The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - All-In NCAA Tourney Argument; Guest: Former Belmont HC Rick Byrd on College HOF Selection, Program Building, NAIA to DI Jump, Near Duke Tourney Upset

Episode Date: December 2, 2020

In this episode, Doug gives some early takes on the college hoops season and makes the case for letting every team into the NCAA Tournament. This week's guest is legendary former Belmont Head Coach Rick Byrd, who discusses his recent College Basketball Hall of Fame selection, growing up as the son of a Tennessee sports writer covering the Vols, his path into coaching, building Belmont from an NAIA program to a consistent Division I tournament team, battles with Nashville rival Lipscomb University, and how almost upsetting Duke as a 15 seed in the 2008 tournament helped jumpstart the program. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Remember all those big dreams used to have? And then life made other plans. With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back.

Start your own business or commit to van life with a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Now, you could win the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode four-by-four that was, We have enter the Dan Patrick show Ultimate Camping Rigs Sweepstakes. To enter, get official rules. Visit Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com. Have to do it by February 2nd for your chance to win. Are you ready for the big day? Not your big day, her big day. Valentine's Day. If not, you better rush to FTT.com to order early and save on a winning combination of flowers and gifts for Monday, February 14th.

Bold blooms and gifts are the perfect way to celebrate the one who caught your heart. So go to FDD.com and save 15% through February 14th with Code Crush 15 on fresh. Flores delivered flowers when you order early. See website for details. FTD. Give with meaning. Hey, what I'm welcome in, Doug Gottlieb, and this is the all-new all ball. What a great, great pod we have for you. The guy who I've come to respect for years with the success they had at Belmont is Rick Bird,

long time legendary head coach retired a year and a half ago. We actually had his replacement, Casey on about a year ago on the pod. And I thought, you know, Coach Bird just got announced something I knew was happening, but into this year's class to the College Basketball Hall of Fame. I've gotten to do that ceremony seven times. Hopefully I'll get to do it next year. There is an induction ceremony this year. Anyway, I just reached out and said, hey, I'd love to have you on and tell your story.

He got back to me that moment, said, let's do it. And we got that for you. I've coming in a couple of moments. Just a quick reminder, we appreciate anybody who downloads this. It's pretty awesome. Download, subscribe, and rate us. If you write a little review, I don't know, I'm told that it helps the pot. And the numbers have been spectacular of late.

We had over 250,000 people download the second part of the Frank Martin. For 200,000 people download the Ron Baker. We're just, it was growing. and the more we grow, the better the guests are, obviously a little bit more money for your boy. All that stuff is good. So download, subscribe, rate, and write a review. And even if the review stinks, I mean, I prefer the review is good, but even if the review stinks. You know what's crazy about this college basketball season that started so far is I think I'm already getting men I'm wrong about something.

I'll get to that a moment. And we're almost done with the NBA off season. The NBA like just ended a week ago, it felt like, right? Although some guys haven't played games since February. I mean, that's weird, isn't it? The whole thing is weird. Here's the thing that I would say that I'm wrong about in college basketball. I think we should probably let everybody in the tournament.

And I know what you're saying, oh, here we go, Snowflake, some sort of participation award. What about the Ivy League that's not having a season? It sucks to be you. That's actually my answer to those. But the thing is this, that what we've always done is this mathematical calculation over this game and this win and that win and the others. Like, do you have any idea how hard it is to understand who's any good? Ohio, you nearly beat Illinois.

Illinois previous to that has looked completely and utterly unbeatable. Now, I would like to think it's because Ohio is pretty good. Bull's doing a good job over there and Illinois is tough. But I also, like, wasn't that Illinois's third game in three days? And Ohio Hughes as well. And you take in all the different aspects of course. quarantine and travel and where you're staying and how you have to isolate yourself from the rest of the world, like all of those things.

What we're going to know generally, we generally know like Gonzaga's awesome. I don't think anybody's going to argue with that one. I think Baylor, if they're healthy, they're going to be really, really good. Like the teams that we thought are going to be good are going to Illinois is going to be really good. Iowa can really score. I don't know if they can stop anybody, but they can really score. Wisconsin should be very good. You go through Michigan State, they look men versus boys.

man, Notre Dame did not look like they had the horses for that fight. But what you can't tell is that there's so many. And I know you could, like, God, there's all those factors in every game. Yes, yes. And coaches have warned me time and again in the past. Dude, three games and three days when we play in Maui. Three games and three days in Orlando. That's not really representative necessarily of who we are.

We may be trying to work on something. We may be sitting somebody. We may be still figuring ourselves out. Like, that's hard. And then the conference play is some of these conferences games, you're going to go and play a team on back-to-back nights. So is the second game who you really are? Is the first game you're really?

I don't know. Coming around to the idea of everyone getting in the NCAA tournament. Again, probably not going to happen. Not going to happen. As I said, they're not going to happen. But they could change their mind. Why not? Send everybody to take it to Indy and let's figure it out and let's roll.

More basketball? That's good for everybody. Let's welcome in Rick Bird. He's not only the winningest coach at Belmont up until a year and a half ago. He was the only Division I head coach at Belmont. Took over the job when it was an NAA program, and just down the street at Lipscomb, they had won the national title the season before.

How did he get to this journey? How did he find basketball? What type of coach was he? This is my discussion with Rick Bird, the Hall of Fame coach from Belmont. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app.

he was just selected and he'll be inducted next year into the college basketball Hall of Fame something that of the things I get to do seven times I've got to induct people into the college basketball Hall of Fame. So it's something that's near and dear to my heart. Obviously, I love the sport. And I've been able to over the last 20 years really track this gentleman's career. He's the all-time winning is coach obviously at Belmont and he joins us. He's Rick Bird. He joins us here in the All Ball podcast. Coach, let me start with this. Sure.

Where were you when you found out that you were going to the college basketball hall of fame? Gosh, the funny story is, Doug, it's been almost a year ago because the COVID ended up pushing everything back. They were going to announce the class at the Final Four. So they let me know literally probably November, December of last year, sort of so I could get ready and make arrangements to travel to Kansas City and all that stuff. Then when it got canceled, they didn't really know when to announce the class. So short story, I found out a year ago, but I didn't know until a week ago that they were going to announce it on Sunday. Okay, so you're sitting on what is somewhat of a secret, right? Yeah.

So, okay, so how about this? When it was announced, who was the first person to call? Who is the first person to text? Ooh, that's a good one. it was announced during the game the other day, and it was so, and look, Doug,

I'm not on any social media, so I don't know what gets out and when it gets there, but honestly, my first call was from Brad Stevens, but it was the next day. You know, people don't call anymore. You know,

they text and he get a few emails every now and then, but I think my first, my first text was from a former student assistant coach. It's in high school now, And I guess he was on top of it watching the game. Who was that? Matt Meadows, his name, just a kid that came to school to want to learn to be a coach. And that's one of the great things about this business anymore is it just helps so many kids,

even if they're not players, to move into the coaching profession. What did Brad say? Well, we have been friends for quite some time since he was an assistant at Butler and certainly as a head coach. And he's been kind and supportive of me. So the basic stuff, you know, and I tried to steer it away from that subject as soon as I could and talk to him about his summer and all that's going on. But he's, I mean, he's a little younger than me, Doug, but he's kind of my idol, really. I mean, I wish I could have coached like he does. I wish I could have kept my cool and poise like he does or Tony Bennett does.

Every now and then he got away from me. You know, it's amazing. It's, he's been a dear friend of mine. And I agree. like he were at almost the same age, I think he's younger than me. And he's like a mentor, right? Yeah, right.

He has this like fatherly thing to him. He has wisdom. I don't know where you get that. I don't either. And it's interesting because he told me, I said, how do you, how do you do with the NBA? You know, you got these guys that grown men.

Yeah. You know, they got families. They got opinions. They got millions, millions of dollars. And I said, you know, how are you doing the NBA? He said, he said, firm with me. warmth, you know, it's like you're just firm with warmth. That's, that's how I didn't college. That's how you do. Then like I just, I coached kids now. Right now I'm coaching, you know,

six, six, seven, eight and five, six, seven, eight. And I lose my mind sometimes just because I just, we just, I asked you to do very simple things. And I just, I just want you to try and do what I, I, I, I want. And if it doesn't work, it's okay. You know, the ball. I'm not even, you know, I'm not close to the point where I care. If ball goes in, ball doesn't go in. It's just, did you listen to what I had? We've taught you. Did you try and do it?

And if not, did you at least get back on defense to try and make up for your team? And I just like lose what, like, might, you know? So I, he's remarkable. I've had 40 years of basketball camps and I know what you're talking about. It's hurting cats is really what it is. It is. It's the teaching kids is a fast. Okay, so you grew up and you were a basketball player.

You went to your college in Florida, right? But where did you grow up playing basketball? Like, what was your first memories of who? Well, I grew up in Knoxville. My dad was a sports writer for the Knoxville Journal, and his beat was Tennessee basketball. And so I would sell programs when I was, oh, nine or 10 years old. And instead, I could have made more money selling coach probably, but, but when the buzzer went off, start the game, I got to quit selling programs.

And I literally went and sat under the press table at my dad's feet with Ray Mears, the coach at Tennessee, about 10 or 12 feet to the right of me. And maybe Adolf Rup on the other end. and just got to see basketball at that age that close. And I already loved playing it. But it's a story they didn't around anymore. I mean, my backyard was where my goal was. And it started out with grass, and there ended up being at no grass in the backyard, of course,

and all that kind of stuff. It's such a fun game to play. And so that, exposure, coupled with just how great the game is. And I think there's, I don't know what gifts people receive, but if I got any of them, it was kind of like strategy, figuring out how to win,

how to make things work. And I love that part of the game. It's, I'm fascinated by it too, you know, from my dad was a coach. Yeah. And I don't think he looked at it, the game strategic. strategically nearly the way I do. Our brains in a sport we both love, it's just very different. Sure.

You did believe like the first thing you have to do is be able to counter the pressure of a defense, right? And then you have to play as a team, both offensively and defense. The concepts were very, very simple and fundamentals, but in terms of schematics and strategy and finding mismatches and how to create multiple closeouts and like that wasn't something that he did. we just looked at the game differently. I used to go to high school games with him,

and I would play a little game and try and figure out what offense, what continuity offense the team was running. How many possessions would it take me to figure out what they were doing? And, you know, we'd argue. And I'll never forget there's a team, J.W. North, that actually very good high school basketball program produced a bunch of Division I players in Riverside, and we're watching them play modern day in a summer league game,

and they ran a one-four high set into a year, UCLA cut. Yeah. But then it really became flex. Okay. Right. One possession, I was like, that's flex. And he was like, that's not flex.

One four. It's like, one four, that's a USETT's UCLA. I was like, well, where's the post up in the down screen? Well, let's see a couple more. That's what we used to. So what was your dad like? He's obviously when you, when you cover sports, he loves sports. But what was he like?

He was, he was a super humble man. He was a great dad. He never, I don't think he ever yelled one time at one of my games that I played in or never criticized the coach, didn't let me criticize the coach. And he was an old style sports writer, Doug, that was not critical of almost anything. It was not a time. I mean, he flew on the, you know, the charter plane with the team. And, you know, it was different.

It was different back then. And he was really good friends with Ray Mears. Not that he treated them, especially. He just never was critical about anybody. I will tell you a real quick short story. He covered the Tennessee basketball banquet one time back in the 60s. And a young Bob Knight was the speaker. Coach Mears knew him and brought him in to speak.

And he proceeded, of course, to rattle off about women and officials. and sports writers and so on, like you can imagine. At the end of my dad's story about it, he said, last night's speaker was Bob Knight. There's been some very good ones in the past, but last night was not one of them. That was about as critical as he ever got. You know, so my dad actually went to college with Bob Knight.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, so my dad was a walk on at Ohio State. My state, yeah. And Bob Knight was on the varsity. and he used to my dad told me that his his jump shot was known as the blue dart kind of over his head and sixth man yeah and uh i mean he used to go to coach nights uh clinics when he was a young up-and-coming high school coach and then a college coach and he has somewhere in my mom's house there's stacks and stacks of notes that he took and it's very interesting you know the the we start

with brad stevens who i'm sure he's cursed i'm sure he's raised his voice at some point in time but remarkably successful in a completely different style. And like your message can get across the exact same right. It's like the thing we learn involved as people is like, some people don't have to actually raise your voice to get what you want. And yet obviously that was not the style of Bob Knight. Okay, so as a player, as a player, how good were you in high school? I was honorable mention Allstate.

I was a nice little point guard who could. really handle the ball. Tennessee had a player back in the 60s named Danny Schultz, and he was a phenomenal ball hammer and could even do all that ball handling stuff. You may remember that Ray Mears used to do, they had a juggler on a unicycle during warmups. I mean, he was a showman, and Coach Mears was big during practice on ball handling stuff. So I could really do that kind of stuff at one time. But, I mean, I'm 5'8. I thought I was better than I was, didn't have many opportunities,

went to junior college in Florida, where they played in not even a point guard style, and I was lost in the wrong place. Went back to Tennessee and just went to school for two years at the university. And then that's the time when freshmen became eligible. So Tennessee started a junior varsity team instead of having the freshman team. And I played for a year. even as a fourth year college student,

and that got me back in the game, or I don't know where I'd be right now, honestly. And then next year I was a student assistant, but still practiced with varsity. That's Ernie Grunfell Bernard King era. So I practiced against those guys every day. Needless to say, didn't guard either of those guys. But that got me back in it,

and, you know, rest of the story, I'm lucky. Let's go back. Florida Junior College was in Florida. Central Florida Community College in O'Cal. Okay. So you're in O'Cal. They won't remember. No one there will remember when I was there.

It's okay. It's okay. But you do, and every experience positively negatively affects. Like, I'm guessing, just guessing. Okay. I mentioned not running a point card system. I know exactly what you're talking about. My opportunities in the NBA came with the Lakers.

That's the triangle. It's on a point guard system. You have a shooter. The opposite of what I do. And it does, like, in your brain, you start to, when you have players, and granted at Belmont, you're able to recruit your players, right? But sometimes you have players that don't fit your system. You have to decide, do I recruit this kid?

Or now that I have this kid, do I try and change my system to it? And I'm, and sometimes, you know. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the game. and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, This platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations

with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table. right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field. and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing.

And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid?

Because that's two different. intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keer Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. If you're smart and you take in all the information from your life, which you have, I'm sure that in some ways, tell me if I'm wrong, affected you in your coaching that in the back of your mind, you always understood the player, the system has to fit the player. Otherwise, you're asking a kid to do something that he's not physically capable

or doesn't bring out the best in him. That's a great point. And I hope that one of the things we did well at Belmont was make those kind of choices to get players that fit the way we played, not only fit the way we played, fit the university, socially, academically, so on and so forth. And I think it's the reason that we had really a pretty fortunate or unbelievable rate of not having transfers. Because if you make good choices on the front end and you allow the kid time to make good choices and we weren't a pressure recruiting staff, then your chances that things are going to work out good are much better. A story of the rose is a story of love. from farms to our florists and right into the arms of sweetheart savoring a date night in

best friends showing their galantines how much they adore them and those giving themselves a little love go to FTD.com and save 15% through February 14th with Code Crush 15 and celebrate your love story with iconic roses, florals and gifts from FTD. If I could be you and you could be me

for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. We've all felt left out.

And for some, that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how at belonging begins with us.org. Brought to you by the ad council. Walk a mile in my shoes. Look for your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a stone.

storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Okay. So Bernie and Ernie. It's kind of more of the stuff of legend now. Yeah. And I would say that the sad part is that because Bernard King, one, it got hurt,

and two, because it just got overshadowed by the Michael Jordan era or even in New York with the Pat Ewing era, there are a lot of people that you say Bernard King was just an absolute scoring machine. There's a high percentage of current basketball fans who don't know how great he was, nor do they really, other than the kind of catchy nickname of Bernie and Ernie show, do they actually know. What were those two like as players, as people at that point in time of their lives?

Well, I still have a hard time saying that I've ever seen a more effective college basketball player than Bernard King was. And of course, in college, he was pretty much all low post. It was amazing to me

how he was able to adapt and play like he did in the NBA from the way that he played. He's as competitive of players. I've ever seen. He was young and immature, and he made some mistakes while he was at Tennessee, and he's admitted that and has done wonderful things since then. Ernie was a, Ernie was a talented player, but he was, he was physically and mentally

tough, and he was cocky in the good way. Thought he was good. I remember we just kind of messed around one day. on practice floor, played a little one-on-one, and I told him he was quicker. I thought he was quicker than that he looked. He said, man, that's good for my head. I appreciate that. But he was the guy that knew how to play, knew how to play the game,

was extremely talented, but complimentary to Bernard. And that was fascinating. That's the reason they built Thompson Bowling Arena in Knoxville, because you couldn't get in that Stokely Athletic Center to save your life when they were playing. So you're there as a student assistant for a year, right? That's an interesting dynamic in and of itself, right? Like you practice with the team, but you're trying to become a coach. You're not going to try and be a snitch, but you do know a lot of the stuff that's going on, right?

There's this, you're kind of both, which means you're kind of nowhere. What was that like? Yeah, I think, and I think that's true now to the guy. I was talking about, you have a, you have a, the kid come in as a graduate assistant coach or graduate manager or whatever it's legal to call these guys anymore. And, and they're, they're friends with all the players, but then they've got to assume a different role at times. But, uh, I was really, I was, I was basically coaching, helping to coach the junior varsity team, but literally just practicing with the varsity team. So I didn't quite have too much of that going on, really.

And I even still lived at home and not in the dorm with all the guys. So it was a little easier for me to have a little distance. Okay. So at that point in time, you're helping coach. And you've been around ball your whole life. You know, you've seen the system in Ocala. You've been back now. You know Ray Mears and everything he likes to do.

What when you get the, how did you get the Maripville job? Well, I was supposed to be graduate assistant at 10. and there was a funny NCAA rule. I mean, I was there and I was working, and assistant AD came out to me and said, sorry, you can't do this. I was in my sixth year of college, which is indicative of my academic success.

But they said, but they said that you had to be in your fifth year and in graduate school. And it took me four and a half years to graduate. So they took it away from me. But just prior to the seat, in fact, right as school started, a friend, Billy Henry, who had been basketball coach at Union University in Jackson, Tennessee, and then assisted to Tommy Bartlett at Florida, and then gone on as the head coach to Baptist College, which is now Charleston Southern.

He had resigned as basketball coach there in Marlville College, hired him as AD, head basketball coach, head baseball coach. but he couldn't even get there. He had a contract to finish teaching classes. So he asked me to be the assistant coach and basically run practice until he could get there. I even coached two games by myself. I hope they're not on my record.

But so I got thrown running into fire coaching a college basketball team, Division III. But and then I was assistant there two years. and then he promoted me to the head position when I was 25 years old. And I'm ashamed to admit how little I really knew. All I knew was to compete and try to figure out a way to win. But all I knew was Tennessee style of offense. Which was what?

It was a lot of a lot of, they ran the fast break this simmer. There's a point guard system. They ran the floor. Bernard King could really run the floor. They had two wings going down and said. They had the typical sort of transition with the trailer and all that kind of stuff. But when they got set up and Coach Mears was most of his career, a very deliberate coach offensively.

But as they got better talent, they started running. And it was a lot of two-man game with Ernie and Bernard on the same side of the floor, basically. Very, very little. if you went back to that time in the 70s, I don't even know that you'd see a ball screen at all in some games. That would be awfully odd to people watching the game today, but that wasn't used very much.

Ernie'd go one-on-on-one. They'd post-Bernard up. So anyway, I learned really how to coach by competing against other coaches throughout my career. I really didn't have a mentor. At that level, Marrival, who was someone who you coached against, who you learned a ton from, and you have to this day have a ton of respect for it. Well, Byrne Canfield was the coach of Washington Lee for a long time,

and he was really good. Tom Bryant was a really good coach at Center College in Danville, Kentucky. Guy named Dwayne Farmer, coached at Tennessee Westland down the road. But as I went further, you know, into small college, basketball. The guys, I would tell you, Don Meyer at Lipscomb, a lot of people know about Don. When I came to Belmont, that's who we had to figure out how to beat. They just won the NAA National Championship when I took the job here at Belmont. Paul Patterson at Taylor University in Indiana was a great coach. He coached Chris Holman, for example, several guys. And then

a guy named Randy Vernon at Cumberland College in Kentucky. he was really, really a good coach. So, I mean, that's just right off the top of my head. Those guys taught me that I better get good or I was going to get beat. Okay, so your best season at Mariville was what? Oh, I was head coached for two years. We were two and 13 after my first 15 games. So that doesn't look like a college basketball Hall of Fame resume right there, does it?

And then we ended up eight and six. Then the next year went 15 and 11, which may not knock you socks off, but it was the most wins in 31 years at Marable College. They were not a powerhouse. I went three years of assistant to Tennessee Tech. Tom Dieton was the head coach. He had been an assistant at Tennessee. And then I went to Lincoln Memorial University for three years,

and we had good teams there. So you show up at Lincoln Memorial. How much were you making? Well, I can tell you, I made, as an assistant at Marrable, I made 5,000. As a head coach at Marival, I made 8,000, then 8,800. I got to, when I went Tennessee Tech assistant, it was about 20. And I think, I think I made, oh, 27 or 28,000 a year at Lincoln Memorial. And then probably 32,000 when I came to Belmont as AD and head basketball coach.

So how do you make, how do you, how do you make ends meet? Like what else do you do? Like you just coached basketball? Did you teach as well? I mean, because this is the 80s. Yeah. I taught at Marrival College. I taught tennis class.

I can't remember what all I taught. At Tennessee Tech as an assistant, I, I taught community health. Well, that lowered the standard of the degree at Tennessee Tech, I think. But at Lincoln Memorial University, I was just a basketball coach. I had one poorly paid assistant, but that is all I did. And Doug, I can't even remember what I used to do when we didn't have a computer in front of us during the day. I mean, literally, what did I do? I don't know.

I don't know what either. So, so. One of the things, one of the things I've always been told about you is how well. you treat assistance, right? It's one of those things that where when coaches talk to you, when they talk about the type of person somebody is, it's not just how you treat your players and how you treat your assistants, right? It's a lot like, a lot of like us as people, like, I don't know if you trust people that don't have dogs, right? It's like how you treat your animals, how you treat your children, et cetera, is what type of person you really are.

And, okay, so you're at a head coach at Lincoln Moore. Who is your assistant? You're poorly paid assistant. Jeff Cheek was his name. He had played after me at Marrival College. But he lived, he lived up there. And so I knew him. And so he didn't, he was not going to be a coach, really. I mean, he ended up getting into business and making more money than he ever would have coaching, I think. What is that like in those old days? We're just two guys and you're just trying to figure it out with with basketball team. That's all I knew. And in fact, Doug,

I never did get used to having a lot of people around. You know what I mean? I mean, is we got, is our program grew in Division I, and we got more support staff and more, more kids want to be managers, and so they could learn how to be coaches and trainers.

And, I mean, we didn't have a trainer at Marrival College or at LMU or at Belmont. did there for practices or anything. If you got hurt, just kind of slid them off the floor. And I can tell you something else, they got back up quicker than they do these days. You probably remember what I'm talking about a little bit.

Oh, yeah. But we had a, we had a guy like that when I was at Oklahoma State. I'll leave his name out of it. But he, like, every day would go down, every single day, every single day. So I have an 11-year-old son. Yeah. And he played last year, he played tackle football first time of his life.

And the first game, he's running back, a quarterback, where he's running back and he makes a move, and then he gets just smashed. He's a little guy. He's just laying there. They come out and get him and take him out the field. And he, like, he takes his helmet off. Now, he's, it's weird, like kids today. At that point, I don't think he'd ever watched a full tackle football game.

Like, his first flag football game, he was crying afterwards. He was like, five. He's like, there are no spectacular plays. He's like, dude, they watch YouTube, right? And they watch highlights. it's all they watch. So he didn't know that when you come out, like you got a sit a play and then come back in. And so I told him like, are you okay? Yeah, we'll get back in the game. Like, when? Like, I don't know. I just tell your coach, you're fine. He thinks you're hurt.

So after the game, we had a discussion about being hurt or being injured. Yes. What's the difference? I go, well, if you're injured, I got to call the doctor. I'll go to the hospital and check you out. You're hurt, dust yourself off. Get back in the huddle, you know, and, you know, do whatever the play is called. So the next game, they're playing a team. And, you know, he gets the ball. He makes a run, makes a cut, nice move. And he just, bam, gets smashed.

And he's laying there for a second. And all of a sudden, it clicked in him. He hops up and he goes and tells, and the ref's like, son, are you okay? He's like, I'm just hurt. I'm just hurt. I'm not injured. I'm just hurt. Anyway, very, very funny.

But, but it's, it's, it's fascinating because, you know, they don't, the way in which they see things and learn things is so very different because they don't understand. And, and, but anyway, to your, to your point, yes, now that they have trainers, there's a lot more injuries and guys need a lot more rehab and they need all this attention. And you're like, we, we were fine. We all survived back in the day when you didn't have a trainer. I mean, anyone who's ever played overseas has had to tape themselves before if you needed tape, right? You had to find a way to, you know, hop in a cold tub or whatever. You just kind of figured it out. And there's something, there's something about that that is missing now as we try.

The more things we give you, the more things people need. And as you said, even as a coach, you didn't really need that much. You don't need a huge support side. You just, you know, give me a whiteboard. Give me a team. Kids will learn and listen. And let's go. Let's go.

Let's go have some fun. Well, and back to your point, I guess, about assistant coaches. And I just felt like that. create an atmosphere where they wanted to come to work every day. And, you know, I had assistance. I had one staff that was 10 years plus, the same three guys. And they all had young kids and they knew they could take care of that if they needed to. And I just, you know, I wanted, I wanted them to enjoy their job.

And I didn't feel like I had to do what I've heard some people do. We've got to have somebody here at five in the morning. We've got to have somebody here until midnight. We've got to do this. What is the point? What is the point? Exactly. And so it takes a lot of hard work,

but I hired people that were self-starters and we're going to do what it took. And again, it goes back to the choices you make of the people you bring in around you. whether they're assistant coaches or whether they're players or whether student workers, your trainer, I mean, you know, you're, you're safe and conditioning people. The choices you make in those areas are huge. Tell me about the Belmont job. Because for people who know Belmont now, it is very different than the job that you took on. And when you decided to leave Lincolnmore, I know part of it was they could get you more money because they would make you the athletic director as well.

But take me through the process of taking the Belmont job. Well, I was at LMU for, and you'd think that meant Loyola, Merrimount, right? But up here at Lincoln Memorial University, I was there for three years. In my second year, we played, we ended up playing Belmont three times. We had them. We scheduled them home and home when we ended up playing them in a holiday. tournament. And we we thumped them pretty good. And on my trip to Belmont. And when I was at Tennessee Tech, that's in Cookville. And Nashville is kind of its big city. It's where you get the news.

It's the Tennessee and the TV station, so on and so forth. So I kind of felt like I knew Nashville pretty good. And I saw a lot of potential in that school. And their coach resigned. Don Purdy resigned in January. He stayed on to coach the rest of the year. But they started their search. And this seems really odd, Doug, but they asked me, I had a good friend, his name's Ron Bargatsy. He had been head coach at Austin P.

And was an assistant for Roy Skinner at Vanderbilt back in the day. And Ron knew the dean of students and the president. And he threw my name in there. brought me down for an interview. And I literally took the job and it was announced before my season was over at LMU, which seems really strange to me these days. But it didn't then, I don't think. And so I just thought there was great potential. I really liked the president. It really wasn't about the money as much. I mean, I enjoyed three years, but if you've ever been to Harrogate, Tennessee, and then you have Nashville as a choice.

So Tennessee. Yeah. It's, it was pretty easy. And Belmont was, Belmont has turned into, you know, it's just, it's quite a school. And so anyway, but you're right. They had a, for the previous 20 years or so, they had a pretty significant losing record. And, and I'm moving into a job where Lipscomb, that time, David Lipscomb College, and it was Belmont College. David Lifescom College was two and a half miles down the road and they were the 1986 NAA national champions. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

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I've often given Mipscomb a lot of credit, even though they're such a rival for us. If their program wasn't that good and Don Meyer wasn't that good a coach, we'd never got there. they pushed us. They were a standard. And to reach that standard, you had to become one of the best NAA programs in the country. How'd you do it? Because it only took you three years to win the national championship.

How'd you do it in three years? No, we didn't make it. We made it to the tournament in my third year in the NIA. We beat Lipscomb in a game when they were 38 and 1. And we went to their play. beat him, I think, 103 to 98. We had a post player to get 58 points. And 29 in the first half.

And the famous story I hear is that Coach Meyer said in the locker room, well, Joe Bailey's got 29. He's never going to do that again. And he got 29 again. And we win the game and go to the tournament, the NIA tournament for the first time Belmont ever went. And then we had a great year of our own 37 and 2 in 1995, lost in 95 and 96 in the NIA semifinals.

But how did I do it? I don't mean, I don't, you know, you just learn, you dig it out of the dirt. You make mistakes in recruiting and you see where you made them and you choose, make better choices. And I recruited. Okay, but like a Joe Bailey, like, okay, so how did you get him? Joe Bailey was there. His mother worked at Belmont.

And he had been a very average to below average high school player, but he was six, seven or six eight. And the year before I got there, he had redshirted. Then he plays the first semester for me and doesn't play very much and becomes academically ineligible, stays in school, works his tail off in the summer, and he's All-American the next three years and his junior year who's NAA player of the year. And that got us playing four-round one, which is what the offense we played most of my

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before we transition. Was that not? I mean, right? Like, you had built it up to where you're this juggernaut and you've gotten so close. And then you leave and go Division I, was there this thought that, man, I'd like to dominate this level and win, actually win a championship before moving on? Well, I certainly, I thought we were the number one team in the country, and Birmingham Southern Beatis in the semis,

Duane Rebo, a really good coach, and they won the championship. But I really thought a little bit the opposite way, Doug, and that was, you know, now we've got to sustain this. We've got to be better than 37 and 2. We've got to be better than two straight years. And I would love to have won it. But when the president made the decision to go to Division 1, It was a little bit of a relief.

I mean, I could go back to, let's start trying to figure out how to win games instead of how not to lose. You get that feeling as a coach when you've had good teams. So, you know, I think most of us would choose to be a Division I coach if we could be one. And I got to stay at the same school that I already loved and become a Division I coach. So I actually, we had some rough years when went Division I, but most of that I enjoyed because I enjoyed building it. And I enjoyed seeing us getting better, making steps. And again, it was a different mentality.

I wasn't okay with losing, but it didn't just drive me crazy because I knew where we were. But I've relayed the story that you told me once on radio. And I think it was when you got your 500th win maybe, which is when you first got to Belmont. Didn't you sell popcorn during the women's game for the men's game? Like, wasn't that part of the job? Well, no. Yes, is the answer. I did have to pop popcorn and man the concession stand.

But it wasn't really part of the job. It was the athletic director's fault for not hiring someone. and I was the athletic director. So when I saw nobody was going to open the concession stand, then I had to get in there and get it done. So that's, yeah, that's kind of a famous. Did you have anybody walk up to you and comment on your coaching or on your team while you're doing this? This was the first game I ever coached at Belmont.

And so, nope, probably most people didn't even know who I was. Not to mention that there probably weren't, you know, more than 200 people there, period. So no, nobody's seen our team yet, so I didn't get criticized any behind the concession stand. And we won our game, so maybe I should have done that more often throughout my career. You mentioned the years in Division 1. It was, I guess, really seven, eight years until you had it, you know, six years until you got to the A-sun. Once you have a conference, that changes things. And then you did well your second year.

and then your third year, you get to posting, but you get to the NIT. Was it a player? Was it a group? Who turned the tide, which took you from a program trying to find your, trying to find your C legs in Division I basketball to being, okay, now able to compete at your level at the top of your league? That's a really good question. And obviously, it's more than, you know, it's building incrementally as you go along.

But we recruited two young men out of Northern Indiana. Adam Mark from Bremen and Steve Draben from LaPort. Fast forward to their junior year, Steve led the country in free throw percentage, and Adam led it in field goal percentage roommates in Division I. But those guys graduated in that year we went to the NIT in 2004. And they brought an Indiana basketball mentality to our program, to the locker room, to the weight room, to the practice floor.

As much as we as coaches would try to emphasize that, those guys just did it automatically, and that's the only way they knew how to play the game. And so I give them a ton of credit for changing the culture within the team that sometimes coaches can't even do. When you, I want to fast forward to 2005, 2006. That was the first year you went to the NCAA tournament. And I know that in your heart, you have your better teams before that, right?

But when you win your conference tournament and you beat Lipscomb in overtime and you finally get to the NCAA tournament and see finally we have arrived and all of what you've built gets not just rewarded, but actually discovered by most of America when you're when you're up there as a field of 64. So going into that season, what do you remember? What did you think the prospects were of that team? Well, after the 2004 season, it was a good team and got invited to the NIT, which as far as I knew, might be the height of our program while I was there. That was pretty good. We lost a lot of guys. We had a transfer from Tennessee named Boomer Herndon that sat out that year,

and we were not real good the year before 2005 and 6, but we actually ended up finishing third in the league. And in the Atlantic Sun, if you look back at that time, had some pretty darn good teams and coaches in it. And so we made some stride during the year with young guys. And so we felt good. We felt good going into that year. And we had a good year.

We split with lips come during the season, and we tied them for the conference regular season, and then we tie them at the end of that championship game. And Doug, I can't tell you, unless you live in Nashville and know the tremendous NAA rivalry, and we sold out Vanderbilt Memorial Gym one year in 1990 for a game. And so we turned Division I first, and now here's Lipscomb maybe going to beat us to the punch

and make the NCAA tournament. I don't think I've ever been, more nervous before a game ever. And Justin Hare, sophomore from Cleveland, Tennessee, we're down three. They make a three with about 25 seconds left. He drives the floor. I, of course, don't have any idea whether I need to call timeout or just let them play. And he drives the floor and gets fouled on a layup and makes a free throw, and they go

down and miss, and we win the game in overtime. and that changed our world. I mean, who knows what direction we would have gone in or Lipscomb would have gone in had it gone the other direction. So your first trip, your first time to win, your first trip to the tournament's unsurpassable, if that's a word. Yeah, no, it's pretty remarkable. A couple years later, you took on Duke. You took Duke to the wire. And you know how it is.

that when you get to the tournament, like you got UCLA, you got Georgetown, he got Duke. Like, who's that? Like, why don't you give us to Lakers next year? Sure, why not, right? Take me through the Duke game, what your memories are. I remember we had a terrible practice at Georgetown. We was in D.C. We had a bad practice the night before at Georgetown's little practice gym, I guess.

Or maybe it's their gym, but it wasn't very big. and I can, I mean, I can remember. And I'm, I wasn't a screamer or, but I was really upset. And I was telling them how bad it was going to be if this is what we were going to bring to the game the next night. And I don't, you know, I felt good about our plan. And I can still remember to this day that Duke was, was intentionally driving the ball the middle of the floor and creating all kinds of problems with people they were playing, you know, kickouts and dumps and scores. And we did a nice job of not letting them take the ball to the middle of the floor on the dribble.

And we hung in there and hung in there. And I don't mind telling you that when you play people like that, and there may be guys have different mindset than I do, but I kept saying, gosh, let's just, I hate it when you play somebody good for 32 minutes, then it ends up being a 20-point game. right? So I'm thinking, let's just hang in there. But we got to the point in the second half where we were down one. And I just thought this was the right time to show them something,

whether I believed it or not. And just kind of got on and said, excuse me for saying it this way, but I just said, what pisses me off, guys, is we're playing better than them and we're behind by one. Right. That's a frustration. And just try to deliver a message that to those guys, hey, we really do belong, and he thinks we're better than they are right now. And, you know, we had a couple of just unfortunate breakdowns at the end of that game.

Some things I certainly would do differently. We had a one-point lead with the ball, and we had a kid, Alex Renfro, left-handed guard, still playing professional overseas. He had a great game. And we set a screen and roll for him. And our guy in the corner lifted up and brought his man right into Alex's way. And he had to retreat and take a bad shot. They go down and score and take the lead.

And then we came down and had an out of bounds play that I called. It's kind of, it's got to be there. It's a lob. And we basically lobbed it right to them. You know, there's a lot of things about the end of that game. I wish I could do over again. but it made our program in a lot of ways. I mean, we were the team of the night that night.

Everybody switched. That's back when it was just everybody switched to that game. The National Predators were playing at home, and they put the game on the big screen while the hockey game was going on. And, you know, it just, it gave us a chance. And it led to some teams in, you know, 2011, 12, 13 that were really, really good teams. Ian Clark, who played in the NBA for six years and a whole bunch of guys around him.

Those guys all came to Belmont, I think, in part because of what they saw in that Duke game. I don't think there's any question. You know, it's, I, 98, we played Duke. They're number one ranked team. We were a nine seed. I thought poorly seated. And kind of same thing, like played them to the wire. You know, our best player missed an open three, then a draw.

I call it timeout when we only had one left. And so we didn't have timeouts the last two and a half minutes, whatever. And we end up losing by six. But you end up becoming like the team of the day because you almost beat Duke. But the other hand, you're like, wait, we were better than them. We should have won that game. And it's a weird, yeah, the space to be in. What I find fascinating, though, is that that was a run that you guys had,

where you guys had made those three tournaments. But then there was the next couple years of rebuilding. You mentioned Ian Clark and then kind of the next crew. You love building. That was one of the things that you loved about coming to Division I basketball. What was it like building it again, though, after you had that sustained success and won a degree? We weren't quite as good the next year,

but we still were, we tied for first in the conference, but it was a four-way tie, but it's still a tie. And then get upset. Well, we have to go play at Mercer in the first round of four versus or three versus six seed and get beat, knock out in the first round and playing that college insider tournament and get a win in that. But in the next year, again, I think we finished second.

The thing that I probably have is much pride in is from that 2004 team you talked about through 2019, my last year, and you can add 20 to it for Belmont's program, never finished worse than third in a conference race. And only one time that, and that was that 2005 year. So the consistency within the level where we were trying to compete was probably the thing that, again, if you look at it from a basketball perspective,

this is the hardest thing to do that we did. But, yeah, we recruited some good players in those. couple of years. Still had good teams, not quite as good. And then Ian Clark, Karan Johnson, two guards. And in 2011, we lead the country in scoring margin. And we played 11 guys over 10 minutes a game. And we had fresh players on the floor for all 200 minutes that five guys can play. And that was my favorite team to coach. Really? Why? Just because of that, because we, I decided, and I say that, I'd give my staff all the credit for a lot of things that,

but I think I just threw this one on them. We got to the point in preseason practice, that I could see the depth we had. And I was going to have a hard time playing guys that were good, very many minutes if I stuck to an eight-person kind of rotation. So I decided we're going to press after every made field goal. Not a crazy press, really a press to make us tired, believe it or not. Right.

So when guys come out of the game, they think they've done more because they're a little tired, right? And I ended up being able to, we were even, honestly, at every position, two guys at every position. I say even. Ian Clark played 24 minutes a game, the most of anybody on the team. He was our best player. And so we just, we went on a homestand where we won. four straight games by over 30 points. We started the season, losing close to Tennessee

and winning our next three games by average of about 35 points. And that system worked. I mean, it just, it was just, it was fun. And we ended up playing Wisconsin, and I thought it was easily our best chance. They had just played off on the Big Ten tournament, which probably hurt us badly, you know, because then he got them ready.

But they end up having a really good game. I thought they played really well. I thought we could have beaten them. But anyway, that stretch was good right through there, about four years. Really, Ian and Karan's class, really good. 2019, your last year. When you're, you get a chance to get to the first four

and you got a shot at Temple and you finally win an NCAA tournament game. What did that, what do you remember about that locker match with what that feel like? Oh, gosh, it seemed like, you know, it almost seemed like even though those guys certainly hadn't been there for a long time and they hadn't suffered through, you know, seven NCAA first game losses before. It seemed like they also felt the weight of that,

you haven't won NCAA tournament game yet before. And so all of that was great. I'm a big fan of John Feinstein, and he was covering the game for the Washington Post, and we talked golf the whole time afterwards. And then we got on a plane. We had to get right on a plane fly of Jacksonville. And, you know, I got to reflect on that flight about a lot of things.

my dad had passed away, my dad and mom both a few, just a couple of years earlier, and, you know, just thinking about how much that would have meant to him. And because, you know, he fostered me through so much so that I could be a basketball coach. And I was just really fortunate that I knew it was going to be my last year. We hadn't announced it. Talk to the president about it and the AD, Scott Coley, who played for me. and we decided it was best not to say anything and just play the year out.

And I would, so to get to end my career that way, with a, you know, end up having a first, you go beat UCLA, okay, in the same year. And then you get that at-large pick, which nobody really had us on the board, and then it seemed like everybody was happy for us that we were picked, and then win the game, which isn't easy.

and Fran Dunkey's last game. And then a backdoor tip to pass away from beating Maryland in the next round. So first round draft pick, the NBA, that's a pretty good way to get to go out. It is. Now, the backdoor play, it was the same play you ran against UCLA, right? It was a spin-off. Let me put it that way. We didn't want it to look the same exactly.

We figured, you know, everybody in the world saw that play after that game. I mean, again, I'm not on social media, but I heard enough about it. And it got called panic because what you do is you want to create panic because you pick the ball up and act like you got no choices. So that part was the same, but we got people there in different ways. What did you actually call it if it wasn't called? I only called it panic because I thought that's what you guys called it, right? And then some people call it Belmont. Well, let's run Belmont because it's Belmont's play.

What was it actually called? It was, it was, oh, our ball screens were called, you know, doesn't make any sense to anybody else, but our offense was four, okay, four out one and four. When we set a ball screen, that was an 11. So it was 4.11 was a ball screen in the middle of the floor. And we called, we put Eastern on the end of it because we said, set this up for Eastern Kentucky because Jeff Newbauer tried to deny every pass as soon as you crossed

half court. So that's my memory of 4-11 Eastern is what we called the play. But it became panic. And then when people asked me about it, tell me about panic or how'd you run? Well, we didn't have panic. But it was all the same concept of trying to get people think that we're in a whole lot of trouble. and it was there, and their kid, their kid had did a nice job, and that might have been, I know that Mark Turgeon and their staff was screaming back door from the other end of the, so, you know, maybe they, but the guy guard and a point guard, guy's fingertip on it, or it wasn't Dylan Wendler's guy, it was going to stop it. But, you know, it worked at UCLA.

They don't always work. The UCLA thing's interesting. So, so I don't know, I know you don't know this. So my, my dad had those tour teams. You guys remember, you remember those? Yeah. It became, right? So it became EA sports and all the stuff.

But those, you know, when I played, you had marathon oil and you had, uh, yeah, some other teams like that. And put together of. Yeah. Yeah. And I really, I played, I get to play against North Carolina, uh, in this deal. And we played in Carmichael, by the way. Oh, yeah. That was a ton of fun.

You know, we, but the, so my dad was, became like, an AU coach in Southern California. And we had UCLA season tickets. My sister went, I was a cheerleader there. My brother went to school there. And I got off of the scholarship there and turned him down. I don't know if that was a mistake at the time or whatever. But we went back and played. And at the time, we actually handed UCLA, this was Lavins last year, their worst loss on Paul Gavillian's floor.

And I, and part of it is, I'm a Southern California kid. I went to game after game after game there. My dad was like a basketball historian. So he taught me about what UCLA meant and how dominant was. And so for a kid like you who grew up basically on the sidelines at University of Tennessee watching Ray Mears and all these great SEC players, what do you remember about the feeling of beating UCLA at UCLA? Boy, I mean, I grew up and John Wooden was, it was all during that run.

And he was, you know, I had his books. I worked his basketball camp. I went from Knoxville, Tennessee and drove all the way to actually work George Ravling's camp for two week. And Pullman, Washington, thinking, well, it's on the West Coast. It won't be that bad. It's 24-hour drive. A thousand oaks where Coach Wooden had his camp. Worked his camp there.

I got to meet his daughter who comes to the games before the game. tell her all about that I ate lunch with Coach Wooden one day at camp. So, you know, it wasn't the same teams, but, you know, we got a win there. We got to win at North Carolina. Sure. You know, we lost again to Duke by one at Cameron one time. So it was a highlight, big time. time. If you could, if you could explain to a young coach how you're able to sustain success,

what would the answer be? I just, I really, I mean, it's back to making the choices of the people you have around you and deciding this is, this is a way I'm going to do it. I'm going to stick to it. For me, there was a lot about the character of our, of all the people involved in the program. That include all the players, not taking chances, picking guys from, that hopefully had been well coached in high school from winning programs, expected to win guys that were physically and mentally tough, and staying consistent with that. Doug, I, I... Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball. basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed cracks. I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

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Still thinking recruiting that a lot of coaches. you're just looking at a guy's physical ability to become a good basketball player. That doesn't make them the most effective basketball players. There's so many things that go into that. And again, I think if we, there's no doubt in my mind that a school like Belmont and fitting your program to your school, I think is important in college. But there's no doubt that that was our best chance to succeed. Could I go do that or could anybody go do that at Vanderbilt or, you know, any, you name, can it be done at Northwestern? Can it be done at Stanford? You know, those are the kind of schools where I think those kind of things might work. But that was our best way to be different to some degree. We were, you know, we ran a different offense than anybody in the OEC. So when they, when they played us, they didn't practice against it every day. They did, you know,

know, we were different. And, you know, obviously, peak reals teams were really different when you had to play them back in the day. And any time you played a Princeton-style offense, it was different and it was hard. We weren't that, but we were different the way we played the game. And I think that gave us an advantage. I think it did, too. I thought that was, I called your Arizona game. And it was one of those, I had a really bad feeling for you. And it was because it was one of the few high major teams that actually was playing. small. And because you guys had such great spacing and ball handling, it didn't actually work

against them because at that time they decided to play small. And you know, you end up creating kind of mismatches for teams. And your teams were so skilled. Now, part of it, though, is I'm not sure you're giving yourself enough credit. You develop players as well, right? Like Dillowindner wasn't, he was a 24 a game guy, but he wasn't a 24 a game guy when he got there. His first couple of years, he got better and better and better. The culture of improvement and of skilled development. What are your, what are your thoughts on how you build that within your program in terms of how hands on were you as a head coach, getting guys and things like that, fundamentals and every day in practice? That's where I, that's where, well, I think fundamentals

and practice and being demanding in those areas I was okay at. I think the skill development goes way more to, to my staff than to me. I mean, I would, I would be at some of our individual workout stuff, but not all of them at all. And they ran them. And so it's definitely important. I'm still, though, Doug was always kind of a dinosaur, old school guy. I also wanted our guys to be able to be regular students as much as we could. And we were not nearly the 365 day a year program. We didn't have mandatory summer stuff for our guys.

And the last few years, they would come in June. When we had basketball camps, they worked at camps, and we'd get some practices in. But they'd go home. And I don't think it hurt us. I mean, I think guys were well-rounded and relaxed, and they were excited when the old school October practices rolled around. Yeah, they didn't get tired of each other, right?

That's part of it. Or they didn't get tired of me. I have this, I believe that there's a mandatory limit that a coach can go over. You got to be here. You got to be a study hall. You've got to be doing this. You've got to be doing this. And they control lives. And maybe that's maybe that's a good thing at some places with some kids. But for our kids who are pretty mature and pretty good self-starters, we were okay. But, you know, letting them go. And they loved the game. That was another thing. Recruit guys that loved the game.

They don't want to go play pickup when we're not telling them to. I don't want them. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this,

we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure.

Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring

at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bag's daughter is bringing up the rear.

Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Dipers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off. Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes!

Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat.

Brought to you by Netsa and the right seat. had counsel. It's interesting. You've talked a lot about Lipscomb and that rivalry and what it meant for you to overcome Lipscomb and ultimately become kind of the dominant powerhouse within the city of Nashville. Casey comes over from Lipscomb and is now, what is that like for you to have the man who's on your sidelines as a guy who came over from Lipscomb?

Well, you know, Casey, Casey played for me. He was on that 95. 37 and he was my assistant for 15 years. So I let Lipskin borrow him for a few years. But there was no, what was interesting to me, and I had him on my podcast and we talked about this. Yeah.

But there was some guys, not all, okay? Some guys, though, they, well, you go to the other side. That's the dark side. Like, you know, you understand what I'm in terms of a rivalry. Like, I know he's your guy. I know he played for you, assistant for you. But you occupied the same city and you were rivals, and now he's back on your sideline. There was no hesitation for you in terms of that happening?

No, I think he and I go a lot deeper than that. And I was as honest as I could be with Philip Pudgeon when he talked to me about Casey, about how good a coach I thought he was, and he was a great choice. You know, it goes back to what you talk about assistant coaches. I was always for what's best for them. We had those guys for 10 years, the same guys, but I tried to help Casey get some head jobs during that time, and anytime anybody else had a better chance, help them get it.

There are more important things in this world than actually than winning the next basketball game or maybe even the next championship. And people that you care about, you want the best for them. And it really helped me, you know, it's easy, to get edgy about a huge rival and just decide you don't like anything about them. Well, I liked plenty about him when Casey was there. And I do now, Lenny Acuff is really a good man and really a good basketball coach that's there now.

And, you know, I find myself pouring for lips come the last several years when, frankly, I never would have before. Yeah, no, it's interesting because, but here's maybe the part, that in addition to getting to the college basketball Hall of Fame and winning an NCAA and winning all those games at Belmont. The idea, though, that if you think about it from when you arrived at Belmont where Lipscomb is the reigning national champion to now, it wasn't a question, I mean, Casey told us, it wasn't a question. Belmont asked, I'm taking that job, right, that it wasn't, and I know he played there into alma mater, but to leave Lipscomb for Belmont. and no one batting an eye because Belmont is the more prestigious program only speaks volume for what you guys. That's a fair way to look at, isn't it?

Well, I think it is. I think a lot of, a lot goes in that. I appreciate it. We did have a, hey, look, I lost a lot of games to Lipscomb over the NIA years, but we ended up with a pretty good run, one maybe 11 in a row at one point. And until Casey beat me a couple of times, soundly, by the way, not close, just beat the career in. And then,

but the school, the school as a whole really, really has grown in prestige and in the recognition it receives regionally, certainly in national, certainly in Nashville and nationally for that matter. So all that came together to make Belmont at this point a better job. Your greatest success story as a coach, as a player,

It doesn't have to be Ian because he made it to the NBA. Could be somebody who's a champion in business or somebody who's a champion in life. If somebody said, coach, who's your greatest success story? Who would it be? Oh, you should have submitted that to me before now. You're talking about just an individual. Oh, gosh. I'm going to, there's so many, so many kids.

I don't have a good one that comes to mind that stands out. I don't mean I've got a lot of good ones, a lot of a ton of guys I'm proud of. Nothing jumps out at me is a young man that, there's a ton of them that have gone, gosh, I've got a lot of guys. All right, how about this? How about this? Ian, okay, for Ian to make it.

Yeah. What was he like when you first got it? I thought he was an SEC level player. I remember standing by Bruce Pearl, and Bruce didn't like his release. And it turns out he, you know, he shot a pretty good percentage from three, like 40-something over his career.

And now Bruce, he makes plenty of good calls on players. Don't get me wrong. But he didn't get recruited there in Mill Tennessee State and that's won him pretty badly. And we were fortunate and won that battle. He was, he was and probably still is, a little skinnier than he needed to be to be as good as he could be. But he loved the game. He worked at it.

He was humble throughout his career. He was easy to coach, and that's not always the case when it comes to guys who get better and better and better while they're there. So I didn't have to coach entitled guys, Doug, and that's a, that's a, that's a, a tremendous relief for a basketball coach to not have to deal with that kind of mentality. So, you know, it just would be more of the whole of it. And I said this about this award. And I mean it, the game is about players. And I know coaches stay in places a long time, but it's supposed to be about players.

And that's the guys that deserve the credit. And I can't, I can't, I don't know what that award looks like. physically, but I can't chip off enough pieces to give to all the players that got me there. Well, you did get there, and a lot of it is you and the people you surround yourself with and your leadership and what it meant to, not just the program, but as you point out, the school, because the school, and I do think that the Duke game is as responsible for the growth of the program and the school as any of the other wonderful things that go on at that university. It's just crazy how it works.

It brought so much attention to what you had been building and what the school had been building. And now I think even doubly so, you go into the Hall of Fame, Marks, look at this incredible history, 30 years of success, and that you're able to keep it going with Casey makes it even more special. And sustainable success is really, really hard in business and life and in basketball, especially, because there's always somebody taking a shout at the big guy, right? You're right. You're right. Thank you.

Well, listen, I cannot tell you how appreciative I am of your time. It was always wonderful to call your games. I hope to induct you next year in Kansas City. I hope you and your family are well, and thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. Thanks, Doug. See you. Thanks, coach. Bye-bye.

Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. And that was amazing to catch up with Rick Bird, such an outstanding human being, great basketball coach, and leader of men. enjoyed it. We have a cornucopia of previous guests, including the man who replaced him as head coach at Belmont. We got so much, so much stuff to get to. Simply amazing. Just check out the All Ball Podcast. Check out our archives. And you won't want to miss all of the guests we have upcoming as well. By the way, you know what you can do. You can go to my Facebook page at Gottlieb show and if you have a question or a message, I will read it on air on my next pot.

Got that at Gottlieb show on the Instagram page. I'll check out the messages. I haven't checked those things out for a long time than I did. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that's actually how I caught up with Little Wayne was like Little Wayne had been texting me on IG. I'm like, I'm never on that. My son was like, hey, dad, little Wayne is texting you? Anyway, the daily show is 3 to 6 Eastern, 123 Pacific.

We talk all sports. and again, my appreciation to you, to Rick Bird, but also don't forget to download, subscribe, rate, write a review for us. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is All Ball. Are you ready for the big day? Not your big day, her big day.

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Give with meaning. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes, for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'll say it. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick you here, unpack what went down, and try to be. to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.