The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 3 & Out - Live from the NFL Combine with Bucs GM Jason Licht and NBC’s Matthew Berry

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

John wraps up his time at the combine by discussing his main takeaways from the week. He dives into the similarities between the Chiefs and Ravens organizations and how unsurprising it is that those teams are successful, how the Texans have built themselves a quality team, and the importance of teams being realistic about the players getting drafted. Later, John sits down with the Bucs GM, Jason Licht to discuss the impressive season that Tampa Bay had, the resurrection of Baker Mayfield, and whether the Bucs will be able to re-sign Mike Evans. Lastly, NBC's Matthew Berry joins John to dive into the history of Fantasy Football and how he has made a career of a game that he started playing when he was 17, what is the highest buy-in league that he knows of, and what's the most intense league that he's heard of. 5:36 - Similarities between KC and Baltimore 14:39 - What makes a good head coach 17:47 - Houston is turning into a great organization 24:46 - Teams need to be realistic about draft players 33:37 - Jason Licht Interview 34:39 - How impressive was Baker 39:08 - Mike Evans' future 46:13 - Matthew Berry Interview 48:10 - The History of Fantasy Football Follow John on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube for the latest. Check out Gametime - the fastest growing ticketing app in the US, and the official ticketing app of 3 & Out and GoLow -  for tickets to all of your favorite NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA teams. Concert and comedy show tickets, too. Go to Gametime now to create an account, download the app and use code JOHN for $20 off your first purchase. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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One no-sweet per new customer. Issued as one bonus bet based on amount of initial losing bet. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. See dkng.com slash promos for deposit wagering in eligibility restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. What is happening, everybody, John Middlecoff, Three and Out Podcasts. How are we doing? It is Thursday.

I'm about to head to the airport. Just record a little podcast. Some thoughts just from the last 24, 48 hours from the Combine. Wanted to get just some thoughts onto the pod about rubbed elbows with a lot of different people. It's been a fun week. I met a lot of coaches. I didn't know. I've seen a lot of people I hadn't seen in a while.

a lot of young scouts that listen to the podcast. That's always cool. And I think the plan today is going to be Jason Light, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, general manager, Super Bowl champ, signed Tom Brady, Matthew Berry, fantasy football czar with NBC. He's on NBC Sunday night football coverage. So we will talk to those two guys as well as just some of my thoughts from the combine. You guys know the drill.

If you listen on Collins feed, make sure you subscribe, do three and out feed. All this content is also up on YouTube, so check that out as well. Let's keep the content flowing. We'll have more of these interviews that we recorded coming out next week. And it's been a fun week. It's been a very, very productive week. Might have just got a potential tea time with my fellow Arizona brotherin, Jonathan Gannon, who I ran into at lunch with some Eagles guys.

I guess he's a golfer. So I like that guy. The Eagles guys love them. Yeah, we will talk some football, but before we do, first, what I need to do, where's my smartphone? Grab your smartphone and download a little app. And that app is game time. And they're the official ticketing app of this podcast. I was at dinner last night, and we looked up and the Pacers were playing at home against the Pelicans.

Zion Williamson, it looks like a defensive lineman. I thought, damn, I should have gone to the game. And if I had gone to the game, what I would have done, is I would have gone into the game time app. I would have typed in Pacer game. I would have picked where I wanted to sit, found the price point, and then I would have bought a pair of tickets.

And when I checked out, I would have used the promo code John, J-O-H-N, J-O-H-N, J-O-H-N, promo code John, $20 off. Very, very easy to do. And, yeah, if you want to go to a basketball game, college or pro, any sporting event, concerts. I'm going to try to get out some concerts this spring, maybe this summer.

and enjoy yourself, do it on us. Download the GameTime app, promo code John. Save yourself $20 at checkout. Cannot recommend it enough. Where do I want to start? I obviously spent a lot of time around the Kansas City Chiefs and just different guys from that staff. It turns out, I talked to three or four guys

that either coached or worked for the Ravens. It's crazy the similarities between the successful teams here. Obviously in the NFL, especially in the NFL, especially in the AFC, you're going to need one of the star quarterbacks. Without that, you have no shot. I think Sean Payton's a good coach. Until they figure out the quarterback situation, they're in trouble. The Raiders, no shot, the Patriots.

You don't even discuss them. The Titans, Will Levis. But the two best teams in the AFC this year, I actually think have a lot in common. And, you know, talking to those guys with the Ravens, and I know this with the Chiefs, Like the number one thing that stands out is how serious those fucking places take football. And the number one thing I heard from both operations is obviously it's a good place.

People like working there. It's a successful place. But I kept hearing it from both like this is not a country club. This is not kumbaya 24-7. Like the pads are coming on. This is a very physical operation. I'm not talking about on game day. I'm talking about through the week.

I'm talking about all season long. I'm talking about in the playoffs. Like you buckle your chin strap at practice because you're hitting. And in a league, because of the rules that has changed dramatically, right? You can't hit, like, you watch some of that Patriot dynasty and you see some of the physicality that was in the league.

Some of us call it, like the good old days. I didn't play. I just watched as a young kid. but the league's dramatically different. The Steve Atwater's, the John Lynch's, the Lawrence Taylor's, like those days, it's different. It's still a very, very physical game. And all the teams, when the dust settled, were physical squads. Even Detroit, who is still improving their defensive personnel, like, that's a good example.

Like, that coach is not fucking around. Like, it's not, like, the mentality in these organizations. And obviously one thing the Chiefs and the Ravens really, really have is cohesion. So when we're at the Combine, a lot of these teams, they're not on the same page. Their coach view stuff one way. Their GM view something another way. It's like they got no shot. I mean, seeing some of these brands when you're walking around, right, because everyone's wearing team logo, you go, that team's got no shot, that team's got no shot.

So when I'm talking to guys from the Ravens, with John Harbaugh has been there for a decade and a half, and Andy Reid now who's won three Super Bowls, you're like, how many people are they actually competing against when the season starts? Seriously. Like in the entire league, 10 of 32 teams, 10? 10. Think about that.

So the number one quality I've seen in both organizations is the streamlined ideas of everyone's on the same page with what we want, what we need, going to approach to get and the type guys we want. This isn't, obviously, player acquisition is not an exact science. You're dealing with human beings. But I would say both of them have it pretty dialed as well as you can possibly. You know, you talk to people with the Ravens like, Ozzie Newsom's in these meetings still.

Eric DeCosta has been there forever. The mentality of the coaches they hire. And listen, this is why a lot of people, one thing I've heard constantly from people here is like, charges are coming. they're going to be good. Why? Jim always wins, and who did he hire? A John Harbaugh guy who's been with the Ravens for decades, who I met briefly bald-headed guy rooting for Joel Ortiz.

So when you get a general manager and a head coach who philosophically think about football the same and who have a good relationship and who are good, like you're going to win. And most of these teams just don't have that. They just do not. And listen, when you're good, going to lose coaches. The Ravens just lost Mike McDonald to Seattle.

Well, someone told me last night, they're like, I think this next defensive coordinator is a stud, too. And I ran into Darius Hayward Bay, who I've known from the Bay area, who obviously was a top 10 pick for Al Davis, and then he went on to the Pittsburgh Steelers and kind of became a role player and played on special teams. And I didn't even recognize him. He was wearing a Ravens outfit. He's a pro scout. And he was like, bro, this place is badass. I am just so impressed. It's like any high-level organization. Success is not random. The stories you hear about the philosophical way they operate on a daily basis, and it's not always like, I'm not talking, it's just super serious and screaming constantly. Like, every coach

is a little bit different. But the level of focus on, it's not about money, it's not about the brands, it's about winning. Like talking BSing with Andy a little bit off the podcast, about the Travis moment when he shoved him. And he laughed about it and kind of told Travis don't ever do that to me again, kind of jokingly. But like that's Travis. Like all of his chips were in the middle of the table. Even the Ravens were like,

we didn't quite expect to see that level guy. And he killed him. He had whatever 14 catches against him. And you just get high level players. Some of the stories I heard about Roquan Smith, like God, that's a guy I want in the trenches. I want Roquan Smith on my freaking team.

And these teams just know what they're looking for. And it's why the Ravens are a good example. Over the years, they have let so many guys leave in free agency. And they've always been good. They've just been consistently pretty good. Right? It doesn't mean, and listen, the chiefs are in a situation right now, like they were winning a lot of Super Bowls.

Well, like Peyton had really, really good teams. He only won the one Super Bowl in Indianapolis. But like, no one would argue that those Colts teams weren't beside the Patriots. It's probably the best team in the league over the course of, you know, 12, 10 plus years. And I think you get this probably in any sport, but football is unique because every team has money. Every team has the financial resources now to pay coaches a lot of money. And I think there are a lot of good coaches in the NFL. Like a lot of these head coaches, you meet them.

I was talking to Kevin Stefanski in the room the other day. Like they're really impressive guy. I think Kevin Savansky is a really good coach. And so much of it, you know, in this period of time, for these next couple months, I guess, free agency and then the draft, is dependent on the cohesion of your operation. And the cohesion and the, I would say the ability to locate exactly what you want and have a clear vision.

Because you can't locate what you want if you don't know exactly what you're looking for. And the best teams know exactly what they're looking for. I've seen it forever with the 49ers. It doesn't mean you're not going to miss on players. It doesn't mean you're going to be right on every guy. You're going to. But you're going to hit on more than you miss on. And the guys you hit on are going to have huge impacts.

And this is why this time of year it's so important for the guys to like football, for the guys to be all in. The media always freaks out whenever it comes up. Yeah, we think he's got too many interests. You're like, oh, shut up. Let him be balanced. Balance doesn't win in society at the highest level of ambitious professions. You want to win in Wall Street.

you want to win in the NFL, you want to win in whatever industry that's highly competitive, balance ain't getting it done. It's simply not. And the best players in the history of the NFL, the best coaches in the history of the NFL, the best general managers in the history of the NFL weren't really balanced individuals. You know, they just don't. They're all freaking in. And I just think you talk to these people, you get similar vibes from the successful people.

And I'm not toot my own horn. I'm very, very fortunate that I got hired. by a guy that's going to go down is probably the chubby Bill Walsh in Andy Reed. And when I'm part of the Eagles, I got to know a lot of people in the NFL that went on to become head coaches, that are head coaches, that are general managers, that are just throughout the league. Listen, I did not control that. I would have taken any job when I left Fresno State.

I just wanted to work in the NFL. I didn't know anyone in Philly. I didn't know Andy Reed. And it just kind of, it just happened. And I'm very, very fortunate to have been around these people. people and see what it looks like and know the way they sound. And even the Eagles, like who went through a really, really rough stretch, no team pivots faster.

Like they fucked up, right? But it's hard. They lost two good coordinators, an offensive coordinator who is a star. The way people talk about Shane Steik is like, yeah, he's one of the best play callers. And that's another thing talking to guys last night. That's a good example of, I think a lot of offensive coaches that ultimately become play callers are good with X's nose. Like understand schemes, can get on the board.

Like the difference between Kyle Shanahan and some random offensive coordinator, if they're just talking football, most people and a lot of players might not be able to spot the difference in a meeting on the board. Obviously, there are levels of like Bill Walsh, Andy Reed, or, you know, the Shanahan's. I'm not saying that they're not better than the other guy. But if you were just watching them teach a play,

they both could teach it in a very similar manner. But there is an instinct when it comes to calling plays on offense. And I was talking about it last night over dinner with a bunch of scouting buddies. A lot of people think you're kind of born with it. Like you either have it once you start calling plays, you're natural at it or you're not. It doesn't mean you can't improve, but some guys don't have it. It's why as fans, as us that watch the NFL, you kind of know right away. Like, this guy sucks.

He is not any good. It's not because he doesn't know football. He just has no feel for calling plays. And the Eagles were a good example of that. Shane Steichen is a high-level play caller. Brian Johnson was not. Not good. Now, Kellyn Moore, I'm a Kellynne Moore fan.

There's going to be a lot of pressure on him, but he's proven to be pretty good when he was with the Cowboys. He obviously likes to throw up more than he likes to run it, which the Eagles like. But the Eagles fucked up on their coordinators, and what did they do? They bought Vic Van Joe. And Kellan Moore, who, listen, he's a polarizing individual, but I saw them with the Cowboys.

Won a lot of games. They were in the playoffs, right? So I think that there's so many similarities with these high-level teams, the coaching staff, the general managers, the scouting staff. Because I worked in the NFL. It's full of a lot of ambitious people.

This is not the type of job we're going to meet a lot of lazy people. And the quote-unquote lazy guy relative to most of society is, you know, I would say a pretty hard worker. But the margins here are so thin. and the level of grind that it takes to do this profession is pretty crazy. And it's weird.

You're like, well, you're just watching football. And it's true. That's all you're kind of watching and evaluating football. You're watching hours upon, I'm talking, you know, when you work in the office, you're working 16 to 18 hour days. Now, we can argue if it's overkill, if it's necessary, but it happens. That's the way in the high level college and in the pros, it works. It's funny, you talk to some of these former players that are getting into this.

this profession. Like DHB, I saw Shane Vareen, who a couple years ago I played golf with in the Bay Area. Really good guy. Obviously, it was a really high-level player for the Patriots and got a contract with the Giants. Then he got injured. He's kind of here with a team. And it's just a different world. You know, it's just a world that you work really hard as a player, but that there is a gap there

because you win a game, Monday, Tuesdays off. Like, you're not exactly sure what the coaches are doing. You know they're grinding. You know they're working hard. So it's always cool to see some of these plays. players make the transition. And getting with the right team is everything. And another team that I think is really coming because I saw these two guys,

I don't know either of them, but they were walking ahead of me and you could just tell, like these guys look like they're on the same page. And clearly they have a quarterback, a pass rusher, an offensive tackle, and a corner and a young wide receiver is the Texans. And they're a team to me to just keep a big time eye on. I mean, they got assets. They got a coach who is very highly thought of in the NFL. I think Casarra is pretty damn good at his job.

So I think the Texans are a team that if they do it right and build, and the one thing Casario knows is like, and he values this because he saw it in New England, if you want to beat the Ravens, if you want to beat the Chiefs, it's not just the sexy toy. It's not just, you know, the thing that's going to get everyone excited in the middle of March. It's about getting the right type players. Because you're going to have to go to war with these guys in, early to mid-January.

And the only way to beat them is with those type players. The Patriots, the second iteration of them that won the championships in the 2010s, were not full of Randy Mosses. They were not full of like, even Richard Seymors, right? It was a lot of Julian Edelman's and Devin McCordy's. And these guys were damn good players, Dante Hightower, Matthew Slater. They, a lot like the Ravens and the Chiefs. And I've seen it with the 49ers.

Like, there are guys are not fuck around guys. Fred, and that's to me the thing when you're evaluating these guys at the combine. There are a lot of talented players here. There are a lot of guys that have the physical capabilities to be pro bowlers. But football is about so much more than just how fast you run, how strong you are, how good your hands are. Right. It's every day for six months being able to put your head down and either prepare to play, practice, train, mentally study tape, it's a grind.

And to be a great player, it's about doing it year after year, after year, after year. There is like an excitement in the monotony of just doing it over and over for a lot of these great players. And you hear some of these stories about some of these pregame speeches from these great players. I do believe Ray Lewis hit the nail on the head about, you know, you pay me Monday through Saturday. Sundays are for free. Sunday, even at the highest level, you're still just playing a game. And there's a pure element to that as an athlete that no one's thinking about the money and shit on the field. Even someone was with the Ravens last night told me, like the craziest, you know, Patrick Queen coming into this season was going to be a free agent.

They're like, God, how are we going to keep this guy focused? And they're like, Roquan just kept that dude so locked in. It never even came up. And the dude fucking played his balls off. off all season because that mentality kind of carries over. Brandon Ayuk really wanted a contract last off season. Didn't get it. Came in. It's like, how's he going to act? Acted like he's going to have the best season of his career.

Because when you're part of a successful organization, it kind of breeds on each other. So many people are asking me about the volume. Like, what are you guys doing? How are you guys are having so much success? Like, I don't know. Just high-level people. We have a lot of people on and off camera and the microphone, just pretty dialed in. And it's the process that's taking a couple years to get rolling now, and it's really rolling.

But it happens with like-minded people. I was telling someone the other day, Shannon Sharp, you know, I don't even know how old he is, early 50s. Dude does like four or five lives a week. I mean, he's going live after like fucking Laker games. At night for like two hours. It's like you kind of got to just love the grind. You know, you can't fake this stuff. No matter what you do, selling cars.

whether you play pro sport, whether you're in finance, it'll catch up to you at the highest level against the best, if you're competing against other high-level people. And it's on full display here. Right. And you just, I'm not trying to talk down about certain teams because I respect how hard this is, but you just see some of these teams, you're like, you got no shot, you got no shot.

Now, you're all going to, that's the best part about this industry is everyone's going to make money. Not everyone's going to win. and most teams have no chance. And listen, there is just a basic element of this business. If you don't have a quarterback, it's why going into this season, if the Bears, if Caleb Williams becomes a top 10 player, the Bears are going to be good. No matter who their coach is, no matter who's running the show,

if he's a top 10 quarterback, they're going to be competitive. That's a fact, because that's what happens. Justin Herbert, when he was healthy, like the Chargers were competitive with Brandon Staley. Think about that. So when you have a really, really good quarterback, you could have one of the worst coaches in the league and be okay and compete. Right?

And when you get a good coach with a good young quarterback, you get like D'Amico Ryan's and CJ Stroud. So a lot of people, there are going to be a lot of articles coming out with unnamed scouts and everyone in the NFL is going to free, you know, that covers the NFL, like put your name on it. They can't put their name on it, guys. stop asking for these scouts to put their name on it.

You want their quote. He can't put his name on it. It's not allowed. You get fired. But we want the information. Like you want to know how the hot dogs made and then you complain when you find out what's in it. Like there's going to be character information. Some of these guys aren't great people.

Some of these guys have been in trouble. These aren't just pulled out of people's, you know what, and just displayed for no reason. Because there are issues. Right. Now, we can argue how big the. issue is or not, but like this is reality. This is a business where if you draft it, it's like this guy might go seventh overall, you're talking $25 million. It's a lot of money on the line. This is a billion dollar industry. And something, nothing makes me more angry is when the media

starts complaining about all that stuff during the draft. Because I talk to people over the course of the last couple days that are like, yeah, I don't, I won't argue that Caleb Williams is a really good prospect, but I'd probably bet against him. I just, I don't really see it. Not that he doesn't have the physical capabilities, but they're just kind of turned off by different things. And that's part of the scouting community. You want to have different opinions. Not everyone should be thinking the same thing. People should have different views on different players, you know, and it's why this quarterback talked to a guy last night that does the SEC. He's like, I would not want to have to take Jaden Daniels. I wouldn't. Maybe Jaden Daniels becomes a really good player. Maybe he doesn't.

These are very, very risky situations. A lot of people just, Drake May, they kind of throw their arms up. So when you really start talking to the scouting community, this is where I talk about the difference between the hype machine, which is, I guess, all of us and in the leak. Because the hype machine on guys just grows and grows and grows and grows. Like, I'd say the one thing that's pretty consensus. people think the three wide receivers, the LSU guy, obviously Harrison and Rome and Dunezay, really good players. You're not going to meet many people like, oh, those wide receivers, I don't see it. That's pretty consistent. But I think with the quarterbacks, I think Sean Payton had a quote.

He's like, we feel pretty good in our ability to evaluate, and we also feel pretty good about other team's ability not to evaluate, and that's a point of difference. I might have screwed up the quote a little bit, but, and he's right. A lot of people saw Patrick Mahomes and didn't see that good of a player. Right? And a couple teams did. The Chiefs loved him. John Payton loved him. Just like several years ago.

You know who loved Josh Allen? Obviously the bills did. They traded up to get him. John Snyder. John Snyder wanted to get rid of Russell Wilson in whatever year that was 18 and draft Josh Allen. There were a lot of people in the NFL like, he sucks. He's never going to play.

He's awful. So it's all in the eye of the beholder. and you're going to be right, you're going to be wrong. Now, when it comes to the quarterback, you know, when it comes to the Bears taking Caleb, which I think everyone believes is 100% going to happen, whoever Washington ends up taking and then how those other quarterbacks go from then on out, not all those guys are going to be good. And when you miss on a quarterback, most times you don't just kind of run into Brock Purdy.

It usually kind of derails you. Or even the, look, the Jets thought they had a lifeline. Right? They thought they traded for Aaron Rogers. and then five plays into the season, he tears his Achilles. So even when you know you screw up and you make a decision, like there's no sure things, really in life, but definitely in football, because there's no sport that quite has the injury variance.

At any moment, it can happen to any player, whether it be a physical interaction, like a tackle, or just be a non-contact injury. I mean, hell, we saw one of the Niners, better defensive players, tear his Achilles running out to the huddle. I asked Andy Reid, I'm like, have you ever seen that? And he's like, yeah, I think, he thought it happened to one of his guys in like his first season in Philly, in a similar situation.

And it might have been in a practice or it might have been in like a preseason game where a guy was running out. He just went down and he's out for the year. I mean, it just happens like no one fucking touched him. Think about that. It could happen to any guy. You're all pro player or just like your random special teamer. And that's what makes this league, I think, so intriguing is there are just so many variables that there really are.

And yeah. And like I said, I'm very, very, I'm not that religious of a guy. So when I say this, I do believe, you know, I'm very blessed in the sense that my experience in Philadelphia allowed me to be able to meet so many people in the NFL that I, would not have been able to meet if I would have been in another team. Starting with the head coach and the general manager, who, Howie won a Super Bowl with Doug Peterson, Andy's obviously won three, but the amount of other people,

the amount of people that even though I didn't work for, that have come through there and were connected, I didn't work with Jason Light, but I know him through a lot of mutual people, some guys that I worked with with the Philly, because he worked in Philly before I got there, and now work with him, and that there is just such a connection that I,

I, this is why whenever I try to give people advice, I made a combined $120,000, I think, in my three years working in the NFL, like 25, 45, and 55 or something. And the money was completely irrelevant. The experiences and the ability of the people I know and able to text for this job, I would have paid that amount of money now looking back. and it never even crossed my mind. I wasn't making that. I didn't even care. It didn't matter. Now, I didn't have a family or anything,

but like that experience and those people that I was lucky enough to work around and get to know and call friends and be able to communicate with, phone, text, changed my life. It really did because I can come to a combine. Like, I don't work in the NFL anymore. I haven't worked in the NFL a long time. I just know a lot of people from my short experience.

through that. And then even through this, like I'm walking around, meet Kevin Stefanski, a couple guys on the Eagles, know him really well. So I dropped their name. We start bullshit for like five minutes.

It's got to introduce to Jonathan Gannon. I'm like, hey, Jonathan, let's play some golf. I'd love to. I guess he's a big golfer. Lives probably 15, 20 minutes away from me. Because the guys with the Eagles

love Jonathan Gannon. I mean, they love him. I would say every single guy I know on that staff, the way they speak about Jonathan Gannon, it just couldn't get any higher. And I could see, I saw him interacting with one of the guys I just had lunch with.

All these guys are really, really impressive. And the league is clearly full of young, like guys in their 40s being head coaches. You understand it. Like, these is a pretty high-level group. He did a pretty good job at the end of the year. So, had a really good time. There's nothing quite like this event. I said it, I think I tweeted it out a couple days ago.

Everyone's in a good mood. Whether you're Jonathan Gannon and your draft and fourth, or whether you're Andy Reed and you just won the Super Bowl, whether you work with the Steelers and you got knocked out in the first round or Sean McDermott with the bills. Everyone is just spirits are high. People are feeling good.

It's a very, very loose environment. This is, there's just nothing quite like it. There really isn't. Everyone's interacting. You have the media, reporters, the coaches, the GM, they're all staying at the same hotels. Everyone's around each other.

You just turn around. there's just people talking with each other. There's no, I would say it's not a very secretive, people are just, you can just walk by if you're just kind of listening, you're like, I don't know what that guy's talking about? What's Mike McDaniel talking to that dude about? You just kind of hear things. It's crazy. It really is.

And if you love football, like I love football, it's, there's like, there's kind of a fan element to it. It's like, goddamn, this is pretty sweet. But in a weird way, you're kind of numb to it. But I try not to be too numb because I think it's, uh, It's pretty special, so I'm glad we got to come here. I'm glad I just, this was a no-brainer for me. I realized probably a month ago I got to come.

Definitely glad I did. And we'll hit the home stretch here as we get ready for free agency. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong

Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's dive into current Tampa Bay Buccaneers General Manager, fresh off a great season, won a playoff game and Super Bowl champion with Tom Brady Jason Light

Here from the Combine And I happen to run into A Super Bowl champion And a playoff winner this year, hell of a season Idiots like me thought they were not going to be very good And they shut us up quick When the seat before the season though As the season went on

GM of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jason Light, what's going on? Thanks for having me. How you doing? Doing pretty good. Doing pretty good. What's this time of year like you. It's busy. Yeah. A lot of people are busy. A lot of people are busy. Signing our own free agents, getting ready for free agency, getting ready for the draft. It's our busy time.

You were telling me before we hopped on that you've been to, one was canceled, so if we count that one, 30 combines, you've been a GM now 10 years. Do you feel when you come to these, are you pretty comfortable now, what has to happen, or is it like the meetings? You have obviously your quarterback, a wide receiver. I mean, it's a pretty big name guys, potential franchise tag, a lot of moving parts. Does it change year to year, or does it always kind of feel the same coming to combine? Well, the things you have to accomplish change year to year, but it's all kind of the same. It's, you know, everything kind of comes to a head at once here, and then we leave and then actually do the free agency or signing our players,

and then still get ready for the draft, and it's just a, it's a cyclical industry. Let's talk about this season. Obviously, the Baker-Mayfield situation, was pretty cool, right? He last year got his chance in L.A., won that game on a Thursday night, was a pretty big eye-opener. And for you guys, not just his play, but I think the maturity, the leadership was from the outside. I mean, you were living it seemed like a pretty awesome, I don't even want to call career resurrection, but just stamping like, guys, I can play a little bit in this league. It was a little bit for him and for the, you know, he was the perfect quarterback for us. Not easy to replace Tom. Not easy to replace. It's irreplaceable.

you're not going to get Tom Brady. But it was for the situation we were in. He was the perfect quarterback for us. We were the perfect team for him. Our team had a chip on its shoulder. We still had a lot of good players on it, and everybody was counting us out, including you. I wasn't alone.

And no, you were not alone. And we have a quarterback that has a big chip on his shoulder that wants to prove everybody. So it was a perfect marriage. And we hope it continues. You know, you've drafted a lot of impact. players, a ton of different positions. But that position, you know, if Baker hadn't played as well, you would have been in trouble, right? So you can have 15 Vita Vezas and Tristan Worf's, but if you,

if you have a problem at that position, were you confident going into the season? I mean, there was a quarterback competition, right, in training camp, or is it one of those things were you pleasantly surprised how well? Because obviously he played well before in his career was the number one overall pick, so it's not like an out-of-nowhere situation. Right. There was a high ceiling there. No, I was, it was, it was, it was, we knew that he had it in him. So, but I'll say that I was pleasantly surprised with the competition that showed what Kyle was.

And Kyle actually Trask played very, very well in preseason. And he showed us some things that were, reminded us why we took him in the second round. So I'm not, who knows what the season, how the season would have went with Kyle. I'm glad it worked out the way. did because we want Baker to be our quarterback moving forward. But Kyle did some things that really, it was, that was one of the most pleasant things that happened during the preseason I felt. Well, let's talk about that. Obviously, you're famous for signing Tom Brady. That one kind of worked out. Is this going to be a complicated? I mean, quarterback deals typically are. You know,

he was relatively cheap for not civilian standards, but for quarterback standards last year. GM standards. This situation now, how do you approach it, constant dialogue? I mean, he's been on your team for a while now so you know him and his agent but does it start from scratch now how does that work out from your perspective we've already had some conversations so I'm sure we'll have to continue to have conversations um and try to find middle ground if we can um you know I'm confident that we'll continue to work on it so um feel good what makes me feel good is I know he wants to be a buck I know we want him to be a buck so usually there's somewhere something can be worked out in there you know one thing I always find fascinating is some GMs now have that number back

background or law background, when you have a scouting background, how do you learn to negotiate? Right? Because you become the, I guess you do a little bit when you're like the second in command, you deal with it. But when you're the boss, I mean, you're the decision maker. How do you learn when it's like too much hang up or, you know, kind of to play it and when to kind of play all your cards? Is that a learned experience? It is, but, you know, I have fantastic people working for me. You're a famous cap guy who's been with you for a while. Mike Greenberg. I'm Jackie Davidson. and they do a fantastic job.

So they do most of the groundwork, most of the leg work. They ask me to come in at the end. If it's, you know, we have to, I don't want to say I'm the closer, but you're the GM. So just having those, they do most of the work when it comes to those things. So when it comes to, you know, all the paragraph five and the different numbers, you're very dependent on that guy, like you are here at the Combine for Medical, right? You can't say, hey, this is a degenerate knee. You are on the doctor.

I know just enough to be dangerous, but I have. But, you know, I rely on them. Just like I rely on John Spitech and Mike Beal and Rob McCartney in my scouting department to do a great job, which they have. So it's fair to say when you're negotiating some of this information, you know, it's based on the tape and based on your gut feel, but also when it comes to the numbers, it's based on the rest of the league. I mean, it's a complicated process.

It's a complicated process coming up with the market, what the market is. Yeah. So let's talk about your wide receiver, who was. incredible this year. He's one of, I mean, honestly, one of the great players of his generation. Mike Evans, a lot of different reports flying out there. What are your thoughts on Mike and where it stands right now? We've been in good faith negotiations for a while now, and we'll continue to do that this week and next week, and I'm hoping just like our fan base that he stays with us, and, you know, I know it's got to be a good deal for both ends. So, you know, he's a beloved player,

and he's one of the best all time. You know, that run you guys went on with Tom, it kind of showed this year the culture of those guys know how to win and you guys got in some tough games and just obviously the playoff game i mean kind of kicked some serious ass let's let's call it what it is but those guys had been through the ringer right and everyone watching them for three years playing in the super bowl playing in big playoff games how much do you think that helped this year with your core guys of just feeling that pressure it helped a lot we've talked about this in the past the brady effect and i even talked about it when we signed tom originally that this is not just something here for the next three years. This is something that's going to carry on with these

young players for a long time. He shows us, he's showing them what it takes to win. And we still see that, yeah. Is there anything you take away? Obviously, you had been around Tom when you were younger with the Patriots, but seeing him, you know, 42, 43, 44 years old, that you were just like, I can't believe this. Maybe not even a throw or anything, but just something intangible. Just how hard he works. It just, it's just how hard. how focused he is. And, you know, everybody talks about it, but when you see it firsthand, I mean, this guy is just all, when he was playing, it's just all about getting any advantage he can on his opponent.

So, yeah. When you guys, this year you lose a coordinator to become a head coach, which is a good thing. I mean, that's what you want as an organization. How then involved are you when it comes to replacing the offensive coordinator, working with Todd Bowles? You guys have a list. You keep lists, you know, on coaches like that to help him out because he's so, you know, coach so week to week in the NFL season. Yeah, he keeps lists.

I keep lists with my group. And we kind of compare him. We brought several people in. I spent time with him. Todd spent the majority of the time with him, but I would spend an hour, hour and a half with him as well. And then Todd would just, he and I would discuss and he would kind of rely on me to help him through the process, but I want him to make the hire. So, but just one thing I love about Todd is he, he likes to work together and have that,

you know, that union with the GM. You hire Liam Cohen, who when I think of him, I think of a Shanahan offensive guy. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Is that something you were specifically looking for, the McVeigh, Shanahan, kind of some of those offensive concepts, or was, you go into a cut pretty wide open? It wasn't specific, but, you know, it helps because that's the system that we had. So it's going to make it a little bit easier in the process of changing coaches to have the same terminology and similar terminology for all of our players.

I don't care what offense you run. You need good players. But why do you think that offense is so player friendly? That's a good question. I think one of the things is it takes a lot of the tough decisions away from the quarterback. So you're not depending on the quarterback. to make a lot of those tough decisions. It's quarterback friendly.

Yeah. And defensively, now you've worked with Bowls for a while. You've got to have a pretty good feel in your scouting staff, specifically what he likes on defense. We know he likes the blitz. So guys that can run, is that fair to say? Guys that can run, but I mean, he makes it easy in one regard. He just likes good players.

I mean, normally he would like big players on the front, but, you know, he was a big fan of Coligia. So he likes good players, and that's one of the things that jumped out. when we're talking to Liam is players overplays. So that's a big philosophy of his. So, you know, he's going to change things to adapt to the players. It's not about the scheme. We'll get you out here on this. Obviously, you know, you have Bruce, who, you know, an all-time personality and a great coach. So whenever you have a transition to Todd, even when you know a guy,

when he becomes a head coach, that relationship's different for you. Explain how that has gone and how that has grown over the course of your guys working together in this capacity. Yeah, it's, it's a different, like you said, it's a different relationship. Todd and I have known each other for a long time, but then when you have to talk to him every day, I mean, I may, he may have liked me then, but now it's like, oh, he's hitting me up with this again, again, no. But over time, he and I have grown a lot closer and we can read each other's minds now, finish these other sentences, that whole thing. It's, we just, we just have a, we have a great, we have a great working relationship.

Okay, I want to end on this, actually, because obviously Bruce, I'm sure you felt comfortable to get into an argument, over a player or whatever. It's easy personality to do that with. Todd's personality is a little bit different from Bruce's, at least on the aisle. I've been around when I was in Philly. Do you get more comfortable when you have disagreement? I would imagine usually on players.

You know, it's like, do we hate each other now? But that's just healthy in the business. It's part of just you're not always going to see eye to eye. Yeah, no, I find that with Todd, he and I have these healthy arguments and we do them at night and then the next day when we see each other, then we'll see how each other feel. Sometimes I'll change, sometimes he'll change.

and say you're right. So both, it's about 50-50. Who's the number one player in your draft board? Nice try. Take it easy, Jason, thanks, man. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast.

Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, here with, I would say one of the founding fathers, maybe that's too bold, of at least the popularity of fantasy football, like many people, I'm sure my age and younger, I've listened to you for a long time with Bill. Yeah. And the explosion of fantasy football, Matthew Berry, he's now part of Sunday night football. You can see him on television.

It just happens to be the biggest television show in America. Matthew Barry, how you doing? I'm good. Life's great, man. I'm at the NFL Combine, talking to people, having friends. It's great. When did you, how long you've been playing fantasy football? Since I was 17 years old.

I've been playing fantasy since I was 14, but I started in fantasy baseball. so I think 17 or 18, so over three decades. From a gambling standpoint, obviously we bet football in like any other sport. Same thing with fantasy. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Why do you think fantasy football is so big? I think it's partial because the NFL is so big.

Like I think there's a couple of reasons why, right? So first off, the NFL is the most popular sport. So it stands to reason that the fantasy version of that is also the most popular. It's easy to play. It's everything that you want in a game, which is that it's easy to play and understand it's hard to master, right? So you get addicted to it. You get really engaged with it. The fact that you're playing one game a week in essence, you know, you're not using a ton of players. It's a fairly simple, you know, I have eight-year-olds that play and I have 80-year-olds that play.

And anything that appeals to that wide a demographic, you know, is great, obviously. And it's fun. You know what I mean? Like at the end of the day, it's just, it's fun. So that's, I feel like you put all your chips in the middle of the table on fantasy a long, long time ago. Was that just a gut feeling? Could you feel it through the people you were playing with or the larger landscape? How'd you know? Just, good question. I'm not a weird guy.

And by that I mean, so the stuff that I like, I like Springsteen, I like pizza. I like, you know, like going to Vegas. I like superhero movies. Like the stuff that I like is fairly mainstream, right? You know, I don't like weird stuff or non-mainstream. stuff is probably a better way to say it. And so, and I really like fantasy football. And so he sort of felt like, well, I like all this other stuff that's incredibly mainstream and super popular, right? And I also like this thing. And so if this thing can just get more popular, just get more exposure, have more

people understand that it's, it's not this nerdy thing, it's not this niche thing, but it's actually it's a really fun extension of watching the NFL and it gives you a rooting interest in games that you wouldn't care about, right? I'm a commander's fan. I'll watch every washing game until the end of time, but if I don't, but I'll also watch every other NFL game because I have a fantasy player in it, right? So it enhances your enjoyment of the NFL if you enjoy the NFL. It gives you a rooting interest in games you otherwise might not care about. And so I just sort of felt like if I have this opportunity, if I have this desire and this enjoyment of this thing, then I think a lot of other people will once they're exposed to it. So we just got to expose more people to it.

I get asked a lot just career advice, you know, regardless of. of the industry and I'm a big feel of like your gut and you know and your soul. And was there a moment in your career when you realize this is really going to be something? Because you were at ESPN for a long time. I was at ESPN for a long time. And there's definitely different steps along the way where I certainly like did I expect it to explode. You know, when I was starting out, did I expect it to explode the way it did? Did I expect that I would one day be on football night in America on the, you know,

the pregame show for the biggest game of the week, you know, the most popular show in the ratings? No, obviously. But I did. Again, I sort of thought how, again, if this thing, if people were exposed to it, it's fun. It's fun and easy to play. And the more people are exposed to it, the more it's going to take off. I mean, there's moments in time, right? Like, just, I always sort of, you track my, like, I always track it by party talk.

And this will make sense in a second, right? When I started out, I would go to a party. What do you do for a living? Well, do you ever heard of fantasy football? what's that? Well, it's this game, blah, blah, and here's how you play it, and sort of do that. Had to be interesting combo in like the early 2000s. Yeah, yeah, like people, and then they'd be like,

what do you do for a living? A fantasy football. Oh, yeah, like my brother plays that. Oh, yeah, I got it. There's one guy in the office that's into it, you know, it was that. And now it's like, and then it became like, oh, fantasy football. Oh, can you, let me look at this team. Hey, I just got to trade. And now it's like, hey, Matthew, like they recognize me and they come up to me. and then they're like, hey, can you help me?

You got a sleeper for me? Like, hey, who did I start my flex on Sunday? So it's just sort of like continue to kind of progress. When did you get hired to ESPN? 2007. Would you say they were pushing it back then? No, they weren't. That was part of the reason I was hired.

You know, they came to me and they said, I'd been doing some work off and on for the company. Like I'd been doing like, you know, little get spots here and there. But they came to me and they said, in 2007, they said, hey, we've been talking internally. we think fantasy football has the potential to be big enough. We think it's, you know, it's got this potential. And we're looking for a Mel Kuiper of fantasy football.

We've been talking internally. We need to find a Mel Kuiper for fantasy football to help us grow this particular, you know, this interest stream. And we like the work you do. So we'd like to buy your website, move you to Connecticut, and make you the guy. So that was 2007. And part of what I was hired to do was to grow the game, specifically ESPN's fantasy game, but by ESPN being the worldwide leader in sports,

and they certainly were in 2007, that was my mandate, was to sort of like, if ESPN grew the game, then we sort of felt like it would kind of grow globally. And that the other thing is that there was a trickle-down effect that, like, at ESPN, it's just like, listen, if you're a fan of sports, you have to watch ESPN at some point.

You have to engage with ESPN. Like, there's just no avoiding it, right? Yeah. Specifically to the NFL, they have. Monday Night Football, right? If you're going to be a fan of the NFL, you have to watch Monday Night Football and you can only watch it on ESPN. So we felt like people playing fantasy, even if they didn't play with ESPN, but just people playing fantasy care more about the NFL. There have been studies, right? That the average football fan watches about three

hours a week, the average fantasy player watches over six hours a week, right? More than twice. They're the avids of the avids. And so if we could get somebody playing fantasy football, even if it wasn't on ESPN platforms, if they played Yahoo somewhere else, right? NFL.coms, you know, what have you. Double their time watching. Well, right. They're more engaged in sports. It just means that basically if they were playing fantasy football, wherever they played it, they'd be more engaged in sports.

And if they were more engaged in sports, ultimately, that would be good for ESPN, because they would hopefully come to read my column or listen to my podcast or just they'd watch Monday Night Football, even if they didn't have, even if they weren't a fan of the two teams playing, because they're hoping for a Monday Night Miracle, which I always put out there, you know, that kind of thing. Um, that was sort of the idea, um, of, uh, of promoting that. So yeah, so part of my job, I think the thing that I can, I can legitimately take the most credit for is the growth of fantasy

football. The, the, the, the making it popular in America. I've won awards for that. Well, I think about you when you say fantasy football. I'm not just saying that because you're sitting here. Well, I appreciate that. But that's the thing that that comes up the most. Like I, I literally like, and I'm not trying to brag about the award, but it's just so funny. The American Marketing Association. The American Marketing Association, and I think it was in 2013, named me the marketer of the year because of my help and the growth of fantasy football. Like, it's kind of crazy, right? I mean, somewhat. Like, you know, I don't know that I would say that, but I just, like, literally, this marketing organization, like, honors people for, like, you know, incredible marketing,

and they were, like, the way you marketed fantasy football and the way you helped grow, the popularity of it made it a national thing, you know, they gave me this award. And so, you know, I think that's, you know, I'm not trying to brag on myself, but that is something that I think I can legitimately sort of lay claim to. And that's the thing that comes up the most is that I didn't invent fantasy football, but I believe I made it popular. I mean, a lot of people did, but like I was part of that stream. Is it fair to say, obviously, when you get really big at ESPN or starting off in 07,

one thing that's dramatically changed over that period of time is the power of the internet? for sure. Game changer for fantasy. A thousand percent because it all of a sudden now now you could play it in this, right? Now you could play it on your phone. Stats are kept more, it's easier to do research. It's easier to set your lineup. It's easier to get, you know, live scoring updates, everything like that.

So just technology has been a great boon to the game and it lowered the barrier entry. Again, like back when I was doing it, you had to do stats by hand. You had to sort of nerd out and really like go through the box scores at them all up. You're doing stats by hand. It's painstaking. and the only people that are really going to do that, the hardcore, the hardcores. But now, like, again, like, you know, my kids have been playing since they were, like, eight

because they all know how to use an app. They all know how to use a phone. They kind of open up an app and they're just like, oh, boop, boop. This guy's projected for more points than that guy. Great, you know, that kind of thing. I'm a big gambler, and I've heard you and Bill talk about this, there are some underground fantasy leagues that have massive buy-ins, right? Some former athletes, just rich people.

Are you part of any of those? and can you just give me, what's the biggest one you've ever heard of, a buy-in? I mean, there's one I've heard of that's a bunch of guys that either own or run casinos. That's like it's a $100,000 buy-in. I've heard rumors of the $100,000 buy-in won that one, I know for a fact. Keeper League? Huh? Keeper League?

Not a keeper league. It starts fresh every year. It starts fresh every year. But I've heard rumors of ones that, like, you know, a million-dollar buy-ins and that kind of stuff. I couldn't prove it. Talk about being dialed in on a weekly basis. Holy shit. But honestly, it's all still sort of the same.

Like, if you're willing to put a million dollars down in a fantasy league, you can afford to lose it. You know what I mean? It's the same as somebody else saying, you know, I'm in a $10 league or I'm $100 league. It's all relative, right? Guy making $60 grand doing a $500 league. It's a pretty big deal.

Right, 1,000%, right? It's the same thing. But, you know, somebody who's worth $100 million, I'll put in $100, I'll put in $100, somebody that's worth $500 million, I'll put in a million dollars. They don't care. I'd imagine you get people all over the sun

hitting you up for advice, right? Especially the big money guys want to know. Does that, I mean, how does that go? Yeah, I mean, a little more pressure, I suppose. But yeah, I'm always happy to help out. The fact of the matter is that I have found the majority of the people that I find want to win not for the money reasons.

So, like, I've talked about this. Like, you know, Jay-Z plays fantasy football, and I'm in a, you know, I know all the guys in that league. I'm not in that league. LeBron? LeBron's not in that league. No. It's a famous gut league. Guts league.

Chris Paul, the only other athlete or celebrity in that league is Chris Paul. But Jesse Hitzler, who's a co-owner of the Atlanta Hawks. He's in that league. Steve Stout, who, you know, runs translation. Mike Kaiser of the President Atlantic Records, Juan Perez, who runs Rock Nation sports. Kevin Liles, Irv Gotti, you know, Murdering, Irv Gotti, the legend, on and on, the people in that league. And so the, but, you know, so I've seen that league, all those guys. And I won't say what the entry fee is for that league, but it's not cheap.

Probably not $10. It's not $10. I'll leave it at that. But in all the years, and I've gone to that draft for, I think, 11 years, 12 years now, something like that. They all want to win desperately. Oh, you go to the draft? I go to the draft every year and sort of help out and give it, you know, I kind of do a play-by-play of the picks and people are like, good pick, bad pick,

and I sort of like talk about whether I liked it or not. That's cool. I give all the guys crap or they give it back to me and it's a great time. You charge a fee for that? I do not. I do not. I'm honored to be there. But the reason I bring that up is, is my point is, is like, it's not an insignificant amount of money.

And I've never in 12 years ever heard anyone bring up the money. They all desperately want to win, but it's not about, it's about bragging rights because they're all, that group is all, they're all good friends. They've known each other for years and years and years and years. And so it's all bragging rights. And that's what I've found for the most part is very few people that are, you know, play fantasy for the money. I mean, there are pay for play, there are play for pay leagues where the goal is to try to win money. But leagues that are comprised of friends, people care much, regardless of how much the entry fee is. people care much more about winning than they do, you know, whatever the grand prize at the end.

Like same thing. Like, you know, like all the Avengers are in a league. You know, Chris Pratt, Chris Evans, you know, Anthony Mackey, Jeremy Renner, on and on and on, right? In this league. And they talk trash nonstop. Again, not a cheap league to be in. but one that is really intense because they all want to beat each other. So again, it's less about the money, especially weirdly as for rich people.

It's not about the money. It's about, you know, trash talk and beating your friends. How dialed in are you to just nonstop storylines during OTAs and training camp? Is that when you, I mean, you're just following every team very closely? Yeah, constantly. I mean, it's one of the reasons I'm here at the Combine, right? It's for what I do for a living, until the prospects are on a team, you can't really assess that fantasy value, right?

You know what I mean? Like, we know Marvin Harrison's going to be good, but Marvin Harrison, Marvin Harrison Jr. on the Patriots is a different fantasy prospect than Marvin Harrison Jr. on the Cardinals. With Kyler. Yeah. Right.

You know, so, again, you kind of wait to see where they're going to land and where they, you know, what their role is going to be, right? So for me, what I do here at the Combine is it's gathering intel, right? It's networking. It's getting sources. It's hearing this is what we're thinking about doing. This is what we're planning on doing. This is how we're talking with this player, that player, that player, that player.

that kind of thing. And so, um, uh, you know, it's hard though, right? Like,

did you like C.J? I mean, how would, no one knew they was going to do that. I like C.J. but if I, I, I would be lying if I said I thought he was going to have the season he's going to have.

I like tank Dell. Tank Dell was legitimately a sleeper for me. But I'd be lying if I said I thought C.J. Stroud would have the kind of fantasy season he did. Absolutely not. And that's the thing with fantasy football, right? Like Jordan Love unknown. Yeah.

And he ends up throwing what 30 plus touchdowns or pretty? Pretty little more known, but still like coming on. coming off an injury? It's always hard to tell. I mean, I did have Jordan Love as a sleeper. I thought he'd be better than, you know, because he'd shown flashes and everything like that.

Offensive coach. Yeah, offense coach, he uses his legs a little bit. Thought they had better receivers than they were giving credit for. But right. There's a little bit of the unknown there. But yes, to your, the point is, is like, starting now, through, you know, through free agency, through the draft, through rookie OTAs,

like, you know, like all the way up until, kickoff. Fantasy value constantly changes. You're trying to get notes and, you know, that kind of thing. Trying to get nuggets and news and information and try to sift through what's real and what's baloney. So like a way too early look ahead. You know, guys like, let's use Jordan Love and Brock Purdy. Sure. We know their cast of characters coming back. They're both going to have the same coach. Would you view their season last year going to be any different this year? I think both will improve upon that. I think both are top 12 fantasy quarterbacks next year. For sure. Running backs?

I mean, some of them are free agents, but like some of the guy, Jamar Gibbs, is he a guy that you just? Yeah, I mean, the question is whether they, right, I mean, I think I'll have Jimere Gibbs ranked ahead of Dave Montgomery. They want to be a run first team. It's one of the best offensive lines in football. You don't expect any of that, but, you know, Jermere Gibbs is going to be one of the first, you know, 15 running backs drafted, you know, this year and probably higher because there's going to be a lot of hype on him. McCaffrey? McCaffrey is my number one overall. yeah, for sure. Nothing's going to change. No. Running back's making nervous, though, with injuries and...

Yeah, a little bit, but, you know what? Like, yes, running backs make you nervous, but they all do. Every position does. I mean, what was it? Something like, 66 different quarterbacks took a snap this year. Crazy. Something like, I mean, like, quarterback used to be the same. Like, no one, quarterbacks never get injured, you know, the league protects them. You know, they're usually mobile.

They have six different quarterbacks, right? Like, so, you know, and then there were a lot of wide receiver injuries as well. I mean, you know, obviously Justin Jefferson, he got band. banged up. Jamar Chase got banged up. T. Higgins got banged up. Like on and on. Debo. Debo. Mike Williams. You know what I mean? Like, it's a

violent sport. Let's end on your squad. Obviously, they got a new coach. They got a new GM. They have offensive pieces. And it looks like they're going to take quarterback. Do you know who you want? You know, I mean, I think the easy answer is Caleb Williams because of Cliff Kingsbury. But

I want whoever I honestly, you have a gut feeling who they're going to take? assuming he's going to go one, Caleb. I feel like Drake May, just because I feel like he's probably a better fit at this stage for what Cliff Kingsbury likes to run offensively versus Jane Daniels, who's kind of like this different kind of quarterback. But what I would say is that I almost think you can't screw it up.

It feels like all three. I'm like, you know, again, not cut to, you know, cut to three years from now and one of them is Josh Rosen. But like, you know, the fact of the matter is, I feel like all three of them are sort of can't miss, and like they're all going to be good. I think it's safe to say whoever they take it to, given the personnel you guys have on offense and Cliff, probably going to have a pretty good rookie year, wouldn't you imagine? I would think so too, you know, and it's interesting, right? Because without knowing team, you'd sort of say, well, Jane Daniels is going to be the most fantasy relevant because of the rushing.

But then you point back to last year, okay, if Anthony Richard did stay healthy all year long, who ends up with more fantasy points, Richardson or C.J. Stroud. It'd have been close. You might have 10 rushing touchdowns. CJ, right. I mean, Richardson, but Richardson was on his way to being a fantasy superstar, but then Stroud just has a monster year, right? Stroud was a fantasy superstar.

And so you sort of never know, right? But I think all three will be very successful. And I think, yes, they need to improve their offensive line. But Kingsbury is an offensive-minded coach, right? and, you know, with McLaurin, with Dotson, with Curtis Samuel, with a strong run game, I think whoever that quarterback is, in a game that'll, you know, and on a team that they'll probably be throwing a decent amount because they'll be down, yeah, it should be a, you know, potential fantasy option.

Sam Howell this year, Sam Howell, for the longest time, was a top 10 fantasy quarterback. He had moments where he looked pretty good. Yeah, I agree. I think he got a raw deal a little bit. He was running for his life. Awful offensive line, and the defense was so bad he was constantly a negative game, He never got the opportunity to just like, hey, can we just run a balanced offense? Yeah.

I read you because I go to Rotor World a lot. Sure. Is that the easiest place to find you for people that want? Rotorold.com, you bet. I love Rotterworld. When I worked in the NFL, we used to use Rotor World, which was Twitter before Twitter, to get the injuries, to find out the stories. I still use it all the time and I see your stuff there.

Matthew, I appreciate it. Continued success. Thank you, John. Thank you. The Volume. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite, unhumored me with Robert Smigel and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an

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