The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Charles Barkley on Why NBA Should Cancel, Last Dance, MJ Relationship, '84 Olympic Tryouts, NCAA vs. G-League, Zion

Episode Date: May 7, 2020

In this episode, Doug is joined by all-time NBA and broadcasting legend Charles Barkley for an extended, unfiltered conversation on why he thinks the NBA should cancel the season, the The Last Dance good and bad, if he resents Bobby Knight for cutting him from the 1984 Olympic team, why Dream Team II was a nightmare, why he doesn't believe in the G-League model, and his thoughts on his falling out with MJ. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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the hard way on the iha radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast what's up guys this is clivert taylor the fourth and on my podcast the clivert show i'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff like being an internet famous referee we're in the middle of a game this linebacker this linebacker walks up to me he goes a ref my mom wants you to wave at her what Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Rhett. My mama want you to weigh better.

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of college hoops in the NBA and all that's going on. Andy Katz and Jeff Goodme, you can download that. What all of this new stuff means. This week, a little bit different. Charles Barkley, Sir Charles, the Hall of Famer, who of course works for Turner and it's Turner Broadcasting, NBA TV and TNT, and their partnership with CBS in the NCAA tournament, as well as covering the league. I mean, do I really need to introduce them? Like, it's like dumb to do so. We had a a long talk. It was about an hour and, I don't know, 10 minutes long or so. So buckle up. We bounced around. We talked a lot about him, his upbringing, him playing at Auburn. He actually shared with us a story. He said he'd never shared elsewhere, ever shared elsewhere,

about almost not going to Auburn. Wait to you hear where he almost went. That's a tease to make you keep listening. A reminder, we have interviews like this daily on the Doug Gottlieb show. that's a national radio show 3 to 6 Eastern 123 Pacific every day on Fox Sports Radio. You can listen to that in the IHeartRadio app on Fox Sports Radio.com or the same XM series channel that Dan Patrick is on. The 203 and 217, 203 and 217. 203 and 2017. Anyway, here's me catching up with one of the all-time great players and probably the greatest

studio analyst of all time, Charles Barkley. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app. Charles, Winn-N-Nia, thanks so much for taking time. First and most importantly, how's your health? I'm great, brother. I'm great. You know, I wasn't feeling well one day. I took the test. It took forever for it to get back. But I'm doing great. Just a little bored. So just wishing everybody out there the best, man. It's an awful situation. with the health and financially. So bless everybody out there.

If you were in charge of the NBA, what would you do? Like as of today, you can't go back. It's May 6th. There's, you know, the teams that weren't competitive, they don't want to put their guys out there when they're not going to fill up their arenas. The teams that were competitive

probably want to get this thing in. If you're in charge, Charles Barkley is the commissioner. Everybody has to do what you say. What do you do? Well, I'd get the players, obviously the commissioner and the TV networks together and say, guys, this is the deal. The owners, they own these teams forever. We're going to be broadcasting games when all you guys retire. We're going to have to bite the bullet.

We're going to pay you guys for this season, and you're not going to play basketball for the rest of this year. It's not safe for the players. It's not safe for your family. and we appreciate all what y'all do, but it's best that we don't play basketball this year. That to me is the best scenario. Because I think the one thing you cannot happen is, and from a legal standpoint, you can't have one of these players get sick.

And God forbid one of their kids, their wives or girlfriends, their mother or dad, a grandparents died because they passed the virus on. from a legal standpoint, you would be screwed. So I think the NBA, listen, like I say, these owners own these teams, they're going to own them forever. We're going to broadcast games at TNT forever. Let's just pay these guys because they try to play. It's just something unprecedented.

And we pick it back up next year. There's so many different other, I guess the problem with that for TNT and for ESPN, is, you know, how badly would that hurt business, right? Whereas when you look at the documentary, the last dance documentary, it's one reason it's doing incredibly well. Obviously, it's focused around Michael Jordan. But the other is that there's nothing else on,

and the NBA could capitalize on it. Is there any way in your mind to navigate that and still get this thing done? Well, there's no way to do it safe. I mean, you know, there's really no way to do it safe. I mean, they tell you if you get tested for this thing, it might not show up for two weeks. Let's say hypothetically, you test one of these guys. He's clear.

He plays a couple basketball games. He gets his team infected. Like I say, get his wife a girlfriend infected, and God forbid his kids, it would be a catastrophe. And listen, I'm very aware. I'm in a TV business, but we just can't make a bad decision because of money. I mean, and that's really what it comes down to. Are we going to make a bad decision just because of money? And I understand there's a lot of money.

Yeah. I'm very aware of that. But do you make a bad decision for money? And that's good. And I say no. Let me get to the last dance documentary. I know you've been asked about it from a bunch of different outlets. And I appreciate you taking time with me.

When you watch it, what are your honest thought? What have been your honest thoughts going through your mind? I don't think there's anything that surprised me. I hope all these young kids out there realize that, you know, you go back to episode one and two. You know, Michael, when he went to Carolina, I talked about, I just want to be the, I'm going to be the hardest working guy. I'm going to be the best player you ever had.

And then he went to the Bulls when he had a chance to, quote, unquote, the way guys do now, like, no, sit out the rest of the seat. He's like, no, basketball players play basketball. I think that's the one thing these young guys can learn that, hey, it's great to have a brand. It's great to make a lot of money. But at the end of the day, how great of a basketball player do you want to be? So I think that's the one thing. I hope a lot of these young kids get out of this.

And also, the only bad thing about this documentary to me is people getting to see all the bad stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I mean, Doug, you think about this. That team won five or six championships, and they hated each other, and it was strictly business with the front office. It was dysfunctional. And these guys were winning. You hear players talk about all the time, man,

whatever happens in the locker room stays in a locker room. That's because a lot of stuff behind the team sucks. You know, nobody want to hear a bunch of millionaires and billionaires fight and not getting along, but that's the way it is behind the scenes. And you're getting a chance to see, at first hand. What a team to think about this. That team won six championships.

Can you imagine all the crap that goes on behind the bad teams? You know, that's the one thing that I hate is going to get out. They're like, wait, sports are not, like, it's not all rosies and daisies. No, man, there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. You see the players, you're going to see the players fighting and not getting along. And that's the way, Doug, I've been in an NBA since.

1984. I've seen players and coaches fight. I've seen players fight. I've seen players go out to general managers. I mean, like, it's, the, normally that stuff stays in the locker room, but now it's right out there in front of everybody to see. Let's go back to 84. I've heard so many difference. I had Mark Price on my pod. This is two weeks ago, and he said, look, Charles Barkley was the best player at the, at the trials. Um, what, one of the things that, that's missing, and obviously it's not a documentary solely about Jordan or about the 84 Olympic team. Bob Knight was the coach. And Mark Price, you, Terry Porter, like you go through the laundry list of ice, John Stockton, all cut from, from that trials.

What do you remember about going to Bloomington for the 1984 Olympic trials? Well, Doug, to be honest with you, I was the second best player there. I mean, I appreciate Mark. I love Mark. That's a nice compliment. that. But let me tell you something that's funny. So, first of all, there's probably about 30 to 40 to 4 the Hall of Famers who were there.

And we started with 120 players. We went 120, 100, 120, 80, 60, 40, 20, and 16. And when I got cut, it was me, Carl Malol, John Stockton, Terripporte, who were over to the airport together. And the thing is really funny. And I've told this story a couple times. So my college coach talked me into going to the Olympic. truck. I wasn't a big Bobbi Knight fan.

He said, Charles, I need you to go, because I think you're the best player in the country, and I want you to prove it. And I'm like, all right, Coach, those some kind words. He says, no, I've been around for years. You're the best. I believe you're the best player in the country. So I go

there, and I do my thing, obviously. So John Thompson, who's like the greatest man ever in my opinion, he calls my college coach right after I get cut. He says, son, I just want you to know I don't know why Bobby hated Charles Parkwood for no reason. He was the second best player here and he should have made the team.

And I said, wow, John Thompson, who's, like I said, he's a great man. Not a great coach, a great man. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise.

Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice.

radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't really. We don't really that we are in possession of the thing, and we're still chasing it,

and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro.

Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app.

Search Learn the hard way and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me,

he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves,

I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. But get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, I said, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And my coach sets me down, he says, Charles, there's a player in the country better than you. I said, dude, yes, sir, there's just black dude. from North Carolina.

He's the best basketball player I've ever seen in my life. And I said black, like, because he's dark skin. I say, he's black as hell, but he's the best basketball player I've ever seen. And he said, what's name?

I said, his name is Michael Jordan, coach, and we were there for a couple weeks. And like I say, it's probably 30 to 50 Hall of Famers that was there when this thing started. And I'm like, for a week and a half to two weeks, he's like, I'm like, yo, damn, I thought I was the best player here, but this dude is scary.

And that was my first introduction to MJ. And it was us, the coach, this dude, I know, obviously, he's still in college at the time of the coach. I ain't never seen anything like this cat. He's unbelievable. And obviously, the rest is history. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to death. chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more.

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Did you, was there something you said? Was there something you did? Like I had been told like once around you joked around with them, whatever. I don't know. Was there anything you said or did that could have put you? Because I'm actually reading a, I'm actually reading a story right now from the New York Times. It's available online where it says the talk of the trials is Charles Barkley. That, you know, Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley, the talk of the trials and it talks about you coming from Auburn and people not knowing who you were.

So to go from that and obviously like, look, Pat Ewing guy. I mean, the guys that got cutter are amazing, was there anything that you believe you said or did that would have caused

you to be on Bob Knight's bad side? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. You know, obviously I have great respect for him. You know, I've always respected

Bobby Knight because, number one, he graduates players. I never worry about coaches who win. I worry about them graduating their players.

And I've always admired him for that. But it was clear to me. Just the vibe. Like, all the other coaches were friendly. I was actually roommates

with Steve Alford, who was an unbelievable dude. But it was just something about me. He didn't like. And let me. Clearly, I'm not going to do anything to disrespect Bobby Knight

at that time. I'm like, I'm like a young, stupid kid. But he had made up his mind. I was not going to make the team. And, you know,

I didn't go crazy because I had, proved my point, to be honest with you, Doug, because I was trying to decide was I ready for the NBA. To be honest, I was trying to decide. And that was my chance to play against a bunch of these household names.

And I'm like, okay, I'm ready for the NBA. So I left after my junior year. But that was a really important step and stone for me in my life to give me confidence. Because, you know, I'm from a small town in Alabama. and I asked me all I almost did not go to Auburn because you know my friends are like yo dude we're from a small town

we're not as good as these guys and I was actually going to sign with a junior college I don't think I've never told anybody that my mom said you're not sign of no junior college you got to least go to college and get a free education because I wasn't I mean obviously you know obviously later in life you get your supreme confidence that you turn into a hell of a player but you know you're 18 I'm thinking like mom I'm going to junior college because nobody in my hometown

you know it's only a few thousand people there. And we had great sports in all three sports. We had like a really good team of my whole childhood. Not me, but I'm going back too. But we've never had any of players who went to like Division

1. And we had, and so we didn't have that type of company. Like, no, I can play in the SEC or I can play at a big time school. All the guys in my hometown, no matter where they were good at football, baseball, or basketball, nobody really went to a, I think I'm the first that actually went to a big time,

Division I school. Wait, wait, so, but if I remember correctly, okay, and it's Leeds, Alabama's your hometown, you were, you were a late bloomer, right? You were like 5-10 as a junior, and then you sprouted up to 6-4. So, and that, but did you, did you play inside? Would you always thick, or were you a point guard when you were 5-10? Well, I was a backup point guard when I was 5-10. and the best thing that happened

to me was obviously growing, but also my ability to dribble the ball as a backup point guard, once I got to be 6, 4, 6, 5 was a huge advantage because the one thing I realized, even though all these guys are bigger than me, they can't move.

Big guys can't move laterally. They can move one step, maybe two steps. But if you're a big guy, you look at it, and I'm not comparing myself of these guys, you look at a guy like Kevin Durant, Dirtnervinsky, guys like that. you got you if you're a big guy and you can dribble it's a huge advantage i mean that's really what's

changed in the NBA is you know well before well before draymond or any of these guys played you know small ball five or whatever the ability to you know if you can get matched up if you can you're physical enough to defend a big guy and then take him out in the court uh they they can't move they can't move laterally like so what was the junior college you almost went to uh sneed uh wait Sneed State. They had a coach there named, God, I can't even remember his name. Stan Cook. They had a coach there named Stan Cook, who I really liked.

And Stan, I went to visit Stan, and I liked them a lot. But then my mom said, no, no, no, no, you go to junior college, you get hurt or something. You're not going to get a free education. So, yes, Stan Cook was the coach's name, and it was Sneed State. Because actually two of my teammates actually had went to. there, and that's why I was leaning toward them. Wow. He's actually in the Alabama Community College Hall of Fame, just so you know.

Oh, he was a great coach. I mean, they won a lot. And like I said, they had got a bunch of players from my high school, so I felt like, so I hadn't known him for a while. So when I went up there to visit, I'm like, man, I can play at this school. Oh, so he's in the Hall of Fame as well-deserved. He was a hell of a coach and a great guy. You mentioned that you hadn't met Jordan until the Olympic trials.

What was it like for you at Auburn? It's so different now than, you know, but to be at a school that's so prestigious in terms of football, what was it like, what was your experience at Auburn like playing for Sonny Smith? It was great. It was painful in the beginning because, first of all, when you go to Auburn, you've got 100,000 fans for football games, you got 3,000 of basketball.

I'm like, because like when I played in high school, my junior senior year, we were packed. I mean, we took a full crowd on the road. So I'm used to play in front of a big crowd. So I go to Auburn.

We got 100,000 of their football game. And we got 3,000 to 5,000 at basketball game, unless we're playing Kentucky or Alabama. It sucked. And I remember during the preseason, we lost, and I started crying. And,

And this is one of the turning points of my life. So we lost. Because I only lost like four or five games in high school, my junior senior year. So I think we lost the state championship both years I was in high school. And we lost, and I started crying. It's like we're like eight in, we're like eight and now. You know, you play a little cream puff schedule, and then you start playing the big boys. You know how college works.

Yep. And we lose a game, and I started crying. Your first loss was to Tennessee, by the way. You are right? I said, yeah, I'm fine. They said, why are you crying? I said, because we lost. And they said to me, dude, we never win here.

And I said, what? And they said, do, we never win here. We haven't had a 500 record in the last 20 years. And I was flabbergasted. I'm not going to lie. So I went home and just went crazy that night to myself. And I went home the next day I went to practice, guys, we need to have a sit down. We're not going to keep losing here.

I'm not going to stand for this crap. We're going to play better. We can do better. And they look at me like I got three heads. And I said, no, no, no. I'm guaranteeing you guys, we're going to start winning. And we got the $500 in my first year. my second year we got three games, four games over 500, and almost made to NIT.

And then my third year, we made it to the tournament, which is to me one of the greatest accomplishments of my life. I'm like, no, we're not going to keep losing. And to get Auburn to the March Madness for the first time, I consider that one of my best results of my life. When you get to the NBA, to come from Leeds, to go from being five years, 10 as a junior, right? The stories of the Scotty Pippins, which is an amazing story, right? Or the Dennis Robbins, and even Jordan's story of

playing JV as a sophomore, but he was recognized in high school. He was a McDonald's All-American who went North Carolina. What do you remember about being drafted? About being drafted by the Philadelphia 76ers? It was one of the best things that ever happened to me because the most important

person in my career is molded along. You know, Dr. Jay was great to me and Bobby Jones, and Maurice Cheeks and Andrew Tony. You know, Doug, one of the biggest problems we have in the NBA today is when you go to a team, the oldest guy on your team is like 23 years old. You know, at 23, nobody knows anything,

especially how to handle money and fame. Nobody knows how to handle it at 23, 24. But I had all these veteran guys who taught me how to save my money. It taught me how to dress. But the most important person is Moses, because, you know, me and Moses were, he was, he was like a father to me. And I went to his condo one night because he stayed in the same building against me. And I said, Big Mo, why am I?

I said, Mo, at practice, can I come see you tonight? He said, come on up, big fella. And I asked him why I wouldn't get into the play. And he says, Chuck, you're fat and you're lazy. And I'm like, what do you mean? He says, you're fat and you're lazy. He said, Charles, you weigh about, at that time I'm wearing about 2.90. need four, five, somewhere

that, which is what I played. I actually played about 300 pounds in college, to be fair. Lisa Charles, you can get away with that in college, even in high school. You can't play an NBA at 300 pounds. And this guy, who's obviously one of the greatest, met me every morning, every night,

and we started losing weight. I got the 290, 280, 270, 260, 250. I got a little lower. but I had no strength and energy. He said, $2.50 is your weight. But you got one of the goats of all time,

took the time to help a little fat kid from Leeds Alabama, and the rest is history. I mean, if it wasn't for Moses, I would not have turned into a great player because, you know, Doug, you've been around a long time. You've seen guys eat their way out of the NBA, eat their way out of college. You know, I've been in NBA since 1984.

I can name, I won't name, because I don't want to embarrass anybody, but there's probably five or six players I play with. They're probably eight-they-step out to NBA. They wouldn't listen to a veteran guy. I can give you three names that you don't have to say anything. People forget Stanley Roberts, right? He was one.

There was Sean Kemp after the lockout, right? He came back. John Kemp was one of the best athletes in the NBA, came back out of the lockout, and he wasn't in shape, and it ruined whatever the end of his career was. Oliver Miller would be a guy that would be an obvious guy to point to. There are others as well.

I mean, my dad used to tell me, Charles, that I was in the USBL right out of college. And I was playing with, it was Willie Burton and Bubble Wells and a lot of, you know, Willie Burton scored 50 in an NBA game, right? I mean, he was the ninth pick of the draft. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments

that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters, to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife-Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it.

And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys?

This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What?

Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, fam, this Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBroninney. heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves,

I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get to fly. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. You figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But I remember telling my dad all these guys, guys were NBA players and they're playing. We're like an in Oklahoma. I was like, I cannot believe I'm playing with all these guys. He's like, son, there's always a reason, right? There's a reason why they're not there. I'm like, well, what do you mean? He's like, well, why aren't you there? I was like, well, because I can't shoot. Like, all right, well, there you go. You're short. You're white. You can't shoot. That's why you're in the USPL. And then if you go through every guy and there is,

is always a guy who eats his way out of the league. So how did you do other than getting up early and conditioning? Like, did you eliminate like, I ain't going to eat pizza? I'm not going to drink. Like, how did you go from three bills to $250? Well, and the main thing is working out. I mean, obviously, you can't overeat and go crazy, but you can't lose weight without working out. Well, you could starve yourself to death, but you need energy.

You need energy to play sports. So obviously, I'm going to have to eat. But the main thing is, man, I just got, I'm like, first of all, when they stole, once I got one of those checks, I'm like, wait, y'all pay him? to do this? I'm like, no, I've got to get in shape. And then obviously I started having success. I mean, I did.

I'm like, oh, man, I'm getting good because in the beginning I wasn't starting. You know, I'm coming off the bench and not even playing because I couldn't work hard enough. And Billy Cunninghamer was great for me. Like, I'm not going to play you because you're out of shape. But listen, I take it say, it all goes back to Moses

Malone, man. If I didn't listen to this guy, and listen, I don't play with a bunch of guys, not as far as to eating part, But guys who I'm like, yo man, you got to save your money. Yep. You got to learn how to dress. You've got to learn how to play the game.

I says, part of being famous is like being nice to people just in case you need something from them one day. You know, you heard that famous saying, as you better be nice for those people on your way up to the top. But those are the same people you go meet on the way back down to the bottom. And a lot of guys, man, they don't understand. I'm like, people said, man, you always sign autographs. I'm like, yeah, I might need a job on that person one day. You always take pictures and sign autographs. I say, yo, man, you would never have any idea who you're going to meet in life.

So I'm always going to sign autograph. Is it a pain in the air sometime? Of course. But I'm always going to sign autographs and take pictures. Because that's part of it, too. I mean, they're not paying you all this money just to play basketball. They're paying you to deal with all the stuff that goes with being in the line right. If you design, engineer, build, or maintain buildings in California,

you can get free technical training, continuing education credits, and prepare for a range of certifications through PG&E's online classes. Enroll at pge.com slash training. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too,

because when we disconnect from this and connect with this. We reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids.

Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Act Council. What was your first NBA playoffs, you guys went to the Eastern Conference Finals as defending champions and you end up losing to the Boston Celtics. What was, that was prime bird? What was bird like? You know, I've always said bird was the best at Magic and Bird and LeBron. Those guys are probably the best at making players around them better.

You know, Kevin McKell is the best peer player I ever played against personally. I've said that many, many times. but as far as making guys around them better, Bird, Magic, LeBron, those guys are probably the best I've ever seen at making everybody around them better. And Burr's a great dude. He's really quiet.

He's not going to be a social butterfly, but I respect that. He's always cordial and nice, always been like that. But he's not the type of guy who, like he's going to call him, hey, let's go hang out. They're just not in his demeanor. Now, McHale's different like that, parishes like that,

but there's a lot more guarded. You mentioned McHale's the best player you ever played against Y. What was it specifically that when you played against Kevin McHale made him so difficult? Well, I think, number one, he's unguarable. You know, some guys, even great players, like, okay, we can slow him down. But McHale's going to get his shot.

every single time. Every time. You just got, like, you try to play him physical, but he's going to get his shot. And there's not many guys who, like, wait a minute,

they're going to get their shot. Like, you can make life hard on them. And for me, Kevin McKale, maybe because it was my height and my, I was just short, but that guy was the best offensive center.

I don't know if he, I don't think he's better than Tim Duck. I think Tim Duck. I think Tim Duck, around player, but as far as offensively in the post, Ken McHale is going to get, he's going to get his. All right, so if he was the best, who's the guy that has the best reputation that really wasn't as good as his reputation?

You know, I don't know about that, Doug, because I don't, I don't think, listen, every NBA player is not great. I said it's on air all the time. I'm not dodging your question. Yeah. Like, the worst guy on an NBA player is a really good player. Yes. Now, he's not Kobe or LeBron or Michael, but, like, 10, 11 and 12 is pretty good, damn player.

And I think that's one of the things that get lost when we talk about sports sometime. Like, wait, yeah, these guys don't get in the game, but they're really good players. Now, you talked about earlier what separates some guys. Some guys are three inches, 20 pounds, too light to play in the NBA, but they're great backups, and they're never going to cause problems on the bench. That's a lot of things that depend. That's part of playing the game. You give me a guy who's like, okay, this guy, he's a good player, he's solid,

he ain't going to cause no problem. He ain't going to be bad-mouthed to coach or complain about playing time. He's going to work hard in practice every single day, but he's probably, like I say, he's probably three inches too small or he's probably not strong enough. And you see guys like that in the NBA today who's just going to come in, work hard, practice hard, ain't going to cause no problems. That's a lot easier to deal with than a guy who's got a ton of talent who don't know he's not that good. He just got a ton of talent and he's a pain in there to deal with. after the Celtic series two years in a row I believe you guys lost to the Bucks

and it's like there's so many NBA teams that everybody glosses over I had Mark on we talked about the Cavs people forget those Paul Prescy Alvin Robertson Bucks teams were nasty as well why couldn't you guys beat the Bucks well I think two reasons number one we were old

and I wasn't Charles Barkley yet you know I started becoming Charles Barker Barks at my third year and then by that time Doc, Moses, I think we had traded Maurice, Andrew Tony had retired, and we were just caught in no man's land. When you get too old, there ain't nothing you could do. And then, like I say, I wasn't there yet. I was just starting to turn it into Charles Barkley.

But most of the doctor obviously way past their prime. We had traded Maurice and Andrew Tony was retired. So that's why we couldn't beat them. What changed? What allowed you? Was it confidence? Was it just the amount of times you'd played? Was it the fact that those guys, the older guys, had kind of given you more shots?

Like what changed that, you know, your third year in the NBA, you lead the league in rebounding, right? You average 23 a game. Obviously, everything seems to change. What was it that allowed that light switch to go on? Oh, I think, number one, my confidence, you asked the question, my confidence went through the roof. But the main thing, I got myself in, like, I'm at $2.50, you know, for the next 10, 15, 10, 10 years or more. So I feel really good about my game.

I know nobody can stop me. I'm going to get my 10 to 12, 14 rebounds a night, but I'm going to get 20 to 25, and I'm going to get more unless they double me. And I was feeling like at that point, I'm full along. I got confidence in myself. If there's one thing that you want people to know about the dream team,

what would it be? Well, how well we all got along together, how friendly everybody was to each other, how much we respected each other. You know, because, Doug, I got a unique perspective. You know, I played at 962, and I hated it. You know, I didn't want to play in 96 because I wanted somebody else to enjoy the experience. And Lenny said to me, no, I need you to be a veteran. I need you to be a leader on this team. and dudes were complaining about playing time,

guys were complaining about starting, and it sucked for me, to be honest with you. Like in 92, I'm playing with the best team ever. Guys got along well. Chuck Data had two starting lineups. Nobody ever complained. They never complained about playing time. But 96, to me, was a nightmare.

Like I said, we had guys bitchy and complaining. Like, I should be starting. I should be playing more. I'm like, you know, man, everybody can't play. You're playing in the Olympics in the United States. But that was the second thing to swayed me. Because obviously I couldn't bring everybody to Barcelona. But being in Atlanta and, you know, being from Leeds was like two hours away from Atlanta,

it was really nice for a bunch of my friends and family to be able to come over and see the Olympics in person. I mean, because, you know, it's very reality the United States host the Olympics. So that swayed me for 96. but 96, I ain't going to lie, was a nightmare. You have unbelievable patience with Shaq and with a lot of people who come at you for not having won a championship. You wouldn't be as great a player as you were

unless you were an unbelievable competitor. On the other hand, that's the only argument that's ever used against you. When you have to, when you're, and look, you do the self-deprecating stuff all the time. But how does it really feel to look back on an incredible career. You recognize your Olympian,

your gold medalist, you're a Hall of Famer, and yet people will, you know, they'll say, well, you didn't win championships. How does that feel inside?

I don't go crazy, man. It's a team game. You know, I don't understand, I mean, and I understand how fame works. Uh,

I understand how I think, like, you get all the credit and you get all the blame. Uh, I understand that. I'm, Doug,

I wouldn't be successful in basketball. and on TV for 19 years if I didn't understand the BS of the way the thing works. Guys are not going to, and this is not a knock, he's just a great friend. It is not going to do any good for you guys to come on TV and radio

to talk about sets of follows. You know, you guys, and I'm just naming guys now, you know, you guys never say, man, this guy, I'm trying to, Booby Gibson didn't win a championship. You know, I understand when you're famous, like a lot of people, you pay a lot of people bills. And I'm the guy that some people take shots at, but I'm like, you know, man, I'm not out here by myself, but I do understand like, okay, I'm famous.

It's for you guys to make money on TV and radio, you got to talk about me. But in retrospect, I said some of you earlier, that's one. One reason I think they pay you so much money is just to deal with all the BS that you have to deal with. And so I don't take it personally because I can say I know it was a team game, but I do understand how the whole business model works. The last thing, and I know you've got to go, and you've been more than gracious with your time. No problem, brother. Go ahead. Okay.

All right. Well, if we can keep going. We'll keep going. You tried to do the super team thing in Houston at the end of your career. How did that come together? You know, I was very disappointed, number one, that the sons traded me. First of all, we weren't a super team. We were super old team.

We were all past our prime. But I was disappointed that they traded me out of Phoenix. I never wanted to leave Phoenix. But like I said, I had two decent years. Houston. I was done physically pretty much. So I had two... Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays,

the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Welcome to my new podcast. Learn the hard way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about, wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross,

because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines,

as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show,

I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, Hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue 42. A rep.

My mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Cliffer Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed.

And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the game. the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall.

And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball, like, you go through a training camp with that Isaiah, You figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the balls. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Two years in Houston and two years just sucked.

Akeem was done, basically. Scott had a little bit. Well, Scott actually went on and played some more years, but we were just a super old team. We weren't a super team. But we were all past our prime. And I never wanted to get treated out of Phoenix in fairness. Is it, is it, it's kind of interesting. You're from Leeds.

Obviously, Scotty's from Arkansas, Jordan's from Wilmington, you know, so oftentimes the, you know, New York City, L.A., those guys get a ton of the hype. But it is fascinating, Caram Malone from Louisiana, right? Like all these small town kids from the South and, and the amount of success that you guys had in the NBA. And still to this day, the South is considered football country. and it is football country. How is it, though, that so many guys that came from your part of the country have been so dominant in the NBA? Well, man, it just goes to show you.

They're great players. I mean, Larry Bird is from Indiana. French Lake, Indiana. Other than, like, I mean, I think you'd be hard-pressed. Who's the second most important person from French-Lick, Indiana? You'd be hard-pressed to know that. Kenne McHale is from Minnesota. So I just think there's great players everywhere.

I really believe that. And like I say, I'm never surprised or shocked. I'm never surprised. Do you imagine that there's a guy's great as Dirk Noviceky from Germany, that left shrimp from Germany, Tony Parker from France, Genoblee from Argentina, the Gassau brothers. Like, there's just great basketball players everywhere.

So I don't think you can be shocked When you're like, oh, he's from this place I mean, Dirtnevinsky It's the greatest foreign basketball player ever And he's from Germany And you're like, wow, that's pretty amazing I mean, that's really amazing as a matter of fact I actually have an answer for you by the way

Jerry Reynolds, who used to coach the Kings The Sacramento Kings He's from French Lake Indiana So I had to hate this. First of all, first of all, I should jump through the phone and punch you in your head if you're going to claim Jerry Reynolds as a famous person. Now, I love Jerry Reynolds. Hey, I love Jerry Reynolds.

You just said he'd be hard-pressed. He's been great at the NBA for a long time. I think he's still still at money during the King's games. Yeah, yeah. But we're not going to call Jerry Famous. Please stop it. I understand. You understood the point.

that the point was like, I was like, I do, I agree with you're talking. I just, I just typed in French lick, just to see, just for shits and giggles, just to see. And I was like, damn, that's, that's pretty, pretty, pretty amazing. But you are right. You know, I want to say one thing about that. Bobby Knight, so he drove me and Larry Bird off. So that's a nice list to be on, to be honest with you. I just thought about that.

We started talking about French legs. Yeah. I mean, he, he, so I'm on the same list with, Larry Bird. But it's so funny you said, though, because nobody ever mentions that. They're like, I've heard people say, well, Bob and I didn't take Charles Barkley's crap. I'm like, first of all, I wasn't Charles Barkley at the time at all. I wasn't Charles Barkley at all at the time.

But nobody said, well, he did drive Larry Bird off too. I'm like, yeah, he did, but y'all never want to talk about that. But I always laugh when I hear that. You know, I, it's a, you know, it's a fascinating, it's a, it's a, fascinating point. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the, and there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-arm kid carry. Looks like dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but mom has just nailed the perfect car seat

buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter who looks to be about nine or has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off. Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Brought to you by Mitzha and the Ad Council What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest?

Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org.

Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service. and the ad council.

What's the truth on Isaiah? I have no idea, Doug, and I'm not avoiding your question. I want to say this. First of all, I like Isaiah. You probably should have been on the dream team. Michael Jordan never mentioned that to me. Rod Thorne never mentioned that to me.

And I'm disappointed. You know, I've heard some people say some guys on the dream team. Well, some guys didn't want him on the dream team. and they should come forward and say that. But Rod Thorne, when he called me, asked me to be on a dream team, never mentioned Isaiah Thomas, ever mentioned Isaiah Thomas. So I just think his disrespect to Isaiah to act like,

because I don't think I like Isaiah. Was he wrong, not shaking the bull's hands? Of course he was wrong for not doing that. But every time I get a chance to answer that question, I'm like, I want to make it perfect. clearly clear. They never asked me about Isaiah Thomas, period. There was a lot. There's a lot of stuff, though, too. There was the, the, Larry would be just another guy if he was a black eye. There was the magic stuff where they had had a falling out

as well. You know, and you have to maybe wonder if it wasn't just assumed, right? Like, we just assume you guys didn't get it. Also, listen, man, we all say stuff. First of all, I got to say something. I don't agree with Isaiah on the Lara Bird stuff. But listen, man, I think out of all the bitter batters battles that they went through and me went through, you're going to say some things in the heat

at a moment. Like I say, I'm pretty sure I regret not shaking their hands, but we've all said stuff in the heat of the moment. You just lost six, seven games series of these guys two or three years in a row or you got swept or something.

I'm pretty sure, you know, because Isaiah, at times you got to get that. dude credit. I mean, he threw that ball away and came back and won a championship after that. I mean, a lot of guys wouldn't have came back from him throwing that ball with that Larry intercepted.

But I think that we all say stuff in the heat of the moment that we wish we could go back and change and sometimes you can't. Yeah, sometimes you can't. There's a, there's a, it's impossible, it's really impossible to compare errors, right? Because the game is

played so incredibly differently now. But is there, Is there a guy or two that you say, look, I understand our game was more physical. There was a power forward and a center. And so the space of just getting to the rim and the way in which they play now and the rules in terms of hand-checking were different, if you were to say there's a guy or two that their game would absolutely translate to our game when you played in the NBA, who would it be?

Well, obviously, Kobe and LeBron going to do their thing. first of all the great players can play in any era. I think the thing that's interesting, when you talk about different errors, you have to be realistic. Now, you know, we all love Steph Curry, correct? He's a great player and a great man. But from a common sense standpoint,

after you watch his last dance documentary, you have to say to yourself, man, if the persons have to be, have been hitting him like that. You know, that would have changed some things up. I mean, you don't even have to,

like, I mean, if you're just going to be legitimate and be honest and fair, you've got to say, hey, we all love Steph Curry. But if the Detroit Pistons

had to have been hidden him like that, as frail as he is, there would have been like, oh, man, that would have been different. That's not a knock on anybody. That's not a knock.

on anybody. But from a common sense standpoint, you have to say yeah, if the pissons had have been hitting him like that, it would have made some changes in his game. That's totally fair. Listen, when I get roasted to this day because I didn't

I thought he, I thought he would be like a Hornacek type, right? Just because he was such a great shooter, not really a point, not really a two. You know, could he really guard somebody with his body coming in? That was my evaluation of him. And it was, it was wrong.

Part of it was, he's gotten way better. As you said, like, I wasn't Charles Barkley. Like, he wasn't, he wasn't Steph Curry even early in his NBA career, right? I mean, like, it's been well documented that the Golden State Warriors offered him up for trade several times over. So even they didn't know what they had when they had it early on. So, of course, the rest of us shouldn't be faulted if we didn't believe what they had early on or beforehand. Well, you talk about perception and reality. If you remember, they went crazy.

in Oakland when they traded Monte Ellis instead of Steph. You know, that's one of the reasons. Like, you know, some of this stuff, man, you just have to laugh at because people are so full of crap about. I'm very aware. I'm in the NBA when people were going crazy. They're like, why do you trade Steph Curry? You traded Monte Ellis, but people forget that because, you know, they want to be right in this moment. And Steph is, first of all, he has been amazing.

great for the game, but he's a great player and a great guy. But I do always have to laugh that people like, yeah, you know, all these people who are Steph Curry, wearing Steph Curry jerseys, how many of y'all were actually booing? Because there were a lot of people booing and complaining when they traded Monte Ellis instead of Steph. So you just got to laugh at some of the BS of this whole thing sometimes. No, no question about it. Durant has this,

Durant's had this kind of mere curial career. In terms of talent-wise and skill, right, like that dude is unbelievable. I mean, really, a guy at that size who can, as you pointed out, like early on we were talking, big guys that can handle, he can shoot. He's shown that in Golden State, he can actually defend and defend the rim.

Like, there's nothing he really cannot do. On the other hand, there just seems to be this unhappiness about him. And I can't figure out why, that after winning a couple championships in Golden State, there wasn't more happiness that he's still kind of searching. Why do you think that is? Well, clearly he's insecure.

When you're arguing with teenagers, when you're Kevin Durant, you're the greatest basketball players ever, when you're arguing with fools on Twitter, teenagers. To me, that's an insecurity thing. And I don't know what that comes from because he's a, first of all, he's a great guy. but clearly he's got thin skin.

I don't know where all that comes from, to be honest with you. Because, listen, he should be like at peace with himself right now. Because he's already won. He's going to make more money than God the next 10 years or more. And like, yo man, you've already won. You know, you've already won. What are you upset about? and you have to

so it's going to be interesting how he handles the whole New York thing because I tell people, man, until you, it's going to be interesting how him and Kyrie handled the New York thing because that's a different animal right there.

New York is a different animal and it's going to be, I always tell people, oh, no, no, no, you guys, you guys on the West Coast. That's like that old dude in the White House. The West Coast is fake dudes. no no no go to new york philly boston that's real news ain't no fake news coming out of philly new york and

boston like the stuff like like when i got traded to phoenix and some of the things they wrote i'm like man that's a nice thing somebody said it's about me in in eight years even if it was bad it was like the first thing i'd heard i was like wow that's a nice thing somebody said of me in the last four or five years in Philly. And there's a double standard, but the East Coast, it's going to be interesting how they handle that whole New York thing. Yeah, no question, especially because, I mean, if you really get down to it, the Nets aren't really, they're like the ninth, you know,

I think I said, like the seventh most popular professional sports franchise. On the other hand, if something goes wrong or they don't do well, and maybe in their need for attention, the negative stories always far outweigh the positive story. So that's going to be fascinating. I want to go to that Phoenix. Okay, so one of the, here's my, one of my disappointing things with the doc, okay, is that they did

talk about your final series, but they just kind of did like the, you know, basically the end of game six and maybe the triple overtime game a little bit. That series is fascinating because the road team won all but one game, right?

And this is, and people forget, like this is back in the era where teams always dominated at home. And it was just, it was weird. What, what's missing from the description of the NBA final series against, uh, against the Bulls? Uh, I did not have my team ready

to play game one. Uh, the moment was too big for our team. And I think, I take full responsibility for that. You know, it's interesting, uh, because I, when I was watching the documentary, Michael said the exact same thing in game one against the Lakers. That's the only game they lost, that series, but he said, man, game one was too big for us.

And we've never talked about that. And I did not have my team ready. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo.

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Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game.

This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office, Blue, 42. Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker.

Listen to the Cliverts show on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us

on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the fly. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I had played a, I'd been in Philly for eight years. I'd been in big situations before. When we got to the finals, it was bigger, and I didn't have my team prepared. And like I say, it was really funny and ironic when I saw Michael said that in the documentary when he says, yeah, game one against the Lakers, the lights were really bright, too big, but I was not able to pull us back. I was going to plan against Michael, but that's really my only regret is not having my team ready for game one. Game two is a close game.

What do you remember? Every game was close. To be honest with you, every game was close except game one. Game one is the only bad game we played. The other five games could have went either way. And obviously they won three and we won two. But all the games were really, really close games. And like I say, the only thing I'm mad at and pissed it myself about is, you know,

obviously when you got game one at home, you've got to win game one at home because that sets the tone for the entire series. Is there a moment that you look back? You're like, man, if I would have done one, this one thing we would have gotten to seven and game seven at home. Anything was, is there, do you, or is there just not that moment? Just because on the doc, you said, look, I played, I played as well as I could. And I just got outplayed by, you don't, you don't feel terrible about losing to Michael Jordan.

But you're still, again, a competitor and it's years later, is there something like, if this would have happened, the series would have changed? I think that for me personally, there was two series and two plays. And so we were up. I mean, even when Paxson hit the three, they scored seven straight points. I think we were up six. But we called two plays in a row to get me the ball, and they double me with Scott and Horace Grant,

and I had to pass the ball two times in a row. We needed one more basket, and I couldn't get that one basket. Because, like I say, Horace Grant and Scott Pick him on the two best defenders I've ever seen on the 4 or 5 position. And when they double you, and Michael's playing the free safety, I told somebody the other day, as good as that bullet team was to Rodman. And Rodman was a better individual defender,

but Harz Grant was a better safety defender. So when you played against Michael and Scott and Horace, they were like free safety. If you didn't make the perfect pairs, they were going the other direction. So I regretted the fact that I couldn't make one more play. I made the smart basketball play. And I always try to make the smart basketball play.

But those are the only two plays that I regret that series. Yeah, you would have been roasted on first take and undisputed for passing the ball. How dare you pass the ball on your double team to make the smart? I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Yeah, you know, it's so interesting because you know I got a lot of hatred, A hatred for Skip Bayliss. A lot of hatred.

Because I don't think he's a good dude. And I think that he, I really just don't like him at all. But, and I'm thinking like, you know, he always criticizing LeBron from making a good basketball play. I'm like, yeah, like Michael didn't pass the ball to Paxson or Steve Kerr. What they made to find a basket. Like, you always, you know, and it makes me mad when you hear like, no, man, you make the problem. Because, see, I'm smart. enough to go back when I was telling you earlier, like, if I try to score on a double team and

turn the ball over, they're going to say, see, he was trying to be the hero, and he took a bad shot or turned the ball over. See, I'm smart enough to understand how this whole thing works. I don't get caught up in what guys say on morning television, because I know they're just trying to get clicked based. Like, if I try to score on two guys and I turn the ball over, I know how it works. Man, this guy trying to be the hero. He wants to make every big shot. And I'm saying like, yo man, I just saw Paxon

past the ball to Paxon, which was a great play. And I just saw him past the ball to Steve Kerr, which is a great basketball play. The crazy thing about the Paxon thing was, I think he threw it up what to Scotty and Scottie Pippered. Horse Grant had

I would say probably what, like a five footer he could have stepped in, almost laid in. He didn't even look at the Baskin he, he knows. Because I had scouted that playout, because I had looked at tape earlier in the season. So the play was, I wasn't worried about, I actually wasn't worried about anybody but Michael and Paxon. The Paxon and I had some big shots against the Lakers in the playoff.

The rest of the guys, they, they weren't going to shoot it. So the play was, he threw the ball to Scotty. So I jumped the play, because I knew he was going to try to get the ball to Michael coming at a full speed, which is a nightmare. So I jumped to stop him to a passenger Michael. Scott could have had a layup or came close to shooting a layup, but he wasn't going to shoot it. He gave him to Harris, who probably had a layup or a little shot,

the only mistake we made. Because I'm saying to myself, if these guys score, it's still a tie game, and we got the ball with eight, nine seconds to go. But we left a three-point shooter because those other two guys were, I wouldn't worry about those other two guys. Like, okay, even if they score, we got the ball as a tie score. But we did make a mistake leaving a three-point shooter, and that was the mistake.

Yeah, yeah. And Paxson obviously had done it again. That was a third straight year of doing it. It just seemed like that that's how every series, every series seemed to end. The next two years you guys lost to the Rockets. I mean, again, and I know there was a documentary NBA TV did on the Rip City teams, because Jordan wasn't involved, because there was the OJ car chase, right? Because there's so much other stuff.

How good were those Rockets teams in comparison to the Bulls teams? I don't think they're as good as the Bulls team, but they had just an unstoppable weapon. That guy in Houston was able to, first of all, he had shot that they were unguardedable. He was great, the penalty. And they had a bunch of guys. They had Cassell coming off the bench,

Brennan-Maswell, Kenny played well. Clyde Drexel played pretty good, but they just had that one guy that he was just so good offensively. And like I say, it was two seven-game series. Hell of a series, too. But that was frustrating those two losses. Yeah, I'm sure. All right, now I will get to the last couple things. Like basketball is in a weird place now.

And you have, and when we got to work together and in watching you cover the NCAA tournament. You are a believer in the college system. On the other hand, it's not like you don't want players to get what they're worth and get what they're due when they get to the NBA when they achieve things. You now have an option for some. We don't know how many with the G-League select team. You've had some guys go overseas. You have college sports, which they're giving kids more, cost of attendance, and they're going to do some name and likeness stuff. If you had a, if you had a son who's 16, 17 years old, what would you tell them about? about what he should think about, what he should worry about, how he should act, how,

you know, like, if you're, because there's college, there's, there's, there's parents that listen to this and they'll say, well, Charles has lived all these different lives. What would you do? Well, number one, I get mad when people tell young black kids getting a free education is a bad thing. It drives me crazy. I really do. It really drives me crazy when you tell a black kid. It's like, oh, you're just getting an education. I'm like, yeah, that's a real deal. So that's the first thing that pisses me off. Second, we only talking about a couple of guys.

I mean, we talk about a very small percentage of guys who are going to go on and make it in the NBA, like left to 1%. And now we're going to ruin the whole business model of all the other kids who are going to college and getting a free education. The likeness thing is interesting. I think it's going to build a lot of resentment. between players, because only one or two guys

going to be getting endorsements. Let's be realistic. Only one or two guys, and most guys ain't going to get endorsements or commercials or anything or sell their likeness, but one or two guys are going to make, I don't know how much they're going to make,

but there's going to build some resentment and jealousy in there. You know, let's take a college football team. Yeah, everybody's going to buy the quarterback and the running back in a wide receiver jerseys. But if I'm a big fat offensive lineman, and I'm doing all the work for the quarterback

and a running back, and I'm not getting a dime, and my man's making an extra $300,000 in jerseys, and he's got a card deal. You don't think I'm going to be pissed? Yeah, I'm going to be pissed. I don't like the G-League model. I was wondering what the NBA's angle on that G-League thing was. I'm thinking, like, first of all,

you know they only announced one salary on one kid. Yeah. They said, well, we're going to pay this one team? kid $500,000. But the other kids, they're like, well, they're just going to sign with the G League. I'm like, I know they're not going to pay them all $500,000 because, you know, they always got an angle. And then I said, well, there's got to be another angle.

I think, because if I'm a kid, it's better for me to go to Auburn, you know, Kansas, UCLA, Kentucky, Michigan State. A lot of easy me to go there and live there for six months where I got three meals day. I'm going to be on national television three or four days a week or I'm going to Fort Wayne Indiana and I'm like, no,

the NBA is not going to put these studs in Fort Wayne, Indiana. No disrespectful Fort Wayne. Right. And then the thing come out about the select team. I said, oh, they're going to put, they're going to cherry

pick the best players and put them in L.A. a big city because I was like wait a man they're not going to take all these players and put them in these little crappy towns and play

Mildo League and ride around on buses and fly around on coach they're not going to do that and I'm saying no I know the NBA well enough they're not going to do that and I said oh I see now they're going to have a G league

select they're going to have other players who ain't going to make it in NBA. They're going to have them playing in crappy cities, but the guys they think are top prospects, they're going to put them in a select team. I knew they had an angle. It just took me a while to figure it out.

Yeah, I guess my issue, though, is that there's a bunch of different levels to it. One, I just believe that everybody needs a chance to be away from home, but not a professional, right? A true professional. There's just, that's a really hard, even, even if you're making half a million and even if you just need. Doug, first of all,

let's get one thing straight. That kid ain't going to make a half a million dollars. He's going to make, by the time he pays his taxes, pays his agent, number one, they're going to put all those kids in L.A. You know how expensive it is in L.A.

You know, they probably go have to bring a mom and dad and a bunch of other people with them. They're not going to sit in a 17, 18-year-old kid to L.A. and now that little $500,000 ain't going to be nearly enough for these kids. I mean, think about that. Like I say, once they pay their taxes,

we're talking $250 somewhere in there. Like I said, you've got to pay your agent. And now you're going to have to bring a bunch of people with you because, like, wait, I'm not sitting my kid to L.A. And let him live by himself. So I'm bringing everybody. Now all that little chump change is gone. I'd rather send my kid to Calipari, Pearl, Bill Seff, Roy Williams,

Larry, Mike Cheselsky for six months. We're only talking six months. I know my kid going to have a place to stay every day. He's going to get three square meals a day, and I ain't got to worry about his safety. That, to me, is a better plan in his G-League thing. Well, the other part to it, though, is that there's, there's, there's, different parts to it. They're going to play games, but they're more like exhibitions.

Like, I want to know how you, I want to know, one, how you fit into a team and a team structure, right? As a, it's a delicate thing. Even if you're a superstar walking into a team structure with other guys that played college basketball, you have not. Like, how do you deal with that? That's not something you have to do when you're on a G-League select team. You just kind of play.

And that's not what real basketball is. There's also no winning and losing, like learning how to win. as you pointed out at Auburn, right? Hadn won forever. You guys get the 500, then 15 and 13 in your second year, then you win 20 games and go to the NCAA term of your third year. You're like that learning and not just learning how for you to win, but to get everybody else around you to win.

We're like skipping steps on this thing in terms of what's about. I 100% agree with you. And like I say, are you going to turn these kids to loose in L.A.? Are you going to practice in the morning? Now they've got all these free time. At least if you go to college for students, six months. You're in some type of structured environment.

The parent, the mom and dad don't have to worry about you. I think that's a better model to select, like I say, and also, you don't have these other guys in the G-Leaks trying to kill these young kids. Like, oh, you're the number one high school player in the country. You know, I'm trying to feed my family, too. I'm coming for your head every single day. I'm trying to get to the league. I know the league is trying to make it where you can go and we've got to put prop you

up on the elite team. But if I'm a guy playing on one of these other team, like, oh, I'm playing against the number one player, quote, unquote, in the draft, I'm going to get him. I mean, it just opened up a wild stuff that I think is not necessary. And let me tell you, my biggest problem with it,

other than LeBron James, even Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett, not of these kids are ready for the NBA after one year of college. I would love to them say longer. I know that's not going to happen, but none of these kids are ready for the NBA right away anyway. Why, you brought up the education and there's, there's no bigger factor in

the socioeconomic structure of our country than education, it really divides how much you're going to make. And I find it fascinating that the original fight was for equal education. If you go back to segregation and when they finally put schools together, it was you're just trying to give somebody a fair shot and give them an equal education. We still aren't there with our public schools, elementary, middle, and high school. We're still not there. But this can even out some of the structure, right? Because if you get a college degree, your kids are more likely to get a college degree, you're more likely to live longer, be more educated, et cetera, the people you're around start more businesses. I kind of don't understand why there's not more successful African-Americans like

yourself that understand that value of the education. They get kind of caught up in the, hey, we should be making more money immediately instead of kind of that long-term play. Why do you think that is? Well, because unfortunately, our black kids are brainwashed to think they can only be successful through athletic entertainment. You know, most of the famous people they see are athletes and entertainers. Now, the one thing that I've done, I just gave my fourth million dollars to historical

black colleges. that's four I've given a million to. And I'm like, none of this money goes to sports. This is strictly about black education. And when I meet with these kids and talk to them, I say, hey, no, no, no. We're not going to talk about Michael Jordan. We're not going to talk about LeBron. We're not going to talk about J.Z.

We're going to talk about doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, private, and policemen. And that's the thing I'm doing behind the scenes. But like I say, most of the black people, these kids, they're all rich and famous and we have lost the perception of what a free education is and that's why I keep railing against the system the NBA is going to cherry pick the best athletes

so like I say they are such a small number I wish and let me tell you something the NBA the NCAA they have a bunch of bumbling fools they suspended guys for taking an extra pair of sneakers to suspending a guy for taking having lunch with somebody, that's why they're asinine.

We need to get some people running these sports who got a little bit more common sense. I mean, suspending guys, because they get extra sneakers and extra benefits, a couple extra meals here or there. That's anathine and stupid. Yeah, I just, it's fascinating to me, though.

You bring up, like the HBCUs, there was a movement in the 70s for some of the best high school players to play. Ivy League, right? And the Ivy League in the 70s was, like James Brown, of course, who's famous broadcaster, like he was a great player at Harvard. And there was kind of that movement then. I do wonder why there has not, there's never been a movement for some of the best young black players. Like, look, if you're only going to go to school for a year, why not go to an HBCU, right? Well, why not go there?

One, one, they don't have any money. They don't have great facilities. and you're not going to get the visibility. That's very simple. I mean, when I visit these, the four historically black cars I gave a million dollars to, they got awful facilities, awful facilities. But like I say, listen, how much notoriety did,

excuse me, Zion get for six months at Duke? A lot of people thought he might be the number one draft pick, but after six months at Duke, he probably made an extra $200 million. You got these guys talking about $500,000, which is Trump changed after taxes, and you start trying to live on,

Zion made, like I say, the money he made at Duke, that's real money. Going to the G League and living in L.A. on $200,000 a year, and you've got to bring everybody, and your family with you, that ain't, that ain't good to me. That's not a lot of money to me or you.

Can Zion become what you were? You know, first of all, I think he's a lot more explosive. It just depends on the injuries. Hey, Doug, you've heard this a thousand times. The best ability is availability. Yeah, I mean, he's, I mean, there's just a lot of you. And you're, you also do a good job of. not take you were pretty explosive. I mean, maybe not as vertical as he was, but, I mean,

six or days you were dunking on guys, especially after you lost weight, even before you lost Wade, you were jumping, jumping to the moon. Does it simply come down to the weight for him in terms of his ability to be available? You know, Doug, it's interesting. I don't know him. I root for him because he seems like a great kid. He doesn't look fat to me. No. So he might get, like I said, I want to know. He needs to be. He needs to get with some serious professionals and see what the perfect wheat for him to play at. But it doesn't look like, like, but I don't, like I say, it's just going to depend on his health,

but he's got a unique body, and man, he's explosive. So it's going to be fine to watch him in the next few years. All right. Last thing, I've taken up way too much of your time. I think what's going to happen after this documentary is there's still going to be Team Jordan and Team LeBron guys, right? For whatever reason, we can't, we just, I think political TV has made us to where we have to have one side of a debate, and that's where the sports TV has come into. But you've covered it, you've played it, you've done essentially everything you can do in terms of the world of basketball.

Jordan LeBron is, are they so different you can't compare, or would you say Jordan is the best basketball player ever? Well, for me, Doug, I've always said I thought Kobe Bryant was closer to the, Michael than LeBron. I think LeBron is closer to magic. Magic, yeah. And first of all, that's clearly not a knock. If you want a guy who's going to kill you to win,

Michael and Kobe are the guys. If you need a guy to make everybody around better, LeBron, Bird, and Magic, they're the guys. They're going to make everybody around. them better. So I'm never going to say anything bad about LeBron because he's one of the greatest man we've ever had in the NBA. But that's the way I do it. Michael and LeBron, they just, Michael and COVID, they're just killers. They're going to do whatever it takes to win. They ain't worried about

their teammates, teammates, they ain't worried about their friends. LeBron is going to be magic and bird. He's going to make the proper basketball play. If he has to score a lot, he's going to do it. He has to rebound, he's going to do it, or he's going to make sure Kyle Corber, Boobie Gibson, he's going to make sure they get open for wide open threes. That's the difference in the guys, in my opinion. You told the guys in Chicago that you and Mike still aren't close. You're not talking anymore because of, but it's only because of what you said about about who he surrounds himself running the bobcats, now the Hornets. You know, Doug, I really regret that because the clowns

on the networks are talking about that and they really pissing me off because number one, we should not be having a conversation with two dudes not talking with not Prince Harry and William, you know, but yes, the answer to question,

yes, but I'm really a little disappointed that the guys on the other networks are making this like they're having discussions. Like, number one, I want to apologize to Michael for even saying it because he don't have time for this crap. He's a new dad, and he's running the bobcat. Well, he's not doing anything right now. But I hate that they're trying to make it. It's just two dudes who have a

disagreement. We can debate who's right or wrong. But I'm disappointed that they're trying to make it a big story. Well, I don't know. I mean, you're two of the greatest basketball players in the history of the sport. You were incredible friends. You know, you shared this bond of not only being teammates, but how many times you played golf together, you know, and I do think it's, and you know, as much as, you know, I, it's not like you said anything and you divulge any personal information, right? Like, it's one thing if you said something personal or you took a shot at him, but it's not necessarily a shot when you're doing your job.

That's the part that it's like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Especially when. I'm pretty sure that, and you've been in the business a long time now, there's some guys who you like, who've probably said some things about who got back to you. and that's just the way this business works, brother. No, no question. No question about it. But no one that I would say I have that long a stand.

It's made some relationship. And I'm, you know, like I'm far less famous and successful than you are. And yet I've said plenty of shit that people don't like. And, you know, I know, coaches that will not, will not come on shows me, will avoid me in person. I think it's different when you share, you know, you share that type of bond and friendship. All right. last thing. I promise, swear to God, it's the last thing. The golf swing. Was it at any time smooth, and then there became this mental, mental

block? Like what, or has that always been there since you started playing golf? No, I used to be a great player. I used to be a single-digit handicap. I used to break 80 all the time. And then I got traded to Phoenix. I'm like, hey, being an eight-nine handicapped, not going to work out here against Dan Marley and these guys. so I screwed up my swing, taking lessons from every time Dick and Harry in the world. And I just, I don't know what's going on now, but I used to be a really good player, but I started taking two-minute lessons and messed up my swing. That's crazy.

The mind is so powerful. You know, mine is so powerful. Hey, you know, it does. It happened to better players to me. I mean, you look at no disrespect. These guys, Ian Bacon Fitz had to quit because he's got the driver yips. David DeBal was number one in the world and he lost it

I'm just glad it's not I'm just glad that I can still play and have fun it I mean it drives me crazy sometimes but hey man mentally remember Chuck Knobloch couldn't throw the ball from second base I mean sometimes you get something mentally and it's just over

Have you tried to hip hypnosis or Yeah yeah hey Doug that doesn't work I just got a good night's sleep I just got a good little power nap in That sucked. I went to L.A. and got hypnotized. And all I did was get a good nap.

It sucked. Waste of the hour of my day. I mean, is there anything left to try to fix it? Like, are you just giving up? You're just like, this is why I'm just going to play and have fun.

Smoke a couple of cigars. Have a few drinks and relax. Who introduced you guys to cigars? Who got, because you guys are all. Michael. Michael, Michael's the first guy to start smoking cigars when we play golf

back in the 80s. and then who introduced him? I guess probably his dad, right? I think his dad was a smoker. I might have been Amar Rashad. I'm not sure. Those cigars I play golf with all the time who smoke cigars. Charles, you're the best, man.

Listen, I'm so glad you're healthy. All right, brother. Hey, man. You take care of yourself and be safe. All right, brother. Thanks so much. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific.

All right, I want you to digest that. Feel free to tweet me out a question or comment at Gottlieb's show. Hope you enjoyed it. You always enjoy child. I'll say this about Charles Barkley. He is a genuinely good person. He engages with you. He has that unique genesis qua that allows him to lock in and remember little things about every person in the room.

It's like senatorial. And yeah, do we at some point, at two different points in our life, can we contradict ourselves? Of course. But you grow and you mature and you learn different things. And sometimes your opinion changes. I think that would be my defense of Chuck. if you think he's ever been hypocritical. He's not perfect, but who actually is?

He's self-deprecating almost to a fault. And every time I'm around him, he makes, the thing he talked about with bird, magic, and LeBron making people better, that's what Charles Barkley does in broadcasting. So my thanks to Charles for joining me. I'm Doug Gottlie. Remember, you can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show 3 to 6 Eastern, 123 Pacific, Fox Sports Radio, the IHeart Radio app,

or SiriusXM Channel 203 or 2. 17. Thank you so much for downloading, listening, subscribing to Alba. Are you an architect, contractor, or engineer looking for more knowledge about energy efficiency? Here's your opportunity to fuel your future. PG&E's energy centers offer more than 500 free online classes. Get practical insights, continuing education credits, and prepare for a range of certifications. From industry experts through live webinars or over 80 on-demand classes, enroll at pge.e. That's pge.com slash training. That's pge.com slash training.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where sports slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to SportsSlic. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more,

follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week

my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform. We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple

podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a

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This is Cliver Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, A, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What?

Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Wreck. My mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast.

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