The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 3 & Out - Kansas City Chiefs handle Commanders on MNF REACTION

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Former NFL scout John Middlekauff is reacting LIVE immediately following the Week 8 Monday Night Football matchup between the Washington Commanders on the road vs. Patrick Mahomes and the Kansas City Chiefs. John will react to the biggest plays of the night, breaking news around the NFL, and much more! Finally, John answers your questions in this episode's mailbag segment. 04:18 - Commanders-Chiefs 27:10 - Green Bay Packers 31:51 - LSU & Brian Kelly 40:22 - Nick Mangold Follow John on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube for the latest.  All lines provided by Hard Rock Bet Check out Gametime - the fastest growing ticketing app in the US, and the official ticketing app of 3 & Out and GoLow -  for tickets to all of your favorite NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA teams. Concert and comedy show tickets, too. Go to Gametime now to create an account, download the app and use code JOHN for $20 off your first purchase. #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas.

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Hopefully everyone's doing well. Hopefully as well as Brian Kelly, who I just saw a stat. He's going to get $740,000 every month for the next six years. So a pretty incredible gig if you can get it. But tonight we're going to talk about the, we're going to talk about the Chiefs who just destroyed the commanders, who are now 5 and 3. Mahomes throwing his hat in the ring for MVP.

Commanders are just in a free fall right now. They're 3 and 5. They were in the NFC championship game last year. They beat the Lions on the road. And now they play Seattle coming up, which is not going to go well. That's Sunday night football, like Seattle in that spot. Then they play the Lions.

It could get ugly and it could get ugly fast. They're going to need Jay and Daniels back real quick. and the Eagles, I mean, the division already over, and they got six wins. No one else has more than three. I don't think either Dallas or Washington, best case, going to win eight. Eagles are going to cruise this division. So we'll talk about something I forgot to mention last night.

It kind of hit me today when I was driving around and run some errands about Gutikins and LaFleur. A couple thoughts on Brian Kelly and RIP Nick Mangold, who I forgot to mention last night who passed away this week. weekend. Legendary former Jets team captain, Ohio State just stud, all-time great center and lost way too soon, obviously. But I didn't want to hit on him as well as a mailbag.

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I get very angry sometimes. Some of these adories, the game time one, I do it in the back of my hand. But it can be a challenge here. They're not as easy as they look. Patrick Mahomes and the Kansas Chiefs, that was as easy as it looked. Very weird start to the game. I mean, extremely weird. The first quarter is one of the more bizarre experiences I've had this year.

in a primetime game. We had a pick off Debo's face. We had Patrick Mahomes throwing a pick to Latimore, who I think would be considered like universally shot, washed. Most people, even Troy Aikman was like, God, he really needed that one. And then Travis Kelsey had one, like, bounce off his hands, get intercepted. So we had like three interceptions within what felt like the first 20 minutes of game time. And it's like, what is going on here?

And then the game played out. And the Kansas City Chiefs put the pedal to the medal. Mahomes threw three touchdowns. Roshie Rice has a delay game penalty, throwing the ball at someone's face. Coach Reed goes, what did you do? And he does the, you know, tries to show him what he did. And Coach Reed didn't even say anything back. He's like, are you serious?

He's like, you're actually telling me what you did? But he did. And you got a delay game, but it didn't matter. He's an elite player. Travis has the Fountain of Youth. Clearly, all the wide receiver help. Marquise Brown playing all season long. Juju Smith, Adam Rishi Rice back.

Worthy's now healthy. They're running games awesome. I mean, they're missing their best two offensive linemen tonight. Trey Smith is one of the better interior offensive linemen in the NFL. I think they said on the broadcast, he missed a second game of his five-year career tonight. and Josh Simmons, who's been gone for the last several games with an unknown personal matter. But I think people have reported that signs point to him coming back in the relatively near future.

So they will get their starting left tackle back and their starting stark guard back to go along with their high-end centers. Like, their offensive line is pretty solid now. This team's coming. And it kind of hits you when you're watching them play. Like, this team's going to be in the AFC championship game again. it had a feel to that one Patriot team. I forget the year. It might have been 14, could have been 15.

They started like 2 and 2. And I think Albert Breer asked a question in a press conference. It might have been on a Monday night game where they had lost to the Kansas Chiefs if Tom Brady was in like, was there a threat for him to get benched and Jimmy Garoppolo to play? And Belichick's reaction was classic. but then the dust settled and they were in the Super Bowl I think that was the year

either they came back to Atlanta or beat the Rams I don't remember the exact year but kind of how it felt you know the Chiefs start O and 2 everyone's like they're done you know they looked a little weird

and even when they lost the Jags game that is the game they always won and obviously Mahomes throws the 99 yard pick 6 it's hard to feel like it's not really their year and then as we get to Halloween it's like they're going to be, especially if they win this weekend against the bills. If they win this weekend against the bills going on the road, take down the bills who have

played really well against them and beat them countless times in the regular season, and you go six and three into the buy, I think depending on what happens over these next several weeks with the Colts, and who knows, can the Colts maintain a 15 win pace? Maybe they can. I think the Chiefs immediately become a threat to be the number one seat. but most importantly, this isn't just a playoff team, this is a contender, and this is a Super Bowl contender. And, you know, they have the most important combination in the NFL, which I would say, most people would say they have the number one version of this. The coach, the quarterback, and the defensive coordinator.

Because their head coach is the offensive coordinator. So whoever your two coordinators are, typically now in the NFL, one of them, for a lot of them, for a lot of, lot of, you know, these teams, it's their offensive coordinator. McVeigh, Shanahan, Sean Payton, LaFle, right, Kevin O'Connell. And then their defensive coordinator is extremely important. Flores, Shula, Sala, Spags, and the quarterback. Well, they got arguably one of the best quarterbacks of all time that I would have told you you were probably need to put down the drugs maybe a month ago. But you watch him the night and you've watched him the night and you've watched in the last several games now that he's got

his arsenal of weapons back and you go that's the best player in the league and the MVP odds have shown like how is Patrick so high in the MVP odds how is Patrick so high in the MVP odds? It kind of hit me tonight like well he wins next week in Buffalo and he ends up throwing several touchdowns

a game moving forward this guy's going to win the MVP of the league and here's what he has going for him because sometimes narratives matter it really helped Josh last year right because, in fairness, he had never won it. And he was clearly one of the best players in the league. He was in that trio or quattro of Burrow, Lamar, Mahomes, and him.

They were the leaders of the pack, and he was playing great. He probably could have won it previous years. But like there was a lot of momentum for him. Just like early in his career, there was a lot of momentum for Patrick. Then we completely shifted. We had gone all in with Josh and Lamar, rightfully so. You could argue there were times. Those guys were playing.

better than Patrick Mahombs. It wasn't really debatable. Now, he flipped a switch in the playoffs, so did his team, and they would beat them in the playoffs. But it's a regular season award, and those other guys earned it. Well, this year, especially after the O and two start, everyone kind of wrote them off. I was probably, I don't know if I want to say I'm guilty, but I definitely thought like, yeah, this could just be a nine and eight season. Understandable. You got some injuries, a little transition, you're missing some players, Xavier Worthy gets hurt the first game. You know, your defense has some holes.

You know, Chris Jones is going to pick his spots. No, that's not what's going to happen. And this is why when you have Josh Allen, when you have Lamar Jackson, when you have Patrick Mahomes, when you have Joe Burrow, your chip's all going to be in the middle of the table every single year. Because as long as they're on the field, they give you a chance. And this guy, the reason we talk about him in such a high regard, like, I love football.

love watching good quarterback play. I loved watching Marcel Reed on Saturday night in Louisiana with that performance. It was just spectacular. I admire it. I appreciate how difficult it is on the road in these environments. I understand the pressure of playing in these primetime games. And to watch Mahomes, and this is what, you know, being critical of some young quarterbacks and stuff, you have to do the easy stuff well, right? Like when you're running back hits a wheel route and it's third and five and that is schemed up and he will walk to a first down. You not only need to hit him, you need to hit him in stride.

Patrick Mahomes does that shit with his eyes closed. Quick outs, slants, timing routes on second and eight, third and nine, stuff that is going to get to the first down or not a first down of the difference in punting and keeping the chains and the drive going. That's what he majors in that. But his ability and what he's really shown over the last couple weeks is like, kind of feels like we're getting that throwback what made the guy kind of legendary. We called him Farvian.

We called him like the Steph Curry of football. And he's doing that again. And it's harder to do that when you don't have players to throw it to. And Stucky was on my podcast a couple weeks ago. And he brought up a good point. He's like, I think Travis was just a product of the receivers were injured and everyone kind of condensed in the middle of the field and took that away from. Well, when you got Hollywood Brown playing well, when you got Juju Smith playing well, when you bring back Rice, you got the speed of worthy. When you're running backs can catch the ball, it just opens the field a little bit.

So all of a sudden you're watching Travis Kelsey, he just looks a little bit younger than he did previous years. Maybe he's not. Maybe it's just simply he has more room to operate. And listen, is he as quick and explosive as he was four or five years ago? Of course not. But he's so smart, even on the one big play today, what's he doing? He's it on pass protection. What does Mahomes do? He's looking around.

He's looking around. Nothing's there. All of a sudden, Travis realizes there's no one there. Slip out. Mahomes, elite instincts, looks, dumps him the ball off. Huge game. Maybe in his younger years, he scores a touchdown on that play. But I'm watching Patrick Mahomes.

Holmes and I go, that's MVP. I mean, that's, so the Chiefs, can they win the AFC? I think we all acknowledge, yes, they can. This version of them, when you have Andy Reed, when you got Spag scheming it up, and you got quarterback play at this level, even if you're going to be, let's say Denver wins the division, and they're a 12 win team and Denver's a 13 win team, and you're the five seed. You think you're worried if you're Kansas City about going on the road and take care of

business? You think you're scared to go on the road to play the Pittsburgh Steelers? Of course not. So I think the Chiefs have really figured it out. And I think it starts and really ends with this quarterback. I feel like he flipped a switch. I really do. And it's easier to make plays when you have more talent around you. But he feels a little just more dialed in than, and he's just playing at a higher level. He does this in the playoffs, but over the last couple years in the regular season, it could just be a little hit or miss. And the version we're seeing right now, like this is the first couple years when he started, like doing the miraculous stuff. And the talent around them is really good. And they're just playing at a high level. Now,

obviously Washington's not very good. Like I look at Washington like a six or seven win team. But what is a good team due to a bad team? They destroy them. And that's exactly what happened tonight. 28 to 7. Let's just pick up some stats here. Chiefs, 26 first downs, Washington 14. You know, the Chiefs could be a little bit better on third down. They were four or ten, but good on fourth down. That's another thing with Washington. And we talked about this over the course of the season with Stucky on the gambling aspect. They were so good on fourth down last year. They were like 22 of 24. It were 22 of 25. Whatever the number was. It was insane because of the quantity of the times they went for it, but of obviously

the times that they executed it. And you watch them now, and obviously with Marriota, there's a big difference with Jay and Daniels, but the magic's just kind of gone. And this is what's so difficult. I was thinking this on Saturday, watching Alabama play. Think how many years that program has been the game that every team on their side. schedule circles. I mean, we're going on easily over 15. Like, once Nick Saban really established the program in like 2010. So for all the 2010s and this entire decade, including right now, every single team that plays them, every non-conference team and every SEC team circles them. For the Chiefs now, since Patrick Bahams, like, they were a good team before Patrick got there.

When Patrick got there, they accelerated to just an elite operation. So for the last, six or seven years. Every team on the schedule, obviously divisional teams, but every non-divisional team you play, it's arguably the biggest regular season game of their season. You are getting everyone's best fight. You are walking into the ring, and they are going to give you however many Mike Tyson rights they have,

and some might have more than others, right? Obviously, Washington doesn't have much tonight. But tonight, if you're Washington, even with your backup quarterback, your three and four, this was a kitchen sink game. and this would have been even if they were a fully loaded team. It's a really big deal to play the Kansas Chiefs. When you are forever LeBron James or Steph Curry or Tiger Woods, you're getting everyone's best shot every single time you play them.

Because you are their biggest deal. And I'm watching the Chiefs tonight just thinking like that's really hard. It's why I always say like it's really hard to maintain a high level of play as a team, as an individual player, as a coach. Like, anyone at the highest level can have a good game. Hell, most guys can have a good season. But being a great player is doing it year in, year out. What they say tonight, Travis Kelsey,

that was his 100th career touchdown, including the playoffs. I think it was like his 83rd during the regular season. You know how long that guy has been a good player? I mean, we're going on well over a decade of basically, every year you're getting, I would say, on average, 85 catches. And I bet he had a stretch where he was scoring 7, 8 touchdowns a year. I mean, basically since he didn't really play as a rookie, his second year, 67 catches, 72 catches, 85 catches, 83 catches, 100 catches, 97 catches, 105 catches, 92

catches, 110 catches, 93 catches, 90 fucking 7. catches last year. Every single year, he's clocking in to kick ass. Even when people like me, he's lost a step. I lost a step, 97 catches. Now I get it, there's an extra game. We throw the ball more, especially with a coach like Andy Reid. It's going to be different than playing for some of his coaches. But still, do you know how difficult that is? And I watched, this is what makes the league so hard. Washington, I'm guilty of this. It's like they got Jane Daniels. Incredible player. It's like I like C.J. Stroud a lot his rookie year who didn't.

I felt like Jaden was on a different level. When you factored in the dual threat, it was just like they got Dan Quinn, this established coach. They got Adam Peters, who's been groomed to be this great GM. You got Bob Myers, who's in there giving tips. You got Magic Johnson hanging out with Josh Harris. I'm like, this thing's a rocket ship. Year 2.

They'll probably go like 6 and 11 or 7 and 10. I get it. They had some injuries. but still it's like that's how fast it can the Chiefs now since Andy Reid has got there I think they've had one down year where they missed the playoffs they went 9 and 7 1. It is really difficult

because last year Washington didn't have this they got to fly into the radar they had been one of the shittiest franchises in the league for two decades so no one takes them that seriously even if they have this special quarterback now by the end of the year you're kind of okay this team's got a winning record

then all of a sudden you look you're in the NFC championship game It's one of the great seasons like franchises had in 30 years. It's like all the hype coming back this year. And now you're just getting throttled. And in fairness, like it's not, I'm not blaming these guys for like feeling themselves or getting the disease of me. Some of it's just, you know, Jaden's been banged up. Obviously, McLoran's missed some games. I have nothing but respect for Bobby Wagner.

Absolute badass. He's a liability now. I mean, you see his speed trying to cover. guys. I mean, he used to be one of the best line. He's a Hall of Famer. It's one of the great players of his generation. But this is a thing in football. You know, and once you're, you lose

a step at linebacker in, in the way the league is played now, it's a space league. They use running backs in the passing game. You've got to cover people and you just feel like Dan Quinn talked about it. Like, we don't feel as fast. Well, your middle linebacker is not as fast. And your pass rush isn't as good.

Like, you're depending on Javon Kinlaw, who's solid player. but like that's one of your main guys on defense. Lattimore, who's had a really bad season. They've depended on some guys who've fallen up. Now, McLaurin, you saw tonight, made like two of the better catches of the year. I mean, the catch on the sideline

were Marriota throws the lollipop to keep his foot, one, it's just incredible touch on the pass, but to slow his feet down like he's Chris Carter and catch that thing, that was awesome. It was so good. The referee was literally standing there, and was like, out of bounds, out of bounds. They showed the replay.

It's like, that's pretty easily in bounds. But honestly, when it happened in real time, you're like, ah, that he didn't catch that, no chance. And then he did, same thing on the one down the sideline. You're like, that's out of bounds. Then you see, you're like, no, he caught it. This is where I defended Terry McLaurin. It's like, listen, there is no way that I'm going to make the same money

as Debo Samuel on this team. because I'm a dynamic outside wide receiver and he's and this is no shade of Debo, I have a lot of respect for him, but like, if you are building a team based on who's better gets paid more,

you got to pay Terry McLaren more. And I thought Debo would have a big impact for him doesn't quite feel like he hasn't been terrible, but, you know, they're just missing a little juice. At the end of the day, like, Baham's doesn't miss games. And this is the other thing with Jayden.

And this is, we talked about this last week. You know, they get back to the Herm Edwards thing. Like, the best ability is availability. And that's obviously not true. The best ability is like your actual ability. Right. Like some guys have way less ability than Chris Jones. So it's like, yeah, you can put them a defensive tackle.

They're going to get stoned by centers and guards. So like you've got to have ability. But at that level, like most guys have a lot of ability. But then if you're not available, like Brock Purdy might end up playing like three games. this season. They've paid him $200 million. Like, that's a disaster. It's no one's fault. Obviously, no one's trying to get injured.

But it's just, that's a problem. You know, and especially, it's one thing when you have catastrophic injuries, nothing you can do. When it's just these injuries, like, what's the reason for this? Is it something you're doing, putting yourself in harm's way? Because you're, all of our jobs now, coaching staff, front office, a lot of players on the team are tied to you. you. Like, we go

as you go. Ask everyone in Kansas City what it's like to have Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid in the front seat driving that bus. It's been glorious. Financially, wins and loss-wise, the moments they've had to just

everything about it. But like, you've got to be able to depend on the guy. And that's going to be something like if Jaden wants to have this great career, which he has the physical capabilities, he's got to be on the field. and you watch Marriota, who I looked up, fascinating career, right? When he came out of college, and I always give, like, the college guys a little grace on this.

You know, I remember having Joel Clatt on the radio show, and Rick Newheisel, too. They both thought he was like the next Steve Young. It's like, I don't know. I like Marriota, who doesn't? He's like, an all-time great character guy. Could be a little inaccurate, you know, when you really watched him in Oregon, guys weren't wide open. But he was an easy guy to root for. But he's a good example.

I looked it up today. he's made $83 million. And he hasn't been a starter in years. If you are a good guy, right, and you're on that tier that, like, you know, I'm not going to be a top 12, 15 quarterback. But people are going to love me. You can make a lot of money in the NFL. And like at the end of the day, if Mario Ed has started a lot of games, you're going to lose a lot of them. But he's got another year after this, maybe a couple.

When it's all said and done, he might get a couple more $5 million contracts. He might make $100 million by the time he's 36, 37 years old as a backup quarterback. And I think that's a good lesson for life. Like be a good person, treat people well. Be someone, like part of being valuable in certain industries is like be a guy that other people want to be around. Ask Joe Flacco or people that have employed Joe Flacco what that means. They like being around Joe Flacco. I said this about Mark Sanchez.

I always heard that with Mark Sanchez. Remember, he had a long career as a backup. People loved him. And there was a fact, Chase Daniel was a guy that played for like 15 years in the NFL. I think he had like four career starts, made like $40 million. So the value of Marriota is not that he's a good player.

Because most guys, if you have to become a starter when you're the backup and Marriota has to start eight games this year, they're going to lose the majority of them, right? And they basically pay him to not. not play. And there are some guys like, Mac Jones, you can win some games with. And Mac Jones is a good example of that. Mac Jones can become a guy that can just have a long career making $8 to $10 million is the best backup in the league. And maybe one team, one year will give him like one year $20 million to be a bridge quarterback so he can inflate his overall earnings over the

course of his career. And you can't turn that down. But like, if you're one of those guys, I love this guy in the quarterback room. I want this guy around my young quarterback. Because most bad teams are always looking to draft young quarterbacks. Well, who do you want around a young quarterback? A high-level guy. What did the Chiefs do when they basically inserted Patrick Mahomes when they traded Alex Smith? Brett Veach and Andy Reid had a goal to find a backup quarterback. The guy had to be married.

They wanted a mature guy around their young quarterback. Who'd they sign and hire? Chad Henney. What Chad Hennie do? Make millions of dollars for years being the backup for Patrick Mahomes. and is beloved in that building. And I remember hearing a story that when Chad Haney was like, I'm retiring, they're like, hey, Chad, can you help us find a backup quarterback?

So I think he did some interviewing for them. Like, that's the type guy. Like when you watch Flacco, now Flackos, you know, probably shouldn't be starting, but he's another one of those guys. You just want him around. James. Look at the career James has kind of cut out for him. Look at Gardner Minchu.

People just like Gardner Minchew. Now, if Gardner Minchu's got to start for you, you got problems. But I bet if you ask Andy and Patrick and Nagy, like, oh, we love Gardner. He's awesome. Great vibes in the meeting room. Helps everyone study, good film breakdown guy. We like him around. We are extremely excited to announce our new presenting sponsor, Hard Rock Bet.

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We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts.

Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what should. we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band

before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what.

He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall.

And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the bar.

Like, you go through a training camp with that Isaiah, you figure it out. real quick. Get your ass up and down the court and you're going to get the bomb. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is. Getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is. Getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the Civil War. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Lee Boulevard. Get to the grocery store. I

had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway. If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky Statehouse that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit.

How do you represent that? They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Keith Gianmanca seemed like a mild-mannered suburban dad. But secretly, he became someone else, a master of disguise who went on a crime spree. At the time, did it seem like a crazy idea? It seemed very crazy.

But I felt so desperate that I felt it was. the quickest, easiest way out. Did you allow yourself to think about how it could go wrong and what that might look like? No, I didn't want to manifest that. I was trying to manifest success. Every family has its secrets. But what happens when you discover that your dad

has been living a double life? That is not the look of an innocent man. This is going to change my life and my family dynamic forever because everything that had, existed prior in my reality is now untrue. Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A couple other things. I don't think I did a good job last night.

Sometimes, you know, when we just do these instant reactions, I'm thinking the next day, I'm like, ah, I wish I would have said that. I don't know if Gutakins and the floor get enough credit. You know, we talked a lot about this, you know, the big news today. I have big news today, but it was news today that Carson Wentz, I think the whole right side of his body just doesn't work. His pack, his shoulder. I mean, he's just, who knows if it'll ever work again, but he's out for the year. And when you make a decision with a quarterback, we always assume, like, the chiefs traded Alex Smith to go with Patrick Mahomes. they thought he was going to be really good, but they didn't know until he played.

Like, you know, they didn't, they never knew it was going to be this. I mean, they hoped he'd be an explosive player, a good player, could be a French pro bowl guy, and maybe have a higher ceiling. Turns out he's one of the great players of all time. But that move took balls. And any time you make a quarterback move, let Sam Donald go for J.G. McCarthy. Like, that takes stones. And I admire, like, it's so much easier to make suggestions.

than decisions, you make a decision, and you're going to be right or wrong based on the results. But the process of the decision, I understand most of these choices, besides the Atlanta Falcons and the way they set that up. But I understood what Minnesota did. And I think Goodakins and LaFleur, it's easier to let a Sam Darnold go to Seattle

or trade in Alex Smith to Washington than it is to trade Aaron Rogers after he's won multiple MVP's on your watch. and made you a lot of money and made you as a coach and GM look really good. And the conviction they had, and listen, like, it could have gone wrong. Even if Rogers gets traded to the Jets and nothing changes, he still tells Achilles, his career is going like it's going. If Jordan Love sucks, which clearly is possible, right,

whenever you insert a young quarterback, whether he's a former first rounder or a fifth rounder, He might not be good at NFL football. It is clearly not a exact science, and we don't really have any more of a clue now than we did 30, 20, 15 years ago. We've been missing on these guys forever. And Jordan Love clearly was a wild card. Utah didn't play that much. He just didn't know.

It's not like he came from a Power 4 conference. He was playing at Utah State against San Diego States and New Mexico's. Now, he had a lot of physical ability, but you're kind of keeping your fingers crossed. Now, they had years working with them behind the scenes, but still, like, it hasn't, I don't think it could have gone much better. To go from Rogers to a guy that could just be one of the best quarterbacks in your conference and be a starting quarterback on a team several years later, I mean, they've gone to the playoffs back to back years. Two years ago, they won a game on the road against the Cowboys. And this year, if they stay healthy, they are going to be a major threat to be the number one. one overall seed.

So back like when Ted Thompson traded Favre to go with Rogers, the nuts that takes, because the easy thing to do is, and most people in life, whether you work at Google, whether you work at Welsh Fargo or whether you work for an NFL team, are going to take the safe route for job preservation. I don't think anyone would have blamed them, and I don't think most people, even if they believed in Jordan Love, like it, the easy thing would have been. like, let's just try to keep Aaron Rogers. Like, you know what?

Let's break up. Let's do this. We will pull the trigger and trade you away and go with Jordan Love. And it's worked out. Obviously, his career, I'm not saying, has been perfect. But you watch him the other night against Pittsburgh on the road on Sunday night football. Just slinging it all over the place. And a couple things he did, like, we talk a lot about quarterbacks being reckless.

And when I talk about that, it's more when they're running around. You've got to be careful and you've got to just hit the ground. You can't take these just unneeded shots. You are going to take shots when you're sitting in the pocket, holding on to that ball for that extra split second to get the guy open. And he did that multiple times last night. Like his toughness was on full display. And I think there is not a GM, obviously just this year,

you would rather have Jordan Love than Aaron Rogers. And over the last several years, it's not even a question, given that he's hurt and now old. And I'm not acting like Aaron Rogers some scrub now. he's still solid player. But what a move by those two guys. Brian Kelly, I want to hit on this really quick because I've been thinking a lot about this, having just been around coaches and haven't been doing this for a living for a long time

and watching all these guys' careers closely and, you know, knowing a lot of guys that work for a lot of these coaches and, you know, these scouts that go into these different programs and I always ask them about. And listen, I get like unsolicited texts from guys that, You know, Luke Fickle a couple weeks ago refuted a report that, I guess it had come out, like Dane Brugler and said, like, it's really important to watch some of these guys during games for Wisconsin because he doesn't let you into practice. And then someone had asked Luke Fickle about that report, and Luke Fickle had called it a lie. He said, we're not North Carolina. And then my scouting buddy had sent me a text like, no, he 100% is.

No one's allowed to watch his practices. He's like, not only is fickle disliked by most NFL teams because he's not a likable guy, but he's a liar. And I was like, I didn't know. I just assumed fickle's like kind of like a Mike Vrable. Like, no, people can't stand the guy. And clearly Brian Kelly, and I think Belichick can be used as an example too, are people that when their teams were winning, like Notre Dame or the, the, New England Patriots didn't like the guy. They're not likable humans.

But you're winning and you respect their ability to put you in a position to win more. Right. We all, I'm sure many of you listening, depending on what business you're in, do deals, do partnerships, work with people that you do not like and honestly probably can't stand. But if it's financially beneficial and you are literally making money because of it and the guy's not like a criminal or whatever, you just kind of suck it up and deal with it. Called life.

But when you don't win, or in my example, when you aren't making money, you're like, I ain't doing this shit, no way. Well, why do you think everyone's turned on Belichick over the last four or five years? Because that act, when you're absolutely miserable, you have no personal relationship with any of these guys, specifically your players, it's not going to work. And this is not the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, where you could just be like that and no one ever pushes back.

Now, I'm a big believer that I think it's overrated a little bit like different generations. I think anyone worth their salt wants to be pushed to their highest level of potential. And I think athletes are no different than whatever we do, that when you're around the right guy that establishes a relationship with you, that you know can take you to another level, you can deal with some quote-unquote hard coaching. Like Dan Campbell, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh, LaFleur, those guys are, quote-unquote, lighting people up when they need to be.

But they also have a personal relationship with them. I bet if you went to a Kirby smart practice, you're going to hear some F-bombs. But I bet if you went to the cafeteria when he's hanging out with the linebackers or the DBs, like, he knows them all pretty well. even Nick Saban's a good example where he screamed at people constantly, and I've known a lot of people that worked for him, it was difficult,

but you knew that it was going to work. Nick Saban could not have done what he did if he was winning six games a year. Everyone would have quit, and players would have been a mutiny. But they were winning so big, everyone just bought in. That's the problem with Brian Kelly in LSU. I thought that everyone made a little bit too big a deal about the accent and the family and just everything about that. But looking back, he was a fish out of water.

And he tried to pretend he was something he was not. And I saw a bunch of people, I feel like I follow a lot of people from Louisiana. They're like, this notion that you've got to be from Louisiana to coach this team is bullshit. You could be from wherever. You just need to have the passion, the energy, and the want to. be here, and people will embrace you. It obviously got to win games. It almost felt like Brian Kelly

never dove head first into the defense. Like, I consider people like Nick Sabin's not quote him from the South, and he's from West Virginia. He had coached at LSU. But several years in, he felt part of Alabama.

And like Alabama felt part of him. They were intertwined. And you felt Brian Kelly. It felt like he was just a hired mercenary. Almost a lot like some of these players. Look at Florida State. They have been kings of just buying players on the transfer portal. And when it works, it's awesome.

When it doesn't, guys just tap out. Because there's not like that sweat equity and loyalty. You look last year at Ohio State making the run, what did they have going for? They had a lot of guys who had been there for years. Everyone was rowing in the same direction. they were all part of the same deal. Where it felt like Brian Kelly, it's weird.

I know he had LSU on his shirt, but he always felt like, I don't know, the red face guy from Boston that was the Notre Dame coach. It was just doing this because they gave him $90 million. And it felt like he could never really be himself. And part of being himself is just he's truly an asshole. Like there's just, and I think sometimes like,

some people, that's just their personality. Like not everyone's just, Super friendly, and that's fine. Just be true to yourself. Be authentic to who you are. One of Lane Kiffin's things that he's doing really well right now, he just feels pretty authentic. He's kind of a goofy, making jokes,

not that serious all the time. That's, I think, kind of his personality. I remember when I was scouting and he was the USC head coach, he was actually, back then he tried to act like Belichick, didn't talk to anybody, was kind of a dick, tried to put on this, like, front. and it didn't really work and it was a disaster for him

and in life when people think you're an asshole if you are not the best of the best either the top moneymaker the top coach the top player they will turn on you first so Brian Kelly

like Billy Napier is a good example people like Billy Napier down in Florida why nice guy people got along with him so he got a longer rope even though it clearly was not working life's not that complicated. People want good people to have good things happen to them.

When people think you're a bad guy, which Brian Kelly, the display he had on the sideline, was like, just a bad guy. You're just a bad guy. We all know him. It's like, yeah, that's James, man. Just stay away from him. Do not do a deal with that guy.

A lot of shady stories about him. We all know these people. Even if you can have a one-on-one interaction, maybe over beer and he's cool. You just saw that guy. You just do not trust this guy. Brian Kelly looks like a guy you don't trust. And obviously, Jimmy Sexton being his agent, got him a lot of money.

He did a good job at Notre Dame, but it just felt like, I don't know. I mean, just to fish out of water and he could just resort to what he knows best. And that's just being a royal dick to everybody. and you can pull that off when you're winning 11 games and going to the college football playoff. You can pull that off when you're kicking ass and taking names. When you're winning seven games and your team's unwatchable

and you're not only not from that area but you're from a long way away where people talk differently, they vote differently, and overall they just think about life differently, they're going to turn on you. And they turned on them immediately. And most people had already turned on them. But that switch gets flipped so much faster

when people don't like you. And last but not least, I meant to talk about this last night. But you know, about three or four days ago, my wife shows me her phone. She's like, do you see this about the guy on the Jets? I'm like, what? He needs a kidney transplant. I'm like, who? What? And then I read it, Nick Mangold basically gave out this plea. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. was last week that he had this kidney disease since I think it was going on close to 20 years they had known about it but it had gotten really bad and he needed a transplant and obviously then the news broke over the weekend that he had died and I think as you get older you know I've lost a parent I've lost people that I went to high school with or grew up with you know as you age you just

you experience life but it never gets easier and I've never met Nick Mangold But I think one enduring fact of the sport of football is that offensive linemen, there is a relatability to that position, especially to certain individuals in that group, that is just undeniable. And there was like this, he almost felt like a television character with the big beard and just the big smile. But Wikipedia.

I mean, he went to the Pro Bowl every year. He was a multiple time all pro. He was an ass-kicking team captain for a team that for a couple years was one of the best teams in the league. And he was obviously the anchor of that team because it sure wasn't the quarterback. And you see guys as you get older, you know, you start, especially for me, I'm about to have a child. You see 1984-2005. And you go, God, I was born in 1984 too. and it really humanizes just the situation of like this guy that had the world by the balls,

this all-American former first round pick, I don't know, potential Hall of Famer, who was universally loved from Ohio State to the NFL to every single person that I have seen that played with Nick Mangold was in tears. And you just see this guy. He had four children who I haven't Googled their ages, but I would imagine they're relatively young. And it just rips at your heart. I said this when I got involved in the NFL,

and I remember when I was in college in like the mid-2000s, a lot of guys were getting in trouble, right? Or at least it felt like that. And that was when Roger Goodell kind of took over, like the judge jury and executioner. You know, he started suspending guys, and he became like the hammer. And I remember working the NFL.

I'm like, I don't think that, and I remember going to the combines, like I think most of these guys are pretty good guys. I think most of these individuals, if they weren't playing football, would be high level contributing members of society. And the amount of guys in this upper percentage, there's a small percentage of America

that is able to do this. And a tiny, tiny percentage of them are knuckleheads and idiots. Most of them are like, pretty trustworthy high-level guys. And then the super-high-level guys of that group were like, this guy could probably run a bank. And this guy, thank God this guy is not a podcaster

because I probably wouldn't have a job. And that's kind of what it felt like for Nick Mangold. And there was obviously, you know, Rex had a pretty good couple minutes on TV the other day. I think any offensive lineman, the number one thing they want to be known for is toughness. And that feels like a defining attribute for a guy that you don't become a seven-time pro-bowler,

and this is before the pro-bowl became fake, like when guys went and multiple-time all-pro at center and not be one of the toughest guys in the league. But it also shows you, and this humanizes that I think we all can relate to, if Nick Mangolden's prime was in a bar fight, like there wouldn't be that many people that he would have trouble with. Yet in life, when something goes wrong inside of you, It doesn't matter how tough or how big or how strong or how many Pro Bowls you made.

You're in trouble. And it just sucks. And I don't really know what else to say besides, I just think you saw the NFL community was pretty rocked by losing Nick Mann gold at 41 years old. Just a pretty legendary figure of his era. Hey, it's us, the Jonas brothers. And guess what? We have some big news.

What's the news, huge news? we created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special.

So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast,

where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game.

His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall.

Then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Keith Gianmanca seemed like a mild-mannered suburban dad, but secretly, he became someone else, a master of disguise who went on a crime spree. At the time, did it seem like a crazy idea? It seemed very crazy, but I felt so desperate that I felt it was the quickest, easiest way out. Did you allow yourself to think about how it could go wrong or what that might look like? No. I didn't want to manifest that.

I was trying to manifest success. Every family has its secrets. But what happens when you discover that your dad has been living a double life? That is not the look of an innocent man. This is going to change my life and my family dynamic forever because everything that had existed prior in my reality is now untrue. Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man. the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is, getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is, getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the Civil War. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Lee Boulevard. Get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway. If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes. In Rebel Spirit, Season 2 goes deep on both of those things.

The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky State House that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit. How do you represent that? They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit season two on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's do a little thing we like to call the Middlecough Mailback. Now, you guys are obviously watching this today after the game, so I don't know the results if there are questions come up regarding that. But at John Middlecough, at John Middlecough, I check my DMs that probably look like a hot babe on IG loaded with dudes, except they're just asking me football questions. Occasionally live questions, sometimes about where to play golf in Scottsdale. and one of you guys actually hit me up with some gluten-free recommendations. So we're tempted to make the lifestyle change. We'll see if I'm able to pull it off. But here's the thing.

At John Middlecoff is the Middilcoff mailback, Monday Middilcoff mailback. Fire in those DMs, get your questions answered on the show. Obviously it comes out on Tuesday. What are your thoughts on the Eagles hopes, specifically KP? I think he's alluding to Kevin Patola, after the win yesterday. I think the Eagles, the last couple weeks, 28 points against the Vikings. Obviously, Jalen had a big breakout. Yesterday, 38 points.

Someone had forwarded me the stats on Jalen Hertz. I don't think most people right now would be like, what's Jalen done this year? You'd be like, ah, not that great. Looking at 15 touchdowns and one interception. Then if you factor in his rushing touchdowns, he has five. So he has 20 touchdowns this year. only halfway through the season. I mean, if you go 16, 70 games and you produce 40 touchdowns

and only one or two picks, he's got to throw some more picks, but if he only throws five and he goes, a 40 touchdowns to five interceptions passing and running, that's pretty remarkable. Now part of it's a tush push, but even if the tush push didn't exist, he'd be a good, you know, short yardage quarterback and he's a threat to run. So it's weird. I think it felt like he was having a weird season. Not that bad.

I do think for the Eagles, the moment of truth is these next couple weeks, right? Technically, they are not the number one seed because the Packers tied that game against the Cowboys. Right? So if the Cowboys, you know, I don't think the Eagles, the Eagles would have liked the Cowboys to pull that thing off. But regardless, they play the Packers in a week. I think it looks like on Monday night football. So the Eagles are on a buy, and then they get Monday night football, and then they get Sunday night football against the Lions.

So they got to go to Lambo and then they play the Lions at home. So I think we're going to learn a lot about them in terms of is just the number one seed or is this like the three seed? If they get the number one seed, they're going to be very difficult to beat. If you got to play that extra game, it's like the college football playoffs. You have a massive advantage. I know Ohio State won the championship last year, but you don't have to play the first game.

And then you get a second game. you get to rest your guys. It's a big deal. So I guess ironically, the teams in the playoffs last year, maybe that's a bad thing to use as an example because neither of them got a home field buy. But I think we'd all choose a buy. Every single coach, every single player at any level would go,

do you want to buy in the playoffs? They would say yes. So I do think that these next two games are going to define the Eagles. I also think that internally, like, I know the way how he works. he's got a brain that never stops and they're always throwing ideas

and after you had, now the Giants run defense is pretty terrible and they're playing backup corners there's no doubt they're having the conversation could we win the Super Bowl could we win the NFC they're winning the NFC East right I don't care what the outcome was Monday night

which I'd be stunned if Washington won but the Cowboys best are going 8, 8 and 1 the Giants are winning four or five games commanders probably I don't know eight nine that's health related could be worse so the eagles are cruising to this division I think the question mark is what do we need to beat the lions to to beat the packers to beat the rams to beat Seattle to beat Tampa Bay do we need AJ Brown because can we trade them now they're not going to give them away and Jeffrey

Lurie talked about this at the owner's meetings which I respect because a lot of owners like kind of beat around this bush like yeah we'll only do something it's best for the Philadelphia Eagles like they're not just getting they don't need to just get rid of AJ but the elephant in the room is AJ and Jayland don't like each other brand of Graham told us last year they can walk that back we we know the truth and there's nothing wrong with that we all worked with people or currently work with people people listening right now that you do not necessarily like for whatever reason sometimes it's stupid but I I do believe that uh they will entertain it now it's got to be a lot like I to me the minimum would be like a two and a three because I I I I do believe that I I'm

it's like we'll just keep them and do new england you know depending on where they stand like hey i j is under contract too so if you trade for him you don't like it's not like a rental this isn't like your trade deadline he's leaving i'm trying to pull up his contract here uh yeah i mean he's not a free agent for years so you basically you got control of them for a while could you get two twos for him would new england do that Is that too short-sighted when they still got a long way to go? Or they're like, hell, we're equipped to win now. Question for the back.

Both the NFC West and the NFC North could potentially have three teams in the playoffs. Which do you think is more likely? Or do you think they might have to cancel each other out as they play each other in the division? Well, I don't think the NFC North is getting three teams in. I think the Packers and the Lions are playoff teams. I think Minnesota's in Chambles. Carson Wentz, I just saw on the ticker, is out for the season. I mean, it felt like he almost died on Thursday night.

Like, seriously, I have a lot of respect for him. He was getting the crap kicked out of him. And clearly, he has a shoulder worked on now, and he's out for the year. You know, it's like, okay, JJ, you're up, buddy. There's no backstop here. There's no, you can just disappear. And your team's banged up. Like, Godspeed, I don't think it's going to go well.

And at the end of the day, the Bears, like, their quarterback play just isn't good enough. It's just that simple. And, like, they're going to be competitive. If I had to bet right now, I think Minnesota finishes last in that division. I think Minnesota is going to lose a lot because it's hard to win with bad quarterback play. Like Caleb is up and down, but he's still better than JJ McCarthy. So I think it would be, if it's anything, it's the NFC West. But like, I think the Niners are taking on so many injuries.

Like, their best case is probably 9 and 8. Now they are 5 and 3, which means they have 9 games left. If they go 4 and 5, they're 9 and 8. and I think they would probably be the seventh seat. After seeing Miles Garrett annihilate the Giants O' line and still losing by 19 points, I think you mean the Patriots. I was thinking how bad and how dysfunctional

and how disorganized the NFL franchise can be for this long. In the last 35 years, they had four winning seasons. Will this franchise ever be fixed? What I don't understand is, and I'm not in the business of trading, talents like Miles Garrett. But when you've had him for years, for years, and you haven't won anything, and then he's over 30 years old, and he goes, guys, I want to trade.

He says that. This is our out. And he's still so good that you could have traded him. I think pre-draft, you could have gotten two ones and two-toes. For a guy that is, I mean, whoever would have given him a contract would basically be playing for 31 to 35. So Miles Garrett is 20, he turns 30 in December. So you could have traded a guy that 29 to 34, right?

You've gotten the best years out of him. He's still an elite player. But like, you bought, you didn't buy low because you're having them high. But you've gotten the best version of them and you can still trade them for a lot. Like there's nothing better in the world of asking. You get a premium, you get to use that premium for a long time, and then when you choose to sell that premium, it is, you know, the value of it has increased, right? You want an increasing asset. That's what Miles Garrett was, and he told you to trade me, and they said no, and they extended them. Like, what's the point of having him make all these plays and look sweet and have 25 sacks on a team that's going to win four games?

It makes no sense. Now, I do believe because if you watch their GM who treats everyone like widgets, there's no way they didn't want to trade them. And the owner wouldn't let them. So it all gets back to ownership. Because it makes no sense.

They could have traded them with their eyes closed. They would have had a bidding war between 10 teams. All the good ones would have been really interested. From the Eagles to the Ravens, the Bills, the Lions, the Packers, the Niners, the teams would have been lined up. but they paid them and now they still suck. The whole thing's pointless.

This is why I am so critical of the Browns is they get like so much credit because it's like God, they're GM, their head coach, dynamic individuals. Like, I watch their team, they're awful, always. If normal football people, if the Jason Lights of the world or SpyTech's team just sucks forever,

he will get just shit on at the highest level by everyone in the media. It's like, ah, the Browns are just chugging along. I don't know, man. Every time I look over and they're in a little four box, they're getting curb stomped. Make this a real simple question. How the hell does Zach Taylor still have a job?

You know, it's a unique organization. And I would guess if when the dust settles, if they go 7 and 10, 6 and 11, something like that with the flaco situation, and they're liable to lose any game because their defense stinks. You know, it's crazy. I wasn't really paying attention to that game because they were just in complete control the whole time. And then by the time I did look over and they're like going for two in the win,

I'm like, what is going on? Which was a cool moment for Justin Fields. I just think that you fire them, you're going to get another Zach Taylor. Like, they are not hiring Steve Sarkesian, right? They're not hiring the Mike Vrable or Ben Johnson. They were hiring a guy who they can get for cheap. And sometimes it works, you know? I mean, they had Marvin Lewis for a long time and he was pretty successful.

Hell, Zach Taylor got you to Super Bowl. But I would say that it does seem pretty rare. I could be wrong. Did Marvin Lewis get fired in season? I don't remember. Marvin Lewis also did a really good job over the years of hiring coordinators. For a long time, they had Mike Zimmer as their defensive coordinator. Jay Gruden was their offensive coordinator.

Hugh Jackson was a really good offensive coordinator more. That's part of it. Like, they had dynamic group. A couple years ago, Lou Am and Runo, I'm watching him with the Colts. Looks like it's pretty good. It's amazing how good a coordinator can look when his player is a little bit better. I bet you look like a lot better coach in Alabama or Georgia than you do Mississippi State. I'm sick of my falcons

I have zero emotional attachment to this abortion of a franchise but I still watch every week Sunday at one and I find myself still rooting for them we've all been there brother how does ownership keep screwing up every hire our GM is a joke and gets laughed at

and our coach would be better off uh this is pretty uh descriptive shit-tie So just fire everybody, including the equipment guy. So dysfunctional, it seems so obvious. My real question is this. How is it even possible to be as Jekyll and Hyde as we are? I think any time that you're really up and down, let's face it,

like they do have some talent, it's a reflection of the operation. And, you know, Arthur Blank, just like any owner, when they hire the right people, they look pretty good. When you hire the wrong people, you look pretty bad. And they try. Like, listen, I thought Arthur Smith was a. a good hire. His problem was, and I'm not even saying like Arthur's problem, but like that 10 years problem is they couldn't find a quarterback once they got rid of Matt Ryan. And now it

feels like they're kind of in that mold again. The difference is this time, you're messing with the owner's money. You convinced me to give $90 million to Kirk Cousins, which feels like a scam job. Don't blame Mike McCartney as agent or Kurt for getting that money. But looking back, like that was like his golden parachute. Because based off how he's looked this last year and then yesterday, he should have got like a one year $7 million deal. So props to them for, you know, kind of rolling that into a stupid amount of cash.

So it's like you completely botched our investment into a quarterback that can't play while drafting a guy really high that I think the jury is out. And you hired the biggest coaching staff in the league. So it's like, coaches don't make 40 grand. So, you know, your coordinators are all making millions. Your line coach is probably making a million. Your wide receiver coach and linebacker coach,

these guys are all making 5 to 800K. It's a very, your coaching staffs are very expensive. It's like Jerry Jones said on an interview earlier this year, like I didn't want to get into coaching because I wanted some money. If I would have known what I'm paying coaches nowadays, I probably would have gotten into coaching. And I think these coaches, it's an underrated scam in America.

The amount of money. Obviously, the good ones worth their weight in gold, right? But there are a lot of assistance in this league that, because they're buddies with the head man, he gets them a three-year, $700,000 a year job. He couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper blanket. I mean, the amount of coaching frauds, and college pays a premium too, no different.

At least in college, if you're not a great coach, if you can recruit, you bring value. Like in the NFL, we don't need your recruit. Hell, I don't even care what your opinions are in the draft. I just need you to coach the players. And ask players, especially players that have bounced around the league, there is a gigantic difference of the good ones and the bad ones. I mean, a Grand Canyon wide gap.

So I don't know. You guys sucks. There's not a fix. You can fire everybody. But if they hire the wrong people, you're just going to be back at this point A again. I do think if they miss the playoffs again, which all signs point to them missing. Let's say they go 7 and 10 or 8, 9. I don't see how the owner does just heads roll.

I mean, kind of blow the whole thing up. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty wide. range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how did we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember.

I think it was on a call about what we should call it. We were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, Hey Jonas. And then I, I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. But get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court,

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Keith Gianmanca seemed like a mild-mannered suburban dad. But secretly, he became someone else, a master of disguise, who went on a crime spree. At the time, did it seem like a crazy idea?

It seemed very crazy. But I felt so desperate that I felt it was the quickest, easiest way out. Did you allow yourself to think about how it could go wrong and what that might look like? No. I didn't want to manifest that. I was trying to manifest success. Every family has its secrets.

But what happens when you discuss? that your dad has been living a double life. That is not the look of an innocent man. This is going to change my life and my family dynamic forever because everything that had existed prior in my reality is now untrue. Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is.

getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is, getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the Civil War. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Lee Boulevard. Get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway. If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is,

you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky State House that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit.

How do you represent that? They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I have historically defended the difficulty of being an NFL referee. but how bad does it have to get for the NFL to acknowledge it and what do you think is a realistic response from the leak? Would they address a specific penalty like making pass interference reviewable?

Or, again, or do they make all the penalties challengeable? In the past, I would never have expected them to make penalties reviewable, but it might help curb any allegations of fixing games. That seems like something Goodell would want to get ahead of. this is a sad part and I've been gambling on football for 20 plus years now and I stopped gambling on basketball a long time ago

just I listen I'm not acting like I foresaw this coming but it's just like this is I don't even this sucks I do think this the NFL doesn't really care as long as people are watching and interested and gambling on it and playing fantasy

they are not going to go above and beyond to do anything different than they have done. Now, if something dramatically changes, then they will pivot. They are not going to be proactive on this one, would be my guess. I'd be stunned if we see some dramatic shift with the officials, for whether it's transparency, whether it's beside basic tweaks of reviewing, which they discuss every single year. But if you think Roger cares that you and me are mad when we watch six hours of football,

at the officiating blunders. I mean, last night, Aaron Rogers gets them to jump. No one. My wife's looking at me, he's like, I don't understand what's going on. I'm like, well, Maria. One of Aaron Rogers' great superpowers

is when you jump off sides as a defensive lineman or a lineback or whatever, someone on the line of scrimmage, he immediately snaps it, and then he historically has hit a bunch of big plays. It's like one of, it's going to be written about in his football box.

one day when he's in the Hall of Fame. It's like no one has ever been better at getting free plays than Aaron Rogers. So he knows it. And he was right. And they just didn't call it. And listen, I don't think Pittsburgh wins the game, whether they call that or not, but it's like, that can't be missed. And I think Roger would tell you, well, yeah, I can.

It was missed. And 20 million people watched. At the end of the day, who cares? And I think that would be his response. I don't care. You might care if you had money on the Steelers. Steelers fans care. Packer fans don't, and the average guy hasn't thought about it since the moment happened in the game last night for 10 minutes, and then he moved on with his life.

It's probably true. This is from Austin. Your podcast is awesome. From Detroit here, so my Lions had a bye week today, so I'm watching games around the league, and that's a good feeling. You know, it sucks, you realize if you're a big football fan, right, and you're out a squad, which most people do. You look forward to Sunday to watch your team, and then you watch what else is going on around the league. there is a missing component when your team is on a buy. You're like, am I on football vacation here?

Do I need to do some advanced scouting of our future opponents? Do I need to kind of get some takes ready for as I'm watching these games? It's a unique feeling. But also a good one, especially if you're a Lions fan because you need the health. I'm watching games around the league, and my question for you this week is about the Falcons. They're a roller coaster. Do you think after this year they will let Rahim go? Or is it more of a GM problem?

They pay Kirk Cousins $26 million to be the backup. They lost to Miami by 24 points. And Carolina by 30. Yeah, I mean, I think they're all in trouble. I mean, I think the GM, that situation was not good. I mean, the Cousins thing has lasting impacts because that's an enormous contract. How many guys in the league, I'm talking non-quarterbacks, have signed for more than $90 million guaranteed?

It's a pretty short list, right? It's like Bosa, Parsons, T.J. Watt. It's a short list of the elites. Justin Jefferson, right? It's the best players in the league are a little bit more around what Cousins got. So you paid this much for a quarterback who just can't play. And it's because he's old. I mean, I'm not acting like Cousins wasn't a good player.

Flawed good player. I mean, had some physical limitations. But the guy we're seeing now is an old. old wash guy, which sports, it happens. Right? Your physical limitations, a major injury. Like what Rogers,

the difference between Rogers and Cousins is Rogers is a much better arm. And he can throw the ball at a bunch of different angles to generate power. Cousins is a much more prototypical pocket guy, feet have to be set. And his arm's definitely stronger than it was 10 years ago, but he by no means has a pose. And he has no athleticism. Like, Rogers doesn't have much, but he can still move around a little bit.

And I'm watching Cousins. It just feels like if he was in his peak, you know, seven and a half, eight out of ten, like a really good player, a guy you could win double-dig games with. The version of him now is like a three. I mean, he's just, he's a major liability. Like, I think at the end of this season, like, I think his career's over. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's the type contract to get you fired. Question for the mailbag.

This might be a little niche. But can you weigh in on the Pablo Tori takedown? of Michael Lombardi. I've always enjoyed Mike as a media personality, but level to which Pablo went to embarrass him, plus the enduring dancing on his grave from others was pretty interesting. What's the opinion on the guy in NFL circles? I always really enjoyed Lombardi on the podcast.

He's my style of entertainer. He just lets it fly. Whether some of those are personal vendettas or not, I don't really care. Like, I listened to him for entertainment value, and he was good. I always thought this, I would imagine, because I know, like, I'm doing really well. So I would think his media situation, like, he was financially making a lot of money. For him to go back, like, I texted a buddy in the NFL that actually sent me, he's like,

you've got to listen to this. And this guy's worked with him before. Let me just say that. And so I listened to it all. I didn't even know it existed until he sent me that. and it was I mean it's it's aggressively taking him down now if you work in the NFL long enough

I don't care who you are unless you're like Andy Reid you're gonna create some enemies clearly he has created a lot he hasn't even worked in the league for a decade I also think Belichick like those guys and I think they take pride in this are just known as assholes and they do not care

they do not care they actually kind of embrace it So they pissed a lot of people off over the years. I can't speak to like, you know, part of the Pablo Tori thing was he's taking credit for Super Bowls when he wasn't even on the team. What happened with Bill Walsh in 1985? I mean, I was born in 84. But I do think Pablo, I don't know if Belichick or Lombardi did something to him, but he is spending a lot of energy to go after them. and if I were those two,

I'd be like, I just don't think this guy's going to stop. And when you've pissed a lot of people off and just have a lot of people that don't like you, they're going to be free to share the opinions of stuff that they thought. Now, he shares like, part of the reason Lombardi was fired in New England, right? He went to work for the Patriots while the Browns were still paying him. And this is what Pablo reported, that they fired Michael Lombardi,

Bob Kraft told Bill Belichick he had to get him out of the building because there was a mutiny between Matt Patricia Josh McDaniels, Nick Casario and a bunch of players and Ernie Adams. I don't know if that's true or not. So like you're telling me that players wanted Michael Lombardi out of the building? That seems a little crazy to me. Again, though, I wasn't there. I don't know.

I hope one day someone doesn't do that to me. Middokoff, claim you work for the Eagle, said he had a radio job dude was working at McDonald's he's a fucking liar like Jesus Pablo I'm sorry I find it all kind of entertaining

I just wish Lombardi was not in North Carolina and just podcasting but dude wants to be a team builder again I know a lot of people in the NFL that know them and like him

now these are younger guys like guys under 40 but I just think you know certain people ruffle feathers Some people don't. I do think you could do versions of that, though, on a lot of guys.

Like, I think you could do, you could easily do something like that on Howie Roseman or Pete Carroll. If you've been in a league a long time and you fired a bunch of people over the years, like you're going to have people that I don't like you. Kyle Shanhan, I think that'd be a pretty easy one to do it on. You're going to piss people off. I think it makes more sense as a coach than an executive, but yeah, it is what it is.

Clearly pretty ugly. I mean, if you're a North Carolina administrator or booster, you're like, God, is this ever going to stop? Is this ever going to stop? And the answer doesn't feel like it, no. I'm a Bears fan, and I'm still not sold on Caleb. I'm with you. I don't know if he's going to work in Ben's offense.

I hope he does. but right now he hasn't had a fluid transition. My question is this. If Caleb doesn't start to figure things out by the end of the year, how long will the leash be? Could you see them trading for an older quarterback for some competition in 26 if they do not get better? I would say if they missed the playoffs this year

and his quarterback play continues the way it has been the last couple weeks, his spot is in major jeopardy. Now, who would be the players that they would quote unquote trade for? Right? So, I mean, it has to fit, I don't even know. I don't even know the exercise. Would Ben want to draft a guy? Would they trade Caleb Williams?

Would he have value on the open market? You know, Minnesota, would they trade for him? Clearly, Kevin O'Connell like Caleb Williams a lot. I think a lot of things would be on the table. But I would be stunned if they'd, miss the playoffs and he plays poorly that they just say yeah Caleb Williams are starter in 2026 that's not the way it works fair or not you can agree or disagree with the speed in which we change but that's the that's the pace of things now like that's the

pace of business uh want to hear your take this is a non football question on the LA Angels signing their new manager this is funny because I was at the gym the other day and I look up at the TV and I see the the the the headline, they kind of break, I think it was like SportsCenter, this story. And I had to do a double take. They hired their manager to a one-year contract. What an unsirious franchise. That's a porta-potty Panthers-type move right there.

Also, want to hear your thoughts on the Portland Trailblazers head coach, Jonzi Billups in the gambling scandal. You can't be a serious organization and sign a manager to a one-year contract. Now, I could be wrong on this, but when I was looking at the TV, the GM also is one year remaining. So they wanted to put Kurt Suzuki is the manager, who actually was the A's catcher for a long time. Clearly, pretty high-level dude. I just, I don't think the average fan, I guess like the diehard fan understands this. But I just say a casual sports fan realizes how irrelevant front offices

ownership, and organizations look at the quote-unquote manager now. Like, they are just, if you told me they were paying Kurt Suzuki one year 800 grand, like what the running back coach to Alabama makes, I'd believe you. And one of the stories I saw is Albert Poolels was going to be the next manager of the Angels. Albert Poulos going to sign up to be the manager? Didn't Albert Poulos make, I would guess, Albert Poulos, career earnings. My guess is going to be,

let's go $390 million. I'm a little high. $340 million. Guy made $340 million is going to work for the Angels for not much money in a one-year contract. Not shocked now that we learn Suzuki does it, one-year contract.

Pooholz pulls his name out. You'd have to really, really like baseball to have made $340 million and want to man to manage. an awful team where you have to play like random games against the A's in the middle of July

that 20,000 people were watching. Total. At the game and on TV. One year contract. I talked about the Chauncey Billups thing I think on Thursday. I mentioned this to Colin the other day too. I truly believe that tanking

which Adam Silver has been a shepherd over has allowed it to happen and has not taken aggressive measures to make sure it doesn't happen is the direct reason that more of this stuff has happened. Because if you're not tanking, it is

much harder to manipulate games because people would notice. You can't manipulate games that matter. In the NBA, too much of their product just doesn't matter. And I'm not talking like you're going to have random games especially like in November that don't necessarily matter. I'm talking

like legitimately teams are trying to lose the game as a season goes on. And I think that leads. leads to stuff like this. Now it's like Chauncey Billups, has been in touch with the mob. I'm not quite sure how fascinated like everyone else.

I need more details. Did he owe them money? Well, how can a guy worth $100 million? And listen, it's easy to throw that out there. You know, half of it got taxed. So then you buy a home, you buy some stuff. It's not like you have $100 million in the bank because you spend a lot of it. Even if you, you know,

not everyone's just like investing in the S&S. MP 500. But I've always assumed Johnson's he was a smart guy. But you could go, well, did he get back into coaching because he needed some more money? Or he's a basketball junkie? I think that comes into question. And did he need the money to pay these guys back? Once you get in with these shady characters, they don't exactly, you know, once you're good, you're good.

That's at least based on the movies and documentaries I've seen on the mob. They don't just like, oh, go on your merry way. So I'm fascinated to know the connection, how it started. And, Johnson's a degenerate. Because again, I've said this forever. One reason why I have to pick my spots

with sports gambling, because I don't get a high from $100 bet. Now, it's why I do a lot, you know, play like weekend parlays or a couple like $50 ones, because they'll pay out $5 grand. But like for me to get a high on an individual game, the bet has to be,

I mean, even $1,000 on a game, I'm really into it But if I lose the money It's like whatever But once I get to like And I've done this before Like the true highs I've had Have been like

Three four five thousand dollar games Problem is you can lose a lot of money that way You know I mean you get And I'm cold right now I am cold All the favorites are just dominating So it's money's all relative

If I was a guy like Chauncey Billups Is that 100 grand a game Is that 75 grand a game Is that go playing blackjack 5 grand a hand 10 grand a hand So you just get two different units That if you play and you don't back out

All of a sudden I mean I could lose With the equivalent of what If it's like this guy had lost $500,000 in a weekend Well I could do the equivalent Whatever that that is worth to me With ease But it's fun

Like I enjoy to gamble So it's like I And I don't have an addictive personality So I can kind of pick my spots But I do understand like I don't get a high from a $50 bet unless that $50 bet is on a guy to win the Masters at $50 to 1 and it's going to pay out $2,500, then yeah, I'll pay a little more attention.

A mailback question. Do the Steelers have a defensive coordinator problem? I don't think Terrell Austin is horrible, but he has no ability to make adjustments. The last four or five years, we've had a great talent, we've had great talent, but have had horrible defensive results. Games like the Jets scoring 32 or Flacco being with the Bengals for 10 days and having the best game in a decade or in the past few seasons when they've made Zach Wilson look great.

When can we play base defense and everything goes to plan? It looks good. But I don't get why we run the defense specifically when it isn't working and I never see the adjustments being made that has to be a coaching issue, right? Letting Brian Flores walk and not promoting him to D.C. when we had him was a huge mistake in my opinion. I do think your secondary talent is,

pretty overrated. You know, I mean, I've watched them now healthy or not healthy, kind of have similar results. I forgot about that game to Zach Wilson. It was like his claim to fame in the NFL. He looked like a franchise quarterback. I do think when your pass rush goes away,

your defense sucks. When T.J's dominating, you look sweet. And you could argue that last night, J-Lo hit a couple balls. I only call him J-Lo, because I was in the car and I had on Fox Sports Radio and they play they play first things first

after Coward Show ends and they were calling him Jay Low and I was like I kind of like that but love threw up a couple I don't want to say prayers but the one of Tucker Kraft that was how long was that play 70 yard play

yeah it was a little 50-fitty ball and he threw one across his body to Christian Watson which again they were beautiful outcomes and results the Watson one was a dime but it was, I mean, the DB was right there and probably a couple inches away from tipping it. But yeah, I mean, I don't think, I think your talent,

like back in the day your talent was pretty high end. You had multiple sweet corners, you had sweet linebackers, you had an unreal defensive line and pass rush. You ran a three, four defense then. But, you know, James Harrison, Lamar Woodley, it just was kind of a different animal with Brett Kiesel.

Yeah, it's not really this group. So I'm not trying to, like Terrell Austin is, you know, Belichick in his prime as a scheme guy, I do think just your roster and your talent's a little bit over it. Look at their offense. It's like you go all in on D.K. McCaff. Who's, listen, I'd want D.K. Metcalf on my team. If I had sweet other players, they have no other wide receivers,

they're starting running back, or their most talented running back, is like a small scatback who, again, who doesn't like Jalen Warren? But it's like, how did this happen? It's like, well, we drafted a guy in the third round. It's like, yeah, he can't get on the field. So did you whiff on that one? Did you misidentify the talent? Because that's kind of a disaster in a sport that should be pretty easy to find running backs.

You can't do it. You have all these tight ends. Your offense isn't really explosive despite having D.K. Metcalf. And your defense clearly is just not very good. And you know injuries are going to happen. So, like, what happens when T.J. misses a couple games? You would be screwed. So I think it's easy to blame the coaches.

I think we do that a lot, and I'm guilty of that too. But I'm watching the Steelers are going like, I don't really see that much talent. This isn't exactly the 2011 Steelers. I just think their personnel on defense is like, meh. Like if TJ's on, they look good. What about when he's not? What about when they have no sacks in the game?

If they have no sacks in the game, they're going to get shredded. And that's exactly what happened. Now, they did pressure him a couple times, and he made good plays. But that's the NFL, because all these guys now can move and it's a little more dynamic quarterback play. But I think it's easy to blame Terrell Austin.

Here's the thing. Isn't Mike a defensive guy? I was watching, was it a hard knocks a couple years ago when they did the AFC North in season? Mike ain't sitting in with the offensive guys. He's not sitting with Rogers and Arthur Smith. He's just with the defensive guys. You know?

I remember the clip I was watching like Minka Fitzpatrick walked out of the room and he gave him like a fist pound or maybe walked in the room to say something. He said the defense is his baby. And I bet he hangs out with Terrell Austin and that group the majority of the time. Shouldn't he be there to help out?

I'm all for a CEO head coach but it feels like they're so quick to blame when the coordinators suck. Well like what's your area expertise? And for Mike it's defense and DB play. Should be his baby. And their DB play, it's terrible.

And they blame coordinators a lot, but who's the offensive coordinator? They fired in season. I think it was like a first guy they had fired in season in like 50 years. I wanted to say Freda Kitchens, but it's, I'm complete.

Oh, Matt Canada. Matt Canada. Arthur Smith, I mean, their offensive coordinator's good. I just think their personnel as a team is not great. Guess what? I think their personnel staff

is not as good as it once was. It was really good. And then Colbert retired. I just don't think this is good. I think people around the league would tell you that. The Volume. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers.

I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it.

We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey, Jonas on the IHeart Radio. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking

back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Mark keep coming to him. He's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Crimless, Rory and I welcome a very special guest. When I would do a podcast, I wear my sleep masks. I like where this is going.

So if you guys will indulge me. That's right, the incredibly talented and hilarious Will Ferrell on an episode dedicated to crimes committed by people named Will Ferrell. You're good for 300 crimes? Yeah. We got two. I'm ready to go right up to present day. Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Therapy is fantastic, but once again, it does not have a monopoly on healing.

That's why I create the resources and that's why I create the community because I really just want you to have more access. On the podcast, cultivating her space, Dr. Dom and Terry Lomax create a space where black women can show up fully and be heard. It's tough because we're suppressing our emotions and so many. Many of us are like high achieving individuals. Listen to cultivating her space on the IHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.