The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Dan Grunfeld on NBA Upbringing, Stanford Hoops Golden Days, Overseas Pro Life

Episode Date: July 25, 2021

In this episode, Doug is joined by former All-Pac 10 Stanford standout Dan Grunfeld who discusses growing up as the son of longtime NBA Exec Ernie Grunfeld, what lessons he learned being so close to the NBA, transitioning to high school in Milwaukee with his dad taking over as GM of the Bucks, why he was such a huge Ray Allen fan, why he chose to play at Stanford, how he turned an injury disappointment into a solid overseas career, his transition from the court to the business world, and his new book By The Grace of The Game detailing his dad's improbable path from immigrant to Olympic gold medalist and his family's escape from, and loss during the holocaust.Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Remember all those big dreams used to have and then life made other plans? With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back. Start your own business or commit to van life with a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Now, you could win the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode four-by-four that we have, the Dan Patrick show Ultimate Camping Rigs Sweepstakes. To enter, get official rules. Visit Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com.

Have to do it by February 2nd for your chance to win. Did you know Amazon provides ways of working that fit your lifestyle? They know you value your time outside of work, juggling families, school, friends, or other activities. That's why they offer a variety of shifts that work for you. There are full-time, part-time, and even temporary opportunities that can work with your schedule. with great starting pay and sign-on bonuses. If you want a career that fits and adapts to your lifestyle, head to Amazon.com slash apply.

Amazon is a proud, equal opportunity employer. Hey, welcome in. I'm Doug Galdi Ben. This is All Ball, where we have a great conversation with Dan Grunfeld, who, of course, is Dad, Ernie, part of the Bernie and Ernie show, played in the NBA, GM in the NBA, and was the GM of the Bucks. The last time they went to the Eastern Conference Finals. Dan will join us momentarily,

and I think you'll love the conversation about his life, his career, his upbringing, and his new book that he wrote about his family and their dramatic journey to success in America. But before you get to that, let me just kind of give you my quick thoughts on the NBA finals. I want to tell you the best team won, but they didn't, the best healthiest team that was standing one. But that is sports, right? That is sports. That's how sports works. whoever's healthiest, who's ever eligible,

at the end of the day, they win, they get the spoils, they get to talk shit. That's the way it counts. And that was the Bucks. They were dead to rights beaten against the Nets. They'd be by 40 in game two. And then Kyrie sprains his ankle. Of course, James Hardin was already hurt.

And they lose because Kevin Durant has his foot over the line at the end of regulation in game seven. But when they're full strength, there's no question the Nets appear to have been better and a good matchup for the Nets against the Milwaukee Bucks. I don't think they beat the Clippers. I don't think they beat the Lakers, but I don't think it matters because they beat the teams they had to beat and they won the championship and Yannis made 17 out of 19 free throws.

It doesn't make Janice's free throw fix complete. It doesn't mean the bucks are the best team historically in the NBA. They're going on a run. It just means they won the tournament and they get the trophy. That's what it means. Crazy though, right? Mike Boonehosa was about to be fired. Now all of a sudden, they're NBA champions.

It takes the National Guard to get them out of there. The other part is, you know, I've long told people that the new rules, you know, when I say new, I mean, last 15, 20 years of existence in the NBA, they actually help non-shooters that can huge bodies play downhill more so than they even help shooters. LeBron James before he was more of a shooting guy. And now what you do, it will do with Janus. I guess that that even points out even more what's lacking in Ben Simmons game. But these guys getting downhill, playing with angles, getting by you,

using their body to fend you off and attacking the defense, that's the new basketball. All right, without further ado, let's get to our interview. Here's Dan Grunfeld, Stanford alum, who joined me to talk about his journey through basketball. All right, so let's do this. Let's start with growing up. So my basketball. basketball background. Obviously, my dad was not your dad as a player. But he was a player, then high school coach, then college coach. And I was born in Wisconsin. He's a head coach. He did Milwaukee. Then he moved to Orange County when he was an assistant in Long Beach State. When you were born, where were you born? Where were you born?

In northern New Jersey. So Livingston, New Jersey. Okay. So where was your dad, what was your dad doing when you were born? my dad was a player for the Knicks. And actually, so my birth was scheduled around two of his road trips because my parents wanted my dad to be there for my birth, but also for my brist, right? Which happens eight days later. And so the Knicks schedule was that there were two road trips. And so the first road trip was in Texas. And that's the trip where Bernard King had 50 points back to back night in Dallas and San Antonio. So he had those legendary games.

And then my dad came home for my birth. And yeah, he was a player for the Knicks. So what's your first memory? Obviously, like, do you remember any of the Knicks stuff and your dad is a player stuff when you're a kid or is it more what people have told you? More what people have told me from his playing career because he retired when I was two.

So it was still a little young for me. My sister's three years older. She's five. She was five. So she remembers, but I don't remember him as a player. But obviously he was then executive and general manager for many years. So my whole childhood was around the Knicks. So really my first memories are.

in Madison Square Garden, but he just wasn't playing anymore. I tell you, so my dad had a guy named Kurt Taji, who wore 44 at UWM. And there's other reasons I were 44, but that was like, I thought he was the coolest guy, and I became, I thought the number was cool. Who was your first, like, Nick that you fell in love with when you're a kid? John Starrs. You know, and there were a lot of players who I love, but really John, like, because I was a shooting guard growing up and he was a shooting guard, and he just played the game

with so much passion and heart. And I was in such a privileged position that I knew him. You know, so I would see him at practice and we would talk. And like, man, he would just, he would set Madison Square Garden on fire. Like every other team, the league hated him, right? Because he was, you know, he would talk smack and he was like a little bit brash. But man, I just love John Starks. Yeah, he's, he obviously in Oklahoma State alum as well, kind of interesting.

Well, I always find it fascinating. I was having a buddy named Brian Montanati. He's joined me on the pot. He's played with me in Oklahoma State. he played 10 years of Italy. And he's a high school coach now in Oklahoma. And we were trying to describe to people like why our group. Because 95 they made the final four.

I wasn't in that group. 2004 they made the final four. I was in that group. We made the elite eight, but we never won the league. And yet our group is way more popular, I think, now than kind of any other group outside maybe a big country, right? and I was trying to express to people like just sometimes there's unique groups that come together that fans fans get with I feel like and part of it is they did go to the NBA finals I feel like

that era of the Knicks is like that right where they didn't actually win the championship they never really won anything but there's there's something about John Starks there's something about Anthony the late Anthony Mason right there's something about those guys that Knicks fans gravitated towards more than just the fact that they actually got to an NBA finals. 100%. The spirit that they played the game was just resonated, man. And New York is blue collar, you know, working, you know, hard work, toughness. And that's how they played, you know, and that kind of great determination. Like people just love those teams.

And they were good and they did have success. But it was more than that. It was the heart and soul of the city, you know? And so like for me growing up, like having kind of backstage access to that was amazing. but all my friends in Northern New Jersey, everyone just loved the Knicks, man, because it was just like you could get behind that, you know what I mean? Yeah, how did you deal with that?

Because as much as they got behind things, when things are not that good, Nix fans, especially kids, like kids, because kids echo the sentiments of their parents and what the parents say, you know, in their own homes, but a lot of times kids don't have the filters that parents have, right? When they're out kind of in public, how did you deal with it?

that. Yeah. I mean, you kind of have to learn early that that comes to the territory, but it's not pleasant and it's not easy. Like, I would always have kids at school be like, Nick suck or, you know, like this and that. And like, yeah, dude, like, it's not fun. And I think it makes like, and I have a lot of other friends who kind of grew up around the NBA, it makes families kind of insular, you know, because you, you rely on each other and you become very close. And so my parents were really great with me and just always always told me, like, you know, you're going to have a lot of friends and people who care about you for who you are. And like, those are the people that you want to, like,

bring in closer and trust. And there's going to be a lot of people who might not know you as well and who might say things, but always trying to make me understand that like it wasn't, it wasn't personal. It wasn't about me. It was just kind of how people are. But yeah, man, it's, it's tough.

Like there's a lot of perks that come with with having like a famous dad or access to really cool things. But yeah, there's a lot that comes with, and let alone like the media. You know, you'd, you'd wake up in the morning with,

you know, your dad's, you know, face on the cover of the paper, you know, being criticized and things like that when they're not winning. And then, of course, when they're winning, it's a different story, right? But yeah, those things are tough to do with, particularly for a young kid. How old were you when he took the buck's job? So I was 15. So he was let go in New York,

my freshman year in high school, and they actually went to the final. So he had traded for Latrell Spreewell and Marcus Camby, and it didn't quite work out at first. He was let go. And then it worked out in an amazing fashion. He was already gone, right? But he then got hired by the Bucks. And So I moved from New Jersey to Milwaukee my sophomore year, which seems really random, but my mom is from Milwaukee. So I would visit there every summer. And my mom and dad met when my dad was playing for the bucks. Right. So like my family had this history of Milwaukee. So it wasn't like as random as you would think, but still tough to like at that age when you're in high school trying to like come into your own to move. Like it was a tough thing.

Okay. So let's go back for a second because yeah, what was your dad like during those times? It's like it's, I think the hardest thing, there's a lot of hard things about parenting which you're going to learn, mine a little bit older. But it's how you process work stress and home life, right, is got to be, you know, especially at a very public job. And then the Knicks go to the finals and he got fired. Like what was, what was your recollection of what he was like during those times? Yeah.

You know, listen, my dad is an amazing person, but he's an amazing father, right? So his first priority has always been his family. And he always tried to, like, insulate us from all the pressures of his job. And so he also, and I said this before, like, he has very big shoulders, literally and figuratively, like he's a massive guy. But he knows that in his position, you have to take a lot of that, right? So he tried to really bear the brunt of all the kind of stress and disappointment. But that's not to say that there wasn't a lot of stress and disappointment.

I mean, and we'll probably get into this more later. But like, my dad grew up as an immigrant in New York City watching the Knicks and the nosebleeds, not even being able to speak English, right? So then not only did he play for the Knicks, but he ran the whole team. So that was, you know, it was a very hard thing for him, I know, and for our family. But it's also the nature of the business. And, you know, luckily he got an opportunity right away with an awesome team in Milwaukee. And they went to game seven of the Eastern Conference Final.

So his career just really took off after and everything happens for a reason. So, you know, it was a tough time, man, but he tried to insulate us as much as he could. Okay. So you get to Wisconsin, your guy from a jury, you're a Jew from Jersey. You're a Jew from Jersey with a Jersey accent. What was all your last three years of high school? Amazing. Honestly, man.

Like, like I was so lucky to go to, I went to a top public high school in Milwaukee, Nicolet High School, which actually is a basketball powerhouse now. You know, just sent Jaylon Johnson to Duke. And, you know, so it's a great basketball school. And it was a strong school then. Amazing place to kind of, you know, grow as a basketball player and as a student. And so it took an adjustment, right, when you, you move and you have to make new friends and figure it out. But, you know, when I, when we got to

Milwaukee, I was like 510, 145 pounds. I played freshman basketball in New Jersey. So like, you know, I thought I, you know, I had good skills and I knew my dad was really big. My mom was big. And the doctors kind of said, like, this kid's going to be pretty big. So I knew I kind of had a growth spread in me. But I just didn't know what I would become as a basketball player. Right. So, I mean, I started varsity as a sophomore. But, you know, I was like seven points a game. I was six to 16-165. but then I'm 6-4-185, and then I'm 6-605. And by my senior year, I'm a top-hundred player, and, you know, Stanford was kind of knocking on the door.

And so my kind of ascension happened quickly, but I don't think, I'm not sure it could have happened if I didn't go to Milwaukee, honestly. Do you, do you, what were kids like to you? And I ask you this because I think one of the hard things, I stay back because I had that, I had a gross per, obviously people like me, you had a grocery for your six feet tall.

I was like five foot, five one when I finished eighth grade the first time. Then I was like five, nine, five, ten when I entered high school. So during that year and three months, massive gross work. But there was always a, I thought a group. And my high school was really, it was very good for public high school as well coached. We have a lot of success. But I always felt like there was a group of the more popular kids that weren't as accepting of me. because I didn't grow up there.

You know, I grew up even five miles away, but didn't even grow up there. For you, grew up in Jersey, you don't have sweat equity with these kids. Right. Did you ever feel like there was any animosity towards you kind of parachuting in and becoming a basketball star? Honestly, man, not at all. And I think it speaks to the community that I moved to. Like, people in the Midwest are just like very accepting nice people.

And like, I really found that. They accepted me with such open arms, truthfully, man. I never had, I never felt. a lot of that, you know, pushback. Maybe it was happening. I was just oblivious to it. But like, no, it was, it was all love. Like, people embrace me.

They tried to help me feel comfortable. And like, basketball, as you know, like, it's the universal language. It's the vehicle. Like, I just started playing hoops and making friends that way. And, you know, that, that really kind of just helped me kind of assimilate. And yeah, the community was like so accepting. So I have nothing but fond memories about my time, Milwaukee. Were you guys in Whitefish Bay?

Where were you? So we were in Fox Point. So I went to Nicolay High School. but my mom went to I Fish Bay High School. So you know the area well. Like, you know, that's right outside the city of Milwaukee. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Who was your favorite buck during those years?

Man, those years were so awesome. The answer's easy, okay? It's Ray Allen. But I have to think because they're so just of that team, right? Because you have the big dog and you had Sam Casale and I love Tim Thomas. But dude, like Ray Allen, you know, this is when Ray is 24, 25 years old. like just an absolute superstar in the making. Like not only could shoot the ball, which everyone knows,

but he was so explosive. Crazy athlete. Crazy athlete. We played against him. When he was at Yukon, we played against him. And a couple of things I remember. So he had the biggest calves I had ever seen like, like normal size legs, maybe even skinny legs.

And then he's like, if you could carve out of granite what somebody's calves are supposed to look like, I remember that. And then he drove to the middle. And what we were doing was. And we did it against Villanova. It didn't work either where I was guarding like Duran Sheppard was like a foot taller than me. And every time Ray would put the ball on the ground, I was going to go and almost like double the ball. And so he comes off a curve like a pin down on the weak side.

I go in kind of almost to help. And he goes up like double, almost like triple clutches and then shoots the ball. Like people forget what a freak athlete he was because their snapshot of Ray Allen is, well, Miami Heat Ray Allen or Boston. in Celtics Rayon, where he had made himself into one of the league's best shooters. They forget that that's like Ray Allen 2.0, 1.0, he did a little bit of everything. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast,

The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space

for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, This is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford

and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid?

Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keer Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free, our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Everything, slashing, in transition, I mean, dunking the ball.

Like, he was such a monster. And culturally, like, he got game had just come out. You know, just a few years before. And so I was like, man, like for all those reasons, I just love Ray. And then because my dad's the GM of the team, like, I'm working out at the practice facility. I get to know him. And as great of a basketball player as he is, he's a better guy. The nicest guy in the world, such a role model for me.

And so like I just looked at it. And again, like someone who played that shooting guard position, right? So in New York, it was like John Starks and then Allen Houston. And then it was Ray in Milwaukee. He learned so much from watching him and all those other guys. And, you know, again, like they lost game seven, 2001 in the Eastern Conference finals to really right, but they had a chance. I mean, they were knocking on the door.

So, like, those were awesome years. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox SportsRadio.com. And within the IHard Radio app, search FSR to listen live. Okay, so why did you choose Stanford? BetRour's Sportsbook wants to invite you to discover the complete sports betting experience. The foundation of that experience is a massive number of betting options on nearly every regulated sporting event around the world.

Add on top of that live streaming of sports every day. There's almost always a live match to watch on BetRivers Sportsbook right in your phone. BetRivers features top-tier customer service, ready to answer your questions any time, day or night. Plus, they have this unique rush-pay system, and BetRivers Sportsbook can authorize most withdrawal requests instantly. Customer satisfaction is always their number one priority, and BetRivers will match your first deposit up to $250. Now, unlike some other sportsbooks, BetRivers only requires a one-time pay-through and turn bonuses into cash. So you're going to experience the difference. Just go to bettrivers.com.

You'll see it for yourself. You must be 21. It must be president in Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, or Pennsylvania to play. You had a gambling problem called 1-800 gambler. Remember, BetR-R-R-S-B-R-R-S-B-E-R-S-D-R-S. When was the last time you seriously considered your dream? Did something never thought you would do? How about live the van life and a totally customized Mercedes-Benz Sprint or

van. You could tour the country, whatever you want to dream up. And we're talking about Mercedes-Benz van here. Expect innovative safety features like cross-wind assist and blind spot assist. Expect performance and reliability with that MBUX voice command system. You're going to get five-star dealer network available with the gas engine. Now you could win your very own Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode four by four. You entered the Dan Patrick show Ultimate Camping Rigs sweepstakes. You go to Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com, and there you enter, get official rules for a chance to win this beautiful Mercedes-Benz sprinter van. Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com and you have to do so by February 2nd. Your dream is waiting for you. Danpatrick.com, Fox SportsRadio.com. Some equipment described is optional.

Hey, All Ball Community. Listen up. Two of three men experienced some form of hair loss by the time you're 35. And it's one of those deals where you're like, what do I do? How do I avoid this thing? Is it smart? Don't be a statistic. If you're a little bald or a lot bald, fix it in a simple stress-free way. Try Keeps. What you do is a virtual doctor consult at keeps.com.

And then the medications are delivered straight to your door. Slow cost with treatment starting at just $10 a month for FDA-approved medications and they can prevent hair loss. Keeps is more five-star reviews than any of its competitors. And don't walk around with pattern baldness. We all know it's not cool. It just doesn't feel right. Prevention is, in fact, the key. So if you're ready to stop messing around, right,

you got a new year, a new energy towards fixing the little things like hair loss. You want to prevent hair loss. Go to KEPS.com slash all ball. You get your first month of treatment free. That's K-E-E-P-S dot com, keeps.com slash all ball. So I wanted to go to Stanford since I was in seventh grade. So my sister's older than me and my grandmother lives in the Bay Area. So when we were visiting her, we visited Stanford's campus for my sister to take a tour.

And Stanford was like number four in the country at the time, great academics. And I was a good student. And I said, man, and it was close to my grandma, who I'm like, I talk to every day. So it's like, this is where I want to play. But as you said, I'm a slow Jewish kid from the suburbs. Like, you know, odds aren't amazing for me. But you just kept kind of grinding, put in my head down working and really kept my eyes set on that. And even like as I started getting recruited, like my AAU coaches and all that, they told people like, he wants to go to Stanford.

You know, so the Ivy's recruited me in other good kind of academic schools, but it was always about Stanford. And, you know, you have to, you have to be good in some ways, but you also have to be lucky. And I had a little bit of both those things where like I played well, but I also played well at the right times. And, you know, Stanford went to the final four in 98. So they were like number one in 2001 right when I was getting recruited. So they were like a top top program. And like, so it wasn't like a shoe in for someone like me to go there. But it just worked out for me, man.

And I couldn't be more happy about it. It's just such an awesome experience. Okay. So you get to Stanford. Who's there? On the team. So Josh Childress is a year older than me. And he's really our best player.

But honestly, like we had a lot of very good, but not like great, great players who then would go to the NBA. So guy like Matt Lottick right now is the coach of Valparaiso, right? Matt was, we were playing the same position. He was two years older than me. So kind of took me under his wing a little bit. you know, Julius Barnes was a very good all-pack-10 player who had a nice career in Europe. So there were guys who were just like really, really solid.

But Mike Montgomery was the coach. And he built a system, man, that was so efficient. He recruited tough, skilled, smart people played together. And like, we were first or second in the pack 10 at that time for eight years in a row. Like, it was just a powerhouse. And so, like, my freshman year, we were a four-seed. And my sophomore year, we started the season 26 and O and we're a one-seat. Like it was, it was really a roller coaster, man.

Yeah, that was, I mean, that was like the dream year, right? Your sophomore year was the, was the, was the game, wasn't Tiger at the game against Arizona? So, Doug, that, so we were 19 and O, right? We're playing Arizona. Keep in mind, okay, Arizona's starting five, Mustafa Shakur, Selim Stadamier, Hassan Adams, Andre Aguadala, Channing Fry, okay? They're all NBA players, one of them is the finals MVP. And then you have Stanford, we have Josh Childress, but all good role players.

We beat them in Tucson when we were four and they were three in the country. Now we're two and they're 19 and we're not, I think no, they were 12 and we're 19 and no, right? We make a shot at the buzzer, a half court shot to win the game to become 20 and O, Tiger's court side and it was my 20th birthday. So I'll never forget like it was my birthday dude. And we just had this magical, magical thing going on. What I've always heard Stanford is just different.

It's just different in a great way. And it was one of my schools I wanted to go to. And Moni, and I told me, see, my brother worked for Moni for six years. He was just too honest, because he called me and offered me a scholarship. And he's like, okay, so here's the deal. We have Brevin Knight. You'll back him up for two years. And then you'll play some with him.

And then you'll be the starter for two years. And I was like, coach, thanks. Love Stanford. Think you were in a great program? Not really interested. And they signed Art Lee instead of me because I wanted to start as a friend. It was really kind of that simple. But every guy I met from Stanford, it's like the guys from Notre Dame.

It's like the guy from Oklahoma's thick. Just kind of OK, geez, right? The are kind of guys. But give me the, give me like, all right, so when Stanford guys sit around, we tell stories, here's a story of what it was really like. Yeah. For a lot's hilarious about Monty. He is very honest.

I think that was part of his success in a way, but also like, you know, that that candid nature. It's not for everyone. But that was kind of his structure, right? Like you come in, you don't play at first. You take your lips, you pay your dues, then you kind of move up. So it's funny that you went through that. Stanford is a unique place, man. It's just different.

Like, ultimately, it's an amazing place. The values are really right. Like the people treat each other well. There's a lot of innovation. There's a lot of, like, you know, Stanford's a great school. So there's a lot of like intellect there. But it's not even about that, dude. It's just about ideas and being supportive of other people and thinking big.

So it's a really, really special place. after I retired professionally, I went to business school there. So I got that taste of it as well. I'm like, so I spent six years on campus and I just love it. But to your question, like when the fellows are hanging out and we're talking, it's the same stuff, right? We're telling stories of old games and old parties and this and that. But like, you know, the thing that's interesting about Stanford is that when you're a student athlete,

in particular, like, when the football team's awesome, when the basketball team's awesome, like you'd think you'd be like the toast of the town and the biggest thing on campus. But like, there's so much going on there and people have done so many cool things. Like, you're just kind of a face in the crowd, on one hand, it's different, but it's also cool because you're just like part of part of the deal. Yeah, it must be interesting, though, having gone back to business school there, how when you were there, Maples was arguably the best atmosphere in the league. And now it's one of the worst, right?

It's one of the worst. Some of that is they haven't been successful over the last decade, but some of that is that all of that innovation, all that other stuff has gotten even bigger in Silicon Valley, right? And even bigger at the school, whereas sports matter less and less, even when football has gotten really good and basketball. It used to be the happening place. It used to be the kind of crown jewel of Stanford with Stanford basketball. It was crazy, man, like Maples.

And, you know, we used to have this floor that bounced, which actually they replaced after my sophomore year because we had several stress fractures in people's feet. But like, oh, they replaced that? I didn't know that. I remember my sophomore year, we had three guys with stress fraction in their feet. So they said maybe that contributed to it. So they replaced it.

But like that was our calling card. Like our fans are jumping. The floor is bouncing. The ceiling's about to pop off. Like it was the hottest ticket in town, man. I'm telling you like. And to your point, like it hasn't been like that. And you know, the program like I'm of course very still close with the coaching staff and

huge supporters of them like gotten great players. Like we've, you know, we've, we've had our moments and still trying to build up. But yet it had, MAPLs has not been hopping like it was. And it's a bit of a bummer. because, like, I take my wife back and, like, you're telling her about the glory days, but we're looking around and, like, you know, it's not exactly how we remembered it. But listen, like, I have faith in the program and the coaching staff and I'm in the kids they've recruited. But, yeah, to your point, like, it hasn't quite been, you know, what it was.

So, you know, we're hoping to get back. You get done playing, right? You don't get drafted, but your dad's in the league, whatever. take me through your process, I've decided to immediately go overseas. Sure. So my junior year, I was first team all pack 10. I was, you know, one of the top scores in the conference. I had a really, really strong mirror.

And so there was rumors that I'd be like late first round pick if I left. So I was thinking about leaving. And at the end of the year, I tore my ACL on a fast break in a nationally televised game. By the way, Tiger was court-eyed at that game, too. He used to come to one game here. So I remember I was lying on the table after I hurt my. knee, like my dreams were just crushed. And literally in my head, I thought, I wonder if Tiger will come back and, like, you know, give me some love. Like, I wasn't in my right mind then,

but in my senior year, I just wasn't right. You know, I went from average 18 a game to 12. And so, you know, I played summer league with Indiana, but, you know, it was very marginal. So, I had an opportunity overseas in Germany, took it. You know, I'd never been to Europe. I didn't know anything about European basketball. And I played over there. Like, you know, I was just shocked at how high the level was the way they play. And so I immediately kind of fell in love with, like just the whole like I was doing what I always wanted to do. I just wasn't doing it in the league, right? But I was a pro player. I was getting paid. I was ball and I was just like it was really fun. And of course like I always wanted to play in the league and I got close with the Knicks

and training camp a few years later. But you know, ultimately like my career in Europe, man, was super fulfilling. Take take me to, okay, so what year was it where you're in camp with the Knicks? 2008. Okay. Who's the coach? It's, it's Mike Dantonie's first year, which actually really was an advantage for me because everyone was new to the system. but coached Antonio system is really like pass and move. And that was the type of player I was. Like, listen, you weren't going to give me the ball in the wing for an ISO at any level, particularly in the NBA, right?

But if you're passing and cutting and that kind of stuff, that worked for me. So I really, really had a strong training camp. And yeah, it was an awesome experience. What is that like, though, too? Because I, again, I wasn't at your level, and I didn't get to training camp. But I remember I was in Summer League with the Lakers. and I went to a couple vet mini camps for them, whatever, and every year would be the same.

Where I'd go in there and I was really kind of emotionally, mentally timid, like, hey, just, you know, you got to, you know, you're not a Laker. You know, like in my mind, like, you're not a Laker. You got to earn the right to be a Laker. You got to kick everybody's ass. You got to be early. You got to be perfect. And I put a lot of pressure on myself.

And then the more you do it, the more you're like, well, I can do it. this, you know? And then you walk in the building and, and again, I don't know what the nature like, but I'm guessing it's the same. It's like, now you start to know the secretary's name, you know, all the trainers' names, everybody, NBA people generally, they treat everybody with an incredible amount of respect. Like, even if you're not, I have no chance of making the team, like, you want to massage, all that stuff. And by like day three, you start to like envision yourself, like, what, what if I was a Laker? That would be kind of good, right? For you, dad played in the league. grew up there, dad was the GM.

I'm sure there was a long relationship there with Dan Tony. What is that like to go through the emotional ups and downs of, dude, I could make this team to them calling you in and going, yeah, you're not going to make this team. What do you remember about that? I tried to stay even kill and just focus on the work. It's easier said than done, right? Because like if you start like, you know, projecting out of what it could be,

it's hard to deal with that. But to your point, like, you just have to earn your keep when you're like a training camp invite or a summer league invite. So I always just tried to like work or like prove my worth. There were moments because like, you know, where I was playing in Europe is a high level. And the NBA, of course, is the highest level in the world. But the difference, you know, between a good overseas player and, you know, maybe like a bench player of the NBA or like, oh, you know, one of the last guy's bench like, it's not that much. So all of a sudden you start playing, you're like, yeah, I could do this, right? And I would have days.

I was like, dude, I call my buddies, like, you won't believe the guys who were guarding me that I was calling for the ball because they're like, I was bigger than them. Like, these are guys that I grew up watching. And you kind of realized like, oh, I could do this. And it really just takes discipline, man, to like try not to get too much in your head. I can't say that I was always successful because I, and my dad played for the Knicks. And I grew up, you know, idolizing this team. And I was like, the one thing is they had 15 guaranteed contract. So I knew someone needed to get traded, cut, or bought out.

Stefan Marbury was a teammate at the time and there was rumors that he was getting bought out. So I was like, dude, if he gets bought out, like maybe I slide in when it didn't happen. I was bummed, but the other part of it was, I was also like kind of, and we can get into this later and I'm sure we will and be talking about my book.

Like, I had a very intense basketball career, right? And you probably can relate to this, Doug, like, if I could go back and do it over again, I'd want to smile more and enjoy more and worry less. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of players say that, but, you know, I was rarely content, you know? And that was one rare moment where I felt like I gave everything I had.

I showed that I could compete at that level. It didn't happen to work out. But I was also like, oh, I'm at a really high level in Europe. And I was content in a way, which is strange to say, not only because I just like got cut from an NBA team, but it also was a feeling that I rarely had playing because like, you know, there's so much kind of pressure and stress and meaning behind basketball. And again, it relates, you know, closely to my book, which I know we'll talk about. But we all have our stories about basketball, why it means. so much to us. You know what I mean? So like that the next thing was kind of like a culmination

for me of all that. Favorite country you played in. Israel. And I'm lucky because I had really good stops overseas. So I played a year in Germany, three in Spain and four in Israel. Like these are good leagues, really good countries to live in, made great friends. Like I had such a cool experience. But for me, like, and you played in Israel, right? So you know, like, it's the same team. I played. Yeah. Benihas Sharon used to be Maccabi Ranana. So did you play Metro West? It was at the Jim you guys played at? So we were, we were in Hertzaliyah at that point. I have played in Metro West during the Maccabia games. That's actually where the gold medal game was. But, but yeah, so yeah, you play, there was Renana at the time, but I played for Benio Chiron. And, you know,

that's in this Renana and Herzlil are like two of the nicest cities in Israel. And that's where I lived my first year. So I was like, you know, and listen, like different leagues have different qualities. So I was in Spain for, you know, the middle three years of my career. And we practiced twice a day. Like, I could barely get off the couch when I got home. Israel. it's a little more relaxed. And at the end of my career, I was cool with that. You know, practice once a day, enjoy, come home, hang with my wife, go to the beach, like eat falafel.

Like, I look at my wife and I would look at each other sometime like, dude, this is what's up because it was just so awesome. It was so great. It was so great. Like my thing was, I didn't really get along with Sharon Drucker. I actually thought it was a good coach. I played for Sharon in Jerusalem. He and I also didn't get along particularly well, but yeah, we have nothing.

respect now. I like this. In hindsight, I loved his practices because all we did was play in his practices. Like, I don't remember,

I don't remember doing a bunch of drills. I just, just the way in which I think we, and he had, he had coach Miles signed the year before me and Miles and him got lost. So I had a little bit of that negative bias.

Yeah. And then I'll tell you something interesting that happened. So I played for him the year after, like this, right season right after 9-11. So they called me right after 9-11 and wanted me to come over and play.

and it was dumb negotiations about money, but it dragged out so long that at the time I registered, I couldn't play the first four games. So I went through training. I missed the little training camp. I went through training with them. And the first four games, he was like,

Goadlieb, won't you, you be like a coach, coach with me, we'd go to meetings. It was great. But I actually, I knew too much from B sitting in, like I sat in on coaches meetings. And we'd go through a kind of strategy,

of scound reports. And I'd watch it because I didn't have anything to do. I didn't have, you know. So he started calling me professor, bro, professor Goddly. Professor, you know more than we know. And I was like, bro, you're the one who asked my opinion. Now when I give you my opinion, you don't like my opinion. It's really weird.

Anyway, my point is that I was in Russia the year before, which our team was unbelievable. And I thought our coach was really, really good. And yet living in Israel, playing in Israel, Israel was like you go in and you lift in the morning, get some shots up, you come home, and the weather was great. And hey, you want to go to the beach. And you weren't like, you weren't going to kill yourself at practice that night. So you were as in Russia, like, bro, we lifted hard for an hour.

We worked out hard for an hour. Then you come home and life is hard because it's cold and you're bundling up. And then you go home. You're just like, I got to go to sleep. And then get up and then bump and bump five on five and drills and stuff for practice for two hours. It just was harder. I guess Israel was better.

Here's something people don't realize soon, but you will, like road trip. So like in Russia, like if you were playing a road game, like you'd get on a bus. In Israel, it's such a small country. It's day of, right? So I had come from Spain where we'd be taking 12-hour bus rides, Germany too, or if we'd fly, it would still, like you'd be gone for two days and it'd be like really tough travel. Like in Israel, you're playing in Haifa, which is a little bit far. It's like, that's like a two-hour bus ride.

That's like the long one, you know? So that part of it, man, it was just. like such easy living. The basketball's good. The people are cool. Like, and then for me, like, being Jewish, having family in Israel. And, you know, my dad almost went to Israel. Like, you know, they ended up coming to America. But like, all my other family members went to Israel. Right. So, like, there's something meaningful there as well to, like reconnect with family in the past. So for all those reasons that I just loved it there. Yeah. Yeah. Plus the falafels big time. And actually the falafel, but all the food. Like my wife and I came home like snobs. Like we've come

we'd be in a restaurant in the States like, well, this produce isn't fresh, you know, because like, it is. Also, also you never say hummus ever again. Yeah, exactly. Hummus. It's not hummus. It's just not hummus. It's not how to pronounce it.

Okay. So you never played from a copy Tel Aviv. Why? Well, I would have if they would, if I would have gotten the offer. So like, let's, um, that was. I understand. Why didn't they like, what was it? So my first year in Israel for, for Benacharon, I was the leading.

So I counted as his. really, as you probably did, just on account of being Jewish, right? So that helps kind of with the quotas. And so I was the leading domestic score in the league. I had a really good year. Our team did really well. So I was like kind of sought after. And David Black called me and I thought that it was going to happen. You know, so there was like a week where I thought I was going to play from Maccabi. They ended up going in a different direction. And I actually signed with Hologne very briefly to follow my coach, Dan Shamir, who's an amazing coach. They had some financial stuff. So I ended up going to hop ball Jerusalem, right? Which is kind of like the second

biggest team in the league and also a really strong club. And so never, never. Did you play for in Jerusalem? So Odette Katash brought me. And, you know, Odad was just a legendary player. And actually, when my dad was GM of the Knicks, my dad wanted to bring Odette to be the first Israeli player, but it was during the lockout. So there was a lockout.

And then I think Odette eventually signed with a team overseas and he never made it to lead. But he was an NBA caliber player, just an amazing player, great guy. And then he was let go in the middle of my first year and actually, on Drouker then joined and I had Drouker for for my last year. Katash was, he's a different cat though, right? Like he retired mid-career to like go and find himself. Didn't he?

Like he's an interesting dude. Listen, for the, I love this guy. And he is just like a legend. He's a great guy. And there are just, there are different ways to be successful in life and in business and everything else. And like, I learned a lot from Odette because like he's the type of hands off coach. Like I remember one time after practice.

our assistant was like, Odette, free throws. And Odette looked at it. I was like, whatever. He said, I don't care. Like, have him shoot free throws, have them don't. Like, when I was at Stanford, like, you were shooting 20. You were registering how you shot it. There was a database.

You know what I mean? Like, Odette was like, shoot your free throws or don't. But I'll tell you this. He won a championship in the Israeli league with Khalil Goboa, like a few years before he came and coming to Jerusalem. It works. You know what I mean? Like his, he was hands off, but he trusted his players, you know?

Right. You can do it with pros, but you got to have the right pros. You have to have the right pros. Doug, it didn't work in Jerusalem for us. We struggled because we didn't have the right pros. You know what I mean? So that's your point. Yeah, it's got to be the right people.

Totally. Yeah, I just coached in TBT. And, you know, with those guys, we played a game and they were exhausted. And I just, I said, hey, we got a shooting time in the day. Let me know if you guys want to go. And I expected none of them to go. And then, you know, they all showed up. And it was, it was great.

But I was like, I actually didn't want them to go because I wanted the rest of their legs. Then we got eviscerated. in the second game. Why did you close the debt up? Why'd you quit? Yeah. You can relate to this, man. I mean, like you put your heart and soul into it for all those years.

And you know, you just know, right? And there was a point, like my last year. So there was my fourth year in Israel. I went back to Hurtzilea. Because I had two kind of disappointing years in Jerusalem. And I thought I'd revived my career. I still physically was okay. Not that ever I was that great physically,

but I had whatever I had to begin with where I could still do some things. but, dude, I would, I would be groaning, tying my shoes before practice. You know, like, just physically, like, I just, and literally a weekend, I called my dad. I was like, I'm done, man. Like, I just don't have it, you know, and also playing overseas takes a toll because you're away from your family, all those years. And Israel's like the best possible. This is the thing I think now.

Now it's a little different. You know, when I remember when I was there, and this is like a 102 is, you know, you can watch ESPN, remember, but there's still, there's, there's parts of your life. life, which you are missing up, right? Like, you know, it doesn't, you can play fantasy football there, but it's just not the same on a Sunday when, when, you know, the games are on at different times and just parts of your life that you take for granted about our country that you can't do.

And, and, you know, you have cousins that have kids and people get married and go on and seeing other people play their sports and just your regular life that, I don't know if people conceptualize, they, they only vision. you, hey, I'm going to get money and put that money away and have a bunch of money when I start my life, which is great, but there are things that are sacrifices. So I'll tell you this, man. Like I always say, like, my wife, my wife, she was my girlfriend for a time over to my wife, but like she was over with me for our last five years, right?

If it weren't for her, I don't know how I would have made that trip over because I had the comfort and that kind of connection. But like, it can be isolating. And like, you know, I have a lot of empathy for international. players who come to the NBA. And like fans will just like, they don't know how hard it is to leave everything you know, the people you know, the places, the things, that to come to a country that's not your own. And for me and Israel, like, I had every advantage. I had family. They speak English. It's amazing. I had my wife with me. Dude, you had to drag me to the airport, man. By my last year,

like, I'm almost like hiding in my bedroom closet, dude, it's like to go back over because I'm just like, oh, you leave everything. Right. So people don't get it. But then also when you look at young Europeans in the NBA, like, I have a lot of empathy because I'm like, they left everything behind and it's hard. Okay, so did you quit midseason? Did you finish out the year? What did you do? No, I would never quit midseason. And like, I never quit on my team. Like, I was trying. Like, I did not have a great year. Like I mustered all, all my energy. But no, I kind of knew, like, this is going to be my last year. And actually, I wanted to make it like the best I possibly could. And so I still tried, you know, I worked and I competed. But, you know, when your heart kind of checks out a little bit,

really hard because basketball's so competitive, man. And like, and that's how it should be. Like, if you don't fight tooth and nail for everything, someone else will, and it should be that way. And there was a point in my career where I was the guy outworking and out fighting people. And then I got the point where I was getting outworked and out fought by guys. And I guess that's a natural cycle, but like, finished out my career. But like, honestly, as soon as the buzzer sounded on my last game, broke into tears, man. Just, just. You know it's over? Just cried. Who was it against? Who was your? last game against. Funny. And I actually, I write about this story in my book because it was against

Hopwell-A-Lat lot. And you know how it is in these leagues. You get relegated if you're towards the bottom. And Harts-Lia is like a good club, like should never be in danger of relegation. And we were this year. And it came down to the last game of the year. The last game I knew of my career. So I'm like, geez, like, can I just sail off into the sunset with this thing? Like, and I'm playing like crap. And I'm like, oh, can we just, you know, end this on the positive note? The game came down to the last possession. We were up one and they had the ball. And actually a teammate of mine from Jerusalem, a national team, awesome player, Yvall Naimi. I don't know if you remember him, but really, really good player. He had the ball to win the game. And at the buzzer, he missed. So like, and our

fans stormed the court, you know, and I did, I just put my hands on top of my head and just started to cry. And I looked in the stands of my wife and she was crying because like, listen, this is a, this is a lifetime pursuit, man. And you know, you put everything into it. I, growing up, going games with my dad, working out with my dad, like everything that he went through and my family went through to get me the opportunities I had. Like, it all just came out at that moment. It's interesting. So I have two end of career stories. So my last game in Russia, it was my first year professional. But this is when I probably knew right then and there, like I wasn't cut out for European basketball or maybe even professional basketball.

So when I went to Perm Rush, I played with Eurogray, and I played as an American, and I joined them in January. And we only lost one game the whole time I was there, which is crazy in our European League. And the only game we lost was because I played with the juniors against CESCA because we had won the league in advance automatically to the semifinals. So it was like our last regular season game. Right. And those guys got to go on vacation. And I had to stay and play. So I was really hard because I went from like, I'm a facilitator by name.

nature to like now I'm the guy and I took a bunch of shots. I missed a ton of them. Anyway, so my last game, Russia, we win the Russian championship against Eunice Kazan. And it's in Kazan. And they have a small arena, but it was packed and there's kazoo's whatever. And I was getting like a 50 grand bonus or somebody else. I was really excited about it. Yeah.

But the way in which that series went, we were so much better. They would start me and I would, they would try and press to start the game and you couldn't press me and then we get a lead and they take me out and then once we get a big lead willie burton who's the other american they take him out too because they wanted the rushing guys to win to be you know to get but so i didn't hardly play that much and i just remember winning the championship and everybody was celebrating and i had no feeling in my body right and i was like and the juxtaposition of that and a year earlier when i lost my last game with oklahoma state and we're at Syracuse, like I felt like it was like a death in the family.

Right, right. I can tell you every one of my losses in college and every reason why we lost and everything I should have done better, right? Like I can tell you exactly what I did. I didn't give a shit. Right. The only thing I cared about was, oh my God, I just made $50,000 and I barely fucking play. And I just was like, this is not what I got into it for.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'll say it. Yep. That's me, Clifford Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about. life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford

and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at It podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because, of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack.

So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing.

And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro.

Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app.

Search learn the hard way and listen now. And so then I went to Israel and it was okay. And then I was, I got a chance. I actually did broadcasting for a year. I came back and played in France and I really liked it because I had a younger coach. He was a black guy from like the Martinique or whatever. It was fun. So my actual last competitive professional game, I don't know if I've told the story on the pot.

So we're playing, not Lamont, somebody from up like near Normandy, like Nancy or something. I'm not sure. Okay. So we were, I was brought in to replace a guy who was injured to try and get them to the first division. And we were like in third place in the top two teams went. And I think we went like four and one the time I was there, maybe six and one or something. We lost one minute. I remember like the day of the game, the other team, we get done shooting around.

And this is where like I actually enjoyed a little bit of the isolation. I signed a deal and they said, we're not going to give you a car because you're going to live like two blocks from the arena. And it was only for like two months. I was like, all right, whatever. So I had this little studio. I get up in the morning.

I go across the street. I get a cappuccino and get like a Danish. I'd walk to the gym, lift weights, shoot, hang out a little bit. Then I walked to a cafe where I got free food and the chef would come out and say something in French. I didn't know what he said. And I would like, we.

And he would make it for me. It was amazing. Anyway. So my last game opened that we get out done with like a shoot around and the door opens for their bus. And it's my high school teammate, David Lalazarian, who went to Notre Dame the year after I went. And I had to lead. So we never played together as college players, play together. But all of a sudden he walks out the bus.

And so too does Kelvin Gibbs, who I had known growing up. He played at Pepperdime. I played him my senior year in school. And so Kelvin's on the team. David was like traveling with the team. they were trying to put him on a contract for next year. End of the game, I'm talking shit to his French point guard

we're winning and he wants to fight and these other guys score off and start fighting and I get kicked out of the game with like 14 seconds ago in my last professional game. So I'm blowing kisses to the crowd. I'm doing this day, you know, to the crowd. And my wife and David are actually sitting up in the stands

and I walk underneath them in that little vomatorium area, right? And I'm like blowing kisses. and all of a sudden I hear this rush sound and the guy comes to want to fight me in the hallway and they're huge melee. Anyway, I'm suspended six games in France if I ever go back, just be aware.

That's hilarious. I did not go out with the tears of joy and mixed emotions, but I do know that feeling because that year I had it and then the reason I didn't come back and play was I got a full-time offer at ESPN. And I couldn't even get myself to play pickup ball. Yeah.

You know, for like almost a year because I just had this one, I had my shooting mental block thing was really, it was, had gotten better. But it just, it really bothered me sometimes to play basketball with people. And then, too, it just wasn't the same. I just didn't love it because it didn't mean anything. Everything, like I like basketball that means something. Even if you go play in a park, like, I want to stay on the court or I want to play with a friend and I want to, it wanted to mean something. Like it got to a point where it didn't mean anything. Yeah, I didn't touch a ball for a year after I retired.

And it was, you know, I'd say a similar thing like needed a break, needed to kind of like decompress. And like basketball is such an accessible sport, right? Like you watch it, you root for it. But you know, like if you haven't lived it, it's hard to really understand like the pressure that how much it means. Like, and how much you have to put into it to get to some of those levels. You know, sort of got like you and I like, yeah, we had some ability. But it's not like you can just walk on the floor. at any time in Dominate, right? So you have to really devote your life to getting to the level

you want to get to. And, dude, it's just, it's an amazing journey, but it is taxing. Did you know Amazon provides ways of working that fit your lifestyle? They know you value your time outside of work, juggling families, school, friends, or other activities. That's why they offer a variety of shifts that work for you. There are full time, part time, and even temporary opportunities that can work with your schedule, with great starting pay and sign-on bonuses. career that fits and adapts to your lifestyle, head to Amazon.com slash apply. Amazon is a proud, equal opportunity employer. What grows in the forest?

Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start experience. at Discovertheforest.org.

Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky.

They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. So you get back and when did you decide to go to business school? So my last year playing, I knew that like, okay, I want to, because, you know, I had done well

academically at Stanford. I was really, I like to learn. And I was like, I want to go back to school. So I was studying for the test. And I joke with people like, I, you know, I focused a lot on that. And it probably showed on the court, but also on the test because I did really well there. But like, you know, so I, I took a year. year and I work at the NBA for my first kind of job post, post basketball, which is also weird,

because then I'm like, I'd be like sitting at a desk at noon. And I'm like, I text my friend, like, dude, I'm just like sitting here. Like, this is what I do now. Like, you get used to it. Now I said, yeah, that's what you do. But like, there's that transition when you're used to just like, yeah, lifting and practice and resting. And now it's like, oh, I sit at a desk. But, you know, so apply. I have a friend. His name's Gabe Frank. He's a doctor in North Carolina. But he also to play the Maccabee games team with us in 2001. Anyway, he went from playing in the CBA, he went to Wisconsin-Stevens Point,

to being in medical school. And he was like, his first, he almost, I think he almost flunked out and he really struggled. And it wasn't because he wasn't smart, but he was just so used to the basketball lifestyle, which basketball lifestyle is, we all think we work hard, but you can only be in the gym so long, right? Like, yeah, I spend all day in the gym,

like, no, he didn't. You went there. If you went hard, you know, you lifted hard from 45 and you went hard in the gym for an hour. And then he came home, you got some to eat. And then he came home and he took an app. Yeah, exactly. And then you hung out. You played video games all day.

And then you called some friends. And then you had practice that night. Right. So he was like used to that lifestyle. Now he's, now he's in medical school. Like, yo, we don't like take an app in the middle of the day. We don't play video games in the middle of the day. Like, you got to study all the time.

And then residency was really hard for him. It's like as athletes, you do have to work hard, but it's just a different pace and pattern than how my friends I would call them civilians than how civilians love. So true, man. And like, so there was that adjustment for me the first year, you know, applying to business schools, got into Stanford, which was awesome. You know, such a great program. And like, I had the time of my life there.

Like, it was a great kind of accelerator for me. And just to, you know, because again, like you go through this very intensive athletic pursuit, but you have your whole life in front of you. And I was also lucky because I had a great example in my age. dad. Like, he had an awesome career and he was a legend in all these ways. And 31 years old, he was done playing. 31, right? You're still a young man. And so, but I saw like his career after bat, you know, after playing, you know, it was, it was bigger than his playing career, right? And so, like, I had that great example of like, you need to build after you're done. And so,

you know, love, love my experience at business school. And I definitely recommend it for, for players who have the kind of the desire to do it. Because I think it's just an awesome experience to learn not only like about the business world, but learn about yourself. plus the people who are around you, right? Like, I'm sure Stanford Business School, there are probably some pretty successful people that go through those halls. Amazing, yeah.

It's like, and just like amazing friends and like push you and challenge you, but like, yeah, like the network, right? The Stanford Business School network before and after is really powerful in your personal relationships. And, yeah, wouldn't trade for the world, man. Why do you think, this is a question. Okay, so real conversation I had.

I'm a big believer in the value of the network, right? But that's the real reason you go to college. You don't go to college because anything you'll learn. I learned a lot in Oklahoma State marketing. I learned a lot at Notre Dame. It was kind of like Stanford where the level of intelligence of everybody there and the ideas who was really profound was just above any sort of level of what I was used to. And so what I told those guys is like, look, Oklahoma State basketball now has kind of become a little bit of a dysfunctional family because we've had

a bunch of different head coaches. And some of the head coaches weren't, weren't about the basketball family. They were just about their basketball team. When we were there, it was all about the family, right? And to this day, if I need something, those are the guys I talk to. Those are the guys I call on. Those are the guys I depend upon. And so I said, look, let's, let's fix that. Do you guys need anything you call me? I know Stanford's like that, where you guys are super, super close. I think a lot of schools are like that. But why do you think that in, I just feel like maybe the media,

we do a bad job of helping people understand what the real value to college is. Because we're in this mindset where the only thing that is of value is actual money. And I don't, I don't think that's the case. Don't get me wrong.

You know, some guys come from tough means, a little money does help. Absolutely helps. and the money you make as a professional athlete should help you in that next life. But that next life is all about who you're going to pick up the phone and call when you want to start your life. And I just, I wonder why in society, we don't understand the true value of who you know and who you meet during your time in college. Yeah. I mean, listen, I mean, I think everyone's different, right?

And like, college is not for everyone, which is, of course, fair and cool. and everyone should just do what is comfortable for them. Like, for me, I really appreciated the opportunity in college to, like, to meet different types of people, you know, and that was so, that just broadens your horizons a lot. And Stanford's a really cool place because it is such a diverse student population. But, like, that's really stuff that I'll take with me forever, just like meeting friends from different parts of the world with different interests.

You know, I wasn't just hanging out with basketball players, although I did a lot of that, right? but even my teammates are from all different parts of the world. So, yeah, I think that, like, the college has a ton to offer. I think it's important to talk about it, you know, in the classroom, out of the classroom, you can grow a lot. But for those who, like, aren't academically inclined or who aren't interested in college, I think, I don't think it's the only path either.

Yeah, it's, I don't know, it's going to be interesting to see how it evolves with so many different options for players. What it looks like five years from now, what it looks like 10 years from now, Whereas I think kind of growing up, like for me and you, it was all they ever dreamed about was playing in college, right? Yeah. It's all I ever dreamed about. And I talked about that with a lot of people. I did a podcast of Maurice Claret.

And he was like, look, I grew up in Youngstown, Ohio. And when I grew up, all anybody cared about was playing in college, right? Right. And it does feel like that has evolved and changed, whereas college to many people. And I think it's how we, it's like, it's not really a way station. It's a place you stop. And then maybe you go to another destination afterwards, but you stop, you unpack, you grow, you evolve.

And I feel like we diminish that. Okay. When did you decide I want to write a book? So I've done a lot of writing over the course of my life. So when I was playing professionally, I had contributing writing positions to several websites. And I had some success with my writing. I just love it, man.

Even as a kid, like my mom and dad will tell you, like everyone knew me as like a basketball player, but I'd come home and just like write stories. And even when I was writing, when I was playing like, People weren't paying me. I just loved it, man. So I was writing articles and things like that. And I always knew that there was like a white whale project for me, which was this book. And so my dad is the only player in NBA history as parents survived the Holocaust. And so my grandparents were Holocaust survivors have a very, very big story.

You know, my grandmother was saved twice by Swedish diplomat Raul Wollenberg, who's like one of the greatest heroes of the Holocaust. My grandma lives here in the Bay Area. I came to every home game I played at Stanford. So like we're extraordinarily close. And, you know, when I was talking before about, like, why I cried when my career ended, what it all meant to me. Like, basketball is a miracle for my family because my dad came to the United States, nine years old, having never touched a basketball, didn't speak English, really growing up in the shadows of the Holocaust. And his brother passed away right when they got to America, like really, really tough background. And he went to the park to play hoops and make friends and learn English.

And, like, you know, 10 years later, standing on the podium as an Olympic gold medalist for the United States, you know, shows you what basketball can do. So for my family, man, I've lived this life of like, man, basketball is such a profound impact on us. And so, and since I love to write and since the story means so much to me, I was like, one day I'm going to do it. And so when I was in business school, since I had a little bit of space after my career to like think about things and really like look into myself and inside of me and be like, what do you want to do? And I said, listen, I want to do this. This is probably the most important thing I'll ever do just because it's our history and it's an important story. but and I said this like if you're going to do it you need to approach it like you approached hoops like for basketball I got up in the morning I'd eat I'd go to sleep I'd work out when I got up

you know it was all discipline and so I was like if I'm going to write this I have to write it so I'd get up at 6 a.m. every morning for eight months and write the thing and so you know and that was after a year and a half of research so it really is uh you know it just came a time was like this means the world to me I want to I want to get it out there but to do it you just like anything else you you have to put your mind to it and be disciplined. Did you sell it first with like a rough outline of what it was like? Or did you write it and then shop it? It's a great question.

So I knew very little about like the book business before I started writing it. And how you would usually do a project like this is you, like you have an idea, right? And like there's also a lot of like really big stories about my family, like how they got to America and fleeing communism and all these things. And also my career and how it's kind of like all under 12. because I grew up privileged, right? And we talked about that, like with opportunities, my ancestors couldn't have imagined, right? So I knew that there was a big story here.

So usually what I would do is I'd put an outline together. I'd write a sample chapter, a marketing plan, then find an agent. Then the agent would sell that idea. Then you would write the book around that idea. I did it backwards. And I dealt with some professors at Stanford who kind of mentored me a little bit through this. And one of them in particular said, they were like, you know what?

This means the world to you. You've written a lot. write it. I think this person kind of sense like this is like really in my heart and it needs to be said. They're like, you don't, you want to write it. So like I just put my head down, man, and just wrote it. And then after I did that, I got an agent.

Then I built a proposal based off the book that already existed. Then we got a publisher for it. Did your wife edit it? Like who read it and gave you the first like legit feedback? So my wife has a master's in communications and she worked as a copy editor. So she's like, she helps me with all my stuff. She's amazing, amazing. So honestly, though, Doug, like my, my, my, my, you won't believe this, man.

My parents didn't know I was working on this for the first three and a half years. I never, because like, when you, when you talk to it was like, what are you, what are you doing, Dan? What are you doing with your time? I mean, like, I listen. Writing a book about our lives. I would, you know, once in a while, it's like, you know, I'm working on a few things. But, and I also interviewed my dad's like a year. But I told him, I'm going to, I'm going to work on things and a few, but I just want to, like, know all these things.

But like for me personally, it's so it's it's so deep and meaningful that like I had to just kind of like go into my own world with it. And and so, but when it was finally ready when there was something to be seen, it was, you know, my wife, of course, read the first one. And we went back and forth. And it's been, dude, I've been working on for five plus years at this point. Like it's a, you know, a book is like a labor of love in every way, particularly one like this, man, where the story is big. And not only is it big for me personally, but for me, there's always felt universal, right? Because. The themes are survival, perseverance, family, legacy, sports is a way to build bridges. And I always just had this sense like, man, this matters to the world, right? Like these type, not just this story, but these types of stories, right? This is just one of many stories that matter in this way. So I was like, I just want to tell it because I think, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of really hard things. You know, when you're talking about, when I'm talking about what happened to my great

grandparents in Auschwitz where they were murdered, really, really difficult things. Like my dad never had grandparents. All of his grandparents were killed in Auschwitz. it's, you know, but at the same time, the story is hopeful because my dad, you know, played in the NBA and his Olympic gold medalist and was a long time, you know, executive in the NBA. Like, it kind of is like a dream can come true situation and certainly the American dream, you know, so, man, just such like a personal, personal pursuit to tell that story. I also find that this story now I need to be told, but there's a lot of people who need to

understand it, right? Because there's so many, like as time goes, not enough people know the story, right? They just don't. You say Holocaust and it doesn't really, when you say like six million Jews, 10 million people, now it's going to be like, really? And it's so hard to fathom, right? Because of all the different struggles we go through, right? Like, you can't even imagine in your mind the atrocities that were committed less than a century ago, three quarters of a century ago, right?

So it needs to be told. But what is the feeling like when, you know, like Myers-Leod saying, saying kike, right? And other people, you know, using not really understanding what they're talking about. Like, what is that like for you who not only has a family who survived, but you've also researched it. And when you research it, it becomes even more tangible, more real to you. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, listen, it's upsetting. Like anti-Semitism and really injustice in any form is upsetting. And for me, yeah, for to not understand kind of what happened and what's at stake when there's injustice, right? And then I know that we all not all too well, right? And to your point, it wasn't that long ago. Like, Doug, when we get, when we're done here, I will call. call my grandma because I call her every night. And we're going to just talk and she's going to

face time with my, with her great grandson. She's 96, man. She was there, right? Like, she was there. Like, it's like, you can say like her parents were killed. Five of her siblings were murdered. Like those are just words, but that happened to her. Right. And so like, that, that's, that's where someone I love, one of the people I love the most in the world, she went, she went through that. Right. So like, yeah, it hurts me when I see that, like, anti-Semitism and also it not being kind of, know, taking as seriously as it is. And again, that goes for all forms of injustice. And I think I was always raised to, like, stand up when things are wrong.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, CliverTaylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered, competition. conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jette. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a here. unpack what went down and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Then you're finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for Black. Black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, We get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross,

because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keer Gang.

is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. Because you know what's at stake. And like, it could be, you know, whether it's Jews or, you know, other groups who are being like persecuted or discriminated against, there's just no place for it. And yeah, it's super personal for me, man. It's super personal.

Okay. So I know social justice is a huge part of who you are. but you'll have people that'll say, you know, there's like, look, Dan, white privilege. That's how you were able to, your dad was a general manager, you went to great schools, then you'd go to Stanford. And my pushback, not being you, would be like, hold on, dude, his dad got off the boat and everything he got he earned for himself. And we're in a sport, which is predominantly black. And every negative stereotype given is given to the white basketball player that you have to find a way to, overcome. If I said to you or if somebody said to you, Dan, you're a product of white privilege.

What would your response be? I would agree with that. And I'll tell you why. I am in no, I'm a product of privilege, right? Because I grew up in a privileged environment where I had opportunities and resources. But as a white man in America, I benefit from privilege. I think that's how our society is. And I think that's, you know, that's fair to to acknowledge. And I'm happy to knowledge that, like, as a white man, you know, I have advantages unfairly that some of my black friends don't, right? And I do think there are there are injustices in society that are important to call out. But that being said, like everyone, everyone has their own journeys as well. So yeah, my dad is. But aren't those, aren't those, my pushback would be aren't those privileges

earned, right? Like, you go into Stanford. That's because you worked your ass off in both school and sports, like, I mean, I think, I think there's athletic privilege. I don't think we're talking up about. There's socioeconomic privilege, you know, and I don't know if I don't know, I have a tough time just because I do understand that people come from different means, but you're describing to me a, you know, family in disarray that comes to this country and, and earns everything they've had, and yet you're saying that you're somehow privileged for what's been earned previous to you. So I think like for instance, for me getting to Stanford, for my dad making it to the NBA, that wasn't privilege, right?

Because there are no gifts in basketball. That's hard work, right? But I just think in society as a white male in society, you benefit from privilege just based off of that status because there are inequities in our society. I think that's the reality. But as it relates like my success or my dad's success, there's been no privilege at all because my, like, my dad earned what he, what he got, and I earned what I got on the basketball

according to the classroom, right? So I got to Stanford because I worked my ass off in the classroom and on the court. You know what I mean? And my dad came, went from, like, this really, really tough background, not speaking to language. Like, I mean, it's, it's amazing, like,

what he was, where he was able to get from where he started, what is truly a miracle. And it was through hard work and perseverance and all these qualities that were inside of him. So, like, the success that, like, he had that I had was earned. But I do think it's really important to acknowledge that as like white males in society, we do benefit from privilege because of like the inequalities that, you know, that are president.

When when somebody reads this book and don't, you don't tell people, you tell people basically kind of the premise of it. One story that they're not going to believe that you're going to really, I cannot believe. I just read. Oh, man. That's an awesome question. Once, well, listen, I don't want, we've already touched on some of the more difficult things, you know, I'll tell you something that people won't believe, because this is a story that

is not really well known. So my dad is fled Romania as a refugee, right? So my dad was born under communism and my family fled under duress, right? And so living under communism, you're not allowed to have anything. You can take anything out, right? So it's, you know, this is pretty, pretty hard life. And so my family was able to accumulate money illegally, right? Because under communism, you're not allowed to accumulate things. And they were always, they were searching for for ways to get it out. Right. So because, you know, everything was searched. You couldn't take anything out with them. They were able to, and they had several thousands of dollars by then, which was like a fortune in those days. So my, my grandpa was like, hell, Ben, I'm like, we're getting this money out. How are we going to do it?

The way they were, and they had American dollars, which by the way, if you were caught with American dollars, like you're going to prison, you're maybe being tortured, maybe being killed. So this is like pretty high, you know, like high-stakes stuff. My grandparents were able to smuggle their money out by eliciting the support of one of the biggest celebrity comedians in the United States, Buddy Hackett. So Buddy Hackett was filming a movie in Budapest. And my grandparents knew someone who was working on the movie set. And they were able to convince Buddy Hackett, who was like,

one of the biggest celebrities in America to smuggle their money out for them and send it to their family in the United States. So when they already put it, they sent it to my grandmother's brother, who's already settled in the Bronx with extra money on top, by the way, saying good luck in America. And so when they got off the boat, well, they actually flew. But when they got to America, the money that they were able to start a life with was illegal money made under communism in Romania that was smuggled out by one of the biggest celebrities in the United States of the time.

Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world.

Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest. Service and the Ad Council. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinnwity host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them

with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and families and the Ad Council. If I could be you. And you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way...

To get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. We've all felt left out. And for some, that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that.

Learn how at belonging begins with us.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council. Walk a mile in my shoes. Have you been to the concentration games? I haven't. I haven't. Me either. I want to go.

You know, I had an opportunity where I wasn't able to. But listen, like, I actually talked to someone today who told me about that someone in their family visited Alpsvich. And this is a non-Jewish friend. He said it was one of the most profound and chilling experiences that they'd ever had. I felt that when I went to Yad Vashem. Every time I've been to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, just I just, I am like brought to my knees every time just the atrocities. And look, I'll be honestly, I wasn't, it's not the same, but you're in the National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis?

It's at the Lorraine Hotel where Martin Luther King Jr. was shot. And so they still have the room intact. And then the museum is built around it. And obviously there's not six main people, but when you visit it, you walk away just, embarrassed for your country. You're just sitting there going like, how did, granted, you know, my family is like your family. Like we, you either treated people with respect, you know, or, or you wouldn't see the light of day, right? But you just, you look right. You're like, how do, how, how do people have that within them in humanity, right? And,

and the Holocaust is just to a completely different level. I, I do want to do it. I just don't know, like emotionally, I'm not really. I still don't think I'm prepared for it. But it's like one of those things where you got to I have this discussion with my kids because I have three children and their mom is not Jewish and, you know, two of them go to like a Jewish day school and one says she's an atheist. One says he believes in Jesus. And then their sister's like, you know, I believe in God. I can't really figure it out. And I try and tell them like, listen, I don't actually, doesn't actually bother me if you're not Jewish. Like I love you to believe what I believe. But if the more I say, you need to believe what I believe, then the less likely it is to happen, right? It either happens or it doesn't happen.

You know, I just want you to attribute your respect and hopefully believe in God and know their staff for life, we'll all be together, et cetera. But your last name is God. That is a Jewish last name. If there is a time in which people get singled out, you're going to get singled out, whether you like it or not. And you have to understand everything that kind of comes with it, right and that's when those conversations those visits i i think become uh really necessary but i i just think like we do a terrible job as a society in not teaching people about the atrocities of the past and they like you don't want to scare kids but you do have to educate them on the evils that did roam the earth no doubt about there there's been some really troubling data around

like holocaust awareness and there are other things too where like just people aren't educated on, but like, yeah, people have to know, have to know about these things. And so that's kind of one of my hopes with the book is that younger people will engage because ultimately it's a, it's a story about some of these things that happen, but the rapper is basketball. There's a lot of funny and fun things and about, you know, growing up and, you know, playing the game and the game, you know, how my dad's path, my path. And so, you know, there's, there's that really accessible part of it. But my hope is always that younger people will engage and in the process, learn about some of these things because, I mean, like, the data has shown, like, I forget exactly what the numbers,

where it was like half of, half of, like, millennials hadn't even heard of the Holocaust. It didn't even know, right? It was something like so disturbing and didn't even know, like, what Auschwitz was or thought it was, like, you know, didn't know the number six million and things like that. And so, listen, you know, all these really troubling things in history, regardless of, like, who it happens to, we need to learn from a man, because, like, their humanity is capable of, of a lot of great, amazing love and amazing things. but there's a lot of really, really bad things that can happen.

And so that's why, like, you know, treating people well, standing up for what's right, standing against injustice, regardless of the form. It's so important, man. And so I hope my book is just like a small part of that. Okay. A couple of basketball things before we ended. You were a great shooter. Where did you aim?

I appreciate you saying that I was a streaky shooter. So if I was in my, if I was like in my comfort zone, I could be light. out, but I was a little bit too analytical. But you know how it is. Like, you're your own your set in me. So I could definitely shoot the basketball, but I wish, again, I could go back and like kind of retrain my mind to shoot it a little more comfortably. But you know what? I try to aim like front rim, you know, but obviously over the front rim.

But I was more like front rim than back rim. But I was always, I always kind of thought like I always wanted to shoot naturally, right? And like not aim and just kind of like. Did you watch the flight of the ball or did you only look at the target? I think I mostly looked at the target. I'm like trying to go back and think, you know, so I don't, I don't quite remember. I usually like when it left my hands, I had a pretty good sense of what was going to happen. You know, like when I was on and there were times like, you know how it is, like when you're feeling it.

Like the ball swings you and you shoot it and you're like, well, I know what happens. I know what's happening there. Like that's going to start running back. Like those are the best feelings. And there were times where it wasn't happening. You're like, uh-oh. That doesn't feel right. So I don't really remember if I tracked the path of the ball.

I might have though now that I'm thinking about it. You step in or one, two or hop into your shot? One two. Always left right? Yeah. I mean, like we worked at Stanford. Montgomery was big on this, like trying to develop the like, I'm a right-handed player.

So left-right would be natural for me, like trying to be comfortable right-left because if you're coming off a screen, a down screen on the right side of the floor, like you're going to curl around where like you want to take like right left into the shot, you know? So we would work on that a lot at Stanford, like stepping, in with both feet, but my comfort was just like left right. I always kind of admire people like J.J. Redick is so good at like hopping into it.

You know, he seems to get good spring off it. Like my, one of my weaknesses in my shot, like when my legs went or I got tired, like, you know, the jump shot comes from the legs a lot. Like my shot would get a little flat. And I sometimes think back, man, if I had that good hop step, maybe would have given me a little more spring. You're the funniest teammate you ever played with. Man, that's such a.

Carlton Weatherby. my teammate at Stanford, man, just the funniest, funniest dude. And we're the same grade, same age. And we would just laugh nonstop. And then, of course, professionally, like I played with other guys too, like, you know, Lee Nailon, who you probably remember playing the league. Like, Lee and I played. I just saw last week.

Oh, yeah, like, I know Lee's coaching now. Like, Lee just had me rolling, man, on the floor so many times. Like, you play with guys who just, like, are really, really funny. But I had a lot of teammates at Stanford where we would, we would, man, have a lot of laughs. Dude, did you ever, did you know tech? To all this time, did you ever, do you feel like you knew tech? No.

No. So the game you mentioned, when we hit that half-coord shot to win it on my birthday, right? Like the fans rushed the court. It was like, it was madness. So finally we get into the locker room and Tiger came into the locker room to talk to us. You know, so it was like, it was the, and that was 2004. So he's like the biggest celebrity on the planet. And I'm not, that's like not exactly.

Pete Tiger. Yes. Yeah. It's like, it's like peak tiger, right? So he and he was married to Elon at that time. So they both came in the locker room. And actually, I remember he went around the team and slapped us all high fives. You know, and we're all just like little kids like lining up.

And he missed me. I was the last dude and he missed me. And he turned around. And I was like kind of like, oh, man. But I guess I didn't have like whatever the gust to be like, yo, Tiger, could I get some love? But Montgomery, to his credit said, hey, Tiger, give grunny some love. Give grunny some love.

And he turned around and it was like, you know, like the two hands met. And I was like, oh, man, that's the best. that was my most interaction with them. I never got a chance. But I had a couple friends on the golf team who said that he came and talked to them and did some like drills with them where they would like chip into a bucket or something. And my buddy's like, yeah, like us guys on the team like at 10. Like if you made like one, two, three, like it was good.

And Tiger would get like eight, nine, ten. It would just be like, boom, boom, boom. It was like, dude, it was next level. The most successful Stanford guy who you were friendly with for any period of time, one of your two times at Stanford. Wow. So, you know, the founder of Instagram was my class, Kevin Sistram, like, I knew him around, but like he doesn't, I mean, that was, that was a huge, you know, a huge outcome. You know, Issa Ray, who's a very big, you know, actress and media personality was a year behind me at Stanford. Of course, like a lot of athletes who have done really cool stuff. Like my guy, Brooke Lopez just won an NBA championship, which was so cool. And Brooke, Brooke came the year after I left. And actually, I've heard you tell a very funny story about Brooke and Robin because I know you, you play with Alex, right?

Yeah. So I know you know those guys. But, yeah, listen, like, there are, and then there are a bunch of people like in business school who just like have started companies that are doing like extraordinarily well, which is like. I mean, the founder of Instagram, that's pretty, right? Yeah, that's. Did you ever get hit up on investing any of these things? You're like, well, I'll tell you this. Okay.

So it's Instagram. So you're going to take your. own picture wherever you are. You're like, yeah, great idea. You'll appreciate this. So like, my, at Stanford, you have random freshman roommates. A lot of schools like you, you, you know, yeah, which was great. So my random freshman roommate became my roommate all four years at Stanford is one of my best friends in the world. But he was, he actually played on the football team briefly, but he wasn't recruited to Stanford as an athlete. He was a mechanical engineer major. So ours, and we were all, he lived with all, there was a lot of other people on the team, our sophomore year that we lived with.

So he was the only non-basketball player. And he went to a career. And he went to a career fair like on a weekend. And we were like, dude, we're watching movies. We're hanging out. You're going to a career fair. And this was 2004, our sophomore year. And he came back. He's like, dude, like I got this job offer from this little company, like Facebook. Like they had a little booth. Like, I think it's pretty cool. We're like, dude, hang out. Like, we're just chill. Like, it's not about that. And so he didn't take that. And so we look back on that. We're like, sorry, man. You were right. Like, we were probably died on the right side of history there. Okay. So you've, this is like your life's work, right? This is your, now what?

It's a great question, man. Like, first of all, I do love to write, so I would love to see more opportunities to be able to do that. But I just, like, honestly, like, I really want to live in the moment with this project now because the book comes out on November, right? So it's available for pre-order now and that all that stuff has gone really, really well. There's been great engagement around and enthusiasm around it. Like, unfortunately, As you kind of you reference this, it's really relevant because of not only like the increase in anti-Semitism, but just in general, right, the different kind of injustice in our society. Like stories like this are really are relevant now, not that they've ever done it, but

there's been really good engagement around it. And so like, you know, just trying to like stay in the moment, you know, share the story with people and then continue to just kind of like honor this history, man. I'm like my grandmother. She's really like she's the hero. She's my hero. She's the hero of the story. She is a hero.

And this is something else that's in the book. Like she was able to obtain false documents to survive on the streets of Budapest during the war, but she risked her life to obtain 17 other documents for other people too, right? So she's quite literally a war hero. And for me to like memorialize this and just to be able to kind of like live her values, like that's the most important thing to me right now. And if I'm able to write more things and of course do more things professionally, basketball is always a huge part of my life.

Like those are all things that I care about a lot, but just like to like live my grandma's values. man, that's all I can ask for. All right, last thing. You mentioned Milwaukee's placement to high school. Your dad was the GM there when they went to the Eastern Conference finals the last time around, right? To see them as NBA champions. And what's really interesting is part of the story's not told is the New Yorkers from MSG came over and bought the team, right?

And they had a vision and they weren't allowed to move it. Herb Cole was like, I'll throw in $100 million, but you can't move the team. Right? So they built the practice facility. they built the new arena and they're NBA champions. But for you to have seen it, it wasn't the darkest time when you were there, right? But to see it and now see them as champions and see what that city is going through, what's it like? It's awesome, dude.

Like, I'm so happy for the community to see 65,000 people in the district, like, supporting that team, you know, and also to see like, it's such a likable team, right? Janis, like, what a human being, let alone like just the amazing player, Drew Holiday, Chris Middleton, like, These are just like stand-up people playing the game the right way for a community in a city that I really care about, something that's not very well known. So you mentioned my dad's history with the Bucks. So my mom and dad met through the Bucks. So when my dad was drafted, you know, he got to Milwaukee said, hey, any nice Jewish girls in town? Oh, you should meet Nancy Kahn. So my grandfather on my mom's side was the original lawyer and a part owner of the Bucks.

Like this is in the 70s. So like my family's history in Milwaukee goes back. 50 years. And in fact, when the Bucks won in 71, my grandfather got a championship ring, because again, he was very closely affiliated with the team. For my bar mitzvah, he gifted me that ring. So I have a Bucks championship ring from 1971. So it's actually funny because my dad is in the NBA for 40 years, but I'm the one in my family with a ring, you know, and I remind him of that. He'll say, I do have a gold medal. I'm just, that's just data sharing out of you, right? But yeah, man, so like my grandparents born and raised in Milwaukee, man.

Like our roots there are so deep. So I have so many dear friends, man. So to see them win it and the way they want it and see like a city that I care about so much, like have that success. Just awesome. Just awesome. So exciting. Dan, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you join me. I can't wait to read this book.

I think it's a movie. I'm sure you have the movie rights to it. And the second somebody in Hollywood reads it, they'll make it into a movie. I appreciate it. And I really appreciate to join us on the pod. No, thank you. This is awesome. It's great, you know, spending time and catching up.

And really appreciate this. Thanks, Dan. You got it, my man. Talk to you soon. Quick reminder of the Doug Gottlieb show is daily 3 to 6th Eastern, 123 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, the IHeart Radio app, series 617 and 203. My thanks to Dan Grunfeld for joining us. I hope you pick up that book.

I hope you enjoyed it. I'm Doug Gottlie. This is All Ball. Did you know Amazon provides ways of working that fit your lifestyle? They know you value your time outside of work, juggling family, school, friends, or other activities. That's why they offer a variety of shifts that work for you. There are full-time, part-time, and even temporary opportunities that can work with your schedule, with great starting pay and sign-on bonuses.

want a career that fits and adapts to your lifestyle head to amazon dot com slash apply amazon is a proud equal opportunity employer another podcast from some s nl late night comedy guy not quite on humor me with robert smigel and friends me and hilarious guests from bob odenkirk to david letterman help make you funnier this week my guess s n l's mikey day and head writer streeter sidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter where does your group perform we do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care where I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey,

or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how

we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite office. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.