The Herd with Colin Cowherd - **3 and Out Weekend Draft Special** -- Middlekauff's Value Philosophy by Position, Player, Round

Episode Date: April 4, 2021

In this episode, John is coming in hot on a Saturday talking NFL Draft. He explains his scouting philosophy when it comes to defining value, the positions where he sees the most first round value, the positions where it pays to wait, why the 2nd and 3rd rounds are where to find max value, and why future picks aren't equal to current ones. Follow John on Twitter and SUBSCRIBE now to get all the latest content!! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1-800flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination.

1-800 flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise. Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1800flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values. To order today, visit 1800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. Well, I did an emergency podcast last weekend after the trade. And I thought to myself, why don't we just keep doing some draft weekend podcasts leading up to, I don't know, the NFL draft? Everyone has opinions.

Everyone's fired up about this thing. We've already had a ton of trades. We already got a ton of unknown. And as someone who worked in scouting, the reason he got into scouting and really even college football was because at my core, as much as I love the sport, I love the draft. I would say I'm a draft addict.

And I would say I'm not even close to as big of an addict as some of the people, my best friends, when I worked in the NFL with the Eagles who are now kind of all over the league. Those guys, I mean, literally, couldn't be any more addicted to the draft. They do it for a living. They talk about it 365.

They watch these guys 365. It's literally their life's work as an executive in the NFL. And I'm not even just talking about the Howie Rosemins, the Brett Veaches. I'm talking about the assistants, the college directors, the college scouts. It's just, it's a passionate time of year for those guys, for as much as we love it on the outside,

they dedicate their life and their time to just evaluating these guys and stacking the board. And to me, the most fascinating thing about the draft, and it's something that I've really developed over the last decade. And if you've listened to my show, you know, I love the stock market. I love business. I love money. And I think the key as you grow older and you start making much bigger purchases in life and you try to be more and more successful

and you try to associate with smarter people, the one thing you learn is how key value is. And I've said this on the podcast, and I'll say it till the day I died because it's one of the greatest quotes I've ever seen. You know, the profit is not made when you sell something. The profit is made in the purchase price. And I think that can be related to the draft.

The number one thing when I look at going into the draft is not how great of a player can I get. Now, obviously that's important, and that is the ultimate, I guess, point of the event, right, is to pick players. But to me, the number one key is to pick the players at the right price. Because ideally, if you want to buy a home, if a home is $500,000 and it's worth $500,000, well, can you get the home for $400,000? And then three years, sell that home for $800,000, right? Because ideally, you don't want to have to spend $750,000 on a $1,000.

a $500,000 home. It's no different with the draft, right? And I think that's the number one key. And I had a good friend who's worked in the NFL sent me this project that he did on the draft years ago about value and about where you can get certain players. Because a huge part of draft meetings when you're talking about the players in your area,

and I think you see this on social media as talking about player comps. Because if I go, I really love devise, Monti Smith, well, you have to be able to tell your general manager or your head coach, well, who can you comp this player too? Because if you think he's worthy of a top 10 pick, well, you better, like Mel Kiper told me on my other podcast, he compared him to Marvin Harrison. If you think he's Marvin Harrison, then he's probably worth the top 10 pick.

But if you think he's just going to be a solid starter, then he's not worth taking in that range. And to me, when you talk about first round picks, especially the top half of the first round, I think there are three positions I'm isolating and I'm selecting. Obviously, quarterback. And I know a lot of stories are coming out now because it looks like there are going to be four quarterbacks go in the first four picks. And I don't think that's ever happened in the league history.

I think the last time that three quarterbacks have gone one, two, three, was in like that Donovan McNabb draft, which I think was 1999 when it was Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb, Achilles Smith, if memory serves me correct. And I think history would show us, even the last. last decade that most high first-round picks do not hit. And my pushback would be, I think the league has dramatically changed in the last five years. And when you look at recent examples of Mahomes, of Deshawn Watson, of Josh Allen, even of Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson, like, I think it's pretty clear that it's never

been easier to play quarterback, right? You can't really get hit. Your wide receivers are not in the threat of getting hit. No one can take them out over the middle or on the sideline. Not many teams are running like the Seattle, they run the Seattle defense, but the Richard Sherman's aren't walking through the door and they're bumping you at the line of scrimmage. Those days are kind of over too.

So it's never been easier to play quarterback. It's why I'm all for taking a quarterback really high. Even though history would show us some of the best players in the league, Aaron Rogers, right, went pick 24. Russell, third round pick. Tom Brady, an all-time outlier, went six overall. I'd say, though, most of the top quarterbacks, You know, Peyton Manning was the number one overall pick.

Andrew Luck was the number one overall pick. Ruffisberger went high. Philip Rivers went high. Eli won multiple Super Bowls. He went high. Flacco won a Super Bowl. He went high. Carson Wentz was competing to win an MVP

and win a Super Bowl a couple years ago. He went really high. Jared Goff got to the Super Bowl. He went really high. I am a big believer in taking quarterbacks high. They're the most important position in sports. You get the most bang for your buck. If you get a guy on a rookie quarterback,

even if he's on a top 10, you know, contract. Obviously, you would love a DAC. You would love a Russell Wilson in the later round. but I'm all for it. The other two positions historically that show you you get really, really good value and just the best players go there would be offensive tackle.

And it's why I'm a big believer of taking in this draft, you see a lot of people talking about the wide receivers, you see a lot of people talking about Kyle Pitts the Tide End, who I think is going to be a star, but we're talking value. And if I could get 90% of a wide receiver in the second round as I could as the 10th pick,

I would rather take the offensive tackle. Because history would show us you're not going to get great offensive tackles in the second or third round. But history would show us that you can get star wide receivers in the second and third round. And I believe that wide receivers have kind of become the new running back. Now, their careers, once they're in the league, last a lot longer, right? Like a running back shelf life is relatively small. It's why looking back when Dave Gettleman took Saquan Barclay number two overall.

Not anyone in the league would argue that Saquan Barclay coming out of college was not an elite player. He had elite attributes, he had elite film, he was an elite prospect. But taking a running back at number two overall is malpractice. Because when you look in the NFL right now, look at some of the best running backs in the league. Dalvin Cook, second rounder, Alvin Kamara, third rounder. Derek Henry's second rounder. These guys are clearly the best players in the league at their position, and none of them went in the first round. And those guys actually got contract extensions.

So if I'm going high, I'm going offensive tackle, because I do think one of the last places in the NFL where you are still allowed to be physical, because like I said, wide receivers, you can't hit them. Corners, you're not, and D.Bs, you're not allowed to hit. But Khalil Mack, Aaron Donald, Trent Williams, Tyrone Smith, whoever, you're off, Quentin Nelson, it can get down, dirty, and physical. Anything goes in the trenches.

And they are still able to play like they were able to play 20 and 30 years ago. So I would always lean offensive tackle. Now, if you have two offensive tackles, obviously you've got to go somewhere else. History would show us that if you're going to take a defensive lineman, you'd be better off if both guys are equal, taking the defensive tackle in the top 15 over the defensive end. Because there have been several examples over the last decade

of really good defensive ends and pass rushers going either later in the first round or in the second and third round. Guys like Dinell Hunter, Yonik and Dockway, Olivier Vernon, years ago, Jared Allen. You can get productive pass rushers a little bit later in the draft. But it's rare to find Trent Williams, Lane Johnson, those type players at tackle. Look at last year, Tristan Worst, Mackay Beckton. You got to get elite tackles high.

But what about defensive tackles? Because you can get a Chase Younger and Nick Bosa, and that is important if you can get those guys. But both those guys went number two overall. And Nick Bosa won the rookie of the year. obviously he got hurt last year. Chase Young, I think he was defensive player of the year. A rookie of the year, he should have been. But that's what those guys have to be when you take him number two overall.

Because when you take a Solomon Thomas, a Cleland Farrell, it's a devastating blow. But if you want a defensive tackle to get an elite guy, now there are outliers like a Gino Atkins, but for the most part, Fletcher Cox, DeForest Buckner, Aaron Donald, those guys are going really high. So if all things being equal, if you get the top elite defensive tackle or the elite defensive end, I would probably lean defensive tackle because there's typically value on defensive ends in the second and third round. Now, sometimes they have flaws. Clearly they do. That's why they last to the second or third round.

But I can find productive pass rushers. It's rare than I'm finding Aaron Donald in the third round. Now, like I said, Gino Ackins, you can find an outlier for every position. But this is back to the wide receiver thing. Last year, all these wide receivers went. John Gruden, for example, took the first wide receiver off the board, Henry Ruggs. He was the least productive of his group. Henry Ruggs, Jerry Judy, C.D. Lamb, Jalen Rager, all went before the most productive guy of the group, Justin Jefferson.

History would show us, and this is where I'll use an example with the Miami Dolphins. Right now, the overwhelming kind of thought process is the dolphins should take Kyle Pitts, Jamar Chase, Jerry Judy, whoever they think is the best skill guy at number six overall, I would say no. What I would do is I would take an offensive lineman, an offensive tackle. Last year you took Austin Jackson from USC. This year you take Penae Sewell, you take Slater from Northwestern. Boom, you got your two tackles.

And then at the end, I guess, of the teens, I think they drafted. 18, it might be 19. I think it's 18. Take a wide receiver. Hell, even trade back and get into the 20s and take a wide receiver. Because history would show us that you can get really good. wide receivers in the 20s. Hell, you can get really good wide receivers in the second round.

A.J. Brown, D.K. Metcalf, Debo Samuel. These guys did not go in the first round. They are luxury items that you can get pro-bow level players without using a top 10 pick. Now, that doesn't mean that Kyle Pitts is not going to be a star in the league. But if I can get A.J. Brown a little bit later and still get my offensive tackle, which I will not be able to get later, that's the part of the value.

The key in the draft is understanding the value, where I can get a player and what I have to pay to get the guy. Because it's my pushback on all the Mac Jones 49ers hype. If you're the 49ers, one, I don't believe that they're going to take Mac Jones. And I do believe that they want it out there. They're going to take Mac Jones. So when they do take their guy, they don't get jumped if the Jets are open to trading that pick, which as of right now, you'd have to say they might be

because they haven't traded Sam Donald. But if you took Mac Jones at 3, I'll never believe that you couldn't have got Mac Jones at 6. And we already know what it cost to get to 6 because the Dolphins went from 12 to 6, and they went from 12, which was the 9er spot. And it cost them one first round pick. Well, the 9ers gave multiple first round picks

to go from 12 to 3. Well, I think you'd get Mac Jones at 6 with only giving one first round pick, so it would be terrible value. It would be an overpay. Now, ultimately, I think my scouting buddies would say, who cares if you overpaid if you got the quarterback? I would tend to agree if the guy becomes a great player,

but part of this whole exercise come April 29th and even the 30th and 31st when the entire draft going on is maximizing value. That's what the best teams do. They pick the best players while maximizing value. And the key is to understand the marketplace. That's why there's always pushback in grading systems with teams. should you grade by round or should you grade like the New England Patriots style,

which is high-end starter, solid starter, you know, fringe starter, backup, out of the league, right? They just grade guys based on their team. When I worked for the Eagles, we put round grades on them. And I think it's mixed throughout the NFL. I personally like putting a round grade on it, what he's worth. Because I'm telling you what he's worth relative to the rest of the draft, also where I think his value is where I would pick him. So if I think a guy's a third round pick,

and he's still on the board in the fifth round, that's an incredible value. That's what I personally like to do. And this is not easy. You know, they often say that it's clearly not an exact science. Because you're dealing with human beings. These aren't widgets. This is not an Excel spreadsheet,

despite them putting these athletic testing numbers, right, that help us stack guys, right? How fast you are, how quick your three cone is, how much you weigh, your production, right? your catches, your drops, your sacks, whatever position you play, your tackles. I think linebacker is another position. I believe that historically, middle linebacker,

maybe historically would be strong, but the last 20 years has been devalued a little bit. I actually think having a great middle linebacker has exponential value for great teams and great defenses. Because in 2021, most teams have productive tight ends, have offenses that want to throw to the tight ends, and have productive running backs who can catch the ball. So when I got to the league in 2010,

a big line for running backs was either like, you're a Belkow running back, or you're a third down guy, a change of pace guy, a guy that can catch the ball out of the backfield. Well, in 2021, we encompass everything now with our star running backs. Saquine Barkley does it all beside pass protect. Christian McCaffrey does it all. Dalvin Cook, Alvin Kamara, they do it all.

Henry would be somewhat of an outlier. He's not, I would say, a catching, you know, a guy that's going to catch the ball out of the backfield. Josh Jacobs, he can catch the ball, right? I want my, Zeke, he can catch the ball. I want my running back to do it all. So my starting running back is going to stay in the game all three downs. I need a linebacker to be able to check that guy in the passing game. Just like it's why Fred Warner right now, Luke Keekly forever, those guys change your defense.

they make every tackle in the run game, and then they're able to play past defense, which we all know, because we've all seen, linebackers that cannot cover anyone, they are a major liability. And in today's game, you get exploited at just rapid rates. In recent history would show us,

you can get really good starting middle linebackers. You don't need to take them in the first round. That doesn't mean you can't get a really good linebacker in the first round. Luke Keeckley was a top 10 pick. Roquan Smith was a top. top 10 pick. You can take those guys and they can produce at a high level. But you can also find Navarro Bowman

in the third. Bobby Wagner in the second. Fred Warner in the third. There are examples. Eric Kendricks with the Vikings in the second round. You can find excellent pro bowl level guys later. So if I'm drafting in the top 10 and I go, I really

need a little middle linebacker, or let's say I'm the Eagles, who have always been, they've never been a draft a linebacker higher. I would go, well, I wouldn't draft the best linebacker at 12, I would take whatever my need is at offensive or defensive line. Can I get a sweet pass rusher? Can I get a sweet defensive tackle? Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now, I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new

The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, This is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84's big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tript Fantine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it.

And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on Earth. Or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. I get another sweet offensive lineman, and then in the second round, use that pick on a middle linebacker. Now, you could say last year where they screwed up is, now, I mean, Jalen Hertz is going to be their starting quarterback, but that would have been an area to take, you know, on hybrid linebacker. because those guys are key in today's modern game.

Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox SportsRadio.com. And within the IHeart Radio app, search FSR to listen live. Becoming a magician takes thousands of hours. Right, Ashley? Oh, I'm not a magician. I'm a design specialist at the container store. But you transform closets and pantries.

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Slash the right seat. Brought to you by NTSA and the Ad Council. Another thing that I've learned over the years and part of the study and just part of things if you talk to people in the league, the most valuable picks in the league, the most bang for your buck, are the second and third round picks. So it's basically Friday of the draft. Because I can find Derek Henry, Deshaun Jackson, Yonik and Doc Way, right, Danelle Hunter,

A.J. Brown, D.K. McCaff, Fred Warner. The list is very, very long. Of elite Michael Thomas, pro-bowl-level impact players, Eric Kendricks, Bobby Wagner, under contract for really cheap. Like, that is a huge key portion. They make, you know, under a million dollars. And you don't technically have to sign them until after the fourth year. your great players usually get extended after three years.

But that is by far the best value in the draft. Because you can get high-end starters for cheap. And the best historically area in the first round is not the top 10, because as we know, it's a 50-50 bus rate. Well, part of like drafting Solomon Thomas or Cleland Farrell or Ms. Tribisky is you use an incredibly value piece of capital on that guy, right? the Bears drafted third, they traded up to second,

they gave their second and third round pick to get Mitch Trubisky. Well, as we saw this year, the third round, the third overall pick was worth pick 12, two other first round picks, and a third round pick. So a pick in the top five is worth a shitload. So if you miss on that pick, it's a double whammy. You just blown a ton of potential capital for trading back,

and two, you got a bad player. So the picks that historically, Historically, the last several decades are the most valuable in the first round are actually like 10 to 16. It's where you get the Fletcher Coxes, the Aaron Donalds, the JJ Watts. And because they're not as valuable as a trade asset, and they're just much cheaper, like a guy at the 12th overall pick than a guy at the third overall pick. Because a guy in the top five of the NFL draft makes over $30 million on a four-year contract. It's a lot of cash.

That's what I think is fascinating about this whole draft. It's what I truly love. Obviously, the players, who's going to be good and bad is what we love to talk about. But the manipulation of the process leading up to the draft, and we've already seen several trades made, and then the trades that are made on draft night or throughout the first several rounds, the big trades. And you even see it in the second and third round.

Someone will move up in the second round and trade a future second round pick. And you just kind of, when you do some of these trades, you're typically betting on the team to be worse. when you trade future first round picks, the way it's been explained to me by people involved in the league, is they get discounted. So like when the Niners traded the Dolphins, their 2002 and 2023 first round picks,

well, the pick 12 is worth 100%, right? Because you know exactly what you're getting. You're getting pick 12. It has a tangible value. The 2020-2 first-round pick does not have a tangible value, because you've got no clue. The Niners could win one. game or they could win 15 games.

But here's what you immediately do and what NFL teams do. That pick is worth 25% of what it would be this year. So it's viewed as a discount. So it's not viewed like it's viewed as a first round pick, but it's not viewed at 100%. And then the pick in three years, 2003, technically two years I guess from right now, is viewed depending on what team you talked to like 35 to 40% discount. That's how it's viewed. So it's not viewed as like you're getting three first round picks at 100%.

Now, there's variance, right? The Texans did it with Laramie Tunzel, and that pick ended up not being a discount. It was an incredible premium. It ended up the third overall pick. We've all seen the stories of what they got for Laramie Tunzel. So there is a huge unknown in these transactions. But on the date, the transaction is placed,

those picks are viewed at a discount. The future ones or the future twos. Typically, a future two, like if I give you a 2022, let's say, let's say we flip second round picks. I come up 20 spots in this year's second round. And I give you a future two for that draft. The way teams value that is actually a third round pick. Right.

Now, that doesn't mean that second round pick may end up being really good and it's actually viewed big picture once it actually comes to fruition as much better than what you valued it for. But that's just the way it is in terms of the trade value chart. So those are just a couple things that I find pretty interesting leading up to the draft. and I'm going to enjoy keep talking about it until draft night's here. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1-800flowers.com.

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Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Furze. friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the Look Back at it podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfields of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes,

follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.