The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 3 & Out - Pass rushers in the draft, Patriots draft needs, Mailbag

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

John dives into the top pass rushers in the NFL draft by breaking down the top three, where he thinks they might get drafted and where they would be a good fit. John also discusses the Patriots and should it be foregone conclusion that they are going to draft a QB when they have so many other needs as well. Lastly, John answers your questions for this episode's mailbag segment. 5:17 - Pass rushers in the draft 9:21 - Dallas Turner 15:57 - Jared Verse 19:52 - Laiatu Latu 27:01 - The Patriots stink 34:30 - Mailbag Follow John on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube for the latest. Check out Gametime - the fastest growing ticketing app in the US, and the official ticketing app of 3 & Out and GoLow -  for tickets to all of your favorite NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA teams. Concert and comedy show tickets, too. Go to Gametime now to create an account, download the app and use code JOHN for $20 off your first purchase. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Typically, we get a pass rusher in the top five. It feels like there's a 50-50 chance. None of these guys go in the top 10. I wanted to dive into those players as well as, are we sure New England's taking a quarterback? And if they did trade, back, is that the craziest thing? What if you think big picture and just kind of reset your franchise with some players given that you could argue they have one of the worst, if not the worst roster in all of the NFL? And the Middilkoff mailback.

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Cannot recommend them enough. Download the GameTime app. Promocode John save $20 to checkout. Usually in a draft, no matter how many good quarterbacks and how many good offensive either wide receivers or tackles are in it, we see several defensive linemen, specifically defensive ends, go really high. I would say most drafts have a pass rusher going in the top five. Several have multiple.

There's a chance in this draft that there is not one pass rusher that goes. And if that does play out that way, that's insane. But it's also reflective of the group. Now, part of it is if four quarterbacks go one, you know, in the top five, that pushes guys down. But still, if a high-end pass rusher is on the board, usually they trump every other position, including tackle. You could make the argument that they are equal. Like, quarterback's number one, and then, like, 2A and 2B are either offensive tackle or pass rusher

or pass rush or offensive tackle. But there's a good chance that, like, two or three offensive tackles go in the top 10, and not one pass rusher. Now, Atlanta is the wild guard. They have not had a good pass rusher since Jonathan neighbor. their defense as a front four has just not been very good beside Grady Jarrett. They have had no edge pressure. And any time that you force a need in a draft beside quarterback,

especially when a guy probably shouldn't get drafted in that spot, it can get a little dicey. And historically, sometimes with these pass rushers, guys get drafted with limited production. Think about last year the Raiders. I think Tyree Wilson from Texas Tech. A couple years ago, the dude, Trent Balke, took number one overall over Aidan Hutchinson,

all on measurables, and we're going to teach him how to play. Those picks are always really risky. Because you go, his ceiling is much higher than Aiden Hutchinson. It's like, yeah, just take Aiden Hutchinson. He's going to be a really good player. But I understand it. Because you get around these guys,

anyone that's ever been around an NFL defensive linemen, especially a high-end guy, and I've been lucky enough to be on the sideline at a lot of games. It is, when you see the big blue-chip bodies, you're like, there just aren't many human beings like this walking around. I remember the Bengals in their heyday with Marvin Lewis, their defensive line was huge. When I was with the Eagles and we'd play the Giants every year, their defensive line was massive. They didn't do small people, right? It was like big blue chippers. And hell, when I was with the Eagles, they took JPP.

And it was a big projection. My last year in the league, Ziggy Ansah, whose career got derailed by injuries, but it was a big projection. But the physical attributes were elite. You just don't find many guys that size with that strength, with that athleticism. So there's a fine balance. And I say it all the time in a draft.

You have to balance how good the guy is now and how good the guy is going to be in three years. And that's where a lot of pressure comes on coaching staffs, a lot of pressures on the scheme that you run. Right? It's like with any young person. If I hire a guy at 22, hopefully when he's 25, he's going to be a lot more valuable to my company or in his role, you know, over the course of time with experience, with reps,

with teaching. And it's part of life. So it's a very, very, you know, difficult balance to strike. when you get a Nick Bosa or a Miles Garrett, they're kind of no-brainers. You go, this guy's going to be fucking good. Like, this guy, he could play any team in the league, and he's going to be a high-end player.

Those guys are, I would say, few and far between. Most guys in a draft room are not Marvin Harrison. Like, not many flaws. It's going to be a good player. Most guys you have long discussions about. And this group, Dallas Turner, Jared Verse, Latu Latu, is one of those groups. Let's start with Dallas Turner. You know, in a draft room, when you're discussing a player, you talk about everything.

His background, where he comes from, his role with the team in terms of team captain, leadership. This guy was a blue chip five-star player. He started immediately at Alabama. That is not easy to do, obviously. And he was overshadowed his first couple of years by Will Andrew. who the Texans traded a first round pick to trade up for. Now, I don't know if Will Anderson's ever going to be a Hall of Famer, but he's going to be on that team for a decade.

He is a really, really good player. And the knock on Dallas Turner is he is an elite athlete. Not a good athlete, an elite athlete. He's 6'3, 250 pounds. He ran a 4-4-6. There are wide receivers in this draft that did not run that. His vertical leap was over 40 inches. That is remarkable.

His broad jump, his standing broad jumps, where you stand on two feet and just jump as far as you can landing on two feet, was 10 feet 7 inches. Which I'd say anything over 10 for a defensive lineman is eye-opening. So his athletic measurables are elite. Like, they just don't get any better than that. Here's the problem. Talking to people in the NFL is like, listen, no one disputes.

He is a speed rusher. Power is not his thing. He's not bull rushing guys. He's not great against the run. And I've always said this. Like, listen, if you are an elite speed rusher, I can live with some average run play. Get shoved around a little bit.

But I don't love taking that guy in the top 10. Jim Washburn, one of the famous defensive line coaches. Actually, it was Howard Mudd, RIP, who passed away several years ago on a motorcycle accident. Many people consider him. If not the best, one of the best,

right there were Dante Scarnacchi, offensive line coaches of all time. I'll never forget being in his office around draft time. And he had the thought of, like, when you watch a power player, whether it's a guard, whether it's a defensive tackle,

because we talk about like, you can improve your strength, in the NFL. He's like, your strength is kind of your strength. You can improve like your bench numbers with time or squat an extra hundred pounds over the course of the next five years. But your play strength,

in his experience, and by the time I met him, he was like 70 years old and been around football forever, it doesn't really change. I've always thought that. So when you go, this guy can improve his strength,

I would never go off that. Your strength's kind of your strength. Khalil Mack was strong as hell at 22 years old. He's strong now. You usually don't see guys as defensive linemen that aren't strong, get really powerful. D. Ford is a good example. I know his career was derailed with injuries, but speed pass rusher was never strong. Never got strong.

So the thing with Dallas Turner, speed rusher strength the major issue. And as a speed rusher to be quote unquote drafted in the top 10, his production's good, right? Two of his three years, he had to combine 20 sacks. So he gets to the quarterback. Because Jim Washburn's thing was, I don't like projecting sacks or projecting pressures. You either know how to get around and to the quarterback

or you don't once you get to the pros. Most guys aren't like no sacks in college and then all of a sudden become double-digit sack. guys in college or in the pros. So this guy has been around the quarterback a lot. Here's the problem. When you talk to people that have really evaluated him, it's like he should have like 17 sacks.

Something's just missing a little bit. He gets close, turns the corner, and just doesn't get home. And for a guy with these athletic attributes, you think he would have like set a sack record, especially playing on that unit. But he didn't. And even last year,

if I wanted to go, well, he was overshadowed by Will Anderson, well, we all agreed Will Anderson was the best defensive player in the country. You would think it would make it a little easier for you. So I think there are, no one argues this guy's not a good prospect. Not a top 2015 prospect. I think once you start talking eight to the Atlanta Falcons, people go, it's pretty risky. Now, you know where I stand.

You get in the batters box, high in the draft, and you swing for the fences. right? And this is not one of those guys, like last year the Raiders taking Tyree Wilson, seventh overall, when his production wasn't really there and it was all on the athletic attributes. That's risky. Doesn't mean he's not going to turn out to be a good player, but you're betting on a lot of unknown. You know this guy can turn the corner. But can he ever be like a high-end pro bowl guy? I know a lot of people that don't think he can't. I just know when I look at these numbers and you look at his production, and you go, it's a risk worth taking.

So a lot of people are mocking Dallas Turner to the Falcons who are in desperate need of any sort of edge rush. And I don't think it would be a crazy pick. Risky? 100%. But am I taking him much higher upside than, say, Jared Verst? I would. Especially team captain, Alabama, high-end guy. The one thing, when you get the high-end focus guys to Alabama,

like, they aren't fucking around. Like, Will Anderson, serious is a heart attack. So every ounce of talent they have, they maximize. And this guy has talent jumping out in spades. 4-4-6, 40-inch vertical. He's 250 pounds. But his strength is, you can't expect that to change. Because the reality is it's not going to change.

Like, strength is always going to be something he deals with. But it's 2024. If this was 1988 and every team was running the ball 35 times a game, yeah, it'd be a problem. Teams pass nonstop. It's a passing league. And a lot of teams pass it a shitload. So you're not facing Kyle Shanahan every week.

So I think that has to play into the equation. And I would say that the mock and everyone put him to Atlanta, you would have to imagine that he is in play there. Versus an interesting guy. Because in these draft rooms, like I said, you talk about their background. And in the transfer portal days, a lot of guys move teams. And like a guy goes from Fresno State to Oregon, right?

Or Boise State to Oklahoma. Happens all the time now. You know, a little under-recruited, grew into his body, things changed. And this is a guy that put on a bunch of weight, changed positions, and whatever, transferred to Florida State, which has been one of the better programs in the country the last two years. I mean, this year, when their quarterback went down, they were going to the playoffs. I mean, they were not just one of the best teams in the country. They were one of the best defenses in the country, and this guy was their best player.

The concerning part is anytime you come like kind of out of nowhere, it's just, there is something to be said about guys that are blue chippers. Now, that can also lead you astray. Some guys get drafted in the second round, and they've never been good in college just because, well, five-star recruit, underwhelming, but he has all the physical characteristics.

So I'm not saying that's the end-all, be-all. Starts at a small school, goes to Florida to say, and dominates. I mean, dominates. So you go, okay, whatever. weird situation Albany Division 10 school whatever

He is You know He's 6 3 260-ish pounds And texting around I was like You know Is this kind of like

Brandon Graham Is that because he's a power rusher Dallas Turner speed off the edge Right I beat you I bend I get to the corner And you can't keep up

With my speed This guy much more in the mold of bull rush you shove your ass back into the quarterback, which power guys are a little riskier because not all power translates, but when it does, clowny, Mac,

like strength is strength. And this guy's a powerful player. The one comp I kind of got from a couple people was much closer to like a Rishon Gary, a Kvon Thibodeau, right? Not bendy, a little stiffer, but the power's going to work. High-end character guy, hard worker,

you feel good about it. out. Those type guys, like, Kvon's a good example. He's a good player. He's a starting, really good starter. Is he ever going to be some blue chip pro bowler? Like, I don't know. Best case scenario makes a couple. And I know people like, pro bowl, what does that even? You know what I mean. Like a really, really high-in player. Maybe this year, because his talent around him is better, we'll see, a lot of pressure on him. This guy's not viewed as a top 10 pick. But if I get Roshan Gary or Kvon Thibodeau, to me, this guy, would you rather have Dallas Turner and take the risk at 8? Or get this guy at like pick 16?

And I think this guy is one of the more intriguing prospects in the NFL because all the teams in the teams go that's pretty good value there. Right? If I get Rishon Gary at pick 16, like that's a really good pick. And here's the, I say this all the time too. I'm like, I'm a hypocrite because who are we comparing them all to? like good players. Some guys just, what if he's Solomon Thomas? What if he's Cleveland Farrell?

Right? That's the hard part about these type guys. They're athletic. He's a good athlete. He ran a four or five. But the power game, try hard is, that's not,

that's doing him a disservice by saying that. But plays with a lot of effort and power can be tough. When those guys pop, it really pops. But when it doesn't really pop, you just get a solid player. Now, the good thing is, and we say this all the time about non-quarterbacks,

even if he never becomes a pro bowler, he still plays 25, 30 snaps a game. So he can become a winning player, which he definitely was in college. But I think this guy is clearly viewed as a guy in the mid-teens. Now, I think a guy viewed pretty consistently as the best pass-risher is the guy from UCLA Latu-Lat-2.

Here's the problem. There is a massive medical, red flag on the guy. He started the University of Washington and had a neck injury. And for a brief second, medically retired. Then he got surgery. He was cleared and he played at UCLA. In the last two years, he had 23 sacks. He was arguably the most productive pass rusher in all of Power 5. And he was the Pac-12 defensive player of the year. And he's kind of got it all. Lance Zerline, who I trust, who's evaluated these guys for decades, compared him to T.J. Watt, the power, the speed, the technique.

Like, that's one of his things. He's a technician. He's just a natural pass rusher. He's one of those guys, Jim Washburn would say. This guy is fucking born to get to the quarterback, and he knows how to do it, and he's proven it. The problem is when you have a huge medical red flag, fair or not, because you go, well, he's not only been cleared, he's been productive and played the last couple years.

And here's the thing about UCLA. You go, well, Chip Kelly, they were an offensive team. Their offense sucked last year. They've been a defensive team, especially last year. Anthony Lynn's son, who was their defensive coordinator, got hired at USC because he's a really good defensive coordinator. And this wasn't just their best defensive player. This guy was arguably the best defensive player in the country. I just know that that medical red flag scares you.

But this is, we talked to Mayock about this a couple weeks ago. anytime a guy's been injured and had serious injuries, Michael Pennix, you go, okay, he's got medical issues. But then once you go a couple years and don't miss games and show your durability, are you then a medical red flag? And this is where the doctors get involved, right? Because they give their opinions. In GMs and coaches, they don't have medical degrees, right? They have coaching and personnel degrees. That's what they do for a living.

So when these guys come in and go, God, You know, there's a 50-50 chance. That thing comes back to fruition, and we got a problem, especially in the trenches. The game is a lot softer now, right? In terms of guys going across the middle, the big hits are out of the game, the trenches is the one area where it is still very violent and very physical and where you're still able to get after it. And obviously, you use your head and collide a lot more than other places on the

field. Now, on an island on the edge, I would say it's a little less violent on a consistent basis than detackles, guards, and centers where they're so close to each other. But it's still something that isn't avoidable. Now, he's 6'5, 260 pounds. This guy is the tallest of the three, and then the most productive. And unlike Verse, who was a transfer from a smaller school, this guy went to Washington under Chris Peterson at the time, which was a high-end program. So I don't know,

I wouldn't call him Dallas Turner Blue Chip, but he was a high-end prospect. I think most people agree if the medical didn't exist, if there weren't any questions on the neck, he would be the eighth overall pick. The Atlanta Falcons would pick him.

And you could argue there's a 50-50 chance. They pick him at eight. Just take the risk. If their doctor sign off, on it. So there is no Miles Garrett, Khalil Mack, or Nick Bosa in this class. But there are very, very intriguing prospects at

this spot, which if you hit on this guy becomes a $100 million player. So I understand, I'm okay with guys that aren't great against the run. I pay you to sack the quarterback. Would I like you to be able to kind of anchor down? Of course. But if I view you as a guy like, could he, could Dallas Turner end up being a 13, 14 sat guy?

I'm taking that risk, especially because medically he's a lot clearer than Latu, Latu. But if you tell me Latu and my doctor's like, yeah, we think everything's good now, I might take him. And I don't think anyone, whoever takes him, if he somehow falls in the draft and someone gets him in like the early 20s because of the medical red flags and teams are scared off, it could turn out to be one of the best picks in the draft. I saw a lot of scouting reports say, listen, other guys are going to go higher in this guy. This guy's the best pass rusher in the draft. Just like Michael Pennix. If Michael Pennix was 21 years old and had never been injured, he'd be a top five pick. But when you're older and you've been hurt, it rightfully so, scarce teams.

But sometimes then guys are durable in the pros and you don't have issues, right? And then guys that have been durable in college get to the pros and they get injured again. So no one knows, right? So if you prove durability over your last couple years, I would lean that, like, I would take the chance the guy's going to be durable in the pros. But that's not usually how it works, and I would imagine Latu falls a little bit,

and whoever gets him, like, if this guy falls to the late teens, there's going to be a team with 7, 8, 9 wins kind of in that range that's going to feel very, very good about their draft pick. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

And the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because. of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your One thing that I think is universally accepted right now in the NFL is the Patriots really suck.

And their roster is really terrible. And most people just go, well, they're going to take a quarterback. I think we all agree it's a pretty good quarterback class, right? Obviously, Caleb, big time prospect. But Jaden's really good. Drake May, in any given draft, even with some of his flaws, is a top 10 player. And J.J. McCarthy, I've comp to Alex Smith. with a better army.

Alex Smith went number one in a draft with Aaron Rogers. Like, Alex Smith, if you get Alex Smith, you take that guy in the top five. So I feel pretty confident that four of the quarterbacks are going to go in the top five. Maybe Arizona gets stuck

and they end up taking Marvin Harrison to just get Kyler Murray a guy because they got an extra pick in the first round and then maybe the Chargers trade back. Or vice versa. Maybe the Cardinals trade back and all quarterbacks go top four. But this is a good quarterback draft.

The Bears are obviously very equipped to insert a quarterback, right? Good offensive line, weapons, good defense. You could argue it's one of the best landing spots for a top pick of my life. Usually the top overall pick, Matt Stafford goes to a team that didn't win a game. Peyton Manning went to the Colts who were dog shit. Trevor Lawrence went to Urban Meyer and the Jags. Andrew Luck was somewhat unique because they had the number one pick because

Peyton Manning had hurt his neck, but they had been to the playoffs for a decade straight and had a ton of high-end players. but most times you go to a really price young. I mean, an awful team, Kyler Murray. Caleb gets to go to a good spot. But Jayden Daniels also gets to go to a good spot. They got some pieces skill-wise. They got a ton of picks to add offensive linemen.

They need to get a defense, but just in terms of what's around him, he has an experience offensive play caller. Not really my style, but Cliff's called enough plays on Sundays now that you can't really argue. That's not normal. Usually these guys go to shit teams, right?

And that's what the New England Patriots are. Historically, the New England Patriots, with the skill they have on their team, is a team that drafts number one overall. Here's the thing. They don't have a general manager. The crafts refuse to name one. They have Drodmeo, who was a really good player,

team captain level got high-end guy, has been an assistant coach for less than half a decade. So you get in this situation where you go to a team that's awful, it's almost set up to fail. I saw it once upon a time with Alex Smith. I mean, it happens all the time. Is it crazy that if New England's like,

you know what, let's trade back, load up the team, and just figure this out as time goes. What is the rush? Because Drake May, if we assume Jaden Daniels is going to go number two overall, the betting market says that,

coward said he's heard that, everyone thinks that. Are you in position to take Drake May? Who is a legit project? With all the needs you have? Now you can go, are you going to have the opportunity to ever be in this spot again?

I would say decent chance, yeah. I would say if I was a betting man, I would be stunned if the Patriots weren't drafting in the top five in 2025. I would bet fucking $10,000 right now on that. I don't think you can gamble on that, but I feel really strongly about that.

They are going to suck. Now, I've said that before and been wrong, but I feel pretty confident on this one. So, because ultimately, like last year, I thought the Rams were going to suck and the Bucks were going to suck. Well, the Rams had a bunch of high-end players and Stafford was healthy. The Buc's entire team full of Pro Bowl guys from the previous Tom Brady regime still there, and Baker played well. And they won, whatever, nine games, 10 games, whatever, and won a playoff game. But they have high-end players. How many Patriots have started?

the bucks. How many Patriots would start on the ramps? The guy was wrong, because I bet on Stafford's health against it, and I didn't think Baker was any good. Turns out Baker still got a little in the tank. I don't see that with the Patriots at all. If I'm the Patriots, I would definitely entertain trading back. Now, obviously, ownership plays a role in this. Maybe he wants some hope because hope is powerful. Heard Colin talking about that. The most powerful part about the NFL draft is hope that this guy can become a high-end player. And when you do hit on the guy, can change your franchise. I just don't know if they're equipped to do that.

And honestly, if you get a spot where you can add first round picks, second round picks, that might be the move. Because if Jaden's off, to me, McCarthy makes no sense there. He's much more as everyone, and I've said, Alex Smith. If you're Alex Smith, you have to be in a spot with a good team. When Alex was on good teams, he was fine. When you put him on the bad Niners teams, it was a disaster. You put J.J. McCarthy on the Patriots.

I don't think they're winning a game. You put them on the Vikings, and one, he doesn't have to play. He gets a redshirt that year. Like it. Makes some sense. You put them on the Giants, I'm out. I don't like it. So you're fit batters.

So much is out of your control as a quarterback. Who your play caller is, who your receivers are, who your offensive line is. I don't feel good about any of that. Patriots' offensive coordinator, Alex Van Pelt, was just fired by the Browns. Their offensive line is hideous. their skill guys, best player is probably Kendrick Bourne. It was like the fourth wide receiver on the Niners four years ago. I don't like Kendrick Bourne.

But got issues. So I would entertain, again, I would like, I would try to get a haul. Like I wouldn't just trade back a pick to not take quarterback. But if you could move back like five spots, get a haul, I think that's probably the move. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. call it grotesque, others say it's unleashing human potential. Either

way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple

podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and. and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little count? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all right. Yeah, yeah. Literally.

But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, Middilkoff mailback time. You guys know the drill very, very easy to get involved. At John Middilkoff. At John Middilkoff is the Instagram. Fire in those DMs. Get your questions answered on the show. We'll start with Tyler. As more NFL teams who are up for a new stadium

opt to build multi-billion dollar indoor stadiums, of course, to host a Super Bowl, do you think Goodell fears the NFL will eventually have an arena football league feel to it? Losing its tradition of being a sport played outdoors, it seems like every time I turn around, a new team is building a dome. I fear in 15 to 30 years, there will be no outdoor stadiums.

Football and baseball deserves to be played outdoors. Well, that's a good question. What to wait and see on, is Buffalo's new stadium going to be endorsed? Chicago, you know, something to monitor. I would say Lambeau Field's never going away. that's outdoors. I would say

MetLife was built, is not going away. That has two teams. That's not going outdoors. Or not going indoors. Foxboro, not going. And then you just kind of go around the country. The West Coast teams,

you know, Seattle, that's here to stay. Niners, here to stay. Some of the southern teams, I guess Atlanta's in a dome. Dallas in a dome. Yeah, I mean, it's, I like outdoor football.

I'm with you. But think about some of the AFC North. Baltimore outdoors, Pittsburgh outdoors, Philly outdoors, Washington. I would imagine if

he just hired some consultant from D.C. to help them build a new stadiums. Hopefully they keep that outdoors. I think it's a point of difference and something you should want to keep. So yeah,

some of these new stadiums for sure, right? Raiders were a good example. Raiders played outdoors, now they're indoors. Charters played outdoors. Now they're indoors. St. Louis,

was already indoors, so they're indoors again. But I don't disagree with you. I like outdoor stadiums. Fear being the Arena League, no, but I also wonder, too, think about this. Put yourself, let's say me and you ran a team, and we were going to build a new stadium, and we were in a cold weather city. Well, if I have a dome, I can get Taylor Swift to come. I can get the Rolling Stones to come.

I can get George Strait to come. I can get whoever, post Malone. Much harder to do a concert in snowstorm and freezing cold. Right? So there is, this is a business, you know? At the end of the day, this is about making money. So I get it. I'm with you.

I do not want to see domes everywhere. But I do get it from their standpoint. What's up, John? The players in this upcoming draft should the Raven select that you think would contribute right away and make the team a clear Super Bowl contender. They pick 30, 62, 93 in the first three rounds. Specifically, one to know what players could they take.

Well, I don't have my big board out here, but let's think about the Ravens right now. They, who'd they lose? They lost a linebacker. Well, there's not a linebacker going in the first round. So I could definitely see. Now they have guys coming up. Here's the thing with Baltimore.

It is hard for younger players on a team that is equipped. They let a lot of guys walk in free agency because they usually have backups who are pretty good. So you could always go corner, right? Humphrey's been banged up and getting a little older. Safety plays good. Defense of lines good. You could always go with a defensive lineman, could always go with an offensive lineman, have a quarterback, could always draft a running back in the middle rounds.

wide receiver. They've invested in that position pretty heavily, right? Zay Flowers. They drafted Bateman a couple years ago in the first round. They still got Mark Andrews. They got that other dude who's pretty good. Lively, likely, lively. So I would imagine they can never have enough defensive linemen.

You know, linebackers, they always prioritize that position and defensive back. I would imagine they go defense would be my gut. And, you know, I guess they signed Derek Henry, but that's probably a one-year thing. Specific players, you probably need to, like, listen to Dane Bruegler for that. But those would be the positions that kind of jump out to me when I think about them. They're going to be good. I mean, they should – you'd put them right behind the Chiefs as the team that should be right back in the AFC championship. To me, the Ravens are going to be a Super Bowl contender when Lamar has really good playoff games,

against Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen. Like, he is going to have to play a high-end game against another top-five quarterback. You're not in the Super Bowl right now because you lost to a team to scored 17 points. Not all his fault. Your offensive coordinator was bad. Your roster's always good.

Comes down to your quarterback play. When your quarterback play's been good and he got hot, you won a Super Bowl a decade ago with Flacco. A little over now. You know what I mean. Like, you didn't win the Super Bowl last year because Lamar had a bad game against the Chiefs. I'm not blaming him completely,

but that was not the Lamar that we saw throughout the season. That was not the Lamar we saw play the Niners on Christmas Eve. That was not the Lamar we saw in the second half against the Texans. Here's the problem. The Texans team wasn't nearly as good as the Chiefs. And Lamar kind of freaked and just wasn't good. So if he plays well, regardless who you draft, you can win a Super Bowl.

Period. Point blank, end of story. But he's going to have to play well for three weeks. He basically played well in your two playoff games for a half. He's a $50 million player, rightfully so. Several times, multiple time MVP in one of the more fun players we've ever seen in the NFL. And all that stuff's great. Like Josh Allen is not won advanced far enough in the playoffs.

It hasn't been his fault. His defense has screwed him multiple times. Your defense kind of came to play. they scored seven, they did not score a point in the second half. That one's on Lamar and the O.C. And to me, that's going to be the thing next year. Lamar and the O.C.

In the big moments, you're going to be in the playoffs if he's healthy. That's a lock. As a Lions fan, our GM Brad Holmes has said he will draft the best player available over a neat. What do you think of this as a strategy

and do you believe the best teams employ this in their draft room? I think it's a easy. easy thing to say, take the best player on the board. But you also have to be realistic, right? Like, if the best player on the board is a running back, like you wouldn't take a running back if you're the lines. If the best player on the board is a tight end, you wouldn't take a tight end.

So there is a balance to it. If the best player on the board is an offensive lineman and you already have a good starter there, that's where you're like, okay, you do that anyway. If the best player on the board is a pass rusher, I think where you get into trouble is DB, for example. Obviously, the Lions defensive backfield. I know they invested into it this offseason,

but still, I would say, a place of need and emphasis for that team to take the next step. If there is not a corner worth taking and you take a corner because you're like, we really need a corner, that's where you get in trouble. So I think that's what he's talking about. But there is, you're not going to take a player who is a redundant on your own team, especially if you have a young player and you guys have a lot of

good young players and a lot of different positions. So, like, would you take a wide receiver in the first round? I'd go, it's probably not what you need. You got St. Brown, you got Jameson Williams, you got LaPorta. You know, I would say D-Limon or D.B. And luckily, in that spot where you guys are drafting, probably should be a player. But I would say that's kind of the universal comment from most GMs. and they kind of,

I don't want to say they're saying it tongue and cheek or they're saying it because that's the thing you're supposed to say, but it's the easy thing to say. And then you get in the position and sometimes you feel, it's just, especially when you're drafting at the end of the rounds, you go, this player, for example. Let's say you love a DB.

It's like most teams have them in the middle of the second round. Well, if you're Brad Holmes, you go, well, we don't pick again for a while. So this guy's never going to be there when we pick next. And we love this player. Ideally, we'd like to draft him 10 spots later, but we don't have the 40th pick. We pick 29th or 30th or whatever you're picking.

Who else, Raven? You're probably picking 29th. You know what I mean? So I think most GMs say that. They do believe that. But you also have to put it in practice because you're not going to take a player who you already have. Question regarding GM decision-makers' perspective versus a fan perspective.

You rarely see anyone ever purchase an offensive lineman's jersey as opposed to other skill positions, let alone right after the draft. Let's use wide receiver as an example. When drafting a lineman, though admittingly very essential, it can be seen as a boring pick. True. Unless it's a top one or two at their position. I personally would rather have drafted a first. first round wide receiver and watch him bust, then he first round lineman and watch him bust. Does that logic play any role in drafting a player?

As in there going to be more pressure as a GM that if you go for a quote-unquote less attractive position and miss, then you are going to be on the hot seat sooner than the assumption there is a need for both and you have them graded not too far apart? Well, let's use tackle as an example. Let's say you're picking in the 20s. and there are still like this draft coming up. There are good tackles in the draft.

You would go, well, it's much easier to get a wide receiver in the next couple rounds. All these tackles are not going to be there when we pick again at pick 55. So yeah, it's quote unquote not as sexy. They don't give a shit about jersey sales. And when you draft a player, the reality is you don't think he's going to bust.

You're drafting him because you think he's going to be good. So you basically choose to be optimistic. Max Homer said this the other day on coming into Sunday at the Masters. He's like, I keep telling myself whenever I think something bad's going to happen when I'm sitting around waiting at night or in the morning

before I have to go to the course, I force myself to think, well, what if something good happens? What if it goes well? I mean, there have been studies that optimistic people are dramatically more successful than pessimistic people, which makes sense.

I mean, we've all been around negative people. Now, there's difference. Like, I'm not saying successful, rich people can't be negative because all of us can fucking be pouty. It's human nature.

But when you're making big decisions, and I would say this would go across any industry, I think you have to be kind of cautiously optimistic. If you're pessimistic or negative, like, oh, this could bust. Of course, any player can bust. Any player could not be. good. But it is, it's harder to find offensive tackles than it is wide receivers. It just is.

Most good offensive tackles are drafted higher than good wide receivers. We have seen all over the NFL, second, third rounders, be really good players at the wide receiver position. Most of the high-end tackles are not Jordan Malata from Australia to be a multiple contract guy. They're usually drafted high. Think about some of the good young ones, Penae Sewell, Thomas, Worrell, They're usually first definitely high top 20 picks. So offensive linemen are just more important. A good one. The edges are the tackles.

So if I have the tackle and a wide receiver graded the same and I need both positions, I'm taking the tackle every single time. And like you said, like the wide receiver could suck, the tackle could suck. And if the wide receiver sucks, we talk about it more. because like you said, people buy the jerseys. But the importance of the line is just more important. Plus, it is harder to slow down all these good defensive linemen in the league. So, yeah, I totally agree it's a boring pick.

There's no doubt about it. Especially like, wait, you took an offensive tackle, pick 22. But if that guy is a 10-year starter, you get a lot more credit than finding the wide receiver. And most guys are not going to be Justin Jefferson to pick 20. too. But I know what you're saying. Been a Giants fan all my life. Well, if you're of a certain age, you've seen a bunch of Super Bowls. I think we need a quarterback. Daniel Jones is obviously not the answer.

Do you think this draft is going to be the one for the history books? All of the quarterbacks feel like first round picks based on quarterback inflation. I listened to Peter Schrager, who put out his mock draft on a podcast. He had the Giants trading up with the Cardinals to get J.J. McCarthy at Pick four. And I've said over and over, obviously taking a position player, specifically a wide receiver, in theory makes sense. You don't have playmakers. But if you tell me they draft one of the wide receivers and Daniel Jones is your quarterback, I don't think that guy's going to have a good rookie year. So if you like J.J. McCarthy, it is much easier to get from six to four than it is

even from Minnesota to get from 11 to 4. Because if you're Arizona, I trade back a couple spots. maybe I add a second or third round pick and I still get Marvin Harrison or I still get the wide receiver I want, Roma Dunzae or Malik neighbors. That's the easiest thing to do if you're Arizona. We already did a big tradeback last year to accumulate another pick.

That's the other thing. They have two first round picks. So if the Giants want to get aggressive, they are in green light position to trade up and get probably J.J. McCarthy. I guess the Patriots could take J. G. G. McCarthy and also the Patriots could trade back and someone could trade up and get J.J. McCarthy. But you guys are in position as a Giants fan to take quarterback. There is no disputing that.

And John Mera went on record saying, I gave them the thumbs up, go get it if you like him. Now, if I'm dayball, I want a player because if I, let's say, let's use J.J. McCarthy. I take J.J. McCarthy. Well, he's probably not starting week one. And if he does have to play, decent chance we're kind of struggling. And I've bench Daniel Jones after work two and five. Well, if we end up going, I don't know, six and 11 or seven and 10, am I getting fired? I'm like, John, they're not. They fired back-to-back coaches after two seasons.

What would give John Mara hesitation if you have two awful years to keep dayball around? So if I'm dayball, there's a little job preservation of what do I have to do to win now. I want to say win, I don't mean the Super Bowl. I just mean compete. So I wonder if internally, now him and Shane are really close, Joe Shane, the GM, right?

They were a package deal coming from Buffalo. But I bet it's a complicated conversation. We all know they need a quarterback. But like Joe Shane's probably going to get a second coach. Is day ball getting a fourth year? If this year doesn't go well, that's where I think it's really complicated. So I don't know.

I think the Giants and the Patriots are two great wildcards. I think the Patriots could easily trade back, and I think the Giants could easily trade forward. I also think that Patriots could just stay and take a quarterback, and the Giants could just stay and take a position player, specifically a wide receiver. I have a degree and an emphasis in human resources, and would love nothing more than to work in the NFL league office or a team. Do these entities have HR departments? And if so, what would be my best way to get my foot in the door? Before my mom passed away, she was in HR and loved football because it brought my family together every weekend. So it would be a dream combined a career if possible.

It's a good question. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine any company with a certain amount of people has an HR department, and NFL teams 100% have HR departments. I don't exactly know how to get a hold of every team's HR department, but they are, what I would recommend is go to LinkedIn, type in wherever you live or all 32 NFL teams, type in their human resource director, connect with them, and send them a DM through LinkedIn.

Or find them on Instagram and then DM them that way. That would be my approach on that. But yeah, all these NFL teams 1,000% have HR departments. Even when a football, like a coach gets fired or GM gets fired, you know, there's a process of the HR like in any company. You see that HR person like, hey, we need a meeting. You know you're fucked. As a Steelers fan, I generally feel like this is our final year with Coach Tomlin.

If you were in charge of the Steelers draft, what would you do? What positions do you feel they need to make a run to the Super Bowl? This is hard because I don't think they're any closer than they've been. They have some really high-end defensive players. Pickens is an interesting guy. Obviously, they traded Deonti Johnson. I thought he played his best year as a pro. Obviously, Warren's a good little player.

I think it's hard because there's a lot of emphasis, take a wide, receiver and they easily could. But they've had a lot of success not taking wide receivers in the first round and getting excellent players later. So you can never have enough defensive linemen, you know, get another young corner to go along with Joey Porter Jr. Or the second. I'd be a little stunned if they took a wide receiver in the first round.

That's not really their MO. It's just that, and maybe I'd have to look through all their drafts, but it feels like most of their wide receivers, they hit on or not tight. top 30 picks. So I thought they should have moved on from Tom in last year. Like I said, it's time for a new start. Sometimes you just need a restart. Not every breakup is acrimonious like some awful divorce.

So I'm like, yeah, we're just time to go our separate ways. That's what I thought. Now, this year is going to be much more polarizing because you add Russell Wilson, you add Justin Fields. Well, if you have the same outcome as last year, it's going to feel even worse. Because like, oh, yeah, of course. fucking didn't go anywhere with Mason Rudolph or Kenny Pickett.

No shit. This one's going to feel fair or not. Like your high end and your ceiling should be a little higher and I just, I don't know if it is. So I think the Steelers are in a little trouble. They're not going to be terrible, but I kind of view them as the same, you know, kind of range they've been in.

9-10 wins and a one-and-done playoff team. I would expect Justin Fields to be their starting quarterback by the middle of October. That's one prediction I feel pretty strongly done. We're going to see Justin Fields much sooner than later. The volume. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.