The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Duke and Sparty Finally Rollin'; Lakers Video Coordinator Max Hooper on Luka, Beal, Lillard, Steph Scouting Reports

Episode Date: February 25, 2021

In this episode, Doug gives his take on Michigan State and Duke starting to roll after slow starts, and is joined by Lakers Video Coordinator Max Hooper. They discuss the day-to-day grind of breaking down tape for the Lakers, what he's seen on tape from stars like Luka, Bradley Beal, Dame Lillard, and Steph Curry. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard,

but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Remember all those big dreams used to have? And then life made other plans. With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back. Start your own business or commit to van life with a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Now, you could win the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode four by four that we have enter the Dan Patrick show Ultimate Camping Rigs sweepstakes. To enter get official rules visit danpatrick.com or fox sportsradio.com have to do it by

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Max Cooper is our guest. Remember Max? He played at Oakland. He also played at St. John's and at Harvard. He's now an assistant coach in the video room for the L.A. Lakers. but there isn't actually a video room. It's a virtual video room. What's all that like? And wait till you hear his life story,

his amazing late father, like all of these things. It's going to come together for you. He's a special dude, and I'm so honored that he would join me on this pod. I do want to get a little bit into college basketball and a little bit in the NBA. First in college basketball, Michigan State trending up,

Duke training up. Obviously, Duke, the Jalen Johnson story has been big. And I do think that the addition, subtraction. It's what, if you coach, you understand when people have agendas outside of winning games, that is the making of a bad team, right? That's the making of a bad team or a making of a dysfunctional team. And the only difference between Duke now and Duke with Jalen Johnson is they have, I would guess, all the feet in the circle, as opposed to Jalen Johnson, who, I'm not going to say he had both feet outside the circle, but probably one foot in and one foot in the tepid

waters of the NBA. And that mentality, that inability to coach him, it's the embodiment of what sucks about basketball. It's like, I have AAU teams. If I get onto a kid or if I bench a kid because he's not playing the way I want to play him, does his parent go like, well, I'm going to take him to another team where he plays more? Like, I'm not saying he's not going to play ever, but he's got to learn.

He's got to watch other kids. They've got other guys that are succeeding. These things are all very important. So I think part of it is the addition. by subtraction. I think you look at what Michigan State's done. They've tinker with their lineup, and they're playing more kind of swing forwards,

guys that can handle. I think that helps Rocket Watts, where when you put traditional bigs with him, I mean, he can be kind of a turnover machine where he tries to prove himself too much. But also, look, Tomizzo's won what feels like a million games and so is Mike Shashefsky. Did you think they ultimately wouldn't figure out the Rubik's Cube?

And it's like we so quickly, I mean, Kentucky's playing better. Yes, players do determine how good you could ultimately be. No one's ever done it without quality players. But Bill Self is the perfect example. They don't have a great team. Maybe Obaji is going to be a draft pick. I don't think anybody else,

Bryce Thompson maybe in a couple of years. He's still very young and his body physically is not mature yet. But Kansas is going to go to the. tournament. Michigan State's fighting that way. Duke is definitely trending that way. Like these guys, Calipari's team is playing better. These guys are the best of the best, not just because they can recruit, because damn, they can coach some ball. And I'm not sure we have a healthy enough respect. There were a lot of other coaches that were like, ha, look at those guys. They don't have players. Guess what? With those exact same players that are

younger, maybe not as highly tatted, they're starting to figure it out and you don't want to play them. You know why? Because those dudes have won a ton of games. They know what they're doing. before we get to some of the NBA stuff with Max Hooper, I want to just finish up on college basketball because here we are just a couple weeks removed from Selection Sunday. And I feel like it's not just because I live on the West Coast, it's because I watch all hoop. And I've noticed how undervalued West Coast basketball teams are.

Right? Like UCLA has done quite well when they played out-of-conference competition. with the exception of San Diego State. Yet neither of these programs are being viewed as top four seed programs. USC same thing, and they may have the number one pick in the upcoming NBA draft. And I think it's fascinating. Obviously, Gonzaga is and should be a one seed. And part of me wants to go back to my tweet I've put out several times,

Gozaga or the field. They're that good. But I feel like with the exception of Gonzaga, the entire West Coast, because they haven't been able to travel east to play people and put their talents on display, is being massively undervalued. I bring that up because once we get to the NCAA tournament, I'll pick every game. Don't be surprised if some West Coast teams are underseated

and proved to be very, very viable for the second weekend and maybe beyond. All right, let's get to Max Hooper. Max was an incredible shooter. He went to two different high schools, to three different colleges. He played professionally in the G League. And now he's the video assistant for, one of the video assistants for the LA Lakers. Without further ado, a proud graduate of both St. John's and Oakland University.

Here's Max Hooper. Let's welcome him in. He's Max Hooper, like the perfect name for a guy who loves Ball. Actually, I'm going to, usually I do the chronological order thing. We'll get to that, right? It's an interviewing technique that I learned when I was at ESPN, where the brain functions, better when you start at the start and at the end, right? But I do want to tell you what, what,

there was a couple of reasons I wanted to talk to you, but I was driving. I was driving the other day and it was a long drive. And I was listening to the blues travelers. And I also blues, and I never listened to blues travelers and it's like one of those, like, man, I forgot how fucking good they are, right? and it reminded me of this is this is the story i want to share with you about your dad and we'll work

all the way back to all the stuff about your dad so i i used to when i was at cbs i used to fly from orange county to new york every weekend unless i had a game for like five months and i would do the red eye so i would do a tv show and it was on at nine at night but we would tape it so i would be done at like eight fifteen and then there was a night 926 out of Orange County, which I didn't like because it was United and they had crummy planes. So I would do the American out of L.A., which was like, later it was like 1050. And so then I land to be early in the morning. And I think I tweeted out at some point like, whatever happened to John Popper or whatever.

I think that's the guy's name, right? Yeah, yeah. The lead singer of blues travel. Exactly. I don't remember what was lower. Was he better before he lost weight or I don't know what it was. So all of a sudden, I get a call. Like, it's like 6.30 in the morning.

I had landed at JFK. I got a cup of Starbucks. And the car service guy, like, I see the sign and I see this call. And it's like from a foreign number. It's like, hello? And it was your dad. And he, he just, it wasn't, it was like, how are you? Great.

Okay, let me tell you about John Popper, right? he's a fucking crazy person and you know he remember he had the gun charges i don't know but what gun charges like yeah he has like some and i was like anyway your dad was getting cancer treatment in germany and he saw it on twitter or something and he just thought of calling me and i didn't even realize at the time i i didn't know that he was the booking agent for them too like i knew about Dave Matthews band and other stuff, whatever. And we talked probably an hour and a half. He just told stories.

It was awesome. It was told stories. And he's like, you know, I have a place in Manhattan. He's like, you don't want to stay there. I was like, really? And so periodically, like, he would just call me and just we just start talking about music stuff and stuff in his life. And, you know, I'm sure when you're getting treatment overseas,

outside of communicating with family, it's probably a pretty lonely feeling. I know he's got friends everywhere. But he was just an amazing guy in that all of a sudden I had this connection with him, which we weren't super close or anything, right? Like I met you and your dad through Miles Simon. But all of a sudden, like I felt like I had this.

It was like when I was a kid, I used to love to thumb through the Encyclopedia Britannica. You go to the school library. and you'd be bored and you're thinking and you just read about shit you didn't know about. And I love music, but I don't know anything about it. And your dad would tell me about all these different artists. Anyway, so I was driving and I was thinking of blues travel and I was like, what are that Maxie's up to?

Anyway, what are you up to? Currently, what are you doing? Yeah, well, currently I'm still with the Lakers this year. I was, last year, I was fortunate enough. And like you mentioned Miles, you know, Miles Simon. He was my connection, NBA basketball, any competitive industries, about relationships. So he helped me get my foot in the door last year in the video room for the Lakers. And due to COVID, they limit the number of people who are in the gym. So I'm not in

LA currently, but I'm still doing my scouting remotely. I'm staring at a computer screen pretty much all night and breaking down games and sending my reports off. So grateful to still be in the mix. Obviously, the Lakers, you know, one of the best organizations in history. So grateful to still be in the mix and to still be advancing my career, despite the the pandemic and spite the kingdom. So when you do the scouting, when you do the video stuff, do you guys self-scout or are you doing posting teams? You're doing upcoming

opponents. You're doing college. Preparing for upcoming opponents. So, you know, I know more about the 29 other teams than I do about the Lakers is the joke that I tell people. By the way, I know all these answers just, you know, I do think it's more for people on the pot. And I had a

buddy. You got to let them know. I had a buddy who was in Phoenix last year. It said the exact same thing. Like, I can't tell you anything about art. Don't ask. Like, whatever you have. Yeah.

Here's a, here's a question. Again, I want to get into your story because it's a really good thing. How different is what everyone runs? I think there's a prevailing thought that everybody runs the same shit.

Some people have better players. I don't share that, but I also don't study the tape of 29 other teams. How similar is what everyone does? I would say it depends on what level of nuance you want to get to. Because I think the building blocks are very similar because the NBA is a quick pace game, you know, where things are happening in 24 seconds. You know, your teams are not, not many teams are playing at a methodical pace where they're massaging their way into offense.

Things happen quickly. So the quick hitters, they're all very similar. But then a lot of the, as it gets more nuanced, it's more personnel based. You know, if you have a dominant big man and another team doesn't, they're not going to run post-up actions that that team was a post-up guy. would run. And, you know, if you have a great isolation guard, then, you know, just, it depends on what level of, you know, detail you want to get to. But on the, as a framework, a lot of teams are running very similar stuff. And it's more the stuff that happens in the flow of the game,

rather than really, um, coordinate a half court sets if you move up. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, obviously everybody's started running, you know, the spread ball screen stuff, especially now with the use of what I call the entire floor. And where, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the year's the, the, the, the, the end, the baseline side. It was always coming to the middle. Like, for my, the entirety of my basketball career, it was to the middle, right? You want to get it to the middle, and then you want to kick to the opposite side. Well, then we started driving to the middle and throw into the backside right behind us, lifting. Now it's, hey, let's, we can get to the, we can use that

whole side and then hit to the other side, right? That, that to me is kind of the evolution of the sport and how things are changing. What's unique, though, is that you work for a conversation that you guys do run some of that stuff, but because it's LeBron and he's back different era, and because it's kind of a walking mismatch, right? There's a lot of old school NBA to what you guys do in that it's just really as simple as, hey, let's get somebody who's little on LeBron and then it gets downhill and there's nothing you can do, right? Definitely.

You're kind of still one of the few ISO dominant teams in the league and it's more because of like you said, personnel based, correct? Yeah. And I think, I think, yeah, like that's a luxury. You know, other teams, they have to run more action because you don't have a guy who can just go one-on-one. But then, you know, let's say we run action and don't get what we want. Well, there's eight seconds on the shot clock. Give the ball to LeBron and then let him use his intelligence. And then also there is scheme in that, you know, and in terms of how you space on the ISO's, when you cut,

the timing of when you cut, if they're screening on the weak side. Because when offense gets stagnated, it's just tough to get things going. So you want to keep that flow even when you're doing things. And even with Davis, you know, when Davis is healthy, he's a he's a great post-up threat, too. We're going to play through him as well. And like I said, that's playing to our strengths. So it is a kind of a 1990s, early 2000s style of play. But, you know, when you have the personnel to do it and then the surrounding shooters around you and cutters, then it's super, it ends up being super effective. All right.

Most impressive guy you've seen on tape this year. We just prepared for Washington. I mean, Bradley Beale's been on a whole other level, you know. And I think maybe he doesn't get the credit he deserves. just because he's on the wizards who have been okay these past few years and haven't been made deep playoff runs. But that dude can just score the ball at an extremely high level.

And he's one of those finishes late in the game against you guys where he lost the ball. And he got it back and then he just throws it in. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show,

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English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode. where we've discussed correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

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Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Like, I don't even know, like, so many guys get discombobulated when they lose the ball, that they lose their concentration and they seek out the ball instead. But he just kind of keeps playing and play through it. He's unbelievable. And I was just going to say that he's a dude. Like, he's, I think he's scored like over 30, like something crazy, like 20 of the last 23 games or something like that. There was one game.

He was one for 15 at seven points. His lowest output of the year. Next game he came back. monster game. So he's a dude who's just unfazed. He just keeps coming at you. And pretty much just does what he does. They're going to throw double teams at him. They're going to do different things to him. But he's just going to keep going. And I mean, scoring over 30 on average in the NBA is unheard of. It's absolutely obscene.

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Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discover the Forest. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Obviously, Luca, that team defensively has struggled. Yesterday he hit two stepbacks. And I mean, his stepback is so nice. And he's like one of those guys that like, is he fat or is he pick? I can't tell.

Is he fast? Yeah. When you watch Luca on tape, what are the notes you send your guys? Change of pace, you know, because he doesn't. have the supreme burst that you know a you know uh russell westbrook or a prime john wall has but the guy is never phased he's always in control um difficult shopmaker you know stepbacks from deep mid range fakes basically he has it all in the tool bag and then on top of that he's not a guy who plays with blinders on he's he's a passer and i call him um a 360 passer so like a lot of guys can

they can pass in their you know the 90 degrees in front of them that way window. But LeBron and the Lucas, they have 360 vision. So they can, if there's a guy who's open behind this shoulder, they're going to find them and know how to deliver that pass rather than just, you know, what's in front of them and just the simple play. And they, you know, Lucas vision is incredible. Really, really, I can't even imagine playing with him. What it, what it's like, just get to the right spot. The ball is going to find you. You know, just put yourself in that spot. No, that's nice to tell guys all the time. It's just like, you get there and it's okay. If you're open and you don't get there. You don't get

you can get mad. It's okay. I'll get to eventually, you know. Just put your hands right here. The ball will find it. The ball will find you. Did Jamal Murray, like, what he did in the bubble, and we've seen some of it here recently. But it felt like whatever happened in the bubble,

like I did not know he had that in him. Like there were moments of it, but the, it's like you talk about Brad Beale. The consistency of it, what was your reaction to seeing Jamal Murray kind of take it to that different level in the public last year. Putting up incredible numbers and similar. It's going to be similar things to deal just relentless, you know, just unfazed. You know, if something doesn't go right, if he makes a turn over, he just coming right back at you.

And that's how most of the best players are. But that bubble was kind of like the bubble because it was so unique and it was short-lived. It was like defining moments for people. You know, you think about Jamal Murray. Obviously, the Lakers making big statements. Even the sun's going eight and no, they ultimately, I don't. They didn't make the playoffs, but, you know, making a run like that, like Murray came out. He made a heck of a statement.

And, I mean, he's been a great player. And now I think he's just going to continue to, you know, take it to a higher, higher level. What impressed me about LeBron in the bubble last year, at times this year, it's hard. The minister's been hard just because now you've got injuries, he's got to carry him, right? So the defense isn't as good. But what I've noticed, and again, you break down the film. and I know you know more about other teams. But what I've noticed is he's smarter in that.

He doesn't guard the ball nearly as much as he used to. I don't want any of that smoke, right? But he's back there quarterback in center field. And all of those other guys' levels of intensity on defense were so raised. It was like, this is our identity. When you prepare, like, so for people who in the industry, they know what you do. but when you pour over all the synergy, all the different games, you provide notes.

What's that like to work with a group and give, and then all of a sudden you see the MVP, the best player in the league execute what you advise them on. Like, hey, this shit actually works if the best player, like the whole thing is about the best player buying it, right? You are who your best player is. And when he buys in, what's that like to see him execute the defensive game plan? Right.

Well, I mean, just to touch on that, It's like, I think just to touch on the role in general, like as a former player, former college player briefly played in the G league, you know, I, you think you know the game and you think you, you know, have an IQ and an understanding. But when it becomes your job and you're spending, you know, probably between 10 and 20 hours on each team, like so the way the process works is we watch five games, the five games leading up to our game on each team, you know. I did the same thing by the way.

I advise people you do the exact same thing. Watch the last five years. learn the trends, you learn, you know, who's playing well. Sometimes there's, there's a lineup changes. Like, for example, we have Portland coming up. I've been scouting Portland. C.J. McCollum hasn't been in the lineup. So there's going to be some different things. You know, different guys are going to be playing more minutes. But it's, there's a, you just are kind of noting trends, noting what's going on and giving your coaching staff the information they need to make decisions on, okay, this is what's happening. This is the information. How are we going to game plan? How are we

to strategize what what defensive scheme should we use how have other teams guard them and has it worked has it not worked and then and on the other flip side how do we attack them what what are they weak defensively how can we exploit that so it's basically just having a detailed approach and giving them answers to the test and they they decide how to implement that and and just just a quick quick you know story on being around lebron when i was around lebron in person last year yeah and his level of communication and intensity and basketball IQ, like in practice or shootarounds and walkthroughs just pretty much in terms of knowing what's going on. It was just like it was basically like a savant, you know, like he just pretty much, like

you said, it was orchestrating. And what you see in the game, it was only heightened in practice when we would scrimmage in practice and he would really bring it and be locked in. He was, it was on another level, just crazy communication, anticipation, knowing exactly what's going to happen on the court. long before he even does. Okay, so give me the scanning on on Damien Lillard. Like it used to be

not a great finishing package, right? Yeah. And then you could go at him some defensively. He seems like he's finishing better because it feels like it's something like everybody, we fall in love with the deep threes, right? And he obviously, working with Phil. He's developed a series of shots in which, like I actually think his,

Luca and his like he does that side step which is and he does it quick and it's so awkward and yet so good like Mike I sent you that video of my son hitting a game winner right it's one of those like it was sweet but it's one of those like I've been working with him like hey dude this stuff works you got a bigger dude on you just one step to the side and up and go and it's different than how we were taught in terms of shooting a step back and whatever what's the what do they when when you try and break down Damien Lillard, what are the keys to try and slow him down? You're not going to stop.

Yeah, I mean, the guy is a relentless score, but I think to your point, I think if my advanced stats are correct, he's shooting a career high at the rim this year. So he is finishing at a higher level than he ever has been. And the deep three, I mean, the four-pointers, as we call them, you know, beyond 30 feet, he's pulling up off the dribble with like their layups. You know, I think only the only guys that really come to mind

to consistently do that are Steph and Tray Young and Lillard. So that's something that is unique. So your point of pickup has to be higher. You can't pick them up with your heels on the three point line because that's, that thing is going up. And he killed us in the first game. I think seven threes, I forget his point total, but really came at us. So for us, it's about, you know, making him, like you said, you're not going to shut the guy

down. I mean, he's, he's, you know, all-star starter. He's relentless, you know, he's that. Not an all-star starter. I mean, the start a star. Reserve, excuse me. I don't know. I'm just not messing with you. Like, these guys, I don't want to play the all-star game, but I want to be a starter.

Yeah. It's always, you always want a little more, you know? I got it. I mean, look, I'm, I'm guilty of it. We all are as competitive people, and I do understand it. You want to be recognized as elite. Yeah. You know, but it's fascinating to me on these guys.

It's like, at some point you're like, hey, I'm in the All-Star games for good, you know? Yeah. It's like the Seinfeld with McDonald's, you know, billions and billions. At some point, you just go, McDonald's. We're doing pretty well, right? We served a lot of them. Yeah. And then, I guess one last thing to note about Dame that makes him unique is he loves to

pull up off the dribble right when you're on him and try to draw the foul. So for me, I think it's my job to highlight things that make a guy unique. You know, like, if a guy's scoring out of pick and roll, it's not just, just all right, what does he do? Like, everyone scores out of pick and roll. You know, like what does he do that's specific? Like you said, the sidestep is something to note, and it's a short, quick side step. It's not, like how I was taught on pull-ups and separation, cover as much ground as possible.

I'm going to cover as much ground as I can, but I'm going to do it slowly. So let me just cover a tiny bit of ground, but do it in a split second. Then I'm going to get my shout off. So that's what he does. He pulls up off the dribble looking to draw the foul, so the lean-in, something to be aware of. And then finishing at a career high level. at the rim. So, you know, challenge him at the rim. And you can't foul him because he shoots 90 plus from the free throw line. So tough cover. Yeah, have fun. Well, it's one of the things that it's like,

you know, I've told, when I've done the draft stuff, it's like you can, and now it's really hard to hide anybody defensively, right? I mean, just the way in which basketball has evolved. It's not just about mismatches. You know, they'll move you around, slide a hand, then all of a sudden, And boom, they put you in a ball. She's like, whoa, wait a second. How'd they get that? Like, yeah, that was the whole design was to get your worst defender on their best player. It's hard to hide anyone.

But I think it's much harder to hide a guard. 100%. Foods are in, are starting in the NBA for a reason. They are, you know. Imagine being a rookie guard. Imagine being a rookie guard. You're like, okay, tonight of guard, staff. Tomorrow night I guard, a guard, Damien, then maybe some Donovan Mitchell.

Oh, there you got Jamal Murray. Like, hey, have fun. You have to be, and if you have a bad night, you better get ready for the next night. Like, it's crazy. You were a great shooter. Great shooter. When you watch the tapes,

who's the best shooter, just in terms of shooter. Like, what I like about staff is, everybody says it's the best shooter ever. I don't think enough people contextualize it. this is my personal opinion you've watched more on tape um some guys can go right some guys can go left some guys are catching shoot like sedale three used to play for the lakers when i was a kid but in between before they got coby and they had for after magic i actually liked those teams nick fan exel

and blottie was still there right and sedale three if he dribbled the ball with his left hand it was going in any other way it probably wasn't going right tony parker uh similarly always i think always pounds at once with his left hand before he, when he do that, he was going in most times, right? Steph, I feel like he can go either way and catch and shoot. But in terms of best shooter, you've seen breaking down tape, who would be the one that you would say?

I mean, Steph is the easy answer, obviously, because he's so versatile. And like, like you said, it doesn't matter, catch a shoot, doesn't matter deep, doesn't matter off balance, left, right, pretty much doesn't matter. I mean, he might shoot slightly. better going right than left, but it's really

probably not much of a difference. But, I mean, I'll probably take two guys if that's okay. This season, Duncan Robbins and Joe Harris. I mean, I just saw Joe Harris's shot shirt, and I believe he shoots 70% from the left corner three.

So that's sickening. You know what I mean? Like, and he shoots 62% or 60-something% at the rim. So he shoots a corner three better than he does layups. And Here's what's amazing about that So I have

We have a doctor dish In my house Right So You know like you're trying to Encourage your kids Like hey look You know

Best shoot in the world They shoot 50% From a kid At best 50% from the kid He's 70% from a corner three In games Imagine an Olympics

Imagine an Olympics where Doping is not only legal But encouraged It's the enhanced games Some call it grotes Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. Yep, that's me. Clever Taylor the 4th.

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What the hell does George Bush got to do a little camp? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite things. Therapist, Care Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field

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search Learn the Hardway and listen now. That's not, like, these things. all these dudes you go into an empty gym and it's whack-whap, they're shooting 80 and 90, right? Like crazy numbers. 70% in games is, it's ridiculous. There's another R word we don't use anymore.

That's what it is. Like it's just so mind-blowingly amazing. With NBA players guarding you, getting paid millions and millions and millions of, your job is to stop this guy from doing this and he's still doing it, you know? And his role has changed a bit, you know, with the new context. with their team, his shots are coming differently. Michigan didn't start him.

And they think that's why they went to the final four because they were so good defensively. 100%, you know? But I mean, I have no regrets with my career. You know, I gave it everything I had, so I definitely have no regrets. None? None. I mean, I did everything I could in my power, you know.

So certain things just work out the way they're supposed to work out. but you best believe as a part of, when I was in person, at least a part of my coaching role, you know, sometimes it was my job to hop in scout team, you know? So we're preparing for the rockets. I got the green light to go out there and let it fly. So that was fun. But like Miles had me as PJ Tucker and Daniel House said,

any time you catch it, just fire it. So I got to do that. And, you know, obviously playing in the NBA was my dream. But now, you know, being a coach, like my passion has shifted. to being the best coach I can. But if I can add value doing that and I still have that skill, then I'm happy to do it and happy to contribute. So I had a chance to work out with Duncan Robinson in 2016.

It was following his sophomore year, so really hadn't established himself at the level he's been at. And we did have some pretty epic shooting battles, so that was fun. And he, I mean, he grew since then. I mean, I think he's all of 6'8 now. And now he's really figured out how to make it work, defensively, while also he knows all the tricks of the trade, how to get his shot off,

throw the ball out there, misdirection, change direction, shot fakes. He's a, it's a work of art to watch him as a shooter. Okay, so you, the story I wrote a long time ago was you fell in love with basketball. Was it a Salt Lake Hotel Room and the Jazz Run? Yeah, that sounds about, my dad and I were in a skiing trip. So somewhere in Utah, probably somewhere in Utah. Park City. Something, yeah, I would imagine so.

And this is when the jazz, Carl Malone, John Stockton, the second greatest team in the world, or second greatest team in the world, I suppose at the time, they had a blowout late at night. And I said, man, I had never watched a basketball game before. I said, this is the greatest team ever, right? Like, who could be better? They just won by 50 points. And, you know, whatever it was, four, five, six-year-old max, that was my reality right there. So that's where the love of the NBA, I suppose, was born. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts,

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Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Dipers and toys are everywhere. Ooh! But mom is...

has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off. Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite.

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Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Okay, so how did you foster that? You're in Carmel, California, which, you know, it's beautiful. I mean, it's incredible area, right? These cypress trees, a beautiful little downtown. You grew up playing basketball where? Was there like, I know we'll get to high school.

a second, but as a little kid, where'd you? There was the YMCA League. But I mean, in that area, you know, the sports as a whole aren't that strong. So, I mean, I was, I was, early I was dominating the YMCA League or the rec center league. But then once I got to getting closer to high school, late in middle school, I started doing AAU up in the Bay Area. That's where more competition was. So getting involved in that. But for me, it started in the backyard, just shooting and shooting and shooting and shooting and shooting on my own. You know, my dad didn't play. My mom didn't have it.

Last name Hooper, but no one in my family played basketball. And I didn't really have buddies at school who played. So it was really just me watching NBA games and then going outside and just shoot in, shooting, shooting, shooting. You're basically like a Euro. That's basically that's how Euros grew up, right? They grew up. Yeah.

They just grew up shoot. How did you learn to shoot the basketball? Like, because your shot was pure. Was it always that way? Or did you learn? Did somebody teach you? Did you go to camp? Like, how did you learn the proper way?

Because your shot is pretty much fundamentally perfection. Yeah. For me, it was kind of self-taught. I worked with some trainers, but it wasn't so much on shooting form. I was kind of the kid. Early on, I had a bit of a funky shot, and people would, you know, I was making them. So coaches wouldn't really touch it. It wouldn't really mess.

Monkey shot me, what? A lot of the left hand involved. so the conflict in it and a bit of like a chest release rather than, you know, up more towards the eyebrow. So my thing was, so Miles can attest this. We're in fourth grade, first ever NJB championship at Fullerton College. We're always to work dudes out, right? Of course.

And I beat Miles. They had at half time of the fourth grade championship, me, our team against Miles too. We had a three-point shooting contest and I beat him. and I used to shoot the ball and I would I would thumb it but it would like tap the ball and so I had a little bit of Saturn rotation you know and I think Anthony Davis actually has that too right he's got a little bit that that Saturn rotation last side's been yeah yeah but I was was but it went in and then you know when I got it wasn't until high school when I fixed it right but it was I took the thumb of it so that's what where I am kind of kind of with my son where he, for 11 and for a little 11 year old, he shoots it pretty well left hand. He gets his thumb a little bit into it. But I do think that, you know, it's about we'll eventually get it there, get it where his hands behind the ball. He's not strong enough yet, but it's pretty good, pretty well one-handed. It gets there. But it is interesting on how,

you know, Ray Allen would, he'd occasionally get that thumb into it, you know. Reggie Miller. Like, watch how he shoots. Like, he actually used two fingers, right? Yeah. It's followed through actually finishes like this. Yes. And you're like, what? Like one of the greatest shooters ever. That doesn't make any sense. Clay and Steph are as pure as the driven snow. Right. Like that's like, and that's how that's how there's. So you get into like middle school and how did the conversation take place to your dad like, hey, I want to go and play it. I want to go play it like a high school, not in Carmel. Yeah. I think I think the writing was always on the wall. Like, Because I always had lofty goals with basketball.

Like, I mean, here I am today. I'm working with the lake. There's like, I always knew basketball was what I wanted to do. And I think my dad, like, whether we had a direct conversation or not about it, it was just like playing in Carmel was, it just wasn't going to challenge me appropriately. And I think, you know, you can't, you know, determine what your kids pursue. But if, you know, whatever your kids pursue, you want to help them and give them whatever tools you can.

And for me, it was just like, I just needed, I was the big fish in a little pond. And so I just needed to find a bit bigger, bigger pond. And so, I mean, obviously my family made a ton of sacrifices, and I'm always grateful for that. And both my parents and my sister made a ton of sacrifices for me to be able to try to pursue higher levels of the game and challenge myself more and more and more. And basically maximize myself at every step I could because staying in it, like, I think the Monterey County area puts out one D1 player probably every five years. or so. And then, you know, I went to even San Jose was a step up. Like the league I played in

San Jose pretty much each team had at least zero to two division one players. And then modern day, obviously another step up and then end up at Brewster Academy playing with three NBA players on my team. So it was like it was always, you know, seeking out higher levels of competition just to bring the best out of myself. And for my dad, he was just willing and ready at every step of it. You know, not all kids have that. And now I look back and I have a lot more perspective and just super, super grateful that he was able to afford me the opportunities that he did. Yeah, it's a hard thing. It's a hard thing to kid because my dad kind of the same thing where he would do anything.

I need to take you any workout. My dad is like, it's interesting. We lost a team from Bakersfield. And we had practice last night. And my son, and we lost a team. him like two weeks ago, weeks ago. And my son was,

he's like, how far is Bakersfield? He put it in the maps. He's like, man, they drove two hours and 45 minutes to play in Toronto.

I was like, how about this one? When I was in high school, J.R. Henderson was our AAU team. J.R., of course, just got them playing in Japan. Now he's girls,

a women's coach, professional women's coach in Japan. And he used to come to practice. My name was like, I can't play him with, unless he comes to practice. You know, it's really interesting to me that my dad used to drive like an hour and a half and meet his dad an hour away.

And his dad would drive like an hour so they could drop JR off, taking to practice and drive him back. And his dad would, I don't like wait there or whatever. And just the sacrifice that dads make. And I think what happens is like my only desire as a dad is to give him every opportunity can. But also for him to just like at some point go like, hey man, thanks you know yeah and and and I don't know if I did that enough to my dad but I think he does he's he has

pretty good perspective as a kid and you have great perspective so for people who don't know so your dad was the booking agent for Dave Matthews band right but it was it's more than that like he didn't just like have them hand delivered to him he discovered them at like a college bar right yeah I mean he was, I mean, it was 1994, I believe, or 93, 94, he was a young agent, you know, just like a young hustler in basketball, a young hustler in broadcasting, a young hustler in anything. You know, you got to go make it happen if you want to make it happen. And it's not just going to, it's not just going to fall in your lap. So there had been some buzz, you know, the Dave Matthews band, but like, you know, still playing bars and clubs at colleges. And, you know, they hadn't established themselves or anything.

So it's kind of like sort of the equivalent of, you know, an agent, you know, building or I guess that's like illegal. But because basketball has so many rules. But, you know, it's the agent equivalent of finding a kid in seventh grade before anyone knows they're going to be a stud. And, you know. So what did he tell you about it? What did he tell you about it? I mean, I was two at the time. I know, but he's told the story because he told me this story.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, that story. Yeah. So my mom, we were living in California, but we were in New York over the, over the, New Year's, I think, or holidays. And he went to Winston-Salem, North Carolina, saw Dave Matthews band at a bar called Ziggy's at Wake Forest,

and was like, basically called my mom and was like, I think it was New Year's, like, you know what, I need to stay here one more night. This band has a chance to change our life. You know, this band is incredible, and they're going to do huge things. And this was before they had done anything, and now we're here almost 30 years later. And, like, Dave Matthews is still, obviously,

the pandemic put a hitch in it, but still rolling just as strong as ever in terms of touring and had their career has been one of the greatest, I would say, of modern music. How were they to you? Whenever my dad would bring me to the concerts, it was always, well, like for anyone who knew my dad, he liked to talk, so he would always talk about myself, my sister, you know. So they always knew me before, knew about what was going on with me before I even had spoken with them. But the band, the band was always great.

Dave, you know, if I'd see him, we'll always have a brief conversation, you know, always great people. And then Carter Beaufort, the drummer, really, really loves to chat if you catch them at a good time. So, you know, nothing but good things to say about those guys. Do they, um, Darius Rucker is a good friend of mine. So they take a Jim Beam shop before they go out on stage. It's like their tradition. It was, what's a day, Matthews band tradition before they go out?

I'm not sure I'm close enough in the inner surf. I don't know. I don't know what it would be. Like when I would go to the shows, I would be with my dad, but he would be working, you know, so he'd always be busy. And the, I would say Dave Matthew, they're pretty private. They're private guys. So before the shows, they're all just kind of in their tour buses and just, you know, laying low. And then they come out and rock the world and they come out on stage.

So hopefully we can get back to that. This is making me think about concerts. Hopefully we can get back. I know. Okay. So first concert you're going to go to is show. And you don't have to say Dave Matthews, Ben. It's okay.

You've been to a million. Yeah. I mean, well, see, now my fiancé, she loves Dave Matthews. So it'd probably be Dave or scheduling is so crazy. So whatever, at this point, I would say I'm not picking because I want to get out to a concert. Obviously, safely, do it safely, but I want to get out. So Dave would be great. Okay.

Coolest venue you've been to watch a concert. Yeah, well, something that's super, super cool. The Gorge is an incredible venue in kind of the middle of nowhere in Washington State. But because my dad was in the music industry for so long, and the same with basketball industry. Everyone gets to know everyone. And I think he was really widely respected by a lot of different people. And after he passed, Dave Matthews plays the Gorge pretty much every Labor Day.

they named a viewpoint at the gorge, the chip pooper view. And my sister and I, this was 2000, yeah, Labor Day 2016, we unveiled like this plaque of a photo, excuse me, an engraving of my dad. And because a lot of people didn't know that my dad was a photographer, a really fine art photographer. And so there's a picture of him with his fancy view camera looking out on the view, and it's pretty cool. So, cool as many by far. Okay. Better than Red Rocks.

I've never been to either. I haven't been to Red Rock. So it looks incredible and it's on my list, but can't include it because I haven't been. Okay. Hollywood Bowls, Hollywood Bowl is like, is really cool. I mean, I understand it's not as aesthetically and, you know, whatever, but Hollywood Bowl is pretty dope. Santa Barbara Bowl also very cool. Okay, so you're at a small Christian school in San Jose, and you decide I'm going to go to

Modder Day. So your dad's like, all right, gets a place in Irvine. You go to Monterey. You show up at Monterey. You're a junior in high school. And I only went there one year, senior year. Senior year in high school. He was on your team.

The top players were Tyler Lamb, Keala King, Gary Franklin, and Kate and Reinhart, all high-level, you know, D-1 players, Pac-12, or, or equivalent levels. Now, did you talk to them before you showed up? Or you just like, and here? Briefly, I knew them from playing on the AAU circuit a little bit, but I didn't know those guys well. And Kiala King also transferred in.

So we kind of had to get chemistry put together quickly because it was similar to AAU, you know, where you slap a team together and you guys got to figure it out rather than coming up, you know, through 9th, 10th, 11th, like all the way playing through with the same guys in a more traditional sense. What was that like to play Gary of Knight's one more games than anybody in the history of California basketball? You're playing with all these dudes. And now you're playing these like made-up games and everybody's biggest game.

What was that like? It was like to that point, it was like the highest level I had played at. A, you was different. But high school, I feel like there's so much more pride in winning and, you know, protecting the modern day tradition and stuff like that. And, you know, when you walk in the modern day gym, there's championship, championship, championship banners, you know, everywhere and, you know, you want to do your part and creating your legacy. And I only had one year to create my legacy there. So I wanted to, you know, leave, leave a mark and also just develop as a player, you know, every day you're, that was the best, to that point, that was

the best group of players I got to practice with collectively on a day-in-day-out basis. And I love, I love playing more than anything, you know, just competing. So it was fun to just compete with those guys every day. And like you said, moderate age tradition, you come in with a target on your back. So every game, even if it was a team that wasn't that talented, they're bringing everything they got at you. And we didn't get our state championship.

You know, we lost in the semifinals, but I believe 32 and 2 had a great season and had a lot of fun doing it. You know, it was a really, you try to pursue these goals and do everything you can, but you want to look back to have fun memories on, you know,

I'm glad I had that experience. I'm grateful for that experience. What led you go to Brewster? I think Bruce's Academy, like, the reason why I wanted to do a fifth year was I was a bit of a late bloomer. You know, I was skinny. I mean, I was always skinny throughout my career, you know, but definitely a late bloomer. And I had grown, not that I was like Anthony Davis had grown to 611, but, you know, I had grown like three inches between my sophomore and senior year. So I was still growing into my body and still needed to do some physical maturing.

and I had some options to go to college, but I felt like going and doing an extra year to just prepare more would have been beneficial. And Jason Smith, similar to Gary Knight, what he's done hasn't done in quite as long, a durable program at Brewster. And I weighed a couple options and felt like being at Brewster was the best fit, best challenge,

best opportunity for me to keep pursuing my goals of playing at the highest level I could in college and then playing beyond. Okay, so who was, who was the, Is that Bruce, do you hear there? Well, the guys who people might remember, Jhkar-Sampson, currently on the Pacers, Mitch McGarry, first-draffick to the Thunder. Deontay Burton played on the Thunder.

So those three NBA players and then other guys who played pretty much all high-level guys. Nadir Tharp, who played at Kansas. Marcus Kennedy, who played at Villanova and SMU. Eli Carter, who played at Florida and B.C. Duran Johnson, who played at Pittsburgh. a ton of talent. I mean, what was that? Where is that?

That's in New Hampshire, right? Bro, New Hampshire. Yeah. What was that like? I can point it on a map finally. What was that like? I mean, kind of like I said earlier, you know, going to Mater Day was the highest level I had played at then.

Like, a good bruce's story is I showed up the first day we had orientation. and it's funny because you're at a school. You have to wear coat and tie every day. I don't think they go anymore, but you have to wear coat and tie. So we got all these tall basketball studs at a tiny boarding school in New Hampshire and then a bunch of just other normal students,

you know, because there was a lot of talent on that roster and it was, that was just every day you got to compete because otherwise it's just like you're just left behind, you know. And I think that type of environment is what raises kids, Now that I've, you know, now that I'm, you know, I have more perspective on it. Like, I've seen kids who go into that environment and some of them fold because they don't have that competition. They don't have that fire within to bring it every day. And the ones who rise to the occasion and thrive in those situations are the ones who, you know, have long-term success, typically.

Okay. So why did you go to Harvard? At that time, an opportunity to attend Harvard. tremendous honor, opportunity to be a part of a basketball program that was on the up and up, trending upwards. It was just something I didn't feel like I could turn down. It felt like at the time I trusted myself was the best opportunity.

And, you know, I'm able to say I got into Harvard. You know, I have that on my resume. And again, grateful for all my experiences, you know, because that was a unique one for sure. What was it? Give me one Harvard story. like that you haven't told people about just going to school at Harvard. Oh, yeah, like just the type of people you're around, you know,

like going from Brewster Academy or modern day, you know, just basketball, some of the basketball players aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, you know, but then you show up and you're in a Harvard class and like, I don't even remember what they asked, but like someone asked a question, I didn't even understand the question, you know, like the person asked, much less the answer that he was going to get. And it was like one of my sociology classes or something like that. Just being around excellence in everything academically. And then basketball was trending upwards.

You know, it was the first time. The team that I played on was the first time that Harvard made the tournament. Harvard at the time, that was the beginning of a run of dominating the Ivy League. So it was a, it was a part of being, it was about being a part of greatness in terms of on the court and off the court. One thing you take away from playing for Tommy after. His organization, like super, practice is always super organized, regimented. Everything was very, it was like my first exposure to a high level, like, coach who was super tied together and who was, Because when you go from high school to college, there's the scouting reports.

There's just different, you know, organized practice plan, just different. It was the highest level of organization I had been around in professionalism as a coach. And, I mean, there's a reason why he's had success. I don't even know how many years he's been there, probably 10 plus now. And he's been super super successful. So it was my first time being exposed to that. I learned a lot from that too. Okay, so you decide to leave.

So you tell your parents, you know, I'm chasing this basketball dream. I want to leave. Like you're at the greatest academic school in the United States, maybe the best in the world. You say, I want to go to St. John's because Chakar Samson's there. And I know some guys, and they need a shooter, right? Yeah. How'd that conversation go at home?

As always, my dad was 100% behind me. You know, he wanted me to pursue my basketball dream as best I could. And I think he always knew that, like, I would end up in a role that I'm in now, you know, that I would be in coaching. basketball was my dream and my passion. And I wish I could have been able to, you know, feel comfortable about getting, like, staying at Harvard, just weather that storm and, you know, but I think at the time you make

decisions, you trust yourself and you live with the results. And so I was going to go for it. I was going to pursue it as best I could. I was going to shoot for the stars and give it everything I had. So going to St. John's, it was just, I felt like I could compete at that level. I felt like I filled a need that that team needed. And, you know, I took on that challenge, spent two years there and pretty much gave it everything I had and left it all out there. And if I wasn't going to be good enough, you know, I was just going to have to live with that.

You mentioned regimented. Lab runs a little different, little different ship in comparison to Tommy. What is that like, though, to go from? I'm a guy, you know, Tommy's putting up, everything to laugh, which is, you know, and that's, that's, he's, he's, he's much more relaxed. And then the type of guys you're around are very, very different, right? It's much more like Brewster than it is like, like, like Harvard. What was that change like? Yeah, I mean, it was, I feel like I love that environment because those practices, it was, we would do, we would do some drills, some breakdown drills, but it was really just a war every day.

It was just kind of, you know, roll the balls out. Let's hoop. Let's scrimmage. Three on three, two on two. And then let's put in a couple of actions and let's just run it up and down. So those, I mean, that was competing with guys like Jekar Samson, Dom Pointer, DeAngelo Harrison, Phil Green. A lot of guys who still play, who still play professionally. Jekar Samson's still in the NBA.

Dom Pointer, knocking on the NBA. I think you got a 10-day last year knocking on the NBA door. Harrison playing overseas. Phil Green still plays overseas. I mean, high-level athletes and just, that was just about, it was a bloodbath pretty much every day in practice. Like, if you didn't bring it there, you were going to get embarrassed because extremely athletic, aggressive players who needed to refine their skill sets, but had the raw

athleticism and played hard and played with intensity every day, again, it was a new environment for me, similar to Brewster Academy. But when you're in college, you know, all hell breaks loose a little. bit. You know, high school is a little bit more safer environment. You know, college is a little more cutthroat. So. Better to go to school in New York or Boston? Well, both are great city. I live in Boston now, so I love Boston. But both schools are great. The only problem about St. John's you're still a little isolated from to Manhattan. Obviously, it would be cool to be in Manhattan, but you only end up going there so often because you're so busy as a student athlete. But both

are great. Harvard's a little closer to Boston, so I'll say Boston. Okay, two years. And then you're like, all right, now I got my degree. Now I want to go to. And you went to Oakland, and they had actually recruited you originally at a Brewster at Travis Bader at the time, right? So what was it like to go from, you barely, he didn't really play at Harvard. You play some at St. John's. So now like kind of a guy at Oakland. How long did it take for you to kind of get your sea legs to feel like, okay, I'm up because you'd practiced against all these guys, but playing in games is completely different. What was that first year like? The first year was up and down. And, you know, I put, I had huge expectations for myself because I was like, man,

I'm finally going to get the opportunity. You know, I'm finally playing with a coach who kind of fosters what I do and encourages me to do what I do. And it was up and down a bit disappointed, just because it was up and down and couldn't quite get my footing. I'd have a great game and then, you know, disappear for a couple games. So it was, that was part of my growth as a player, you know, figuring it out. And every year up until Harvard, I had played basketball. You know, I was part of the rotation. I always played.

You know, playing time was never really a thought. You know, modern day, I started every game. High school I started every game. Brewster came off the bench but played and, you know, played a lot of minutes in every game. Harvard, all of a sudden, no minute. minutes. So I think a lot of kids go through that too when they, you know, early in their career, you know, you kind of unless you're, number one, if you're one and done or if you're playing on a horrible team, that's pretty much the only way freshmen play typically in college.

And it was a freshman and sophomore. So it was an adjustment for me. But then I was thrown into the fire and kind of learn trial by air. And then finally, like after that junior year, I felt like I was, you know, pretty much ready to roll for my senior year. Okay. So, um, you had this unbelievable, uh, stat, right, of when you played, of not taking two point shots, right? You took, uh, let's see here. You didn't take one your senior year, not one. Well, you shot 26 free throws.

You act like that you got all these, you got clipped at all you get, but you made 25. Do you remember the free throw that you missed? It was early. I was mad, man. I got fouled on a three, and I made two of three. I think I just, I should have made them all, you know? Avaline Christian. Yeah. Yeah. Abilene Christian. That's the Miss Frito. Abilene Christian in a tournament early year. Man. You did, like, when you're in Oakland, you guys used to play everybody, right? Like, I remember you played, I'm looking now. You played Michigan State in Washington, Virginia. was there a moment where you're like, okay, now I made it.

Like you're in Big East, you play big boys, whatever, but now you're actually playing big minutes, 25, 26 minutes game. Was it different when you played against Michigan State, having been through all your travels? Yeah, it was, it was like my, once I got to my senior year, and, you know, we haven't even touched on it, but like my dad was sick, you know, it was like,

this is what I had worked for. Like, I just wanted to play. And then I'm at Oakland University, the coaches screaming at players to get me the ball, you know, like the system, it was set up for me to be, to be successful as a shooter. And, I mean, recruiting tactics, like, if you, if you're not getting recruited to the highest level of college and you're a three-point shooter, like, I don't know why you wouldn't consider Oakland, you know what I mean? It's what he does. He wants his shooters to get shots. The offense is designed for his shooters to get, it's a setup.

You know what I mean? It's a setup if you're a shooter. Like, it doesn't, it's not by accident that Travis Bader shot 363s. It's not by accident that I shot 2506. It's not by accident that Kendrick Nunn average 12, three-point attempts. Like, it's design. And so, I mean, for me, it was what I had work for, and it was like the perfect marriage, a coach who believed in what I did.

I had Kay Felder on my team, kid who was trying to not only lead the country in scoring, but lead the country in assists too. So he's trying to get people involved. I had Jalen Hayes with me, who was an all-league big man, setting me great screens. And it was just kind of like basically a setup for me to be the best shooter I could be. But not just because it was a cool thing. to do, but because that would help us win games. It's the thing of being a fit, right?

Like, it's got to be a fit. And if you go somewhere, it's not a fit. And you got to find somewhere that is. It's kind of the story of people's lives. When did you find out your dad was sick? Well, I found out my dad was sick. He had cancer in October 2011. So freshman year of Harvard, he gave me a call and let me know that he had cancer

and that the prognosis wasn't very good. So that was, you know, we've talked about on here, on here, you know, you've kind of talked about how important my dad was to me. It was, you know, it was earth-shattering for me and transformative. Just kind of change my perspective on everything. So I guess the question becomes, though, he's sick. Is he in California? Because I know he had a place in Manhattan.

I'm just wondering, was it ever like, dude, I got to go be close to. to him when I'm doing. No, I think it was always our basketball journey, like pursue basketball. Like, that was always my answer, you know. He was traveling a lot. And then once I got to St. John's, he was living part-time in Manhattan. So we saw each other a ton then. But it was always pedal to the metal because I knew that that's what he wanted me to do.

I knew that he wanted me to pursue that. And that was my outlet. You know, that was my sanctuary, really. I mean, any athlete knows, you know, that sacred sanctuary where you kind of escape from the world and from your struggles. But I also knew that doing well in basketball and pursuing it as hard as could was making him proud. So I think that was always my answer when I was dealing, like whenever I was going through hard times or whatever in terms of seeing him struggle. Your senior year, there was the moment, was your senior night game when he was there. He was actually in a hospital, but.

The 24th, almost two days, 26, it was, two days, five years ago to the day almost. Right, so it will be, we'll drop this on that day. Perfect, perfect. Okay, so what do you remember? That was a whirlwind. Number one, the game was important, needed to win that game because that would, if we won, it would clinch us by in the Horizon League tournament. So number one, games, big deal.

We're playing our rival to Detroit University of Troy. We were playing our rival. Senior night. The team was, we were a good team. You know, we were one of the top teams in the conference. It was, so kind of a lot at stake. And then the night before, he called me and actually woke me up. We would stay in a hotel the night before.

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woken up. And then like once I like hung up the phone, I was like, shit. He's like, he's going to be there. And I was like super fired up. But still try to, you know, stay calm, keep,

you know, do my routine. And, you know, just because I wanted to play well, was excited to see him. And then we win the game. I play pretty well.

And it was senior night. So I give a little speech. There was a little ceremony. And then ESPN caught it where after the game, I just skipped the handshake lines and I run up into the crowd. And then he was actually in a hospital bed in the stands. And it was like an indescribable moment. And I'm fortunate enough that, you know, there's cameras on it that captured it. And so I can always look back at it and just have great memories from special night, you know, special night.

Once in a lifetime type of opportunity. What were the And I apologize that It's too personal What were your last conversations like? Yeah I mean at the time you don't know it's going to be the last conversation He passed eight days later

But at the time we just Honestly Honestly you know he told me He said And it was me, K Felder And I think Sharon Dorsey Walker he said, hey, when I get this taken care of when I'm all better, I'll just come back in the summer. I'll take you guys out to eat.

That'll be cool, right? And like, he was just like, he was just like, I mean, he was like had such a fighting spirit. And he was really not in a good place health-wise, you know, he was really, really struggling. But did you know how bad it was? I didn't know. Like, obviously, I knew he was not doing well at all. I knew he had a strong. I mean, he was bedridden, but I didn't know he was,

I didn't know he was going to pass in a week. You know, I thought I had, I hope I had a year. I hope I had six months or something like that, you know. But like, yeah, he told, like he was just, our conversations were just like they always were. Basically, like, whenever we would talk on the phone, he'd be like, you know, how did you play? It was always about basketball.

It was always about, like, staying positive. And like, he's like, like his first question when I came home, so do we clinch? like to be finished the buy like when's the tournament you know we need to kick these motherfuckers asses like that was that was how he was talking to me um and then uh you know just i don't even remember exactly what the quote unquote last words were but just like you know just i love you and like i believe in you and just keep going you know it wasn't it was nothing uh he was just his normal his normal self you know he he was just chipped um unbreakable fighter spirit is all like

That's the way I can remember it, you know, just like unbreakable and unfasable, pretty much. Is Oakland your alma mater? Like, here's my question with guys that are two-time transfers. Like, do you have a hunger? Is Oakland a place like, oh, that's where I went to school? Yeah, I claim Oakland for sure. I had a great opportunity, a great experience there. You know, my senior year was a great experience.

Keep in touch with Coach Campi, keep in touch with my teammates, mostly from there. So I definitely claim Oakland, I would say. the g league what was your experience like uh brief you know it was brief but uh exposure to pro basketball and you know exposure to the cutthroat nature you know if if you don't play well and you don't show what you need to show pretty much right away you know you can be cut and uh another step step up for me and i was a g league first round traffic and lasted just a couple games with the team and got cut but then later in the season got brought back to the team so just the the way that it the game is the rosters and everything is so in flux everything's changing and to it gives me an appreciation

for some of these guys who make it not as in first round traffic and you know who have the perseverance like it takes a lot of resilience to really get it done especially at the highest of levels in terms of how good you got to be and how consistent you got to be and then all right you did that Now, what can you do for me now? It's always, you know, it's always about the presence. No one cares what you've done in the past. Can you continue to do that at a high level? And being exposed to that, like, I think it helps my perspective now as a coach, especially coaching professionals, just understanding the grind and the expectations that go into it. If you were to, there's kids all over, you know, I do think shooting's better now than it was when I was a kid or maybe when you were. kid. Steph Curry told me he's like, look, one of the reasons is I've never been on a basketball

court that didn't have a three point line. And so, and it just, you know, kids shoot it more. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder. And our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. If I could be you. And you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes.

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Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. But like your routine, when you had your shooting routine, how many shots, for example, how many shots did you shoot in a day? Well, when I was coming up in high school and early in college, I would get on the shooting machine. I would aim to make 500 threes every day. what I kind of had to learn was it wasn't about just drilling shots in one place because like we've talked about the game is so like you know it's it's dynamic you know like you said Joe Harris can't just stand in the corner and make threes it's he's making threes with probably doing off the dribble or moving into him and guys are contested in it so

for me I was the gym rat who always shot and shot and shot and shot but then all right how do I apply this like how do I become an assassin in the game I think I then that was, number one, doing shooting drills on the move, sprinting into shots, footwork, you know, making sure my turns are right and everything, different angles. And then it's just going out and playing, playing ball, but playing freely. Maybe playing a little bit more loose than you would play in a normal game and pushing that envelope in terms of how can I get my shot off, you know. And that was a big thing to help me at St. John's was being able to get shots off against high-level athletes.

You know, I wasn't the most, the quick, I didn't have the quickest feat. You know, so I had to be smart and had to be precise and, you know, learn to use my footwork to get my shot off. So getting my shot off, that was a bigger challenge. I knew once I got them off I could make them. I just had to consistently be able to get them off. And then the, what about the mentality? Because, like, you're going to go through, guys go through where you can't make a shot. How do you fight through that confidence-wise?

Yeah, the mentality. I think, honestly, I think early in my career, I was. like a mental midget, you know what I mean? Like I would miss one and just get tightened up, um, and confidence would be lacking. But I think when things clicked for me and what led to my senior year was truly just caring less,

you know, just like a miss didn't, I didn't care. You know what I mean? Like I was honestly, and what really made it click for me was like, Hey man. My dad is sick with cancer.

I got one more year left to college. I don't have shit to lose. Like, I miss by airball, I'm doing what I do. You know, I have nothing to lose. And kind of when your back is against the wall, you, you know, some people rise to the occasion. And I think that's when that mentality clicked in place for me.

Like, hey, just, just trust yourself and do what you do. Like, offensively, you can't think too much. You got to react and just flow. And once I really tapped into that and the basically the, the fuck it mentality of being able to, you know, shoot those shots. And if you miss, okay, everyone misses. Like you said, Steph Curry misses more often than he makes. Like, I mean, that's what it was all about for me is getting that mentality to click into place.

But it's easier said than done. A lot easier said than done. No, no question. No question. And I think the smarter you are, the more your brain challenges you. Because you think, you over thinking. My thing was I hated to come out of games. And I felt like it was the only thing that would keep me out, take me out of games.

So I would miss a shot. I'd miss it. And it would just get in my head. Like I can shoot up. I just was so in my own head about every different shot. And it's something that I've really worked on with my own son. Just like, you know, we got to be process, not result, right? Was it a good shot?

Yeah, if he said, do you have a hand right? Did you feel like it was going to go in? Then fuck it, you know? Like, you're not, you are not going to make every shot. I eat to open the floor for the first time the last week. I was like standing up. And like, there was the first time his soft Newport Beach kid. He got getting a little grimy.

I love it. We need that. We need that. Right. Ultimate goal. Head coach in the NBA or front office? Head coach, 100%. You know, I'm a, it's a path, obviously, but I'm on the, I'm on run one of the ladder, you know. But I'm, I'm like my whole life. Look, dude. I mean, Vogel, video guy, spolster video guy.

They were in the NBA finals, right? Like, it's, it's, that's the path. Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not unattainable, you know, and I believe, I mean, I, like, when I'm up till 3 a.m., like, I'll be, I'll be up late tonight working on the Phoenix game. Like, I'm, I'm doing it with long-term developing in mind, you know, I'm not just going through the motions. Like, I really want to, you know, I eat, sleep and breathe this stuff, and I really, really want to do it. You know, I want to be a head coach. College head coach would be great as well, you know. You learn so much in the NBA.

college head coach would be great. Recruiting is a different thing. But, I mean, for me, like, this is where my passion lies. And I don't see anything else that I would want to do. I feel like this is, um, this is what I want to pour myself into. And always it was pouring myself into being, playing in the NBA. And now it's like, hey, just flip that switch. And now it's just pour all that passion and drive into being, uh, being the best coach I can be. It's pretty amazing. Like, here's where we're similar. Like, you know, so much of our lives are spent in a, in a car with our dads going to a basketball game and them kind of supporting us. And like basketball has provided me this incredible lifestyle, right? Right. And it's our going to do the same for you. And there's,

I think there's thousands of us around the country that are like that, right? Which all you want to do is help your kid achieve his dream. And all the kid wants to do is have the dad to help him. And it's pretty amazing to see. I mean, I'm sure your dad is so proud of you right now, probably even more proud of you than he was when you're hooping it open. when you kick those motherfuckers asses like exactly how many three that was always the question how many threes they made? The most you made in a game ever was where was what? High school 11 and in college

I had nine in a game it was against Green Bay it was actually a road trip I went nine for you know seven for 10 and nine for 14 and back-to-back games that was like those were like my two blow-up games and so that's 16 made threes and two games k feldor assisted 15 of them and and the one he didn't he was fouled out and i had to take it off the dribble one so no one assisted it so he and i we had some good synergy i owe him a lot yeah let's well and and and great campy you know the master of the sweater a big sweater

guy upper echelon sweater game unreal yeah I just, is it the same sweater all the time? Are they different sweaters? Different. Different. But yeah, if anyone hasn't seen it, Google, Greg Hampi, a Christmas, ugly Christmas sweater, he had the one with the reindeer that came out the chest and out of his back.

So that was a, that's big time. That's solid. Yeah. The glimmers of the video room, people ask all the time, like, well, video room is all you got to do to get into the NBA. your life is how much basketball do you watch during a day? I mean, it depends on when you're prepping for a game, but like there's,

it's pretty much just a video out you're always doing something because like I said, it's five games. So you don't scout, I don't scout every single team, but I scout every one every two to three games. And so Portland plays their last game of that five. We play Portland on Friday, so I'll be finishing my Portland report today.

Then we play four. Phoenix next week. And so I'm already on game three of Phoenix. So like you're concurrently working on those teams and you're digging deep into those. So I mean, like you said, oh, don't you just have to break down the games? It's like, I mean, yeah, but I don't know if everyone wouldn't be willing to, like tonight I'm probably going to be up until 2 or 3 a.m. breaking down the Phoenix game because it's a West Coast game.

So I'm not sure that everyone's going to be willing to do that every single night, you know. Right. But Ryan, you know, you make a couple hundred thousand dollars doing it. So, you know. Yeah. close to a million dollars doing it, right? I wish. I wish. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, last, last thing. Um, if, if, if you were to, to, to, to, 17-year-old max, you were to get of them one piece of advice, what would it be? I would say like just like if you have one direction you want to go and like trust it you know like don't second guess and I don't think I did that but I think you would say trust it and kind of I guess the saying that everyone likes to say it now is like bad on yourself but it's real you know like if you like people there was definitely backlash or negativity just oh you know why did you want to leave Harvard or why do you want to leave St. John's and it was just like I

I was just trusting myself. You know, I felt like that was the right move for me. And I, um, I didn't need to appease anyone, you know, I was doing what I felt like with this. But I also think, though, that what you discovered at Oakland is, is a big key, which is like, we all worry about levels of school and, and, and, and prestige of school, which I do think is important. Like, you know, like, look, if you had a Harvard degree right now, like, it doesn't suck.

It's not a bad decision. but go somewhere you're going to play. If you're a basketball, now if you're on a basketball, it's okay. Go somewhere you're going to get a great degree or get to have a good time. Or go to school. Yeah, have fun. Yeah, have fun. Right.

If you're going to, but if you're going to, if you're a hooper, right, if you're a, I always have shoes in a ball of my car, I just want to, I love playing basketball. If you're really a hooper, go somewhere you're going to play because you're not going to be happy if you're not playing. And go somewhere where somebody like you, like you would Travis Bader, right? somebody who plays like you has had success because you know i can't tell you how many times guys i was recruited by that like i i give one so kevin o'neill recruited me to tennessee and lawrence frank was his assistant and this is i transferred from notre dame and they had just gotten the job and they literally

would just carpet bomb you with letters every day sure and then i never forget like we want to play fast and get athletes to go up and down and i don't forget like i click on the game that playing kentucky and they got like 14 at the half, you know, and they're holding the ball. Now, they had to at that point in time because they didn't have dudes, but it's more the idea of like, yeah, I don't, that's not me. Whereas when I went to Oklahoma State, granted, I was much more athletic and not as good to shoot her as Sean Sutton, but I had seen him have different point guards, kind of like me, have success.

And part of it was I had to see it, I had to see their team to go like, oh, if you move this guy to the two and this guy to three and the Desmond Mason, from the three to the four, like, oh, now a sudden we got a team, and I can dime them up, like we can go. But I do think that it's trusting your basketball instinct, going somewhere you can play. Yeah. And that's when you can bet on yourself, bet on yourself at a place where you feel like you can get the opportunity. And if you get the opportunity, you're not any good, like, all right, well, then you figure out what's next. But sitting over there, wanting that opportunity just sucks. That's a, that's a hard feeling. Yeah. And I think,

I think there's two ways you can play it, because you can, use basketball as a vehicle. You know, let's say you want to go to XYZ school and basketball helps you get in and your basketball experience is what it is, but you have a great experience. You live in a city you love. You get a great degree. You build a network, you know, alumni network. So, I mean, that can be your motivation. But like you said, if you're the dude with the ball and the shoes in the trunk and, you know, you want to give your best shot of being a pro and, you know, making basketball your existence more or less, then you got to go where the shoe fits.

You know, even if you're a step, I see that on the coaching side, like, and I start to think about, hey, how would I utilize this guy? Or like, what actions would this guy,

you know, look good off of it or what, how can we use this guy defensively? And because you're trying to maximize each player and, in turn, use that to maximize the team. So like K. Felder,

if K. Felder would have squeaked out of scholarship, to Michigan State, what do you have done what he did at Oakland? Of course not. You know what I mean? He would have been behind guys, you know, in the rotation. Instead, he goes to Oakland, plays 36 minutes a game as a freshman, plays 39 minutes a game as a sophomore, grows and develops, and it is an NBA draft player, you know? So like, fit is really the only thing that matters kind of because you got to have a coach who has your back and who's going to put you in the spots to succeed. Great stuff, man. Listen, good to catch up. but I do well.

It's been too long, you know. It's always a pleasure. I know. I will be in Boston this summer, whether you're there. And if you're in L.A., I know you have tons of friends here, too, but we got to, we got to hang. And I got to get you my little guy. I got to get you my little shooting lesson. I love that.

That would be fun. Keep me posting on his progress. I definitely will. That I will. Thanks for joining me. Appreciate you. Wasn't that great? Wasn't that interesting, right?

Like we talked to NBA stuff. then we talked about his life and about fit. Oh man, that was, that was awesome stuff. A reminder if you like my way of doing things, you can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show, 3 to 6 Eastern, 12 through Pacific on Fox Sports trader, the Iheart radio app. You can also send me a tweet at Gottlieb show.

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