The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 3 & Out - Mike Mayock joins the pod

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

John is joined by the former GM of the Oakland/Las Vegas Raiders, Mike Mayock. John and Mike dive into the unique situation that he was in when he was let go by the Raiders and how he handled it, what it was like being in the Raiders organization and how the evaluation and draft process worked, the difference between having a draft board when working with NFL Network and having a draft board as the GM of the Raiders, and finally the guys dive into some of the top names in this years draft. 6:15 - Mike Mayock 30:04 - Relationship change with other GMs 34:51 - Thoughts on JJ 41:01 - Thoughts on Caleb Williams 48:25 - Brock Bowers WR ranking #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me.

84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The volume. The thrill and excitement of Marchmania is here. And Draf King Sportsbook, one of America's top rated sportsbook apps, is giving new customers a shot to turn five bucks into $150 instantly in bonus bets with any college basketball. bet. North Carolina listeners, don't forget, Drafking Sportsbook is now live in your state. Download the Draft King Sportsbook app and use code John, J-O-H-N, new customers can bet five bucks to get $150 instantly in bonus bets only at Draft King Sportsbook with code John.

The crown is yours. Gambling problem, call 1-800 Gambler or in West Virginia visit 1-800 gambler. net. In New York, call 8778-8-8-Hop-N-Y or text Hope-N-Y 4667-369. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org. Please play responsibly. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas, 21 and over, age varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. See dkng.com slash B-Ball for eligibility and deposit restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. What is going on, everybody, John Middlough, three and out podcast?

That'd be me, and this would be the show. Hopefully everyone had a really, really good Easter weekend. I went on with Colin on Sunday, so that if you haven't checked out that podcast, is out there in the ether, came out Monday, and today, which will be Tuesday, for those listening, is an interview. And it's just me and Mike Mayock. He was the Raiders GM with Gruden. Obviously, he was with the NFL network for a long, long time running that bad boy.

And he was really, really good. He was somewhere on an island in Georgia enjoying his life. But you talk about a football junkie who, you know, we talk a little bit about everything from regrets as a drafter to Derek Carr to just, you name it. And then obviously this upcoming draft from all the quarterbacks, the wide receivers, and the star tied in. So Mike Mayock joins the show today, which has been someone I've been trying to get on for a while now. And we finally hunted him down. You know, the draft basically three and a half weeks away.

So buckle up, right? Because it's almost here. And if you listen on Collins feed, make sure you subscribe to Three and Out. everything's up on YouTube, including the Mayock interview. The game plan will be, I'll do a normal football podcast, I think, for Wednesday, probably a golf podcast for Thursday, and then a podcast for Friday. So pedal to the medal, keep these podcasts coming, keep the content flowing, try to entertain everybody.

But you guys know the drill. Before we dive into football, I got to tell you about my close friends. the final four in national championship game right down the street from my house well not right down the street glendale's about 30 40 minutes because i don't know why they built the stadium and bfee but it's there and i've been thinking like should i just go to the game and then i looked i went to game time downloaded the official ticketing app of this podcast

and if you want to go to an event baseball starting the NBA playoffs right around the corner concerts everyone's going out on tour this summer comedy shows you want to see someone funny get a laugh enjoy yourself just download the game time app promo code john joh h n joh john your first pair of tickets save 20 dollars very very easy to do listen if the dodgers are coming near you whether you hate them or you love them they are a fun team to watch i saw mookie betts at like four home runs through the first weekend of baseball that they are they're gonna be tough. They really are. So I know a lot of you DM me saying you went to opening day where you live because of promo code, John. Keep hammering that promo code. Enjoy yourself. Yeah, do it. Game time.

Promocode John. Let's dive in to Mike Mayock. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all. Embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network

on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate

business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, very, very excited today to have a long time ahead of NFL

network's draft coverage. and NFL former general manager of the Oakland, Vegas Raiders. Mike Mayock, who's currently on an island somewhere enjoying life. Mike, what's going on, man? Hey, John. How you doing, man? I'm doing great. How's life for you?

Life's real good. I still get to work full-time in the football business from about mid-July to the end of January because I'm doing games for Westwood one. And I'm doing scouting for a private company called Sumer Sports. So I wrote about 100 college reports. I did a bunch of games. So for me, it keeps me around what I love, John. And then February 1st hits, and I can try to learn how to play some golf and try to get back in shape and all those kind of things.

You know, I feel like I know you just because I've followed you so closely, like most of us draft junkies over the years. when everything ended with the Raiders, I would have guessed and knowing some people that had coached for the Raiders when you were there, that you would have just became like a scouting director. And obviously that hasn't taken part. Obviously, the lifestyle in the NFL is a little bit different than the media. Was that when the Raiders tenure ended, did you think about taking a role more suited like that?

It was just football, none of the other extracurricular stuff that can kind of wear you out in that role? that's a good call john i mean uh when i got fired i probably had five NFL teams call me and say hey would you come in uh anywhere from you know assistant GM to special consultant or whatever you want to call you know director whatever um and i think the smartest thing i ever did personally and and um yeah i have to take a step back because you know i mean if you're in the football world and you know it, John, because you are and you are, both inside and outside of building, you're wired a certain wide, right? And you're wired at Taipei, and you're always chasing that next thing, which I've always done. And when the Raiders thing came to an end, kind of an abrupt end

with a playoff team, and I was kind of surprised by the way it came to an end. And the smartest thing I think I ever did was look at my wife and say, let's take a step back. I've spent my whole life charging full steam. I'm over 60 years old right now. Do I want to jump right back into a building and work seven days a week and 15 hours a day and be on the road and do all those things? If I do, that's fine. but maybe I need to take a step back and figure out if I have to do that. Because in all honesty, about 90% of me wanted to do it.

I wanted to get right back in a building and go. And kind of recognizing my own weakness, which is jumping right back in without thinking about it. I think the smartest thing I did was step back. I took a year. I did some football work. I did some games for Westwood. one, but it gave me a chance to kind of decompress a little bit with my wife and family and kind of say, all right, you're 60 plus. Do you really need this? As long as, you know, I started

breaking down game tape with my dad when I was eight years old, you know, and he was a high school coach. As long as I get a taste of some of that and I can talk to guys like you and guys in football buildings and be around the game, I'm pretty good at this point. So, but your, your prognosis is correct. I almost did. You know, it's funny, you know, when I got fired, when Andy was fired, and Chip Kelly comes in, you get let go after the draft. Beside my mom, my friends, no one knows who the hell I am, right? And it happens all over the league and it will happen around draft time, a lot of turnover. You were in a unique position where, obviously, you just had a successful season. A lot of craziness happened that year. But you were pretty famous because of the role that you

had on NFL network before you ever took that. In that role, you had been part of just success, over the latter part of your career once you're done playing. Is that a weird thing to handle? Like when I was fired, obviously most people, my dad was a farmer, people that are fired because they're lazy or they're late. You know, it's weird telling someone that you're not used to, it's because it's a failure, but you're like, well, I didn't actually fail.

It just things happened that were out of my control. How did you handle that, you know, internally and personally? It's a good question. You come off something where you think, you know, you inherit a four-win team, and three years later you win 10. You're on nine-yard line against the Super Bowl Cincinnati Bengals with a chance to tie the game with four downs in 35 seconds. We didn't get it done. So I kind of came off that season thinking, okay, you know, it was a crazy year. You alluded to it.

You know, John Bruden got fired. Henry Ruggs was in that office. accident. It killed a woman. We had a lot of bad things happen. And Rich Basatia was unbelievable. And to this day, I can't believe he's not a head coach in the NFL. And I think Rich and I saw things the same way. And I think we saw that there could have been a future there building on that playoff team. So getting fired, I kind of, I was like, wow, I understand there can be individual criticism on some of the draft picks. And I certainly understand why. Not everybody knows why guys got picked when they got picked. But to your point,

yeah, you know, everybody knows who the NFL GM is. A lot of people knew me from the NFL network. And there was a lot of public criticism out there, which I think I'm fine with because since the first day I did a mock draft at the NFL network 100 years ago, you know, people are going to take shots at you. And I don't really care. It's just when your kids or your loved ones are kind of like, you know, who is this guy and why does he hate you? And you just got to go, it's all right, we're good. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I felt awkward for a little while because I think everybody does when you get fired. Were you confident when that season ended that you guys were going to be the package deal and keep your job? Or as Mark was interviewing

outside people, was there an uncertainty there for you? Well, I mean, at one point, we're six and And, you know, first we took a gut punch with the Gruden thing. We were three and two. We won Rich's first two games to go five and two. And we go on, we had a biweek at five and two. And we're getting healthy. We're feeling good if we had beaten Philly and Denver back to back before the bi week.

We're feeling pretty good. And then the Henry Ruggs thing happened. And that punched us in the gut because Henry Rugg is a great kid. who made an awful decision. And we ended up losing a bunch of games in a row there. So we were six and seven at one point. And I'm sure Mark Davis was sitting there thinking, you know, I'm going to move on. And we were able to win the last four.

We're the number five seed in the AFC. And we gave the Raiders their second playoff team in 21 years. So I think there was some optimism between Rich and I and the coaching staff and the scouting staff that we're going to build something. you know, you know this. And I talk a lot about it on my show is, you know, this is the period of time. And really for the last post combine is when the coaches truly get involved in the draft process. And you were very outspoken, especially after your tenure about like we were a coach driven organization. Talk about the balance of, you know, not just John, but the assistants who have a streamlined process to him getting heavily involved in how that changes a draft board of like, we were all over this guy.

well, we didn't like this guy and then things dramatically change late March, early April. Well, I think the most important thing to understand is that regardless of the process in your building, when you put a name in, he's a raider, right? And you unify behind that guy, regardless of what the thought process was to get there. You're very familiar with both sides of it. Most NFL buildings, the GM has final say, and let's face it, the GM and his staff live with that draft for about 11 and a half months of the year. They've got the best depth and feel for the draft. The coaches come in to your point after the season, then they've got to do free agency with us, and then they start in on the draft with us. So they get a good feel

and the coach's input is valued at varying levels by different teams throughout the league. And one of the best coaches in the history of the league told me when I was first starting at NFL network. He said, Mike, one of the biggest things I have is I got to evaluate the evaluators. Not every coach is a great evaluator. They might be great teachers, great fundamental teachers, but they're not great evaluators. And by the way, not every scout is a great evaluator, right? So if you're the general manager, you've got to kind of know who you can trust, bottom line, and who might be better off just being given a certain task and finishing those tasks.

And when you're going to really cut that board down and set your final board, you only trust certain number of people. So that's a long way of saying that, you know, there's probably reasons why the GM has final say in most buildings. And this is not a shot at John or Richie or anybody. right this is not a shot at any of them um we had a different process and it could it be frustrating at times for our scouting side yeah no doubt but it's often frustrating for the coaches as well the bottom line is i don't think a GM is ever going to give a coach a guy he really doesn't want makes no sense no you know obviously you had a relationship with john and known him for a long time

How does that relationship change? I mean, clearly a role of being someone's friend and not being in business with him then becoming his GM. Was it an eye-opening immediate experience or was it an easy transition for you? Well, I had known John kind of just talking football with them a little bit socially. You can sit in the room and have a beer with John and have a great time. And the one thing I loved about John, and when I took the job, I believed it was the most important thing, was that John has a passion for the game that's unfiltered. And I think I do too.

And I really believe that if two guys felt that strongly about the game of football, that they ought to be able to get to the right decision for the building. Because that's what it's about. It's about the building. You do whatever is best for the damn building, right? And it's okay to have disagreements. Trust me.

I mean, every coach and GM in the league, They're actually good. If you do it constructively and you sit down and watch tape together and, you know, the more coaches help the scouts with what they're looking for and why at every position, the more it helps us do our job. So I'm all in on coach involvement. I'm a coach's son. I am all in on that. Ultimately, I think most buildings are served with the personnel staff following it 100% of the way through. You know, I'll never forget when you guys signed Marriota.

Correct me if I'm wrong. One of your comments after the siding was like, hey, every GM and coach can say they liked you. You know for a fact where me and John publicly stood on you. You have my draft board. And that was, I never really thought about it like that, but you were right. And he went and he's gone on to continue to be, you know, continue his career. Was that a point when you just dealt with especially some players, older players, that you had liked previously? Did that help you out in some of your negotiations?

Because obviously, and you've publicly talked about this, maybe it's changed with Mark because of more and more of the Vegas money's coming. But the Raiders financial situation relative to the Cowboys or the Niners or the Rams is just has been differently. Maybe that's changing. But did that help having a personal connection of like, we like you. And I did from 2012 or whatever year. There's no doubt for both John and I. We had a track record publicly. on television and anybody can look it up. And I think that was good for us. And the Raiders, I got there the last year in Oakland in 2019. And, you know, Mark Davis's financial situations was probably one of the least positive in the league. And now in Vegas, and then in 2020,

our first year in Vegas, COVID hits, and we have no fans. Yeah. No income, no revenue. So we had to structure contracts a certain way with our guarantees, okay, different than a lot of teams. And that's frustrating because we didn't have as much cash as a lot of other teams around the league did. And John would get frustrated. Well, you know, look at the chargers. Look what they did. Look at, look what this team did. Look at that. Why can't we do that? And we just couldn't. And that's okay. As long as you know going in what the situation is and how you have to structure your catch. That's all right. But to your point, I think it did help with a lot of players. Nelson Aguilar. He knew exactly where John and I stood on him. And, you know, he was coming out of Philly and we wanted to sign him.

And he signed with us and had a hell of a year. I thought John got the most out of Nelson. I thought John did an unbelievable job with Derek Carr. You know, since John left, Derek has gone downhill. Greg Olson, our offensive coordinator, also had a big hand in that. But, yeah, a lot of people knew where John and I stood on a lot of players. I watched some of your, you went on Chris Long's podcast, you've been on a couple times, I think, but last year and talking about how after the 21 season, you were getting calls for Derek, you know, that were in the first round range.

And then just a year or two later, they have to cut them for nothing. Did you guys ever seriously entertain? I know you're not, you know, what happened then, but. Was Derek always, because you guys, it's not like you were drafting quarterbacks high, so it's fair to say, because that was always a polarizing discussion. How much they like them? How much they don't like him? Yeah.

Well, he was your quarterback consistently. It's not like you, you know, so what was your overall experience with Derek Carr? And did you guys ever come close to trading them? No, we never. I mean, the reality is in the NFL, the way I look at it is there's always going to be X number of franchise quarterbacks. And that number could be five, six, seven, eight, whatever it is. And you and I could look at a list and you could say they're five, I could say they're seven.

But you know, you know what it looks like and smells like when they're franchise guys. One group below that, you know, let's say there's seven or eight, you know, six, seven, eight franchise. One group below that's another five or six guys that I think you can win with, you know, and meaning you can win even up to a Super Bowl with this group of guys as long as you're good enough surrounding them, on both sides of the ball. I felt strongly that each year with John, Dirk got better. And by the end of the 21 season,

whether you were a Dirk car guy or not, I think you probably had to say he's a top 12 or 13 quarterback. If you liked him, he might have been 8, 9, 10. If you didn't like him, he was 12, 13, 14. But Dirk was a top 12 quarterback in our opinion. So the question is, somebody can give you a first round pick. but if you don't have an answer for who's getting under center next year,

that first round pick isn't doing you any good, unless you're using it for leverage to get up and get a guy you won, you know, unless you're using it. But we never got an answer satisfactory as to how we would replace Derek. And from our perspective, we're getting better every year. We went from, you know, John's first year, they had four wins. Then we went to seven, eight, ten. we thought we were getting better

and we thought dark was playing at a higher level each season. How does your experience going from NFL Network and stacking the board every year for the league and then being and running a team and actually drafting the human beings change your thought on the talent character kind of combination and looking back what you learned the most in terms of that

and football character and all the off the field stuff? Well, when I was in NFL Network, I did two different things. I kind of had my own board of my top 100, my top 150, my by position board, Mike Mayox. But I also had a league value board. And I think it's one of the things that helped me the most on draft weekends in hindsight was that I had a pretty good feel for team, because my job for 18 or 20 years was to be in,

all 32 NFL buildings. So I had gotten to know a lot of coaches, GMs, scouts, whatever, at every level. And it had a pretty good feel of the footprint for everybody, how they draft. Right? So I kind of came out of 18 to 20 years NFL network saying, I know which, you know, I could tell you that for the most part,

Pittsburgh with Kevin Colbert was going to have seven picks. They were going to stay static in each. They weren't going to move up. they weren't going to move back, and it was probably going to be a position of need in descending order. New England was going to move all over the board, up, down, around. They were going to trade into next year. They were going to do all kinds of things. Howie was going to make all kinds of trades in Philly.

He was proactive. So you knew the footprint of each team, kind of. That helped me move around the draft board a little bit with the Raiders. but at the end of the day, the difference is when you're in a building, and you know this, and for most of the year, you're stacking, you know, you're getting all your scout input, you're getting your position, you're stacking it by position, you're bringing the coaches in and you're getting their inputs. Really, the hardest thing is to say, okay, you got a wide out that's a 68, you got a corner that's a 68,

you got a guard that's a 68. How do you stack those 368s? And then multiply that by, you know, 300 players. Yeah. You know, and to come up with the Raider final board. You know, and I think therein lies the nuance. And they're in for every team in the league, you got to know who you are.

Like I always said, John, I always knew that the Ravens and the Steelers, just to pick two teams who drafted well for years in the same division. They always kind of knew who they were. They knew what a Raven or a Steeler looked like and smelled like. And so I could look at a player in the draft and go, that guy's going to go to the Ravens. And he would.

You know, De Costa and Ozzie were going to take them, or that guy's a stealer. And that was a strength for those kinds. They knew who they were. They knew what type of players fit them the most. And they stayed in that lane. And they always draft well. And the thing that maybe my biggest frustration might be that sometimes I think you just got to go get good football players.

You can't always just go for need. And I believe that going in and I believe it even more coming out. Do you think about or have any major regrets from draft A over the years when you were the gym? Yeah, I got a bunch of them. None I'm going to share it today. But, you know, I mean, everybody's going to miss. I know some guys I missed on. And, you know, I kind of look back.

My first year was what, 2019. And we had three first round picks. And really, you know, of the three, Josh Jacobs is the only one that's become a high-level pro-bow player. And that's bad. You know, John Abram is in and out of the league. And Clee Ferrell is a good. solid player, but not the number four overall picking the drafts. The flip side of that conversation

is that we got Max Crosby in the fourth round. You know, we got Hunter Enfro in the fifth round. We got our punter who's a pro bowl punter as a free agent. We got Keishon Nixon, who's now the Packers All-Pro punt returner in starting nickel as a free agent. We got Andre James as a free agent, the starting center. We got Alla Gingold as a free agent. We got four. We got five pro bowlers in that draft. And people, and that became kind of the, so on one hand, to answer your question, John, one of my biggest frustrations is those first round picks. On the other hand, we did fairly well throughout the draft in 19. We did okay in 21. 20 was a whole different story and highly frustrating. But you got to be honest with yourself. And we did pretty well

with the third day guys, but you can't miss on as many first round picks as the Raiders did as we did. Obviously, you know, you talked about the GMs and you got to know every single one of them texting phone call basis personally. How did that relationship change when you were named the GM and then your time when you were with John? Did that, did it dramatically alter some relationships and just the way you guys communicated? Well, I don't think it altered the the functional dynamic of a relationship. You either respect. Yeah, your friends are friends,

but I just mean the way that you guys would talk about players. Did it change? Of course it did. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not going to call up DeCosta and he and I aren't going to share notes on, you know, the top five whiteouts in the draft. You know,

and I always, I loved Howie when in Philly. I live in Philly. But, you know, Howie's one of the most. active draft guys in the league. I'm, excuse me, trade guys. And when Howie picks the phone up and calls you, you've got to be on your P's and Q's because Howie knows every data piece on every player. And he's really smart. He's thinking three moves ahead of everybody. So I think

all it does is change the dynamic of the relationship. I respect Howie. I respect Eric. But it's different. You're not sharing information like he used to. You know, it's funny. Jed, the owner's meetings were last week, and Jed York gave a comment basically like, yeah, we missed on Trey Lance, but ultimately we got Brock Purdy. So if you just look at it, we invested all these assets. Like you said, if I said, you got two picks, one pick is four. And I'll just pick, let's say Crosby was pick 180. And you got, and I said, one's going to be Max Crosby. Who cares whether it's 4 or 180, right? You just want Max Crosby, but ultimately you just, we view those picks, and rightly so, right, because the power of a high pick and the money you have to pay them.

But I've heard you talking before. We hear about the draft coming up, all these trades. It does take two to tango, right? To move back. Everyone's like, why didn't you move back? Well, we would have loved to, but the phone wasn't ringing. Is that a process that people don't talk about enough? It's like you get stuck.

I think the general public, everybody wants to play GM these days in this fantasy football world. And they're like, yeah, just trade out of that pick. They have no idea how hard I tried to trade out of that number four pick. I mean, one, two, and three happened exactly like we expected, which was Kyla Murray, Bosa, and Quinn and Williams. Didn't you try to trade with the 49ers to get up to get Nick Bosa? Yeah, I did.

I did. You know, I tried to trade with them, and then I called the Jets. And, you know, they saw the same thing I did, especially if you're looking for a defensive lineman, which we were. You know, they got the two best ones. And so. So, you know, bottom line is I would have loved to move down, but we couldn't. You know, speaking of the 49ers quarterback, Brock Purdy, did you evaluate him coming out?

And what are you just, I mean, the conversations around him are all over the place. My take is pretty simple. It's hard to watch him play and I think he's a good player. I don't have any other conclusion besides I just watch the kid play. It looks pretty good to me. But your thoughts on him at Iowa State and just, are you surprised that what's happened over the last? couple years with him? I did not do his tape. It was not a draft I was involved in. Every time I watch them and some of the crossover tape that I've done, because I haven't done

a San Francisco game in the last two years, it just looks like in John I think one of the hidden arts and quarterback play is anticipation. And I don't think we talk about it enough. and it's hard to see sometimes in these college offenses that are so lateral. You know, everything's a lateral throw. But Purdy's anticipation, timing, accuracy is high-level stuff. Fun to watch. And the fact that he had so many starts at Iowa State, and again, I didn't do his tape, so I can't talk about that.

But I do love the number of starts he had. He looks very comfortable in the pocket. That's another thing we don't talk about. enough about just I'm a big believer that a quarterback either innately has presence and awareness in the pocket or he doesn't. And you can tell Purdy has it. Yeah, I was looking at some of the athletic testing numbers from JJ McCarthy. He's shorter than Alex Smith, but they're very similar athletes. And I would say JJ, obviously the way he played for Jim Harbaugh would have some parallels the way Alex had a lot of success. The difference I would say is JJ has a better arm. So if Alex

would have had a better arm, I mean, he was already a solid play. or he might have even been really even a better player. What are your thoughts on J.J. McCarthy who clearly looks like he's going to get drafted really high? Yeah, I've got an old, you know, just like every old scout. I've got, I, the only top quarterback I haven't done is J.J. McCarthy because I did a top 100 overall, and he wasn't on my list. This is going back to last August. Okay. So I haven't done him. I find it interesting that, for instance, if you're going

to look at Caleb Williams, Jaden Daniels, Drake May. I would throw Michael Penix in that group too. How about his, how about his pro day the other day? Four, five, five, it jumps 36 inches, Mike? Look, look. For a pocket quarterback who he knows a great thrower of the ball, he's an athlete. I don't necessarily think I saw four or five five on tape, but he is a big, strong, athletic kid that can layer the ball at all three levels. He took a beating against all. Oregon. He kept on ticking. Why I like him is he wins in the pocket. He can get outside the pocket, but he wins in the pocket. He shuffles, he moves. He keeps his eyes up. And some of his back shoulder stuff is high level NFL. I mean, he just has a gifted field back shoulder at all three

levels. I don't think, and maybe it's the medical, but the kid's been healthy for two straight years now. And you've got to You've got to listen to your doctors, but I don't understand why he's not getting more traction out there as a high-level quarterback. Well, Mike, how do you balance that? Because clearly, as Tate speaks for itself, he was fantastic. He had several season-ending injuries, I think three. And, you know, he's a little older. You're not a medical professional. So when the trainer goes, well, he's fully healthy.

He hasn't missed a game in two years. You see him at the pro day. He's running four-five jumping. He's clearly healthy right now. Right. How do you balance that unquantifiable? Well, when he was younger, he got the shit beat out of him and he didn't make it through seasons. Now, what if that's never a case?

Or what if it crops in immediately? Would that keep you up at night? Because he's clearly, I like him. You couched it well. And the conversation in the draft room, we'd have our doctors and our trainers and John and I and a couple high-level people in there. And I would be saying what you just said. I'd be like, wait a minute, four years in a row at Indiana, he couldn't finish his season. Yet he transfers and starts every game the last two.

And from my perspective, he had two ACLs, he had a clavicle, a shoulder. You know, though if you, now doctor, you tell me the other side of it. I know he hadn't missed a game in two years. To me, that means he's clean. Yeah. Right? The only way to me you get, this kid gets. minimized medically is if the doctor pounds the table in your draft room and says,

uh-uh, you're not even going to get one contract out of this kid. He's got a bad knee or a bad shoulder. If the doctor doesn't say that, then this kid's got to be given a clean bill of health. Agreed. And to be, I mean,

every year there are a couple of kids that are tough. I mean, the starting guard for Kansas City from Tennessee, Smith. Trey Smith, yeah. Gray Smith, I mean, he was a first or second round pick on every board, right? And John and I both one of them. And our doctors told us point blank, no, he's got a heart issue that could be an awful situation if it turned the wrong way. We can't take him. And meanwhile, you get into

the fifth or sixth round and Kansas City's taking him and, you know, he started every game since and you're pulling your hair out. So how do you balance, let's use him as an example, is he just a complete off the board or like you get to a point like what do we even care it's a fifth round yeah if it wasn't a heart i think you're what you just said would be true like okay we get to the sixth round and let's take a flyer on a kid that could be a pro ball player i think our doctors and i'm being respectful here i think our doctors at that point we're saying wait a minute if if if this thing went wrong in the wrong direction we could have something awful and i don't think we want to put that kid at risk for that. So we're in the fifth or six round and John and I both want this kid,

but they're telling us no. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds, I was having trouble. stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot,

or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You've watched every top quarterback on film over the last two and a half decades. Caleb's been a well-discussed player for years now. What are your just thoughts on the overall prospect? Yeah. And where would you rank them with some of the top guys over the, years, you know, the Staffords, the Lux, the Trevor Lawrence's, just the no-brainer number one guys.

I don't know. That's a good question. Here's what I tell you. I think about him. He's my number one guy this year. I wish I'd seen him personally up close because I have not been in the same room or the same building with them. And I don't like it when I don't see quarterbacks throw the ball alive.

I'm doing everything off tape now. But having said all those things, I don't know how big. his frame is up top, but he's got a strong lower body. You can see that on tape. He runs through a lot of tackles. He's strong in the pocket. What I love about him is I forget all the fancy stuff, all the off-balance throws, off-platform throws, his escapes, his scrambles. You got to win inside the pocket to be a franchise quarterback in the NFL. And this kid wins in the pocket. His eyes stay up. He's got a natural feel. He took a beating this year, way more than he did in 22. And did he make some throws he probably wants to have back? Yeah, but he was trying to win football

games. He was taking more chances. He was getting sacked more. And you can knock him on all those things. I see a competitor that can make every throw at every level. He's stronger than you would think he is. And I think he's a high-level potential franchise. quarterback. What about the next couple guys because it's kind of up in the air who's going to be the number two pick? How would you rank Drake May and Jaden Daniels? The Jaden Daniels thing, you know how John, when you're watching tape and you're not really sure what to expect and you put the tape in, you go out and the more you watch, the more you're going, holy crap, this is really fun. That's how I was with Jaden Daniels. The more I watched from a, from his legs perspective,

It reminded me of Lamar Jackson when he came out. Like, he was as fast as he needed to be. He was not only running away from linebackers, he's running away from corners and safeties that have angles on him. You can't just make a decision that you're going to draft a guy because of his legs, but his accuracy on the deep ball, he had 55 starts. I'm a little worried about his upper body frame, but again, I think Daniels is really talented.

Drake May had 26 starts. You know what's interesting, John, you ought to go back if you haven't already. Take a look at North Carolina State. They're getting beat up in the second half. And one of my frustrations with him is that I felt like he was overly protective of the football at times, not throwing with anticipation, not throwing guys open, trusting his legs when things broke down, instead of waiting to see if that second or third progression works. They get down like 16 or 18 against NC State. Offensive plays, I want to say, like 33 to 48 or 50.

There's a collection of plays in there where he does all the things I just talked about him not doing. He throws guys open. He throws with anticipation. He runs when he has to. He takes a couple shots in the pocket, gets up and makes another play. And the only reason he was doing it is because they were behind and he had to try to find ways to make a play. And if you can do it in those situations, I believe you can do it beyond that. So I like Drake May. I think I like Jaden Daniels a little bit more. I like Michael Pennix in that conversation. And then, you know, you talked about McCarthy, a couple of guys that, you know, people are talking about Bo Necks is a first round pick. And I didn't see that. I don't feel like his physical trait.

match up with those other guys. And two guys that I think we don't hear enough about are Spencer Rattler and Michael Pratt from Tulane. I would put those two guys with Bo Nix, to be honest with you. Safe to say second day guys. I mean, second round guys, excuse me?

For me, Rattler and Pratt would be second day guys. And I think Rattler's talent is second round all day long. I mean, if you put the Georgia tape on, and they're leading or tied or whatever it was at halftime. I mean, it's all him. He was getting a crap beat out of him with a bad offensive line

by University of Georgia and he just kept making plays. Now, in the second half, he got the crap beat out of them and so did they. But he just kept trying to make plays. I think he's got armed talent. I think he's athletic.

I think he can escape pressure. I like Rattler. And Michael Pratt is, I would, he's not quite, as electric, but I think he throws with anticipation and timing, and he'll be a quality backup, if not get a chance to start somewhere. I'm with you on the Jane Daniels. I threw on the Malik neighbors cut up, and it's hard not to watch the quarterback. I mean, it grows the accuracy,

but you know about the athleticism. I would say a lot like Lamar, Lamar got very, I mean, he's lucky in the sense that he got to go to the Ravens, a high level operation with a high level coach and good defense. I mean, who you are as a quarterback, especially a dual thread quarterback. And same thing with Drake May, right? I mean, I think some comps are a little bit like Josh Allen. I think Josh is more physically gifted, but in the sense, needs a lot of work, but there's a lot there to work with. But I'd say Josh is somewhat of an outlier of a guy that maximized all those things. Whenever you draft a guy at that position specifically that just, you just not quite sure, isn't that pretty risky proposition? Because the one knock on Jayden is he's thin. I know he weighed in a 210.

most people think he weighs 195 pounds probably. Right. But he has done it at the highest level against the best competition in the SEC. I turned on that NC State game. I remember in the middle of the year, all this hype. And you're watching that middle stretch of his season. You're like, what is, what am I missing here? And you know, but clearly, because when people talk about him,

some of the first things they say, well, he's six, four, two, thirty. Right. And that's the first thing you say about him. That's, you know, what about, you know, is accurate, his anticipation. So it's a polarizing girl. I don't want to keep you all day, but obviously the wide receiver class is pretty good. And I think I'm from Northern California,

the Sacramento area, so Napa's right up the road, to go from Napa high school to Georgia and on a team with 700 NFL players, most of whom they got drafted really high and immediately be one of their best players. I think Brock Bowers is one of the better college players I've seen in recent memory.

And at that level, if the Chargers were to get stuck at five, which is possible, right, if the four quarterbacks go, they're going to have their pick of the litter. They don't need a left tackle. So all, technically, I'm sure he could probably play right tackle. But the wide receiver or Bowers, I would put Bowers right there with the wide receivers in terms of what I've seen.

What's your thoughts on Brock Bowers? Yeah, I think more and more, my buddy Daniel Jeremiah calls it kind of a positionless NFL right now. And I agree with them. Like, I don't care what label you put on wide out, X, Y, Z. or tight end, Y, F, whatever. I don't care about the label. He's a playmaker. Okay, and you're going to be creative in ways you use them,

just like San Francisco does with their tight end out of Iowa, kiddle, you know, similar kind of size body type to Bowers. Bowers is a baller. And whether it's making catches against corners, safeties, and linebackers, running away from people using his body, what I like is he'll even line up in line and compete. And I don't think he's going to make a living in line in the NFL, but he'll compete.

And that just, and as a former scout, John, you and I, we're looking for competitors, right? You know, we're looking for guys that compete their asses off. And that's what about, he's a gifted dude in the past game and he will compete in the run game. Is he a top 10 pick? I think on paper, talent wise, yes, he is. And I don't care whether you, what you call him. but it's a little bit you mentioned Lamar Jackson

a minute ago and you said it's lucky Baltimore drafted him well to Baltimore's credit they've created a whole offensive scheme around what he does well and that's what Greg Roman was good at. That's what some of the things they did to put Lamar in

position to win and that's the same thing with Bowers. You've got to put him in position to win. You've got to take advantage of what he does really well, and that's win in the past game. And I think he's special. Would you be comfortable taking him above the other three wideouts if you were in a position if you could take either? I love neighbors. I love Marvin Harrison.

A dunze is, I have a dunce, just a notch below those two. And I think Bowers as a weapon to, yeah, I think you could lump him in there. But again, the caveat is, if you're going to take a guy at four or five or eight or even, you know, if you're going to take that tight end somewhere in there or that whiteout, you better find ways to get him to football. You can't just draft him and say, go block the defensive end and pass protection. We're not doing that.

I get you out of here on this. Most years they're just, you know, littered with defensive players, whether it's, you know, a couple corners, some pass rushers, Miles Garrett, Nick Bosa, whoever. It doesn't really feel like that in this. this draft. Who's a defensive player that you just go, I don't think we're talking about them as much. And sometimes it's because the quarterbacks take up, suck up so much oxygen. But it legitimately, I mean, there's a chance that defensive player does not go in the top 10, which would be kind of

crazy, but it definitely is on the table right now. I think there's some edge rushers that are exciting. You know, the Dallas Turner from Alabama, the kid from Penn State, Chop Robinson. and I think the Latu kid, Latu from UCLA, he's gifted. He's a big, strong kid that can play on either side. He can play with his hand down. He can stand up. He can drop. He's an athletic kid.

I like him a lot. Verse from Florida State. I think any of those guys are worthy of talking about the linebacker from what A&M, is it Cooper? Yeah. Boy, is he fun to watch on tape. and the two corners that I really like are Turrey and Arnold from Alabama. And a kid that I don't think people are talking enough about is a Lasseter kid from Georgia. I mean, I think he was my, he and Arnold were my two top rated corners.

And I'm seeing a lot of second round grades on him. And I just, I think he's a better player than that. What do you think the keys are? One more question. At corner now. I mean, living it day to day like you did. is that, I've always thought the top end speed. It's hard to be a slow corner.

Obviously, you can get away with it a little bit in certain type defenses, but still, you're going to get put in position. The level of talent at wide receiver in the NFL right now has to be top to bottom, never been deeper. It's hard to kind of hide when you're a high, 4-5, low-4-6 guy. Is that a make-or-break number for you that you need to, I mean, have some speed and a certain number cut off you're not touching? I try not to get too heavy on the cutoff on the numbers.

I want to know what they ran. More importantly, I think in today's world, a back shoulder throws is, can a corner find a ball with his back to the quarterback? And the other thing is, I think you've got to be cognizant of what your defensive coaches are asking your corners to do. you know, are you a single high team playing off and mostly zone concept, cover one, cover three? Or are you going to be a press team? Or are you going to do a little bit of both? And I think once you answer all those questions and you know what your defensive coaches are looking for, you, the fit is the most important thing. I mean, I've played with some corners that are 4-5-5 that just have a great feel for the game.

and they don't look 4-5-5. But the hardest thing to find I always thought is when the corner's back is turned, you're a pressed corner and you're running with the receiver and it can either be a go, a fade, or a comeback back shoulder, all the advantages go to the wide out and the quarterback. Can you find the football,

whether it's a deep throw or on the back shoulder? And a lot of these guys, no matter how gifted they are, they can't find it. And if you can't find it, ultimately you're going to get exposed. Yeah, I've always thought instincts or an attribute. You can't quantify, but in a lot of positions, you either have it or you don't. It separates the men from the boys at the highest level. Well, Mike, what times your tea time tomorrow?

Probably 9 a.m., John. 9 a.m. Well, enjoy it. I cannot thank you enough for doing this. and, you know, respect the hell out of you and enjoy this next couple weeks leading up to the draft and have a great summer. Yeah, I appreciate you having me on and I followed your work in the past and I know how much you love it and you have a passion for it. So I wish you the best. Thanks a lot, Mike. Talk to you soon.

You got it. Appreciate you, Mike. Thanks a lot. My pleasure, guys. The volume. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite, unhumored me with Ryan. Robert Smygel and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band

with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the Look Back at a Podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam Jay And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it

with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human