The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Former Pro Bowl WR TJ Houshmandzadeh Talks Police Profiling, Dropping Out of HS, Oregon St. SQUAD, Ocho, MJ/LeBron

Episode Date: June 4, 2020

In this episode, Doug is joined by former NFL Pro Bowl wide receiver TJ Houshmandzadeh discusses his personal experiences with being racially profiled by police, his turbulent upbringing, including dropping out of high school, selling drugs, and making it to the NFL by way of Oregon St. with Chad Ochocinco. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all?

You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Remember all those big dreams used to have and then life made other plans? With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back.

Start your own business or commit to van life with a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Now, you could win the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode for. Four by four that we have enter the Dan Patrick show Ultimate Camping Rigs Sweepstakes. To enter, get official rules. Visit Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com. Have to do it by February 2nd for your chance to win. Thunderstruck, adjective. Shocked and amazed by the power of fun on Carnival. Riding Bolt, the world's first roller coaster at sea. Brian got thunderstruck so hard, his 93-year-old grandmother felt it 3,000 miles away in Nebraska

and immediately booked a cruise. Hooray! Get Funderstruck starting at 289. Carnival, choose fun. Cruises run U.S. dollars per person double occupancy. Taxes, import expenses, additional restrictions, apply. Full details on carnival.com, ships, registry, Bahamas, Panama. Hey, welcome in.

This is All Ball, the All Basketball podcast all the time. Here's what we're going to do, okay? A little different this time. I have some basketball thoughts about the NBA, and as I get back to playing, you know, does it hurt the Portland? Does it hurt the Memphis Grizzlies? Yeah, but three and a half games up with like eight games to play.

If you can't close the deal, you didn't deserve to be in the playoffs anyway. I don't love the fact that they're waiting two months. I think if you're going to play these preliminary games, you can play them earlier in July. I do think the product will be better because of the kind of ramp up to the playoffs that they're going to build. I wonder what the ratings will be like going up

against football, but we all, I think most of us knew the NBA would eventually be back. It was just in what form or fashion. And, you know, look, it's going to be interesting. Maybe the reason they're delaying is because what they really want is to play in home arenas. And though they're setting up the bubble, there is the outside shot that conference finals, maybe NBA finals get played in an arena if we pull out of the coronavirus quarantine better than expected.

That said, who wouldn't be happy about basketball being back? But here's what I want to do this week. T.J. Hushmanzada is my guest. He's a former Pro Bowl wide receiver with the Cincinnati Bengals. He's got an amazing story. We'll talk some basketball. We'll talk some protests. And we'll talk about the life of T.J.

Hushman Zada. Did you know he dealt drugs? Did you know he dropped out of high school? Did you know that when he's at Oregon State, they went 11 and 1 and kick the crap out of Notre Dame. You're about to find out. Here's my guest, T.J. Hushmanzada. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m.

Eastern, noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app. Let's welcome in. He's the one. He's the only T.J. Hushmanzada. Hush, how are you? I'm doing good, man. How are you? Good, man.

I want to ask you. I got a bunch of things to get to, and I want to try and allow you to tell your own kind of personal story, which I find to be one of the most fascinating ones in sports. But let's start with what everyone's talking about, which is these protests. And as we'll kind of detail as you tell your story, like you weren't always on the right side of the law. You weren't always the father and former superstar NFL player you are today. When I say police as a black man who grew up mostly in California, but in other parts of

the country as well. how do you feel when you view people protesting the police and their treatment, specifically of African Americans? Oh, man. I can go to so many different layers when we talk that. And I can just speak from experience. Number one, he got arrested when he was in the ninth grade, about 13, 14, 14 years old. He got out when he was 23 or 24.

First offense had never been in trouble. I had a friend, and my brother got arrested for armed robbery. I had a friend get arrested for attempted murder. He's white Mexican, but he looks white. When they arrested my brother, they ruffed his ass up, ruffed his ass up. My brother just walked him out of the house. This is attempted murder.

They just walk him out. No roughing him up, nothing. Even to this day, to this day, I get pulled over. It's like, I mean, the last time I got pulled over, And part of it was my fault. I didn't stop completely at the stop sign. My son was in a back seat.

He said he was about it. I literally was 500 feet from my house. Right. Get pulled over by the sheriff. And literally walks up with his hand on his gun. I'm like, bro, I know I did that. But my son did the back seat, he had to be made a huge deal called back up. They pulled guns.

And I'm like, dude, what are you guys doing? Like, I live right here. What are you guys doing? And so it's a problem. it's a problem. It needs to be addressed. It's going to take time. But it's something that we as black men have dealt with forever.

So you kind of get used to it. It's sad that you get used to it because it happens on a regular basis for the most part. Yeah. See, I, you know, I always thought that again, you know, like our backgrounds are different. I've gotten in trouble before, you know, with the law. But I've always thought that the cop thing was a problem. power trip thing, right? That you get, you get the, the guy who, you know, the guy who becomes a cop, a lot of them are guys that they want to, they get to hand of a gun. They get to be in charge.

They get to be boss man, if you will. I never, I never, because I, it's really hard to see yourself in somebody else's shoes experience it through, you know, a black man's shoes, which I cannot. I always just, that's what I, that's what I assumed. Has it changed, has it evolved? You're saying it hasn't, right? It's still, this is now with you with your son. It has and changed since you're again. This happened probably about three weeks before the coronavirus before the lockdown, the quarantine. Oh, it's happened.

Well, my daughter, she's a sophomore in college. She was a sophomore in high school. I'd never forget this, but never forget it. I was still driving her to school. And I would just get up, put a hoodie on, drop her off, come home. The same police officer pulling me over like six times in two weeks. Sheriff, not the sheriff. And the last time,

when I tell you, I was so angry, I went up to the sheriff station. He kept pulling me over because he said, I had Windows Tid on my car. Well, when I go to the sheriff's station, the guy's like, oh, my son has Windows Tid on his car. We all have, the sheriff pulls you over. He's being an A-hole for Wendotent.

The same guy, just kept pulling me over, the same guy. And I think he wanted me to go off on him, which I did, but I think he might have wanted me to take it a little further. I don't know. I will tell you that when I moved to California the first time, I was working for CBS, I had an Audi and that I bought from a buddy of mine in Oklahoma,

and it had window tint on the front, and we kept getting pulled over for it. Finally, we took it off. And it was like one of those things like, what are you doing? I never really understood it. On the other hand, when I got pulled over, you know, they might not have been nice to me, but it wasn't like I felt unsafe, right? Like, there's a difference between everybody getting pulled over for the same thing and how it makes you feel, right? And that's really kind of what it's about.

It's the feeling of like, hey, man, you're just, you're acting as if you're harassing me and trying to hide behind the tin windows. Exactly, yes, yes. It was like, it really felt like a harassment. And it was like to the point where I was, I was, man, I was frustrated. And it was like the same guy really, like, you recognize my. car by now, bro, it's like pulling you up when it seems like every day. Yeah, I thought it was

ridiculous and I went up to the, like I said, the sheriff station says something about it. And, oh, I didn't put over again. What coincidence? I've had this, I have had this thought and I've shared on the radio show, which is like, look, all of this, we're all sitting here saying, like,

you know, Kaepernick had a point, right? Kaepernick and Eric Reed had a point. But my issue with Kaepernick is, like, look, this is a movement where even cops are now taking a knee. That's the symbolic gesture that Colin Kaepernick took. I'm just wondering why he hasn't made himself into a visible leader of this portion of the movement. You know, Doug, I don't think we, and when I say we as people, I don't think we can force our viewpoint onto Kaepernick. like you said, be a visible figure.

He chooses to operate in the dark, so to speak, in the background. And for him, that's what he sees fit. And I think we got to get away from because this is what we want somebody to do or be. That's not how he's going to operate. As long as he's trying to exact change, whether he's in the front or the background, he's still trying to get the same thing done. I think we've got to get away from. You need to be in front.

You need to be saying exactly this. He said what he was doing and what he was trying to get accomplished and the reasons why. The background, I believe, it should have been enough because we can't force anybody to be something that they're not.

He probably didn't feel comfortable doing that. He probably didn't feel comfortable nilling it, but he felt he had an obligation to do it and he did it. And so because he hasn't been at the forefront, I don't see it as a problem, but I know people that do, and I don't understand why. T.J. Hushmanzada, it's an interesting way of looking at it. I've experienced basketball teams where there's guys that are supposed to be leaders that can't be leaders. I do think that's one of the things that haunted him when he was a quarterback, though, is that he's just not comfortable being that sort of visible leader, right?

If you remember the first time he lost his job with the Niners, there was the talk of, of, well, he's quiet. He's got his headphones all all the time. He's not really a rah-rah get behind us sort of guy. And I do think that is his personality, but it is part of what hurt him when he was with the Niners. Is that at least fair? Yeah, that's a fair. So I'm sure if it's quarterbacks, you have to communicate. And there's times you've got to, in essence, grab the bull by the horns and take over

and be that extra coach on the field and just do things you may not be comfortable doing. and his personality can probably be as such. I'm just not 100% comfortable doing this or doing that. And that's okay. We, in the media now that I'm in the media, and even as a player, we always try to make our better players, especially our quarterbacks, the leaders of the team. Some of them don't have a personality and they try to lead

and guys don't follow because they see that, they sense that, they feel that. And so is that Kaepernick? I don't know Kaepernick very well. I met him once. Very pleasant. The conversation flowed. It was very, I thought he was a cool dude, but when you start getting into this element, I don't know.

And maybe he doesn't feel comfortable in a situation. Or maybe he just doesn't want all the attention on him. Who knows what it is? But he was ahead of his time with this. And what he did, it was no, it wasn't just, oh, police brutality, it just been going on. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does happen, black men are losing their lives. And that has to, because I'll be able to tell you, I don't have the best attitude when it comes stuff like that. Last night, a blown call changed a game.

This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to SportsLice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it.

And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, Hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue 42.

Hey, rep, my mama wants you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Easily can be me because Mike Tampa will get the best of it. Man, I got four kids, man. I can't have that going on because I lose my temper.

And what you said, these guys are on the power. That has to stop, man. Like, it's a life. You get one life. When it's over, it's over. There's no do-over. There's no going back. You can't plug yourself in a wall and reach, like, it's over, man.

So, like, the beautiful part about being in California, and it's happening in California is you grow up with so many different races, so many different people. that we learn to get involved with everybody's sports obviously teaches that because it's so many different ways you come from different background. And so it has to stop. And again, with Catherine, yes, would you want to see them at the forefront? But I'm okay with you being in the background because you're trying to exact change.

You're actually putting in normal money, you sweat, your tears, your time. And so that has to say something. It has to mean a lot. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow. valentines with 1 800 flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmetters, and more. Surprise your valentine with 1,800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stem enchanted rose medley for $39.99, or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more.

Go to 1-800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1-800flowers.com slash tune in. If I could be you And you could be me For just one hour If you could find a way To get inside Each other's mind Walk a mile in my shoes

Walk a mile in my shoes Walk a mile in my shoes We've all felt left out And for some That feeling lasts more than a moment We can change that Learn how at belonging Begins With Us.org

Brought to you by the ad council Walk a mile in my shoes What grows in the forest trees, sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this

and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Yeah, I think the other issue

and obviously if you get stereotyped in terms of you, I think this is the big issue I believe with cops and in, this is where I would support them is anytime you roll up to anybody's car nowadays, you have no idea who's packing, right? Like part of that is I don't know what you talk about your attitude. Like what would your attitude be like if you were a cop? And anytime you roll up for a guy rolling a stop sign, you have no idea on that window you knock on what's, you know,

what that guy has in his glove box, right? Now, they're supposed to be trained and know how to deal with it and have better bedside manner. And I also think there's a good element to it to which, you know, whoever you are, you know, just because a black man is the guy you're pulling over. That doesn't mean he's more likely to have a gun than anybody else, right? I'd love to see the stats that say that because I don't believe they exist, right? I think white guys are actually more likely to have a firearm license or otherwise. But I think that's a big issue to it as well, which is like you don't know who's packing. And, you know, my attitude wouldn't be good if I have to knock on somebody's window and ask

them to give me license registration and I don't know what what's going to happen when they roll down that window. On the other hand, it's how they deal with it. All right, let's get to your story. Okay. Because it's one of the most fascinating things. And generally, I reserve this pod. We talk about hoop.

And I know you love Hoop, and we'll talk about that some before we bid a do. But you didn't finish high school. You become an NFL star. Like, how does that – your story is a movie. How does that happen? A bit of luck. Maybe somebody going to hear this and they're going to make a movie. Who knows?

I don't know. It's really – I don't know, man. It's crazy. Like me and my – he's like, my best. friends. They've been my best friends since, some since elementary, majority since junior high, a couple since high school. These are the dudes that I'm still cool with for this day. I don't know. It just growing up, as a crackhead, drink a lot on the first and the 15th, and anybody from the hood know what the first of 15th, what those days represent. And so it was just, it was just, right?

Right, payday or government payday, whatever. Like, that's when you get money. That's when you got, well, I'll have her check. Yeah, the first and the 15th. Yeah, and so the first and the 15th, we just knew we was going to get a little money here and there about $5,000, and the rest was going to go to drugs and alcohol. And so that's just, we, that was a way of life. Let's get back to the police really quick, Doug.

When the police didn't come to our neighborhood, police coming to the neighborhood, not the dope ways running from the police, like that was exciting for. me. When they didn't happen, it felt like, oh, today's boring. So that's how I grew up. Like, when they came to the neighborhood and all the dope boys start running, as a kid seeing that, it was excitement.

And when that didn't happen, it was like, oh, today was boring. So that's another thing. But, yeah, my mom, she didn't emphasize school, man. My mom had four kids. And the youngest one is the only one of us to graduate. And so, school wasn't emphasized.

Nothing was really emphasized. We could kind of go as we please. I was in between my mother. It was a lot strict, very strict. And so obviously, we didn't want to be there. We wanted to be with our mother because we got to do what we wanted to do. And so living with my mom, I just didn't go to school out of high school. A half years total. Didn't play football until my senior year in high school.

Grades came out. Obviously, I wasn't eligible. So I said, why am I going to school? I can't play sports. And, yeah, that was it, man. I went and played at Juco. And once I got the Juco, I had a really good first year. A division one, a lot of schools are going to recruit Juco, Nitcher GED.

So after my first year at Juco at Threatos College, I went and got my GED. Yeah, and I buckled down in Jukego, I really did. I did well enough to get my A.A. I like the always thing, and I tell people this. I just didn't apply myself. I like to look at myself as an intelligent person. I just did not apply myself. And so when I decided to apply myself,

school came rather easy for me. Let me go back to when you're in, why are you in Oklahoma City? My mom, I was living with my grandmother, and my mom met a guy, and he went to Oklahoma City, and we hopped on a Greyhound. I would probably say six months after she was there

and moved Oklahoma City. How old were you? I was probably 12. or 13. So you get to Oklahoma City. That's when I really got into the streets, really was in Oklahoma City, believe it or not. I met a guy named Sean, and we started shooting dice, and shooting, we only had $20 each, and a dice game, he walked into something completely else, and then that's when I

got into the streets, and when I came back to California, I pretty much stayed in the streets. Okay, wait, wait, wait, so you're using, I know what you're talking about, but, that is your listening to pod, we've had this conversation before. Okay, so you're shooting dice and what happens? How does it evolve into something else? What's that mean? It was just, you shoot dice, and again, we're just shooting dice for a dollar, dollar bills, anybody there.

It goes back and forth. Nobody kind of gets an upper hand because nobody wants to bet enough money to lose their $20 extremely quick. And so then when I say getting the streets, you go sell drugs. So we combined our money and was like, let's see how much we can do with this. and then eventually we kind of stood up and went our separate ways, but stayed friends. And again, I was only in Oklahoma

for about eight months. I probably went to school, and that was the beginning of the end because I believe in freshman year in high school, I didn't go to school in Oklahoma. I literally registered for school and probably went to school three days.

So how do you, how do you, like, again, and like you don't, you're not like selling anybody out now because it's 30 years later. How do you, like, how do you, okay, we pull, you got 40 bucks. How do you go get enough money to sell, like how does it work to go get drugs and sell drugs? Like, how does that happen?

So it's very simple. I let the double up. Guys in the hood, you give them $40. They'll give you $80 with a crack cocaine. And so you said, why do they give you $80? Why do they give you $80 with a crack if you only give them $40? That's what's a double up. They try to help me get going.

They basically help me. And then that $80. You go and you get $80. You sell it yourself. You and Sean sell it. Yeah, me and Sean sell it ourselves. I mean, literally sold in like 30 minutes. So we're like, oh, my God, $0.50 this fast?

So we went and got a 16th. Now, 16th, when you cut up, crack cocaine, if you cut it up, well, a 16th can make you like $190,200 bucks. So you go get a 16th and you do that. And then you split the money, you do it again, then you go your separate ways. Because now we both got $3, $300. and now you can kind of get your own 16th back then it went for a hundred years ago obviously

yeah I mean it was so many close encounters man like getting shot at the police coming away at our spot and here I am 14 years old moving around like I'm a grown man and it just was so crazy like but that was exciting for me but looking back on it

like I couldn't imagine my kids having to grow through that but that was part of course from me growing up that was more important I thought it was normal. I knew I didn't live great, but I didn't think I lived that bad. So I met some friends that had some money, and you go to her house, and they're like, oh, my God, this dude got a mansion. And now I look back at that house and, like, I was that out of the house.

How did you know how to cut it? I don't know. Just kind of learn. You see them cut it when they give it to you, and then you just kind of learn. You know, you just kind of learn. And then it just evolved. When I came back to California, I didn't really do as much crack. I just started selling weed.

Okay, so I want to get to that in a second, but okay, how do you, how did you not get caught? Like, this seems like a- I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea. I would always tell people like, I'm just too smart. And I know that sounds like, yeah, that's what they all say. But I don't know why.

Again, how did I make it to the league? I just got lucky somebody was watching over me. It was just meant for me to have these tribulations. and not be affected. And, I mean, get caught. I mean, I was shot at, and people next to me are getting shot, and nothing happens to me. I mean, it was just a bit of luck, man, really, to be honest with you.

So when you move back, you moved to Barstow, right? Yeah, I moved to Barstow. My grandson, my mother stayed in Oklahoma. We caught a Greyhound back to California, lived with my grandmother. My grandmother very, very, very religious. Jehovah Witness her entire life. Um, so like, I mean, we'd come back to California and went to Barstow,

but we would be with our grandmother, would be with our mother, we'd be back and forth. And so I had friends in Barstow. And so as soon as I got there, I was like, hey, man, what's up? I need the body. We got to get the street. And so, like, they were my childhood friends. And so just started doing the same thing, minus the crack cocaine, and just went to weed. I was a little older, understood it a little more.

Yeah, but the crazy thing is, and I will say that, I've never done a drug in my life, man. I've never smoked anything today at my life. I might drink once a year, and it could be because I tell my mom to it so much. It just, I would never do it. Okay, so you get, so how did you get from, you were selling weed in Barstow, right?

Mm-hmm. How do you get from, like, so how big did it get? Like, the biggest it got in Barstow was what? I mean, I always had money. I will say that. I mean, like, I always had... Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves.

Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the truth. triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite Therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on Earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just.

because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations

about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this guy, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, A, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, Brett, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Nice, chuck a change. I'm talking thousands, always. Always.

I mean, I was doing all right, but I was I ever, and I was never one of those big dope boys. Well, I had this and that. I mean, I had a Cutler Supreme, my 86 on some of claims. I didn't even have dating. But I always had a few thousand dollars for sure. during this entire time, you're growing up, okay? SoCal to Oklahoma City to Barstow. Were you playing sports?

You were just hanging out, shooting dice? What were you doing? We've obviously growing up in our time, we would go to the park and play basketball. We would play, you can't even use this term anymore, but when we called it, it was smear the queer. You throw the ball up, the guy gets it, every, he goes, tackles them.

We would play those type of game. I was always a sports fan, so I've always watched every sport, huge fan of boxing. Everybody knows that football, basketball, just got into baseball six, seven years ago because of my kids. But I've always been a huge sport. I think mentally just watching a game, I've always been a pretty good athlete. I was pretty much good at every sport, at least in my eyes I was, and I think that's part of the reason. Athletes are good because you believe you are good. Yeah, and I just went out to the football team.

The Anisio Monar is a Mexican dude, big dude, defensive linemen. He didn't take no shit. So he would yell at us. I would yell back. He'd like, get the F out of here. And I would buck up to him. And he would buck up like, TJ, don't get your ass beat out here. And I wasn't used to that type of, I just wasn't lose that type of leadership,

that voice that you're not going to run over me, you're going to be disciplined. You're going to have some respect for you. yourself and your team. I just wasn't used to that. I couldn't play because we would class all the time. I went off a practice, practice two days. We get into it. I'm off the team. And then finally going into my senior year, I was like, if I was just yell at me. And he yelled at me a few times. He's seen that I kept coming back and the rest of his history kept playing. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1-800-flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination.

1-800 flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise. Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1-800flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values. To order today, visit 1-800flowers.com slash tune-in. That's 1-800flowers.com slash tune-in. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure.

Know what else grows in the forest? our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them.

You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council.

Were you always a wide receiver? No, I was a runner back in high school. I was a running back in the DBA in high school, and it was my choice to move the receiver when I went to Cerritos Junior College because I always, just watching TV, I thought all the runoffacks were big. I thought they were all bigger to me, and as soon as I get to Cerritos, I'm like,

oh, I'd be the biggest runnerback here, but I had already made my mind up that I was set of play receiver, and so go to Cerritos College, and I'm a receiver. Wait, but how did you pick Cerritos College? I was like Barstow, drop out of high school. How did you decide, like, Cerritos is the place I want to go and play football? I told you about DeNiciel Omergarez. He played at Cerritos.

Left Cerritos once in Nebraska. So when he played at Cerritos, he wouldn't coached at Cerritos for a year. And my best friend, his name is Cush. And the funny thing is, he don't smoke as just his nickname. I have no idea why his parents nicknamed him Cush, but breakfast that he doesn't smoke. he was one of the top receivers in the state of California our senior year

he didn't qualify so he went to Cerritos what Coach Menars wanted him to come to Cerritos and I'm like we always together there's no way you're going to Sherritos and I'm staying here I'm going with you so I went with Cush to Cerritos because they wanted him

I was just a tag-along friend that came along with Cush Coach Minars is supposed to coach there and that's why we went he ended up taking a job at the University of Idaho. So we think we're going to go be playing for Coach Minores again. He leads. He bounces.

He's gone. And so it was just like, ah, here we go. And so, yeah, it worked out. I got lucky Cush, I would say like a week before, my first game of Cerritos College. She broke his foot. I was third string. Cush, his backup, Lanyay.

I forget Lanyay's last name. He got arrested. Oh, first game, I started, first played a game. I bombed somebody like 80 yards. How amazing is that, like, somebody else gets, like, all the shit you did and somebody else gets arrested ends up allowing you to play and to ball out, right? Like, like, just a, it's like a halo that's around you. So Oregon State recruits you. Did Dennis Erickson recruit you himself?

Was there a wide receivers coach? How'd you end up in Corvallis? So coming out of Juco, I was fairly highly recruited. I was probably a top three recruit the country. myself as a kid named Delvon Flowers from El Camino that went to Arizona State and I believe the other guy named was Eddie Williams I believe he went to Arkansas I believe that was the name I could be wrong but anyway I was recruited I had I was recruited by a lot of teams in a pack 12 pretty much everybody minus UCLA Stanford

but I was recruited by pretty much all the schools in a patent and now the Pact 12, some SEC schools in the Big East. And so who recruited me at Oregon State was a guy named Mike Johnson. I believe he's at Penn State now. No, he's Mississippi State. But I don't know where he's at. Michael Johnson. He's the one recruited me.

His son's at Penn State. His son's a quarterback now. And so he was on the staff with Mike Riley. Mike Riley leaves, and I believe goes to the Chargers, Eric, and gets the job, keeps Mike Johnson on. So now Mike Johnson and Eric Yarber recruit me,

who's not a receiver coach of the L.A. Rams. And so my Juko coach, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know where to go. He was like, they just hired Dennis Erickson. They're going to throw the ball around, coming from Miami, blah, blah, blah. And so that's why I went.

And crazy thing, it was like 15 of us from Juko. We all took our recruiting trip at the same time. We were all Jucoe, all Americans and we all went to Oregon State and turned it around and a handful of us we end up playing in the league. By the way, Mike Johnson, that was his, that was, he was a, he played for the Shreveport Pirates, the Orlando Predators, the British Columbia Lions and the Canadian Football League.

He was a Juko guy himself, Arizona State to Mesa Community College. And then, you know, now he's, last year he was with, I believe Mississippi, C, and, you know, State as their wide receiver coach. Yeah, but he's been, he was with the Niners as well. He's the Niners' Offensive Coordinator one year, kind of ironically enough. Okay, so you get there. You get to Oregon State. The first time you met Chad Johnson was where and when?

I met Chad prior to Arizona. I mean, our receiver coach, who's the one who started this footwork craze that everybody's doing now, Charles Collins, the OG. We call him Co-C. Santa Monica. That's where Chad went to Juco at. him and Steve Smith. Eric Yarber, who the L.A. got went to Cresch off high school.

Co. C. with the manual arts. They were childhood friends. YARB introduces me to CoC., coach Chad, trains Chad. And so we linked up, we heading off to Oregon State. What was he like? Oh, and you know what's funny? Let me give you a story how Chad got to Oregon State. It's crazy how things worked.

We had a guy on our football team a receiver name, My Gerald Jones. Went to El Camino. He got kicked off the team for stealing somebody's DJ equipment. The scholarship came open. They gave it to Chad. That's how Chad got there. But Chad has always been, for me. Chad is a quiet dude, man.

Real chill. Great dude. Like, Chad is one of the nice people you meet will give you the shirt off his back a thousand times if you ask him a thousand times. Probably too nice. But very quiet. And then you put a camera in his face

so the competition gets going, and you're like, oh, my God, I thought he was quiet. And so, but initially he just real quiet, real chill, just working, trying to get better. Like, when I saw chat, I was like, he was like the best team I had ever seen. The way he moved, it was like, whoa. In reality, he was real petition started.

Did anybody to Oregon State, did they know about your upbringing, about your background? Like, did you ever tell anybody like, hey, you know, I used to sell drugs up until, like, I decided to be a football player? No, I don't know. You know what? To be honest, I probably yes and no, but in a lot of guys, and I don't want to say a lot, I don't want to. That's like par for the course in our neighborhood, like guys that you're going to sell some weed, you're going to sell some crack here and there. That's the only way to get money you think, you see, because that's all you see.

Like, the dope boys growing up, they got nice cars, they got all the pretty girls. You're like, I want to be like someone so. Delope will not grow up. And you see that. And so you think that's the way to go because you see nothing else. You don't see nobody getting up going to work to be a doctor, going to work to be a lawyer, going towards law. You don't see that. At least I didn't.

And so what you see, that's what we aspire to be. And so the guys at Oregon State that the majority of them story is, very, very similar to mine. They just didn't play the NFL. But everything else, it's very, very similar. So when you tell that story, when I tell my story, I'm telling

the story of so many others minus the NFL because they've been through it already. You guys went 11 and 1, right? You beat Notre Dame in the Fiesta Bowl. Your only loss was a three-point

loss at Washington. What do you remember more? The Washington loss or the Notre Dame win? The Washington lost, because I remember it like yesterday, our defense was, see, that's what people, we were so good defensively that if we weren't rolling on offense, our defense kept us in the game, but I'd never forget it. I believe UW hit us for over 250 Russian and 250 passes. Worst game, our defense played all year.

It was on the road. It was extremely loud. That's when they had Marcus Tuii. I was a quarterback. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we picket here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all right. Yeah, yeah. Literally. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack.

So I'm starting to see there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clifford Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Clifford Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Come on out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What?

Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Cliverd show on the I-Heart Radio. app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Willie Hurst is a running back, and we get the ball last. We drive the length of the field, and we missed the field goal to send it to overtime. The only kick that field goal kick, I believe, is that. That's the Fiske. Wait, what was the guy's name?

I can, I can, you want to know, it's, uh, I believe that was, your kicker was Ryan Sesska, correct. He made four extra points. Huh? Was that the only kick he missed all year, I believe, huh? Correct. No, he missed three field goals that year. He missed one extra point that year.

Oh, no, wait, wait, 2000. This 2001? Yeah, you know, he missed a couple field goals. But he was a very good kicker. That was his sophomore year. He made 16 out of 19 field goals. Yeah, I mean, I remember that, like, it was yesterday because, in essence, that's a national championship, because you know how they did it back then,

I felt we were the best team. Our defensive linemen were running 4-5, 4-6, and offensively we could throw, we could run. I mean, we could just do so much, but, you know, it was always going to be the Florida State, the Miami, Oklahoma, that were always, we started, I don't, we're unranked. We started at the bottom, and so it was,

you lose that game in Washington. It was so hard to get picked to playing that national. At the time, we got, I picked the plan at the other bowl. They didn't even know who was going to get picked to play at. Because Washington was going to the Rose Bowl because it was a three-way tie and the Rose Bowl could pick who they wanted to play and that type of stuff between or the two-way tie between us and Washington because we beat Oregon in the Civil War.

So it was just one of those things where we would, I thought, but it's all talking. You never really get a chance to prove it, at least back then, not the way you do today. Yeah, I'm interested in that Notre Dame. you guys show up, you got, what did you say, 15 Jukos? 15 Jukos. Oh, at least. Yeah, at least, right?

Like, Juko City, you guys have dudes for days. And you're at the Fiesta Bowl, getting ready to play Notre Dame. And having gone to Notre Dame, I know that, like, Notre Dame, there's a level of confidence, arrogance, right? Like, you got the best of the best. I got to think at some point very early on the game, they must have figured out this was this is not a game a team that they really want any part of early on i don't know if uh coach erics was just trying to get us out for the game but

so you know how you do ball games i don't know if it's somewhere in basketball because it's march madness things that you're playing so often but for ball games you have a banquet and initially we were told that the teams were going to intermingle it'll be three guys from the other day and three guys from morgan state and one coach at each table. That's initially what we were told. So we get to the banquet, and Dutton's like, oh, they don't want to do that.

They want Oregon State on this side, Notre Dame on this side. They don't want to intermingle. So, you know, they think they're better than us. We're going to show these guys. And so we went into the game. Like, it was like they really thought they were better than us. It's kind of what we're going through now. It's like they went to Notre Dame, this prestige school.

Here we are at all the Oregon. and state, and I really think they thought they were better than us. And so, watching their tape, it was like, they're not going to do anything in our defense. And that's what made us good. It wasn't all, which we're going to put a point up, but our defense was so dominant because they were so fast. And it was just one of those things. Like, we're probably going to blow these guys up.

Like, literally, guys had bets, like, who was going to get NPP. And nobody really played the second half because it was a blowout. And we're live here outside the Perez family home. Just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry.

Looks like Dad has the bag's daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and there are. off. Ah, but looks like

Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at

NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and

see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest

near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts.

Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. You know, it's interesting. At the time, did you know, like, I'm sure people told you stories. But, like, you didn't grow up playing football, and though you were a fan of sports, wasn't like you really, did you know traditionally how bad Oregon State was and how amazing what you guys were a part of was? I mean, you know?

Looking back on it now, yes, at the time, no. My first year there, I was pretty much injured the whole year. But that was the first win in season, Oregon State had had in 30-plus years. years. And they made a huge deal about it, but any athlete would say, wherever we go, we think we're going to win. And so going to Oregon State, people are like, why are you going to Oregon State when you can go to USC? Why are you going to Arkansas when you can go here? I'm going to our state when you can go here. And that was just my mindset. If we all go here, all these guys that I played against

and Juko that I believe you really play. Yeah, I mean, by the way, you guys outgained Notre Dame, 446 to 155. They had 17 yards rushing. And that was that man like our deep, but we had just the, we probably had like seven dudes off that defense playing NFL. Maybe more. Dennis Weathersby,

Terrell Roberts, may you rest in peace, DeLorenz, DeLan Edwards, Richard Siegler, Nick Barnett, James Allen. That's seven.

And they know, like we had, and I'm not talking about just playing a year or two. Like, we had a lot of guys from that defense. Medearius Jackson, that's eight. We had a lot of guys played a long time,

and the NFL that played on that defense, and so bread was butter. We were very good and very fast on defense. So you get drafted in the seventh round. What was it like leading up to the NFL draft in terms of your own personal expectations? I was just training with Coach C. Me and a chat.

That's it. Nobody else, us three. People will come here, come train with us every movement, what the workouts were so hard. It wasn't made for them. can take it. And so my expectations, you know, training, again, what did I say?

I thought Chad was the best receiver I'd ever seen. So training with him every day. He's pushing me. I'm pushing him. He's making me better. Me pushing him is making him better, but me watching him is making me better. And so it was just us every day. Co-see is timing us in the 40.

I'm like, oh, I really thought I was going to get drafted. I had been running extremely fast 40s. always been a good athlete. I was fast my entire life until I got to NFL. So I wasn't worried about the testing part of it. I just wanted an opportunity, especially when you see guys that are supposed to get drafted high

come train with you and they can't do half the things you're doing. You're like, oh, I'm for sure going to get drafted high because I just train with this guy. They got him as one of the top receivers in the draft and you just don't know what you don't know. You think because you see this guy and you know how you move

and you know how he moves. It's going to pay off for you. And I was really naive to the whole process of how it worked. Piss me off, but it is what it is. I mean, it still bothers me to this day, really. I might even allow to you. Okay, what part of it makes you piss you off the most? When I'm like, when I train with guys that were drafted, like, if you look at the first round, I can name every receiver drafted in the first round. And only two of them, in my opinion, had solid careers. Really good careers.

Actually, I can't even say solid. Very good careers. And it was six receivers drafted in the first round my year. David Trerell, Corrin Robinson, Rodg Gardner, Santana Moss, Freddie Mitchell, Reggie Wayne.

Only two of them had really good careers. Reggie Wayne had a great career. Santana Moss had a very good career. Those other four and no disrespect to those guys. It did happen. And so, I mean, Steve Smith was drafted in the third round. He came out our year as well.

And so it was just one of those things where, but a lot of it is my mindset, my work ethic. If you want some, you got to work to get it. You got to work. And I'm just a firm believer in that. And so that's all I did was work, work, work, work, work, work, work. You get drafted in the seventh round. How did you make the team? My mindset was this was, I remember this like it was yesterday, the first practice.

And granted, I got into a fight, my first practice in the NFL mini camp, got in the fight. I went out to that first practice, and people don't remember this. The Bengals drafted Peter Ward was the fourth pick the year prior to myself and Chad getting drafted to Bengals. And so, in my opinion, Peter Work and Reggie Bush are the two best college football players I've ever seen. So I was excited. I walk off the field the first day of practice and I said to myself

got on the phone with my girlfriend who's now my wife oh I'm making this team I'm the best receiver owner I probably wasn't but I damn sure thought I was after that first practice

and so I was not concerned but I knew I had to work but my mindset was after that first practice there's nobody better to be on this team at receiver so I'm going to be fine and I believe

having that mindset those positive thought when I trained my gods today we train the physical but we trained them into as well. It took you. Your first two years were okay.

Your team was terrible. It was a mess. Your third year, you're injured so you barely played. It wasn't until really your fourth year in the league that you made it, right? And so I know in your mind, like, you had 41 catches your second year, and that's pretty good. But to go all of a sudden become a 70. Those are all.

We're getting our breath kicked. Let's throw T. T.J. in the game. And so, you know, you get them all. in the fourth quarter. Okay, so what change? Number one, I was healthy. I started doing yoga.

Marvin Lewis and Hugh Jackson gave me an opportunity, which is all I wanted. Marvin's first year was my third year. Again, like you said, I was hurt, and he basically let me know. You can be hurt again. He was always came at the club and the tub, and the biggest thing for me was

I met a guy named Martin Matchard, started doing yoga with him and my health I believe I was like one of the first guys in the NFL doing yoga and I talked about at a time because I didn't have any more muscle problems after that until the end of my career

when I stopped doing yoga like an idiot and so the yoga helped me Peter Warwick had a slight fracture in his leg in the New York Jets game he had to come out, miss some weeks and I got an opportunity to play and never came out of his lineup What why was like okay I we all know Carson Palmer's better than John Kittna

okay we and in John Kittin obviously now I think an offense coordinator with the Cowboys right or no quarterback coach with the Cowboys okay but for people who like okay Carson Palmer remember he sat the year you were hurt he sat he redshirted that first year and then the year you blew up it was with Carson Palmer who started I think 13 of those games in his second year. What was it about you and Carson that allowed both your careers to take off at that moment? For me, it was opportunity, but it was traditionally unspoken. I think he saw that I really knew what I was doing, that I understood the offense, because we, we, the same offense when Marlon came in, he kept Bob McCrowski as the O.C., and so the offense were the same,

and our offense wasn't easy. It was complicated. It was a lot of the same. It was a lot of it. It was complicated. We had to know the protection. We had to know who they were ID in as the mic. We had to know who the back was blocking. If it was a mask protection, a stab protect. Like, we had to know all it is. And as a quarterback, when you know a receiver sees what you see, and if they're blitzing, I'm going to break hot.

And if I don't, the quarterback's going to get hit in the back. He saw that I was breaking hot when I wasn't supposed to because it was Chad's responsibility. And people always, how did you go from this amount of catches to the, because of this amount of catches when I saw they were blitzing so I would break hot for Carson to give him an outlet and he started to see that and I wasn't even a hot guy

it was always the extra receiver which was chaffed we ended up changing it to me and me and Carson we were just on the same page we had that unspoken bond of we're seeing the game from the same set of eyes and so right he just saw that early on and he just started I'm not to me.

It was times when they give us this coverage, run this route. If they played this, run this route, we would just kind of make things up on a fly during the game. We trusted that I was going to see what he was seeing, and it worked out. You know, it's amazing is, I don't know. You're part of the turnaround Oregon State, and then the turnaround with the Bengals. They were the bungles before you guys got there. You finally get to the playoffs, right? This is like your, what was it, your fifth year in the NFL?

You guys get to the playoffs? Right? Carson signs the biggest contract in the history of the sport, and then Kimo Van Olhoffin rolls up on his leg. What do you remember about? It was crazy because Carson and Chris Henry both got hurt on the same plate. First played the game. Our O.C., Coach Brad, we're going to attack him first play the game.

So they play a single high coverage, which Pittsburgh does. But normally their corner's stay over the top, we don't bomb him with Slim. Chris Henry made you rest of the beat. Carson threw a goal out to Slim. Slim Bomb. them caught the ball, and they both get hurt. Initially, you didn't realize it because you're so excited the adrenaline hauled playoff game.

You don't, you know, he's down. You think he's going to come back in a game. When you see him bring the card out and you're like, oh, my God. But we all have confidence in Kittenden. Like Kittner can play. People don't, we're winning that game at halftime. We're up. And so we still should have won the game, but.

Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the Amman. internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls,

we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations

with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough.

Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her.

What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Carson doesn't get hurt. I truly believe we're the best team in league. I believe we would have won a football because if I'm not mistaken I believe that's the year

Pittsburgh went on to beat Seattle nobody could stop us but if you played single high defense against us and our offense if you watch football we talked about this our offense wasn't a gimmicky offense we didn't stack guys

we didn't go in motion we lined up you played single high defense for people that are listening that's one take in the middle cover one or cover three me and Chad were going to kill you. And if you play too high, some type of invert or two-man, whatever it may be, we would just run the ball.

And we were good enough. Where we got open all the time in man coverage, and if you sold us up, we were good enough up front with our offensive line that we could run the ball on you. And so it was like a pick-your-poison type of thing, and you could never be right, because me and Chad could always get open,

and for the most part, we could always run the ball. If you could change one thing about your NFL career, what would it be? I guess that I would have been on a team. I could have won more. Towards the end of my career, I could have done more. For me personally, I wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have talked as much. And it's more, when I say talk as much, I want to win so bad, and I'm so competitive that I think it, when I was in Seattle, like I think I had a reputation of

being like this bad locker room guy when I can't maybe I'm wrong you guys any team that I ever had they all love me at least I think they do I've always been a team leader um every team I've been on guys congregate around my locker I don't know why they just did um but I had a reputation I think in the circle of coaches that I wasn't good for a locker room or team and part of that was my fault well, not part of it. All of it was my fault because I would go talk to coaches, and I would challenge them, I'm like, why are we doing this when they're doing this against a shit?

And you can't challenge coaches. They're spending an enormous crazy amount of time preparing a game plan, and here I am, there's a Rudy Poo-ass player, and I'm going to question your game plan, and I did that, and I shouldn't have done that. I was wrong for that. But at the time, it was my competitiveness. I'm just trying to win.

They should be open to my ideas. And that just wasn't a good thing. I remember playing in Seattle. I told Matt Houselbeck, man, let's go talk to Greg Napp about what we're doing. And Matt Houselbeck straight up told me, he was like, it's not going to change anything. T.J. I play long enough.

They're not going to change it, so we just live with the game plan and we try to execute it. And I didn't like that answer, but he was 100% correct. I'm like, let's see if we can get it changed instead of trying to live with it. and I went to try to get a change, and I did that probably too much, and it was stupid of me, and just waiting to learn. That's probably the thing that I would change.

I would just be a player and try to be the best player that I can, and don't try to be a coach, because I'm not spending the time they spend, that's why I went wrong. I don't even necessarily think it's that. Look, I learned that in broadcasting. You know, I learned that in broadcasting,

and I learned that a little bit in coach. I didn't do enough. I thought I'm on the opposite when I was a player in college. I should have done more of it, you know, basketball IQ, I should have had more open conversations. But when you get to, like in broadcasting, I have offered up my opinion, sometimes solicited, many times unsolicited.

And it just never goes over well because guys that are, you know, guys that are in charge in TV that's finally their chance to make a decision and you're questioning it. Even if you have like, like you said, like look, your intentions, I just want to win football game. It's not necessarily about me. And when you're doing a, you know, in terms of doing TV stuff, it's not all about you. I'll give me an example, okay? So I was doing the, I did the NBA draft on radio for a decade.

And about, I don't know, halfway through maybe seven years in, I went to the guy who originally had hired me and I said, hey, can I, I have an idea, or I sent maybe an email. Like here's just an idea. You guys, and even in the email, I shouldn't have said it probably in an email, but I don't know why that matters, but it does matter. and you know Ryan Rassillo is, right? Yes.

Okay. So Ricillo, at the time, wasn't who he is now. He was a guy who covered the Celtics. He was a fill-in guy. He loved Hoop. And he watched more hoop than even I did. Okay? I don't, that doesn't necessarily mean he broke it down the way I did, but he knew people in the league.

He did all the work whenever. So I said, look, you hire like three or four guys to do the NBA draft. And they're all great guys. Okay. But college guys don't know the pro game and pro guy. pro guys don't know the college guys, right? So it's a flawed premise to have all these guys commenting on players they don't know or teams that they don't know or the league that they don't know.

What if you just had me and Rosillo do the NBA. We both are professional radio guys. We both know the sport. We both know college, both no pro. We both talk to people. We can break stories and we can both interview. I was like, and oh yeah, by the way, I'm already on a contract. It doesn't cost me a penny.

I'm already on the show. It doesn't change anything. I'm not saying fire anybody. I'm just saying like, look, instead of hiring three people, just, you already have Rissilo. Pay them a day, right? And there you go. And the response that I met with, then I was taking off the draft for like two months. And then like, I had to go to one of the bosses like, this is crazy.

And it turns out it's because the boss at the time was like, who the fuck are you trying to tell us what we should do? And I was like, look, man, I'm already on the, I was already on the draft. I was just trying to help and be a better, but that's the way shit happens. Okay, Carson Palmer or Joe Flacco Matt Hasselback. Oh, that's easy. Carson. Like, Carson was, and he was one of the better quarterbacks to ever play in NFL. He'll never get that acknowledgement.

He'll never get that because we didn't win enough. He was a fantastic athlete that people didn't realize. he was a great athlete because he sat in the pocket. But if he wanted to move around, he had the athleticism to move around. If he wanted to, great arm, tremendous. So, like, the entire team loved Carson because he exuded just, I'm one of the guys type attitude, and guys gravitated to him. And he didn't have to force you to.

It was just natural for him. Like, we would have parties, team parties. and Carson comes to every one. You don't, A, nine, you're coming? You know he's coming. And so he just, he did what you want quarterbacks to do, and it came natural form. And it could be because he was a quarterback his entire life.

He, it was ingrained in him. He knew what to do. I don't know, but, oh, yeah, it's not even close. Not even close, in my opinion. And that's no disrespect to House of Beck and Flacco, but again, I spent a lot of time with Carson. I was only with each of those guys a year. Last thing, guy.

I mean, because no background is more different than you and Carson Palmer, right? Like he grows up, South Orange County, private school, superstar high school, college, Heisman, number one pick, right? But your story, my look, you had, I mean, and Cedric Benson's passed away, obviously, Chris Henry passed away. Like, you have, the story of you guys with the Bengals was a lot of, there's a lot of chances taken there. If I may, whether it's basketball, football, coach, executive, whatever, how do I, how do I determine when I look at your back? Because you and I've got to know each other for 15 years now, right?

how do I like you part of it is like we do this background check and we find out who and they're like whoa whoa whoa what we didn't graduate high school you know wait what he was doing what and there are people that will not give you that shot because of your life as a kid and your upbringing which has nothing to do with you

um racism I mean really to be honest that's what it is I don't know if it is racism though I think I think it's there's socioeconomic Right, and because of my socioeconomic background is the reason why, I don't know if I would want to give them a chance, but if I come from a low-income neighborhood, or if I come from a middle-class or high-end neighborhood, why should it matter? Because I think the concern is... You sit down and you meet with a guy?

Yeah. At least I... You can tell if a guy's genuine. You can tell if a guy is trying to run game on you, as we say. You see right through that. You see right, like, bro, you're not hustling me. You see, at least I can. And so for me, it was just a part of my childhood.

And again, and I've had people tell me once I started to play, yeah, I thought you were a thug. Like, we were going to even take a chance on you. Like, had scouts and coaches tell me that. Yeah. Once I established myself, I'm like, wow, really. And I get it. I get it.

Your job's on the line. Nobody wants to lose their job over one guy, and if you're wrong, I mean, I get it. But how do you handle that? You would hope the meetings and just getting to know a guy. But, again, they only do that for the top 30 or 40, 50 guys, man. Other than that, I don't believe it matters to them. Well, I mean, but I would say like, you know, the where could it go wrong is the Chris Henry thing, right? I mean, like, Chris Henry had all this off the field stuff that took away from the fact that he was a spectacular talent on the field.

You have kind of the three levels to it. Like, you know, Chad, who is really, as you point out, a quiet dude, but when the camera's on, you know, he has no problem, you know, kind of turning it up. And he's, he had some off the field stuff, which probably caused the early termination to his career. career. You had nothing, right? And then you had Chris Henry, which obviously, you know, he tragically dies. And I think that's the fear, right? The fear is that a guy with what would be called a questionable background goes to Chris Henry route as opposed to what happens to you, where you become kind of synonymous with like, this is what you want a pro to be. And that's a hard thing to determine if you're a general manager. And I'm just wondering when you're trying to

assess and evaluate who somebody really is, take away the. background, you think, like, just meeting with the dude is the way to do it. I mean, it's tough. You can meet with a guy. You don't have a lot of time. You can have phone conversations. I don't know if you can ever make this an exact size to where I got this one nailed. I just don't believe that's the case.

And, again, my situation to be, it was luck. Like, how did I didn't play sports growing up. I don't graduate from high school. I played my senior year. Like, I don't know how I made it really to be. I like this. I just worked hard as hell.

I worked harder than everybody. And people that are trained with me, they know this. But it has to be more to it than that. I'm just lucky that it worked out for me. And there's so many cases. mind that aren't lucky. It doesn't work out for them. I'm very aware of that. I'm very thankful because where would I be? What would I be doing? Consider my mother had four kids and only one of us graduated the youngest one. None of them have done anything in life to the point where

the parents you'd say, ah, that's my son or that's my daughter because school. wasn't emphasized. It was being the streets or whatever. Like that's, it was just, it wasn't emphasized in our family. That's all I do with my kids. They probably are, they probably like, shut up, TJ. Like, hey, come on here, do this homework. You better get 100 on this.

You better get A. Like, that's all I do is emphasize school to my kids. And if you're going to play sports, oh, you're just going to have a lot of work to do. And we're going to work at your game. But, yeah, there's no exact science to this. It's a feel for it. understanding people if they're trying to game you and hope you make the right decision, really, to be honest,

when you say it like that, there's really no way, Doug, to figure out who's the right guy and who isn't from a mental perspective, from a social perspective, and we're not even talking about getting on a field of playing football or the court playing basketball. Last thing. Jordan or LeBron?

Oh, man. Do I really have to answer that? You can say whatever you want to? to say. You don't have to pick. Me personally, me personally, for my generation, it's easy, Michael Jordan. No question.

But if I look at it now, I didn't like the ball. I was a Laker fan, so I hated Michael Jordan, because it seemed like he never missed. But when you look at it now, like this generation, they're going to say LeBron. LeBron scores. He rebounds.

He passes the ball. Oh, damn, how old is LeBron? Like, LeBron is playing at a high level every single year of his career. And so to answer that question, if I have to be honest and impartial, I truly would say LeBron, to be honest with you. Just because every team, when LeBron leaves at Cleveland, Cavaliers, what happened? They're in a lottery. LeBron leaves the Miami Heat? What happens?

know if they're in the lottery. If they made the playoffs, they're eliminating the first round. If you leave the cabs again, oh, they're in a lottery. Michael Jordan left the Bulls. They still made the playoffs. LeBron means so much to a team. Looking at it, and partially, I would probably say, overall basketball player, LeBron score Michael Jordan, even though LeBron scoring-wise is close. The best defensive back you ever fail, who is the guy? Champ Bailey. What made him so good?

Lately, but then he could... Champ was big, and he was quick, and he was fast, and he didn't talk no shit. Like, you can't even get Champ to talk shit to you. But I'm going to give you a name. I'll give you two names that never get credit. And me personally, I thought they were good. Maybe they just gave me a hard time.

I don't know. Okay, fair enough. Lee Bodden, you never heard of him, huh? I've heard Leibodon. Lee Bodden, a dog, straight up to play. big, fast, physical, Lee Biden can play. And then,

I'll give you two more. Ike Taylor was pretty good in Pittsburgh. I thought he was good, never got a lot of credit. He's a guy that talked shit, he talked it right back. He can go on all game. And I actually thought Cortland Finnegan was pretty good.

A smaller guy, feisty, had to compete. But those three, but Chad Baby, he was the best DB that I played against, but tons of respect for Lee Bonham. and Ike Taylor for sure. All right, you're a major shit talker,

so that means you have to step up here. Who's the guy who gets lots of respect and people talk about how good he was and he really wasn't very good? To you. At what position? The guy you matched up with cornerback. Oh, what quarterback do they think?

Corner. Corner. Corner. Oh, DB. DB. D.B. Oh, man. That's a tough.

Give me a DB that people think is good. What's good. Well, I mean, I guess you got to go like in your, like Lee Bodden was in your division, right, with Cleveland, right? Oh, but he was good, but honestly, like we, like I, Doug, this is it a lot, man. We didn't go on motion. Me and Chad were like, we got open. We ran routes.

No, no, I, I, listen, I understand. All those names are named, we still killed him. No, no, I, I, I got you. I got you. I'm just saying. I'm trying to, I can't think of any corners in our division, because Baltimore had Chris McAllister, Gary Baxter, we killed them. The Steelers probably did the best against us, but we killed them.

And the Browns, yeah, we killed them. I'm trying to think. I mean, because we played the Raiders. I never forget it. We played the Raiders. Marvin Lewis was talking trashed to me and Chad the whole week. That's when they had non-Di-Aa-Wa. Yeah.

And a little fast dude, what's his name? Fast dude went to Nebraska. He's from Florida. with Bradenton or Pensacola, I can't even think of his name. Brownskin, dude, I can't think of his name right now. But all they did was play man-to-man. Me and Chad had a hundred yards at a half-time.

Got a hundred yards at a half-time, both of us. Why didn't Chad work in New England? They're locking them up. Why didn't Chad work? Why didn't Chad work in New England? Why didn't that work? We had been in the same system forever. I think going to New England might have been a shock for him.

Chad played X. From the time he got drafted to the Bengals, to the time he left. Then going to New England, it was just different. And also, it's well documented. I helped Chad a ton in Cincinnati.

And so if there was any question on what he was the run, I just told him. And so he got used to that. Chad is my partner. Like, I love that dude like a brother. And so Oregon State, Cincinnati, anytime we're on the field and he looked like he didn't know what he was doing, I just told him.

No second thoughts. I want to win. You one of the best reviews ever see. in my life. You can help us win. I'm going to help you because you're my brother. And so it could be, it was just a little much for him. The comfort level, it was different. You get, I mean, you're in a marriage for 10 years and you get used to doing things a certain way. You get a new girlfriend and things change. You've got to get adjusted to it. Football, there's no adjustment. You've got to adjust now a shoot-all play. And so it would have to be

the system. It wasn't, for sure, wasn't physical. Yeah, no, he lined up in the wrong spot. He struggled to, you know, Brady and him didn't, you know, he was also a guy who kind of went by feel, and that's not how they play there, right? They didn't deviate from whatever the deal was. That is so gifted, man. It's like, he's like a basketball player.

Oh, you want to run this play? No, give me the ball clear out. And he would improvise on his route. He would run the right route, but it would be a lot of improvisation going into it. and the quarterback, you know, he wants to see if I got a dig route, you're going to get up the field, break 18 yards, I want the ball to be caught before the hash, two to four yards outside of the numbers or inside of the numbers.

And Chad is going to do that, but it's everything before that that the quarterback and the OC probably don't like. But creating separation, he can do that, but yeah, it sucked because Chad is one of the, the best receivers ever playing football and he'll never get that credit. No question. Anybody, no question is talent-wise, it ain't close, bro. I've seen them all.

It ain't close. Who's great stuff, man. I appreciate what you're doing in the sports world, you know, in teaching, coaching wide receivers as well, teaching guys that, you know, about work ethic and your own children about going to school. Thanks so much for joining us, and I can't wait for someone to make a movie on your story. Hey, Doug, I appreciate you, brother. Take care.

See you tomorrow, me. Perfect. I wish I got to run. Thanks, dude. Take care. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. All right, that's, that's T.J. Hushman Zad.

I, look, I still disagree with him on Jordan and LeBron. And I do think that the younger generation likes LeBron because they've seen LeBron and they've maybe forgotten how dominant Jordan was. but, you know, I think especially after the last dance, I'm even more of a Jordan guy. That said, it's a great perspective. Hey, I hope you enjoyed that interview, a little bit different, not a ton of basketball, but as we've done on this podcast, we tell people's kind of life tale of how they got to where they are now. Hope you enjoyed it.

Remember the download to subscribe and to rate it because I think somebody gets more money. I don't if you do so. In the meantime, listen to the Doug Gottlieb show Daily 3 to 6 Eastern, 12-3 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, the IHart Radio app or wherever you download podcast where you ever listen to Terrestrial Radio like Fox Sports Radio. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all ball. Whether you're a student interested in green energy, looking for a great new career, or a seasoned building professional

who wants more knowledge about energy efficiency, here's your opportunity to fuel your future. PG&E's Energy Centers offer more than 500 free online classes, get practical insights, continuing education credits, and prepare for a range of certifications from industry experts through live webinars or over 80 on-demand classes. Enroll at pge.com slash training. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where sports slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode

we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends

on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at a podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year,

unpack what went down and try to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the iHeard radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.