The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 3 & Out - Rick Spielman Interview, the Bills window, Fugazi Friday

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

John dives into a story that he saw about how the Buffalo Bills window to winning a Super Bowl is closing and if that headline should have any merit, the latest with Russell Wilson and where his best fit would be, Good Morning Football is moving, and the latest edition of Fugazi Friday. Also, John is joined by former Minnesota Vikings GM Rick Spielman. The guys dive into how Rick got involved with Josh Harris and Bob Meyers to help the Commanders find their new GM and head coach, drafting AP, and his retirement.  Later, John answers your questions in this episode's mailbag segment. 5:38 - The Buffalo Bills window 12:06 - Chicago Bears 15:48 - Russell Wilson's latest 19:34 - Good Morning Football is moving 23:54 - Fugazi Friday 32:46 - Rich Spielman Interview 1:07:20 - Mailbag Follow John on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube for the latest. Check out Gametime - the fastest growing ticketing app in the US, and the official ticketing app of 3 & Out and GoLow -  for tickets to all of your favorite NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA teams. Concert and comedy show tickets, too. Go to Gametime now to create an account, download the app and use code JOHN for $20 off your first purchase. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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What is going on, everybody? John Middlecop, three and out podcast. How are we doing? Here is the game plan today. I want to touch on something I saw today at the gym on the Buffalo Bills. It was on television and it just made me shake my head. The Chicago Bears sign Star Corner and just kind of feel like they got it together. Got to give them their flowers, as the kids say. Russell Wilson and the Steelers. A match made in heaven. and Fugazi Friday,

which it's crazy how much everyone has just interacted with the tip and the tipping culture. So I wanted to just kind of hammer that home because I see it. We all feel it every day. It's impossible to not live in America and not just be overwhelmed with the Fugazi that is the current tipping culture.

Rick Spielman, former NFL GM, I thought was one of the better GMs in the league. We'll be on the show as well. Talk to him last week at the Combine. He's a stud. And he's retired now. So we'll get into all that. And then I'll do a little Middlecoff mailbag.

At John Middlecoff is the Instagram. Fire in those DMs and get your question answered on the show. If you're listening on Collins feed, make sure you subscribe to Rune out. YouTube channel, rocking and rolling, as well as thevolume.com. merch. But first, you know I got to tell you about. I'm going to a baseball game on Saturday. The Los Angeles Dodgers, who have a couple of players that I want to see, mainly show Ahe Otani. And they are clearly the number one draw here in Arizona. And they're going to be the biggest draw this year in all of baseball. And if you want to go to a baseball game,

is there anything better? Summer Day, get outside, take a buddy, take your girlfriend, take your wife, take your son, and go have a couple beers and have a hot dog and just watch a little hardball. It's very, very easy to do. Also, very economical. So I highly recommend downloading the GameTime app, the official ticketing app of this podcast, and buying a pair of tickets to a baseball game, to March Madness, to an NBA game if you're an NBA fan, to a comedy show, concert. They have you cover any given event. Promocode John, J-O-H-H-N, J-O-H-H-N saves. you $20. Can't recommend it. I'm excited.

Hopefully, uh, Otani gets a couple A-Bs. Wouldn't mind him seeing a, seeing him hit a moonshot. Because I think the Dodgers are going to be pretty good. So promo code John. When I go to the gym, like I'm sure a lot of gyms, they have, if you're on the cardio equipment, they have individual TVs on a treadmill or on a stair stepper, which you can change around. And they also have some universal TVs, right, that usually have on the news.

and sports channels, right? And my gym has ESPN and ESPN too. So depending on the time of the day, like if you go super, super early, you'll get get up, and if you go a little later, they'll have first take on. And listen, I'm not anyone,

like I don't watch all these shows. They're not for me, but I appreciate the hustle, and clearly they have an audience. Now, I don't know those people, and after just, when you go to the gym a lot and you see the topics, like, how are they doing every single day

has the Cowboys window closed Has the bills window closed Is this the year the Lakers can make a run It's like every single day doing those topics I couldn't do it That's obviously now what this show is I would rather snort glass But the hustle it works

And I looked up today Now I understand talking about the bills After they cut a boatload of players But the headline was Has the bills window closed And I would imagine even normal shows are doing some version of are the bills in trouble? I do think that's fair. I just can't imagine doing that on a daily basis, but Stephen A and that crew somehow can.

I'll say this. That would be the dumbest conversation alive. Because when you have one of, if not, the second best player in the NFL, we could argue Lamar, but there's no disputing who's been better against the chiefs in big moments. That's Josh. You could argue Burrow, but he's now missed multiple seasons, essentially, with major injuries. We all agree whether you put him at two or whether you put him at three or four. Josh Allen is a superstar in the NFL.

He doesn't play left tackle and he doesn't play defensive line. He plays quarterback. Let's face it, the only position that once you have, that's not really replaceable. Every other position, you can find some sort of replacement. Not saying it happens, you're going to miss on players

trying to replace starters, but as long as you have the star quarterback, you're not only alive, you're a contender. Here's the other thing with the bills. Their division stinks. You know that guy Bill Belichick, who has six Lombardis as a head coach,

two other as a defensive coordinator where he was the guy in charge, of some of the great upsets his defensive game plan against Walsh and Montana, long gone. They got Gerard Mayo, no quarterback, and they don't even have a general manager. The New York Jets are hanging on by a thread. And if Aaron Rogers at 40 years old is a shell of himself with that offensive line, they're fucked. The Miami Dolphins, who have been pretty competitive the last couple years,

have made the playoffs two years running, are in financial health. they can't franchise what I was thinking about this today just driving home from the the old home goods store getting some outdoor patio furniture and this is what I think about on a nice quiet drive in my car with some music in the background is Christian Wilkins our second best player like if you had a fantasy draft and every team could take one guy off the Miami Dolphins and it went you know just like draft order so the Chicago Bears had the number one overall pick. Who would the bears take? They take Tyree Kill. If the commanders had the second overall pick, who would they take? They would not take Tua. It would be between Jalen Waddle and

Christian Wilkins. And I think, because they already have a wide receiver, you could argue, they're taking Christian Wilkins. They couldn't afford to franchise the guy. I got news for you. He's gone. He's not going to be there anymore. So this Dolphins team, which I still think is going to be competitive. They also just lost a defensive coordinator, who I don't care who their defensive coordinator is this year. He's not as good as Vic Fangio. And my theory forever has been, it's hard to build some bully in Miami. It's a tough place to run an organization where you got a lot of guys in their early to mid-20s, making a lot of money in probably one of the more fun cities in America. So the bills, they got fucking Josh Allen. Their head coach, we can nitpick them in the playoffs,

has been really, really successful. Last year, was arguably their worst year in four years and they won 11 games. Like I said, won the division, hosted back-to-back playoff games. So this notion is their window ending. As long as Josh Allen plays like he's been playing, hell no, it's not ending. Is it harder? Of course. Some of the guys that they just cut were not even available down the stretch, let alone the playoff games. it's not like they're cutting players who made a bunch of plays against the Chiefs in the Pittsburgh Steelers in the first two rounds. Trudevius White, he was a really good player when healthy several years ago.

He hasn't been around. He's been injured constantly. So, listen, was it ideal what they had to do? Of course not. Look at the Denver Broncos. Why are they cutting all these players? Because of the Russell Wilson contract. It's just really that simple.

The reason the bills are, they've signed some other poor contracts that have kind of come home to roost. But I know this. If I was a general manager, Josh Allen would be the second player, if I was ranking the top 100, like they do on NFL network. Josh Allen would be my number two.

Now, if Burrow had been healthy, I might put him there in Josh Allen number three, but that's what we're talking about. In a quarterback offensive-driven league, their window is not shutting. And I know that plays on first take to, I've been thinking like, who is their audience? I'd love to see the demos on their audience.

Like, what do these people do? But I guess people, I just couldn't watch that on a daily basis. These like just profound conversations, it's like March 7th. They got fucking Josh Allen. What are we talking about? And the Chicago Bears. I was pretty critical of the trade,

of a couple trades. I mean, they, listen, trading is not easy. Not every trade you're going to make is going to work. I am always pro, like anything in life, being aggressive. So I'm all for pushing your chips in the middle of the table when you're trying to get better. Now, when you're not playing well, trading second round picks can be very risky. It backfired on them a couple years ago with Chase Claypool.

And then they did it again this year with Montess Sweat, who I'll give Ryan Poles. I did not like it. And a lot of people have thought what they ended up paying him like $70 million in guaranteed dollars that they would have been able to get him in five or six days because they still could have paid him the most money. Now, I think he would tell you, we're still competing with other people. There's no guarantee we're going to get him. It was worth our second round pick.

We have extra ammo because of this trade. And he legitimately helped them win. He was a huge addition. So I'll probably have to take the L on that one, especially if they're demaintained. That looks like a good move. The Jalen Johnson situation a couple years ago felt like it was about to get weird. A lot like Roquan Smith. And then they kind of stabilized it.

He had an excellent season. Pro Bowler. Franchise now extended. It does feel like I don't blame the Chicago Bears in this Justin Field situation. These guys inherited that. He's not that good. And he hasn't been traded yet because his market's not that strong. No one's trading for a guy who has to pick up his fifth year option who struggles

to throw in the pocket. We have recent examples. I love it when I hear, well, the Bears want the Sam Darnel deal. Well, yeah, that Sam Darnel deal didn't work out. So if I'm another team like, yeah, we're not giving you that deal. We'll give you a fourth or fifth round pick. And then I might not even pick up the fifth year option.

I just play it out, almost like a low risk. See how it goes. If it goes great, then we'll figure it out next year. If it doesn't, whatever. We gave you pick 160. But the Bears feel just solid, at least for the, the first time in a while in terms of some stability, some vision with their organization. Now, I'm sure if any of you guys have been on social media in the last 48 hours, there was the

picture kind of going viral of Iber Fluse and Matt LaFleur at a Marquette game. Obviously, LaFleur always looks pretty cool. You know, he's got tight fit and clothes. He's got the haircut. The eyebrows are perfect. the beard perfectly manicured. It does feel like Iber Fluse has gone through a little, it's almost like he's got, I don't know, a tailor, a stylist.

He just looks a little cooler lately. Maybe he's feeling himself. Maybe he's thinking maybe Caleb Williams saves my job. And there's still going to be a ton of pressure on them, the coaching staff, that is. If they start two and five, which is very possible, you could lose some close games, you've got a rookie quarterback plan.

But it does feel like the vibes are pretty high in Chicago. And I think for the first time in a long time with this number one pick and the hope that that provides given the level of prospect in this draft, how good your defense is, you got some peace on offense. Cautiously optimistic. I think it's fair to be truly just optimistic. Do you have your coach? I don't know. I would probably bet against it. But do you have a GM who's proven to be pretty solid? Do you have a bunch of players on the team that would have started for your good teams in years past? and you have a chance to hopefully strike oil with the quarterback. So if you're a Bears fan, I would put a smile on my face. The Russell Wilson situation is really fascinating. Star players, right, quarterbacks, obviously star NBA players, star baseball players.

Look at these baseball contracts. It's like seven years, $180 million, and they can opt out every single year. That means the team, or excuse me, the team, no leverage, player, his agent, all the leverage. LeBron and Steph doesn't, but Janice has had like two coaches fired in six months. Luca does whatever he wants. LeBron's fired like seven coaches throughout his life. In the NBA, do whatever you want when you're star player. Star quarterback's, same thing. Even though most of them, I would say don't really harness that energy toward like some of these other sports. They definitely do contractually sometimes. They get a lot of money.

but Russell Wilson really had a lot of juice, right? At the end of his run in Seattle, and then after the trade with the Denver Broncos, when he said jump, everyone said how high. Two years later, people are calling him, I mean, dudes around Denver are calling him an awful leader, couldn't wait to see him gone, and now more than likely he's going to take a minimum contract.

Forever in free agency, like when Peyton Manning went on his free agency tour, Peyton Manning was interviewing them. They weren't interviewing him. Even Kirk Cousins this year. If Atlanta really wants them, Cousins has all the juice. Cousins is going to get a ton of money.

It wouldn't shock me if you got three years, $120 million every penny guaranteed. A little less per year, but, or maybe three years, $120 million, $100 guaranteed. He's going to get a lot of money. Russell Wilson's going into these team meetings they're asking him all the questions. He's basically begging for a job.

It is really crazy how fast this turned. And I'm not trying to just shit on the guy. It just literally just, we just witnessed it happening. I don't think we've ever seen anything quite like this. And I'm someone who's seen him live a bunch of times in his prime. He was a remarkable playmaker. And I do wonder sometimes in the NBA is like this, if you're just like an elite athlete, but you can't shoot,

and all of a sudden your athleticism dips. It's like, well, what do you really do? And Russell, it turns out, well, it's never a really good pocket passer. He was not great at playing in the construct and the timing of the offense. He was kind of a freelancer. And when he freelanced, magic happened. Kind of notice it with Deshaun Watson. When the first reeds not there, they naturally scramble because they don't have great pocket presence.

and then when they scramble, they become elite. Well, Russell no longer as elite when he scrambles. And I'm talking scrambled to throw. It's what Deshawn early on in his career with Houston did. It was a premium skill that he had. Roll outside the tackle box and make plays down the field. I remember in a playoff game, I think against the bills, he was awesome at it.

Now when you watch him, and I wonder too, if there's an element, you know, is confidence lost with those plays? because it's kind of just a natural instinct. And once you start thinking, once you start questioning yourself, are you no longer able to make kind of those freelance plays, which help make those guys stars?

And when that goes, you're in major trouble. So I do wonder how much some of these personnel departments, these head coaches, and these offensive coordinators are going to be into Russ. It's going to be fascinating to watch how this next,

I don't know, six, seven days plays out when it comes to his services. I saw the NFL is moving good morning football to Los Angeles. And you see this a lot. You know, the media gets very angry when media people get laid off. And having, I've been fired before. So I'm not rooting for anyone to get fired. And no one's even been fired on this move.

But the NFL network and the NFL quote, enterprises, the base out of L.A., is fired a bunch of people that were quote unquote media people working for the league. And I've always said like, I even saw Floreo writing this. The NFL's swimming in cash and they're pinching pennies. Well, yeah, they're swimming in cash that people are making. Are these, just because I have a lot of money, am I just going to hire people that give me no return on my investment? So like if a bunch of people at NFL network or NFL media get fired, were they actually generating revenue? I would give advice to anyone in any industry. If you're

sales guy, you know exactly like, if you're making money, you're going to be okay. Even if they have to have some hard times at a company, you're going to be safe because we don't get rid of revenue generators. Like a lot of people, a lot of writers over the last six, seven, eight years have been laid off. There's no profit in the written word anymore. This isn't like emotional. If there was, you guys wouldn't be laid off. So when I see these people at NFL whatever get laid off, it's like, well, just because the NFL, the operations making a lot of money, they're not into just investing into something

that's not going to make money. And part of this story about Good Morning Football going from New York to Los Angeles is, well, they already have the facilities there. They don't have to pay a premium for New York rent. I'm like, well, if I owned a business, even if I had billions of dollars or I had hundreds of dollars,

doesn't that kind of make sense? Now, the pushback from me, like I'm sure a lot of people, it does not make sense to do an East Coast show based on the West Coast. If you're going to try to start the show at four or five in the morning, what you're getting from your on-air talent is going to suffer. And they might say, well, who cares? It's not like this thing is changing the landscape of our business.

And this is the problem. Because good morning football. I love Schrager. I really like Kyle Brand. And I think they've had a successful show. but it's hard what they're doing to ever make enough money inside the landscape of the business for them to care a lot and for them to just not be messed with because all the teams, all the television revenue is making so much. Money's all relative, right? So if you're making

$100,000 for your company, well, if the company's worth $2 million, you're really valuable. if you're making $100,000 and you're working for Amazon or Apple, they don't even notice you. So I just see some of these people complain sometimes. It's like, it's why I feel pretty good about what I do. Because it's very black and white.

We're either having success, we're either generating revenue or not. It was like that when I was in radio. It was the one thing I hated about scouting. People have always asked me, like, how did they judge you? How do they know? I'm like, well, it's kind of subjective. I mean, it's just, do they like you?

Do they not like you? Are you in with the coach? Are you not in with the new coach? It's not based on, well, he's hit on 70% of his players. That is 1,000% not how the NFL works. It is not based on merit in terms of how good you are at evaluating. I'm not saying guys that are good at evaluating don't move up. But throughout the league, that value is not valued like us in the private sector.

You're either making money or not for whoever you're working for or with. So I just, some of these overreactions to media people getting laid off always just, like I said, I'm not rooting for anyone to lose. I root for people to succeed. I'm not a negative Nancy here. But I have hard time feeling sympathy if you are a writer or something and you're not generating any money. Like, welcome to the real world. Fugazi Friday.

it is going to be very, very difficult to ever top my rant on tipping and the reaction you guys have had toward it. I have gotten emails, tweets, DMs,

I can't, it's crazy. And I think we all agree. It is out of control. Honestly, since I've seen the reactions from people, I don't want to say, felt bad, but there is some guilt, right, when you just, even if you don't think you should tip and the person's looking at you, you're like, gosh, I'll just give them a dollar. I think since I said

that and I've seen the reaction, I feel no guilt. None. All look to barista right in their eyes. Like, I just drove here to pick up my coffees, $13 for two cold brews, which you guys are clearly ripping me off, but no tip. Today, I went to the gym in the morning. Uh, Maria was working, so I was going to pick up breakfast on my way back, and I door-dashed it for pickup. Like, I'm going from the gym, soaking in sweat, and this place that I went to is in a crowded parking lot, a little off the beaten path. I got to find a spot, which I know is going to be difficult. It's like, do you want to leave a tip? So for myself, driving out of the way, parking, going to you, grabbing a bag? That to me is crazy.

I think a pickup tip, if I'm going to instacart something, if you're going to deliver food to me, you are legit doing a service I don't want to do. I have no problem tipping. But the pickup tip, are you fucking kidding me? Shouldn't I just pay myself $5? I'm the one doing the work. You're just at work.

Bagged up food that you were either going to hand out or bag up. I'm the one picking it up. That to me, is insanity. It goes back and I told this story, I remember Drew Breeze got shame for picking up pizzas and not tipping.

Yeah, he drove there. It would be, yeah, you could call him a scumbag or whatever if you ordered 10 pizzas to his house for a party and didn't tip. But if you order 10 pizzas and I drive 15 minutes,

especially at night in traffic maybe, why don't I just tip myself? I'm the guy doing the work. So I think this thing, man, I don't know if there's putting the cat back in the bag on this one because it feels like it's a It's just kind of avalanche rolling down the hill and everyone feels like they're doing it Everyone and I just think there used to be a very distinctive line, right? You get your car wash

You know the dudes that always like after kind of pulls out and they take their towels and they're Waxing and they're cleaning your tires if you have like I have a Tahoe so I have like rubber masts in the back seat that I always like, hey, can you pull those out? Give me 20. I've always said, I'm a really good tipper. I was a good tipper when I was poor. I was a good tipper as a middle class, young man, and I'm a good tipper now.

Life's going well. If you do a service, but you do no service, the consumer does a service? Like, I'm driving to you? It's wild. I was thinking about it today, like, part of one thing I heard someone saying it's so true,

owning a home is obviously, I guess, financially important because historically homes have gone up in value. But it is very, very expensive. Everything you want to do, right? When I remodeled this house, the blinds were so ugly. I told them to rip them all out. So we haven't had blinds in the house. Now, it hasn't been summer. And the way my house is situated, it's not that big a deal.

But you need to get blinds in the house. and I want to do some of those electric, you know, where you press the button and they're motorized. So I've had like three or four people bid. Home Depot, Costco. It's insanity how much the bids are. But Costco, and this is why this company is dominating, it's like, well, if I'm going to pay, I mean a shitload of money to get my house, which has to happen. Some blinds throughout the house, especially in the master bedroom in the living room. They have incentives like they give me.

cash back. They pay me 17% if I spend 20 grand, I get 70% back to spend at the store. And it's like, all these other companies are asking me to just give them money for no reason, even if it's $5, $10, $20. It adds up if you do a lot of things. So live in crazy world. We really do. Other than that, I don't really have a crazy Fugazi Friday. I did see that Manhattan, and I think the big cities, because I saw this for years in the Bay Area, When I first moved to the Bay Area, I lived in the city for like a year and a half. And then my roommate who owned the place, got engaged, getting married. So I moved.

Moved right across the Bay Bridge. And early on in my radio career, I used to go in periodically. And I could drive into the city. The traffic, you know, in 2012, 13, 14 wasn't that crazy. And you'd go across the bridge, the Bay Bridge, which I would imagine, maybe not now, but in its heyday pre-2020, millions of people. When I first started doing it was like $3 or $4, which, listen, you kind of become numb to it.

It's a major city, whatever. I think now it's like $14. I saw there is, it already passed. If you're going to enter Manhattan in a car between, I think like 6 a.m. to 7 p.m. Enter Manhattan. Not like park, just enter. I don't know the exact streets, but obviously there is a general, you know, based on you guys that live back there, no.

You know, if you're out, you're in, I think it starts on, I read like 6th Street. I don't know exactly where it goes to. You have to pay $15 as a tax just to drive around. I would say that this is crazy, which it is, but I also think it's only the beginning in these big cities. cities. You are literally going to have to pay to just be there. Think how insane that is. I've never driven in New York. I know some of you, depending on the time of day, it's not as crazy. It's always felt crazy when I've watched on the movies. I've been there a couple times, but when you go in by train, it's hard to get a feel for how it would be driving in the city. You know, San Francisco,

Philadelphia, those cities aren't tough to drive in. I think it's fair to say New York's probably one of the tougher cities to drive in. But obviously, people live in the city. You just to drive around $15? Where is that money going to go to? Where? The answer is, get wasted. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay and I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84's big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so... Thank you for finishing that. sentence. I don't think there's a more important

year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, live here from the Combine with

and I'm not just saying this because he's sitting here someone I always admired as a team builder. He drafted a lot of Pro Bowl, all pro-impact players. GM in the NFL for over a decade. And I asked, I said, Rick, Rick Spielman, how are you not a GM right now? And you tell me, no, Moss. You're done. You're retired. Now, my wife made that decision. But we ended up retiring down in Florida and found out that how much I didn't hate the media, but had to go in front of these press conferences when I was a GM. And then over the last two years, being on the media

side, and how much I've enjoyed that, even more than I anticipated that I would. And it's funny, you live in a bubble when you're running a team or you're a general manager of a football team. But when you're on this side of it, you get an opportunity, even though it's a little bit. See it all? See it all. And have to understand a little bit about each team. And you get an opportunity to see the personalities of general managers, how they build teams. And so it's been fascinating to me and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Well, when I say the Spielman name, I think football guys. I mean, you come from a football family. obviously you know these guys because you've done deals with them is your relationship now with the GMs and the coaches feel a little different now because you're not a competitor you can talk to them maybe a little more openly about yeah but I'm never going to call and ask them about any kind of I'm not an insider no no but just picking your brain like I don't know how many training camps I've been invited to that's cool hey come in and uh you got an opportunity come up and visit us and just sharing different ideas and I don't know how many calls I get during a season

on something that pops up just asking advice. And the one thing that after being in it 30-some years, the thing that I enjoy the most is sharing some experiences and things that I screwed up that I can maybe share on maybe look at it, doing it differently this way. Well, I guess most personnel guys, you know, aspire to be a GM. You get to that spot and you're good. I mean, you're not that old. Beside your wife, obviously, wants more time with you. You just retire gut feeling, or you just kind of... No, I think it's just... People want you.

Yeah, no, I know that, but it's just the... Knows a powerful word, though. That price goes up. You know, who knows what holds in the future, but I know where I am in my life right now. And just my wife and family have sacrificed so much for 30-some years that I'm never home. Seven days a week during a season,

seven days a week during the off season. And my wife said, you know, How many weekends you took off in a year? She counted four that I wasn't in the office. July. July. And that was it. And that was after mini-camp.

So to get an opportunity to maybe give her some time, give my kids, even though they're all older now, sometime, you know, we adopted six kids and I have a special needs daughter. And to be a part of her life that I haven't been, able to do. Sorry I got you shook up on this. Yeah. That's a powerful thing. Yeah. So I want to be a dad. Yeah. And still get. How old she? She's 22 now. We adopted her seven months old. Wow. So, but like I said, to be a family guy and it's so important to me and my wife to all the sacrifices they made for me, maybe it's time to give back. For sure. And it's not like you don't play a

role. I mean, I don't want to say famously, but I mean, it was a headline story. You and Bob Myers played a role in the Washington coaching search and GM search. Tell me how that materialized and just what was truly your role in that. Yeah, just to be an advisor, I know when I got a call was just out of the blue. For magic? No. Yeah, it was from Bob Myers, who Josh Harris was looking for a football guy to come into the group to work with Bob and him. And somehow my name was recommended very highly by numerous sources out there. So they asked me to come in. I went in and visited with Josh Harris at his home.

Probably a small home, huh? Yeah, for about two and a half hours. And then he said it was right before the season ended. I didn't know they were going to make a change, but they were just getting prepared. And he told me, if we do decide to go a different direction, we would like you to be a part of the search committee. So knowing the resources and the sources that I have, and I have a lot of personal relationships with a lot of these guys. So it was great to get back involved in that.

In fact, it got the juices flowing pretty good. But during that whole process and going through the GM process, I was just given my recommendations, my strengths, my weaknesses. But once we got Adam Peters in place, who to me was more than ready to be a general mayor, manager, where he's been through in New England, and then seeing how they won championships in Denver, then what they've done out in San Francisco, he was just ready for this opportunity, and I think it was a great hire that Josh Harris made. And then we got into the coaching search and gave my opinions on that. But that was Adam's decision and Josh's decision. It's like when you're sitting in a draft meeting and you're a scout and you say, I can tell you the strengths

and weaknesses, but I don't have to make that decision. The decision makers will make that. So any way I could contribute, the one thing I did tell Adam was that I could tell you what I think, but I'm not going to be, you know, put it marrying the guy. You and this guy are going to have to work together. So you have to pick the best match for you and the best match for Josh Harris. And I think they did that with DQ. Let's start with Adam.

I mean, I'm biased. I've known him for 15 plus years. I think easily he was the most qualified guy. for a couple years now, what he's been a part of. But to me, the separation for him is the personnel in the league, let's face it, a lot of people talk themselves up, use the agents. Adam's not really like that in an ever-growing league, which is a powerful strength to have.

I think the Niners, you know, Kyle's not really like that. John Lynch isn't like that. Belichick's not like that. A lot of the old-school guys are not. Andy Reid's not like that. And I've been singing his praises for years, but you basically scouted him. Yes. And you've sat in that seat.

Tell me you're just scouting reporters. on Adam Peters and why you think he'll be successful? Yeah, there's no question about his pedigree and all the successful things that he has seen through his career through many great organizations, but you pointed out to me, what appealed me to most is there's no ego. It's not, this is Adam Peters and I am, you know, DM, blah, blah, blah.

All he wants to do is get his opportunity, utilize the strengths he has. There's no question about his personality evaluations, but he had a very good handle on all the other things that come along with the GM right now, whether that is handling sports science, whether that's mental health, whether that's video. You have a lot more things coming at you right now than just personnel. When I first started, that was the main job. Scout.

By the time I ended, I was maybe 20% personnel. So you have to have a strong staff around you. And I talked to John, I know John very well Lynch. And, you know, I kind of equated to how George Payton held with me for so many years before he got the opportunity out in Denver. And I couldn't have been as successful as we were in Minnesota without a George Peyton by my side to handle the day-to-day sometimes operations of personnel. Like, I'm not going to sit there. Who's on a shortlist? Who we're bringing in the workout on Tuesday?

Let people in place to do that. And if you as a leader can put people in their areas of expertise, whether it's sports science, whether it's video, whether it's analytics, give them the opportunity to do their jobs and let them make you smarter. You know, one thing, and I do believe in this, I do think it's in vogue's probably even the wrong way to put it, but most people are looking for offensive head coaches, you know, because when that guy starts having success when he's a coordinator and you dealt with this in Minnesota, you lose them.

Right. Andy Reed can't lose the play caller, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh, but you had success hiring a defensive guy and Mike Zimmer. Right. Now, if you hire a high-level defensive guy, you know, they're still going to be dependent on their offensive coordinator, but if that quarterback has success, that guy's going to get a head coaching job. Obviously, Adam hires Dan Quinn, you know, just your thoughts on that kind of, just theory that

you've got to go offense, the defense is out of vogue. What are your thoughts and takes on that? I think that's absolutely the wrong way to approach it. I think hire who's going to be the best leader. And I talked to my brother, Chris, when he was in a process up in Detroit, and they hired Dan Campbell. Natural-born leader. Yeah.

And to me, and I don't know, I haven't done any research on it, but it seems like these former players, D'Amico Ryans, that were very good football players in the NFL, but great people and great leaders of their team, seem to have success when they become head coaches, and they're smart enough to know, as any leader, is put great people around you. And if you are a defensive guy and you can go out and get,

and Dan, I thought went out and got a great hire in Cliff Kingsbury, well, if he gets another opportunity to be a head coach, and I talked yesterday to Zach Taylor about this, when Brian Callahan left, they have a plan in place. So they brought up Dan Pritcher as their new offensive coordinator. Well, he's been there five or six years, start out assistant quarterback coach, quarterback coach. Next thing you know, he's ready.

So to me, it's just like personnel. You develop talent on your roster. Well, I think one of the critical factors, and I think what's stuck out about DQ, we'll get the best head coaches, but it's also my job to make sure we're bringing in the next generation of young guys that can learn from these guys

so that if we do lose them, which is great to go get other head coaching opportunities, We can look externally, but we also have guys that we've been developing over the last five or six years. So give me the scathing report then on Dan Quinn from your perspective. Dan Quinn, and Dan Quinn worked with me in Miami when I was down with the Dolphins. He was a D-Line coach for Nick Saven. So I'd known Dan for a long, long time. And, you know, what he did speaks for itself in Atlanta.

You know, they got to the Super Bowl. We're winning. There's no question about his leadership. the energy he brings in the building. Look what he did with Dallas's defense when he took over his defensive coordinator. It didn't end probably the way he wanted in that Green Bay game, but look at the whole

picture and how he changed that franchise because of the way they were playing defense. The thing that stuck out about Dan Quinn to me the most was that when he was let go as the Atlanta head coach, it wasn't, oh, whoa, was me.

He actually wanted to find out what his blind spots were. And when he identified those, he went to experts in those specific areas. How can I get better in this area? So the next time I get my opportunity, I'm even going to be a better head coach. And when you compare Adam Peters, who's more than ready, but first time general manager is going to be learning a little bit. And a Dan Quinn that has had some experience.

Both of them do not have egos. They just want to do what's best for the commanders. That's, to me, a great combination. Okay, let's talk Combine. Obviously, you know, from Justin Jefferson most recently, but Harrison Smith, the Kendricks. I mean, a lot of good players over the years, a lot of impact guys, playoff teams. He signed Kirk Cousins. This period of time balancing free agency getting ready for, let's start there. This week, dealing with agents and getting a vibe, how important is that to get numbers, to get value on potential trades, to know the value of your own guys? Yeah, it's most of the time you're meeting with, you're technically only. allowed to meet with your own players. Yes.

But they represent others. I would not know that. But it's like, especially this season with a lot of potential franchise tags going to be hitting some of these guys. But this is kind of the initial meeting with the agent

because they're in town as well. You may have had a couple phone conversations and hey, we're putting together our off-season plan right now. We're finishing up our draft meetings. You know, the GM's tied up in free agent meetings. but we'll meet down at the combine. So those meetings usually start around this time.

The thing that's interesting is everybody's asking for X and is it truly, are they going to be able to get X? Everybody says they're going to be able to get X amount of money, but you don't know. But you get a really good sense of where the market's going to be on these guys. Once you figure out who's actually going to be on the market, and then the second part of it is the best thing the NFL did was put in this legal tamper.

period where you could actually start negotiating serious numbers with other players free agents and really start to get a sense of yeah where this market is going to go so if you have a player and you're going to go meet let's just use them hypothetically justin jeperson do you bring your cap guy with you for the meeting of his with his agent or can you just as the GM loosely handle that and then getting the nitty gritty pass them off how does that usually work we always felt you had to work together as a team So you bring your guy with you? Yeah, our cap guy, our, you know, George, our assistant G, whoever it was come in. And to have those initial conversations and to kind of see where this market is probably going to be.

And I can't imagine where it's going to be for Justin when that time comes. But I'm not an expert as a cap. I know the cap. I know contracts. But I pay a guy pretty good money to be an expert in that area. That's why I'm getting back to is hire people that are experts and those. areas and be able to communicate across all those platforms. So I can bridge the coaches.

I can bridge the personnel. I can bridge the financial piece together so I can relate that. This is what the picture looks like when I'm talking to the ownership group. But that's important for me, at least to have my top people in there when we're talking. Even when we were in draft meetings, even when we were in free agent meetings, I want them to hear what the plan potentially can be so they can start. turning their wheels. Everyone's on the same page. And everybody's on the same page for it, said and done. Let's talk about the draft players. I've been in those meetings over in the railroad.

You're the decision maker, though. I think what's unique for a GM, now your coach is involved. They haven't watched these guys. Right. They've been working, especially if you're a playoff team. Right. But you've maybe not met them if you haven't done a school call, but you've seen them. You have a pretty good idea of them as a player. Obviously, you have the information. Is that balance of when a kid walks in, you and the head coach, you're going to, to know them a lot better than the coach because he probably hasn't watched them. How do you balance their first meeting as a personal meeting not based on the tape, good or bad? Is that tough for you?

No, coaches, no, because we always had a plan in place. I think one year I counted, we had 95 people here at the Combite. So that's organizing a lot of people, but everybody had a specific role and a specific job they had to do to get the information they needed while we were down here. But the coaches are just getting started. A lot of times the coaches will go, especially with the technology to do. day, put maybe a 10-play cut-up, a good and bad on this player. And I know you haven't studied him yet, but let's get this player. Easy feel. Yeah, let's get him in front of the, and let's hear him

as you're going to coach him and see how he responds. A lot of it may be in these formals, well, we're not going to get to football. We'll circle back on that. We have some off-field issues that we definitely have to address. Coaches may not be involved in that. If a kid's clean coming in, and I said, listen, we're fine with him character-wise, but start talking to him about football. Let's get a sense for him on how he learns. I mean, it's easy. You may not know the kid,

but you can install something up on a board and see how he recalls that. Just some things to get the coaches initially introduced to these kids. So when you're dealing with a clean guy, pick one of your former Vikings. Harrison Smith, would he fall under that? I would say he's pretty clean. He was so clean.

I don't think we talk. to him after the senior bowl. Would you even waste a meeting on a guy that's super clean and spend more of your time on guys you had question marks with? I don't think we even met with him because we coached that year in a senior bowl. So next time he heard from us was when we moved up to get him in the draft. So of your 60 formal, are you trying to spend most on guys that you might have a question mark that you do like as a player?

Yeah, most of the time, if you're going to get an opportunity in this setting, let's get the guys that we have questions on. We can always circle back on guys or we can do Zoom. with guys because since the pandemic, the Zoom's been a huge tool. But guys that maybe learning came up from one of our scouts that we need to really dive in this next 15 minutes and get a sense if he can learn our system or not learn our system or the character thing or some other thing. Other times it's just, hey, let's get to know the kid and let's put some tape on and

let's hear him talk football. I'd love to see how much recall they had from what, they did offensively. Hey, what was this? Call this play out for us. What was your responsibility? See if an offensive lineman, a lot of them don't need to know that. But what is the running back doing in this protection? So there's just a lot of different ways, like I said, to get to know these guys. But when we picked our 60, I think it's down to 45 this year, there was a specific plan, an individualized plan for each guy coming in. So were there any non-negotiables for you? Or you have to be pretty open-minded as a talent-evalued.

I think when we came in, it was everything open-minded. And then once we got back and we got into our April meetings, then it's like, let's not make any decisions yet. Drafts still, you know, two months away. But when you get into your draft meetings and then it's like, is this guy a character guy, for example, that we want or we don't? If we don't want them, then we're going to take him off the board, regardless of how good a player he is.

is. But I don't make that determination yet. I wait until we go through the whole process, and then when we finalize the board, whether it's a character situation, a medical situation, then we'll make that determination right before the draft. Was there something that was consistent throughout all your Pro Bowl-level draft picks that, like, no wonder? You know, beside the talent and ability to play. What was fascinating to me, I thought we did a really good job about eight years ago. we really started getting into the analytics piece.

And I was fascinated. I always wanted to try to figure out how can we get some kind of competitive advantage. And so we got into not, like for example, most Pro Bowl receivers out of one of the psychological tests that we use has the highest rated social maturity score out of any other position. so that became a critical piece for us. So when they did their algorithms, social maturity for a receiver was weighted more than maybe for another position. Wow. How do you quantify that?

Well, I don't have to quantify that. The people that are doing the algorithms have to. So they go back test that the last 15, 20 years of using this company and all the scores we had in this area. Is it like a standardized test almost they're taking? It was HRT of human tactic resources. which military and so we kind of tailored a lot of things because I worked with them so long to what fit the Minnesota Vikings even though we got the standard you know test that they get the other thing was interesting like for a corner everybody's worried about the 40 well for us

and our analytics people pointed out at the time it was the flying 20 from the 20 to 40 the faster that was the more success they potentially would have as a corner in a league so wow They did a lot of different things to chop it up, whether it's in a psychological, the intelligence. Where I made mistakes on certain positions is I thought you had to be smart, but I forgot the mental quickness piece. How quickly can they process? So a player can go up there and sound like he invented football or he invented offense or defense, depending, you know, sitting there, drawing the exes and nose,

regurgitate back what the coach has just said and even do it better, which is great. And I was like, okay, this guy is going to be a no brain. trainer, but you have to remember, they have to do that in two and a half seconds or less. So how do you measure where I made mistakes, because I always wanted to go back and reassess if we did make a mistake, how do we measure that mental quickness? So I got all the people that are involved in that aspect come up with the way so we don't make the same mistake twice. You kind of touched on it there, but is there something consistent with guys you missed on over

the years? It's different by position. So that's what, it wasn't just okay. But to be honest with you, you always. have to, no matter all the other tools that help you make decisions, it's always going to come down to what you see

and it's going to come down to how much they truly love to play the game. Those are the two things. If they were passionate for the game, at least they had a chance to have a chance. How do you quantify that during the scouting process? The best thing, I guess, if you want to just, you know, like I said,

going through all the tests and they can come up with things, I just love to see if the guy likes to play hard. Did I, To make it simple, did I have fun watching him play on tape? Or was this guy who couldn't wait to this third game? Eric Hendricks, pretty clear. He liked playing football. Yeah.

So there was no question. I enjoyed watching him play the game of football. I enjoyed watching his effort. I enjoyed watching the energy that he plays with. To me, that was like, I just, I see that with my eyes. I know what you may be saying with these numbers, but this guy loves ball. Why do you think, I mean, that famous video of when, I think it might have been the COVID draft, you guys were all at home when Justin Jefferson's not the pick and he's,

you guys have a chance and you guys go nuts. It didn't go nuts. Yeah, but you were excited. Rightfully so. But now we look back and we go, how the hell does Justin Jefferson last, what was it, 22? How is that possible? Why do you think so consistently?

Because I always say this. What happens at the combine helps determine your market value. It's like a home, right? Right. How many rooms you have? How big is the kitchen? That's what the hell. But it doesn't determine how much you're going to like once you live there.

where you get drafted does not ultimately determine your success. But we often look back. How did Devante Adams go in the second round? Well, ran a little slow, played at a smaller school. Justin Jefferson's at LSU on this powerhouse team. Was it just people simply didn't think he could play outside? Like, what do you think, him specifically? I wish I had the answer to that.

I can tell you this. Did you have him view like, I think this is one of the best players in the draft? Yeah, we did like him on our draft board. Clearly. But it's still, everybody sees things differently. And no matter how many objectives, measurements you try to get, whether it's analytics, all the stuff we do here, the medical analytics.

You know, we got as deepest, who did the surgery and what's the success rate of the surgery of the surgery? You got it. If you're going to draft a guy high and pay him a lot of money. So, but it all comes down. It's still a subjective decision. And if someone had the right answer all the time, none of us, I've made plenty of mistakes as well.

None of us are going to have the right answer because it's still a subjective decision. but what I learned, if you can take all the resources you have and minimize your risk to make that subjective decision as small as you can, and then let the dice roll. And sometimes it's lucky in the draft. I mean, I remember my first draft. I was sitting there sweating bullets and were we going to go trade up for Adrian or we're just going to see if we'll let them fall.

I made a decision on the clock to let them fall to us. And I thought, man, this may be the last draft I ever had with the Minnesota Vikings. back in 2006 or seven. And fortunately, that year, the draft board felled us. Adrian felled us. And there's been times, though, that sometimes you wait and you lose a guy. Sometimes people will jump you. Sometimes you move back.

But to me, that's part of getting ready for the draft, not only knowing these players, but also knowing other team's needs. And, you know, we moved up, I believe, to get a Delvin Cook. Yeah, good pick. So it was like, well, where's the threat? If we stay here, are there teams ahead of us or anyone right below us that may jump us because they need that position? So you try to assess those risks as well and hopefully, you know, come out with the best decisions. And sometimes it falls your way.

Sometimes it doesn't. How many pro bowlers do you draft? You know the number? I think over 20 some, I think. I don't know the number. Someone told me that one time. Yeah, a lot of good players. Let's end on this.

One of the, I would say, most talked about contracts of all time you were a part of in Kirk Cousins because it was a fully guaranteed deal. I can't quite remember at the time. Did you take heat for that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the player, I'd say that one aged pretty well. He's a pretty darn good player. Yeah, I think.

Tell me about that process looking back. Yeah, no, because we went to, I believe we just lost the NFC championship game to the Eagles. So we were saying in case had a magical year force. And so that was a tough decision. But when does a Kirk Cousins get out on the open market? Never happens. So when a player of that caliber at that position at that age get out on the open market, and then you know that there are other teams that are going to give him that same deal or more money.

The Jets, right? Well, I don't know. I can't, you know, you hear things, but I don't know who. but I knew that he was going to get what he wanted because of the position and because of what type of player he was. The risk was as much as, and he took a risk too. I mean, he's a great businessman. You see how much he's a lot of money.

But he did a short-term deal. So it was a less risk. Like three years, 85 or something, right? Which is peanuts today. Teams would do cartwheels to sign that contract right now. Yeah, to see where that market goes. So it was a deal that we fully did guarantee that contract, but it was such a, what we had done it for another position?

Probably not, but because of was the player and because it was the position and because we were where we were at as a football team, we thought it was the best decision. Okay, I got to keep a couple more questions on quarterbacks. Have you evaluated this crop, guys? What are your thoughts? I think it's a very deep class. And, you know, you can talk about the big three. It's amazing to me, Caleb Williams.

Let's talk about him. I mean... Yeah, I think he's a unique player. Watching him, there's no question about the armed talent. Some of the throws that he makes on tape, you're like, did he actually make that? You run it back three or four times just to make sure you saw what you saw. And the athleticism, everything checks the box. You know, everybody holds the ball a little too long.

Everybody's going to force things that aren't there. The thing that really stuck out to me the most was that Notre Dame game, when it was probably the worst game I've seen him play. in the first half. I think he threw a couple of interceptions. They got destroyed. But when I just took that out and just watched the second half, it didn't phase him in a second half. It didn't carry over. He actually played very well the second half.

It looked more like the old Caleb. So that told me that I know this guy played a crap first half or maybe not up to his standards, but it didn't affect him going out the second half. They still lost the game, but at least he came out and played. Kept swinging. kept swinging. It didn't stop. And then you look at Drake, May. Really quick on Caleb, you know, I would say beside luck, Trevor was the most tight prospect.

Would you say he's a better prospect than Trevor coming out or Trevor a little cleaner? I don't know because I don't know. I knew everything about Trevor because I was in the front. I'm just talking to the player. Yeah, Trevor, but, you know, I think Caleb's got a chance to be a unique prospect. Height doesn't scare you? I don't know what he is yet. I think he's, you know, 6-1, it's pretty clear, give or take. I know this game now, the NFL game, is all space.

And how many quarterbacks now? Pretty 6-1. Yeah, are successful because of the space and the way that offenses have evolved. So height less important? I think so, because I don't see him getting any balls batted at the line of scrimmage. True. He knows how to move in a pocket to find open windows and make all the throws he's going to have to make at this level. Well, Drake May, height's not an issue.

He's big. I think his biggest problem this year was he didn't have the same offensive line. He didn't have the same playmakers around him. And he almost tried to do too much. But I think he has tremendous upside as going to be a great player as well. Jaden Daniels? Maybe the biggest jump since Joe Burrell. Crazy, huh?

Same school? Say, yeah. And Arizona State, you were like, who the heck's this guy? And then he goes to LSU, and it's like, we had to do a summer scouting. So I looked at him the year before. And I said, yeah, third, fourth rounder maybe pretty good athlete needs to improve, you know, mechanics and a little bit of accuracy. And then this year what he did was incredible. And another example of a guy that you would never guess what you've seen on tape the year before,

excuse me, comes up and maybe the second or third player off the board this year. What about playing with those two wide receivers? Is that scary? I mean, Joe Earl played with two guys is fine. Yeah, with Jefferson and Chase. Is that scary you to not take? It doesn't bother you at all. They still have to make the throws.

They still have to go through the decisions. You watched the game that stuck out to me the most was the Florida game. When you see him running around. Yeah. It was nothing against Florida. They have some pretty good athletes. It's the SEC. But the way he ran up and down the field, I've never seen a guy move as athletic as that since Lamar Jackson.

You know, if you watch Pennix against Texas now, their defense isn't great. He looks like incredible. Right. And then you watch him against Michigan, which if you look at the combine, they're clearly an NFL-level team. and, you know, talent-wise, he got rocked a little bit. And same thing with Oregon, who has a lot of NFL guys. By the end of the game, he's struggling to get up. I love them, but then you watch those.

Like, that's kind of the NFL, Oregon and Michigan, not as much Texas, on defense. Where did you stand on him? Because he throws a beautiful ball. No, I think he's maybe the best deep ball thrower in this class by far. Yeah. Not as athletic as some of these other guys, the experience. But, you know, you just have to remember. you don't take that last impression of that game.

Can't overreact. And can't overreact. Just like you can't overreact, guys not very good all year, and all of a sudden he throws up incredible numbers for one game. Well, that's who he is. You always have to make sure that you don't let your emotion. Balance it.

And go look at the whole pitcher and come up with your assessment that way. And last but not least, J.J. McCarthy. Love J.J. McCarthy. The reason I, you know, everybody's like, well, he's in the offense. you know, he doesn't have to throw all these other. He just wins. But the game that stuck out to me the most, two games. This year, which against I don't understand, the Bowling Green Falcons,

I'm watching him throw three interceptions. And I was saying, this is just unfalcon believable what I'm seeing on tape. But then I go and watch him against TCU in a shootout where he had to throw the ball 30 plus times. And the throws that he made in that semi-final game, Even though TCU end up winning and going to national championship, that told me everything I needed to see about or say about or see it with J.J. McCarthy. Top 10 pick to you?

I don't know. It'll be interesting. I think he's going to shy. I'm saying for you, Perkslegg. Do you think he's that? Or it's more of like a longer turn? Would you too high? I don't know if he's ready to jump day one as a starter. If he can get in a situation where he can learn and grow. But I think he is definitely a top 15 pick for sure. Does the redshirt thing even exist anymore? No, I don't even know what that means.

No, it doesn't. Well, Rick, I really appreciate it, and happy retirement. Yes, thank you. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need. to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that

George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here. unpack what went down and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, Middilkoff mailbag time. Fire in those DMs at John Middlecoff, at John Middlecoff. Get your question answered here on the show. Sports management major. and a class we talked about at Dartmouth University basketball trying to unionize. Do you think this is stupid? If any of the football teams unionize, they'll end up having a CBA agreement with the NCAA. Wouldn't there end up being a salary cap

and a limit on money athletes can get? Or is it the right thing to do and the NCAA should just copy the NFL? Well, I guess in the NFL, the salary cap has nothing to do with how much Patrick Mahomes or Travis Kelsey or any player off the field can make. I don't know enough about the details of the unionization. It does feel inevitable if you just feel where things have started and where they're going, that there will be athletes put on salary. I would say the differences in the NFL,

it feels like it's, I was going to say they're more valuable. but like if you're the starting guard on Penn State, you might be the least valuable guy and your starting unit, but you're still, you have value, you're starting. I think it would be more complicated. The other thing in the NFL is football is independent, right? If I own the Arizona Cardinals,

I don't also have an athletic department where I have these countless other sports. Athletic departments are not normal businesses. Two sports base, any money. Obviously, some schools in women's basketball make money as well now. But the overwhelming majority of Division I Power 5 programs, their football team makes the overwhelming percentage of the cash. Basketball team makes some money. And depending on where you are, a women's basketball team can make some money. But all these like softball, baseball, baseball, soccer swimming, I mean, these sports all

lose money. But because of Title IX and the scholarship requirements, so it's not a normal business. How could you get where only the basketball or football teams get paid under Title IX? It just becomes a complicated issue. Now, does football break away? I know a lot of people feel like that's inevitable, that football essentially becomes independent of every university. and football is just, we're the Michigan football program, but we don't have anything to do with the athletic program. We're an independent entity, which also might be inevitable. I think we're going to see a dramatic amount of change.

I'm sure a lot of people saw the headline of Sabin. He talked to one of ESPN's college football guys, and he said one thing that stuck out to him, he's like, we just have this incredible run at the end of the season. We beat Georgia. we get to the national championship game or excuse me the final four and in this knock down dragout

devastating loss but we're right there against team that won the national championship and then we get back to Alabama and like three days later I'm doing exit interviews and every kid's just asking me two things will I play which I this is that's that question has been happening for decades

that was well before NIL and how much you're going to pay me so in an Alabama there already paying them. The sport's kind of messed up right now because I can only say if I'm an NFL player, how much am I going to get paid if I'm extension eligible or I'm a free agent? If I'm under contract and I've just gotten a contract recently, you don't, at your ex-interview, go, how much are you going to pay me now? That's what I think is a major issue in college football is everyone's a free agent every single year. There are no parameters on it. I'm a lot. There are no

parameters on everything. I was thinking about this the other day. Because a huge beef with the Big Jays has always been if a coach leaves, those players got screwed before the transfer rule changed. I think that should stay. If your head coach leaves, if you're at Washington or Arizona or any of these schools, Alabama,

your coach retires, UCLA, takes another job, whatever. Free game. You can transfer. But there has to be some sort of If I commit somewhere and the coach stays and we sign a contract with our collective to pay you, there should be some sort of parameters about it. Coach leaves no issue. I do wonder just because I heard, was it Mike Loxley at Maryland,

said that when they did their exit interviews after their bull win, the third string running back came into his room, the third string running back, and it was like, I want $100 grand. Like, you do? And I think Loxley was like, Who's offering you $100,000? But I was thinking about that today too.

$100,000, like when I was in college, honestly might have felt like a million dollars. If you knew someone, they got a six-figure job, whether it was out of college or early on, like by the time they were 23, 24, that dude is rolling in it. Feels like 100 grand, like the new 20. For just the way these college athletes are talking about it.

Question for the pod. I didn't even know Spencer. Rattler was in the draft. What are your thoughts on him? If you've watched him on the right game at South Carolina, and they didn't have a good year this year, but two years ago, didn't look terrible. Definitely resurrect this career.

Always had a big arm. You know, I think guys like that, to have a true opinion, because my opinion's going to be negative, it's like, eh, not really my cup of tea. But maybe I'm just the old crumagin. One thing I learned in scouting, which I don't necessarily apply now. But in scouting you have to be like this

is you can't be a glass half-empty guy, which means you're always negative. Like you've got to be open-minded. Things change, young people change. Now, there's a fine balance of being like Al Davis open to anything. And then being like Belichick only wanting super high character guys,

there's some middle ground. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Rattler. Just as a player, remember early on in Oklahoma, I'm like, this guy stinks. But then he went to the SEC, he definitely played better. I bet he gets drafted in, like, the fifth or sixth round would be my guess. Maybe I'm too low. Maybe he gets drafted higher than that.

I have a question about the Niners. Do you think they might do a quarterback switch like the Rams to get over the hump and win the Super Bowl? Kyle loves Purdy. So I would say no. Because coach loves him and he's cheap. And there's no quarterback, like the only quarterbacks you trade him for or not available. That they would trade him for or not available. and really who else

like who would you trade him for right you wouldn't trade him straight out like he's had more success than Kirk Cousins he's way younger and way cheaper Dak Prescott like that kind of crew of guys obviously the top guys from Herbert to Allen to Lamar to obviously Mahomes like

can't do that that's what makes the Stafford situation that was pretty honestly it's one of the more unique trades ever because it was a major win for both sides. The Rams got a guy that took him in the Super Bowl, and then this year, kind of a throwback year, like, Stafford was easily one of the best players down the stretch in the league. He was awesome. And the Lions got Jared Goff, who got him to the NFC championship game in

Detroit, which is pretty rare that it just kind of works out that way. Love your work, actually prioritize listening to you, I'll appreciate that. Question for the mailback. Caleb Williams in the concept of an athlete's brand. Reading a Sports Illustrated article, got this guy's a throwback regarding his and his father's approach to the combine, it makes sense. However, I'm struck by some similarities to Dwayne Haskins, R-IP. Reading about his draft night party and essentially the business he and his family had built around him and then unfortunately he fell flat as a quarterback. What is your perspective on athletes who have yet to prove themselves at the highest level of the game,

essentially posturing themselves as the second coming of Brady without actually having achieved anything. Is it savvy business or massive hubris? I think you have to view these guys a little different because they're making money off their NIL and their brand. I hate that term with guys that aren't accomplished. Like the way Steph Curry or LeBron or Derek Jeter

or Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods, right? The reason the MJ brand is so powerful is because he fucking won six championships. The reason Tiger Woods, like when you said his name, everyone knew the Nike, the swoosh, because he won 15 majors. Tom Brady, I don't know if his brand, the Brady brand and no bull is ever going to be some powerhouse,

but the reason has got a chance because he's the greatest winner we've ever seen. I've maybe I sound like a 70 year old crumudgeon but you can't have a brand as an athlete when you're not like either a winner or a great player I guess you don't have to truly you know it's team sports Alan Iverson had a big time brand it was like the MVP of the league

I mean just one of the best players best small players we've ever seen so I guess you can build a brand without winning the whole thing but I like brands that are built off equity on the field Now, as a draft pick, I have a hard time crushing him for this because they've been running a business for the last couple years. Part of the world changes.

You got to adapt. It'd be one thing if he was operating like this. For years, people looked down at this stuff when there was no NIL, like you were just getting a bag of 100 grand over a couple years from one of these programs. Now you're talking millions of dollars, millions of dollars. I'm sure I didn't make as much as Caleb Williams.

last year and I need financial help. I have to have an accountant. I hit up a couple people, ask some questions about stuff. I can't imagine being 21 years old and getting five, six, however million dollars, free stuff, like things you have to account for.

It's a lot. So you have to approach it like a business. I'm defending them because I, they've been in the business. Like, that's kind of, that's what college football is now. We'll see how that translates. these true juniors are the first crew to play through the NIL era

so I don't know it's something definitely to keep an eye on because I don't have as big a problem with it the days when you're just going to be sitting there with like your three buddies from high school slamming a 12 pack pizzas with mom dad and the neighbors when you're talking about some of the guy was a fourth round pick I think you were a tool

gonna be the number one overall pick his contract is going to be $35 million. And let's face, he's going to go to Chicago. Caleb Williams is going to be one of the bigger stories in the NFL next year. To me, Caleb Williams next year is a much bigger story than Bryce Young. Bryce Young's no longer a story. He just sucks and is irrelevant. And listen, Panther fans, you get mad at me until they show anything.

Small market, been bad for a while. No one's going to care. There are going to be a lot of eyes on Caleb Williams. Mine, yours. even you're not a Bears fan, you're going to pay attention. I'd say it kind of already has a brand. I actually came around on it. Hoping this one makes a show.

Vikings fan. And I keep hearing rumors that we're going to trade up for a guy like Drake May or J.J. McCarthy. Why would we sacrifice assets when we can get who I think is a better quarterback in next year's draft in Chodor Sanders? Or Quinn Ewers.

Quinn Ewers is not viewed as a high-end prospect. people I know do not view him at the level of the names you're thrown out. And Chador, very, very talented. We got a long way to go. Long way to go. Might not have all been his fault. Offensive coordinator fired middle of the year. Offensive line bad.

For as talented as he is, physically he's really gifted, it was hard to kind of judge him at the end of the year. Shador Sanders, I do not think, would be a top 10 pick in this draft based on his one year at Colorado. Now, that can change, right? Jaden Daniels would have been a mid-round pick. Now, I was watching, because I wanted to watch some of the wide receivers,

mainly just the wide receiver at LSU, Malik. So I typed in his highlights. It's hard not to see Jaden Daniels. And I've said before, I having that watch watching a couple YouTube eight-minute highlights for the wide receiver, I immediately text a couple of college directors. I'm like,

is Jaden Daniels a better quarter? unquote prospect than Drake May. I'm not saying he's going to go ahead of him, but both guys return text like, yeah, I think he might be a better prospect slash player. So maybe Jaden Daniels ends up going number two overall. Big time arm, big time athlete, honestly the only question with him,

he does look very, very skinny on tape. Which, whether he weighs 190 pounds or 204 pounds, I don't think it's going to change his draft status, but it is a concern. And he didn't weigh into the combine, gives him an extra 10, 20 days to add some weight, but, God, he was slinging it. I know you don't talk much baseball, but you touched on something recently about how some big names, Boris clients, are unsigned. Several of them are pitchers. I'm wondering why teams wouldn't consider

Trevor Bauer. As far as I know, the legal things have gone away. I've watched several of his pitching videos, and he seems like a real, likable guy. If he was an NFL, NFL player. I think he'd be on a roster and a team and would love to have him on the cheat. If he was an NFL player, he'd 100% be on a team. I don't think Trevor Bauer, before everything happened, and I'm not going to explain it. If you don't know, type Trevor Bauer into Google, it was just a long, windy road. But you're right. It does feel like he's cleared. Everything's over, innocent or consensual. Like it was all about was it consensual or not? There's a lot of physical stuff in the bedroom, weird stuff, which clearly he and she likes, but he was a pretty elite

player before that happened and the Dodgers basically just wiped their hands of them. I think even before that happened, there were question marks. I don't know enough about it, but I remember when the Dodgers signed him, I mean, he should have got like a $300 million contract and they basically gave him three years. So there have been question marks with him going back a long, long time. but he's clearly before he, you know, the Dodgers basically kicked him off the team, he was a pretty elite player. And if we've all followed sports long enough, if you're of a certain age,

it's inevitable he gets signed. Inevitable. Before my question, love your coverage of football and golf. Tell Coward, you need a race. My question, if I gave you the power over the Texans free agency, you've got to sign two guys and draft the first three rounds. Name those targets. I can't do three rounds of the draft.

I would say this. If you are any team with money, you should be all over Christian Wilkins when he hits free agency, the defensive tackle from the Miami Dolphins. I would sign that guy in a New York minute. To me, the Texans and the Washington commanders I bet he ends up on one of those two teams

I would say what else do they need Patrick Queen am I speaking out of it? I don't know the Texans roster well enough obviously that Nico Collins and they got Tank Dell they could use a running back Josh Jacobs

Now you would say Casario Patriot guy signed a running back They could just draft one Though I've heard it's not a great running back draft I would do everything humanly possible to keep helping out your young quarterback. So I would use free agency, buy a defensive lineman,

buy a linebacker, or one of these safeties, right? Buy those type players. Draft, offensive line. Go get a guard. Your first pick is what? In the teens, actually your picks go into the Cardinals, but you have the Browns pick.

I'd take an offensive lineman or a defensive lineman. Or if one of those tight ends, I don't think it's a great tight end draft beside Bowers. Just bought a three-in-out trucker hat would love one in black. If you were in the Packers' front office, what position would you look to draft

in the first round? Well, they've invested, it feels like, a ton of picks in the last several years on defense, right? I mean, they got first rounders at every level. Now, you know, the Bactari situation is less than ideal.

I always lean, and this comes from watching what the Eagles did forever, and then watching Andy. I don't think you can ever go wrong once you have a quarterback. Now, we'll see if Jordan sustains this level of play, but you're not drafting a quarterback in the first round. I don't think you can never go wrong with the offensive or defensive lines. That's always what I would do. You clearly don't need wide receivers or tight ends.

Your offensive firepower is loaded, so it's a really good wide receiver draft, which is awesome for you because you don't need a wide receiver. So if four guys and five quarterbacks go before you draft, that's nine players, right, pushing down all these other guys that you wouldn't want. Offensive or defensive linemen, maybe a corner. There's no better position in the NFL than when you got a quarterback. Yeah, we're not messing with it.

Not our priority. I noticed a great topic on the Rich Eisen Show during the football season regarding the NFL's countdown timer. It's known that refs weight a beat after the clock reaches zero before throwing a delay of game penalty flag. Rich and his co-hosts were obviously confused as to why the refs do this in the first place. I believe it's because the NFL doesn't have a millisecond counter by the large second, a la la the NBA. Good point. I think the NFL should add the millisecond counter so fans understand what's happening.

They also suggest adding a big-ass buzzer that goes off when the clock hits zero, and I completely agree with this idea because it takes the guesswork out of the refs' hands. The only issue is you need some sort of camera fixed on the center's hands, which doesn't seem feasible. The buzzer in the NBA, I would say the court is so much smaller. Everyone is in a condensed area. It's pretty clear.

In the NFL, the road team, if the crowd was loud, I don't know if the buzzer would quite work. The millisecond thing, not a terrible idea. Actually, the first, I've never heard anyone even bring that up, but it makes a lot of sense. It makes a ton of sense. Is it really that big a deal of what's happening now? It's pretty well known.

You get like, I don't know, less than a quarter of a second once it hits double zero. maybe 0.1.5. I mean, you don't get much time. I don't think it's that big a deal. I really don't. It's one of those things if you're betting on or your team on either side where you're either heart drops or you scream at the TV. Does anyone honestly, like, if they don't change that, I don't think anything's going to change. So my first reaction, don't change anything. Second, the millisecond thing makes some sense. Third, the buzzer.

I think that sounds good in a boardroom when we're all bullshitting about it. In reality, I don't think the execution is possible. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some

retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kier Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations. that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit are armored? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with.

And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed human.