert, the GM, and had a good, you know, conversation. They just wanted to know where my mind was. And Coach Tomlin just laid it out. Hey, we want football players. Nothing's going to be promised to you. You've got to work. And I think that was an environment that I needed.

I needed an environment that wasn't just going to be like, hey, you're going to start. Hey, you know, we're going to bring you in. Here you go. So it was really at the bottom. I had to start. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

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I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

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as part of my Cultura Podcast Network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the bottom, I was making league members. minimum. I was, you know, the seven, you signed a one year deal. One year deal. I was a seventh receiver in the room. You had guys who was on practice squad who knew the offense. So I was really behind the eight ball. And for me, I just put my head down and I treated myself, like I always do, but I treated myself like I was a guy trying to make the team. All the being a top 10 draft pick, all that stuff was out the window.

I had to really prove myself and earned the respect not only the coaches, but my teammates. And I was able to do that. I'm not just saying this because you're on. I mean, to sign a veteran minimum with a powerhouse team in 14 and then to go on to play four more seasons after that with that same team with the same head coach and GM, especially a powerhouse. That's impressive. I mean, seriously, because like you said, you had been a high pick.

You had made a lot of coin. And now you're taking a role. And they value, like, there's probably not many teams in the league that scout better than them, right? Especially at the wide receiver position. Yeah, well, my receiver position, but for sure. And for me, of course, you go in thinking like, yeah, I want to play receiver. And then, you know, you get through training camp and you, I've never played special teams before.

I've never ran down on a gunner. I've never ran off on kickoff. In high school, college, you never would have. Never would have. No point to. But most, you know, people who are listening to your podcast don't realize, like, that's majority of the league. Majority of the league are guys running down on kickoff and doing something. special teams. They're the backup. And that was the first time I was drawn into that role.

And I had to learn how to play special teams. I had to learn how to tackle. And I took that all on and kind of became like the perfect guy that coach Tom and can lean on to be like, yo, this guy can do it. He has the money. He has the pedigree. But if he can go down there and run off on kickoff, all you other guys who aren't Antonio Brown should be doing the exact same thing. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1-800flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination. 1-800 Flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise.

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Obviously, receiver is too, but you can kind of like avoid collisions. There's no avoiding it on Gunner, like, or kickoff. Right. I wouldn't say, it's never, you can't be scared. The wrong word, but I mean, were scared in the NFL? Did you think like this is going to be a different, different beast here? Oh, yeah, this is definitely a different animal. I mean, your, your mentality playing Gunner is crazy.

I mean, I remember my rookie year. I'm watching the Gunner. and the guy got thrown into the Gatorade bottles. And I'm like, whoa, like, there's no rules out there. There's no passing affairs. There's no holding. It's a dog fight. And, but when you're trying to fight for your NFL career, that doesn't matter.

Yeah. Run through a brick wall. What do I got to do? It makes it easier. It makes it easier when you know, like, hey, especially when you're fighting for something, for me, I was fighting for something that I felt like was never done before. you've heard of guys be top 10 draft picks and they play three, four years, and then they're out the league.

Yeah. I knew I had an- You had played with one in Oakland and Jamarcus. Right, right, right. I played with one. And then, you know, I also played with Darren McFadden, who decided to stay in Oakland to prove that he was still like, not a great player, but prove that, yo, he's not a selfish guy.

He's a running back that's here for the team. And I looked at my time in Pittsburgh. this is my opportunity to not only show the world, but show that other a John Ross, a treadwell, hey, your career doesn't have to end after four years on that team. You could go on and make it telling just like I did. Yeah, you're going to have to sacrifice. Yeah, you might not get 30 catches in the season.

You might not. But hey, trust me, the fact that I was on a team that every year, other than my last year there, we went higher, wild car, next round, you know, went to the AFC championship, I was a part of great teams and I was a great part of seeing great players play at high level just because I made the sacrifice to to play in the lead longer. When did you realize you were pretty good at special teams? Probably my second year in Pittsburgh.

That first year was still learning. Like learning just the lingo, just how to talk. I've never been in a special teams meeting. Yeah. So that second year, that's when I really like, hey, I can be. become good at this. And as I was getting good at that, I was actually becoming the best receiver I ever became too. And I get that credit to the coach man, our wide receiver coach. And also just being around, in my opinion, the fourth best receiver to ever play the game in Antonio Brown.

I think people are so fascinating, especially around the draft time, like, oh, the Steelers know what they're doing. Why are they so good with wide receivers? I think they try to find guys who are football players first. What I mean by saying that is, is that they're not divas when it comes to like, oh, I don't want to get hit. Oh, I don't want to block. Oh, I don't want to go across the middle. No, these are guys who are football players first.

Like, they're hungry to just play football. That's A.B. That's juju. That's Claypool. You know, those are those guys. Like, you can put them in any environment. They're there to play football. And then I think number two, they find.

guys who have a little bit of chip on their shoulder. Of course, none of the guys they draft go first round. No. So they all have this chip on their shoulder, AB 6 round, Juju second round, Claypool, second round. James Washington, who won the Belignacom. It's the second round draft pick. There's a chip on your shoulder.

So they come in with that mentality. When you got there was that, was 14 AB's kind of breakout year to start them? Or was that the year before? He was. So the year before was his breakout breakout year. But I had a pleasure for five years seeing a five-year stretch that has only seen maybe once or twice before. And it was amazing to see every day in practice and then see it on Sundays. Why was he so good?

Oh, man, of course, you tell people, oh, he can run great routes. He can do two things. The confidence he has in himself is unmatched. I mean, you ask A.B. how tall you are, how tall you are, he would say he's six five. You ask him like, A, B, you run a four, four, he'd be like, no, no, I run a four, four one. Like, that's his mentality. That's in his head.

He believes that about himself. And then the next part is, is that his conditioning is on a whole other level. So in the first quarter, everybody's fresh. Everybody's running a thousand miles per hour. But in the fourth quarter, an hour playing football, you know, you don't have the same juice. That safety, that safety doesn't have the same juice. A, B, still running on a thousand. So his mentality when it came to working out and practice was go a thousand miles per hour, and I seen that. I was like, wow, that's how you become great. You were there when the,

some of those weird ass games, not weird, but violent, crazy games with Cincinnati, right? Yeah, yeah. That Monday night game where A.B and just, was that as hate, the hate there is as real as it felt with us watching it? Yeah, for sure. When you're playing that division, we call it the Black and Blue Division. It's the AFC North. It's, I mean,

and the Bengals were good then, too. Bengals were good. I mean, the honest with you, like, if we weren't as good as we were, they were a good team. I mean, Baltimore was struggling in that five-year stretch. You know, they went to the Super Bowl, and they struggled.

But I'll tell you how real it was. It was hatred. It was real hate. I mean, the way they went about their business, we just didn't like. We looked at them as pretenders. We looked at us in Baltimore as equals. And we looked at, of course, the Browns are at the bottom. But we look at dangles and, you know, their front runners.

They're trying to be, they're trying to look the part, but they really can't, they can't be. So to have those tough games, to have a situation with having the Ryan Shays here against Cincinnati is just all like, when I look back, I'm just like, man, like, that's football for you, you know, motions, everything gets crazy. I thought that year when Shazir got hurt, you guys were the best team in the league. I mean, your offense was unstoppable and your defense was fantastic. And he really made you go. And then when he left, it just, it didn't quite feel the same. But that team, was that your best team there before he got hurt?

That was our best. That was our best team. Tell me if I'm wrong, that's not the year. We didn't even go to the HACC championship. No, I think it was a different year. when you upset the Chiefs right in Kansas City and ABA had that game winning catch on like third and long or whatever.

Right. That was that. But that year that you're talking about, Ryan got hurt. We all lost to Denver in the playoffs. And that's the year that Peyton Manning beat Brady. Yeah. And that was our opportunity to beat

the Patriots. If you go back and watch that. Because Peyton was shot. The Patriots weren't as good. It wasn't as good. Because we played the Patriots week one. and they beat us. And we left that stadium saying they do not want to play us again. Trust me. Because we didn't have Martadius and we didn't have El Bell.

Now, we didn't have El Bell later on in the season. He isn't injured in his knee. But still, we had DeAngelo Williams. We had Tucson. We had a good group of guys that can go out there and tote the ball from the backfield. So, yeah, it was very disappointing losing that season because we were really, really that good. Were you sitting on the plane when their car got pulled over for getting high on the way to the plane? And one of them got a DUI and didn't get taken to the plane.

Do you remember that? I remember that. I remember when we had the team meeting, well, office meeting. I'm like, yo, where's L. Bell and Blunt? Like, where are they at? And they told me what happened. I just started laughing because I knew not only did you get in trouble with that, then you had to buy your own flight to the game.

That sucks. Is there any better coach than deal with? that stuff and Mike Tomlin? Mike Thomas is the best. I mean, he keeps it real. I mean, he's the best coach I ever had because he's a leader of men. He knows how to motivate everyone. I think that's a special talent to have to be able to connect and motivate everybody because you got guys from all different walks of life. And then just how he handles discipline, you need to know who you are. If you're not A, B, Ben, if you're not a vet, there's certain things you can't do.

And he will let you know just like that. Hey, you're not AB. Were you there on the team when he went live on Facebook? Remember that? Yeah, yeah, I was there. That's happened to be Kansas City. Yeah. That's what it was the playoff game. Yeah, it was the playoff game.

That was the playoff game. That's when AB was really kind of coming into his own. But I actually don't even think that was that crazy. No, it really wasn't. I mean, I think it happens probably more than people even realize on Instagram or whatever. It happens more often than anything. I just think it's... Wasn't he talking shit in the background, Mike Tomlin or something?

That's why... Coast Tomlin was basically saying, like, what the deal was. Like, yo, we need to beat the Patriots. Yeah. They got a day ahead of us, but, I mean, just keeping it real. But, hey, that's how things go. And, you know, A, B, got crucified for that, and then you saw what happened after.

Yeah. Yeah, it just, that was a crazy little run of Pittsburgh teams that were fantastic and they just never got over the hump. But you guys were a powerhouse. I mean, let me ask you this. Do you think he'll be? be an interesting story to talk about like the killer bees like a team that just couldn't couldn't win. I think it happens a lot in like basketball. You get teams with group of star

players that can't get over the hump. It's rare in football. But I do think kind of in this era, I mean, Tom, they were winning every Super Bowl, right? I mean, it's just you just ran into an all-time dynasty. What are you going to do? You ran into Jordan. You ran into the Bulls. And the game when you lost right in the AFC championship, didn't Levion tweak his leg like in the first series? That was when we was being Kansas City, Elbel, Miami. He won those two first playoff games for us. We go into New England, five plays in, going, game over. Yeah. You felt the air just out of our sideline. It was over as soon as he got hurt. You still stay pretty locked into all the wide receivers that come out every year? Yes, I do, man. I'm big on it.

Who we like in this year? I mean, of course, you got your, you got Chase. You got, I'm a big fan of him. I think he reminds me of a stronger, Keenan Allen, a stronger, you know, he can run the ball. I mean, run after catch, I think it's going to be big for him. You know, if he can run a 12-yard in and take it, you know, an extra 15 carrying a safety on his bag, I think he can do that. I love Devante Smith.

I think people need to push aside the 166 his weight. I mean, the routes, the combative catch, I think that's high level. And in the NFL, you have to make combatic catches. You've got to make those contested catches. And he showed that he can do that in his sleep. But you know 166, I mean, I get the league is a lot different. But like Mike Mitchell, you play with them twice, huh?

In Oakland and then those guys don't necessarily exist anymore. But they would, 166. I mean, how much you weigh, you 205 pounds, 210 pounds? I came in at 210. I end up playing getting up to 220 at one point. I know, and you got knocked out in a game. Like, 166 is, he'd be the smallest player on the field every time. Like, to me, I'm not saying that's going to determine his success or failure.

That is really small, though. That is really small, but I think it's very, I think you got to, he has to go to the right team and you have to use him correctly. Like, what happened to me getting hit perfectly on the chin and being knocked out? That won't happen to him. What I worry about is AC joints. I worry about collar bones. I'm worried about, you know, in the league, these detackles, they're chasing you from behind. They're like you.

They run like me. They're full speed, you know? So, yeah, you worry about it, but I always just look at like T.Y. Hilton. T.Y. Hilton is small. T. Y. Hilton's 5-9, 175 maybe. But isn't T.Y. like a 438 guy? Yeah, but it's all about how you use a player. Because for example, for Devante, for example, like, I think.

I think he's like high four-fours. You know, he's not like Deshawn or Ruggs or you. No, no, he's not. But the speed part doesn't matter on that part. I think is how you use him. I would use him in the slot and we're using a lot of outroutes. He's going to be always breaking, stay away from the traffic inside. No screens.

I will barely run him on a slant. Yeah. I will use his ability that when he knows it's just him and the ball in a small DB. Outbreaking routes. Outbreaking routes. I'm going to make those plays every time. That's how I use Devante Smith. How about his teammate Waddle?

I like that. That guy's pretty sweet. Well, why, let me ask you this. Why do you like a guy like Waddle over those two? Well, he's more, I like Chase the most. To me, Waddle, I just lean, and I'm a sucker for explosion. I got a little Al Davis in me. Right.

And to me, the thing with Devante is like, you know, if he's a 4-48 guy or 4-5, he's a great receiver. And the defense of him is he's played at this weight his whole life. He goes against, to me, Waddle, though, his speed, like, eventually you just get matched up on a corner who also can run, right? And it becomes like, I just got to beat you one-on-one with my speed. And I know that he can, like, he is just an unreal, just explosive player with the ball on his hands or even getting open. I don't have to scheme it as much. I can just let my athlete make plays.

For sure. Kind of like the Purdue kid, I think the something more who's really explosive player too. Right. This is my take on explosive players like that. I think you have two sides to it. You can be Tyree Khill or you will be Tapeon Austin. So there's a balance. There's a balance to that.

And for me, if I'm a team picking in the top 10, top 15, I want the chase. I want the Smith. I want the kid from Minnesota. You know, I want those guys. Now, if I can get a waddle late in the first, early second round, that's great. Because like you said, you plug them in, screens, go balls.

but is he going to become Tyreek Hill? I mean, there's only one Tyreek Hill. Yeah, he's not that big too. That's what I'm saying. He's not big, but I'm saying like that speed and a guy who's short could waddle, how tall is wildo? Five-nine. Yeah, he's not tall.

He's not tall. So I'm just saying like, do you want Tyreek Hill? Yeah, you could get that. But you also might get Tavon Austin, which is not bad, but that's not a top 10 pick. I think A.B, how much AB weigh when you play with him, When I played with him, yeah, he was bigger, but when he came in, he was small. Yeah, and he really made, he was such an elite wide receiver, right? His hands, his route running, his just, his endurance.

If you're going to love Devante Smith, you're going to go, he's going to be such a great wide receiver. His weight won't mean shit, right? Now, the knock I've heard from scouts is like, if you do put them outside, not just in the slot, you kind of use them everywhere, which is how good players get used. There aren't that many Richard Sherman's in the league that are going to destroy him at the line of scrimmage anymore, right? Like when you got in the league, there was a lot of press corners, and it was more than Vogue.

I mean, I played with one with NAMD. I mean, he was the king of it. I mean, his arms. He'd be a problem on, on Devante. He'd be a problem. But also, what you got to remember, just how the game has changed on offense, the game has changed on defense. Like, Devante Smith has gone against these corners.

It's the same corners from college. They played the exact same way. He's not playing against Richard Sherman. Like, the rich and Sherman's are gone. The guys who are from my era, they're no more. The DBs and receivers, they're the exact same way. The DBs, to me, don't know how to get hands on receivers. They don't know how to track the ball.

I think Justin Jefferson is a great example. You can transition from college to the NFL easier now because the rules, but also just the fact the DBs aren't as good. I think it speaks to the quarterback play, too. When you came in the league playing quarterback, I mean, it's still hard. it was really hard. I mean, I saw a highlight today earlier day of like Steve Young in the 90s, like your windows were tiny.

It's just, it's so much more spread out now. So when you look at these quarterbacks playing with Ben, playing that year with luck, is it fair to say, obviously once you have the physical attributes, all these guys have special, you know, the Ben's, the Lux, Jamarcus, whoever. But what determines success or failure at quarterback is Monday through Saturday, stuff that, you know, you get to see.

But I saw for a couple years when I worked in the league, most people never see, the work ethic, all that type stuff. How important is that stuff for those guys? I mean, super important. I mean, if the quarterback is not working and it's not on top of details and at least given the parents that he's doing that, you won't have the rest of the guys follow you. And that's part of leadership. And like you said, I've played with a lot of different quarterbacks. I've played with a lot of talented ones. And I tell people, probably the most talented quarterback I've ever been around, it's probably Jamarcus. Yeah, just slinging it. Slinging it. I'm talking about throw a hold through your chest.

Yeah. But, you know, the other side of that is, you know, the preparation that Carson Palmer brought in attention to detail every day. I mean, literally, we would on every Wednesday and every Friday, after practice, 6 o'clock in the afternoon, will be in the quarterback meeting room watching third down cutups. This is what we're going to do on third down. I never did that with you, Marcus. And he showed up in the middle of the season, right?

Right. This is Carson's showing of the middle of the season. Like, hey, we've got to do it this way. And I imagine when Tom Brady got to the Patriot, I mean, got to Tampa, it was the same thing. Same coach, same player, but one player came in and changed the mindset, that changed everybody's thought process when they come into the workplace.

So being around Angela Carson and even Ben, I give, you know, I think Ben gets a bad rap when it comes to how prepared he is. He just does it in a different way. And you know on Sunday he's going to bring it. He's going to be one of the best players on the field. When you were around luck that second year, did you realize like this guy's pretty special, pretty fast? I knew he was special because he was a 12.

23-year-old acting like he was 34. Yeah. Just his mentality towards the game. I mean, I remember I came, first time I came to the team. It was an off-season workouts, first time meeting him. After the whole workout, me and him ran routes, just me and him for a half an hour. And he filmed it. And then we watched it. This is a second-year player had did that with me. Had nothing to do with the team. And had nothing to do with the coaches. He wanted to make sure me and him were on the same page. Hey, you're going to be my, you're going to be, it's going to be Reggie, you and TY. I've already got a relationship with Reggie. I got a relationship with TY. I need a relationship with you. So he went that far. On the first day I met him, this is what we're going to do. And then you talk about Ben, I think, you know, on the outside, he gets the rap.

Like, he's not grinding like. What was that like? Just Ben in the facility with you guys. He was pretty established by then, right? Obviously, he's a couple of Super Bowls and Pro Bowls. He was an elite player. I mean, he was one of the best players in the league when you showed up. I always say people got to understand this.

When you're an older player in the league, it's tough to relate to the young guys. I mean, I know for me, I was 31 years old with guys that were 12 years old when I got drafted. So that's how much the age got. So when it comes to Ben, if you're older guys, easy to have a conversation with Ben and, hey, Ben, what do you think about this if I did this on this route, you know? But if you're a young guy, that relationship, needs to be built over time, you know, over making plays and practice in, you know, in games. And Ben opens up, he will open up more and have more conversation with you

once you prove that, you know, you're reliable on the field. I mean, because that's what we're here to do. We're not here to just be friends. We're here to win football games. And I think that's best approach to the game. You'd have a unique perspective on this because you've probably been around so many offensive coordinators. We talk so much about the head coach, but the coordinator,

a little more under the radar, yet they're really famous, and we all think we can do their job. What makes a great coordinator? I think what makes a great coordinator is a guy, it's a coach that has a system, but is willing to bend. And what I mean by that, willing to bend is, some coaches have an ego that their offense is going to win the game. But the best office of coordinators or coordinators in the job,

general, the ones is like, what do you do best? If you're a speed guy, if you're a guy who's better on the left side of the formation, I see like, hey, I'm like, you could go that detail with it. I'm going to make sure me as an offense coordinator, I'm going to draw a place that going to put you in the best position to win, which is going to help us win. But when you have coaches that believe, hey, this is my offense, this is the way we're doing. They can't even take a suggestion from the quarterback or from a veteran receiver. I think disaster's way to happen. Who is the best coordinator you played with? That's a tough one. I've had a lot. That's a tough one. I'll probably say the best coordinator I had

is a toss-up. And I think you're going to laugh at who are the two people I say. The best two coordinators I ever had was Todd Haley and Hugh Jackson. Why, I was expecting Todd Haley because I know he gets a bad rap because he's crazy or whatever. But his offense, he was Kurt Warner's offensive coordinator in Larry Fitzgerald when they went to the Super Bowl and play the Steelers. And then for you guys putting up these crazy numbers year and year out, he's out. He's out. the league now. But I mean, shit, look at his resume. I mean, yeah, I mean, resume is good. And the reason why I go to those two guys, I think Hugh Jackson, of course,

is a better offense coordinator than head coach. Clearly, yeah. Clearly. And that's why he keeps getting these little small odd jobs from the NFLPA to work with quarterbacks and do it because he's very smart. He knows exactly what he's doing. But what made him good was he was always aggressive. Every game we came in with the mindset that we're going with throwing go ball. and we're going to score touchdowns. He did that with A.J. Green, when he was with the Bengals,

and he did that with us when we went 8 and 8. 8.8. We were scoring touchdowns. When it comes to Todd, I think Todd, throughout his time in Arizona and other stops, I think he got very, he was humbled. And when he got to Pittsburgh, he opened up his palette of, hey, I can take suggestions. And I think that's what made it work between him and Ben. He allowed Ben to have this input.

And then Ben opened up to be like, hey, you too. and that's why we were successful in Pittsburgh. Do you think coordinators, you know, because there's not necessarily a parallel, just because you're a great coordinator, going to be a great head coach. You had a front row seat for Tomlin for five years. Like, what's something that a coordinate,

it has zero translation to become a head coach. Like, clearly, because Tomlin was only a one-year defensive coordinator, right? And he just got a contract extension. He's going to be there for like 30 years. Right, right. I think when you hiring a head coach, it's all about a guy who's a leader who can lead men,

Offensive coordinators, yeah, you want a guy who can draw up the X's nose and break down and run scheme. But head coach, it's not made for everybody. Like you said, Coach Tomlin. I mean, look at Andy Reid. I think Andy Reid from afar, I don't know him. And you know Andy, right? Yeah. I think what Andy Reid's greatest strength is that he allows his coaches to coach.

Yeah. He allows them to have input. You know, he empowers them. He empowers the player. Coach Tomlin does that. He empowers us. He lets the locker room police themselves. Like, I don't need to be walking through the locker room.

This is your domain. Keep the bathrooms clean. Keep the locker room clean. Those are coaches. I don't need to have rules on the wall. If you have a coach that does that. So you guys don't have any of that stuff in Pittsburgh. None of the fluffy crap.

None of the fluffy stuff. Somebody taking a roll call. Who's here? No. We don't have none of that. No check in on the road about going to bed on time. None of that. Yeah, we have, you know, we have somebody checking the room check.

Yeah. Room check, but it's not strict because you know when these are wrong, Coach Tomlin will come in with his piece of paper. You have a list of names and he'll be like 1,500, 1,500, 1,500. And you know, oh, okay, that person did something bad and we'll move on. But we're not going to stop the train because somebody's foolishness. Does he get pissed off a lot? I know he does with the media, but like behind is he pretty even keel?

I think he's very, I don't think he really gets mad to, too, too mad at the media. I think he's just really directing on his mission when he's talking to the media. But now he doesn't get mad often, no. Like he ain't going to light up a guy in front of the whole team or that's not something like his. No, no, there's no reason to light up the whole team in front of the player in front of the whole team because you just probably won't start the next week.

Yeah. I mean, because Tom is really cutthroat when it comes to, or I'm really transparent when it comes to just letting guys know where they are. will put a picture of two guys up and be like, hey, one guy's going to be playing. One guy's going to be inactive. You have all week to figure out who's going to be. And you let the whole team know, like, hey, this is the competition. So you, I mean, clearly you liked it in Pittsburgh. Like you thrive there as a role player. Oh, yeah. I loved all my spots. But of course, Pittsburgh was definitely an experience that I wouldn't trade for anything. Yeah. Well, you,

what do you up to lately? Anything fun? Anything cool? Hey man, I'm just working on just being creative and just telling stories, man. I'm into film and stuff. So that's kind of where I'm at right now. Yeah, nothing like retiring in your early 30. You still got the rest of your life. You've already got some money. I actually took some advice from you. When we met at the compound last year, I told you, hey, I'm here networking, trying to get into scouting and all this stuff. And you told me why. Yeah. And I actually went home and thought about that.

and I had a whole pandemic to think about that. And I just want to say thank you because I don't think that's something that was made for me. Even though I love football, love talking about it, love watching guys to this day, that little piece of advice from you was kind of like, okay, let me do something not really passionate about. And I also think you can always play a role getting involved through your agent with guys, young guys, mentoring guys. You can do the best of both worlds. Yeah, I can do that.

But, man, that scouting and coaching, that's a grind. Big time grind. Unless Tomlin calls you and wants you to go on a staff, I recommend. I do that. Right, right. But, you know, for me, no, just living life, staying blessed, man, and family. That's all I've been focusing on. That's awesome, man.

Thanks, bro. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this. I know you're not out there much, so I'm lucky to get an interview with DHB. I appreciate it, man. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Hope you guys enjoyed the interview. I thought that was pretty cool, unique,

perspective of a guy, top pick, to a role player, to winning, he's seen losing. I mean, he's seen it all. I mean, if you've played on the Al Davis Raiders and then on the Antonio Brown, Levion Bell Steelers, you got some stories. And we actually talked for a little while after the pod. He gave me some good story, so we'll have to do it again in person or something. But hopefully you enjoyed it. For the Middilcoff mailbag, I think it's going to be YouTube only. I'm going to. I'm going to to load it on my YouTube page. John Middlecoff, you can go check it out there. So it'll be on the YouTube page. And yeah, I'll talk to you guys. See you guys next Tuesday. Draft Week, baby. Let's lock in. Let's stay focused. It's here. Thank you, Lord, because I can't do much more draft talk

anymore. Like, I'm ready for the draft. I used to be this way in the league. I know a lot of GMs and coaches and my friends, my scout friends. It's like after a while, it's like, okay, let's just have the draft. And we're here. I mean, basically. basically, a week away. But if you're listening to this on Friday or Saturday, we're even closer. So have a great weekend. Godspeed. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts,

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

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On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

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