The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - A.I. Legacy Questions; NCAA Regional Bubble Viability; 'Three Ring Circus' Author Jeff Pearlman Goes Inside Shaq/Kobe Lakers

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

In this episode, Doug explains why he doesn't think Allen Iverson's legacy is above questioning and the viability of college hoop regional bubbles to get through the season. Author Jeff Pearlman joins the pod to discuss his new book 'Three Ring Circus' which gives an unprecedented inside look at the Shaq/Kobe Lakers dynasty. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast.

For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Remember all those big dreams used to have? And then life made other plans. With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back.

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Visit ATT.com slash hypergick for details. Hey, welcome in to the all-new, all-ball. Your boy, Doug Gottlieb here. And this is, the playoffs have been awesome to watch. We have an interview this week with Jeff Perlman, who first he authored Showtime, which is a look back at the Showtime Lakers. and anybody like me who grew up in Southern California in the 80s, like that was an awesome book.

Well, he's got a new one on the Lakers and the Three Pete with Kobe and Shaq. It's called Three Ring Circus, appropriately named. We'll get to Jeff Perlman momentarily. I know that when Iverson was on the All That Smoke, Whatever podcast, and I saw this column which was treated out by Jason Whitlock, and I thought it was fascinating. He said, no one wants to blame the answer. We never do.

He reminds us of our own shortcomings and failures. This is from 2009. In the pantheon of media cuddled, overhyped professional basketball players, Alan Iverson reign supreme. At least Charles Barkley wanted to win, Carl Malone and John Stocklin tried to win. Patrick Ewing, like Barclay, Malone, Stocklin was cursed

by the misfortune of being great at the same time Michael Jordan was otherworldly. Alan Iverson has no such excuse. He arrived at the end of Air Jordan's rulership as Isaiah, as Isaiah was the bridge between magic and bird and the Jordan eras. Iverson was supposed to transition us from Jordan to Kobe Shack, despite what Averson's media apologists write and say, the answer was an underachiever on and off the court. And you know what?

I read it and I agree with it. And I don't know if I agree that he would have won multiple championships like Isaiah Thomas, but there's a couple of these guys in basketball. I think Carmel is one of them. I think Alan Iverson's one of them. them that were spectacular Tracy McGrady is one of them. I'm not arguing that they weren't great basketball players. I don't know about, and we're going to talk with Jeff Promen about Shaquille Anil. Because Shaq, you know, I moved to Southern California because my dad was Tex Winner's assistant.

And Tex, of course, was the architect of the triangle with the Bulls and with the Lakers. And what he told us, I'll never forget was he told me, he said, look, Shaq is an unbelievable guy. you know he takes care of the equipment manager bought him a truck you know Joe Crispin was on the team he he told he flew Joe Crispin's family out to to Matt uh not to Honolulu to watch his first preseason game with the Lakers like he does great things but he was about being Shaq not being the greatest player ever like

you can look at Shaq and say Shaq's you know my favorite big guy my favorite personality whatever I do look at Shaq and think man he didn't necessarily necessarily achieve all that his potential allowed him to, which is the interesting part about Kobe. I think Kobe achieved everything that his body could allow him to do. Like, I don't know if Kobe was as athletically gifted as Tracy McGrady. Definitely not as much as Michael Jordan. Didn't have as quick a first step, wasn't as explosive a jumper, but he worked and got

everything out of his body that he ever could. Hiverson and Mello, to me, Stryka said, like, we make excuses for them. the practice thing I mean I love how hypocritical we are we make fun of the practice thing and the practice rant and yet we all talk about Larry Bird's work ethic

Magic Johnson's work ethic Michael Jordan's work ethic LeBron James work like these guys they all practice and Iverson as good as Iverson was the reality to Iverson was you didn't know what you're going to get and he may have played hard

but practicing hard and being a good and what you do for your rest that'll help you shoot a better percentage. That'll help you be more locked in. I watched Iverson, I mean, I played against him in college. And I tweet out some of those, he wasn't a high percentage shooter. He's a high volume guy. He didn't one year, I think he had a great year passing, but he wasn't a great passer.

He could really score. He's really explosive. But I mean, you compare him to nowadays player. He just, he wasn't, he was a high volume, low percentage guy. And the reason that these guys, the real. reason that Jamal Murray is making these tremendously difficult shots is, they have great work ethic. You don't know shooter is born. You can tell me if Steph Curry is born in a gym, right?

But he had to get the shots up in order to develop into one of the great shooters in the history of the sport. Same thing with Clay Thompson. The zip code might be different, but the game is still the same. You can or cannot make shots and you make shots, you know, do you have to have form? Sure. Do you have to have the strength? Sure. But you got to work.

and I'm telling you like we're watching, I'm watching Jamal Murray and I'm blown away. That dude, and I'm going to call him a kid because now I'm getting to be an old man. Like that kid can go. And he's gotten better, which means during the time from the shutdown until we started playing,

and then probably even since they started playing, I'm guessing that guy's work ethic is insane because the shots he makes, he takes with a great amount of confidence and that confidence comes from doing the work to make you believe that you can make it. So, you know, I understand that we have this infatuation with Mello, but as good as Mello was, and he was a great score,

probably the best three-level score in the NBA for about a four or five-year period. He was not a winner. One reason was he didn't defend. Second reason was he wasn't in great shape. And I think both were because he didn't take care of himself in the off-season. Now he does. Now it's too late. Now it's too late.

So it's not that I don't respect their talents. It's, I think, so many. who have achieved even more may not have that talent, but they worked harder. They put in more to their body, to their mental game, and then to their practice. And you're watching a guy like a Jamal Murray just explode on the scene. Let me go through a couple of these other things going on. I told you we talked about the college basketball bubbles. Chris Mack has committed to joining me, a couple of other big pods upcoming here on the All Ball podcast.

but look, I'm excited about kind of these pods with games. It's one of those things that I've long thought would be a great idea. And we kind of have with the preseason tournaments or now they're non-conference tournaments, whatever. But it's just the idea of like, did you guys ever have those football or basketball festivals when your kids? I like it. Like, you know, you get four, eight teams in a bubble.

Everybody plays everybody. you get a chance to really, really work on your stuff. Like it's about the celebration of the sport. It's about teams getting better. And I don't know if the wins and losses should be as important. Look, if you lose every game in these bubbles, then yeah, it's important. But I think you get a chance to play against more local teams. There wouldn't be as much travel.

I just, I like these ideas. I know it's a tremendous scramble. A lot of college coaches listen to this podcast. The scramble to fix your schedule is, insane. I saw Mike Boyton, who you should download our podcast with Mike Boyden. It's really, really good. I mean, just a fascinating guy. Great personal story growing up in New York City as a tremendous point guard made his way down to South Carolina. And of course, has established himself as a tremendous, tremendous recruiter and head coach at Oklahoma State. They're going to have

Kate Cunningham this year, number one prospect, but not going to be able, as of now, to play in the NCAA tournament. Still, he did a kind of like a mock press conference. We're like, we don't know when we're playing or where we're playing. We just know that there'll be a college basketball season. That's how everybody feels. But I love these little pods and the chance to play a bunch of games and just go like old AAU style. Go to the hotel, place video games, go down and hoop and do it every day. And I think moving the season back to where it starts at Thanksgiving time, so you're not missing class. I think that's awesome. Thanksgiving, Christmas break, and then we come out of it, students get back. Now let's get to conference play. And conference play

is what should matter most. What should matter most. In regards to the NBA bubble, it's obviously far more detrimental in terms of mental health of some of these guys. Some of them are struggling. But I think it's fascinating the development of draft picks. Look at what Denver is doing.

Look at the culture that they're building and their ability to do it with their own draft picks. Jamal Murray, Yokic, now Michael Porter Jr. Obviously, Gary Harris. Like those are guys to be able to draft and develop. That speaks to a really good culture. That speaks to the players themselves have to buy into it,

but also to the coaching staff understanding what it's going to be. That's going to be the future of most mid-sized to small markets. That's why you're seeing so many of these recruiting gurus leave their job and go to the NBA to be their amateur basketball guru. That's the future of the sport is you're going to have to draft guys really, really young and develop them, protect them, and hope they fit into your style. All right, one last thing before we get to Jeff Perlman. I do want to talk about the Maria Taylor tweet.

You can check on my Twitter feed and I think my IG feed. And I've said this before and I'll say it again. In all honesty, my issue isn't with Maria Taylor as a studio host. I think she's good. And I think she does a good job of leading a discussion, which is what you do in your studio host. my issue is with we just kind of hand out votes to people because they're around the league and it's fascinating you know there's on some level in me there's the former player

not an NBA player and I understand you're like well do you have to play in the NBA? No but I did play professional basketball for three years and played games in 10 different countries played with three different teams plus I played in I think five different minor leagues and played the NBA summer league like there's a difference in that level of experience I would think plus I've covered it for 20 years much like Doris Burke who didn't play in the league didn't play men's basketball

obviously played in coach but she's covered basketball enough that I would say that's the type of person I'd like to judge who's you know she calls 50 games a year she can talk to any GM and any coach she can form her own opinion like all of those things she's well-rounded enough and that's what

her job calls on her ability to make basketball decisions like who the top 15 players are in the league. Now, look, most of us could do it. And I think Marie Taylor probably just made a mistake. And that mistake was probably because she's doing too much. And maybe she didn't at the time know, like, hey, this actually affects guys' paychecks. Because Supermax and other contracts are based upon these awards. So with that in mind, I actually think what I said was in relation to what, like, it's the same thing as LeBron saying. How can 16 people vote me the MVP elite?

Don't you know what I've done with this team? Haven't you seen the things I've done that don't show up in the stat column? And the answer is no, because lots of people who talk about basketball don't actually know basketball. You know that. I know that. You watch you're like, oh, man. Right. So look, if you're listening, and I hate when people do this, right?

They always say, well, like, if you took it as, well, that's not apologizing. because I don't actually think I said anything wrong that the problem is we're in a time where everybody's hypersensitive. I didn't even kind of realize Maria Taylor had been criticized previously. I have nothing in terms of criticism for our actual work. Zero. She's good. She's a host.

When she does sideline for the college game day or for football, she's good. And that's a hard job. I've done it a couple of times. It's not actually easy to do it well. and I think you provide something in terms of content, which is needed for the broadcast. That said, she did just start covering the NBA, so she doesn't have the chops per se.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross

double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay And I'm Alex English Each episode

We pick it here unpack what went down And try to make sense of how we survived it Including a recent episode With Mark Lamont Hill Waxing all about crack In the 80s

To be clear 84 was big to me Not just because of crack I'm down to talk about crack On day But just so y'all know At this point Mark this is the second episode

Where we've discussed Crack So I'm starting to see There's a through line We also have AIDS On the table right now So Thank you for finishing

that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests,

I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different. different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. And even if she did, like, when you're a studio host, that's not really what your job entails. You're supposed to lead a discussion. You're supposed to listen. You're supposed to re-tee people, set them up, call the highlight, and let the analysts analyze. Voting for the all-NBA team is an analyst job, is an opinion job, and those aren't her jobs. Not because she's a woman, not because she's a black woman, but because she's a host.

And not having the depth of contacts, wherewithal, having not even been to these NBA games because of the setup for COVID, we're asking her to do something to which she doesn't have a great connection to, even if she loves the sport and watches the sport and talks about the sport on a nightly basis. I think that's reasonable. What's unreasonable is how we turn it into something about sexism and racism, which it is not. It's actually the opposite of it, because I would say the same thing about Adam Zucker at CBS talking about the SEC, and Adam's a great friend of mine. I'd say that about anybody who would replace her until you've been there a long time. And even then, it's really more of an analyst job. All right, let's welcome him in. He's the author of

of gunslinger, of football for a buck, of sweetness, the story of Walter Payton, the rocket that fell to Earth, the bad guys won. Man, he's got so many fantastic books. Showtime was won as well, and his newest book is Three Rings Circus. He's a New York Times bestselling award-winning author. He's Jeff Perlman. He joins us on the All Ball podcast. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com.

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Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. on Fox Sports Radio in the I Heart Radio app.

The book is Three Rings Circus. Kobe, Shaq, Phil, and the crazy years of the Laker Dynasty award-winning author, Jeff Perlman, kind of to spend some time with this. And Jeff, you've done the Showtime book, okay? It's a great one. Now you do the three, now you do the Kobe's Shack years. Compare and contrast in terms of what the field is like going back and looking at each team. So I feel like because I'm a child of the 80s, there's a level of nostalgia for magic and cream that will never be matched for me as far as being a kid in New York growing up and watching, seeing them, you know, the CBS cameras fall into the forum and you see the palm trees and the Laker girls like that is, that was for me was, you know, just love at first sight.

But I would say the characters here are just as profound. I don't think you'll ever have a character to write about who's as interesting as Kobe Bryant. and I don't think you'll have another characters this is interesting as Shaquio O'Neal. So if you're just taking, like I find both of them much more interesting and compelling characters oddly than Magic Johnson. So that was kind of a gift, to be honest. The characters of this dynasty are awesome.

That's amazing. To be more colorful and interesting than Magic Johnson, considering the era and everything we know and learn from your last book about the Lakers. What was the process like of writing about Kobe, especially now with him unfortunately passing. And the view of, like, I hope that people understand it's not just because of the plane crash. Like our worldview of Kobe Bryant changed dramatically in the past three or four years,

even before his untimely death. What's it like to go back and try and give a snapshot of what he was like back then? So first of all, it's very weird. Like, it's weird to be promoting a book during this time. It's weird to be talking about it. I actually finished the book before he died. So I was done with it, and I was actually sitting in a coffee shop when someone texted me, a friend texted me, and wrote,

not sure if you heard Kobe Bryant reports are dead, blew my mind, depressed, sad, everything. And then after, obviously, you know, you have to move on and you sort of think, what am I supposed to do here? Because the book, 96-0-4, it's not that warm. I mean, there are warm moments of Kobe Bryant, but he was difficult. I mean, you know that. He was difficult, factually.

And there's a whole Ego, Colorado thing that hangs over the whole time period. So what I did is I went back, I wrote an author's note. The book was dumb, but they let me put it basically a three-page author's note. And the point I really tried to make and that I believe in is, you know, who someone is at 25 isn't who they are at 41. Yeah. And we almost all, if you judge any of us at that age, we were kind of punked and we were cocky and we were whatever. And then you get older and you have kids and you have your own sports career, or whatever career ends, and you learn.

And I just, I really do. It's super important for me that people know this is a snapshot of time. It is not who he was when he died. He was a different person and he evolved a lot in his life. Well, I mean, like, look, I'm, I'm glad you did that. Secondly, you're right. I mean, I've talked about this a lot of my show. As he, we were about the same age.

We became friends late in his career. Our daughters went to the same school. And I think, you know, he changed several times. during his life, as we all do and matured in different ways, right? He went from early on in his NBA life trying to talk, walk everything like Michael Jordan. Then he went through that kind of, I'm hood phase, right? That's when he had like a rap album. He was trying to be a kid from the hood, which wasn't really him and didn't feel authentic.

And then he started to find, then after Shaq left and he wanted to be traded, then he started to be kind of more of, I felt like who he really was, a much more refined husband and father after Eagle County, Colorado. He was still difficult. He was just different. And then after retirement, he became this kind of profound thinker, philosopher, and shareer of so much knowledge. But he was so different.

And I think he's one of those guys that we've seen evolve before our very eyes. Like we met him as a 17-year-old kid, and he died all during our lifetime. And I think that's why he's such an interesting character. I actually think a lot of ways Kobe Bryant is the example of especially early Kobe Ryan. Why how you see all the parent here hiring their tutors and making their kids play one sport year-round and I'm going to turn you into blank.

You're going to be an NFL quarterback. You're going to be how toxic that can be and how a kid needs to have driving lessons and a kid needs to ask someone out and get rejected and a kid needs to get bad grades in school and have to bounce back and a kid needs to have the keys taken off. Like, you need those development mental moments. You do. You can't just be programmed to be something. And the thing that Kobe Bryant had, yes, it made him a great basketball player.

That is undeniable. But his inability to relate with teammates. I mean, I read about this in a book. He shows up for his first camp with the Lakers in Hawaii. All the players are introducing themselves. And his introduction is, my name's Kobe Bryant. No one here is going to punk me. Like that is what he thought was the appropriate introduction, age 18,

to Los Angeles Lakers. There are moments in his career. where when, you know, there was one time when Shaq took everyone out for dinner, everyone on the team after dinner at a fancy seafood restaurant. Kobe says, no, I'm not going to go. It shows up a half hour later with a book and get the table for one. They're just looking at Kobe. He got married and Dana Pointe.

None of his teammates were invited. Most of his teammates didn't know he was getting married, and a lot of them didn't know he was even dating. So he just had this one. I'll tell you one more thing. That 0-304 season when Car Malone is there. Yeah. Someone told me this one story.

He was interviewing Car Malone, and it's about to be Thanksgiving. next day, Thanksgiving, or two days later, and Kobe is walking out of the locker. And Carmelone says to the reporter, hold on one second, hold on. He goes, hey, young Buck, come over here, and he signals for Kobe to come over. And he whisper somethings to Kobe's ear, and he says, hey, have a good Thanksgiving. Have a good Thanksgiving to all his teammates. Like Carmelon had to tell him, when you leave in your position where you are in this team,

you have to be gracious and you need to wish these people all good Thanksgiving. There's little things like that. He did not develop into much later in life. when you and I probably got that when we were 16 and your mom says, hey, if you leave the house, say happy Thanksgiving to your aunt. Yeah. Or things that you're learning in college. I'm a proponent of college basketball teaching guys about so many more things that they may eventually learn,

but there's a bit of an arrested development there when they go right from high school to the pros. What about Shaq? I mean, he is both literally and figuratively bigger than life. and the late Tex winner was I moved to California because my dad was Tex winner's assistant in Long Beach State and so when he's with the Bulls

he told me things about Jordan and when he was with the Lakers he would tell me that Shaq could have been the greatest big guy ever but he just wanted to be Shaq and he was okay with that I've heard so many incredible things about what type of human he is

what type of teammate he is but again those are a couple more surface area stuff from my limited time and working out with the team playing Summer League with them what was he really like? See, I actually think Tech winner is right.

He could have been the greatest, you know, arguably the greatest center ever. But I don't think it's wrong what happened. Like, he did want to be Shaq. He wanted to do albums.

He wanted to be in movies. He wanted to, he wanted to spend his off seasons in his pool in Orlando, smoking cigars, hanging out with friends, whatever. You know,

like he wanted, he was 27 years old making millions of dollars to play a game, and he wanted to relax. And I just, I get the criticism. I really do.

And it drove Kobe crazy that this guy was not a, quote, unquote, harder worker. He was never going to be the guy who was in the gym shooting 5,000 jumpers. He was never going to be the guy who's like, if I don't shoot 80% from the free throw line this year, my season's a failure. He just wasn't that guy. But I think he enjoyed the journey. I think he really enjoyed the journey. I think he enjoyed the journey far more than Kobe enjoyed the journey. And maybe that's okay.

And maybe the fact that he's just the top five all-time NBA Center instead of the greatest of all-time. But he had a really good time doing it. in the grand scheme of life is more valuable than all of us talking on sports talk radio, how great, how Shaq is a greatest center of all time. That's, that's probably very, very, very accurate. We all want guys to live up to something that we think they should want to live up to. That doesn't mean it fulfills him. Doesn't mean it fills up his personal cup.

You mentioned Carl Malone. There was also Gary Payton on that team. You had Phil Jackson. That was the team that didn't work. I mean, I know they had injuries and people downplay the injuries as a factor, but was it simply the infighting between Kobe and Shaq and a marriage that had to end? You know, it's so funny.

When I was working on the book, I sat down with Jeannie Bus. And I've interviewed here a bunch over the years. I love Jeannie Bus. Great. And I said to her exactly what you just said to me. I was like, why did that year not work? And she said to me kind of angrily, she's like, when does it become not work

when you make the NBA Finers? And she's like, when does that, when is that a failure? Like we made the NBA Finers. I cannot say that year is a total failure. And I do think there's something to be said for that. That being said, there were just so many. First of all, Peyton should not have been running a triangle. He should have been a point card in a triangle offensive.

It should have been Derek Fisher. Bill Jackson never really wanted him running the point. They brought him in anyway. Malone was 40, but he was still pretty good. Who brought in Gary Payton? That was a Jim Busch directive. That wasn't even Jerry Bus. It was the suggestion in Will of Jim Bus.

And Peyton was okay that year. No, but that's not. But if you, and this is, and I'll talk about this a little later in the pod. I mean, in the triangle, you can't really be a real dominant ball handling point guard and be effective in the triangle. It is, by design, that's not what it's for. You have to be able to play off the basketball as much as with the basketball. And there are some things that he does, you know, in terms of posting up and isolations that are good, but they already had Shaq. They already had Kobe for that. And so, yeah, it was one of those great player bad fit and

at a weird time in his career when he had to adjust to having a role as opposed to being the guy. And it's interesting because Derek Fisher was sort of the ideal triangle point card. Right. Didn't need to score, could score, more than happy to pass the ball. He was a great triangle point card. But Gary Payton was his sexy furniture in the other house, you know, and they brought him in. So that was bad. Shaq definitely was not...

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all. embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

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to do a little kill. Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS. on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year

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Great shape. He wanted his contract renegotiated. That was at the preseason when he ran past Jerry Bosch during a preseason game and yelled pay me. while doing the money sign with his hands. Kobe was about to be a free agent and would not play with Shaq anymore. Like it was out of the question about playing with Shaq anymore. Was very, very, very, very tempted to go to the Clippers. At one point during a game against the Clippers said to Coach Mike Dunley

during a timeout, get me out of here. Jerry Bust didn't know what to do with Phil Jackson. You really didn't want to bring him back. Of course, Phil was dating Jeannie Bus at the same time. And Jeannie obviously wants him back, but she's not going to let that interfere with the business decisions. So all this mess is going on, they put. played Detroit in the finals, Detroit is just a better team at that point.

You know, people say, oh, Maloney, Detroit is a better team. Detroit was as well-oiled a machine you'll ever see in a finals, considering they had no superstars of that team. They were ridiculous, and they beat them in five, and as soon as game five is over, and Kareem Rush told me, Kobe's backup back then told me,

they had a little party after the game five loss, thrown by Jerry Buss for the players, and Kobe walks in, and he walks up to Kreme Rush, and he says, I'm never playing with that M. ever again. And he's talking about Shaq. And Jerry Bus walks into that meeting as well, into that party as well.

Shaq is there with his wife. Jerry Bus walks right past Shaq and his wife and talks to Kobe and never says a word to Shaq, and Shaq said he knew who was done. Why? Why was it done? Why did it, why was it, why was it get to that point? How do you, why?

Right? Like, I mean, was it, was it, was it Colorado? And what Kobe said about Shaq? you know, was it how Shaq was and how everybody loves Shaq and Kobe was a love-hate thing at that point in time in L.A.? Why? I honestly think from the very, very time he arrived in the NBA, Kobe Bryant expected to be Michael Jordan.

Yeah. That was his model. He expected to be Mike. And it's funny, the Nets almost drafted him in number eight and Calipari backed out at the last second. And I think if he goes to the Nets, and that was the team with like Ed O'Bannon and Khalid Reeves and, like, Ginkadare, you know, they were terrible. Yeah, Stinka.

probably averaging 25 as a rookie shooting 32% and having these years of just joy scoring for bad teams. And I think a part of him always wanted that, to be honest. He wanted to win, obviously, desperately, but he needed to be the focal point. He just needed to be the focal point. It was something in him, but I cannot be the number two. I'm not going to be the number two.

This is not my feet in basketball, and he was just done it. He found Shaq dismissive. He hated Shaq's lack of work ethic. He couldn't understand how this guy couldn't hit a frequent three-throw. And after a while, it just... And there was that moment, you're right. Like, Kobe kind of ratted out Shaq to the detectives in Colorado.

And then, you know, there are just moments throughout this. Oh, when they report to training camp and Kobe isn't there yet. And the reporter asked Shaq, are you disappointed not having your team here? And his response is, my team is here. Just all of these blows one after another. It was, you know, you could not repair it. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1-800 Flowers.com is your ultimate birth.

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As I pointed out earlier, you wrote the book Showtime. obviously, I mean, Pat Riley, and Riley even now, like Riley's a little bit like Kobe, how we view Riley now as opposed to Riley back then, very, very different, right? Yeah. What was Phil Jackson like? Obviously empowered, not just by what he did with the Bulls and the six titles,

but the fact that nobody could figure out Shaq and Kobe, right? Many had tried, you know, Del Harris had famously failed. He does figure it out what was Phil Jackson like with this team? I would say in Dale Harris's defense. I'm not saying it would have worked with him. I don't think it would have, but he was given Nick Van Axel's his point card. That was a pretty tough thing to deal with for a coach of his ilk. And then Kurt Rambus comes in.

You know, Rambus got it off to a really good start, but really babyed Kobe and that drove Shaq Crazy. And the thing about Phil Jackson coming in, it sounds coigny and it sounds simple, but it's true. He shows up with the six rings, and he shows up having done it with Jordan. And he just arrives with this largeness of the... other two coaches did not have.

And you had to listen to him, and you had to respect him, and he had the resume, and he had text winner with him. It was the architect of the triangle, and you had to listen to these guys. And the other thing he did really well, if he basically had deputies in the locker room, you know, like, in the same way with Donald Harper in Chicago, why it worked as he was willing to make allowances and kind of keep a hands-off approach. In L.A., you know, hey, Ron Harper, you know, hey, Brian Shaw,

hey, you know, any of these guys, J.R. Reid, whoever, I'm not Jaree, but you know, John Sally, I need you guys to help me out. So can you handle this? I need you guys. Tell me what the tone is in this locker room. He didn't have the babysit every day. He didn't have this heavy hand with them. He actually didn't.

He had a very light hand with them. He just kind of let it work out. And sometimes if Shaq and Kobe were bickering, he would just let it go. He assumed it would kind of help that maybe that fire would actually spread a little bit and it would get them going. And when he needed to have these behind closed-door meetings, he had a famous one with Rick Fox and Shaq. where he asked him in that last season,

can we win with Kobe? And Shaq's answer was no. And Rick Fox wasn't sure. And he didn't really have a choice. He had to keep going with him. But he was willing to do that. He was really perfect for that team while it lasted. One story that did not make the book that you wish would have.

Oh, man. I mean, the one thing I didn't really get into that I kind of regret, just because I've been asked about it a bunch of times, I didn't really get that much on it, is the whole Carmelone Kobe's wife. Yeah, Vanessa. Not looking for, not looking for, like, gossipy, nonsense. But I don't know.

A lot of people seem to think that had a bigger impact than I did. And now I'm asked about it all the time, and I'm kind of like, yeah, I didn't. I just didn't go down that road. You know, there are some way roads you can go down. But it's kind of intriguing. And Carmelone's entire relationship with Kobe is really because he was another guy. I'm going to mentor Kobe. I'm going to help Kobe.

Kobe's going to listen to me. And he was another guy who kind of tuned out Caramalone. Okay. You mentioned Gary Payton. What was he like during this entire thing? You know what's funny about Gary Payton? So I spent a lot of time with Delani McCoy, former UCLA player, then Sonic, then Laker.

Gary Payton could be ruinous. You probably know. I mean, Gary Payton could be ruinous to teammates. And as mean as a snake, like as mean as you could be, and cruel. Delani McCoy told me, Gary Payton was a kind of guy who you show up and you're excited because you have a new watch. And you show your teammates, hey, look at this new Rolex. My wife, Bobby, isn't it amazing?

And Gary Payton was a guy who had to say, oh, yeah, well, my watch is Mike. That's who he can never be that guy. And he showed up with the Lakers. And actually, the funny thing is he sort of stepped out aside a little bit. I think it was weird for him to be in a position where he was not the marquee and he wasn't going to be the loudest guy in the room. He kind of set that aside to the Lakers, but he grew very frustrated by the triangle. And if you watch the finals, if you rewatch it, I mean, he got destroyed defensively in that finals. Just destroyed.

At one point, he was guarding Chauncey Billups. And during a practice, Kobe said to Phil Jackson out loud in front of the team, why don't you switch? Why don't you switch so I'm guarding Chauncey? And Joe Jackson didn't do it. And later on, Kobe admitted to him. I was just testing to see if Gary Payton would protest. and he didn't. And that was a moment

where he actually lost a little respect for Gary Baden. Last thing. Doing both books, this team was more vivid, right? The personalities were sharper or brighter. But which do you think should go down as historically better, from your perspective?

Oh, I think the magic Korean years. I do think if you look all around. You know, like the number three guy on these teams is always Glenn Rice or Eddie. Jones. The number three guy in those teams are James Worthy. And then you have Jamal Will. Yeah. Well, you had, I mean, Michael

Thompson came out of Michael Cooper's best defense. It was unbelievable. Yeah, you don't you don't have to tell. All right, that probably wasn't the greatest question. All right, here's, here's one more. You mentioned Glenn Rice, right? You remember Glenn Rice's wife complained openly about his role.

He was only with the Lakers for one championship and then he was gone. That was kind of fascinating to me that Phil started to exert his power. Like there was all of this stuff working at once, which makes it even more fascinating. It was Phil, exerting power, and now making decisions

with personnel and arguing about personnel. It was Kobe and Shaq. It was, you know, it was some of these guys at the end of the road. It was the departure of Derek Fisher. Like, there was, there was a lot. Yeah. It's really funny. I talked to Glenn Rice for the book. And I was like, when your wife

talked to Bill Plasky from the L.A. Times, and he's like, God, that was the worst. He's like, wasn't that the worst? He was like, wasn't that the worst? He was mortified. You know, because they were on the road. It was the finals. And there's this column that just comes out about Glenn Rice's wife,

saying that Phil never liked him, and he was kind of undermining her, undermining him and the whole thing. And Glenn Rice is just trying to make it get on with his life and play basketball. He said it was one of the most embarrassing sort of moments of his career was that. And it definitely did not help his stay in L.A. at all. It made much shorter. Well, Jeff, you've done a lot of great things. here's my here's my my ask to you i want to read the book i want to read the book you've given us a

reason everybody a reason to go out and buy it right now i want to read the book go through it uh and then and then talk through some of these stories and do this again is that okay that be great absolutely i'd love to jeff proman awesome stuff thanks for joining us all right thank you so much be sure to catch the live edition of the doug godlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m eastern noon Pacific. All right, thanks, Jeff. Again, you can pick up three-ring circus. You can order online at Jeff Perlman.com, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, wherever you pick up books, my thanks. And I encourage you to go out and if you like to read or if you do audiobooks, his stuff is fantastic. Fantastic.

I'll leave you with this as we move on to the NBA finals. I'm intrigued by LeBron and what happens and how quickly they can close out the Denver Nuggets. They're the favorites to win. They match up better with the heat than they do. Even though the heat have Andre Godala, I just Iggy's age and he can't score. Jimmy Butler could be a nuisance, but I don't think that the heat match up terribly well with the Lakers. The fear with the Lakers is the longer the Nuggets series goes,

the more likely you're going to have LeBron at times being fatigued. Or maybe get hurt. One of their guys get hurt. They're an older team. They've benefited from, I think when their kids showed up, it re-energized them. I think when they had the protest, they missed two games, that game, and then five-game series, whereas they've played the last two opponents, Rockets and Now, Nuggets are both seven-game series teams. They've been the fresher team.

The longer it goes, the more likely you have for a LeBron to tire. And if LeBron doesn't have the right energy, that's when the Lakers don't look right. All right, my thanks to Jeff Perlman for joining us, for you for downloaded, and subscribing and rating this podcast. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more.

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quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group

perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we

survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite office. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.