The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - All-In on Cade Cunningham; Former NBA Scout Bryan Oringher Evaluation, Questioning Analytics, Underrated Players, NBA Team Evals

Episode Date: February 11, 2021

In this episode, Doug explains why he's all-in on Oklahoma State Freshman Cade Cunningham, and talks with NBA Scout Bryan Oringher. They discuss learning under Gary Williams at Maryland, his NBA break as a video coordinator with the Wizards, working his way into an NBA scouting role, what he thinks analytics gets wrong, which NBA players are underrated, if the Nets have enough to win the East, and if the Clippers can win the West, and if LeBron and the Lakers can repeat. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. All basketball all the time. My guest for this version, this podcast episode of All Ball, is a guy who, I mean, he's actually super interesting young career, right? And a dude who has already spent seven years working in the NBA. And now you can follow him on social media at Scout with Brian. It's Brian Obringer and he'll join us in moments. A guy who was a high school tennis player, loved basketball, went to the University of Maryland, helped out, was a manager with the Terps. And then said, you know what, I love hoop. I want to get involved in the NBA and has some really interesting thoughts from his time in the NBA and

from the breakdowns that he does and you can follow him again on social media. Before we get to Brian, though, I want to share a couple of additional thoughts. You know, last episode, obviously, we had Mike Martin from Brown. I talked a little bit about college basketball and this season. You know, saw Cade Cunningham play. And Cade, look, I think he's one of probably three guys and they're all playing in college. You could be the number one overall page. but but kate is really interesting um obviously you know having his brothers an assistant coach

is a great way to get a really good player but the interaction between the brothers is fascinated to me i've talked to the mike boyton of course if you want to download his podcast he tells his story i've talked to some of the assistant coaches i've talked to other people around the program and granted there's not the student interaction whatever this year that there normally is And then I've talked to other coaches who didn't get Kay Cunningham. And they're like, he's the real deal, not just in terms of how he is as a basketball player, but how he is as a kid. And like that family, he's not going to stay a second year.

But they're like, if there's ever a family, that a kid would stay a second year, like that's the family. And so look, he made a, I thought, it wasn't necessarily a dumb move. I liked that in a tie game in transition, he attacked and looked. and look to make a play when they lost a TCU, a game in which first half he doesn't score a point. The student section, which did have people in it, was chanting overrated, and then he took over in the second half.

I didn't like the decision he made, but I like this idea sometimes of holding for a last shot is really interesting to me. Like sometimes, and I get like you, in that particular instance, in a tie game, you only want to get a shot up with four seconds or so to go. So there takes losing out of the, equation, which is exactly what happened in a questionable block charge call.

I thought it was a charge, actually. I thought Oklahoma State, you know, got back in transition just in time and planted their feet. But the point is more, I can't tell you how I'm impressed with I am with his ability to play all over the court. You know, Evan Mobley is another guy who could be the number one overall pick. And I think he's a stud player. What I'm impressed by with Cade Cunningham, and I'll give my player revals, we get ready for the NBA draft is having heard anybody say anything negative about attitude, work ethic,

having his brother around, no entitlement like an everyday dude. And then you watch him play and the way really good NBA players play, like they can handle it like a point guard coming off a ball screen, he can play out of the post and he can play off the basketball shooting the ball as well. So it's easy to be impressed with. the guy. It's like Anthony Edwards last year. So explosive. So explosive. And the thought was like, all right, needs to become more of a guard.

He needs to shoot the basketball a little bit better. Needs to defend with a little bit more energy. But you can see he's got an NBA body. And some of it was the field around him. But there wasn't the, he didn't have the post game. He wasn't a creative passer. And he definitely wasn't the adept ball handler. He's just a beast athletically and potentially a takeover a game.

athlete and score. I just, I've watched Kate Cunningham and I thought Penny Hardaway when I saw him in high school, but I watch him now and I do remember Penny was before injury set in was really

athletic. He's a lot more athletic than Penny Hardaway was. But it's the type of player that can play out of the post, can play with the ball, can play without it as well. Could he defend better? Yeah, could he shoot, could he shoot a higher percentage, of course.

You know? But it's a good job of getting the line, good job playing off a ball screen, and a great job, I think, of raising the level of a team. One that, and they're not great in conference play, they've been swept by TCU, although they do have a big win over Texas Tech on the road. We'll see what they do against Texas this weekend. But considering Oklahoma State under Mike Boyden had traditionally struggled the first month and a half of conference play and then figured it out.

all three seasons previously. Slow start. And even when Brad Underwood was the head coach, they struggled out of the gate in the Big 12 and then adjusted. He's got that winning thing where give me the ball, I'll win the game for you.

And they beat Kansas because of him, they win games because of him, not in spite of him. Really a rare one in done type player. And I think a rare get for whoever gets him in the number one or number two pick in the upcoming.

NBA draft. All right, let's get to our guest. Brian O'Ringer's was a scout in the NBA doing video for seven years. Now he produces his own content. He joins us now on the All Ball podcast. Be sure to catch the live edition

of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the iHeart Radio app. All right, let's welcome in. Brian O'Ring, Brian, let's start at the beginning of your basketball life. Where'd you grow up and what were your first memories of who? Yeah, so I grew up in

Maryland. I was a big, big Maryland and Wizards fan growing up. You know, love the Gilbert Arena's teams, you know, a little bit of MJ's Wizards era, obviously. I worked for Gary Williams, his last couple years at the University of Maryland as a student manager type, those Gravis Vasquez teams that were pretty good. Ended up then working for the Washington Wizards for six years. years. I was the head video coordinator for them. Brian, Brian, Brian, Brian, you're going, you're going way too fast. You're going like, no, this is about you, bro. Okay, you went, you went to college. I, I said, where you grew up? And you're like, I'm a wizard. And he started zooming through stuff. Okay, you go specifically where? Like, I grew up in Orange, California, Mario El Medina,

like my first basketball memories. My dad was an assistant at Long Beach State. He used to go and run round at games and you and lv or fresno state were the only teams that drew they'd come to town right and then we became UCLA fans and i wasn't really a laker fan so you grew up specifically where you grew up specifically in rockville maryland and uh yeah you know my my basketball uh you know at least before college wasn't all that exciting i mean i remember you know i was at the maryland miracle minute they lost the duke when we were up what 10 with like 54 seconds left that was yeah it was just on tv that was crazy that was crazy Yeah, a pretty heartbreaking memory.

But, yeah, actually, you know, when I was in high school, I was part of that kind of moneyball generation that I read that book and really wanted to work in baseball growing up. And that's kind of what I loved, you know, up until college at least. But, yeah, I just kind of realized once I got to college, basketball was my real love and kind of went all in trying to work there. What was it about basketball that made you love? you know, just an unbelievably beautiful game. I mean, honestly, just playing pick up every day myself and watching, you know, games nonstop. I just love everything about the game, you know.

I just, I think it's, you know, the best game that's not individual. It's all about the cohesion of five guys playing together and doing it as a group and playing hard. And, you know, usually those are the things that end up winning games. And, you know, you know, obviously when you're in sync and you're playing with, four other guys who love each other and play well together. There's just no better feeling. There is no better. It's interesting.

So, you know, I've been coaching AAU basketball now for a couple years. I coached it with my dad when I was still a player. And then, you know, when I got into broadcasting, I probably should have continued to do it. It just was hard with the time and kids. So now I have a, we have a 14 that I don't coach. I just occasionally help a practice. We have a 13.

We have two 13s, you have the 12 and 11 teams. And the 13, you has gotten to be really good. And I think if you ask the parents, honestly, they would say, like, individually, our kids are just okay. But collectively, now that we have this really strong group, they're like a good, solid team. We're not good enough yet to compete with, like, the super elite, crazy talented teams yet. But it's one of those things where I'm kind of committed to these families. Like, look, I don't know, we probably will never win one of the big tournaments. But your kid's going to get better.

And they're going to learn to play as a team because I think that, I think that lasts longer than, hey, I'm going to go join this team with a couple of superstar dudes and win a tournament, but have no real kind of, no real, really a piece of the pie. You know, I was just, I was the guy that stood in the corner and shot the ball when it came to me. So it's interesting. I feel the same way. I love, there's nothing like going to a park, right, with four year buddies or picking up a couple of dudes or whatever. And then running the, and just running the court, regardless of how good other dudes are, but just playing as a team like that. I think that's the best part of the sport is that a team can beat more talented individuals if they figure out each other's strengths and weaknesses and play together. No, absolutely. And yeah, like I said, you know, I grew up. I love the Gilbert Arena's

Wizards team, which obviously didn't do a tremendous amount of winning in the playoffs. But, you know, Karan Butler, tough juice was so fun to watch every night. He played unbelievably hard. You know, Antoine was an incredible score. Obviously, you know, Gilbert's one of the biggest tragedies in basketball history, how, you know, how talented he was and how much winning they could have done if he had stayed healthy. But yeah, I mean, to be perfectly honest, and I was a high school tennis player, I didn't really, you know, love it until I got to college. And once I got there, you know, I played pickup at the rec center probably almost every single day. And just my love for the game grew exponentially.

And, you know, you end up playing three hours every single day with, you know, 50 other guys at the rec center there. And it's just, you know, a tremendous bonding experience and so fun when you're winning and playing hard and playing together. And yeah, it's just a beautiful, beautiful game. And I was lucky. lucky enough to get to spend a long time working in it. Okay, so let's go to Maryland. Who's the point card before Vasquez? Okay, it was, it was, what's the dude?

I'm trying to think, what's the dude's name? Tinker with going to the throws and didn't, and then it was a disaster when he came back. John Gilchrist? John Gilchrist, John Gilchrist. John Billis. Yeah. Because that was, that was my, that was, I think,

I almost feel like that was like the downfall of Gary really is that he suffered through after those back-to-back final fours want to be in a championship, obviously. What Villanova went through when they went to their first final four, Oklahoma State went through after the 04 and 05 teams. I think Georgia Tech did this after they were runner up in 04 was, and we've seen, you know, Syracis has gone through this after they, after they, They went to Final Four is where you go to a Final Four, you win an national championship, but now you can recruit anybody you want, right? But they're not OK, geez. They're not your kind of guy. They're not the guys that the program was built around, right?

And they're a little bit entitled and their expectations are to just show up and hoop and win. And there's like a skip of a step. And they're not as invested in the program. That's my outside perception of what happened during the Gilchrist era. Is that a fair perception as somebody who was on campus at the time? Yeah. So, you know, I think I got to campus probably right after him, you know,

the start of Gravis and Eric Hayes when things were a little bit better. But, you know, that sounds about right. I mean, I think Gary was definitely better without the five-star recruits, without the McDonald's All-Americans. He certainly didn't love to recruit in the first place, didn't love to recruit those guys in particular, because, you know, like you said, that they tended to come with a sense of entitlement.

And, you know, he was much more into the Vasquez's and the Juan Dixon's and the Blakes and the guys that were under-recruited and that ended up having a chip on their shoulder and that he could, you know, push relentlessly hard to achieve a lot more than anybody thought. But, yeah, Gilchrist definitely, you know, besides that moment in the ACC, tournament didn't work out tremendously well.

And then, you know, actually the year he ended up retiring after was after Jordan Williams's sophomore season where he went to the draft, you know, I think was a high second round pick, but he left too early, you know, could have come back and been a tremendous player as a junior and, you know, ends up flaming out of the NBA. And after like a season, you know, it was just way too immature to go. And I think, you know, after that happened, Gary was just kind of done with it and decided to be that enough dealing with that kind of nonsense. But yeah, he definitely did a lot better with, you know,

the guys that were thought of lesser for sure. Okay, so you get done in college to grad, like grad assistant. And then how did you get in the league? So it's funny, actually. So after Gary's last season, I emailed Tommy Shepard, you know, who's now the wizard's GM. He was the assistant GM at the time.

And honestly, I just wanted to pick his brain. I just asked if I can take him to lunch, you know, ask him a few questions, find out, you know, some tips and things from him. And I happened to mention what I had done, you know, at Maryland in the film room and everything there. And, you know, at the time the Wizards had one guy working like 120-hour weeks in the video room who was just completely overwhelmed. And, you know, they said they could use some help. And I got to come in an interview with him. and then I actually ended up interning for the Wizards my last two years of college just working, you know, for relentless hours in their film room even remotely.

And then right when I graduated in Maryland, actually, I got to become full-time as the head video coordinator traveling with the with the Wizards. Okay, so here's my question. You've been a basketball fan. You didn't play basketball in high school. You started playing basketball and loving the game in college. From the money ball idea that you understood, analytics probably above that of many of the older guys even in the wizard's front office right because

you know we were we were raised that not anti-analytics but that just wasn't the way which data was collected or really deciphered right but you also hadn't studied the game the way that you study the game or have to allow others to study the game when you're cutting up film so when you first start watching film of NBA games. games and breakdowns. What, I'm just, I'll just tell you personally,

like, as a player, what jumped out to me, I remember was, so my, after my junior year, I think it's after me, my sophomore,

my junior year, there used to be a rule where you could go and work out with NBA teams. You just had to pay your own way. They couldn't pick up anything. They could give you a jersey and some shorts, a t-shirt. So I went to a trailblazer.

Mark Worcantyne-Hook me up. I went to a Trailblazers minicam. And this was, Germain O'Neill was maybe in his second here in the league. So no one knew how good Germain O'Neill was going to be. And this is when they were the jailblazers, right? But they had dudes. They had Rashid. They had Greg Anthony.

They had Bonzie. I mean, they had fucking. dudes, right? And so the couple things I remember my first foray into professional basketball was one, goddamn everybody's long, right? Like everybody's long. Right. You know, there's not one guy that you're like, oh, well, he's a normal, like everybody walks in and they're like fucking condors. And which makes the way I, I see basketball as a player is, you know, through windows and you know where a pass is going to go where it's an angle for a drive where the space is to create a shot and these windows close up so fast because even when they're beaten

they're not really beaten because they just they have long arms and big hands and and great ability to react so so the length of players was studying to me and how much like you you think you've been around good shooters, you know, and I used to play pickup ball with Scotty Brooks. It's interesting about the Wizards. So Scotty was a legend. He grew up. I'm again, Orange County. He played UC Irvine. And he and guys named Todd Thornton and Willie McGee and Todd Murphy, all guys that played in the NBA and played overseas. They all would play pickup ball at this a couple of spots in Orange County. And so I'd seen like how they could shoot in game. you know but I I don't think I had a healthy respect for just how fucking good they were right like I don't think I just don't think it translates to people like I had a conversation with somebody the other day and they were they were trying to tell me like well you know NBA players only shoot 50 percent so you know I was like okay you have to understand NBA players shoot you know 40 percent from three and 50 from two in an NBA game

against NBA players. If you put an NBA player in a workout in a gym, they shoot like 85, 90, it's unbelievable how good they are. Even guys that can't shoot can shoot, they just can't shoot in an NBA game, right? So those are the two things that jumped out to me. Yeah, you're a college kid, you start breaking down film, working all hours of the night.

What do you remember about the first couple of things you thought and learned about the NBA that you didn't know previously? Yeah, first thing. comes to mind definitely is a little bit of a story, but, you know, the fact that just not everybody loves the game, you know, I went from Maryland, like I said, where Gary would be cussing guys out if we're only up 50 at halftime against Longwood to my first NBA experience being, you know, the locker room with the Wizards, Javelle McGee, Andre Blotch, Nick Young, Jordan Crawford at the time, walking in at halftime, down 20, laughing about it. So, you know,

that was just a, it was a terrible culture at the time. And, you know, you realize, like I said, a lot of those guys just do it for the paycheck. They do it because they're seven feet tall and, you know, they happen to be great at it. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they, you know, really love the game and are all out nuts about basketball like we are, for example. You know, so you definitely see that. And absolutely, you know, the part about how talented every single guy is, you know, just jumps off the page. I mean, you know, we'd have some games, I remember, Phil Pressey, I think, was on like a 10-day contract with the Celtics, and we didn't even think he would play. He was like, you know, 14th on their depth chart or something.

And so he actually wasn't even on the scouting report. He ends up getting in the game and gives us like 20 and they win the game. And after the game, Randy Whitman comes in the film room like, why the fuck wasn't Phil Presby on the scatting report? You know, just because, yeah, you don't appreciate it. Dude, he's on a 10-day, bro. Exactly. Yeah. And he killed us.

So, you know, you see that all the time, guys that are 14, 15 guys on the roster, guys that are, you know, 40 that you think are about done. And they come out and, you know, you take them lightly or think they can't do something, and that's when they kill you. So, yeah, you absolutely see that. And then, you know, last all, I'll give you a two. I mean, you kind of mentioned the analytics. And I definitely came in the game, like, thinking that I was going to be a huge analytics guy.

And, you know, like I said, I grew up on the money ball stuff. But once you really get to it, once you're in all the coaches meeting, you know, watching film with guys that have done it for 30 years and, you know, just pour over every single detail, every little meticulous aspect of everything in the game, you know, you really realize that the analytics and the stats show very little of how much actually goes into winning basketball games. So it's funny. I actually started probably very extreme on that analytics end and ended up drifting where now I'd say, you know, almost all I test because I think the stats just do a pretty terrible job overall measuring, you know, what really wins basketball

games. What do you think it misses? You know, where do you start? I mean, you know, even Daryl Mori, like the biggest analytics GM, obviously, he has some quote that's like, you know, the basketball box score is absolutely worthless, you know, how many people just look at, oh, Zach Levine's a bucket, he scored, you know, 40 points tonight and don't see that, you know, he missed. You 10 reads on pick and rolls. He missed five rotations. You know, he, 50, 50 balls, hockey assists, all those things don't even, you know, don't even get measured for the most part. You know, so it's that. And then like I said, it's also just competitiveness. I think defense, we don't really measure at all well with the box score. I mean, you know, there's some things of plus minuses and

things like that that I think do okay. But yeah, you know, I think defense is almost impossible to measure Most of the best defenders are the ones, you know, getting lit up by the best offensive players every night. So obviously, you know, their stats take a little bit of a beating. But, yeah, you know, it's just so hard to capture the impact of five guys playing on a string and being locked in together, you know, with a stat sheet. It's that that's a fascinating thing. Now, what are your thoughts on plus minus? You know, it definitely has some value and there's a few ways to like adjust it where certainly it's worth at least being a piece of the puzzle. You know, and I'm a believer of like Rich Cho, I think always had a saying that was eyes, ears and numbers, right?

Numbers have to be a part of the equation, but you also have to, you know, pass the eye test. You have to listen to what coaches, what scouts are saying. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

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We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drink. Sidebar. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a bogo. Well, then you got it. Do you want a white collar or something here? Just hit it.

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Listen, Inside American Soccer with Tom Bogart and Tab Ramos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. You know, and I think plus minus, for example, like, has always been used against the guy like, like, DeRosen because, you know, okay, in the 10 minutes he's not on the court. Sometimes his teams have done a little better than the 40 minutes he's on, but, you know, they discount that almost every single team he's on is won 50 games year after year after year. And he has such a overall, you know, tremendous impact on the game. and they just crush a player like him just because he can't shoot threes. You know, that doesn't mean that he's still not an incredibly efficient score.

He makes so many plays for his teammates. And like I said, he's played winning basketball so long for Toronto. He gets the San Antonio in his first year. They lose, you know, their starting point guard for the season. Everybody thinks they're going to be awful and they win 48 games his first year there. So, you know, I think there's just so many guys like that that the stats just, you know, fail to appreciate fully. Weight loss starts with the mind, and nobody knows this better than Martha Cameron, who lost 20 pounds on Noom weight.

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Discovertheforest.org brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Okay, so who is the least appreciated guy from your perspective? Is it, Demar? Yeah, I think long term, you know, at least over the last

10 years or so, I think he's gotten the most undue hate, probably. I think, you know, Ben Simmons is up there as well. I think we get so lost in the fact that, yeah, obviously, you know, he doesn't have a jump and that's a big fatal flaw that tends to show up in the playoffs. But that doesn't mean, you know, like I said,

he doesn't still impact the game incredibly by being one of the best five probably defenders in the league and being an incredible passer and his feel for the game and all those things. I think are why Philadelphia is first in the east right now. And he's playing amazing basketball. And if you look online, you still see nothing but people killing him every single day for his shot. he's up there. And the last guy I'll say, you know, James Harden, too.

Obviously, he's had playoff failings. He's, you know, had questionable commitment at times and some things. Definitely that drive me nuts. But, you know, it also drives me nuts when you hear that he's like a ball hog or selfish when he's leading the league in assists. He's had plenty of seasons, 10, 11 assists a game. He's, you know, you watch and play. I mean, his feel for the games off the charts is his floor vision's incredible.

and he's he's also a better defender than people think. You know, and I think it's sad now that he felt he had to go to Brooklyn and a super team because, you know, he was just getting crushed by the narratives of, you know, not being good enough to get over the hump with a team that wasn't amazing, quite frankly. And, you know, now that's what happens. All these guys feel that they have the need then to join forces and go to a super team just so they can get a ring to, you know, to appease Twitter in the public.

No, like validates, somehow that validates their career when it shouldn't. You know, it's interesting. It's like, and I have to be very cautious of this myself, right? Like, we can't make getting a ring the only thing that matters because when we do, then guys pursue a ring and then suddenly they're the bad guy, right? Like, yeah, I mean, that's really, that's really Kevin, the story of Kevin Durant's career, right? Whereas he's, he was playing Oklahoma City. Okay.

And he was playing two on five against the Warriors. I know they're up to three to one. I get it. Okay, but you had Stephen Adams who's a non-scorer. And Andre Robertson is a non-scorer. I try to think who else they had, who is there? Who else was, who else? They had Abaka, who is a shoot.

Abaka was on that team, right? They had Abacca. So Obaka could shoot. But then you have Russ is not a shooter, right? But I remember when they're playing against the Warriors, the Warriors put two guys in the zone. And just two guys right there at the elbows. So when he catch his elbows, he was constantly double-teamed,

where there's just nowhere to go. So he goes somewhere where they're like, hey, we're going to give you all the space in the world. He gets all the space in the world, gets LeBron on an island. And like, you can't guard that fucking guy. And he wins a couple championships, would have won a third one. And suddenly he's the bad guy because he got tired of, you know,

trying to carry a team that wasn't constructed to the way which it could truly show how magnificent a score he is. And look, again, I won't apologize for some of the social media stupid shit he's done with the burner accounts, whatever. And maybe for, you know, his lack of understanding of how other people would handle him leaving. And I do think there's a right way and a wrong way to leave, even if you do leave, all that stuff. I actually understand, like, it'd be, and it have to be really, really, one on five is hard. I'll give you a story real quick. So obviously I wasn't a score ever since high school.

And my first year playing professionally, I was playing with a team called Eurogric. We won the Russian championship. We're the first team not named CESCA to win the Russian championship. And we were, I joined in January and we were stacked. And we had four or five good Russians. We had three good Lithuanians. We had the best player in Ukraine.

and the reason that matters is they all counted as Russian. And then we had Willie Burton and me, and I played this American that year. And we kicked everybody's ass. And we were so good that we won the league by like four games. And so we advanced automatically to the semifinals of the playoffs. Well, when we won the league by four games, there were still two games left to be played. And I was 24, and all these other guys are late 20s.

and 30s and somehow they were like, we're going to go take a brick. Like they got to all, Willie got to go home. One of the Russian dudes lived in Spain. He went to Spain. And all of a sudden, like, you know, I was a, I would start some and six-man some. And suddenly, like, they all pieced out. And I was playing, I played against Cesska with the juniors. And like one or two of the bench dude, like the bench scrubby dudes.

Right. And I was, you know, like, Now a sudden it was on one part, it was awesome because we're practicing. We have two games left. And one's against SESCO. One was against, I think mineral water. Right? Mineral water is actually a town in South of Russia.

And so like now I'm the dude. We're like we're running hide side ball screens, all this shit for me. It's really good. And we get into a game and everywhere I go there's two dudes. And remember, like again, I'm not a score. I'm a pastor. I'm a facilitator. Like that's, you know, when you want to be pro, you got to do what you do best. But in this particular setting, they're like, dude, we need you to go get buckets.

So my first game playing with that group, I was like two of 14 or something against Cesska. And I mean, I missed some good looks and I missed a dunk coming down to lane. I had, I actually, I just shot poorly, but it was so hard, so much harder when there was no space to do what I wanted to do. because I could get by guys, but then the second guy I really struggle with because I was so used to passing off. And the second game against the lesser team, I was much better. But it was one of those things to where everybody thinks they want to be the dude, but you also have to have space to do what you do. And I think you nailed it with the narrative, right? We create these narratives of you're only an all-time grade if you win a champion, but you can't be a champion unless you have other dudes with you.

And sometimes you can't organically allow that to happen on its own. Right? You just can't. So I think it's really hard for these guys. The hard thing, I'll disagree with you. I'll push back on this point. I know that we pick on him for some of the defensive stuff. But like he doesn't guard. I mean, he just doesn't.

And now I don't think he's as bad as Kyrie is, and I'll explain why in a second. But he doesn't guard. And then there are times in which in the playoffs he tries to guard. And I think that's one of the things that limits him offensively is you go through a season playing one way. And then you get to the playoffs. They're not giving him the fouls the way they used to give it to him. And he's trying to guard. And so he's exhausted because playing both ends is really hard.

And then I agree with you. He is not selfish. He's magnificent with the ball. But what they were doing in Houston allowing him to just, you know, dribble, dribble, dribble, create the mismatch, dribble, dribble, dribble, it becomes a hard watch. And it takes away from how magnificent his skill set is. I always said, this is my thing on James Hart. He's incredible, okay, might be the best offensive player in basketball,

but I can't stand to watch him. Now, I say that, and I actually really like how he's playing with Brooklyn, because he's back to being more facilitator, and he's showing off how good a passer he is. and that kind of stuff, that kind of stuff shows like what people don't understand about James Harden is painfully obvious. No, absolutely. I mean, yeah, he, you know, Houston, you got to remember that last year they're playing without a center. You know, they play PJ Tucker's 6'5 playing center.

And probably the best aspect of James Hardin's game over his career has been his pick and roll passing, you know. So Darry can say all he wants that they have the most efficient offense ever. James Hardin's the most efficient player ever. But, you know, in the playoffs, you need a, you need a mix. You need somebody that can get their own shot in the midrange. You need Kevin Durant, you know, you need guys like that. You can't only take threes or only play, you know, robot ball. And that's what they never understood in Houston too.

You know, they just became so predictable in the playoffs and the Lakers just, you know, pressed up like crazy on threes and helped like crazy at the rim. and Houston just absolutely refused to take a mid-range jumper, which just makes no sense. And yeah, you know, you're seeing again, Hardin has real pick and roll options now. He has talent around him and, you know, the narrative thing, 100%. Kevin Durant wasn't good enough without a ring. So he goes to Golden State, gets rings, and then that still doesn't validate him. So he goes back to Brooklyn trying to kind of do his own thing with Kyrie, but then they're still not good enough to win just with those two.

so they need more help. And, you know, now the narrative just continues to cycle and cycle. And, you know, Hardin's defense, like I said, you know, he definitely deserves criticism. His lifestyle, I think, has definitely caught up with him a lot in the playoffs. You can't be going out as much as he does over the season and expect to have the energy to do it on both ends. Like I said, for 40, 45 minutes a night. You know, but you saw like against the clippers the other night. One thing I think he's really underrated in is,

post defense and he's just so hard to move, you know, for even Kauai and a Bac and all these guys were trying to post him up and his, you know, the way he resists post-ups is pretty incredible. So I think he definitely, like I said, is better than people think, but I do agree with you, you know, he's marginally better than Kyrie on that end and still definitely, definitely not great. Well, here's my thing with Kyrie, and some of this is inside info, right, from people who have played with them or people that have coached him or been around people that coach him. It's not the Kyrie's bad on defense. He's not very good at defense. It's that Kyrie is, he doesn't know he's bad on defense, right? Or he refuses to, you know, the easiest

example that I like to give is they played the Celtics, they played the Bucks in the playoffs when he's with the Celtics. And their defensive scheme was to switch everything except for Kyrie, you know, which is basically what Golden State does with Steph, right? Where he stays home and everybody else, everybody else switches. And under no uncertain circumstances, did they want him guarding Janus? Right? They're like, we don't want that. Yeah.

We're going to protect you. And he kept switching out on Janus. And not just switching out, but then switching out and like challenging Janus. And, you know, the coaches are just like, what the fuck, dude? Like, we're actually trying to protect you so that you. you can be the great offensive player that you are and not have to worry about defense. And, you know, here you, you know, not have to worry about, you know, guarding the, you know, the best score maybe in the league.

And, you know, you're, you're doing your own thing, which is, that's the frustrating part about, Harry. It's not that he's better. And I agree with you on, on Hart. And that's a great point that he's actually a really good, he's incredibly strong, he's big. He is a good post defender, which always is funny to me when, when teams, you know, trying to attack him and iso him in the post.

No, dude, take him out in the court. That's when he just allays. You know, and then he, you know, he allays. And it used to work in Houston when they had Capella because he could allay and go ahead, go to the rim. You got that big fellow waiting to block your shot, you know? So, okay, so let me ask you about Brooklyn. Does it, in the end, do you think it works?

I think, you know, I think they definitely have a tremendous chance to at least make the finals. To me, I think they're the best equipped team in the East. I still don't buy Milwaukee as a playoff team. I still, you know, Philly obviously is going to struggle with Ben's shot. You know, if they play like they did against the Clippers, which was probably the best defensive game I've ever seen Kyrie play, quite frankly. I mean, he was, you know, probably the best game I've ever seen in play period, considering how good he was offensively, too.

You know, if they're that locked in, absolutely. But like you said, I mean, the million. dollar question is, you know, you don't know if Kyrie just decides in a month that he's going to take two weeks to go canvas around the country and do whatever else he wants to do. I mean, he's just a tremendously bizarre individual that nobody's really been able to figure out completely. And yeah, you know, I think it's a huge test to a first time, not only head coach, but first time coach really in Steve Nash. And I think at times he's looked overwhelmed. I think, you know, he doesn't take the time out against the wizards with them up to inbounding the

ball under their own basket with like five seconds left. They throw it away and Westbrook hits a three. I mean, you know, it's a huge question mark for him. But, you know, ultimately, I think it'd be pretty hard to bet against Kerry Harden and Kevin Durant. And I do think they have enough in terms of role players and defensive-minded guys to, you know, just enough to make it work if those three guys are, again, playing like they did against clippers the other night. But obviously, you know, it's going to be all up to the mental

and if they can, you know, stick together and manage Kyrie well enough to make it across the finish line. Yeah, I think there's a series of great. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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With all the snacks and drink. Sidebar. Why did you get hard salsa? or instead of beer. I had a bogo. Well, then you got them. Do you want a white collar or something here? Just take it.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Points you made there, which are interesting. And the fact that he did all of that, they did all that against the Clippers is probably the best way to get into, best way to say it, right? Like the magic to the NBA is, yes, I think Kyrie can lock in for a series against the bucks, for a series against the Celtics especially that he'd love to do, right? A series against the clippers against the Lakers.

The question is, can they get there, right? Can they get to that part of the finish line where, okay, now your competitive juices are flowing? And now you can, and that's the part where we just don't. I just don't know. Does anybody know what that dude's up? Like, I do wonder if KD even understands what he partnered with. You know,

it's like when you're friends with somebody, it's like when you're dating somebody and then all of a sudden you're living with them. It's so different. Yeah. I mean, just a completely different experience. I mean, it's the reason that the bachelor and bachelorette, like they never make it, right?

Because it's all fantasy. And then all of a sudden you get back to reality. You're like, wait a second, this person's a slob. This person is a idiot. This person has no drive. So it does. Okay.

Where are you on the Clippers this year as opposed to last year? You know, I think obviously at times last year they look great, you know, and in a lot of the regular season, they look great a lot of the early playoffs. I mean, ultimately, you know, like we talked about, the narrative with them is just going to be, do they make it to the finals or not? And anything short of that is going to be probably viewed as. as a failure again, certainly, you know, if they don't at least make it to play the Lakers in the conference finals. You know, I think Doc, quite frankly, really did get out-coached by Mike Malone last

year. And, you know, I think a big upgrade for them was not only getting, you know, promoting Ty Lou, but what they've done with the assistance there has been really important to get, you know, Dan Craig, who's a great preparation guy from Miami, Kenny Actinson, Larry Drew, Trumsey Billups, Rogers. You know, he's got a really good staff around him now, I think, better than, better than what Doc had, you know, but can Batum keep this up? I mean, he looked near Comatose in Charlotte, and he's shooting like 40-something percent from three and just been unbelievable for them. You know, the whole team is shooting like above 40 percent from three. They're all playing tremendously well together. But yeah, I mean, like we said, you know, the question marks all going to be about the

playoffs. And Paul George clearly is. is going to have a lot of chances to get in his own head in the playoffs if he struggles at all there again. So do they have enough to overcome that against the Lakers? I don't know. I think those two teams pretty much are coin flip still if they face themselves in the Western Conference Finals. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered. berries, gourmet treats, and more.

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And then the Lakers this year. You know, it's interesting that I think the clipper it was a lot for year one, but they were probably, I don't, I don't, I didn't love the Lakers roster last year, but it came together. Part of it was they were in the bubble and they, you know, I, I, I don't think they, you know, it's funny. Everybody says the Clippers, you know, succumb to the bubble. The truth is the Lakers were on the berth there too, but what happened with them was interesting was they weren't doing so well, emotionally. And they were all ready to go home. And then they had, then the dealing, the tragedy in Kenosha happened, right?

And there was the protest. So they actually had missed two game days, which gave them all time to kind of rest and recharge their bodies. And then, you know, they played shortly after. Then they advanced to take on the rockets. And the rockets, first, it was a terrible matchup for the rockets, right? Because the rockets could only play small. And so as you point out, like the Lakers had a great. game plan and really matched up well. And then, you know, Russell starts talking shit to them,

which, you know, supercharged everybody. And then the clippers lose and they're like, well, how we can win this thing? So a lot of it was, you know, it's interesting how we're going to go back and tell the story of the bubble and lead out the fact that the Lakers weren't doing so hot for a good portion of time. That said, I like a lot of the things they've done to their roster. I just, we make this assumption that we know what Dennis Schrooter is going to be like in the playoffs, we have no idea. I've no idea how he's going to react in real pressure situations. And, you know, I think there are times in which coups looks better.

There are times in which he does not. And I also wonder, like, we, we, this is my biggest problem with all of us collectively, not just, and I have this problem too, is we see one thing and it affirms what we think. And that's what we ride. So, you know, LeBron looks incredible against the Bucks. Keep in mind, he looked like shit against the Warriors, didn't play well against the Bulls. And he's not expected to be magnificent every night. But there are nights in which he looks like he's in his mid, late 30s and he's played 18 years in the NBA. I'm interested in what LeBron is the percentage of times in which he can be LeBron when we get to the playoffs, considering it's not just this year, it's last year.

You know, it's, there wasn't time off. And we can say, hey, he's got this great body, whatever. But like, at some point, father time does start to catch up to you. So again, my question to you, Lakers this year, what do you think of the roster, how they're playing, and what it looks like once we get to the playoffs? Yeah, I mean, you know, when you have LeBron and AD, it's hard, hard to really screw that up. You know, you'd be hard pressed to put a roster together that they can't find some way to compliment. pose to, you know, come playoff time. I mean, certainly I agree with you about Schroeder 100%. You know, I think one thing I was definitely on all season last year, Lakers fans were just

bitching incessantly all season long about Rondo and his regular season stats and all those things. But anybody that knew basketball knew that he's a genius, you know, he's a savant. They knew in the playoffs he would he would have more and be able to play defense and then, you know, make those lobs and all the things he does. know. So, yeah, is Schroeder the better fit over 72 games and can he play more minutes and can he start? Sure. But, you know, will he have the impact Rondo does in terms of leading a team and understanding the game in the playoffs? Probably not. You know, that's a big question mark. You know, losing Bradley, losing Danny Green's wing defense is still certainly a question mark to me.

You know, you have Crusoe, you have Matthews, you have Horton Tucker's, you know, young. and impressive at times. But yeah, you know, that the center has obviously changed a ton. Gassall looked like he was out of juice, really, for Toronto in the playoffs. He's looked pretty good for L.A., but certainly big question mark if he can really make it through a whole season. You know, Perel, we talk about the Clippers, he was the one guy that, you know, most of their fans blame for their shortcomings in terms of his defense,

his rebounding at times in the playoffs. So, you know, he's definitely still. a question mark to some extent. So yeah, I think, you know, you kind of put it fairly. I think both those teams still have big question marks. And, you know, the Lakers ultimately, they pulled it out and the clippers choked at the end. So the narrative is that the Lakers were some drastically better team. But, you know, I think the truth is closer to, they were both pretty damn close last season. You know, they probably were probably the best two teams in the league, ultimately. You know, and I think we'll get to see that this year in terms of them meeting in the Western Conference finals.

And I think to me that that's basically the NBA finals. You know, I think they're ultimately going to be the two best teams in the league. You know, and whoever wins that, I think should be able to beat Brooklyn or whoever comes out of the east. If you can pick one player right now in the NBA, who would have been? This is to build around or like for right for one game? No, for one season. this season. Still got to go, LeBron. Yeah, I mean, you said, you know, 36, but he's like Brady, you know, he hasn't shown really any signs of losing his mental genius. And I think just on both ends

continues to be the most dominant player, you know, especially come playoff time. So despite any videos of him coasting or whatever at times in the regular season, you ultimately know, you know, he's going to be the best player, most likely, come playoff time. It's interesting because I think the Brady comparison is a good one because sometimes there's two things that having a guy like that does to your franchise, right? One, it gives everybody a belief, like he walks in the door, you're like, okay, we want to win and this guy knows how to win, right? And LeBron is kind of, he's kind of evolved, right? He has. Like last year he just, and I don't know if it was Vogel or if it was him.

But at some point they figured out like, you know, the offense is going to come and go. Let's just be the best fucking defensive team in the league. And they were unbelievable. And he's not nearly as his defense is on the micro, what his game is on the macro, which is he's not as, he's not as good defensively on the ball as he used to be. Can't defend the rim. Sometimes he doesn't, sometimes he has nights where he doesn't move that well. but he's so intellectually ahead of everybody else. He's a great leader,

and he knows to pick his spots and how to hide defensively at times, so he doesn't overextend himself or look bad. Like there's a, you know, so he protects himself from himself, which is amazing. But that's kind of his whole game, right? Like he doesn't go one-on-one nearly as much. He lets Anthony Davis do that. And now he'll, because he's become a much better three-point shooter,

he'll settle for threes, and he'll take halves off of really extending himself, saving himself for the fourth quarter. But there's a lot of Brady to it where even if it's not real, there's just this belief that he's going to win and he's going to figure it out. And that's the Brady thing. Brady is not close to a top five quarterback. And he played like shit in the NFC championship game. But that first drive, they get the ball, they march down the field and they score and they're like, oh, Tom Brady. What do you got?

right and lebrons they're they're very similar in that way in that they they they believe that they're going to win at the end of the day and everybody else believes in them and they're not better but they're so much smarter than they ever were previously even in their career that they're that they're a step ahead of everybody else yeah absolutely and it's you know it's just the IQ is is off the charts you know he's he's the smartest player of all time right now There's stories going around about Patrick Patterson. I remember once forgot a play for the Raptors. And LeBron walked him through their play,

like what the Raptors were supposed to do. He knew it better than Patterson did. And yeah, that's, again, stuff that just doesn't show up in the statute that he knows every single play and every team's playbook. He knows exactly where he's supposed to be, where everybody's supposed to be. And, yeah, I mean, he's like the quarterback defensively, offensively, obviously, that IQ's off the charts too.

And he just manages a game to a T. Last thing. Okay, so how can people get your stuff, your pod, your breakdown? Yeah, just a scout with Brian, scout with a Y. If you type that in on Twitter, YouTube, or the Scott with Brian podcast, those are the three main ways to find my stuff at Scott with Brian. if you are going to tell there's a college kid who's listening i actually have a friend who's a college kid and he wants to be a gm in the league and he studies it he's working for an agent as well

but if you're you're tell somebody all right when you get done with college here's what you should do if you want to be in the league what would it be uh fucking grind that's what i'll say you know like i'm a i'm a five-ten jewish kid that that played high school tennis, like I said, you know, and got to be a full-time traveling video coordinator in every coach's meeting right out of college, you know, and that, yeah, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or say I was better than anybody or anything, but what I tried to pride myself on was, you know, being the first one in the office, last to leave, and just working my ass off. And that's the only way you can kind of make up that gap, you know, if you weren't a player, weren't a tremendous athlete or

anything. So, you know, like sports, ultimately, a lot of that stuff is about the, about work ethic. So grinding. Grinding. Hey, man, listen, I really appreciate to join us. I love the back and forth in some of the DMs we have on stuff. And at some point, let's break bread in person in the future. And this is great. Let's let's do it again as the season rolls on. Thanks. I appreciate your input and your knowledge and you join this on the pot. You too. Thank you. Thank you. Doug, really appreciate you having me. Enjoyed it.

Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. All right. My thanks to Brian. Follow him on social media. He's awesome. Keep the questions coming. We always try and do some NBA, some college, some great personalities. If you missed any of the other ones, there's some great other all balls.

Download them wherever you download this podcast. Remember, my show is 3 to 6 Eastern or 123 Pacific every day on Foxport Trader or Foxport trade.com, the Iheartradio app. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is All Ball. Each of us has a purpose. We are destined to do something meaningful, not only to support our loved ones, but to positively impact our communities throughout the country. What do you think a private Christian education looks like?

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