The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Dame Doing Damage; Former Penn State All B1G Guard Pete Lisicky on the Good, Bad, and Ugly From 11 Euro Seasons

Episode Date: August 13, 2020

In this episode, Doug discusses Damian Lillard exploding for back-to-back 50+ point games after beef with Paul George and Patrick Beverly, and why no frills "hoop guys" are thriving in the bubble.Gottlieb is joined by former Penn State 3x All-Big 10 guard Pete Lisicky on his hoops background growing up in Pennsylvania, thriving at non-hoops power Penn State, and shares some of the good and hilarious bad from 11 professional seasons in Europe..Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

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Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1800 Flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values. To order today, visit 1800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. What up, your boy, Doug Gottlieb here. Welcome in. This is all ball, all basketball all the time. My guest this week is Pete Lysicki. Pete was three-time All-Big Ten, legendary player in Europe.

Now he does financial advising in, I think, Scottsdale. He's going to join us. Some awesome stories about playing overseas and sometimes getting your money and sometimes not getting your money. Our thoughts on the college system is thoughts on Penn State and what happened there in the football program and did he know anything about it? Like there's a lot I want to dig in with.

Plus, we got some talk about nowadays in the NBA. Speaking of nowadays in the NBA, dude, Damien Lillard, 51, 61, maybe Pat Beverly shouldn't talk shit to that line, right? That is rattling his cage. much the way he rattled Kevin Durant's cage. Remember they, don't you know who I am? I'm Kevin Durant. And then he goes and drops 50 and 45 in the last two games.

So, look, I think Lillard's awesome. He's an amazing shot maker. I thought Dallas was embarrassing with their defense, specifically Christos Prasengis. They just went out time and again. And it wasn't that he wasn't effective. It's that one, he looks far less athletic than he did before he hurt his knee. And two, just didn't look competitive at times,

just dying behind, you know, Nerkich who's posting him up or pushes him around. Just really, really soft, really soft. But Lillard is amazing. An amazing shotmaker, when he gets to the line a ton, that's when he really eats. You look at when he had 60 early of the season, 16 free throws, when he had 61,

he had 18 free throws and made all 18. So some of it is he's as great as shooters he is. It's got to get to the free throw line. And when he does, he obviously makes a ton. It also points to the fact that he had time. was not playing that well this season. I know they had injuries to Collins and a Nurkich, but he wasn't playing that well.

And that's one of the reasons that, you know, even before and after those injuries, they struggled so mightily. But he's been amazing. I think the guys that are all about ball have been really, really good. That's, I mean, you look at T.J. Warren. He's just a bucket getter.

You look at, and any of these guys are on the all bubble team, right? They're just, they're guys that are all about basketball. And for people who keep asking, well, why are they letting, you know, hangers, honors and friends and family down there? They've been down there for two months. Now you're getting the slog, you know, you need a little bit of a distraction because I have been told by some people down there, it's a little bit boring and a little bit mundane. But that doesn't stop Devin Booker from lighting it up. That hasn't stopped Damien Lillard from lighting it up or T.J. Warren from lighting up.

Those guys, even Michael Porter Jr. has been, you know, when guys. guys get to cut away all the nonsense, noise, and distraction, just play basketball, their talent comes out. We do have a tendency to chase box scores. Lillard's a worthy box score, but sometimes we only focus on who scores the most points. Obviously, Lonzo has been disappointing. I think Zion's been disappointed. That whole Pelicans thing, but when Lonzo really doesn't play well, is the point guard,

can't shoot, not making plays, doesn't look sharp at all. And he's a guy that you would think all about basketball, cut out any of the home stuff. He should be great. he hasn't. That's been alarming if you're Pelicans guy, you know, and thinking they're going to turn the corner in the future, not just Zion's weight problem, but Lonzo Ball's regression, if anything, in the bubble. All right, we'll get to more of that. I'll give you some thoughts on the Lakers and whether or not they'll have a problem with the Blazers upcoming. But let's dig in on a

great conversation with Pete Lassicki. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app. Okay, so Pete Lassicki joins us. He's a Penn State legend, a Euroleague legend. And I would say it's funny, you sent me the video of when we played against each other in Las Vegas in the summer of 1993. I don't know if that was, I'm trying to think of that as the north of the south gym. What was the name of your, What was the name of your AAU team at time? We were the Philly.

It's not where they do the NBA Summer League now, the newer gym, that's for sure. No, no, no, no. But north and south, that's where all the, that was where the big, it was the national, John Farrell's national championship was. That was what that tournament was. That is correct. All right. Who is on your squad?

Oh, gosh, you're taking me back. Of note. Of note. I mean, if you want to shout out your boy or whatever, that's fine, your boys or whatever, that's fine. Johnny, Johnny Miller was, no. played originally at Temple and then transferred to Clemson or vice versa. We had Travar Johnson to play to LaSalle. We had, I would say, of all the AAU teams I played on, maybe not the biggest depth of talent.

And you guys maybe had on paper and on the floor evidence of that with the amount of talent. What's interesting was, and so our team had J.R. Henderson. We had Chris Don Johnson. They both played at UCLA, obviously, Chris Johnson. We had Tony Gonzalez, who was a stud. I'm trying to think who else we had that was that year. Well, you somehow had Charlie Miller, who was from like in Florida. Yeah, we had Charlie Miller.

And played at Indiana. Yeah. Yeah, so Fluke stayed with us. Actually, that's Frank Martin was the reason why. Frank Martin, and he was an assistant coach at Miami Senior High School. and what's his name, Shaky Rodriguez was the head coach, and my dad knew Shaky, whatever,

and so Fluk stayed with us. Yeah, there you go. So, yeah, we had Charlie Miller. That's funny, I forgot. Charlie was really good. One time we had, like, two summers before, we had Ronnie Henderson, who went to LSU.

Yeah, and Romod Rubechenko is from the Ukraine, and my dad had known, you know, Dale Brown for forever. And Dale had basically, you know, given my dad both with the idea of, you know, how you steer them towards LSU, I guess, or I think I don't know if they were, they weren't already committed. But Roman ended up going to LSU. I'll never forget. I came home from a basketball camp, like, and it was a superstar basketball camp in Santa Barbara. And they were both in my house. And Roman, who's from the Ukraine, was like, hello, my name is Roman. That is Ronnie. He is from Mississippi. I cannot understand a word he's

says. I mean, I have all my experiences of trying to speak English, but then I tone it down for non-English native ears so that they can get my gist at least. Yeah. Okay, so you grew up Allentown, right, with like seven brothers and sisters? That is correct. Big family, and people always ask, are you Catholic or Mormon? And yes, we're Catholic, but just growing up, everybody had big families.

So that didn't seem so abnormal. So, and super athletic family too, right? Like your brothers are Hoopers, your sister was a cheerleader. So give me the family dynamic of what it was like growing up in Allentown in the 80s with your family. Well, I won't go into the Billy Joel song, but the, yeah, I mean, growing up, it was super competitive just to get, food at the dinner table with my mom made certain meals you knew that there was going to be a fight that night. Perogis?

Did you guys make parogis? Because you're now in Pennsylvania. I feel like everybody in Pennsylvania has to eat pierogies. Oh, I was recently asked what's my favorite food, and I'm pretty sure I said parogis. It's just something that you can't get outside of the Leia Valley with good quality. But yeah, growing up, again, it was, I'm the only mistake in the family, so I'm five years after my sister. They were just going to have my three older siblings after they had.

had me. They said, well, you know, maybe Peter needs a playmate. My younger twin brothers were born. And after that, they said, oh, what the heck? And they had my two younger sisters. But the, again, the dynamic growing up, I mean, it was a different time. But sports was, whatever was in season, that's what we were playing. And also because there were so many of us, our mom was adamant about get out of the house. So, you know, we learned how to play together. We learned how to play whatever was available. So I gave the example. I gave the example. example recently, we used to crush a can and then we would play foot hockey. So we'd set up goals and just whatever to keep busy. But for sure, you know, going through my siblings,

my oldest brother is seven years older than I am. He played college basketball at University of Scranton. And they went to the Division III Final Four twice while he was in school. My second oldest brother played football at University of Pennsylvania, so not Penn State, but the Ivy League school. My older sister had great high school teams. She's 5-11, was a very good basketball player, but just she said that was enough after high school. My younger brother, Gabe, was a scholarship player

at East Tennessee State in the Southern Conference. And you said my sister was a cheerleader. Well, it was actually my younger brother, Gabe's identical twin Alex was a cheerleader at Penn State. And then at North Carolina, he transferred. So super athletic, he could do 10 backflips in a row where he's the only one in the family that could do that. That's crazy. And then youngest sister, of note, you know, just talking about athletics, my youngest sister, Mary,

still has some different records at Georgetown. So she had some really good years, although as a team, they didn't really do much. You know, when you have Yukon and league, it's really tough. Why did you go to Penn State? Why did I go to Penn State? Coming up, yeah, I started getting letters right after an AAU tournament in the summer between eighth grade and ninth grade. So I had letters from all kinds of schools, and that doesn't mean much, but once I had

a really good freshman year, and then I played in a tournament down to Philadelphia in between freshman year and sophomore year where I scored 37, and every college coach was there. This is held in Kansha Hocken every year still. It's called the DeNafrio Classic, where a lot of regional A.E. teams come in. And after that is really when that thing started to blow up. I got invited to the Nike camp as an underclassman. That's where I was teammates with Rashid Wallace and Alan Iverson and Jeff Shepard from Kentucky. I could go on name and names.

But that was where, hey, I hung tough. I played pretty well at that. So in my eyes, you know, I proved to myself I can hang with the best, but, you know, I still got to get better. And so from my older siblings process of looking at schools, I had a great type of example set for me that I knew, okay, I have to be involved in this and not just let the colleges fight over me. I want to be, you know, a part of the decision-making process and not just, you know, have basketball controlling me. So I was whittling it down to, okay, what are the schools that, one, you know, they have a great reputation for academics, who are the school that have stability, who are the schools that have a great point card? I always kind of knew like, hey, I want to play with somebody that will pass me the ball. And also that it was in a major conference.

And so I whittled it down to one or two schools in all of the five major conferences. And Penn State was the Big Ten school. And that was especially looking at the other list of schools, Villanova or UCLA or Florida. You know, you'd say, well, why Penn State? Especially back then, there was absolutely no tradition. There was absolutely no basketball history at Penn State. They went to the final four in 1954.

That was it. And so the reason was they were joining the Big Ten. Danny Earl you may know Danny is the best so Danny and I were teammates a few times in the Sunny Hill League in Philly in AAU teams

and I knew that he was committed to go there and so that that also helped kind of lean me in that direction but I got to a certain point where it came down to either I'm going to stay close to home and play for Penn State

or I'm going to go to a national powerhouse with a tradition and maybe, you know, every year have another All-American or, you know, somebody that's really good coming in at my spot. But the other choice was UCLA at that time. And at that time, it was Jim Harrick and Mark Godfried was kind of the point man for my recruitment. Five guys, Dougie. We recruit, we play the best five guys regardless of the position. UCLA high post offense, not the only offense, just the best, right?

Like, it's a great day to be alive, Pete, considering the alternative. That was Herrick's line when he called you. Harrick, I only spoke to a few times, but yes, I remember he had a certain way of speaking. But again, Godfrey was the head man. For me, he was like, hey, I kind of identified with him. He was down to earth, to me at least. And, you know, I knew that UCLA had a great team, and they had Ty Sedney. To me, watching him play, I'd be a great guy to run with.

So again, it fit a lot of the parameters that I set out for myself. And when it came down to it, I just said, you know what? Penn State was the first school to officially offer me a scholarship as a sophomore. They said, we don't care if you tear your ACL, whatever happens in the next two or three years. We want you here. And that commitment early on was meaningful to me. You have an unbelievable career at Penn State, right? and for people who don't recall

three-time all Big Ten at Penn State you guys went to the tournament obviously in 96 what was Jerry like to play for Jerry Dunn liked to play for? Well Jerry took over because the original coach

Bruce Parkill walked away a month before the season started and people had all kinds of conspiracy theories is why he did it but man you could tell the story I give is we beat Michigan my freshman year they had Ray Jackson and Jimmy King left over, but then they had Maurice Taylor, they had Dharod Ward, they had an amazing team, and we beat them by 20. And there were a couple of turnovers in the last couple of minutes of that game. So when we came into the locker room and Bruce was livid and he was just not happy that

we had beaten Michigan for the first time in history, you know, that store was like, man, he just was such a perfectionist. He was so stressed out, it seemed all the time. And I think he'll admit to that. And really, that's the reason he gave was that he just was burnt out. And there might have been some family things, too. He had gone through a divorce. And his daughter, Katie was, you know, splitting time between him and his mom or her mom.

So again, Bruce walked away. Jerry, who was Bruce's longtime assistant took over. And I'd say, you know, from that point on, I took a big quantum leap from my freshman year to my sophomore year in terms of my confidence. Right. There was a lot of things coming, you know, I played with all those. guys, like I said, in high school and against them and saying, hey, you know, I feel like I can do this. But then you get to college. And you've got to deal with so much. I mean, from the first week of orientation to, you know, living away from mom and dad, to eating the right things on the

day-to-day basis, getting the class on time, making sure you're doing your homework, getting the study hall. I mean, every day from 630 a.m. to 10 p.m. at night, I had to be somewhere except on Sundays. And even on Sunday at night, we had study hall. So my oldest brother, you know, from his time at a Division III school, he said, look, if you can handle this schedule, if you can do all of this, you'll be able to handle anything in life. And I absolutely be looking back at what he said to me because I was able to handle it,

but the day after my freshman year ended, we lost in the consolation game of the NIT, I got mononucleosis. Yeah. So, like, in other words, like, I gave it everything I had. And the day after I, and I never went out. I had no social life, really, my freshman year. I was like, all right, you know, the springtime starting. It warms up in state college above the freezing point of water.

I was like, all right, I'm at least going to go to a frat party on a weekend, right? And I get mono, and I was toast. I lost 15 pounds. And maybe I'm going off on a tangent here. But when I came back from recovering from mono, I was stronger. I went on a Big Ten tour of Japan. played well under Randy Ayers on that trip with some other good players. And I was like, you know what, I got it.

I know what to do now. And so sophomore year, we had such an amazing, we had three fifth year seniors. We had such a depth of talent on the team. Calvin Booth was starting after his redshirt freshman year. If you're not, if you know, Calvin's playing 10 plus years. Well, you'll say, Glenn Secundo, who's a Syracuse transfers after John Amici leaves. Right? You got it.

You got it. Secundo was, you know, fringe NBA player. You know, we had just great leadership. And again, even if Bruce Lee, maybe not at the NBA level, but various levels beyond the NBA. And so to have that on a divisional basketball team,

that says a lot. But again, you know, for shooting, for defense, I mean, we had the Big Ten leading shot blockers sitting behind us. He was only 205 pounds at the time. He still had to put on some weight. But we had a multifaceted, talented team. And I was our leading score.

I really, I never had to put the ball on the ground. We had a motion offense where we passed, we moved. I think we were leading the country in three-point percentage that year for quite a bit of the year. And even though I have... Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life.

mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because. of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games.

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Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app, Search learn the hard way and listen now. A bit of a downturn at the end of the year.

I ended up shooting 48%. That led me into being named honorable, mention All-American that season. I got invited to the under-22 national team tryouts, which was formerly the Olympic team. After 92, though, there's always the pros, the dream team, dream team two, et cetera. Right.

But, you know, I went out to Colorado Springs, played very well in the three-day tryout, played with some great point guards. So being a West Coast guy, Cameron Dollar, I remember they had me together with Cam. And just for that game or two, I made everything. And so, you know,

over a bunch of guys that everybody would recognize their names, I got named to that 15-man squad. So, you know, teammates with Tim Duncan, teammates with Chonkey Billups and Paul Pierce, they're just an amazing group of guys. And, you know, I'm just, going along for the ride in some respects, but I'm also like, all right, I want to get better. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts,

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Brought to you by Nidza and the Ad Council. When you talk about being better, what specific, when you went home and you'd work out, like, what did you do to make yourself a better player? I was recreating the situation where I was uncomfortable. So, you know, being in a one-on-one on the wing with Chauncey in Colorado Springs. I remember that distinctly. Or, you know, catching the ball and here comes a guy that I know. know is longer than I am and faster than me, well, how am I going to get an advantage?

I'm going to use my strength, which is my shot, and using fakes and angles to try to, again, leverage what I'm good at. And that was always, hey, if I'm open, I'm going to make the shot. So, you know, quickness, lateral stuff, you know, those are the type of things that, especially at that point in my career, it was being able to use my strengths to help out my opportunity areas, put it away. You get done playing at Penn State. What, what then? What, what, how did you, like, because you became an absolutely legendary player overseas, but when you got done playing, what were your thoughts of playing? Stateside, what was it like when you were finished? So finishing up, my senior year, we made it to the NIT Final Four, we lost in the championship game,

and throughout those weeks, I started to kind of reach out to people to say, okay, you know, Glenn Secunda played a couple years ahead of me and had been in Italy doing well for himself. And so again, I was reaching out to coaches and just saying, okay, what should I look at when I'm thinking about the next steps? And so I started to get materials even before that through the mail from a bunch of agents. And so the idea was, okay, I think I'm a pretty good player, but who the heck knows, right? You've got to figure out where people think you stand. And so I also was receiving letters from NBA teams. So just questionnaires to say, okay, fill this out.

We're interested in you potentially to come in whether I would be drafted or not. That wasn't necessarily a question, but definitely for free agent. If you recall, that was 1998. And there was an NBA after the draft occurred. There was a lockout. And after my final game and the draft, I had signed with an agent, Herbudoy, based out of Chicago, who was partnered with Luciano Capicione, and Lucky, and was the largest agent in Europe.

And he's the guy that brought over Ardita Sabonis, Tony Kooch, all of this. I had same guy. I had same guy. So it was Herber Doe and Lucky, is it Luciano? Is that the guy's name? Like, it was, it was. His first name's Luciano, but he goes by Lucky, yes. Okay, Luciano.

Luciano, that's a great, what a great name. Yeah, he was great. What a good. Can I give you, let me give you my, so I was, what year was that? Is that 99?

I, I graduated 98. Okay, so 98. So 2000, I finish up, right? Okay. And I'm kind of same thing. And so I decided pretty early on

to go with Radoi. And it was a guy named Bill McCanness, who was like an old school basketball. I know, yeah. So Bill recruited me really, really hard. And,

and, and, plan for me frankly was like hey look you'll get an Israeli passport you'll be good you can do this thing 15 20 years and when you get to a place to where you feel like you can you're confident you can make shots like we'll give you shot stateside like you know we'll see so I but in the meantime let's have you play I played in the USBL for you know for a season which is great because you played like 40 NBA games and like 40 NBA style games in like 50 days uh so you you know it's like a different against a high level of competition,

but a totally different brand of basketball in terms of what you learn. Right. The downside to that was, I didn't have any workouts because that was during the time of workouts, right? So the good thing is I'm playing against, I'm playing against like grown-ass men, league dudes, you know, and with league dudes.

Sean Colson in those types. And the downside is that I'm not doing the private workout, so I got no shot really being drafted. Anyway, this is my Radoi story. So that year was the year, and I want to get back to yours, so I apologize. All good.

They changed to a Bozeman A and Bozeman B, based upon your passport. I'm very familiar with the Bosman A, Bosman B. Right. So I was a Bosman B with an Israeli passport. The problem was that to play in Israel, I would have had to, I would have gone as a, I would have been a Bosman B not been in Israeli

for that year. Yeah. So it was because of, the rule, like that's how Israel interpreted it that year. And so that means I, instead of competing against other Israelis where I would have been more valuable, uh, or able to, so anyway, um, so their plan was we're going to form a team and play in this new Euro league. And the team is going to play home games in St. Petersburg, Russia. And we're going to train in Verraz, we're going to train in Verraz, Italy. You probably should have been on that team, right? And so, I'm

familiar with this team you're talking about. Okay. So, um, so they're like, all right, uh, August 14th camp starts. And I'm like, cool. I'm getting married in August. He's like, all right. Honeymoon in, in Italy, right? That was what Bill McCannelist said.

So, or maybe it was like August 16th. So we get married. We fly to Chicago because that's where Herberdoy is located. And my wife always wanted to go to a Cubs game. And so, and this is when Sammy was big. We, we land, we take a nap, we go to a Cubs game, Sunday night baseball against the Reds, Ken Griffey Jr.

Sammy actually tosses a ball to me. And, you know, he toss a ball before every inning. But there's a little six-year-old girl, something that had to sign up that said, Sammy, all I want for my sixth birthday is a baseball. So I had to give it to her. Like, right, you can't. Yeah. So anyway, so the next day, like, Herbert Doy is like, hey, come and have lunch with

me, you know, some spectacular restaurant in Chicago. So we go, we sit down, wine is poured, amazing, and, ah, this is going to be great. Hey, I got good news and I got bad news. The good news is camp's not for two weeks, so you guys can go on a honeymoon, do whatever you want. The bad news is

that you can't take your wife with you when you go to training camp because you're going to room with another guy. And I was like, with all due respect, like, I just got married. I don't have any money. And I don't have a fucking honeymoon plan. Like, are you kidding me? And then, hey, I'm going to Italy and you can't come? Like, yeah, that landed well.

So that was my first couple days of marriage. I'll tell you more about that team in a moment. Okay, so Radoi and Lucky decide, all right, you're going to play overseas. Where was your first job? My first job was in Treviso, Italy, which happens to be the hometown of my grandmother, my Italian grandmother's family. So, and at that time, still Benetan Treviso was one of the top five organizations in all of Europe.

So I looked at it as a great opportunity to play, you know, especially with the lockout, you know, to go to free agent camps or playing the NBA Summer League was on my radar. But if they weren't happening, the number one pick of that draft, Michael Olivacandi, was also playing in Italy that season to start out anyway. So again, I looked at it as, hey, I'm going to do this. But the great thing about it was that, yes, I was in a great place, a great organization, and my first two years of that contract were guaranteed.

And maybe not millions of dollars for your typical NBA contract or the NBA minimum, but not too far off. So, you know, I started off in Treviso. I, again, played for a great organization. Their GM, Mauricio Garadini, still is one of the top GM. in Europe has taken the league championship. He was with the Toronto Raptors for a number of years, but then came back to Europe.

And my head coach that year was Zetako Obradovich, who is the most successful FIvo coach, probably in all of history, if you look them up. So again, I got there, didn't know what to expect. Like you said, there's a lot of things that you just don't know until you go through it, and a lot of things in Europe, you'd say it's not professional, right?

There's things that are just not reasonable where, you know, if we did it in the States, people would really complain there. You just have to say, well, I'm across the pond. What am I going to do about this? And that really comes into play with, again, a lot of... And there's just some dudes that can't hang, right? Like, that's one of the things about...

Oh, big time. Yeah, my first month, first of all, it was one of the hottest August in Italian history. They don't have air conditioning there. So just sleeping at night and I'm sticking to my sheets. I have my front door and my bedroom, window wide open just to create a draft. And also the entire country of Italy takes the month off in August for San Agostino,

which is a holiday where most restaurants closed down. So through that, it took a lot of, I'd say, mental fortitude that for a lot of Americans, I'd say, the heck with this, what am I doing here? But I just said, hey, they just gave me a few million Italian lira in an envelope for being here to play basketball. So it was, I'll never forget. So my team was the St. Petersburg Lions. I am familiar with this team. I think you play with some of my ex-teammates like Marco Virginella, if you did go.

So I went to, yeah, so Keith Jennings was on the team, Derek Hamilton. So those are the two Americans. Keith Hamilton and Keith Hamilton and, excuse me, Derek Hamilton and Keith Hamilton and Mr. Jennings, the people remember from East Tennessee. Mr. Jennings. East Tennessee. Like my brother. So I never forget, though.

I get there. this cool kind of hotel overlooking Lake Cuomo in Italy. And like, wow, this is pretty amazing, right? And like these two dudes are old pros, old vets. So they have DVDs. Like we watch Belly. Like every, like, cool black movie, I watch five times over on their, on like a DVD player that I borrowed from them. And then, yeah, there was, uh, who else was there that you would know?

I think Stazich played, step, step on Stazich. Stefan Stasas played. Yeah, he was young, I think, at the time. He's young and he's an idiot, but yeah. Yes. That's another story. That's right. That's a good, that's a good member.

We were two of the young guys. But he had played a little bit in Italy and Treviso before that, right? So do you play with you? No, that was before you. Yes, my first year, Stazzi, as I called him, and I were both, you know, rookies along with Billy DeSoulter who played at Vanderbilt. That's crazy. How did you?

So here's my kind of nightmare scenario, right? And I don't know if I've told this story in a podcast. So Lucky's running the team. I'm talking with Bill McAnlis, obviously, and Herbert Doye. And the idea of the team was, we're going to have you play in this Euro league, in this Supro League, right, for maybe half the season. And when you guys don't make it to advance, everybody's going to get picked up and play elsewhere. In the meantime, like, in the meantime, like, we're paying.

paying you, but we're actually paying you out of the money you're paying us. So it kind of like works. That was kind of a wink, wink, nah, not deal. And so it wasn't very much money. Like, it was like 50 grand for half the year or something. So I had to go get my Israeli passport. So I train. And the coach was some Yugoslavian dude, the Kosovic, the Kosovovich, or whatever. And I thought he was pretty cool. I don't think he liked me because I was a little guard and he liked big guards except for Mr. Jennings because he played in the NBA. And, but like we practiced behind the back passes. There was like all kinds of shit that I was like, damn, like this is kind of cool.

They have some great drills. Yes. So I fly to Israel to get my Israeli passport. I land. I'm exhausted. I've been doing two days and scrimmages with this team, you know. I mean, you know, hardcore you can slaving dudes are work now. So I land in Israel and this, I meet with this older and younger Israeli agent.

And they're like, okay, now we're going to take you to. basically like immigration and you're going to get your Israeli passport. So I wait in this long line. I got all my paperwork and they didn't really tell me anything. And I get to the front of the line and they're like,

okay, you have to go in this room and you're meeting with the director. So I meet with the director of like, Aliya, which making Aliya means you're like becoming an Israeli citizen, dual citizenship. And I sit down and the woman says, Mr. Goodlib, where do you live? And I was like, well, currently I was,

I reside in Verreze, Italy. She's like, currently, it was like, well, I moved there from Stillwater, Oklahoma, and now I'm playing professional. Like, I was just being honest, right? Like, I didn't know I was supposed to fucking lie or anything. Yeah, the data. Right. So, and she's like, when do you plan to live in Israel? I was like, oh, and now the wheels start spinning. And I was like, well, it's the day the season is over. Then I'm going to come and live in Israel. And I like to play in Israel. But, you know, I need to start the process of Alia and get my passport. And she was like, this is not that you must live in Israel for one year while obtaining Aliyah.

I was like, what? And so like I get basically right there like all of some, my life passed before my eyes. I can't be playing Israeli anywhere. And they had been telling me I could play everywhere as an Israeli. So then they take me from that very moment, they're like, I tell them what happened and like, oh shit, maybe you got to play in Israel. they take me to a practice for a pro A team in Israel. And like, again, remember, I've had like a cup of coffee.

I mean, I maybe had some Danish or something like that when I landed. You're right. And now they're like, hey, you must go play and show yourself. And I, my head spinning. I don't, you know, I hadn't called my wife and told her what was happening. And, you know, she's thinking we're moving to maybe Russia, maybe Italy. I don't know what she's, you know, what's even going on. And so I wasn't very good.

So like, and like, that was like a 30 grand, 40 grand a year job, some shitty job in Israel. And then I had to fly back to Verraise, Italy. And when I landed, like, nobody picked me up. I took a cab to Verraise and then I walked to the hotel. Like, I feel like just the most beaten, then it starts raining. Like, it literally starts raining. And then what had been entertaining was the bus driver that would drive us from practice. to the hotel and back, you know?

Like, it was entertaining for a long time that, like, he would, at the, at Verraise's practice site, they had a bar, and he would have a couple of drinks, and he would be swerving, like, on, like, and you were just like, ah, you know, like, we're not on the, it's not on a, it'll be fine. But now all of a sudden, like, now I got a, so now I, like, I go to my room, I put my stuff back down, I take a shower, and now I got practice, and I get in the bus with some fucking drunk bus driver, knowing that I'm going to get cut because they can't keep three Americans.

And they're not going to keep me and get rid of Mr. Jennings, you know, who's like a million-dollar dude. Like, that's not going to happen. I was just in a bad place. And then I flew home. And I actually, during my time in Italy, I had left and gone to Lakers vet minicamp and flown back. And I thought the coach kind of thought it was a dushy move, even though it was set up by my agent and everything. Anyway, I flew home from Milan to Los Angeles. And I was literally in, or maybe to New York.

And I was literally in like the very, very back all the way to the right seat. Like, and there was no armrest on the window side. And I'm like, if this isn't the, if this isn't the end, like, this isn't bottom of the barrel, I don't know what it's like. Oh, I got worse for that for you. You do, go. Give me your, give me a worst story. Oh, gosh. No, it's, well, I played 11 years, Doug.

So that first year was one of the most professional years. And we got picked up. We had a deal with Nike, Benetton Treviso. The Benetan is a worldwide fashion brand. Again, we had beautiful suitcases they gave us and suits. So wonderful experience. My next team that I played for was in Switzerland. Beautiful country, wonderful place.

But the basketball was absolutely horrendous. We took bus rides everywhere on the day of the game. So, you know, my first game ever was on Lake Geneva in a town called Blonae. And it's near Geneva, six in the morning. People, you know, looking at my teammates, again, coming from Treviso, where we flew most places. And if we did take a bus ride, we went there the day before the game got adjusted to the city and the hotel, and then, you know, had shoot around the morning of the game. But again, Switzerland, first game in Switzerland, I'm playing in front of 27 fans.

in this rinky-ding gym. I won teammate from Russia, 6-10, Igor Khorchoff. He forgot his shoes. There's no manager with some extra shoes like we had at Penn State. So he had to borrow some shoes from one of our teammates who also happened to wear size 16s. So, you know, things like that, just starting from one of the first crazy stories of

where it starts to lose some of that, quote-unquote, professional medal. But, man, I got so many from over the years is that from especially not being paid on time. I mean, that happened all the time. We just don't have liquidity now. Or, you know, we need you to go sign something at the bank and then we'll pay you later.

But it was nothing to regret. Here's one. Here's one. So I was playing in Israel, and I was playing from Akabiranah, and Sharon Drewker, who I actually thought was a good coach, but he had coached my buddy Miles. So what's also interesting is that same trip where I went and I worked out for one team,

then, like, I was kind of stuck in Israel for a couple days. and my best friend in basketball is Miles Simon, who's now in assistant with the Lakers. And Miles was playing in Maccabi Ranana. And so I went and stayed with him and I was going to maybe practice with them or whatever. And because I had played the Maccabi games. Or not I was going to play in the Maccabee games,

I think that next summer or whatever. Yeah, I can't remember. Anyway, so I remember. So when I played for Maccabi, I'd look at my check and I think, I don't know what I was making, like seven or eight a month or something like that. And it wouldn't be the exact number. And the number would have this great variance. And it would be, say you're making $8,000 a month, right?

And it's supposed to be just $8,000 cash into your account, wired into your account on the first of every month. And then all of a sudden, like, okay, it wouldn't come in until it was the fourth or the fifth. And instead of being $8,000, it would be $7,512, you know. And then one month it would be $7,613. And then one month it would be $7,613. Yes. Yes. And they were like.

Yeah. And they were. I learned those games. I learned those games. And I was unbilled. I was like, are you? So this. Right.

So this is why this is what this. So I left that team in March and here's why. So what happened was the year before, like, I said, Miles is on the team. They actually played in Euro League, and they overspent. And, you know, so the budget was tight, whatever. The budgets are very tight. Mr. Goodleep. Anyway, so, you know, I'm playing and I was, the way in Israel, so then I'm playing as in Israeli. And we had two Americans, Corey Carr, Jesse Salters, Corey Carr got hurt. We brought over Adrian Peterson, my teammate from college. So that was great. But he was.

supposed to get his own apartment. He'd live with us. He was supposed to get in his own car. He shared my car until I left, but it was like, so shady. Can I use a quick car story? Yeah, go. Jason Cable. So Jeff Cable's brother, who played at North Carolina,

Jeff played at Duke. Jason Cable, 6'8. My third last season overseas, we were teammates in Avellino, Italy, and I was living in a hotel for a few months, but that's besides this car story. But it is tied because Jason lived down the street from the hotel.

He drove a smart car. And he had to pick me up every day for the five weeks that we were teammates. He got hurt and ended up leaving Avalino. I inherited his smart car. But every day, six years. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger, than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve

to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

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and try to make sense of how we survived it, including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. So, Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversational. with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

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Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Today, Jason Cable would pick me up six three and a half. And then we also had to put our gym bags in there somehow. And we did it with flying colors for, for about five weeks. That's amazing. So I got my car.

There was a guy named Gidon Bailey. Gidon was our equipment manager. And he brings me these keys to this car. And I still can't. I got to remember what the kind of car it was. It's like, I mean, it's basically a piece of shit. I can't. So he brings me the keys.

He goes, Gordlib. No quick. I was like, what? Gordlebe. No, he's like doing the driving thing. No quick. It's like, oh, don't drive fast. No quick.

It's like, okay, no problem. you don't like the car was there's a mouse inside peddling that that's how that thing went um so yeah so i i i go to them i was like what is the deal they're like good lib good lib you are israeli now this is this is normal we do you have to live like the the currency adjustment i was like what they would wait until the currency was in their favor and then that's when they would wire the money just to save you know a couple hundred bucks i mean sometimes it was like honestly like 100 bucks. And I was like, are you fucking, so my last conversation with the president of the club, you know, I had a team in the ABA that wanted me to come back and play. And, you know,

I was getting ready to go play back in the USBL in Oklahoma and make a, I get overpaid to play on that thing because I was a little bit of a draw. And this, and I go to the president to the club and I was like, listen. So I had, because I was in Israeli, I had a 10-month contract as opposed to everybody else had an eighth-month contract. Like everybody else would be tightened up the last day of the regular season. You'd have to be paid everything. And then if you go to the playoffs, you got stretched out. Yeah.

Yeah, mine would have been May and June. And, like, we were, like, in fourth and fifth place. And only the top four teams went to the playoff. And we could have been done in April. And I would have had to stay in May and June. And then if I would have had to stay, I would have to go to, like, basic training. And I was like, fuck that. I'm out of here.

So, so I go to the president of the club. And I was like, listen, if you, this is where you're talking about being professional. If you will give me your word as a man that you will pay me every dollar that I'm owed on that contract, I will stay, I will work, I have, I will not say another word about money. And he's like, good leave, we will do the best that we can. I was like, no, no, no. That's not the answer you're looking for. That's not the answer. I said, just give me, just give me your word as man.

Look me in the eye and give me, you don't have to sign a piece of paper and say as a man, I'm going to get you. you every penny that you're owed. You say that. I'm here. He's like, we will do the best as we can. It is a very difficult time. And I was like, okay, March 1st is my last game. I will be flying out of Ben Gurian and I will arrange travel and you guys will pay for it. Right. So that's, I got paid on March. I made sure the money went through March 1st, you know, and then I got on a plane and I flew home. So that was, that, that's how my Israeli career ended. So if you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1800 Flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination.

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Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and families and the ad council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles.

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Multiple fights. Multiple fights. And I am not a big fighter, but I will defend myself. And I can start to rattle off names. But the one that comes to mind is, and they were Americans involved. But I'm watching Byron Muton, who won a national championship of Maryland. So anyway, Byron's on the floor in Bamberg, Germany, getting pummel. then already we've been getting screwed by the rest the whole game.

And I come over and all I do is separate. I push away the guys from the other team. I get punched. I'm the one that got kicked out of the game. And I'm the one that has the entire arena throwing shit at me. So, you know, that one. And then I was up for suspension for a few games. And I said, just look at the video.

Look at the video. I didn't do anything. Eventually I was vindicated. But yeah, I definitely had a number of fights over there because especially from country to country, but the officiating can be completely drastically different. And in Poland, for example, you can get away with murder. They just, you can throw elbows, you can set completely illegal picks,

and it's just part of the game. And that does lead to some of that, yeah, multiple times over my career. I had some good fight. Do you get the sense? I don't know if you get the sense. I always felt like, and I still feel this way, I don't think they respect the way we play basketball. I think there's a bit of a,

and to a certain extent, they might actually be right. Like, you know, we make this big thing about the Redine team, and they were challenged by Spain. There's no way anybody who's picking teams would ever pick anybody on the Spanish team ahead of anybody in the American team, but they still made it very, very competitive. And look, there's some dirty shit. they do that dirty euro shit, you know, where they're sneaky physical and sneaky cheap or whatever.

But I always felt like there's, like they respect the talent and athleticism, but they don't actually respect the way in which we play basketball. And that's why when you come over, like they almost thumb their nose at you unless you want to do it their way. You're hitting on a big nail on the head that there are numbers. a number of rules that they interpret different. And then, too, they started to have American coaches coming over in the 70s and 80s that helped influence some of the culture of basketball in some of the countries. But then they started to get some money and sponsors behind the professional team. So then you started to get bigger and brighter minds coming up with ideas.

And especially in Lithuania, especially in Serbia and the Yugoslavian republics, they had coaches that they took this American game and definitely tweaked it. And I'd say like you alluded to, I think in some ways very positively. And that is spacing. And that is

the idea of the team is stronger than the individual. And that growing up, you know, AAU was not like it is today, but still you had to make a name for yourself coming up. And the way you do that is when you actually have the ball and then try to do something, right? Right. You know, how much of the game

in basketball, do you actually not have the ball? It's a lot. What do you do without the ball is something they harp on? But again, back to the officials, walking, traveling. You may not make a pump fake, a shot fake, and put the ball on the floor

like we do on the same side. That is a travel. You cannot catch the ball on a fast break and then take a step and throw it in front of you. That's a travel. There's all these little nuanced calls that I learned, and the travel.

No, no, that's the travel here. Three second call. They really enforce it over there. Like, they call it at 2.99 or less. And, you know, again, it's like they have their drills. They have their style, practicing twice a day, every day in the preseason. And then even during the season, you may have a day off, but we would still have to come into the gym to do rehab or do some type of,

there were some teams I just, I didn't have days off. And that would be for, you know, nine months straight, 10 months. So it's a different experience there. They do structure the whole season and a lot of the physical stuff on soccer. So there's not as much power lifting in the weight room. There's a lot more flexibility. And some of that, again, I think there was positive ideas that they had.

And then back to the strategy on the, you know, there's stock, and then there's only one or two guys that are allowed to shoot. And they move the ball left and right, in and out. And, you know, that is fundamental basketball. If you talk about Lithuanian coaches, like Mike De Antone and the Italian coach, coaches. They play fast, and we're just going to outscore you. Open shot, and everybody's expected to be a decent shooter.

We want you to put it up, and then we're going after the rebound. So there definitely were different styles from place to place, and they wanted you to adjust to them. Favorite coach you ever played for? My second coach, Franco Casolini, so I mentioned Mike the Antony. Franco coached Mike the Antony in Milan, when Milan won the early championship. back in the 70s, I believe it was. Guy from Milan, I can't imagine

if he played basketball at a high level because he's only about 5'4, but the guy was a genius and was such a player's coach. I played for him, I just had a blast, and he gave me the ball. He said, look, you maybe didn't play much point guard in your life,

but you can be a point guard. And when I tell my Penn State teammates or some others, who knew my handle wasn't that tight growing up, they said, get out of here, but Franco said, look, you can do it. Like you said, the European guards, different than Mr. Jennings, are typically bigger and just use

their bodies. You know, if there is a shorter guy, it's a guy in to get in the half court, yeah. Yeah, so just get it up the court and then run the offense. And again, that's the typical Euro point guard. He said, I think you can do it. And it really expanded my game. I really wish, you know, in some ways

from the basketball experience, I had more of a chance to do that at a younger age. But again, we won a couple with championships together. And you could tell, like, he was at the end of his coaching career. He never coached after that final season with me in 2000. But I looked him up. I didn't even know this when I was playing for him,

but maybe it's because the Internet was such a novel thing at that time. He had such success in Milan, and he also coached in Rome. So those are two of the biggest teams in Italy. He coached Dino Raja. He coached Bob McAoo in Milan. So, you know, Franco was an amazingly accomplished coach, and I was lucky enough to have him for two years. seasons and just had a lot of fun with them.

How did you keep up with everything in the States? I feel like now it's a lot easier with guys. In Israel, you had ESPN. In Russia, we didn't have anything. In France, you know, I was only in France for a month and a half. I had my first year broadcasting that I went and played in France to try and get a team from Pro B to Pro A, and that was a great experience playing for a young coach. Yeah.

But I really struggled to know anything. And I think that's one of the things, not just absorbing the culture and the language differences, whatever, because a lot of guys are like, fuck it, I'm just playing ball, and then you go out at night. And the cultural stuff does bother them, though, is they have no, they come back and they have no idea about anything that's taken place. I know that's changed. How did you keep up with it? I have a couple. I remember, and when I come home, I usually was on a different time frame. You know, the jet lag, I'm waking up at 4 in the morning, and I'm wide awake, Will Farrell.

I had not heard anything about this movie. I went in with completely open. I rented it the night before at Blockbuster, hoping to watch it that night, but I fell asleep at like 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock even. The next morning I'm at my parents' house downstairs. Everybody is upstairs to sleep. And I'm watching old school not knowing how great of a movie it was.

And I was laughing at belly laughs out loud and woke up everybody at 5 in the morning. And I was like, look, I didn't know it was going to be this funny of a movie. I hadn't heard of it, you know, on a VHS tape back in whatever year that was. And like you said, when I was over there, the Internet had just really started getting going. I really tried to read as much as I could of the news, ultra stuff, like that movie. I remember Britney Spears, too, like, I had no idea of the heck this wasn't. There was a lot of examples of that over the 11 years where I'd come home and people were talking about a certain celebrity or an event, and I'd say, I have no idea what you're talking about.

So in a lot of ways, it was fine. Like, I'm okay. I'll be all right, not knowing about all these things that are... Yeah, the Internet helped. I can't imagine doing what I did for 11 years if it happened without email. And that I did over the years, especially with Skype. Yahoo Messenger was ahead of Skype, and then it kind of fell off. But I remember using Yahoo Messenger.

It was super clunky in 2000, 2001. So, yeah, I definitely kept up with the technology. I was trying to keep in touch with my family, trying to keep in touch with my friends, and just knowing what was going on in the world. world, but definitely things slipped through the cracks like Britney Spears in old school. Yeah, I remember, I was into, I didn't know the Britney thing, whatever, I was kind of into it when it came out. I remember getting Russian bootlegs of everything. Oh, yeah, sure.

You know, like they would have the, I also would, they have, I can't tell you how many movies I watched on buses in Russia where they would have the Russian dubbed over, but you could still hear the English kind of, it was so cheap. And it was. All I hated that. That's the worst. And I had teams with players most of the time that spoke English. And so if you were in a place, Italy is very adamant about protecting their language.

So on the Italian bus, we knew it had to be an Italian language. But if at all possible, especially when DVDs came out. So that was always a fight. But once DVD started to become more popular, I remember in 19-no, what was it, 2001, 2002 season, I had a VCR in my TV that I rented from the Blonde. rockbuster in Como, Italy. I would go across the border and come back to Switzerland, Lugano, and I would play the DVD, and then I would tape it with the English subtitles, but with Italian language. And I did that for the team when we took those bus rides,

which part of Switzerland, which was a four to five hour bus ride at the minimum. It's interesting, though, how we could get through that stuff now because we don't have a, because now you have cell phones, right? Or at, Well, everybody can do it on their own. Yeah, we couldn't do it on our own back then. If you had a computer with a DVD player, which came about later in the 2000s, yeah, you could sit there and watch your movies. So my last few years of my career, I could just watch whatever I wanted on my computer.

But that wasn't the case. What do you think of the NBA now? Oh, gosh, I talk about the NBA all the time, especially these last couple of weeks with, right? I mean, I grew up a Sixers fan. I loved Dr. Jay. Andrew Tony. And then I kind of morphed into a Knicks fan, so, you know, always getting crushed by the Bulls,

but Ewing and Oakley, as a player, you always want to shoot to possibly get to. And so over the years, I've played with and against a ton of guys that got the chance that played in the NBA. But the game has changed, and that's not just at the NBA level, but especially at the NBA level, it has changed. And I give

the example that I was talking to a buddy of mine that played college basketball last night. We were talking about that Blazers game last night, which was incredible. You watch these guys, and the shooting was incredible. I've not seen shooting like that at all. That was one of the most amazing shooting displays I've seen in a long time, if ever. But when you watch guys, and I'm not going to criticize because they're just going by what's allowed, but they carry the ball.

So I wasn't allowed to do that. If I could have, I would have been able to get by guys because if you pause your dribble and act like you're going to shoot. I remember Stefan Marbury doing that with his left hand. He'd pull it up. He'd bring his right hand over as if he was going to go into a shot, and then he'd cross over. But he did it so smoothly and quickly and low to the ground.

He got away with it back in the 90s. Again, nowadays, guys are constantly pausing, and then they continue their dribble, and then they continue the dribble. And if you're something like LeBron, or you're somebody as quick as Damian Millard, like that's a tremendous advantage. And then on top of that, yes, they can sort of play zone now.

I would have loved to have seen the two, three zone that I saw the Lakers playing briefly, allowed back when we were coming up. And again, how is it different now? And what a while? I love watching, but it is a different game. When you got somebody like James Hardin that can you just spread it out, you know, four guys around the three-point line and then one roaming, one roaming athletic inside guy, it don't mind it because it's so missed the old days of, you know, the 80s and 90s of the Pistons,

to mix the bulls or the teams I grew up on and that style of play. Yeah. No, I mean, Hardens, most people I know who played say, well, I think Hardin's awesome. I hate watching and play basketball just because, you know, it's just too many, and like, it's just too much dribbling. Just, just too much. Like, there's a, there's a happy medium there,

and he crosses over the happy medium. Sure. From a spectator's perspective, yeah. Like, it's not enjoyable to watch. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not, not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

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Search learn the hard way and listen now. But his coach, DeAntoony, I think with Nash, you know, he said, look, I got this guy that can get an advantage off a pick and roll, and he's going to find the best option. And so he implemented that. He kept the floor spread, and they just did it every time with the Maristotomayor over and over and over again, right? So here he has James Hardin. He says, all right, who else do we got? We got some shooters. James, every time, getting an advantage with the ball.

and find us our best option. So he normally doesn't get a pick on the ball. He just, you know, for me, Dantonie, again, knowing that Franco was my favorite coach, I watched D'Antony, and he's just saying, all right, what's our most efficient way of trying to get a bucket here? But for me, as a spectator, yeah, it's not the traditional way. It's not the traditional game,

but it is a way that you can be successful. I just don't think you can win a championship that way. Because eventually, you know, you're going to get to the end of the game and defense. Well, I think it's team defense. I also think that it exhausts your, but like, one of the reasons James Hard and doesn't play defense is because he's exhausted. Like there's just, no, you can't, right?

And it gets harder and harder and the defense gets better and better. And you can be in awesome shape. And he is in incredible shape now, as opposed to there have been times early in the season a couple years ago when he was messing with one of the Kardashians. He wasn't in great shape. But I just, it's an exhausting to, when you're trying to beat your guy, that higher percentage of time with that volume, not just a possessions,

but percentage of time in a possession when you have the basketball, like, I just, it's an exhausting thing, and so he's too tired to play defense. Absolutely. Look, my high school team, I can say, you could have given me the ball in every possession, and I, at that point, you know,

in terms of the competition level in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania, you could give me the ball, and physically I could get an advantage because I was a little taller than the average high school player in that area. I was a little more athletic. On the national scale, no.

Like, you know, I got into a role and a style of play where run me off a bunch of picks, get me open, or I dish it into the post. There's some type of head turn. I relocate. I'm going to make the open shot. But to take what you just said about the style of play, that, to me, started with AI. That started with, just give the ball to AI, maybe sometimes Aaron McKee, and just let them do something.

And then we'll put somebody like Theo Ratliff in the back on defense and get a bunch of other guys that are, you know, relatively good shooters, but good defenders. And so that formula worked for them one year, right? They worked one year. That team was built. The Celtics a couple years ago were kind of built the same way with Isaiah Thomas, where you have one guy and you give them the ball and you're like, hey, just go get as many buckets as you can. Meanwhile, you have four other dudes that are just junkyard dogs on defense. and that's how we'll make up for it. And it did, you know, it has occasionally worked

in the east, obviously, in the West. It'll win you some games. But to win a championship, I think, you know, going back to, it was on TV, so everybody saw it. But I always thought this, Jordan was so unstoppable. But even when he could score, whatever he scored against the Celtics, like that may not win the game or the series for you when you play that style. And so when they did put in the triangle offense, which,

with Franco, we also did that under him a little bit. And I saw how, yeah, like, if you got guys that can shoot that move without the ball, you don't know on the defensive end, you know, our opponents, they don't know where we're going to hit them. We don't know what we're going to hit you. We're going to see what you give us. And eventually, that will win just an amount of games and give you a chance at championships. Because, again, the other team, when you're playing in those seven-game series,

they're going to adjust. They're going to say, all right, we're going to take this away this. game and make these other guys beat us. And I can say back to when I was trying to, in certain levels of competition in high school, you eventually run out of gas and you just can't do it. And it's better to have other options where the defense doesn't know that's the guy that's going to get the back door. And that's what the Serbians and all those European coaches, they do harp on that,

to surround and not be as predictable as the American game. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you.

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Learn how at belonging begins with us.org Brought to you by the ad council It's absolutely fascinating Okay, last thing. Give me a guy who, whether he's Lehigh Valley guy or Pennsylvania guy, who doesn't get as much respect. Like, look, you're a guy who had a great career. If I was to bring up to average basketball fan, like, hey, man, that dude reminds me of Pete Lassiki.

They're like, who's Pete Lysicki? Like, really? He was like three-time all Big Ten? Like, he was a baller. He played forever overseas. Like, Pete Lid. So ball guys, no. Okay, give me one other guy like that.

that whether I should have on or should be brought up in conversation, that man, this guy was a tremendous player. Tough one. I mean, so if you ask that question, the guys that I immediately think of are the ones in Europe, that you're not going to bring them on the show because they maybe don't speak English that well. But there were so many guys in Europe that were just,

they were NBA starters, but because they made their $2 million a year and they were comfortable in the city that they were living in their role, you never heard of them. if I go back to your question and to think of somebody, you know, growing up or tough one, you should have given that one to me earlier. Look, you know, thinking of teammates, right? So maybe I can go with somebody like Marcus Green.

So Marcus Green played at St. Bonaventure. He's from Norristown, Pennsylvania. He's 5'7, okay? a lot of guys that I played with their against, it didn't matter what their size was. So John Linnehan, another guy from PA, what's his name? Chante Rogers, I mean, these guys were all under 5-8, okay?

And all of them, especially overseas, they made names for themselves because, like I said, most of those European teams could get the guy that could get into the lane, the guy that could just put full-cour pressure on the entire game, And so back to maybe Marcus. You know, he's a good buddy of mine. We were teammates for one year in Italy.

That season we were together. We won the Italian Cup. Totally outperformed what expectations were for that small town team in Avalino. Marcus went on to play in Fennerbache in Istanbul, play for some big teams all across Europe. But people, they wouldn't know his name. But if you look up some highlight reels of Marcus, we take over games for many, many years over the course of his, gosh,

I think he played 12 or 13 years, maybe more. So again, I could certainly get back to you on that one. There's guys like Kenny Mitchell. I was teammates with Kenny. He played at Dartmouth. If you look him up, he's now this chief marketing officer for Snapchat. So to think, like, he and I were teammates in a couple of seasons in summertime AAU could shoot it pretty well, but just great to play with because he always found me, right?

I'll always be fond memories of somebody that will pass me the ball. But to think that, you know, he's a Dartmouth all-time assistant. leader and I love playing with him, but he stopped his career, he got his NBA at Dartmouth, and now, and got his master's, there's a lot of guys out there that go into college to play basketball, and they're not thinking like that. They're all thinking what I tried to do, what you tried to do, and that is, hey, see if I can make some money with this game. But again, I think of somebody like Kenny, he'd be awesome to talk to, along with Marcus, because, you know, they're different trajectories. You may be never heard of them, but man,

like they... Okay, so that actually lends to my last question, which, is this. There's this belief from people, some in the media, some athletes, many, you know, some politicians have gotten on this thing. And I think it's, it's going to happen when there's like this name, image, and likeness

deal. And, like, I don't know, to me, the truth of it is nobody's name image and likeness has any sort of value, right? Guys, people buy tickets. They support their team, and then they learn about the athletes. And if they like the athletes, then they try and hire them when they get done playing sports,

right? Would they give them some extra money? Like, Yeah, but that's not ever what it's really been about. I just, I, you know, like, I'm not sucking up to anybody or anybody's system. I just, I don't really understand this, how some money in a guy's pocket makes everything better when we're giving them more and more support. It's about, to me, it's about playing, getting a chance to show yourself to be a professional basketball player, improving great facilities and coaches. And then, oh, yeah, by the way, like, when I get done, because I have a, a, a, quality reputation, now I can go into business, and I connect with people at the university. Where are you on what seems to be a movement to pay kids more than a scholarship, more than the cost of attendance while they're still in college?

Yeah, I think it's a great topic. I will say, too, you know, I've followed your career a bit, Doug. I am impressed that you put yourself out there all the time on these topics, because especially now with the trolls that are, out there. Gosh, like, you can't have, you know, a sound, reasonable discussion anymore, you know, especially even at the highest levels of political arena. But on this topic, let me take you back to when I was probably a sophomore junior at Penn State. And again, this is before their internet trolls or people that are going to start posting things about what you said. I was interviewed by the, the, they're at Penn State. And somehow the question

came up like, so what is your opinion on players, you know, be getting paid. And I said, you know what? It's not fair that some of my teammates don't have a little cash on the weekend for them. And in that regard, I think that paying players make sense. But in no way did I offer up a, what's the actual structure of this or how is it going to look. And I got so much shit for that for that statement back then. And again, I would stand by the idea that I, I never needed or wanted. I was fine. Like, I could use my dad's ATM card any time, but $20 would last me a month. If my parents came up to watch a game, they maybe gave me, you know, $20, $40 to put in my wallet,

that would last me weeks because everything was paid for. I had all my meals paid for. I had all the clothing from Nike with the contract we had. And then to advance this idea that you've asked about, they, all these teams, they have everything. When I visited Penn State over the years, especially in these last 10 years now that I'm done playing, they have a complete setup in the locker room

for whatever meal of the day it might be that they can go in there and get food. So we never had that. I mean, we had all our meals paid for, but the problem was if we got hungry after the meal hall closed, 9.30 at night, and I'm trying to keep my weight on during the season, I don't have any cash to go buy a pizza or buffalo wings from Pennsylvania. state sub shops. So for me, that was the scenario that, yeah, we shouldn't have to need that.

And maybe that came out in the Yukon champion press conference or somebody from their team mentioned something like that. I go to bed hungry some nights. That's what I would not. There's a hungry huskies. Yeah. Hungry huskies. There you go. But, you know, for advancing the conversation to today with the likenesses, I agree with you because let's go back to when my number 32 Penn State jersey was being sold. It was a Nike jersey. It was super nice. Once in a while on eBay, it'll pop up. It'll sell for five cents. But again, while I was in college, I used to see people wear in my jersey, and it would be like, wow, that's super awesome. I remember being in Ocean City, Maryland, though. That would be where I'd go with friends in the summertime if I had a weekend or a week to just

kind of lay back and some kid walking down the street. And we were in the car, and I told my buddy to stop the car. I said, stop. That guy has my jersey on it. And I yelled to him. I was like, hey, do you know who that is? And the guy turned around and looked at me and said, yeah, could John a Carter? So, you know, for me, again, that little story, or I remember being in Italy and some little kid before our game was wearing a Penn State 32 jersey,

and I said, do you know who that is? Well, he didn't speak English. And I guarantee he didn't know that it was me. He was wearing a Penn State jersey, or even what Penn State was. He probably maybe got it at a good real store or something. So fast forward to today with the likenesses, yeah, go crazy. I just, I think that there's, it's just opening up a big door of what you kind of alluded to.

Like, there's going to be people out there. They're going to circumvent what it's meant to do. So, well, we're going to pay this guy because we want him to then be a Nike guy or an Adidas guy or, you know, whatever it might be once they do graduate from college. And that's only going to be a handful of guys. That's not going to be like your average, your average kid. But even those guys, you know, my thing is, okay, so I don't, and forgive me if you're listening to this podcast, you've heard this. This is not the tangential rant. It's the first part is I'm not sure that people have ever been honest with how much it helps you just get into school to be on scholarship, right?

Sure. I mean, Penn State's a real, and I'm sure you would have probably would have gotten to Penn State. I wouldn't have gotten into Notre Dame on my own. I just wouldn't have. I remember when I was being recruited, Mike Montgomery, recruited me to Stanford, and he was like, look, you just need a thousand on your SAT. I was like, that's it? Like, yeah, it's basketball.

It's different. And I was like, it was crazy. Couldn't nobody, no one in my school got into Stanford. Nobody in my school got into Cal or to UCLA or Notre Dame, like my high school. Nobody at all. And I could have, and I was a good student. And I had a good SAT, but nothing crazy. And I could get into anywhere.

So just getting into school for so many of us as student athletes is, and it's prohibitively more difficult now. Then you come down to a fording school. And I agree with you in terms of having a little money in your pocket. You know, they've done the cost of attendance thing. Guys do have Pell grants. You know, I think some of it comes down to manage it. You know, you've got to learn to manage it.

It's not a lot of money, but you've got to learn to manage it. There's a reasonable way, and it really has improved. I mean, it's just, it's so much better than it's ever been. And, you know, you'll get people like, well, it's not good enough. Like, look, if you're really going to track, if you're really going to track, the TV contracts. The TV contracts are based upon schools and their brands. And they're like the easy way to explain it is there's a reason the contracts are 20 years out or 10 years out.

It has nothing to do with the individual players. Now, look, has it been built up on those schools having success? Yes. But it's also based upon the alumni base. It's also based upon location. you know, all of these other things that kind of go into it. Sure. And so, but, but, but to me, you, if you start paying guys as professionals, you start taxing things that they have.

And the entire system becomes very, very different and much more complicated. And it would be the, it would be the first ever employee that the government, that the state government would not want their tax dollars from. That's never going to happen, right? the other part that I find interesting is there's now this new kind of new push for some sort of unionization and the flaw to that is well one what are they going to fight over that they don't already have right there's a limit to how much time you can play there's already set standards for for the workplace in terms of you know scholarship is four years or five years and they can't cut you anymore etc etc but there's this belief that if you unionize the top guys will get more well that would be the first time ever that a union would fight for, right?

Like, I'm in a union. The union doesn't fight for the top guys. The top guys are good. The union fights for the rank and file, right? And so, whereas the only inequity that you could possibly see are the guy, the Kajana Carter's, right, the Johnny Mansells. And my argument to those guys are, because they're so well promoted that, and they're, they have these Heisman campaigns.

Like Johnny Mansell, whatever he brought in to Texas A&M because of his one season of greatness when he won a Heisman trophy, he'll be able to collect on that for the next 50 years, even though he flamed out in the NFL, right? Because he's John Mansell from Curville, Texas, and he can walk around and do autographs signs or whatever. And oh, yeah, by the way, when he signs all those autographs, it's going to be on Texas A&M shit, right? And they don't charge him for that. They don't say, hey, we want our name, image, and likeness. We don't want you in our uniform. It actually doesn't work both ways.

When you get done, you benefit way more from your tie to the university, whereas they do benefit on some level from you, you're tied to their university when you're playing. Again, I think you and I, from what you just described, are in the same ballpark with our view on it. What I have witnessed is that, at least for Penn State, I haven't walked into a bunch of different locker rooms across the country, but I'm pretty sure they've been keeping up with the Joneses.

And that is that, especially across the top sports, they're taking care of. There is, now at Penn State, compared to when I was there, I don't know how many more positions of professionals who are paid money to help the team be successful, to help promote, like you said, there's not only, what we had was a, what did they call it, the sports information director, So we had a SIDI. Yes, ID. So he would help us, Pat Dongby.

He would help us with getting interviews set up or, you know, making sure that we had certain things taken care of. But then they would, you know, nowadays they're doing so much more on social media because I follow the Penn State online presence. And there's people that are paid to do that. So, you know, that's the visibility that the guys are getting nowadays compared to when you and I were in college is way, way. So again, I think we're on the same ballpark.

I think it's healthy to keep things in check. Where did it get out of check or out of balance is looking at some of these coaches and how much they're getting paid? Well, that's just natural market forces, and that's fine. I think from the standpoint of the education, I graduated, I got my association, I believe, is the large. That's different for my brother. who it's a smaller school and I can give you the details

Penn State has continued to pay benefits for me the fact that I graduated from there and I perfect perfect you and your brother are the perfect perfect example perfect example and then here can I give you one real quick? I do this with I do this radio guys all the time right you know like hey what was your first radio job

like man I made $10 an hour and I was doing this and that and putting things together and I was like well my first radio gig I made 60 plus I made you know 200 in appearance at like a local place

$100 every time like I ended making like 70 something you combine it with what I was making ESPN like my first year doing broadcasting I was making easy low six figures which is crazy in the radio business to make 60 grand without ever having turned on a radio and that was guaranteed

and then I had to make them like 75 after endorsements and all that stuff and so the door though right it was only because I played Oklahoma State right Like, there you go. I'm, I'm, I think I was great. Again, I go back, I go back to, you know, some of the guys I told you, mutual friends of ours.

Renzi Stone. Renzi was a decent player at University of Oklahoma, as I understand it. I never got to actually watch and play. Renzi has been one of the most successful marketing executives in the Oklahoma City area for 20 years now. And I got with a couple who were out here in Scottsdale, Arizona. They're wearing University of Oklahoma shirts. and I said, hey, my buddy's on the board of Regents for University of Oklahoma, Renzi Stone. They're like, oh, yeah, we know Renzi. His face is up on the billboard in Oklahoma City,

not because of basketball directly, but absolutely indirectly, and because he leveraged that visibility he got at school. And then, of course, he's worked his butt off. He has all the other intangibles that goes into making a great businessman. You know, again, I can go on and on about the guys that I played with, He said, you know what? Yeah, it's over. But now what am I going to do?

And I've had to do that, too, these last 10 years, something to fall back on like that diploma. And you have an alumni base that remembers you, that knows what kind of person you were. That goes forever. That goes for the rest of your life. And it doesn't last as long as your ACLs or your back or your anger. All right. Well, I know you do wealth management.

I hope you put all your guys into Tesla today because, holy shit. I've been put people into a number of things. that I can pat myself on the back for, but yeah, it should. Today, today is a good. I, I, my guy, I have a guy in New York who's very conservative, and I remember in 2013, I test drove a Tesla, and the guy who I test drove is Tesla, he's like, you know what you should do? You should buy the stock to 93 today, buy the stock,

and then in five years you'll be able pay off your car in the stock. And I call my guy, and he's like, you know, energy stocks is kind of a weird company. They haven't made any money yet or whatever. I just sent it, like, well, I'm talking. to you, I sent him an email. $1,500 a share, asshole. It was at 93. I'd say if I took away the name, Doug, and I'm looking, I have my computer up while we're

talking because I am keeping track of if my assistant Maggie meets something from me. But yeah, Tesla trading at 1545 right now, its PE, though, is 804. That, if I didn't know it was Tesla, I'd say, what the hell is wrong with this company? and why is it trading at a multiple that is just out of this world. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. And a lot of investing, like a lot of things in the human experience, it's based on emotion. But it is a great company.

They actually are making money finally, which, you know, you could say that about Facebook or some other companies that now appoint, yes, I'm in wealth management. It's something that I studied at Penn State Finance, 10 plus years now. But, yeah, it's, I can't say how much. with a degree in finance from Penn State University and the things that I learned from that experience, but also with my life experience. Did you guys know any of the other stuff that was going on? What's that?

The football stuff. Oh, absolutely not. That was one of my first years out, right? So I was working at Vanguard, which is a financial company here in Scottsdale, based in Pennsylvania, though. And people knew that I played basketball at Penn State after some time, right? And they knew that I was a big Penn State to speak. And oh, my gosh, the things that people would say to me at my desk were just out of, you know, just at Penn State.

One, if you look at the history of the NCAA in terms of infractions or this in that Penn State and Stanford and maybe Northwestern are the three that like never did anything, right? And I can tell you, John Bowled, our NCAA compliance guy, he was up our ass all the time about stupid stuff with that $10 that, you know, we get to give that back. We shouldn't have given you that. There were things all the time that we were constantly being, you know, and my experience, again, from my four years plus, I mean, I would always go back to Penn State. And I, you know, I worked on a film that was sponsored by Jerry Sandusky's organization. So you can look it up. It's called Flow, FLOWW. It's about for kids that had problems with self-confident.

Corey, who used to be the wrestling coach at Stanford, All-American and Olympian wrestler. And then they had Missy Leopoldos who was an whole big ten gym. talking to kids in this movie about, hey, you know, keep your head up and all kinds of confidence ideas. So for me, it was like a really amazing organization that I saw the effects of the kids that would come into our practices or games. I mean, you saw smiles, right? I didn't see kids that were abused or, you know, that were complaining. Like, it seemingly was an amazing organization. And it just seems like, you know, with all the things that happened, yeah, like this guy, so to say that.

That's the whole thing. He was a complete con man. And, you know, the thing, the thing about con man is they can pull off the ultimate, ultimate con. It's amazing to me because I, when Ed DeCellas was there, I was covering the team a bunch. And, you know, I remember the sign that said success with honor. And I was always, I always carried Penn State is like, man, they're a little bit, they're a little bit, they're a little bit, they feel like they're a little bit better than everybody else. And they might be a little bit of people. A little bit.

And maybe. And maybe that's what makes it worse, is that, like, I kind of bought it. Even if it was the reality for most, it obviously wasn't. It sucks because, because, like you said, of all the associations with Penn State, you can't get into a Penn State conversation that's somebody going like, hey, man, did you, did you know about the Sandusky thing, right? And I personally, I'm buddies with Mike McQuarrie. So, you know, there's a lot of things that hit home with me. Now, my older brothers, one played basketball, the University of Scranton, one went to the University of Pennsylvania and played football. Again, they knew when this was going down, but I was a bit upset about it.

I was frustrated by all the things that were in the media. And I said, well, look, I had a great experience at my school. And I know that they had great experiences at their school, but they didn't have the same amount, I feel of a, you know, kind of like, hey, the things that were classroom, like you said, the success with honor idea. I was part of an organization there, too, that was a service organization. The reason we don't tell people about it is because you do good things because in and of themselves, they are good things. You're not doing it for the recognition. You're not doing it for the resume that I see for so many other financial advisors. I do this in the community and this and that.

Well, no. At Penn State, again, there were things that were citizen of the world. The alma mater, there's things in the fines around campus, like you said, where I don't want to say it's squeaky clean. because any time that something bad did happen, you heard about it. Like, it was brought out. Paterno was one of the first guys, you know, that I ended up against it, right?

And again, going back to John Bow, if there was anything ever going on with our program, immediately, like, we're being called into his office. To have that, when I'm out in the real world, working at Vanguard, people are talking trashy about my school. I said, look, you don't know what that school is like. This sounds to me like it's more of a sociological, you have an hierarchy.

And there people have suspicions. but they're afraid to talk about it, or they're afraid of if they falsely accuse somebody. And I think it can happen. I had a teacher in high school who, and all of us were like, really? Wow. Like, we had no idea that that,

I think a lot of us could come up with other examples, but not to get too crazy on this tangent, but it is Penn State. There is a question I didn't ask you about Penn State. No, it's rec hall. Oh, yeah. Is there ever as, like, it's of the places they no longer play there, obviously, which is a mistake, because the new place is just too fucking big.

I quietly agree with you. Okay. But is, have you ever played at a place that is as perfect for what college basketball is supposed to be about, like Rec Hall? Nope. So let me. Why do they do this? They do this. They did it to my place, Gallagher I, but they made it 14,000's too big.

You know, Oregon, Oregon did it at Mac Court. But now it was built out of wood and it was like a Tinder box, but it was the best, the best. And then Rec Hall was away, like 6,000 seats or some student standing right on the sideline. 7,000 with the standing room only on the track that goes around the top. So people do bring up Rec Hall once in a while, especially Penn State people. They'll say, oh, how was it playing there? And I start with this. I played in a ton of gyms and arenas.

I played in all kinds of places that were. were considered, you know, oh, this is where you're, it's okay to play basketball on the surface. I remember in Switzerland, it was one of those kind of courts where you could take your thumbnail and leave an indentation, like a wrestling back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we played on that surface. Like, this is not a basketball course. So I played in all kinds of places totally tight where the fans' feet are on the sidelines, you know, questionable whether the roof is going to fall in on us.

There's leaks. There's no air conditioning or there's no heat. But when you talk about the absolute, you know, loudest place I've ever played in. I remember my freshman year. I maybe mentioned this earlier in our conversation when we beat Michigan at home. First time Penn State's beaten Michigan, maybe ever at that point.

So loud at one point, I'm on the bench, and my teammate was yelling something in my ear, but because I couldn't see him, I had no idea he was yelling in my ear. So that when I turned and looked at him, I was like, why are you, and he was trying to yell in my ear, I couldn't hear him. The fact that the students,

he's filling up that section, feet on the sidelines. They had to back up the students anytime there was a sideline out of bounce. When they would play the fight song when we came out of the locker room, you could not help. But get electric atmosphere, even when we were playing some bad teams, it was like, let's go. We got our home court. When you play in a cavernous arena, and especially if it's not completely full, because you're playing against Indiana or, you know, some big team. Again, I absolutely agree with you. The same architect that designed the Pellestra in Philadelphia designed rec hall.

They're essentially the same building. And like rec hall, the Pellestra is, and never, ever tear that place down. They didn't tear down Gallagher. They didn't tear down Gallagher. They actually, a guy named Gary Sparks as an architect, did an amazing job of building a whole new, like, section, upper deck over the top of Gallagher. And it's an incredibly impressive bill.

Like, you walk in now, you're like, holy fuck. How does anybody win in here? because unlike other places, like the lower level is, but the second level, which was always there, is on top of the lower level, and the pitch is, it's literally right on top of you. So, but it's just too big for the town. And now you have the thunder that, you know,

and every game's on TV, and they haven't been that good, but it's just, it's just too big. But we, I'll give the example of how the loudest it actually was, was my, well, Kansas, we'd be Kansas by 33, my senior year, but we beat Oral Roberts. And it seems weird to go like, who gives this shit about O'Roberts, which is actually what we said in the locker room afterwards.

So we're playing O'Rour Roberts. Barry Hinson, who is an OSU grad. He's actually back now as like an analyst on the staff. Barry Henson took over. Bill Self was the coach of Royal Roberts. He assisted Oakland State, then goes to Kansas, then goes to Oro Roberts as their head coach.

He gets that thing going. And then he goes right down the street, and he's the head coach at Tulsa. He leaves a guy named Tim Gill is their best player at at at at or u. so or you comes and plays this is like my fourth game or something in Gallagher and we were picked last in the big 12

but we were actually we knew we were gonna be pretty good is my first year there and it was 6,314 people could fit in this building and it was like a thing to go there even when Oklahoma and we were they were just okay the year before two beers before I get there so it's packed we're playing and there's a kid named Philip Owens okay Philip Owens grew up went to Stillwater

high school obviously you go to Stillwater High School you grew up in Stillwater you want to go to Oklahoma State and play point guard so you know we knew when he's coming in we're like this kid's going to want to

you know when he comes into the game he's going to want to show out he comes in the second half and we're down like nine and we're at the free throw line and I put the press on and I mean he shits his he's a freshman

like his first road game he shits his pants we go on a little bit of a run place is incredible last play of the game I think we're up four six whatever, and we get a steal.

My man Adrian Peterson throws it to me. I throw it back to him. He catches. He dunks it and kind of like at the end of one of the scenes of white man can't jump where Billy Hole, where he pulls himself up, he goes, ah, right, to the rim? That's what Pete did. Like, dunks it at the buzzer. I don't remember if it counted or didn't count.

And he comes down and we're like going crazy. And he's like, why are we going crazy? We only beat Earl Roberts. Right? But it was so loud that I felt terrible. for this poor kid. Well, I felt terrible for this poor kid because here he is, like, he probably always wanted to play there. Now he always wanted to kick Oklahoma State's ass and his first chance to do so,

like our team and the noise just swallowed him up, right? It's that feeling. I had this feeling once in college basketball. My freshman year at Notre Dame were playing at Syracuse, the Syracuse team that went on to play for the national championship. And we're up 15th a half, and Jeff Chippola hits a three to start the second half. And they throw the ball into me. and everybody else is running down the court

and all of a sudden we didn't realize Syracuse is pressing and I get like double teamed and I try and call the 22nd timeout and the ball gets poked out and John Wallace does like a windmill dunk and 30,000 people the loneliest feeling on earth is when you're trying to go like help! Help!

And nobody can hear you, right? Which is what happened to him. But I never forget. So Barry Hinson, he's like Mr. Press Conference. He comes into the press conference at Gallagher afterwards and he's like, the old girl got us. And they're like, Barry, who are you talking about?

He's like, Gallagher, I. But she just jumped up and got us and the noise swallowed us up. And it would. Like, you couldn't hear shit. You'd have, you'd have, your ears would be ringing after the game. And it's, you know, it's, it's interesting. Like, NASCAR got away from its core when it started expanding. NHL got away from the war when it went to Atlanta, went to Phoenix, and it went to Dallas, whatever.

And some of those have been successful, some of that. college basketball, I believe, you know, Big Ten got away from its courts. Like Wisconsin, they win in the coal center, but it's like a Oregon. Oh, that old boxing ring place. Whatever it was awesome. It was awesome.

Right? Ohio State's bowl place is awesome. Penn State Rec Hall is awesome. Like the Brazilian Center is nice and it's really cool, but their old place is better. And like, I don't know, somehow we've gotten into this bigger is better, and it's just not.

and I, I, it's a, it's a cautionary tale for some places, although most places have replaced their old buildings. Yeah, look, you can have too much of anything, and, and you hit on a big trend. The success of the stock market in the 90s and then Booster started giving money at the end of the 90s to a lot of schools, and they said, what are we going to do with this? And they started redoing their arenas and various buildings on campus. And nobody, I think maybe Tulane, maybe Tulane built a, gym that was like less than 5,000 and they kept it intimate. They kept that old style of a, you know, having an advantage in your, in your home gym and not just being this, you know,

they try to make them NBA arenas. And it just, it's to me, yeah, but maybe in the next wave of a booster donation, they'll say, let's, let's take down that old arena and try to capture some of that old magic. Pete, I've been more than generous with your time. I can't wait to hear how people react to this. Let's catch up in person very soon. In the meantime, thank you so much for being my guest on All Ball. You got it, brother, and be well, and stay safe through all the craziness lately. Thanks, man. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern,

noon Pacific. All right, let's dig in on the L.A. Lakers. Look, I do think that they've been a little off. I think clinching the number one seat early probably takes any sort of luster to winning any other game. Not having Avery Bradley, and to a lesser extent, not having Rondo has hurt them. I think trying to work in two new guys also hard, guys that hadn't played in the NBA this year, right?

So that's another, or hadn't played in a long time. So, like, there's a lot to it. But the one thing that I haven't heard anybody say that people are talking about in basketball is, like, boy, the Rondon will go by anybody anymore. He doesn't. and I mean he looks like just a monster but not an agile one at all at all kind of alarming on the other hand like look he's in his mid 30s he's played in the NBA for 17 years like this is what it looks like no one is a spring chicken and he does he has that weird look down step back with jibble with the right step back to the left step back jump shot which is you know it's coming and there's not a ton you can do about it But I'm fascinated by if LeBron is going to get exposed this year in the playoffs for just not being a great athlete anymore. And by great athlete, I don't mean great athlete.

I mean great athlete by NBA standards, going by people, making agile plays. It's just all bully ball all the time. They got flaws. They're not a great three-point shooting team. They're better than they've shot. It's harder when you don't have it when you lose a shot creator. You know, you start to get down with two point guards that are G-League guys. early in their career,

I think there's a reason there's some limitations there at the point guard position, and that probably derails them even against the clippers. But one of the big points that needs to be made is, yes, the point guards are, can be disappointing. Yes, they kind of got some mismatched parts since they lacked some shooting. But it would also be who people to point out, LeBron does not look like the same dude athletically. All right, that's it for this version of All-Ball-Ball-my.

Thanks to Pete Lassicki and for you for listening. A reminder, you can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show daily 3-6 Eastern, 12-3 Pacific on Foxport Trader, the IHeart Radio app, or you can download the podcast if you want. In the meantime, thanks so much for listening. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. Are you wasting two perfectly good Saturdays each year? Most people waste two Saturdays getting rid of junk that we could make magically disappear. We're 1-800-got-junk.

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